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Wednesday, November 18, 2015

Urban tactics: survival

Like many guys, I found myself wondering what I would have done if I was so unfortunate as to find myself in the wrong place at the wrong time if people who belong to no particular religion and totally aren't refugees or immigrants happen to decide to express their grievances in one lethal manner or another.

Now, it should be understood that sometimes there is simply nothing you can do. It doesn't matter if you are a physical specimen with black belts in five different disciplines, including Ninja and Navy SEAL, who can shoot the testicles off a fly at 100 meters, if a 15-year-old Muslim wearing a vest made of plastic explosive happens to be standing next to you in the elevator when he decides to collect his 72 virgins.

But setting aside pure bad luck, there has to be SOMETHING you can do to improve your odds and avoid being the subject of a pavement garden or candlelight vigil after yet another epic magic dirt fail.

A few basic thoughts:
  • Carry a gun if you can. Carry a knife and some legal projectiles if you can't.
  • Always wear a belt that you can slip through your keychain. It can serve as an effective submission noose or a fairly nasty ad hoc flail.
  • After you shoot, don't forget to scoot. Unless you're Nate, you're probably going to be outgunned. If you saw the clip of the French police exchanging fire with the Batalan attackers, you can see why it's a bad idea to go pistol against combat rifle directly.
  • Face to the door. Always sit facing the door and maintain situational awareness.
  • Don't just hit the deck. Hit the deck and move immediately to the side.
  • There are weapons everywhere. Be aware of where they are in case you need them. Someone once asked me what I would do if attacked RIGHT NOW. I picked up a stone and threw it at him, then scooped up another handful. He was already cringing and loudly expressing his opinion that he understood my point by the time I raised my hand again.
  • The police are not going to come in fast and hard. Their first concern is protecting themselves. Their second concern is preventing the bad guys from getting away. Don't think about waiting for the police, think about how you're going to win. Focus on attack and neutralization, not on simply running away, assuming you can't simply walk out another door and be safe.
  • Movement and distraction are key. Think triangles. Flank and then hit from both sides, ideally with someone serving as a distraction in the middle.
  • Think predator, not helpless prey.
The essential problem is one of game theory. The safest thing for the group to do is mass rush the gunman/gunmen. But the immediately safest thing for each individual to do is to remain motionless and hope someone else gets shot.

Reading the account of the concert hall shooting, the striking thing was the way in which everyone just lay there doing nothing while the gunmen were reloading. Now, it sounds like they were trained well enough to have one cover while the other was reloading, but there were well over 300 people in there; an AK-47 magazine holds 30 rounds. It reminded me a little of the scene in Band of Brothers when Easy Company is attacking Foy and Lt. Dike loses his nerve.

Despite the major and the other officers repeatedly bellowing "keep moving, keep moving", he can't find the courage to do it with the Germans shooting at them, and the rest of the troops are pinned down as well. Not until Lt. Speirs relieved Dike and took command of Easy Company were they able to get moving again.

So, the assumption has to be that most people won't do anything unless they think it is reasonably safe for them to act.

I did wonder about the balcony, though. Had the men on the balcony started hurling chairs down at the gunmen below, that would have presumably served as a sufficient distraction for the people pinned down on the floor to act. Of course, they had no reason to be thinking in such terms at the time, but now that we know what can reasonably be expected, we should think about how one might be able to do better and save some lives in the event we find ourselves put to the test.

I'm very interested in publishing an article in Riding the Red Horse V2 on this subject, so if you've got SWAT or urban combat experience in Iraq and you're interested in putting together a piece on the subject, let me know. If you're just an interested civilian, however, please do NOT contact me. I'm looking for someone with actual experience of these things.

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215 Comments:

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Blogger BassmanCO November 18, 2015 1:57 PM  

"Back to the door."

Is this to prevent the bad guys getting in? Seems like an easier place to get shot. I am sure I am just missing something (not trying to be pedantic) and am sure one of the Ilk will elaborate.

Blogger Giraffe November 18, 2015 2:01 PM  

I don't understand back to the door either. Wouldn't you want to be able to see who walks in? Back to the wall, if possible.

Blogger CM November 18, 2015 2:01 PM  

Considering all my traveling includes two small kids under 4, just thinking what I'd do under such circumstances doesn't get further than hit the ground and get on top of my kids.

I have finally found a shooting range thanks to whoever here mentioned the search disparities between Google and Bing.

Blogger Giraffe November 18, 2015 2:04 PM  

Considering all my traveling includes two small kids under 4,

Me too. I think it would be better to locate and exit and have your wife get the kids through it while you cover their exit any way you can. That's what I would do.

OpenID basementhomebrewer November 18, 2015 2:04 PM  

"Back to the door. Always sit with your back to the door and maintain situational awareness."

Interested in the logic on this one. I usually do the opposite and put my back to a wall and face the door. That way I can see who is coming in and out of an establishment.

Anonymous John November 18, 2015 2:04 PM  

VOX: Do you think we will ever see an outright ban of islam somewhere? It certainly could be banned for the same legal reasons the NSDAP (Nazi party) is banned in Germany, as in it endangers the basic free and democratic order of society. It would also make muslims think twice before coming to Europe if the asylum process required the conversion to some flavor of Christianity, as a pure practical measure but also a gesture of good faith.

Because let's face it, someone who doesn't like bacon will never become a productive member of society, let's not pretend otherwise, also, mmm... bacon!

Blogger VD November 18, 2015 2:07 PM  

"Back to the door."

That was short for "face the door with your back to the exit" and it came out entirely wrong. The key thing is to face the door and to pay at least peripheral attention to those approaching and coming through it.

Near the exit is ideal, since you can move out quickly if you see anything dangerous approaching.

Anonymous O.C. November 18, 2015 2:08 PM  

Our Late Mutual Friend always said *never* sit with your back to the door, or for that matter, the front windows. And he never did. Made it something a challenge to find a table in a restaurant, because he always wanted one where he could sit with his back against hard cover and a good view of both the front door and the rear exit.

Blogger VD November 18, 2015 2:08 PM  

Do you think we will ever see an outright ban of islam somewhere?

I think it is inevitable that we will see it all across the West. But possibly not for decades.

Blogger Timmy3 November 18, 2015 2:08 PM  

Carrying a gun or knife should not be attempted if there are bag checks, pat downs, or metal detectors. Concealed carry is illegal in some places without permits and open carry can bring grief. So hiding and running? Maybe. I have no sympathy with helping strangers. I am considering buying a concealable gun. Keep it in the trunk of a car or hidden in clothing in some cases. Seems like in most cases, you will end up dead anyways.

Blogger Guitar Man November 18, 2015 2:09 PM  

I have this thing about always wanting to sit with my back against the wall at a restaurant. I want to see the doors and windows clearly and I'm uncomfortable when sitting with my back to the door.

Blogger VD November 18, 2015 2:11 PM  

Concealed carry is illegal in some places without permits and open carry can bring grief.

There are all kinds of weapons that are perfectly legal because they are not technically weapons. Kali sticks, baseball bats, a nice cane with an iron knob handle, and so forth.

Blogger Giraffe November 18, 2015 2:14 PM  

One guy said he carried a large steel nut on a piece of cord. To a cop who wasn't too sharp, you could just say you were going to the hardware store to buy one the same size. When you loop your hand through the cord and swing it, it is going to leave a dent in their head.

Anonymous polyhedron November 18, 2015 2:14 PM  

What do you do with the zip ties? Restraint, garrote?

Blogger VD November 18, 2015 2:16 PM  

What do you do with the zip ties? Restraint, garrote?

Restraint. That's not really relevant for this sort of thing, though. It's more for everyday violence. They're basically lightweight handcuffs.

Blogger Old Ez November 18, 2015 2:16 PM  

@1, I had had the same thought. Back to the door seems counter-intuitive. Also, to be pedantic, AK mags come in 30rd, 40rd, 50rd, and even 60rd quad stacks. Not to mention drums and inventive fabrication. But, yeah the typical mag is a 30rd double stack.

Blogger CM November 18, 2015 2:18 PM  

Zip ties are too thick and unwieldly for garrote. Shouldn't you use wire?

If I weren't a female with a strength problem, I could do that one. Carrying crafting wire everywhere could provide someone a useful weapon in dire circumstances.

Blogger Bluntobj Winz November 18, 2015 2:18 PM  

Also a Sap Cap, tactical pen/flashlight, etc. The belt idea is a nice touch.

Situational awareness cannot be understated. After John Derbyshire's articles and many youtube videos of polar bear hunting I really upped how I looked at people. Couple that with FerFal's descriptions of how easily bandits preyed on rural areas in Argentina and I have real motivation to keep eyes up and scanning regularly, and maintain eye contact with people rather than look away when walking.

I've always resisted getting a CCP due to my dislike of .gov lists, but I may have to do so.

Blogger VD November 18, 2015 2:20 PM  

I've always resisted getting a CCP due to my dislike of .gov lists, but I may have to do so.

The lists don't matter when everyone is on it.

Blogger VD November 18, 2015 2:22 PM  

Zip ties are too thick and unwieldly for garrote. Shouldn't you use wire?

A belt is sufficient.

Anonymous polyhedron November 18, 2015 2:24 PM  

In MD, fingerprints are required to purchase a handgun, let alone carry. Rather a chilling effect.

Regardless, does anyone here have an opinion on Springfield's XDS .45ACP for concealed carry?

Anonymous Leonidas November 18, 2015 2:28 PM  

To add a point to the very excellent ones already made in the OP:

Fight the person, not the weapon.

If you're unarmed, you can't beat a bullet. You can't. On the one hand, this is where everyone makes fun of Hollywood views of the martial arts. On the other hand, this is where people mistakenly give up and act like it's already over.

It's not already over. Fight the person, not the weapon.

You can't beat that bullet - but the person firing the gun has to do all the same things that any other person has to do in combat: observe the battlefield, recognize what's going on, analyze the situation, formulate a response, and act. ALL of those steps have to happen before that bullet fires, and all of them give you time. All of those are things that you can read him on to get an analysis of the situation. And all of those are things that you can potentially disrupt.

Blogger fisher man November 18, 2015 2:28 PM  

My family has a plan in case something like this happens. Basically it involves me engaging the bad guys in an obvious way and my wife running off with the kids (plus various other options depending on circumstances).

If the choice is my wife and kids likely dieing; or me dieing, but they can likely get away; well it is an easy choice.

We even practice it every so often, and I train certain circumstances at the gym.

Blogger Caedryn Stonelaw November 18, 2015 2:33 PM  

After 9/11 I have always bought belt and buckle combos that have at least 11 ounces of steel in the buckle. Most appear very classy and not large like a Texan buckle, but I could very easily shatter a skull with them. Also I have found wearing the belt so that you thread it from the right hip to be more effective as you can release the catch and draw the buckle out with the left hand, and are guaranteed to know where the end of the of the belt is so you don't waste time grasping.

As an obviously important note to this, you should wear tailored or well fitting clothing. a 10 dollar alteration means I have full range of motion, and it could possibly be life and death.

Anonymous Leonidas November 18, 2015 2:34 PM  

Regardless, does anyone here have an opinion on Springfield's XDS .45ACP for concealed carry?

I have a Springfield XD full size in .45 ACP and I love it. Mine's the double stack, not the single. But I'm also a big enough guy that concealing a full-size pistol in everyday clothes isn't particularly hard. I'm guessing that you're looking toward the XD-S for better concealability. If it were me, I'd lean more toward a regular double-stack XD in the compact variety for the larger magazine capacity. 5 rounds in the XD-S just isn't very reassuring to me. If you do go that route, carry extra mags.

Otherwise, it's a damn fine gun, IMO.

OpenID Dennis November 18, 2015 2:34 PM  

For a well-executed ambush, there is no well-executed defense. That being said back in my service days we ran immediate action drills. If on foot you charge the enemy, in a vehicle gun it. Do whatever you have to to get out of the kill zone.

Your worst reaction is to freeze and wait to get shot.

Blogger Earl November 18, 2015 2:34 PM  

Be careful if you become the predator. You may look like an attacker to police or fellow concealed handgun carriers. I've trained to carry my pistol in my left hand while evacuating family or stalking gunmen, holding it by the slide/barrel, transitioning to strong hand quickly to fire when ready.

Blogger Dorsal Spine November 18, 2015 2:36 PM  

@21
The Springfield is okay but you are asking the wrong question.

When students ask "What gun should I carry", my response is "The best gun is the one you shoot well and will carry every day".

Buy a gun from a reputable manufacturer in a major caliber and train with it. Carry it everyday, everywhere, all the time. Everything else is just gun porn.

OpenID paworldandtimes November 18, 2015 2:46 PM  

In close quarters such as with a polar bear attack, a car key (something you're almost certain to have on you) can be a potent weapon. Lightly jab the back of your hand with it to get an idea of the pain involved in driving it hard into an attacker's face.

PA

Blogger Nate November 18, 2015 2:47 PM  

"I've always resisted getting a CCP due to my dislike of .gov lists, but I may have to do so."

where do you live? The state is good enough.

Blogger MidKnight (#138) November 18, 2015 2:48 PM  

Haven't purchased a larger-caliber handgun yet, but have extensively fired a couple recent-vintage 1911 frames,glocks, Sigs, and XD's while trying guns out for purchase.

The Glocks were reliable but don't fit my hand well, and lots of people like them for some reason. Most decent 1911's and the XD's fit my hand well, and I'm also a big guy, so I'd take one. Prefer the 1911's because I like a manual safety, but it will depend on what's a good deal when I actually buy soon. Really love the Sigs too.

The only thing I can say about the Keltec I have is it's small enough to stash away, and it was given to me. Other than that it's too damn small to hold, and the ammo is too damn expensive,

Blogger Nate November 18, 2015 2:49 PM  

"When students ask "What gun should I carry", my response is "The best gun is the one you shoot well and will carry every day". "

unless that is a 25acp or 32acp.

bullet tech has improved enough that 380 is no a legitimate option... but those two still are not.

Anonymous A Visitor November 18, 2015 2:49 PM  

"After you shoot, don't forget to scoot."

What about moving while still firing?

"The police are not going to come in fast and hard. Their first concern is protecting themselves. Their second concern is preventing the bad guys from getting away. Don't think about waiting for the police, think about how you're going to win. Focus on attack and neutralization, not on simply running away, assuming you can't simply walk out another door and be safe."

Years ago SCOTUS ruled that the police do not have an obligation to protect the public.

"So, the assumption has to be that most people won't do anything unless they think it is reasonably safe for them to act."

I'd add on to the end of that with " with someone else firmly at the helm."

@21 I got news for ya, they are too in Indiana.

In Texas (at least when I was there), you have to qualify on both revolvers and semi0autos in order to carry a semi-auto.

Give it a few years, but basically since the government has the last fourteen years of my life on paper (SF-86, have had to fill out several), not too concerned. I probably will be the longer that gap becomes.

For those talking about belt buckles, I'd recommend getting a few that are decorative that can be attached to belts (like this or this). They are a great legal weapon where carrying firearms are prohibited (i.e. aircraft). It's why I always where one when I'm on a plane.

OpenID elijahrhodes November 18, 2015 2:49 PM  

Regardless, does anyone here have an opinion on Springfield's XDS .45ACP for concealed carry?

If you ask 10 gun guys you'll get 10 different and passionately argued answers. Here's my take:

I'm not a fan of .45 for carry. Yes, when all things are equal, a bigger bullet is better than a smaller one. As we know, however, all things are not equal. In the world of handguns, bigger bullets means less capacity, more recoil, more expensive to practice with, etc. I'm a "9 is fine" kind of guy. I prefer more capacity. In a fight (and I've been in a few fist fights, no gun fights though), the only constant is variability. Things do no go down the way you envision they will. To me, having more ammo is the far greater priority during chaos than less, even if the round is slightly more powerful. And with quality defense ammo, the penetration and expansion meets all the FBI/LE standards. For carry, I use a Glock 26. I get 11 rounds in the gun, and I carry a 17 round spare. That gives me 28 rounds of 147gr Federal HST. I know... Glock... eesh... I don't love Glock either. But it always, always, always goes bang, and I can disassemble it down to its 34 parts and put it back together in less than 5 minutes.

Blogger The Other Robot November 18, 2015 2:49 PM  

I've trained to carry my pistol in my left hand while evacuating family or stalking gunmen, holding it by the slide/barrel, transitioning to strong hand quickly to fire when ready.

I strongly doubt that the average police officer is going to do anything other that shout "GUN" and then bang bang bang ...

Blogger Nate November 18, 2015 2:51 PM  

" Prefer the 1911's because I like a manual safety, but it will depend on what's a good deal when I actually buy soon. Really love the Sigs too. "

Taurus PT100 is a beretta 96 clone in .40. The only difference is they changed the way the safety / decocker works so you can carry it cocked and locked if you want. or you can carry it with the safety on with the hammer down. however you prefer.

also... they can be had at academy sports for 299. And they are excellent firearms.

Blogger Nate November 18, 2015 2:52 PM  

"I strongly doubt that the average police officer is going to do anything other that shout "GUN" and then bang bang bang ..."

correct.

and the bang bang bang is going to be wildly inaccurate.

Anonymous REG November 18, 2015 2:53 PM  

Yep, went to the airport this morning to pick up my grandson, last urinal in the restroom, the one with a back wall. Fifteen years retired, still unconsciously paranoid. I like it that way, too.

Anonymous Crank November 18, 2015 2:53 PM  

I think the Bataclan concert hall shooters were also wearing suicide vests, which they later detonated during the police standoff. That definitely adds a layer of complication, because they will likely be able to set it off even if you successfully take them down.

Blogger Nate November 18, 2015 2:54 PM  

"bullet tech has improved enough that 380 is no a legitimate option... but those two still are not"

sorry. I meant to say "now a legitimate option" not no. Normally I would bother to correct myself but the whole meaning is changed by the mistake.

Blogger Nate November 18, 2015 2:58 PM  

"For carry, I use a Glock 26. I get 11 rounds in the gun, and I carry a 17 round spare. That gives me 28 rounds of 147gr Federal HST. "

You realize the Springfield XD .45 also has a 10+1 capacity? Bigger bullet. Same capacity.

Next.

Blogger Lovekraft November 18, 2015 3:00 PM  

situational awareness is the key. Which is why this blog is so important as it gives us key knowledge to apply in the real world.

The language the enemy uses, their meeting places and ideologies allows us to recognize and avoid them. We neutralize the enemy from attacking with words (currently) through the massive progress the manosphere has made in recent years.

This movement will evolve to where we will be able to fully neutralize hard actions of the enemy.

Anonymous aviendha November 18, 2015 3:00 PM  

5+ years ago you couldn't get a 380 in the current form factor. An LCP in 380 is smaller than my old beretta 32acp which you didn't have to rack with the barrel popup. Today they've come a long way on 380 sizes, hell the fit in the front pants pocket and can be racked by those with limited strength. A .32acp is better than not carrying, and someone who can accurately handle a pistol .22lr can be quite lethal.

Blogger Nate November 18, 2015 3:02 PM  

" A .32acp is better than not carrying, and someone who can accurately handle a pistol .22lr can be quite lethal."

I know of a fella that spend a couple months in the ICU because he thought his .25acp was enough and "better than nothing."

Turns out it just pissed that big dude off.

Blogger Nate November 18, 2015 3:03 PM  

"and someone who can accurately handle a pistol .22lr can be quite lethal."

and yes... the 22lr kills lots of people. Its very effective.

If you're assassinating someone. Defending yourself?

No.

Blogger White Knight Leo #0368 November 18, 2015 3:03 PM  

@41

Without a brake or a suppressor, the recoil is going to be noticeably stronger.

And I'm pretty sure the "wildly inaccurate" police shooting was one of the reasons the FBI cited as justification for going back to 9mm as the duty caliber, yeah?

Blogger Cogitans Iuvenis November 18, 2015 3:04 PM  

@7 That was short for "face the door with your back to the exit" and it came out entirely wrong. The key thing is to face the door and to pay at least peripheral attention to those approaching and coming through it.

Could something be said sitting perpendicular to the entrance where the gun men wouldn't initially see you? This of course assumes that the gun men are coming in with arms drawn versus getting situated in the establishment first.

Blogger Lovekraft November 18, 2015 3:06 PM  

Bob K Mando: "think of it this way, the head homo in charge ( such as Peyton Head, student president of Missou ) is the narcissist who is aggressively manufacturing absurd pretexts about which he can throw a tantrum.

the mass of the SJWs and cuckservatives are the people who have been socialized / GROOMED to give the narcissist what they want at the mere threat of a tantrum.

the more ridiculous the pretext manufactured by the narcissist / sociopath to which you acquiesce, the greater control and power he demonstrates himself to have.

absurd complaints aren't a mistake, they are the goal. because the more absurd, the greater his personal stature.

and they're going to get more absurd yet."

- let me expand, if I may, on this as it relates to my above post about how tactics for situational awareness are key.

Bob helps us cut through the sjw doublespeak to show us how they operate on a fundamental level and, therefore, how to avoid their traps. In the past few months, it seems the shrilly feminist, best example being The View has been muted as MSM is realizing Hillary is loathed by almost half her country so they best not stir the pot with another Whoopigaffe. Tides have shifted to very real attacks on the populace's economic security via massive turd world immigration and it is hitting professionals as well. People aren't quick to coddle and entertain the sjw morons. Let them pillage and pout - it only delays the inevitable.

As Mando demonstrates, the sjws have a playbook. We need to realize that when the BLMers and sjws get their fill of 'sacrificial white male' blood, they'll search for more. We need to remain a resolute force against this so that they turn on their own.

Blogger Nate November 18, 2015 3:11 PM  

"Without a brake or a suppressor, the recoil is going to be noticeably stronger."

no.

If you have never shot a .45acp you won't understand this. 45acp does not have a lot of recoil. Particularly out of fullsized weapons like what we're talking about. Its less sharp... more of a push than a snap.

The 40 snaps. its a quick thing. more violent than the 45acp or the 9mm is.

As for the FBI's bullshit.... it is exactly that. They stopped using 38 special +P because they weren't stopping the bad guys. So they went to 10mm... but the limp wristed fags couldn't handle the recoil... so they asked S&W to invent the .40... which is really just 10mm lite.

Now they are going to 9mm... and they've come up with all kinds of bullshit reasons... all of which amount to handwaving.

Remember... these decisions are always... always always always... made for economic reasons.

9mm is cheap. That's why they are going with 9mm. Effectiveness has nothing to do with it.

Blogger Dorsal Spine November 18, 2015 3:12 PM  

@46
Yes, the FBI is going back to the 9mm because it is easier to shoot. With modern hollow points you don't give up much in 9mm. I still shoot a .40 but wouldn't be afraid to carry the 9mm instead.

Blogger Hammerli280 November 18, 2015 3:12 PM  

@28 Dorsal is right, in my view. Accuracy from YOUR hand is trump, and your mileage WILL vary. There are people who think the 1911 is perfect, people who think the Glock is wonderful...and there's me. I've a Browning that I think quite well of.

It doesn't matter. Caliber doesn't matter that much, not with modern ammunition. Beside, if the opposition is wearing a suicide vest, your best bet is to shoot them in the head anyway.

And fighting spirit matters most. Everything else is a tool.

Blogger Bluntobj Winz November 18, 2015 3:13 PM  

@The Supreme Dark Lord

I had not thought of it that way. I'll rethink.

@Nate

WA. I'd carry a FiveSeven if I can ever find that Unicorn.

Blogger Bill November 18, 2015 3:14 PM  

***Very Important Addendum***

If the attacker is using a gun, DO NOT lie on the floor, bullets tend to hug the ground as they ricochet. Crouch instead.
If the attacker is using bombs, grenades, etc, then lie as flat as possible to avoid shrapnel.
Obviously, the most important thing is to get away from the attacker, if you can't, then hide. Attack as a last resort, but attack fast if you're really close when it starts. And THINK ABOUT THIS BEFORE IT HAPPENS. Anytime you are in a crowd, be ready to run if something starts. Know where the exits are, know where something to crouch behind is. Few things really stop bullets. Car doors won't, chairs won't, doors won't, walls won't.

Learn First Aid, ideally, take a Wilderness First Aid class (that's what it's called in America). The idea is to take a first aid class that's designed for people more than one hour from First Responders. These classes are offered here in Virginia for about $100-$150, depending on who teaches it.

Blogger Nate November 18, 2015 3:15 PM  

to illustrate my point about the .45acp recoil cosider this:

45acp max chamber pressure: 21000 psi

9mm and 40S&w max chamber pressure: 35,000 psi

Blogger Cogitans Iuvenis November 18, 2015 3:15 PM  

Also, would anyone recommend some sort of training based on audible cues? I imagine that before the death cultists do anything they are going to bellow their favorite litany of death* which would give you precious moments to get ahead in the OODA loop?

Blogger White Knight Leo #0368 November 18, 2015 3:18 PM  

@49

I've shot my friend's compact 1911, but all I owned at the time was my Glock 20, and 10mm has noticeably more recoil than .45. So it's true that I've never done a .45-9mm comparison test.

I just remembered reading a female firearm instructor's blog. She said men who carried .45 should consider buying a suppressor, because it reduces the recoil enough to make the recoil comfortable for their girlfriends and wives. That stuck with me. I can handle full-power 10mm just fine (I've even handloaded my own before), so I'm not worried about the .45. But the smaller the gun, the more noticeable the recoil, even in semi-auto.

But one thing the FBI's report said was that most police officers were terrible marksmen, so reducing the recoil of their firearms and increasing the magazine size would help them in a firefight. Obviously, giving them better triggers would also help (I feel sorry for NYC cops on that score), but I don't know how many precincts budget for trigger jobs or allow officers to modify their issued weapons.

Since they were disparaging the officers, I don't think it was just a bullshit reason.

Anonymous NorthernHamlet November 18, 2015 3:18 PM  

How does one avoid getting shot when the police arrive?

Anonymous daddynichol November 18, 2015 3:19 PM  

When I travel via airline, once I get to my destination, I buy an inexpensive folding knife from the local hardware store or sport shop so I can just leave it behind (or sell it to a local) when I go home. I feel out of balance without one. 3" blade or longer. Beats nothing.

Blogger Nate November 18, 2015 3:19 PM  

"WA. I'd carry a FiveSeven if I can ever find that Unicorn."

they are out there but they are expensive. The ammo is also expensive... and... you should remember that you'll basically be shooting a pumped up center-fire 22 magnum.

its a nice round... but if you are thinking it is the super duper kill every thing round... it ain't.

Blogger Nate November 18, 2015 3:20 PM  

"How does one avoid getting shot when the police arrive? "

you should be gone by then.

Blogger White Knight Leo #0368 November 18, 2015 3:20 PM  

@54

Average projectile weight for a .45 is nearly twice that of 9mm. That ought to, at least, make a big difference in felt recoil. I can certainly feel the difference between 155gr and 200gr projectiles in my 10mm.

Blogger Nate November 18, 2015 3:22 PM  

"I just remembered reading a female firearm instructor's blog. She said men who carried .45 should consider buying a suppressor, because it reduces the recoil enough to make the recoil comfortable for their girlfriends and wives."

She's a fucking idiot.

women love .45s precisely because the recoil is smoother.

Jesus man my wife carries a Glock 36.

Blogger Dorsal Spine November 18, 2015 3:22 PM  

@54
My only problem with the .45 is single stack guns in steel are too big and too heavy for me to hide well. Double stack .45's in polymer are too wide for my hands. I don't like the snappy recoil of the .40 in comparison but carrying a gun everyday is all about compromises.

The .380 in my pocket is to get me to the full size .40 in my computer bag.

Anonymous Cash November 18, 2015 3:22 PM  

@60

Can you elaborate? I have had this debate with myself but could never come to a conclusion.

Blogger darkdoc November 18, 2015 3:23 PM  

I regularly carry a North American PUG. It is a 22mag 5 shot wheel gun that is easily accurate to 15-25 ft., has a safety notch between chambers, is very loud and scary, very easily concealed in a flat leather holster that fits in any pants or jeans pocket I'm wearing. It takes practice to shoot well, but is an excellent concealed carry gun. The holser carries 5 extra bullets. It is certainly better than carrying nothing.

Blogger White Knight Leo #0368 November 18, 2015 3:27 PM  

@54

But you're right, now that I think about it. Projectile weight makes a big difference in *total* recoil, but not in how it comes at you. That's caliber-dependent.

Okay, yeah, I take it back.

Blogger chris November 18, 2015 3:28 PM  

Um, guys, won't work.
Because I live in a country (NZ) where carrying a knife is a crime. Let alone a gun: basically the only people who have handguns are the police (locked in the boot of their car), the military, and Olympic competitive shooters.
Long arms have to be in a safe unless you are hunting.
But... that does not stop improvisation. And the first part of this is situational awareness. Note where the bad guys are and be not there.
The second bit is improvisation: you can pick up a stone, but a brick is better. An umbrella can be useful. Particularly if it breaks.
And the third bit is theft: take the goblin's weapon.

Blogger Dorsal Spine November 18, 2015 3:28 PM  

@65
It's only better than carrying nothing. Loud and scary do not enter into the equation. Can you hit anything with it? As Nate said earlier you stand a good chance of just pissing him off unless you hit the central nervous system. I'm not saying you won't hurt or kill your opponent but you stand a good chance of not stopping the fight before you get hurt.

If you can carry all that, carry a bigger gun.

Anonymous Leonidas November 18, 2015 3:31 PM  

Prefer the 1911's because I like a manual safety, but it will depend on what's a good deal when I actually buy soon.

This was also a very important issue for me, as I have small (very small) children in the house. Yes, I have a gun safe. Yes, I store everything securely. ALL. THE. TIME. But I wanted that one last layer of protection just in case one of the little ones managed to get past all of the other layers. The good news is...

The full size XD is available with a manual safety - mine has one. They were produced in limited numbers because Springfield was trying to win a police contract that required it (they didn't win the contract). They're not terribly hard to find, though, and not noticeably more expensive than the version without the safety. Note that this option is only available on the full size model, and only in .45 ACP.

You realize the Springfield XD .45 also has a 10+1 capacity? Bigger bullet. Same capacity.

And that's the compact version, which is why I recommended it over the XD-S. The full size version has 13 + 1 capacity (outside of the People's Republic of California). 17+1 capacity of 9mm vs 13+1 capacity at .45? Personally, I think the loss of rounds is well worth the bigger hunks of lead at this trade-off.

45acp does not have a lot of recoil. Particularly out of fullsized weapons like what we're talking about.

It really doesn't. It's not terribly much worse than 9mm. My XD .45 is a very tame gun to keep under control. Granted, again, that it's full size - but the weapon absorbs the recoil quite well.

There are lots of other good pistols out there. But like I noted above, I'm quite fond of the gun and found it to be a very good fit for myself. YMMV.

Anonymous Cash November 18, 2015 3:32 PM  

@68 I don't know what kind of people you are messing with but people really hate to be shot no matter the size of the gun. Especially if we are talking about youts and Muslims. Both are not going to stand and fight like trained soldiers.

Blogger Nate November 18, 2015 3:32 PM  

"Average projectile weight for a .45 is nearly twice that of 9mm. That ought to, at least, make a big difference in felt recoil. I can certainly feel the difference between 155gr and 200gr projectiles in my 10mm."

wait...

a .45acp shoots a heavier bullet than a 9mm?

no way.

I did not know that LEO. Thanks for enlightening me. I'll have to reconsider all the thousands of rounds I've put through 9s and 40s and 45s and 10mms and 357 mags and 357 sigs and 41 mags and 44 mags and 454 casulls and 45long colts and 500 S&Ws.


Look son... I'm sorry you feel like everything on earth has to make sense to you for it to be true. Hey.. that's the curse of the mid-wit. here's a little wisdom for you.

Reality doesn't give a fuck what you think makes sense.



Blogger Bluntobj Winz November 18, 2015 3:34 PM  

@nate

It shares ammo with another unicorn, which makes it very useful.

I don't think there is a superduper kill everything round, save a .50 Desert Eagle, and that's just silly anyway.

I think it will also be far easier to train my wife/family with it, or a good 9mm. As it has been said, the gun you carry should be the one you shoot best that's easy to carry.

Anonymous Leonidas November 18, 2015 3:34 PM  

"I just remembered reading a female firearm instructor's blog. She said men who carried .45 should consider buying a suppressor, because it reduces the recoil enough to make the recoil comfortable for their girlfriends and wives."

The best piece of advice I got before I bought my first pistol was when a good friend of mine talked me out of buying a gun that my wife would be comfortable using as well. His advice? Buy two, one for me and one for her.

You won't win with a compromise gun. You just won't. So don't try. Get one for you and one for her. In the long run, a few hundred dollars is nothing. It's pittance. Just pick up the second one.

Blogger Bill November 18, 2015 3:35 PM  

"How does one avoid getting shot when the police arrive? "

Don't point and yell. Speak normally, keep your hands visible, DO NOT CARRY ANYTHING. Drop your purse, drop your phone, drop your baby, keep your freaking hands EMPTY. And either walk or stand still, don't run.

Do this, you won't get shot.

Blogger dc.sunsets November 18, 2015 3:35 PM  

Two things: Body armor is still currently legal in most places and while the stuff that stops rifle bullets is far too heavy (steel) or expensive (ceramic) and far too bulky for daily use, the Level 2 or 3A isn't too bad, especially if you commute and thus don't look too stupid with something like the VERTX EDC Commuter Sling Bag. Bags such as those can easily be equipped with lightweight 3A panels for a few hundred $$$.

Frankly, wearing body armor is too hot. It's like wearing a winter coat all the time, I don't see how cops stand it. A bag, or armor only on one side, might be a much better option.

I have a minority view on guns. Since we're talking about defensive gun use, 90%-plus will be "surprise!" I've never read of anyone claiming he (or she) used the sights on their defensive gun when in the engagement. This means that a gun must index in your hand predictably, and proprioception is very important. It's not like TV; if you draw without immediate need to shoot you run the risk of the other guy(s) dialing 9-1-1 and claiming you menaced them. You have to be able to draw and shoot accurately fast.

For this reason I prefer pistols that are narrow for grip diameter, particularly single-stack semi-autos. The 1911 is a wonderful example, but can be finicky. Of the tupperware items, the one I favor is the S&W M&P Shield 9. Box stock it's pretty good, but with an Apex Tactical flat-faced trigger & sear it delivers an almost 1911-like trigger but with the extra safety of what amounts to a two-stage trigger (the first stage unblocks the striker.) Add a magguts.com magazine conversion and you have an 8+1 (short magazine) or 9+1 (extended mag) 9mm that conceals under a t-shirt. The gun points extraordinarily well instinctively and fully loaded is light enough to forget you're wearing it in an IWB holster.

I worry more about being struck by lightning than a "tourist," but if I had to be prepped for such I'd really like an armored sling bag that contained a folded Kel-Tec Sub-2000 with 33-rd stick mags full of 147gr Winchester Ranger-T's or Federal HST's.

Blogger James Dixon November 18, 2015 3:35 PM  

> Our Late Mutual Friend always said *never* sit with your back to the door, or for that matter, the front windows.

Wild Bill Hickock would agree.

Blogger White Knight Leo #0368 November 18, 2015 3:36 PM  

@67

Why would they lock it in their cars? Much safer on the hip where it belongs.

Blogger Nate November 18, 2015 3:38 PM  

"The holser carries 5 extra bullets. It is certainly better than carrying nothing."

Rimfire cartridges are unfit for self-defense. they are notoriously unreliable compared to center fire.

man up and buy real firearm.

Blogger Nate November 18, 2015 3:42 PM  

"You won't win with a compromise gun. You just won't. So don't try. Get one for you and one for her. In the long run, a few hundred dollars is nothing. It's pittance. Just pick up the second one."

exactly.

The fact that the woman was even going down that road disqualifies her as a legitimate reliable source.

There is more to picking out a handgun than caliber. Much more. The most important things in fact have nothing to do with caliber.

Anonymous Leonidas November 18, 2015 3:42 PM  

I've never read of anyone claiming he (or she) used the sights on their defensive gun when in the engagement.

A very good friend of mine is a fellow local martial arts instructor who is also a bounty hunter in his day job. As such, he's encountered real world use fairly frequently - which makes it great to grab his input on both the martial arts side, but also the firearms side. He preaches this point extensively. He's even gone so far as to file the sites off of his carry gun, to avoid the distraction, and teaches folks to shoot in a "just point your hand toward center mass and bang it out" method - and he preaches a one-hand grip. He's also quick to emphasize that his approach is a very close range approach - it breaks down pretty fast out past six or seven yards. But that's also the range at which the vast majority of gunfights take place.

His main argument is that in the real world that's about all you're really going to have time for - in a defensive capacity. If you're going into a situation hot (weapons drawn, ready for action) it's a bit different. But if you have to react in the moment, everything you can do to cut down your response time is critical.

He's used this technique very successfully in several real life situations, and he's gotten me practicing it as well. For me, I don't practice it as a replacement for the standard teachings of good stance and careful site picture. I practice it in addition to the other. But it's worth thinking about, and in this case it's coming direct from a voice of experience.

Blogger Nate November 18, 2015 3:43 PM  

"I don't think there is a superduper kill everything round, save a .50 Desert Eagle, and that's just silly anyway."

sure there is. 10mm.

Blogger Jourdan November 18, 2015 3:45 PM  

After leaving in a black neighborhood for a few years, I picked up nearly all of the recommendations on this list. The only thing I would add is to make sure you don't refrain from action because you are worried of giving offense or being called a racist. You'd be surprised how many people--especially young women--I know who have experienced great pain and loss because they were worried about giving offense.

Blogger White Knight Leo #0368 November 18, 2015 3:45 PM  

@81

One of the guys at The Truth about guns did a ballistics test with a MechTech carbine in 10mm. 200gr hardcast rounds penetrated more than 5.5' of ballistics gel, and kept going. Of course, that was out of a 16" barrel, but still.

Blogger Jourdan November 18, 2015 3:46 PM  

I thought the 10mm was strictly Fallout material. Is there really a 10mm gun?

Blogger darkdoc November 18, 2015 3:46 PM  

Actually loud and scary are key to discouraging someone. Killing should not be your first goal but your last. While at times necessary, I don't want to spend years in court hoping my self defense plea wins out. Most people will not face a committed trained terrorist, but rather a dumb thug. Scaring him away is always an option when available.

Anonymous Leonidas November 18, 2015 3:47 PM  

he's gotten me practicing it as well

It's also worth noting that at close ranges (5 yards or so), you can actually be quite accurate with this method after some practice. You won't be winning marksmanship trophies for tight groups, but you'll be solidly (with room to spare) inside the heart/lungs area of a man-sized target.

Anonymous Leonidas November 18, 2015 3:48 PM  

Is there really a 10mm gun?

Definitely. They're just not as popular as some others.

Blogger White Knight Leo #0368 November 18, 2015 3:48 PM  

@84

Developed for the FBI after the 1986 Miami shootout. One of the more popular models is the Glock Model 20; Glock markets it as a hunting pistol, and Danish Rangers in Iceland carry them to deal with polar bears.

Blogger White Knight Leo #0368 November 18, 2015 3:49 PM  

@84


http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ProductListing.aspx?catid=1730

Blogger dc.sunsets November 18, 2015 3:49 PM  

@Nate, some people mistake blast for recoil.

You may agree that the .357 mag has an unusual amount of blast, worse than a full house .44 mag for some reason (the latter truly recoils more.) It was the blast I learned to hate, and blast is directly related to the amount of propellant in the case.

To launch a 125gr bullet from a typical 4" .357 revolver to hit 1250 fps you may be looking at 19 grains of a typical propellant. To launch a 125gr bullet from a 9x23 Win (an unusual cartridge) 1911 at the same velocity takes about 9.8 grs of a suitable powder. The difference is blast, the concussion that pounds back from the muzzle.

This is why lots of folks like the 45 ACP's low pressure, low blast comfort. The 9x19, however still uses even less propellant for common loads, making it more pleasant for lots of us.

Different strokes.

To see how modern ammo compares across various cartridges, consider this:
http://winchesterle.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/pdf/Handgun%20Bullet%20Barrier%20Testing%20Protocol.pdf

Blogger White Knight Leo #0368 November 18, 2015 3:51 PM  

@84

Oops, sorry, adopted by the FBI after the 1986 shootout. First made in 1983.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10mm_Auto

Blogger White Knight Leo #0368 November 18, 2015 3:53 PM  

@84

10mm Auto is basically what you get if you push a .400" inch, 180 grain projectile up to 9mm velocities. Recoil is pretty strong, but it's one of the more powerful rimless cartridges. It's definitely the most powerful caliber that Glock makes a gun for.

Anonymous Starets November 18, 2015 3:54 PM  

I was thinking of getting the book "Left of Bang: How the Marine Corps' Combat Hunter Program Can Save Your Life". Apparently it is based on a US Marine Corp situational awareness training program. I read an article about the book and program which talked it up quite a bit. Is anyone familiar with the book, is it a worthwhile read?

http://www.amazon.com/Left-Bang-Marine-Combat-Program/dp/1936891301

Anonymous Goodnight November 18, 2015 3:56 PM  

Most people have workplace restrictions on weapons. At my last job I had a giant can of bear repellent pepper spray in my desk. I had peeled the labels, spray painted the canister red, then affixed fire stickers I made with my printer. It looked exactly like a fire extinguisher, but I told nobody about it so no idiot would grab it during a real fire.

For carry, there are lots of 9x18 Makarov chambered pistols around and most will fit in your front pocket. I have an East German one that always goes bang and it's a pretty decent round. It's a little hotter than a.380.

Blogger dc.sunsets November 18, 2015 3:56 PM  

Filed off the sights? Naw, that seems silly.

I'm just an armchair ninja but it seems that the way to train is raise the pistol (properly held) to just below the line of sight. In your subconscious it seems possible you might notice the front sight; at least this would allow the possibility of noticing a major alignment error (large numbers of short-range gunfights have occurred where NO ONE was hit, attesting to the problem of misalignment.)

I've even kicked around putting an extra high front sight on a carry gun, just to enable left-right alignment even better. At 5 feet to 30 feet being high or low 6" won't matter much if intending center-of-mass, but 6" off left or right makes all the difference in the world.

Blogger JartStar November 18, 2015 3:57 PM  

For a novice who needs protection it's hard to beat a revolver. They are simple, reliable, no slide to pull, safeties to check, etc. You just point and pull the trigger. .38P+ is still deadly. Not as deadly as more modern rounds, but it will still kill someone dead. .357 is a monster and as deadly as most any modern round.

Police got away from the .357 because of capacity, not effectiveness. That's the 9mm best feature IMO, you can have a hand gun with 20 rounds and just spray and pray.

Blogger dc.sunsets November 18, 2015 4:04 PM  

"spray and pray" Only cops get away with shooting bystanders in the backstop. You or I do that? 20 years to life.

Blogger Dorsal Spine November 18, 2015 4:04 PM  

@85
Just how are you planning on scaring him away? It's not a magic wand you can wave around.

If I draw a gun, I've already decided I'm willing to shoot you. You don't posture, you don't wave it around, you don't try to intimidate. Once the line is crossed where you are in fear of death or injury the only other objective is how fast can you stop the threat.

As Nate also said earlier, stopping the threat takes a real gun.

Anonymous Leonidas November 18, 2015 4:09 PM  

Filed off the sights? Naw, that seems silly.

Don't knock it until you've seen it in action. The major factor behind his approach is in how much it reduces the time it takes to draw/aim/fire. Filing off the sights actually helps the draw speed (the sites commonly snag on clothing), and with his technique he doesn't use them anyway.

The speed at which he can transition from holstered to controlled shooting is impressive.

If you've never done it before, you need to do some "bull rush" training. Get a partner and a dummy gun stand-in (a plastic trainer, a toy, a wooden pistol, whatever - just something that basically resembles a pistol). Get a good holster. Holster the weapon and get your partner to stand a given distance away. Then he bull rushes you.

How far away does he have to be to give you enough time to reliably get the gun drawn, safety off and chambered (if you carry that way), pointed in his general direction, and fired.

Seriously, try it. You'd be surprised how far away your assailant has to be for you to manage it. If you've never done it, you'd be very surprised.

My friend's method reduces the draw time slightly (and more importantly, reduces your chances of a major snag that kills you), but most of all, the aim time is dropped to near nothing. And if someone's charging you like that, you don't need to aim much anyway. He's right on top of you.

Blogger White Devil November 18, 2015 4:09 PM  

I don't want to spend years in court hoping my self defense plea wins out.
Zimmerman was given justice by his fellow citizen, but he had to live first.

Blogger Dorsal Spine November 18, 2015 4:09 PM  

@96
To each his own, but I don't start novice shooters on revolvers. A Glock or any other similar firearm are "simple, reliable, no safety and easy to shoot". The typical double action revolver in the hands of a novice, not so much.

Double action revolvers typically have heavy trigger pulls. That's frustrating for a new shooter who is also trying to line up the sights and get used to the recoil.

Blogger White Knight Leo #0368 November 18, 2015 4:11 PM  

@98

There's also the legal aspect of it. For self-defense immunity to apply, you have to be able to show that you had reason to believe you would have to kill your assailant. If you get it into your head that you can draw "just to scare him", then you are more likely to draw even if you have no actual belief that your life is threatened.

You can get in real trouble that way. And then we have idiots like Joe Biden suggesting that people firing warning shots; never mind that firing a 'warning shot' is a crime in most states, for exactly this reason: if you shoot, you'd better have good reason to be shooting.

Anonymous Leonidas November 18, 2015 4:11 PM  

That's the 9mm best feature IMO, you can have a hand gun with 20 rounds and just spray and pray.

That and price. I love my .45, but I cringe every time I buy ammo.

"spray and pray" Only cops get away with shooting bystanders in the backstop. You or I do that? 20 years to life.

Which is why "buy what the police buy" has limits as an argument for choosing anything.

Anonymous Poli_Mis November 18, 2015 4:13 PM  

I often carry a defensive flashlight. This is the one I have. I realize this is a lot of money for a flashlight but it is crazy bright and the business end will really ruin somebody's modeling career forever.

Blogger White Knight Leo #0368 November 18, 2015 4:14 PM  

@85

Move to a SYG state.


The Florida legislature is debating updating Florida's SYG protections right now; I think it has one more committee to make it through before it goes to a floor vote. If it passes, the prosecution will have to show probable cause that you were not defending yourself before they can even file charges. Meaning if they don't have any reason to believe that your actions were not in self defense, they can't even charge you.

Obviously, that only helps if the bill passes. But the last two committees it went through, it got more than 80% of the legislators to vote for it. So it might go through.

Blogger White Knight Leo #0368 November 18, 2015 4:16 PM  

@85

Not only that, one of the provisions says that if the judge agrees to dismiss the charges at any time, the prosecution has to pay your legal fees.


So it's a nice deal, and now lots of poor people won't have to worry about going to prison for shooting some asshole who breaks in just because they live in a liberal enclave like Miami-Dade county.

Blogger FALPhil November 18, 2015 4:19 PM  

@88 Developed for the FBI after the 1986 Miami shootout.

Interesting. Then what was I shooting in my Bren 10 in 1984?

Anonymous polyhedron November 18, 2015 4:23 PM  

Thanks, Leonidas (@25), Dorsal Spine (@28), and elijahrhodes(@34) for your advice.

Anonymous HoosierHillbilly November 18, 2015 4:25 PM  

@33 Might I suggest going to a different dealer then? Fingerprints are only required for getting a CCP. Otherwise, nope, not in Indiana.

Anonymous NorthernHamlet November 18, 2015 4:27 PM  

Nate,

2 questions.

1. "you should be gone by then."

You can... do that? Isn't there done sort of hit and run law there?

2. Your comment about more important considerations than recoil.

Such as? Would love your opinion here.

Blogger JartStar November 18, 2015 4:37 PM  

@97 and @103 Good point. A civilian shooting 20 times to get a bad guy = villain. A policeman = hero.

Blogger Dave November 18, 2015 4:39 PM  

if people who belong to no particular religion and totally aren't refugees or immigrants

You drew us in with a beautiful unbiased coexist statement then the train goes off the tracks when in the next paragraph you reference a stereotypical Hollywood suicide bomber.

if a 15-year-old Muslim wearing a vest made of plastic explosive

I cannot fathom why you would make such an abrupt 180. Something must have triggered this. Everyone knows the odds of being killed in a suicide bombing are 0.0%

Anonymous BoysMom November 18, 2015 4:42 PM  

For the ladies, as not-a-weapon weapons, hatpins are sharp and don't appear to set off danger warnings in anybody under sixty, including law enforcement.
I hear the same about the hair sticks some ladies wear in their buns: you can get them sharp and they aren't obvious weapons to people who aren't used to thinking outside the box.
Knitting needles fit the same profile.
Those are all, of course, only useful when you've already let the attacker get closer than you want, but sometimes you don't have a choice about getting too close to strangers.

Blogger Curtis November 18, 2015 4:42 PM  

Ef the TWAT. Try talking to this guy: http://www.maxvelocitytactical.com/

maxvelocitytactical@gmail.com

Or, he can get you in touch with someone.

Blogger Sam vfm #111 November 18, 2015 4:44 PM  

@104
I have a Surefire, but I would never buy another one because it takes two hands to turn it on.

Blogger Dorsal Spine November 18, 2015 4:47 PM  

Nate,

2 questions.

1. "you should be gone by then."

You can... do that? Isn't there done sort of hit and run law there?

2. Your comment about more important considerations than recoil.

Such as? Would love your opinion here.

My $.02
In a self defense shooting in Ohio, you don't leave the scene unless you are in fear for your life from his buds. Bad guys leave the scene, good guys don't. If you have to leave the scene, call 911 immediately and explain you need directions to meet the responding officers. Victims call the cops, crooks run.

The more important considerations are in no particular order.
Will you carry? Will you train? Can you hit anything? Does it fit your hand well? Is it reliable? Can you get to it easily? Will you shoot often enough to stay competent?

Anonymous Leonidas November 18, 2015 4:49 PM  

@104 @115

That thing just costs too much. A MagLite will do you nearly as well, and at $20 a pop I can throw them away after any defensive use and still be saving money after 15 encounters.

Anonymous Leonidas November 18, 2015 4:53 PM  

As far as non-lethal options go, I'm fond of the good ol' baseball bat. Throw one in the back of your car and you can take it anywhere. Keep a glove and a ball with it, even if you don't play, just so that nobody questions it. I prefer aluminum for durability, but the solid heft and feel of wood is nice, too.

And if you happen to have a fair amount of training with stick weapons as well... ;)

Blogger dc.sunsets November 18, 2015 4:55 PM  

@117 Fenix LED flashlights are reasonably priced and durable. As I see it, anything above 65 lumens is blinding and lots of single battery AA Fenix lights are brighter than that.

Surefires are nifty, I suppose, but they don't seem necessary unless one is spending the taxpayer's dime.

Anonymous Leonidas November 18, 2015 4:57 PM  

@118

The drawback is that it's likely to stay in your car most of the time... so consider it the "truck gun" of your non-lethal self defense arsenal.

Blogger The Pathetic Earthling November 18, 2015 5:03 PM  

It is interesting how people can just freeze in a situation. Just last week I was leaving my bank when an older fellow got hit by a car in the parking lot. Not sure it was anyones fault, but the guy got hit by a woman turning out of a row of cars and -- bang -- right into the guy at maybe 3-4mph. The guy timbered right over onto the asphalt and dazed and bleeding pretty badly from the back of his head. The woman stopped, but not before rolling over the guys foot.

Okay, not to toot my own horn, but there are four or five people around me, and the only one capable of acting, apparently, was me. Interestingly, I was pretty good about most of it, directing folks to call an ambulance, getting the woman to back her car off the guys ankle, etc. Sent another person to get some towels from inside, etc. But strangely, for the life of me I could *not* make myself figure out how to operate my phone. Completely blanked.

Anyway, pretty soon the local police/fire/etc showed up, but it was a nice reminder that I can operate in a slightly stressful (although certainly not life threatening to me) situation while others don't.

TL;DR - Take charge, others will follow your lead and will appreciate it.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother November 18, 2015 5:14 PM  

WKL,

My wife is lethal with a full size .45.

Blogger Joshua_D November 18, 2015 5:16 PM  

118. Leonidas November 18, 2015 4:53 PM

As far as non-lethal options go, I'm fond of the good ol' baseball bat. Throw one in the back of your car and you can take it anywhere. Keep a glove and a ball with it, even if you don't play, just so that nobody questions it. I prefer aluminum for durability, but the solid heft and feel of wood is nice, too.


Unless you're carrying the bat into the venue, I'm not sure how having one in your car is relevant. I suppose you could escape the terror attack, go get your bat, and head back in to take them on.

OpenID rufusdog November 18, 2015 5:16 PM  

XD brand? Yes, fine, owned two, both were great.

That pistol? No, too small for 45, poor capacity, penetration might be an issue, and really you don’t gain much in concealability, it is still fairly big. A pistol trying to be powerful but not quite getting there and wanting to be small but still fairly large, mediocre controllability & capacity is a bad combo.

So, putting everything in terms of Glock because that is what I am familiar with. I would suggest IWB @ 4 o’clock, Crossbreed Supertuck. No smaller than G19/23 and bigger is better! Besides printing just a bit more I don’t notice any difference between my G19/23 or G34/35, but I do notice a difference in how well I shoot, bigger is better! That said, you need a “have a gun, gun”. For me that is the G43 in the pocket, Nemesis holster. That pistol is for when concealment is an absolute must, at work, whatever the reason.

Don’t get hung up on the brand, it really doesn’t matter that much, M&P, Glock, Sig, CZ, XD, a very long list of well made, reliable pistols. But your large gun should be very similar to your small “have a gun”, gun. So 686 and 642 or G35 & G43 or M&P40 & Shield, you get the idea. Ideally the small pistol is pocketable and the large pistol is just that, large, but the way the feel, handle, controls, should be virtually identical.

Blogger Doktor Jeep November 18, 2015 5:28 PM  

Is it possible to train a person against survival wiring?

Yes.

All those French sheeple did was freeze. They didn't fight back, they didn't even try to record what was happening (all those people, no video). They either froze or ran or trampled each other trying to run.

I have known people who, if they were unarmed and someone walked into the room to rob them with a gun, the county coroner would be pulling an empty pistol out of a corpse's ass by the end of that day.

For years I have tried to push the concept of a "Hard Target Community". The sort of people that when any tyrant says "Let's disarm/rob/subjugate/enslave this (insert demographic or subculture here)", the military commanders in the room start to shit themselves and say "Are you crazy? That's suicide!".

In America we have only a small foothold on that. But the battle is dynamic.

OpenID rufusdog November 18, 2015 5:30 PM  

Point shooting is very important, almost to the point of being THE most important thing when trying to train for defensive shooting.

Filing the front sight off seems like a bit much, I have never found it necessary. Besides, what if you need to make a longer shot?

Focus your eyes on the target, center mass, draw and fire 5 as fast as you can, never shifting your eye focus. How did you good? If poorly you need more reps, better fundamentals, or possibly a pistol you point more naturally. Usually fundamentals and reps will do the trick.

The way to get good at point shooting is thousands of repetitions using the sights, at a certain point you realize you don’t need the sights anymore to hit.

Think about it, if attacked, do you really think you are going to pull your eyes off the attacker and focus on the front sight? Probably not, might as well train to the point you won’t need to.

Blogger TheRedSkull November 18, 2015 5:39 PM  

I don't find it important or worthwhile to defend the public; the public brought this on itself. Muslims killing atheists; everybody wins. Don't waste limited cadre resources stepping between. These attacks are our best recruitment and propaganda.

Blogger Nate November 18, 2015 5:39 PM  

"Interesting. Then what was I shooting in my Bren 10 in 1984?"

He's confusing the 10mm and the .40 mate

Blogger Nate November 18, 2015 5:44 PM  

"2 questions.

1. "you should be gone by then."

You can... do that? Isn't there done sort of hit and run law there?

2. Your comment about more important considerations than recoil.

Such as? Would love your opinion here. "


1) No. I'm not talking about a standard self defense situation. I'm talking the potential terrorist battle zone sort of thing Vox is posting about. You kill a thug that's attacked you... you handle it different. you do exactly this: A) keep your gun on him until the cops show up. B) when the cops show up, drop your gun, hands on in the air, on your knees. C) when the cops ask you what happened SHUT UP. Seriously. SHUT UP. You're going to want to talk. You're going to want tell them everything. SHUT UP. The only thing that should come out of your mouth is "Officer I need some time to calm down". The officers will understand this completely. Many of them have been in your shoes and will have friends who have been. Its a reasonable request and I guarantee you it will be respected.

After that... you say one thing and one thing only. "I shot until he stopped coming at me."

I will answer the other question in another comment.

Blogger Cataline Sergius November 18, 2015 5:44 PM  

Basic urban tactics.

Assumption you can't escape the building without extreme risk.

You have a carry pistol and a smart phone. Realistically your Go Bag is in the car. So no reload ammo. I am assuming a limit of 15 rounds.

After that everything depends on the situation.

This isn't the old days. Modern terrorists may not have an exfiltration plan. Plan A for them maybe kill as many people as they can as gruesomely as possible. Then die when the tactical unit finally breechs the building.

If it's a theater and you are in the audience and they start shooting. It's Little Round Tops time. Fix bayonets and charge! Pick the nearest one shoot him and then rush. Hopefully if you draw blood you'll take the audience with you. On the off miracle you have your back-up pistol on you. Hand it to someone next to you, Anybody who will use it. it's not doing you any good strapped to your ankle. It's not a great plan but it's all you have at that point.

A battle that is going according to plan is called an ambush.

If you were in the Men's Room when things went south, congratulations you might have a very good ambush sight. Many but not all auditoriums have a blind wall at the entrance of a lavatory to keep random people from looking in... that works for terrorists too.

Your hadji will have to get through TWO ninety degree corners to get to you. Better still, a
pistol in this situation is actually more tactically sound than a rifle. A pistol is just better for working corners. Stay at contact range. Put debris in front of the door, something that will make noise when he moves it. Sound carries in a head. Set your smartphone's camera to mirror and use that to scout him for you.

IF the blind wall is made of solid concrete HE very well might not be able to get penetration with an AK. If it's made of drywall of course he will.

And this is the only time I'm going to tell you this...when he clears the corner, go for the neuralgic shot. Brain him. Don't go for center mass. Yes the head is a much smaller target and if this was a street fight I would be telling you NOT to do this. However, this guy might be armored, this guy might have bomb vest.

Bullets and a bomb vest. Work it out dude.

Okay your tango is down. Strip him. Get his gun, get his ammo and get his CELLPHONE!. If he was wearing an armored vest, you are wearing it now.

The cellphone is important. It's probably a mission specific burner. The odds aren't bad that the only thing on it, is the contact list for rest of his terrorist cell. Presumably you are using your cellphone to talk to the police. They might be able to use their cell phones against them, if they have the numbers. Although I rather doubt the cops can move that fast. Although if this is DC, the FBI HRT can. Regardless every little bit helps.

Now, stay in your ambush sight and wait.


I

Blogger Richard Tengdin November 18, 2015 5:46 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Nate November 18, 2015 5:46 PM  

"Such as? Would love your opinion here. "

Are you good with the weapon? are you fast with the weapon? does the site picture come up natural and fast? Is the weapon reliable? Can you afford it?

All of these things are more important than .40 vs 45.

Now that said... I assume you realize that I wasn't talking about mouse guns here. 22lr.. 25acp... 32acp... these are not viable self defense options. They are talismans to make you feel better.

Blogger Richard Tengdin November 18, 2015 5:46 PM  

ind the Fire extinguishers. A blast to the face then strikes as required until they are disarmed and not moving...

CO2 in the face is unpleasant, dry chemicals in the eyes should be devastating.

Blogger dc.sunsets November 18, 2015 5:47 PM  

http://unbreakableumbrella.com/

Blogger paradox November 18, 2015 5:59 PM  

@21 polyhedron

elijahrhodes, gave some good advice about the Glock 26, because they take the Glock 17... 17 round magazines. Glock factory mags are also very affordable. Nate is correct about 45acp recoil, it's nothing compared to 40 and 9mm. Also SIG has the P320 and from the FBI's specs for a new pistol, it looks they will be picking the P320. The specs are completely biased toward the SIG P320.

Blogger jay c November 18, 2015 6:03 PM  

@125 Doktor Jeep

For years I have tried to push the concept of a "Hard Target Community". The sort of people that when any tyrant says "Let's disarm/rob/subjugate/enslave this (insert demographic or subculture here)", the military commanders in the room start to shit themselves and say "Are you crazy? That's suicide!".

In America we have only a small foothold on that. But the battle is dynamic.


It's called Appalachia and Acadiana. Possibly the Palouse and the Western Slope.

Anonymous BigGaySteve November 18, 2015 6:04 PM  

This guy said it best
"When the wolf comes to kill don't worry about the sheep, don't worry what kind of dog you may be or may not be. Don't worry about getting killed, don't worry about the aftermath, don't worry...about anything.

DO.

Make a decision to stop the wolf and then go stop him.

Stop him where he stands by whatever means necessary and don't do it with kindness, don't do it with anger, do it with sincere an solid intent that he will never stand again.

We live in a very modern age but the bad men of the world are very old in their ways and desire. And for old problems new answers are rarely the solution.

You stop a bad man by making a decision. That decision is all that will matter until the future of everything being over arrives. Give no yield, no quarter, no pause. Do nothing less than be victorious. There is no shortage of bad men in the world and there will never be a shortage of such men. But they, the creatures that go bump in the night, the wolves at the door, are thwarted by decision and decisive action.

It's not caliber, capacity, polymer nor steel that overcomes the evil of this world but rather bravery.

Be brave. Be Brave. Be Brave."
http://straightforwardinacrookedworld.blogspot.com/

Face to the door. Always sit facing the door and maintain situational awareness.

This and parking so I can pull out forward get me called paranoid.

A belt is sufficient.
Extra points for paracord belt. If you are considering garroting someone, wouldn't a ceramic razor be more effective?

Regardless, does anyone here have an opinion on Springfield's XDS .45ACP for concealed carry?

Go to a gun store that has its own range and find what is comfortable for you. It doesn't matter what is in your safe, but on your body. A double tap pocket pistol on you beats a .50 in the safe. Women can also get holsters that attach to the underside of bras.

I've trained to carry my pistol in my left hand while evacuating family or stalking gunmen

If you want to let cops know you are a good guy flash your ID, its what undercover cops do. Also they will know you are not of the party too stupid and lazy to get ID for Voter ID.

but the limp wristed fags couldn't handle the recoil NAFALT

Blogger Kirk Parker November 18, 2015 6:07 PM  


@119>:

"single battery ... lights"

Stay away from these, if they are LED? Why? Because any LED light with a single-cell non-lithium battery must use an inverter to get enough voltage to actually light the LED. The inverters I've seen all have some kind of negative feedback/voltage regulation in place, which sounds nice at first because the light doesn't get dimmer as you near the end of the battery life.

What's the downside? When they run out of battery, they go out virtually instantly! The voltage regulator keeps increasing the gain from the decreasing battery voltage, until suddenly the inverter can't oscillate any more. A very, very unkind letdown in an emergency situation.

For a light in a security situation, I highly recommend sticking with either lights that take 2+ x AA(A) batteries, or else the standard CR123 lithium cell.

Blogger Artisanal Toad November 18, 2015 6:11 PM  

My normal carry is a Glock 17 and dress-up carry is a Walther PPK, but my *always* carry is a little Keltech .32 pocket pistol. So, yeah, it doesn't matter if I'm carrying my Glock or the Walther, the Keltech is in my pocket. But, you know what?

If you're under attack and behind the action curve the thing you'd want more than anything else is a couple of concussion grenades. All blast, no frag, humongous boom and you can run like hell in safety or move in on the attack. Concussion grenades should be standard carry for anyone with a CCW. Why? Because they're effective as hell at shutting things down and less lethal to bystanders than laying down suppressive fire. Toss the grenade and run or wait for the bang and walk over and pop the sucker in the head. Problem solved either way.

I'm willing to bet the bozos in Paris were long on fanaticism and short on actual combat experience. Natural reaction when someone shoots at you is to seek cover or run and the first 2-3 seconds in a firefight are the worst because it takes time to jack your brain out of the initial instinct and focus on what you need to do. Explosives make that worse, which is why its SOP to toss in a couple of concussion grenades before making a hot entry.

If you were in a restaurant and somebody burst in with the intent and ability to inflict mass casualties, you're already behind the action curve reacting to what they're doing. They have the plan and you're playing catch-up. Assuming you're armed you have two options: fight or run. I advise both. Shoot and scoot, shoot and scoot. That puts their heads down and breaks up their action plan. If you aren't armed all you can do is run, but they expected that.

The most important thing is to get out of the kill zone and there is a reason infantry are taught over and over to assault into an ambush: if they stay in the kill zone they die. The problem is doing the right thing under fire when your instincts are screaming at you to do the opposite.

Want practice? Set up your targets at the range with a couple of 1" PVC pipes on either side of the target. Put roman candles in them. Wire them with model rocket engine igniters and make sure they're aimed at you (you might want a paintball mask for this). Put a string of firecrackers on the back of your belt and have a buddy light it all off. With the firecrackers going off right behind your balls and the roman candles shooting at you let's see what your groups look like.

But, wait. That's combat training and a big assumption with combat training is you've got the ability to establish fire superiority and then close with the enemy and destroy them. If you can't, and that's pretty much a given in any civilian capacity, your mission is to lay down some suppressive fire and RUN LIKE HELL.

A couple of you guys have mentioned instinct shooting. It's real and it works. My grandfather was a cop in a southern town back in the day when a guy named Lucky McDaniel was going around teaching them instinct shooting. He literally wrote a book about it (Instinct Shooting) and Daisy manufactured a special BB gun just for his type of instruction that didn't have sights. As a kid I was taught how to shoot that way. Give me 5 minutes to practice and I'll hit aspirin thrown in the air every time, penny's are easy targets. We used to shoot bumblebees out of the air in the summer when I was a kid. Part of the cops training program was with pistols with the elbow of the shooting arm held tight against the abdomen. The first time I saw it my grandfather lined up 6 beer cans on a sawhorse, backed up about 25 feet, drew his revolver and fired as fast as he could pull the trigger. He never hit less than 5 of the cans. And this was way back before things got all PC, so obviously he drank the beers first.

Blogger Rusty Fife November 18, 2015 6:12 PM  

@101 Dorsal Spine

Massa Ayoob would disagree with your choices of lighter triggers for new pistoleros. As I recall, he's the one that had the NY trigger developed for the Glock. It dramatically reduced ADs by NYPD.

The accuracy issue is fine for target shooting, but the heavier trigger forces you to grip the pistol tighter to shoot; and thereby gains the shooter better control of the pistol under stress. I wonder how many stovepipe are caused by light triggers?

Blogger VFM293 November 18, 2015 6:20 PM  

I see a lot of people here trying to over analyze what to do. Train... a lot. Get the best gun(s) you can afford. Carry if it's legal, maybe even if it isn't. There's a good channel on youtube for this, James Yeager. An ex cop and civilian contractor in Iraq, currently a tactical weapons/fighting/first aid trainer.

Blogger Rusty Fife November 18, 2015 6:30 PM  

@139 Artisinal Toad

Instead of concussion grenades, I had considered smoke for the office. Boat stores have orange smoke bombs that would be perfectly legal. I suppose on that track pen flares also.

Anonymous BigGaySteve November 18, 2015 6:32 PM  

Don't forget to practice retained firing for close quarters & Self defense insurance, I have it from US Concealed carry assoc.

56 Leo She said men who carried .45 should consider buying a suppressor, because it reduces the recoil enough to make the recoil comfortable for their girlfriends and wives. That stuck with me.

Is your woman not worth having her own gun? You are making the common caliber argument for having the whole family use the same round.

much. A MagLite will do you nearly as well, and at $20 a pop I can throw them away after any defensive use

The defensive use is 300lumins in the eyes, can blind someone at night.

Blogger Cecil Henry November 18, 2015 6:35 PM  

Whenever possible, avoid diversity.

Blogger Nate November 18, 2015 6:35 PM  

". I wonder how many stovepipe are caused by light triggers? "

Stove pipes are not caused by light triggers. They can be caused by limp wristed shooters.

You don't need a 10 pound trigger to prevent limp wristing.

You need to not be a pussy.

Blogger Rusty Fife November 18, 2015 6:40 PM  

@145 Nate

I've already switched from 12oz curls to 40ozs; what more are you asking for?

Blogger Cataline Sergius November 18, 2015 6:43 PM  

A MagLite will do you nearly as well, and at $20 a pop I can throw them away after any defensive use

ThruNite TN12. At about $45, its your best bang for the buck. It's 1050 lumens and it can do that under strobe...which they actually get the timing right. They only do direct. sales, which is how they keep the cost under control.

Blogger Noah B #120 November 18, 2015 6:46 PM  

One theme that keeps coming up again is that in extremely stressful situations, people respond as they've trained. No training = no effective response.

Blogger SciVo November 18, 2015 6:59 PM  

@ VD: You're right about canes. I've done entrance screening, and distinctly remember a nicely tapering cane with a heavy ball for a handle, because it was perfectly balanced for caving in heads. (But we kept it safe and gave him a loaner.) One of the most dangerous items anyone tried to bring in, and so innocent-looking too.

Blogger Jack Ward November 18, 2015 7:07 PM  

Since its guns;
Best AR frame for .556 Best AR frame for .308 Win.

Reasonable quality for the two above commensurate with a reasonable price.

Yes, I'm looking.
Thanks

Blogger Nate November 18, 2015 7:12 PM  

"Since its guns;
Best AR frame for .556 Best AR frame for .308 Win."

You can't go wrong with Spikes Tactical for a standard 5.56 AR. You can build what amounts to a 2300 dollar rig for about 800 bucks.

I love my spike rigs.

308... I'd go DPMS Sportical

Blogger VFM293 November 18, 2015 7:13 PM  

@150 That's a nearly unanswerable question, and one sure to stir up the hornets nest. If you want a gun that will work all the time every time, a Century Arms C39 V2 (milled receiver $850) or RAS 47 (stamped receiver$650). Both 100% American made, and near indestructible. Clean it with dish soap and water and oil it with WD-40, good to go. There's one on youtube that made it to 50,000 rounds before an extractor spring broke.

Blogger Nate November 18, 2015 7:14 PM  

"I've already switched from 12oz curls to 40ozs; what more are you asking for?"

3oz curls.. preferably involving Russell's Reserve and a tumbler.

more efficient.

Blogger SciVo November 18, 2015 7:17 PM  

@ Bluntobj Winz: Sap cap is a baseball cap with a heavy fishing weight attached to the back (as a "souvenir from Alaksa"), yes? I've seen that before. Guy did self-defense training on the side.

He had some particularly nasty advice for women: using sharpened pencils as hair sticks to stab into someone's thigh, break it off and run away. (Keep the other half to match to the other half, to be extracted at a hospital after the muscle closes over it.)

I remember excluding what I saw as a tactical flashlight. No, you are not allowed to bring in a kubaton in disguise, even if you don't know how to use one.

Blogger Rusty Fife November 18, 2015 7:23 PM  

@153 Nate,

"Tumbler"...I recall a double rocks glass with a dumbell attached to it somewhere in my murky past.

Actually, Ayoob's point about trigger wieight was that there was a sympathetic response to pulling hard on the trigger that forced the shooter to grip harder; my hypothesis was that this would stiffen the wrist.

I know it works for my Airweight J-frame. I grip that like no tomorrow when I pull the trigger. The 158gr +P doesn't help.

Blogger Jack Ward November 18, 2015 7:40 PM  

Thanks Nate; was hoping you would weigh in. I have looked, with interest, at the DPMS 556. Will check out the Spikes. I would probably give up 223 totally cept for the amount of ammo I have. 308 just has that nice feel to it I knew and loved in Nam [before the cursed M16; before they cleared most of the worse of the problems]

Anonymous Ouch November 18, 2015 7:46 PM  

The local range periodically has force on force games in a warehouse using Glocks and ARs with UTM rounds. (Think of it as paintball with a real weapon. Those rounds sting like shit and draw blood if they hit unpadded flesh.)

So we are room clearing against armed, prepared opponents. Teams take turns playing offense and defense.

Some lessons:
1. I can't remember ever using sights. It happens so fast it is all point-and-shoot. But it is close range so hard to miss. Which leads to the next point...
2. Very unlikely to emerge from a gun battle unscathed. I got shot a lot. Mostly on the arms... few torso hits... but definitely hospital time if it had been real guns.
3. If you have to pick out bad guys from innocents, and the bad guys plan to shoot everybody, they have a natural advantage in reaction time and that's bad news for you. I shot "hostages" and my own team members quite a few times. Oops, sorry about that.
4. If you are in your own house, don't try to clear it unless you absolutely have to. The bad guy hiding in the room waiting for you to come through the door has a great advantage over the guy (you) coming into the room and looking for the bad guy.
5. Practice low light, practice moving while firing, practice engaging multiple moving targets while moving yourself. Yes, this is hard to do at the average range where you stand there shooting at one well-lit, unmoving piece of paper.

Blogger Nate November 18, 2015 7:52 PM  

"Actually, Ayoob's point about trigger wieight was that there was a sympathetic response to pulling hard on the trigger that forced the shooter to grip harder; my hypothesis was that this would stiffen the wrist. "

Remember mate... Ayoob was looking for a way to make bad shooters who never train or practice better without training and practice.

His advice doesn't apply to you in this case.

Heavy triggers are stupid.

Learn to shoot accurately. Use the right part of your finger. Squeeze. Don't pull.

Blogger Nate November 18, 2015 7:54 PM  

"I know it works for my Airweight J-frame. I grip that like no tomorrow when I pull the trigger. The 158gr +P doesn't help."

that +P ain't doing you any good in a 2 inch barrel mate.

They do make snubby specific loads now with really fast burning powder. It helps but it doesn't solve the problem.

OpenID rufusdog November 18, 2015 8:00 PM  

Rock River
Daniel Defense

Blogger Nate November 18, 2015 8:09 PM  

"Daniel Defense"

I don't think he's lookin' to spend 2500 bucks hoss.

Blogger dc.sunsets November 18, 2015 8:20 PM  

that +P ain't doing you any good in a 2 inch barrel mate.
En how. In 9x19 115gr or 124gr loses a lot of vel when you go from a 4" to a 3" barrel, too (the chronograph doesn't lie.) Food for thought (and a rationale for 147gr Ranger T/ or HST.

Since rifles came up, anyone care to comment on age-old data showing that the FMJ rounds people are hoarding like Tolkein's trolls (whether in 5.56, or either 7.62x39 or 7.62x51) are vastly overrated?

Fackler's documents, written by a guy who actually had to treat people shot with such rounds, and paid by the military to actually work up some data on the subject, are pretty clear: often times these rounds zip right through and neither begin to yaw nor fragment until continuing a tour of the landscape. He was quite clear, that velocity alone has no lasting effect, and that only actual tissue tearing, usually from fragments, was important. A 22 cal or 30 cal hole in a non-vital spot isn't more magic just because it was traveling 2300-2800 fps.

This suggests that only expensive, well proven and well tested "modern" ammo can be solidly trusted. Rounds like Federal's 62gr bonded soft point or (in some cases) the 77gr OTM, and their 30 cal equivalents. At this point, I'd love to see a show of hands how many people have squirreled away a thousand or two of these $1/shot, almost unobtainable rounds for their favorite MSR.

I prefer the 6.8 SPC with BTHP's, but then again I'm a civilian with no delusions of Call of Duty in my future.

With regard to AR manufacturers, who cares? You can assemble one from parts right out of a bin, using a hotel dresser as a vice and a rusty screwdriver found in the street (presumably true story of a guy doing just this on ARF.com, with--of all things--an M16....the real deal.) I'm leery of AR's in 308. Maybe the longevity problems have been solved, but who runs their AR10 like an AR15? Too costly. And I like ar15performance.com parts. Nothing cooler than nitrocarburized barrels instead of the outdated chrome lining. Very worthwhile.

PS: I don't like carbine gas systems. For 16" barrels I prefer the mid-length for less gas in the face. I also think M-forgeries are silly. Just a way to get rid of barrels with the grenade launcher cutout in them.

OpenID rufusdog November 18, 2015 8:23 PM  

Many DD aren't that bad.

Only two I could recommend.

Blogger Unknown November 18, 2015 8:34 PM  

Yes, but what if I'm carting a pussy along while being in the wrong place at the wrong time? In other words, what do I do if (1) I actually have a vagina, a Glock and a concealed carry license or (2) the guy I'm with is a pussy?

Blogger Hammerli280 November 18, 2015 8:34 PM  

@162:

Wideners.com is selling an IMI clone of the M262 77 grain round for $329 for 500. I hear good things about it.

Blogger Rusty Fife November 18, 2015 8:39 PM  

@158 Nate

"Remember mate... Ayoob was looking for a way to make bad shooters who never train or practice better without training and practice."

Yes, but my original comment was directed to Dorsal Spine on giving new shooters light triggers; not members of the Card Carrying Ilk.

Understood. My Airweight is for hiking, boating, and fishing; snake shot fills the first chamber; carry pistol is a 1911A1. Revolvers can be shot easily while still in a Ziplock sandwich bag.

In that regard, my holster is a Wilderness Safepacker. It is fantastic, looks like a tablet case and can be strapped on with out flashing. Worn weakside/cross-draw, it is very comfortable while driving.

http://www.thewilderness.com/safepacker-concealment-holster/

Anonymous NateM November 18, 2015 8:42 PM  

@75 Armor can be more reasonable than you think. Just happen to be looking at this today

http://www.ar500armor.com/ar500-armor-body-armor/level-iv-body-armor.html

here is a vid of FPS Russia Testing it


It'll absorb an impressive amount of firepower even with the soft armor in. The hard plate (i'm getting that's the IV) was really impressive. according to the site they are only 7.5 pounds per plate, 15 total. Not much if you're a bigger guy anyways

Blogger Nate November 18, 2015 8:52 PM  

"Since rifles came up, anyone care to comment on age-old data showing that the FMJ rounds people are hoarding like Tolkein's trolls (whether in 5.56, or either 7.62x39 or 7.62x51) are vastly overrated?"

The stuff people are hording... particularly the 5.56 is shit. I mean total shit. The bullets break apart and tumble and generally don't penetrate for shit.

Its great for plinking. Its great for practice. But just like your carry hand gun... you need to keep a few mags of good 223 ammo... like Hornady TAP or something similar. The tests you see on the 5.56 failing to penetrate are almost always done with shit military ammo.

Once you realize 90% of everything military uses is total shit the shine really comes off the soldier heros that talk so much on the internet.

Blogger Nate November 18, 2015 8:54 PM  

"Understood. My Airweight is for hiking, boating, and fishing; snake shot fills the first chamber; carry pistol is a 1911A1. Revolvers can be shot easily while still in a Ziplock sandwich bag."

awesome. I've got a 7 shot 357 for that... but mine has a 4 inch barrel

Anonymous NateM November 18, 2015 8:58 PM  

Rewatching the Vid,
the IIIA stops
38 Special
9mm
45ACP
357 Mag
44 Mag
.500 Magnum (not sure if this was IIIA or another, it stopped it, but the ballistic Gel looked rough


the IV plate stops,
556 FMJ
7.62X39 FMJ
308
458 SOCOM
556 Green Tip
That he tested

Pretty impressive. The IIIA plates only weigh a few pounds each according to the site.

Anonymous Heh November 18, 2015 8:58 PM  

what do I do if (1) I actually have a vagina, a Glock and a concealed carry license or (2) the guy I'm with is a pussy?

When your guy who is a pussy is killed, seek the protection of a man who is not a pussy.

Blogger Rusty Fife November 18, 2015 9:08 PM  

@169 Nate

Ohh goody; four whole inches. UR revolver is bigger 's mine...AND a magnum!

Thanks toots, not my type.

Blogger So Meh November 18, 2015 9:16 PM  

my understanding was your suppose to reflexively try flipping your table over to give yourself some type of cover and concealment, then orientate, throw things to distract if possible (mentioned above), and of course evacuate as fast as safely as possible. if you have to fight, always turn your body to the side to present a smaller target and to protect vital organs. lastly, if no possible exist and you have to fight...fight as fast and dirty as possible attacking full force to groin or eyes. very easy to say...very tough to do.

Blogger So Meh November 18, 2015 9:18 PM  

i forgot to add. waiting for the police to save you is death.

Blogger TheRedSkull November 18, 2015 9:20 PM  

What you guys need to be doing is building a decentralized "Moon is a Harsh Mistress" style cellular structure capable of seizing power and governing once The Fed Hits the Fan and the rentacops stop getting their paychecks.

Other than that, rights flexing and suicidal surgical strikes are all that currently works at slightly stemming the tide. E.g. open carry AR-15s and Pastor Steven L Anderson challenging the border patrol for a double tasering plus beatdown.

Mostly stay out of the crossfire and maintain jurisdictional mobility and intelligent locale selection. #NotYourShield

As far as Urban Survival, James LaFonde is #1 for ghetto diversenriched survival as prey. Which is as bad an idea as it sounds.

Blogger rumpole5 November 18, 2015 9:26 PM  

Like Ralphie in "A Christmas Story", we need to find our rage against these orcs. We are just not there yet. That blind killing rage matters even more than the weapons and tactics.

Blogger Groot November 18, 2015 9:27 PM  

Stand or sit by the tree. Seven feet tall with bullet-proof skin. Nice guy, too. Relaxed, nay, confident. I've only been dis-armed by that green-skinned minx. (I got better.) Though she's my friend now. (Hi!)

Blogger Thucydides November 18, 2015 9:29 PM  

Remember the vast majority of people are "productive sheep", and in a situation like Paris, won't react unless a sheepdog is there to protect his flock.

There is a cultural element as well; in the last 9/11 attack and just recently in Europe, Americans rushed the gunman/men despite not being armed, and in the worst possible conditions imaginable (coming straight down the aisle of an airliner or train, with no possibility of tactical manoeuvre). Perhaps the best thing to do is realize there are virtually no other options and resolve to sell your life dearly, face towards the enemy. If you have the means to carry weaponry, by all means do so, but if not, resolute movement to the front will startle the enemy (possibly buying a few moments of time), and should trigger more people to move as well.

While never in a gunfight or terrorist attack, this principle does work in other situations I have been involved in, for example, moving a crowd away from a car accident scene.

Anonymous Discard November 18, 2015 10:17 PM  

Wear comfortable, sturdy shows. I wear LeHigh or Thorogood steel toes. If things are turning to shit, be sure that your feet don't betray you.

Blogger Bill November 18, 2015 10:24 PM  

Wow. It looks like literally half the posts on this thread are by Nate. And he's just talking shit. Nothing of actual use to real people in real situations. But, one thing Nate said you should tattoo on the inside of your eyelids.

@129 Nate

B) when the cops show up, drop your gun, hands on in the air, on your knees. C) when the cops ask you what happened SHUT UP. Seriously. SHUT UP. You're going to want to talk. You're going to want tell them everything. SHUT UP.

That's GREAT advice no matter what situation you're in. SHUT UP. And if you're actually talking to cops? SHUT THE EFF UP! Gag yourself with a sock if you have to, but SHUT UP.

Anonymous BigGaySteve November 18, 2015 10:29 PM  

164 In other words, what do I do if (1) I actually have a vagina, a Glock and a concealed carry license or (2) the guy I'm with is a pussy?

I mentioned it before but there are under the bra gun holsters. Perhaps you could get the guy interested in guns if you buy the bayonet for the glock. Remember glocks are the Barbie dolls of handguns. If nothing else he could hold extra rounds for you.

Blogger JaimeInTexas November 18, 2015 10:31 PM  

Just repeat ... they were going to kill me, I need medical help, I need my lawyer.
Of course you need medical help., you are in chock, oh the horror of having to protect your life in that way.
I need my lawyer.
Hyperventilating ... weakness ... need to hospital ...
I need my laywer.

Blogger pyrrhus November 18, 2015 10:48 PM  

VD, in the Tucson mass shooting a few years back, your scenario played out. When the shooter had to change magazines, he was tackled by several men and knocked to the ground. One of those men was my next door neighbor, a big mild manner guy who is also a medical doctor....

Blogger SciVo November 18, 2015 10:55 PM  

@ Bill: Yes, we have a 5A for a reason. Just shut the eff up.

Blogger Buddy E. November 18, 2015 11:05 PM  

I love my sig p227, and 'oddly' my wife shoots 45acp better than she does most 9mm. It doesn't have as sharp of a recoil profile, and most 45s are gonna be heavier guns too, which contributes to less perceived recoil.

As for buying a woman a gun, You're better off letting her shoot a few and see what works. Hand sizes, etc, matter. Trigger reach matters. And for Gods sake don't get her one of those micro guns unless shes shot it and likes it. The wife shot a sig 938 and the damn thing made her flinch the rest of the night. She couldn't hit shit after shooting 3 rounds through that thing. It literally hurt to shoot. A gun you won't shoot and practice with is worthless IMO.

Above all shoot that thing a lot until you know the weapon like the palm of your hand. You shouldn't have to think to operate it. If it has a safety, you shouldn't have to go 'which way does this flip for fire?' It should be automatic. If it's not you need to shoot a lot more.

In the end find a gun that you feel comfortable with. Go to a range and rent a bunch of them. Some will feel more natural (that's why I shoot the sig, it just 'fits' for me). Screw 32 and 25 unless its a backup, and frankly I'd still suggest 380 as a minimum as Nate says. Admittedly a 32 in the boot is better than no gun at all, but, there are plenty of better choices that are just as compact.

As for 556, those greentips are garbage. There's a reason the military quit using the round: it sucks.

As an aside, anyone have any experience with http://urbancarryholsters.com/ ? I'm a big dude and looking for an alternative that's more concealed than the typical IWB pancake. Thunderwear? Smartcarry?

I'm a big dude, and I like the idea of a 'total concealed' carry.

Blogger DeeDee Arnold November 18, 2015 11:12 PM  

I did not know that Glocks are considered to be the Barbie dolls of handguns. Thank you for that. Isn't there precedence for allowing females, in times of war, to actually do something other than carry mattresses around on their backs? I don't want to derail this blog as I think the discussions are brilliant, but, on the other hand . . .

Anonymous kjj November 18, 2015 11:24 PM  

We just did active shooter drills here. Official doctrine here is to wait for 2 officers on scene, or 4 if they will be along shortly. Unofficial doctrine is that if it is at a school, the first guy to arrive isn't waiting for backup.

"Active shooter" is the threat that they consider most likely to have to deal with. As far as I can tell, no one has come up with a reasonable response to things like the Paris theater attack.

Try as I might, I can't come up with a good doctrine for situations like that. The best I can come up with is to control the borders, then provide defense in depth by banning gun-free zones and encouraging citizen carry until maybe 5% of any given group is likely to be armed.

Blogger Nate November 18, 2015 11:51 PM  

"And he's just talking shit. Nothing of actual use to real people in real situations."

Really?

You trust a rim fire with your life like the genius up there?

Perhaps you also think the .45acp kick hard because you read it on a female firearms instructors blog.

Anonymous kjj November 18, 2015 11:54 PM  

I love my 4.25" 1911, but it is damn hard to conceal for 75% of the year. I'm currently leaning very heavily towards the S&W Shield 9mm for every day carry. It is a hair bigger than the really tiny 9s and 380s (LCP, LC9, Bodyguard, etc). As small as that hair is objectively, it can be a problem if it is the difference between fitting into a pocket or not.

I've never understood the bizarre misconception that the 45 is difficult to handle. No one who has ever shot one could possibly come away with that opinion. It is a big heavy round with a lot of power, but it is a gentle kitten in your hand. I can shoot 45 all day, but a couple magazines of 9mm and the stinging in my palm makes me want to pack it in.

I do notice that I get a huge muzzle rise on my first shot of the day with the 45. When I see the top of my slide, I think "Oh, right, control the muzzle", and all is fine after that. I don't tense up, or fight it, just reminding myself is enough.

Blogger Nate November 18, 2015 11:54 PM  

"Ohh goody; four whole inches. UR revolver is bigger 's mine...AND a magnum! "

That's not braggin' sugar britches. I just happen to have an old beater taurus tracker that I use for the same purpose you use your j-frame. hell most of the time it has 38 special snake shot in it. That's the primary threat at my place. damn eastern diamond backs. Your j-frame would be just as effective.


Blogger Nate November 18, 2015 11:57 PM  

"I love my 4.25" 1911, but it is damn hard to conceal for 75% of the year."

How is that hard to conceal?

Look kids your'e making to big a deal out of this. 99.999% of the time 99.9999% of the people around you are paying not attention what so ever to you. You don't have to try that hard.

Put a unbottoned short sleeve shirt on and go about your business. Hell just to test this theory I have walked into gas stations with nothing but a t-shirt untucked and pulled over a steyr m40. No one noticed or cared.

People just don't pay attention to you. They are to busy worrying about their phones.

Anonymous Poli_Mis November 18, 2015 11:58 PM  

@117 @119

Must be inflation plus increased demand. I think I bought my SureFire for low $200s. I doubt I would pay that much now.

If Vox wants to ever wants to send his blog stats to the stratosphere, all he ever needs to do is post something gun adjacent every few days. and the rest will take care of itself.

Anonymous Leonidas November 19, 2015 12:24 AM  

@121

It is interesting how people can just freeze in a situation.

This is actually the normal reaction. It's the downside of adrenaline. For all the great things that it does for you, the very first reaction it usually brings on is to cause you to freeze.

A surprisingly large portion of the training that we do in the dojo revolves around training people to do something in that moment. Anything. Once you break through it, most people are fine. But you have to break through it.

Doing even the wrong thing in a situation like this is almost always better than doing nothing. So breaking through the "deer in headlights" moment is critical.

Blogger Noah B #120 November 19, 2015 1:00 AM  

Put a unbottoned short sleeve shirt on and go about your business. Hell just to test this theory I have walked into gas stations with nothing but a t-shirt untucked and pulled over a steyr m40. No one noticed or cared.

Totally true. I've tried about every concealed carry technique known to man, and for the most part, people simply don't notice, even if you're conscientious about that slight bulge on your hip. That includes cops. Shoulder holster, ankle holster, inside the waistband, outside the waistband, in a backpack (where people commonly carry them), briefcase, in a pocket -- they all work well under the right circumstances. If someone is saying a 1911 on their hip is hard to conceal, I don't believe they've actually tried it.

The only exception to this is a fanny pack. I don't know if people think you're carrying a pistol, but you definitely get some strange looks.

Blogger Patrikbc November 19, 2015 1:15 AM  

Be white.

Blogger Bard November 19, 2015 1:20 AM  

Flew through a 2km kill box of anti-aircraft fire in Iraq in '06 under goggles. We got hit from all 4 directions at once with ZSU-34's mounted in the back of pick-up trucks. Time slowed to a crawl or your mind goes into overdrive, I don't know which, but the for the first few seconds, I couldn't believe it. Then I yelled at my crew chiefs to shoot those fuckers because they froze too. Then all hell broke loose. Ballistic armor floor plating saved one crew chief from a kill shot and the other took one at chest height right in the ammo can. When it was over, we were doing 140 knots at 50 ft AGL and I don't remember getting down there. We had a flight recording system at the time called HUMMS. Upon playback for the BN, the other pilots were silent. Both myself and the other aircraft involved exceeded just about every limit on the Black hawk including 130 degree inverted dives. Revisiting that over time, I am dismayed that our first impression was disbelief followed by action, but unless you had seen it before, nothing prepares you for it. We adjusted our training after that.

OpenID Jack Amok November 19, 2015 3:33 AM  

How do you avoid being shot by the police when they arrive?

Well, for starters, don't be a couple of small Asian women in a van when the police are looking for one large Black man in a truck.

Or, as Nate said, don't be there when the cops show up.

Seriously, if you are in an area where combat is occurring... get out. When the police do show up, if gunfire is still going on, they are most likely simply going to contribute to it. You don't want to be flesh existing in an area being inundated with bullets. Get. Out.

Later, if someone asks you why you "fled the scene", you can say "because people were getting shot there! Wouldn't you want to get away too?"

Bottom line, don't stick around any place where bullets or explosives are being use. Get away as fast as you can. If you have to shoot an exit path clear, do so, but getting clear is your priority.

Anonymous Bz November 19, 2015 4:06 AM  

Another good example was that Muslims on a Train attack earlier this year. Those guys with a bit of training took the creep down (while unarmed) while the other passengers froze.

Blogger JP November 19, 2015 4:52 AM  

During our transition from Apartheid to "democracy", a group of ANC terrorists armed with assault rifles (actual, full auto's) pulled this same shit in a church. A guy named Charl van Wyk managed to successfully fight back using a 5 shot .38 revolver.

This does not mean a .38 5 shot is the ideal gun, but unexpected armed opposition is much more effective than what the movies will lead you to believe. Plus, he was alone. If there were more of him, the resistance would have been even more effective.

Blogger Rusty Fife November 19, 2015 5:42 AM  

@198 Bz

Yes, the American airman (I should insert some motto yell here; but...motto != USAF) & soldier eventually took the guy down. However, the first two to engage the guy were a French banker and an expat American university professor. Granted, the young guys didn't see them first.

The interesting response came from the professor's wife. He charged they guy so she and the kids could get away; and she froze instead.

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