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Wednesday, November 18, 2015

The shadow spreads

They will never give credit where credit is due. But it truly doesn't matter. The viral ideas spread. Even into enemy territory like the New York Times. And we know from whence they came:
It’s easy to think that ISIS is some sort of evil, medieval cancer that somehow has resurfaced in the modern world. The rest of us are pursuing happiness, and here comes this fundamentalist anachronism, spreading death.

But in his book “Not in God’s Name: Confronting Religious Violence,” the brilliant Rabbi Jonathan Sacks argues that ISIS is in fact typical of what we will see in the decades ahead.

The 21st century will not be a century of secularism, he writes. It will be an age of desecularization and religious conflicts....

Sacks emphasizes that it is not religion itself that causes violence. In their book Encyclopedia of Wars, Charles Phillips and Alan Axelrod surveyed 1,800 conflicts and found that less than 10 percent had any religious component at all.
Actually, the correct numbers are 1,763 wars and 6.98 percent, half of which involved Islam. And, of course, Phillips and Axelrod didn't actually do any such calculation....

Labels:

88 Comments:

Anonymous Soga November 18, 2015 4:19 PM  

I call this the Century of Now-We-Know-Why-The-Crusades-Happened.

Next up, Now-We-Know-Why-The-Inquisition-Happened.

Blogger The Reactionary November 18, 2015 4:19 PM  

White man, better bring a functioning religion to the holy wars

Blogger John Wright November 18, 2015 4:24 PM  

Congratulations, Supreme Dark Lord! They say inaccurate plagiarism is the sincerest form of flattery.

This is one more human heart of victory to adorn your quauhxicalli bowl atop your ziggurat of glory.

Blogger White Knight Leo #0368 November 18, 2015 4:28 PM  

I had an argument with someone on FB last night about the refugees.

I said "Do you want Trump to be elected?"
She said "No, of course not".
I responded "If we let these refugees in, and there's an attack between now and the GOP primary that is linked to any of them, not only will Trump be the nominee, he will win the election. So be careful what you wish for."

I've said before that I don't want Trump, and while it's largely because he has many leftwing policy positions, it's also because he's a lot less dignified than I like my leaders. That said, I'll vote for him if he becomes the nominee, or if it's a choice between him and Rubio. All the people still running for the GOP are better than anyone on the other side on pretty much every issue, and Trump is good enough on immigration that it makes up for a lot of his leftwing positions.

But I figure that it's the same thing here. The secularists had their chance to run things, and what they showed people is that they were by turns unreliable Polyannas or else power-hungry, mendacious would-be tyrants who were constrained by no moral code. They had their chance to show people that secularism was a good idea, but it backfired.

I'm not Christian, but I did find a recurring theme in my historical studies that would-be royal tyrants in the Middle Ages could be brought to heel by the Church, in a pinch, forced to do penance or otherwise be publicly humiliated in order to retain the public acceptance of their rule that they needed. That's actually quite a powerful check on a group of people who were otherwise hard to check.

Whether it's one of religious origins or not, people do need a moral code. It needs to be explicit and well-thought-out, or else it leaves all kinds of room for them to make compromise after compromise until it means nothing. Christianity serves that purpose well; it's not just defined in someone's head, but externally. People can notice when someone is violating their professed faith, and call them out on it.

It's not the answer I want, but it does work.

Anonymous John Doe November 18, 2015 4:33 PM  

Why would he emphasis that it isn't religion itself that causes violence, when he also states this will be a century of religious conflicts? Because either religion can cause violence, in which case this next century could be one of desecularization and religious conflicts, or it doesn't cause violence and so no conflicts shall arise.

Blogger Lovekraft November 18, 2015 4:37 PM  

I don't care what sjws, blacklivesmatter, jihad wants to do with their own lives. It is when they rub up against mine (culture, history, moral code) that problems emerge.

Christianity is presented as a type of salve to calm the angry and disenfranchised in order to prevent violence. What people fail to see, however, is the truth of Christ's message is the productive one, not jihad, lynchmob or judicial tyranny.

Anonymous John Doe November 18, 2015 4:37 PM  

Should read "Why would he emphasize..".

Blogger Emmanuel Mateo-Morales November 18, 2015 4:41 PM  

What's the title of the book of yours that features research about religion's role in war, or was it one of your articles back when you were a columnist?

Blogger Lovekraft November 18, 2015 4:46 PM  

to elaborate: our society, the world is presented in the Bible as under the domain (temporarily) of the great deceiver. So that said, it is pointless to live according to the world's beliefs, as doing so would result in eternal damnation, not to mention the myriad of psychological harms it would do.

The advantage of following Christ is one has this rock to stand on, stronger than any one man. And sure, standing high tends to make one a target, but better that than among the mob.

Anonymous PhillipGeorge©2015 November 18, 2015 4:48 PM  

secularists believe in something that doesn't exist. Let's really talk irrational.

better bring a functioning religion to a Holy War. This blog pointed out one of my errors in a very big way: The Judeo-Christian meme. The whole of the Tanakh is a Christian book, Jesus wrote it.

The war lords, "regime" of rabbinical Judaism has done more damage to Christianity than Islam. It could be argued Islam was always too stupid to do as much damage as it has all on it's own.

Insults save lives. my slogan of the day

Anonymous Zion's Paladin (VFM #122) November 18, 2015 4:52 PM  

What's the title of the book of yours that features research about religion's role in war, or was it one of your articles back when you were a columnist?

It's the Irrational Atheist.

Blogger John Wright November 18, 2015 4:55 PM  

"The war lords, "regime" of rabbinical Judaism has done more damage to Christianity than Islam."

Here is a map showing the battles taking place in the Iberian Penninsula. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_To-cV94Bo

How are you counting Jewish efforts against Christianity such that these battles do not outnumber them? Aside from the Jewish cooperation with the Roman authorities during the persecution of Diocletian, I cannot recall a single act of war by Jews against Christians.

I assume you are speaking of some other form of harm aside from, you know, the harmful kind.

Blogger Bluntobj Winz November 18, 2015 4:56 PM  

@6

This is where the productive men (and christianity) have to reconcile that in order to be productive there must be annihilation of those that are collectivists and facists, or the unproductive.

The settlement of America is a fine example of this. Outside threats could be used to keep a culture and religion strong, but when those threats vanished, or were brought inside the border, weakness and decay could be the only result.

This is why expulsion of Islam is required. We do not have to destroy it, but should keep it around to act as that outside threat to maintain strength of purpose. Note that the current creation of islamic terrorism by the US does not fall within the scope of this idea.

Blogger Dave November 18, 2015 4:59 PM  

Someday sometime somewhere somebody will correctly attribute that statistic.

Anonymous Logan November 18, 2015 5:00 PM  

This might sound like a dick thing to say but in a way it might be better that The Encyclopedia of Wars is referenced as the source of this statistic instead of TIA. If TIA was referenced, a lot of people would be dismissive of the stat given how many people hate Vox and how controversial he is. But if TEoW is referenced instead, people (especially people on the Left) will be much more willing to take the stat seriously. "The Encyclopedia of Wars" sounds very serious and academic, as opposed to "The Irrational Atheist".

Not saying Vox doesn't deserve the credit for it which he does, just saying there are practical, even utilitarian reasons for preferring TEoW being cited. But then, that might be a dick thing to say.

Blogger Rabbi B November 18, 2015 5:00 PM  

@10 PhillipGeorge

" . . . rabbinical Judaism has done more damage to Christianity than Islam."

Rabbinical Judaism has for the most part simply ignored Christianity. I would like to understand how Rabbinical Judaism has "damaged" Christianity.

Blogger White Devil November 18, 2015 5:04 PM  

The Reactionary
White man, better bring a functioning religion to the holy wars
Teenagers apparently cut on themselves to appease their dark messiah, Justin Bieber.

Blogger Cee November 18, 2015 5:06 PM  

@15

"They will never give credit where credit is due. But it truly doesn't matter." Doubt it can be a dick thing to say if the guy you're saying it to doesn't care he's not getting credited in the first place.

Anonymous 334 November 18, 2015 5:08 PM  

that might be a dick thing to say

Well, you've found the ideal place to say it. Yesterday we were agreeing that slavery had a civilizing effect on blacks ... try getting away with that anywhere else.

Blogger Dave November 18, 2015 5:14 PM  

Well there is that thing about correctly citing sources but then this is the NYT.

Blogger White Devil November 18, 2015 5:17 PM  

334
Well, you've found the ideal place to say it. Yesterday we were agreeing that slavery had a civilizing effect on blacks ... try getting away with that anywhere else.
Some of the progressives are openly anti-civilization. They'd believe you were citing a grievance against the white man.

Decolonizing Your Mind is a phrase that, used by the African National Congress, once meant discarding your racial/tribal identities in favor of a national one, to rebuild the country in cooperation. Now, on our own university campuses, the phrase means shedding history, philosophy and science to embrace twerking. (Zero exaggeration.)

It's amazing what one can do with words.

Anonymous BigGaySteve November 18, 2015 5:25 PM  

“And when they behead your own people in the wars, which are to come, then you will know what this was all about.” — Slobodan Milosevic

I call this the Century of Now-We-Know-Why-The-Crusades-Happened.Next up, Now-We-Know-Why-The-Inquisition-Happened.

Are you kidding me, when I tell people moslems have been kicked out of Europe twice before, the same people that think its ok to have a black queen of England on a show think it never happened. Tours, Charles Martel, Gates of Vienna, and Vlad "the impaler" Tepes are disbelieved

Blogger Mr.MantraMan November 18, 2015 5:26 PM  

Write the NYTs a tersely worded email about their plagiary. Then re post it here and tell the world that Johnny Con has never been plagiarized by the NYTs because he is freaking stoopid.

Anonymous John Doe November 18, 2015 5:27 PM  

Vox are you saying the Encyclopedia of Wars does not contain the information of percentage of wars caused by religion at all? If so why have articles as far back as 2012, that was all I found after a quick search, been contributing this info to that book?

Blogger Giuseppe The Kurgan November 18, 2015 5:34 PM  

@15. Logan,
I understand what you mean, but I'd say yes, it is a dick thing to say because that is how the slippery slope of progressivism to millions of deaths begins. With a lie.

Even if Vox ate the hearts of babies, if he said 2+2 is 4 and no one else before him knew this, the correct thing to do is say, Vox Day, the heartless eater of baby hearts, may he rot in hell for all eternity, was the first to discover that 2+2 is 4.

In a way I think SJWAL is too long and formal a set of laws (when you take all 3) for defining SJWs too. The main difference between the scum of the Earth and the rest of us is their utter inability to care about the factual objective truth. SJWs Always lie is really the only law and all of the law, that is why it is such a brilliant title.

Anonymous PhillipGeorge©2015 November 18, 2015 5:38 PM  

I cannot recall a single act of war by Jews against Christians.
thankyou Rabbi, John Wright

By Way of Deception - Mossad's motto.\ We talk a lot here about 4G war. Not nation states with defined borders waging open wars for territory.

the USS Liberty is the tip of an iceberg if only in search of many many metaphors/ similitudes/ illustrations. The name of the ship, like the broken liberty bell says so very much.

The combined assault on Christendom has suffered more through all the undercover "putsch", banking and lawfare, the ADL dual citizenships, just other iceberg tips..... .

Blogger Rabbi B November 18, 2015 5:46 PM  

@26 PhillipGeorge

The combined assault on Christendom has suffered more through all the undercover "putsch", banking and lawfare, the ADL dual citizenships, just other iceberg tips..... .

I guess that's where you lose me. You specifically stated Christianity . . . when I hear Christianity I assume you mean the religion or the movement. I think the same when you mention Rabbinic Judaism. Two religions. I understand your assertion to mean that Rabbinic Judaism, the religion, has somehow harmed Christianity the religion.

I am not seeing the connection between the things you cited (i.e. banking, dual citizenship, USS Liberty, etc.) and the assault on Christianity by Rabbinic Judaism.

Blogger Cataline Sergius November 18, 2015 5:49 PM  

This guy is my new favorite Muslim.

Sorry Tommy.

It's like a bad Monty Python sketch:

"We did this because our holy texts exhort us to to do it."

"No you didn't."

"Wait, what? Yes we did..."

"No, this has nothing to do with religion. You guys are just using religion as a front for social and geopolitical reasons."

"WHAT!? Did you even read our official statement? We give explicit Quranic justification. This is jihad, a holy crusade against pagans, blasphemers, and disbelievers."

"No, this is definitely not a Muslim thing. You guys are not true Muslims, and you defame a great religion by saying so."

"Huh!? Who are you to tell us we're not true Muslims!?

Anonymous jSinSaTx November 18, 2015 5:49 PM  

Irrational Atheist was published in 2008. Vox cited that book as the source material he used for his calculation. Follow on people dropped Vox. Later people do as you did and see the encyclopedia and continue to cite it. I own that set. It individually reasons causes for each conflict, but there is no summary chart saying religion caused x%.

Blogger praetorian November 18, 2015 5:50 PM  

Whether it's one of religious origins or not, people do need a moral code.

Implying the words "need" and "moral code" make any sense at all without implying a religious origin.

Implying the train isn't fine.

Pro tip: don't bring halfwit pragmatism to a religious fight.

Blogger VD November 18, 2015 5:51 PM  

What's the title of the book of yours that features research about religion's role in war, or was it one of your articles back when you were a columnist?

The Irrational Atheist And before that, a column from 11 years ago.

Vox are you saying the Encyclopedia of Wars does not contain the information of percentage of wars caused by religion at all? If so why have articles as far back as 2012, that was all I found after a quick search, been contributing this info to that book?

Yes. It doesn't mention anything of the sort. Virtually no one has ever even seen the Encyclopedia; I have the three-volume set. I know because I counted up the wars, I did the calculations, and I presented the percentages in TIA back in 2008. I had previously done it based on a less complete list of wars back in 2004.

As to why, well, there are even right-wing media outlets that are absolutely determined not to give me any sort of platform. Something as important as this, which has appeared in Nature and other scientific journals, is not something they want to see me credited for. Notice how mainstream publications from Wired to NPR have devoted coverate to a single blog comment from 2013, but not my bestselling Political Philosophy book.

It doesn't matter. When you speak the truth, it comes out sooner or later. And with the help of you all, I am building my own platform.

Anonymous RedJack #22 November 18, 2015 5:52 PM  

Just got back from deer season.

What you just wrote is what a.. friend of mine who does interesting things suggested.

Blogger Cataline Sergius November 18, 2015 5:53 PM  

Sorry, link fixed.

Blogger Matamoros November 18, 2015 5:55 PM  

Here's an excellent video by Bill Warner:

Why We Are Afraid: 1400 years of Fear
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yl_rzkutijQ

@12 I cannot recall a single act of war by Jews against Christians.

Please read "The Plot Against the Church" written by clerics under the pen name of Maurice Pinay. Then you will know.

It is available for free here:

http://www.holywar.org/txt/pinay/default.htm

Blogger SteelPalm November 18, 2015 5:56 PM  

It takes a truly suicidal moron to perceive rabbinical Judaism as a greater threat than the Death Cult.

Oh well, keep ranting about the Jeeeewwwwsss while Muslims rape your mother and sister and stab you, Philip George. Not everyone gets to survive.

Blogger VD November 18, 2015 6:01 PM  

It takes a truly suicidal moron to perceive rabbinical Judaism as a greater threat than the Death Cult.

Not really. The one is an internal threat. The other is external. External threats are more dangerous to small countries. Internal threats are more dangerous to large empires.

Anonymous PhillipGeorge©2015 November 18, 2015 6:02 PM  

Rabbi, it's too much for a blog I suppose. Usury is a "thing" in banking. It's also a doctrine. It also exists in a legal, cultural, philosophical and religious context.
Who promotes it, how and why is a difference between Islam, Christianity and Judaism.

It's only one topic - at the edge of any discussion of war. Better to leave it alone today.

Blogger VD November 18, 2015 6:03 PM  

Oh well, keep ranting about the Jeeeewwwwsss while Muslims rape your mother and sister and stab you, Philip George. Not everyone gets to survive.

That rhetoric is not permitted here. If you have a genuine point, then make it. Rhetoric that involves nothing more than ridicule through silly pronunciation does nothing but make you look ridiculous.

Blogger VD November 18, 2015 6:09 PM  

It's only one topic - at the edge of any discussion of war. Better to leave it alone today.

Yes, this is not the time or the place for another exercise in willful blindness on both sides. The Jews are not responsible for every bad thing that has happened in the West since 1492. The Jews are also not a poor innocent people who ain't never done nothing to nobody.

If you subscribe to either perspective, you are a historical illiterate and are insulting everyone's intelligence, including the Jewish people's.

Blogger JDC November 18, 2015 6:12 PM  

Just got back from deer season.

How'd you do? I leave Friday for five blessed days of sitting in my blind, playing cards, drinking Glenlivet and taking in the barren wasteland known as the Upper Peninsula of MI. Hopefully there will also be the field dressing of one or two bucks.

Anonymous Takin' a Look November 18, 2015 6:22 PM  

@Vox Day

"Golf claps" may not be a hole in one, but definitely on the green. Babs just felt a chill up her spine in Sweden.

Blogger Dave November 18, 2015 6:22 PM  

"barren wasteland"

Oh no you've triggered the yoopers.

Blogger Silent Cal November 18, 2015 6:32 PM  

@33


Thank you Cataline Sergius. It would indeed make a perfect Monte Python sketch.

Anonymous BigGaySteve November 18, 2015 6:38 PM  

This guy is my new favorite Muslim.Sorry Tommy.


28 Page not found, the non existant moslem is my favorite aslo.

Blogger ajw308 (#98) November 18, 2015 6:40 PM  

I need a safe space.

Blogger praetorian November 18, 2015 6:49 PM  

I need a safe space.

The Hardest Working Podcast in Shoahbiz made an interesting point today: the modern SJW safe space argument is, actually, an argument for apartheid.

Anonymous PhillipGeorge©2015 November 18, 2015 7:19 PM  

ah, "shouldn't", too many late shifts in a lifetime of typos, time to take leave

Blogger VD November 18, 2015 7:28 PM  

What part of "drop it" did some of you find hard to understand?

Blogger Cataline Sergius November 18, 2015 7:40 PM  

@44 Big Gay Steve

I fixed the link @33

Anonymous WaterBoy November 18, 2015 8:04 PM  

JDC @ 40: " I leave Friday for five blessed days"

Good luck, and have fun sitting around up there in the yew pee.

Anonymous JRL November 18, 2015 8:32 PM  

I would like to reiterate, for the nth time, this blog is the shniz. That's yiddish for "Vox is da man..." Seriously. And the rest of you ilk too.

Blogger Groot November 18, 2015 8:39 PM  

@12. John Wright:

Thanks for that video. It was 5 minutes well spent.

Anonymous Toby Temple November 18, 2015 8:40 PM  

Vox. Maybe the VFM could help spread the word that you are the originator of "religion is not the major cause of wars"?

Blogger SciVo November 18, 2015 8:59 PM  

@ John Doe: There is no contradiction if violence is generally not caused by religion, and there is a religion that generally causes conflict. I wonder what it could be...

Blogger rumpole5 November 18, 2015 9:05 PM  

Spread the word? How could one miss it? VD went on and on about "religion not major war cause" for many posts and then about the inquisition not being a major murder operation. Any subject that interests him is covered in his delightfully peculiar manner, bordering on obsessive compulsive disorder. Anyone not crediting him is probably doing so deliberately.

Blogger SciVo November 18, 2015 9:10 PM  

@ 334, there's an argument to be made that emancipation was black genocide, between the economic deaths after the Uncivil War and the voluntary deaths from abortion.

Blogger Jew613 November 18, 2015 9:39 PM  

Phillipgeorge, I understand you want to believe that Torah Judaism and in particular the rabbis are out to get Christianity. But Christianity was never a serious theological challenge to Judaism. Sure temporarly christendom was very strong. But for Jews with even a limited Torah background Jesus being the mashiach or embrace of the religion Paul started was simply preposterous. Its why despite intensive efforts on the part of the Christian authorities few jews ever converted. Sure there are some Jews who hate Christianity but as a group we feel indifferent. And before you bring up the various Marxists who were Jewish they also hated Judaism and had renounced the Torah.

Blogger Dave November 18, 2015 9:51 PM  

"barren wasteland"

Oh no you've triggered the yoopers.

Blogger Danby November 18, 2015 9:52 PM  

But for Jews with even a limited Torah background Jesus being the mashiach or embrace of the religion Paul started was simply preposterous. Its why despite intensive efforts on the part of the Christian authorities few jews ever converted.

That is simply untrue. Roman census data reveals that over 90% of Jews in the Empire converted to Christianity within 100 years. Where do you think all those early Christians came from? Virtually all of them were Jews.
Furthermore, Paul did not start the Church, Jesus did. Paul was never the head of the Church, Peter was, and then Laurence. Paul was simply an itinerant preacher (preaching to the Jews, by the way). And Christianity has dominated udaism theologically since it took up the study, with Paul.
Jews refuse to accept Christ because they are clannish, stiffnecked and far too enamoured of their own opinions, not because there was no case to be made.

Honestly, don't comment unless you understand the subject matter.

Blogger Danby November 18, 2015 9:53 PM  

Oh, I missed this:
Sure there are some Jews who hate Christianity but as a group we feel indifferent.
Funny, that is the exact opposite of my experience. I have never met a Jew who was indifferent to Christianity.

Blogger Desiderius November 18, 2015 9:57 PM  

"preaching to the Jews, by the way"

Seems legit.

Blogger ray November 18, 2015 9:57 PM  

"The war lords, "regime" of rabbinical Judaism has done more damage to Christianity than Islam. It could be argued Islam was always too stupid to do as much damage as it has all on it's own."


Well en masse their own people are fleeing their lands, and the spirits over those lands. What's that tell you?

When Christ addresses his latter-day churches and messengers, does he call out the mooslims? No he is not worried about deluded mooslims.

He's pissed at the intentionally wicked. He calls out the 'synagogue of satan' who 'say they are Jews but are not'. Not by his reckoning anyway.

Then later while he's busy encouraging his Philadelphian group, he gets all worked-up and drags the corpse out again:

"Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee." (Rev. 3)

So, now he has upped the ante. Before, he just called them liars and fake Jews. And we know where that terminates. In Rev. 3, he adds that he is going to make them grovel and admit, basically, that they are liars and never were 'Jews'.

Good times!


Wikipedia:

"A 2011 study found that half of all American Jews have doubts about the existence of God, compared to 10–15% of other American religious groups."


Get that? The 'Jews' don't BELIEVE in God. :O) It's not enough just to disobey him anymore, or make golden calves etc. No, now they are so advanced, so enlightened, so full of vain opinionology they cannot shift even to acknowledge Holy God's existence.

The State of Israel wants to be secular, progressive, pluralistic, and the rabbis . . . don't get me started on that. Full of themselves, like America's churchian pastors.

Out they go with the dogs.


Blogger SciVo November 18, 2015 10:37 PM  

I haven't read his writing about it, but my own interpretation has always been that the Inquisition was largely about rooting out lying Muslims waiting to betray them. It's amazing how people can be aware that La Reconquista happened, and the Inquisition happened, and not put them together.

Blogger SteelPalm November 18, 2015 10:41 PM  

@61

What part of "rabbinical Judaism" do you think is compatible with "progressive, pluralistic Jews" that don't even believe in God?

They're two, distinct competing groups that openly despise one another, you fucking idiot.

Just like hundreds of millions of Christians are progressive, pluralistic, SJWs, and don't know the first damn thing about the Bible. Anyone in your family and friends fit that last description, so we can cast them out to the dogs?

Or better yet, the Death Cult invaders?

Blogger John Wright November 18, 2015 10:46 PM  

"When Christ addresses his latter-day churches and messengers, does he [sic] call out the mooslims?"

Well, actually, every nation mentioned in the Book of the Apocalypse as serving the Beast, from Persia to Sheba to Turkey, and pictured as attacking the Holy Land at Armageddon just so happens, at this point in time, to be a Muslim nation. Make of that what you will.

The curse of the sons of Ishmael is that they are the enemies of every land and every land is their enemy. Rather harsh, or perhaps merely a description of reality.

In fact, if you are one of those people fascinated by prophecies (I confess I am not) you can find quite a few mentions of the Moslems in the Old Testament, centuries and centuries before Mohammed. The tribes in that part of the world had always been foes of the Jews, going all the way back:

9:20-24 – Noah is offended by his son Ham, and as a result curses Ham’s son, Canaan. Canaan & his offspring would be cursed as a slave to his brothers. His offspring would become the people who reside in the land of Canaan and are long at odds with the nation Israel. The fact that it seems like the cursed nation is a people group and not the land itself (since it later becomes the Promised Land) circles back to what Steve has been noting.

16 – Out of lack of faith & disobedience, Sarai gives Hagar to Abram and Hagar gives birth to Ishmael. Hagar mistreats Sarai, so Abram gives Sarai permission to abuse Hagar. Out of all this faithlessness and strife, Hagar flees. God gives her the blessing that her son Ishmael would have many offspring, but curses him, saying that he would always live in hostility toward others. Later, Abraham begs that God would bless Ishmael, and God promises that Ishmael would become a great nation, but never revokes the curse. As a result- both Isaac (born of Sarah) & Ishmael will bear forth great nations, but Ishmael’s will forever be cursed. He goes to reside in Beersheba, in the land of Canaan (see above). If we peek ahead to Galatians 4, it notes that Hagar & Ishmael represent a nation in slavery, which is similar to the curse on Canaan back in Genesis 9.

25:21-23 – Two nations are in Rebekah’s womb (Jacob & Esau), and the peoples will be separated. The older will serve the younger.

27:39 – Isaac curses Esau after being deceived by Jacob.

28:6-9 – Jacob is told to not take a wife from Canaan. Esau has already married Hittite women, and it has caused strife in the family. Esau is still angry at Jacob and despises his father Isaac, so he goes to Canaan and marries Mahalath, who is the daughter of Ishmael, the cursed son of Abraham.

So in a way, the nation that would always be opposed to Israel has been formed- 1) the promise of a hostile nation borne out of Ishmael, & 2) a profane & subservient nation that would come from Esau, coming out of the people of Canaan. When Esau marries back into the line of Ishmael (Mahalath), the link is complete. In a great sense, Esau becoming son to Ishmael links together the curses on Canaan, Ishmael, and Esau.

If we jump even further ahead (spoiler!) this line subsequently becomes the nation of Edom, which is forever at war with Israel/Judah and is cursed b/c of it. Edom joins with Babylon (later to be overcome by Babylon) to conquer first the 10 tribes of Israel and later the two tribes of Judah, destroying Jerusalem & the temple in the process. The land where Babylon resided (though later conquered by Persia) becomes modern-day Iraq.
(from https://doughnutholes.wordpress.com/2012/01/10/the-curses-of-genesis/)

Blogger SciVo November 18, 2015 10:47 PM  

My last comment was a reply to rumpole5.

Anonymous BigGaySteve November 18, 2015 11:20 PM  

Maybe if you played up your Native American ancestry more the media would launch whatever you said like it did for the fake story of the good moslem security guard
http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-34845882?ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbctrending&ns_source=facebook
or the black guys smart enough to win a math prize.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3321924/It-pays-good-maths-Nigerian-professor-solves-156-year-old-Riemann-problem-scoop-1million-prize.html#ixzz3roXlvmWj turns to http://gizmodo.com/sorry-the-riemann-hypothesis-has-almost-certainly-not-1743014788

Moslems are going after your squaws in South Dakota.
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ec5ef60a3c704032931b39766f8abfcd/feds-nab-sex-traffickers-sd-catching-awful-lot-them

Blogger White Devil November 18, 2015 11:57 PM  

BigGaySteve
Maybe if you played up your Native American ancestry more the media would launch whatever you said like it did for the fake story of the good moslem security guard
Or he could hire a diverse harem of lady bodyguard, pay them each a dollar for their lifetime fealty to his fiendish dynasty. Then he can point out that unlike the White House, he has reversed the wage gap, as his Vile Faceless Flock isn't paid at all. Oh, wait, no, the Faceless-Ones are paid in skulls aren't they? They'll just start whining about the skull gap.

Blogger White Devil November 19, 2015 12:00 AM  

... forgot.
Nigerian Professor Did Not Actually Solve A Thing
Did anyone point out that he allegedly solved it in Nigeria? Man didn't have to migrate anywhere to be a math prof.

Anonymous Redacted ad Absurdum November 19, 2015 12:11 AM  

@Vox I was personally briefed by an Army O-6 on this topic who used your exact numbers and sources and did not cite you. And this was a presentation that is still disseminated to thousands of MI soldiers.

Blogger Patrikbc November 19, 2015 12:42 AM  

I knew he ate babies!!! Barbarian!

Blogger Shimshon November 19, 2015 2:56 AM  

Vox, what did you think of the rest of his premise? I wonder if he knows the true source? Perhaps you should send him a copy of TIA?

Blogger ray November 19, 2015 4:40 AM  

Steel Palm -- "What part of "rabbinical Judaism" do you think is compatible with "progressive, pluralistic Jews" that don't even believe in God?

They're two, distinct competing groups that openly despise one another, you fucking idiot."


Thanks for asking my view. The compatible (or overlapping) elements consist largely of emphases on Talmudic interpretations by Rabbinical Judaism's practitioners. Sorting uselessly through derivative trash from Babylon, instead of glorying in Christ's Word, his JEWISH apostles, and your own glorious prophets. For God's sake.

Why should a Hebrew adult need be told this?

But instead of God's Word, given to you freely by the agony of His servants, you anoint one another as rabbis and fete your own imaginings in 'wise commentaries'. Then you call it a religion, Rabbinical Judaism.

On plus side, and yeah I'm reaching, rabbinic jews at least must BELIEVE in God, as apparently they are making endless commentaries concerning his nature and character?

So, there's that. Well-done.

I'm not perfect and might rebel against a wicked ruler. But I do not rebel against a righteous ruler, much less a loving and generous king. And no matter what you or your rabbinical judaism friends think, you are not going to rebel against him, either.

In the meantime, while you're working on that, I'll pay to ship some of your Talmudic Commentaries to arab refugee camps for use as TP. No! No, don't thank me. May the tomes find their merited level!

signed, Fucking Idiot

Blogger ray November 19, 2015 5:20 AM  

Thanks for those extensive citations. Like you, I enjoy learning about Scripture. It's like getting glimpses of some wondrous, yet real, future -- like Heavenly Jerusalem, that Christ is tucking behind a vast curtain of galaxies, just waiting to spring on us! To our dumbfounded delight. Yes, I am also an amateur student of early Arab peoples and settlements, particularly along the Eastern Med. coast. Their settlements, practices, religious rites, and so forth are instructive -- helps contextualize the Bible and its personages, see things a little clearer.

I hope to get back to more of your comment later.

Blogger Jew613 November 19, 2015 6:31 AM  

Danby, all the data I've seen shows negligible Jewish to Christian conversions.

Ray I'll be sure to return the favor and ship over copies of the gospels to the Arab refugees.

Its really not personal but the lynchpin of Christianity is Jesus being the Jewish mashiach. He simply doesn't make the criteria so Christianity was never a serious threat spiritualy to judaism. You can believe whatever you want and most Jewish opinions are Christianity is acceptable for non-jews under the noahide laws and you can still have a place among the righteous in the world to come.

Anonymous PhillipGeorge©2015 November 19, 2015 6:50 AM  

Learn the Tanakh Jew613. I think Moshe would be happy for you to do that. ps. are you certain it isn't 612? Did you do the count yourself, personally?

Blogger Shimshon November 19, 2015 6:54 AM  

As a Jew, I try not to project and tell Christians what their beliefs are. I wonder why some Christians keep wanting to tell us Jews what is and isn't Jewish? Is there more pointless a discussion you could attempt in hijacking a perfectly interesting topic?

Anonymous PhillipGeorge©2015 November 19, 2015 7:10 AM  

Good question Shimshon, as a Jew do you listen to people who no longer call themselves Jewish? Are Karaites Jews? It seems that orthodox, reformed, secular, lubavitch, are Jews? Are messianic Jews Jew? Sorry if this seems peripheral to the questions about multiculturalism,,tolerance, 4G warfare, lawfare, cohesion, bases of law, etc. I'm not certain that it is peripheral. Bu mine are humble and perhaps barely informed opinions and I wouldn't want to avert the attention of learned colleagues from the challenge of the good fight.

Blogger Shimshon November 19, 2015 7:15 AM  

Seriously, how are any of these questions relevant to the topic? In any case, it sounds like you already know my answers.

Anonymous PhillipGeorge©2015 November 19, 2015 7:24 AM  

Shimshon, every war involves achieving the high ground and keeping it. The Golan Heights for example. How to keep it involves having resolve, nerve, verve, cohesion, will, resource, tactics, strategy, logistics, technology, foresight, insight, problems resolution, articulation.

Multiculturalism, is schizophrenic. It doesn't inspire the troops, communicate a vision or declare a destination.

Blogger CM November 19, 2015 10:49 AM  

The State of Israel wants to be secular, progressive, pluralistic

That's interesting... first, the Jews wanted a calf instead of God, then a king, now Reason and Progress.

Blogger MrNiceguy November 19, 2015 10:52 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Rabbi B November 19, 2015 10:59 AM  

"That's interesting... first, the Jews wanted a calf instead of God, then a king, now Reason and Progress."

It's a hardening and blindness in part. He will remove the scales from our eyes soon enough, ezras Hashem.

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.


(cf. Romans 11)

Bo Mashiach!

Blogger CM November 19, 2015 12:19 PM  

Concerning the reconquista and the inquisition, i learned about El Cid in spanish class, Muslims while studying middle east in world history, and the inquisition while studying european history in world history. It was so separated that only someone who had bothered to look at Spanish history as a whole would have figured it out.

As it is, I only had the aha moment reading these comments. As for the crusades, i wasn't even aware there was conflict in the ME prior to trying to take Jerusalem until i was in College - taking an upper class course. It is definitely not in HS history books and hasn't been for 15+ years.

Blogger Eric Castle November 19, 2015 12:29 PM  

First century hostility toward the church was a very common problem. This type of persecution was likely what Christ alluded to in Rev. 2:9 about the troubles in Smyrna. However, the problem most discussions have is creating a binary Jews vs. Christians perspective.

The reality was that the Jewish nation existed to ultimately bring about the Messiah as the once and for all sin offering, giving birth as well to the church and Christianity, and provided the first converts to it. Until Peter preached to Cornelius in Acts 10, 11, it was only Jews and Samaritans who became Christians. The hostility came from God ushering in the New Covenant of the church, and by necessity ending the Old Covenant of the Jewish Torah. This is explained in great detail in the book of Hebrews.

Jews who refused to accept this change (such as Saul of Tarsus before his conversion on the way to Damascus in Acts 9) became more and more hostile to the church's teachings. This is not surprising, however. Jews in the Old Testament time and time again refused to heed the word of the various prophets, especially concerning the coming Babylonian captivity (c. 606-536 B.C.). Of course they would reject the Messiah promised by countless OT prophecies, not to mention Moses himself as the "prophet" like himself (Deu. 18:15). The stiff-necked gotta stiff-neck...

Blogger FrankNorman November 19, 2015 12:44 PM  

I skimmed the comment, and saw that discussion of the "Does religion cause war?" / "Only when the religion in question is Islam" / "Wah, that's bigoted!" topic had given way to...

... a Christianity vs Judaism debate?
Well, it makes a change from Protestant vs Roman Catholic.

Blogger Were-Puppy November 19, 2015 7:31 PM  

@62 SciVo
I haven't read his writing about it, but my own interpretation has always been that the Inquisition was largely about rooting out lying Muslims waiting to betray them. It's amazing how people can be aware that La Reconquista happened, and the Inquisition happened, and not put them together.
---

The historically rewritten SJW version they only went after SCIENCE! and witches to burn at the stake.

Blogger M. Simon November 23, 2015 7:11 PM  

Does PTSD Cause Terrorism? is about how jihadis find people who want to suicide.

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