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Tuesday, November 24, 2015

WWIII: the second shot

The Paris attacks was the first shot being fired. The downing of a Russian SU-24 by NATO is the second. I have no doubt that the USA will frantically protest that Turkey, not NATO, is responsible, but when Putin responds, the USA will be treaty-bound to defend Turkey. This is why the Founding Fathers warned against "entangling alliances", as they tend to outsource one's diplomatic and wartime decision-making at the very worst possible times.
A Russian Su-24 fighter has been shot down in Syria, Russian Defense Ministry said, adding the plane hadn’t violated Turkish airspace and was at an altitude of 6,000 meters.
If you haven't read much about the leadup to past world wars, what you should understand is that they never look like anything out of the ordinary at first. However, unlike the previous world wars, this looks like one that will genuinely span the globe, as the jihadists have been permitted to infiltrate every country and nation, from China to Iceland, while China is poised to not only invade Taiwan, but claim the entire South China Sea and spread out across Africa.

About the only place we can expect to escape the global conflict is South America, as La Raza Cósmica is more vicious and more capable than the mujahideen while simultaneously being devoid of any semblance of white guilt or mercy. The jihadists wouldn't last five minutes against the cartels.

As Nicolas Taleb has observed, the one place the immigrants have failed to find any footing in Italy is where the mafias rule.

This doesn't mean that Russia and the USA are going to start shooting at each other immediately, it merely means that another domino has fallen.

UPDATE: All right, this may be more than just another domino falling. I doubt that Putin will fail to respond to this sort of behavior by the Turks:
Turkmen forces in Syria shot dead the two pilots of a Russian jet downed by Turkish warplanes near the border with Turkey on Tuesday as they descended with parachutes, a deputy commander of a Turkmen brigade told reporters.

"Both of the pilots were retrieved dead. Our comrades opened fire into the air and they died in the air," Alpaslan Celik, a deputy commander in a Syrian Turkmen brigade said near the Syrian village of Yamadi as he held what he said was a piece of a pilot's parachute. 
UPDATE II: The news just keeps getting worse. It looks like we know who is supporting ISIS and who is not.
Russian helicopter SHOT DOWN while searching for downed jet
UPDATE III: Putin's response: "A stab in the back by the accomplices of terrorism."
    “The loss today is a stab in the back, carried out by the accomplices of terrorists. I can’t describe it in any other way.”

    “Our aircraft was downed over the territory of Syria, using air-to-air missile from a Turkish F-16. It fell on the Syrian territory 4km from Turkey.”

    “Neither our pilots nor our jet threatened the territory of Turkey.”

    “Today’s tragic event will have significant consequences, including for Russia-Turkish relations ... Instead of immediately getting in contact with us, as far as we know, the Turkish side immediately turned to their partners from Nato to discuss this incident, as if we shot down their plane and not they ours.”

    “Do they want to make Nato serve ISIS? ... We hope that the international community will find the strength to come together and fight against the common evil.”

UPDATE IV: Yeah, I'll bet Erdogan called an emergency meeting.
Turkey’s President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan has called an emergency security meeting involving his top generals, heads of intelligence, Prime Minister Davutoğlu and other senior ministers.

Labels:

299 Comments:

1 – 200 of 299 Newer› Newest»
Blogger CJ November 24, 2015 4:44 AM  

Vox, why do you consider the cartels more capable than the jihadis?

Blogger Phillip George November 24, 2015 4:47 AM  

God bless the Mafia and all Honourable societies with a fear for Jesus Christ. Vox. I'm still shaking my head at the stupidity of using Islam in a proxy war. The quran is blasphemy, end of story. But Vladimir Putin is too sharp to be sucked in by crude provocations. It will be something no-one sees coming. IMHO. Russians have long memories. Afghanistan and Chechnya are still being quietly dealt with.

Blogger Shimshon November 24, 2015 4:48 AM  

It makes no sense that Russia would willfully violate Turkey's airspace, as Turkey claims. Especially for it to continue for a full five minutes. Russia is seeking to support Assad, not openly engage with a Nato ally. This strikes more as outright Turkish aggression, especially since Erdogan is so clearly and openly jockeying for war. If so, how could Putin let this stand without a response?

Blogger #0006 Hammer November 24, 2015 4:51 AM  

"As Nicolas Taleb has observed, the one place the immigrants have failed to find any footing in Italy is where the mafias rule."

Some time ago (maybe some years by now) you had a post, the specific topic I do not recall, but wherein you mentioned something to the effect that governments will lose control and the "warlord" with the biggest/most guns who can provide protection will rule.
(I've searched but cannot for the life of me find that post.)

OpenID crazdmadman November 24, 2015 4:53 AM  

Wonder if the Russians were bombing Turk backed rebels...

I am still a bit surprised that the Turks havent pushed their border a few miles south in a few places.

Blogger Rory Porth November 24, 2015 4:58 AM  

Putin is responding....

http://app.debka.com/n/article/25032/Massive-Russian-blanket-air-bombardment-is-flattening-Raqqa

Blogger Eric November 24, 2015 5:45 AM  

I'm surprised the Turks would actually pull the trigger. The Russians will have to respond, somehow.

Blogger Markku November 24, 2015 5:51 AM  

The Russians do this to us ALL the friggin' time. We have pretty much learned to ignore it because we don't dare shoot them down. It was the first time for Turkey, so they did the beginner mistake. They'll pay.

Blogger Cataline Sergius November 24, 2015 6:17 AM  

I think Putin is too dedicated to realpolitik to blow this one out proportion.

Although given how much of a dead letter NATO is while Obama is president, we may see the reconsecration of the Hagia Sophia as a church before next year is out.

Blogger Cataline Sergius November 24, 2015 6:17 AM  

There is the concern that Obama will spearhead a diplomatic mission. Look for the United States to get sucked into a war in the Russian Federated Republic of Alaska in that case.

Blogger Markku November 24, 2015 6:17 AM  

Russia may be calculating that this is the last time they can have Obama as their opponent instead of someone competent, so they want to start the war now instead of later.

Blogger Hammerli280 November 24, 2015 6:24 AM  

Russia has no interest in a war against NATO. But extending their hold into Turkey? They've wanted control of the Dardannelles for over 600 years.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan November 24, 2015 6:27 AM  

Obama is a mental head case and what power he can wield is to be used against conservative whites. The "security" establishment are pure anti-Russian so look for them to escalate, and I look for them to finally overcome Obama's timidity on this going forward.

Blogger VD November 24, 2015 6:28 AM  

Vox, why do you consider the cartels more capable than the jihadis?

Because they observably are. They achieve more than the jihadis do while engendering less opposition.

Blogger Stilicho #0066 November 24, 2015 6:28 AM  

The dangerous part is this: Putin plays to ein, Obama plays to win approval.

Blogger Markku November 24, 2015 6:38 AM  

I'd even say Putin plays to zwei.

Blogger James Higham November 24, 2015 6:42 AM  

It establishes some things clearly - Turkey is pro-ISIS, yet is under NATO's skirts for some bizarre reason, yet will not become EU. Russia has acted in a restrained manner so far and stuck to its targets - ISIS and rebels.

Over here, govt and press are pro-Turkey on this, the vast majority of commenters online for the Russian position.

The divide between rulers and ruled has never been wider.

Anonymous The Kurgan November 24, 2015 6:42 AM  

Markku,
Foxholes and all that. I also realise that by rubbling Raqqua the Russkies are undoubtedly wiping out also the slaves and civilian hostages of the ISIS scum, which is unfortunate, but the Russkies are not doing this in US style ineffective ways. I fully expect them to send i troops after the carpet bombing and literally wipe out ISIS completely. They are sending a message to "terrorists". The immediate ones on the ground (fuck with us and we will wipe you off the Earth) and the more distant commanders (hi Obama, look what happens to your puppets).

Blogger Mr.MantraMan November 24, 2015 6:43 AM  

Odds that Trump goes up in the polls?

Blogger Unknown November 24, 2015 6:43 AM  

There is a strong Shia community close to the Argentina/ Brazilian/Paraguayan border.
Not Al Qaeda / ISIS but remember the bombing of the Jewish center in Argentina...

Blogger Phillip George November 24, 2015 6:44 AM  

perhaps a name change is in order, maybe, Византия from now on.

Blogger Leandro Novaes November 24, 2015 6:44 AM  

You make that comment about the cartels... not two days ago a friend posted on Facebook wall that Brazilians are demonstrably not afraid of the terrorists because the drug lords are way worse than they are.

Blogger Joao Paulo Calife November 24, 2015 6:45 AM  

There is a strong Shia community close to the Argentina/ Brazilian/Paraguayan border.
Not Al Qaeda / ISIS but remember the bombing of the Jewish center in Argentina...

Blogger Joao Paulo Calife November 24, 2015 6:46 AM  

There is a strong Shia community close to the Argentina/ Brazilian/Paraguayan border.
Not Al Qaeda / ISIS but remember the bombing of the Jewish center in Argentina...

Blogger Joao Paulo Calife November 24, 2015 6:46 AM  

There is a strong Shia community close to the Argentina/ Brazilian/Paraguayan border.
Not Al Qaeda / ISIS but remember the bombing of the Jewish center in Argentina...

Anonymous taqiyyologist November 24, 2015 6:49 AM  

I can't stop thinking of the first third of Joel chapter 2, KJV.

For some reason.

Blogger skiballa November 24, 2015 6:51 AM  

While ISIS may be a fan of making executions a public spectacle, the narcos are more than happy to leave your headless body soaking in a barrel of acid in some quiet, out of the way place.

OpenID basementhomebrewer November 24, 2015 6:55 AM  

Tin foil hat theory. Erdogan and Obama are thick as thieves. I wouldn't be surprised if Vlad insulted Obama in some way at the G20 and he put Erdogan up to this. The scary part is considering his love for Erdogan, is he crazy enough to follow through with the invocation of article 5 by Turkey?

Anonymous The Kurgan November 24, 2015 7:02 AM  

Markku,
Foxholes and all that. I also realise that by rubbling Raqqua the Russkies are undoubtedly wiping out also the slaves and civilian hostages of the ISIS scum, which is unfortunate, but the Russkies are not doing this in US style ineffective ways. I fully expect them to send in troops after the carpet bombing and literally wipe out ISIS completely. They are sending a message to "terrorists". The immediate ones on the ground (fuck with us and we will wipe you off the Earth) and the more distant commanders (hi Obama, look what happens to your puppets).

Blogger Mr.MantraMan November 24, 2015 7:12 AM  

#28 I disagree about wiping out ISIS my WAG is that Putin and his gang want ISIS thrown back into Saudi Arabia from where they came.

Blogger Sherwood family November 24, 2015 7:18 AM  

So...this sucks. I am watching the diplomatic parts of this start to play out in real time here. Pray nobody invokes article 5. The United States does not need a war against Russia. If the Russians want to dismember Turkey over this we should feel free to stand aside. That may sound gutless but there is nothing for us to gain in this and a whole lot to lose. NATO would be a dead letter but it has been an answer in search of a question for some time now. There are times to fight wars...this would not be one of them, at least for the U.S.

Anonymous A Visitor November 24, 2015 7:31 AM  

Hell of a way to wake up. A relative seems implicitly to believe that I'm overreacting.

No fan of Putin but this was a foolish move. God help America.

Anonymous RedJack #22 November 24, 2015 7:33 AM  

There was an old prophecy about the Rus coming to Constantinople in the end days. I have been wading into old Byzantine end times prophecies lately, and they are at least as interesting as anything the west produces.

On a strategic front, I would love to know what Martin V. thinks about this.

Anonymous ZaltysKaralius November 24, 2015 7:34 AM  

Not sure if you've seen it already, but Russia made a smart move by announcing that the airplane was shot with an Ground-To-Air missile while not in Turkey territory.

I believe that this is a brilliant move in order to prevent NATO involvement, and the US/NATO is quite likely to support this idea instead of backing Turkey, if politiks allow it:

"Hey Turkey, Russia says that someone shot down their plane from the ground whilst doing a sortie over Syria. I know you're mad about them bombing all the Turks in Syrian villages, so don't be so emotional again and take credit where it is not due. Right? RIGHT?"

Blogger ZhukovG November 24, 2015 7:39 AM  

Obama will do precisely what he is told to do. His spine or lack thereof is not a consideration.

This was an extremely foolish move by the Turks. I don't care if a Russian plane was doing victory rolls over Ankara, the Turks should have held their fire, assumed vodka, and made an official protest. As it is, I doubt the Russians were across the Turkish border.

Markku, I am pretty sure that both Helsinki and Moscow have each other on speed dial, for dealing with little incidents.

Blogger ScuzzaMan November 24, 2015 7:39 AM  

@28

James Dale Davison and William (Lord) Rees-Mogg made this point in their excellent book "The Great Reckoning".

As they related: in 1912, in Outer Mongolia, as far from civilisation as one could get, American traders protected their camel trains by a very cheap and effective method; they purchased and flew the Union Jack. Even in Outer Mongolia the locals had learned that to prey on British traders had consequences that were immediate and invariably lethal.

It cost the British at that time approximately 1 million pounds sterling per year to police their Empire.

Fast forward to 1990 and it was costing the Americans approximately 1 billion US dollars PER DAY to police roughly the same Empire, and to fly the US flag in many parts of the world was to invite attack.

People haven't changed. As the late Robert L Kocher observed, fear of messing with you is the only thing some people understand.

Blogger ScuzzaMan November 24, 2015 7:42 AM  

@30

Historically, the worst time to start a world war has been exactly when they've been started.

You can do the math.

Blogger Salt November 24, 2015 7:43 AM  

The Mafia has offered NYC its services against ISIS.

Blogger Sherwood family November 24, 2015 7:45 AM  

ZhukovG, precisely. Better for the Turks to have used this incident to achieve something useful. Shooting a Russian aircraft out of the sky is not useful. If they don't think that the Russians will find a way to make them pay for it they are stupid. But having shot the plane down, the only worse thing they could do would be to try to escalate the situation. Which is what I fully expect them to do. I hope we tell them that they are on their own and invoking article 5 will not get them anything due to their own stupidity.

Blogger ScuzzaMan November 24, 2015 7:49 AM  

Article 5 is a defensive clause. It doesn't oblige NATO to respond if you commit an act of aggressive warfare contrary to UN treaty and international law.

NATO signatories are only obliged to defend you if you are attacked in such a manner.

Turkey has a busted flush and they're facing five aces ...

Blogger Stephen Davenport November 24, 2015 7:50 AM  

Good for the Turks, it sounds like some of the commenters in here are saying the Turks have no right to defend their airspace. Is that what you are saying? We do not want to piss of the Russians? The Russians have been doing this for several months now by Turkey and today Turkey called them on it. Good for Turkey, there will be no World War 3 here, the Russians will run their mouths for a bit but do nothing because their military is not really that good and they know it.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother November 24, 2015 7:56 AM  

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/621677/Reports-Russian-helicopter-shot-down-while-searching-downed-jets

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother November 24, 2015 7:58 AM  

EU: LET'S START A WAR IN NOVEMBER AGAINST THE GUY THAT HEATS OUR CONTINENT.

Blogger Steve, the Dark Ninja of Mockery November 24, 2015 8:02 AM  

I ain't worried.

And I'll tell you for why: wars start because someone wants them to.

Yes, the assassination of Franz Ferdinand and so on were the proximate causes of WW1, but the root cause was that Britain, France, and Germany were spoiling for a fight.

WW2 started because Germany was spoiling for another fight.

So this Russian plane will only be the new Jenkins' Ear if Russia and/or NATO wants it to be. I can't see Obama wanting a direct confrontation with Russia, and I can't see Putin wanting to take on NATO.

If someone less emotionally stable was US President, like John McCain, or Putin was replaced with an exciteable clown in the mould of Krushchev, things would be dicier.

That's assuming some commander out in the field somewhere doesn't go nuts and do something very stupid, and further assuming this isn't all a masterful marketing tie-in for Fallout 4.

Blogger ZhukovG November 24, 2015 8:08 AM  

I wonder, is the situation in Turkey so precarious in regards to the Kurds that Ankara is trying to force a crisis to ensure support by NATO.

Or, is Erdogen's government losing control of the Turkish military?

Blogger JP November 24, 2015 8:09 AM  

I just want to know whether this makes my Turkish shotgun more, or less, valuable.

Blogger Skylark Thibedeau November 24, 2015 8:15 AM  

Time to start calling Istanbul Constantinople again. There is no Anglo American Balance of Power force to stop Russia from finally acheving her dream of Warm Water access to the Mediterranean Sea.

Anonymous Viidad November 24, 2015 8:16 AM  

Christendom must reclaim Constantinople. Perhaps soon.

Blogger Student in Blue November 24, 2015 8:17 AM  

@ScuzzaMan
Article 5 is a defensive clause. It doesn't oblige NATO to respond if you commit an act of aggressive warfare contrary to UN treaty and international law.

That's why Turkey is trying to claim that Russia was violating their airspace. They'll attempt to spin it as Russia aggressively flying into Turkey and provoking them.

tl;dr: If Obama wants it to happen, he'll make up some bullshit reason and evidence and force us to go.

Blogger Skylark Thibedeau November 24, 2015 8:19 AM  

Vox, why do you consider the cartels more capable than the jihadis?

Last week Anonymous went after the ISIS websites and took them down. A few years ago they tried the same thing wit the Cartels and several members of Anonymous got emails with their home addresses warning them to stop. The Cartel can hire better Hackers.

Blogger Student in Blue November 24, 2015 8:20 AM  

@Steve DNM
So this Russian plane will only be the new Jenkins' Ear if Russia and/or NATO wants it to be. I can't see Obama wanting a direct confrontation with Russia, and I can't see Putin wanting to take on NATO.

...then why has the media spin in the US been about how Putin = Hitler for the past year or so? I'm pretty sure the establishment is spoiling for a fight.

Blogger The Original Hermit November 24, 2015 8:20 AM  

@47 "Christendom must reclaim Constantinople. Perhaps soon."

Let's you and him fight. We'll just stay out of your way.

Blogger Shimshon November 24, 2015 8:28 AM  

Latest on ZeroHedge is that FSA claims to have shot down a Russian helicopter dispatched to search for the pilots.

Blogger jla November 24, 2015 8:31 AM  

This is a game both Israel and Turkey have been playing for years now. Until now, however, the pilots have all been Syrian. Their airspace seems to extend over Syrian land. Odd that.

Blogger ScuzzaMan November 24, 2015 8:31 AM  

@48

I am sure you're right. After all, the USA claims the right to launch aggressive acts of war in any nation where they consider terrorists to be, with total impunity.

Of course a permanent seat on the UN Security Council, courtesy of the world's greatest nuclear arsenal, buys a fair bit of impunity.

But all actions have consequences.

Sometimes they take a while to come around ... is all.

Blogger Student in Blue November 24, 2015 8:32 AM  

@48
tl;dr: If Obama wants it to happen, he'll make up some bullshit reason and evidence and force us to go.

I'm amending this to say, all that needs to happen is a general thought that it was defensive, whether or not it technically is. Rhetorically defensive, not dialectically defensive. And it seems to me that there is a search for the right rhetoric that makes the US go into war with Russia while being the "good guys".

Anonymous That Would Be Telling November 24, 2015 8:33 AM  

While this further demonstrates that Erdogan is an idiot, after looking at the claimed flight path I have to take some satisfaction given what the Soviets did to KAL 007 (they shot it down after it had exited their airspace).

Blogger Steve, the Dark Ninja of Mockery November 24, 2015 8:35 AM  

Student - then why has the media spin in the US been about how Putin = Hitler for the past year or so? I'm pretty sure the establishment is spoiling for a fight.

The media establishment, sure. Because gay rights, or something.

Even so, it's nothing compared to the monstering of Slobodan Milosevic or the drumbeat against Saddam Hussein, Muammar Gadaffi, or Bashar al-Assad.

Putin's treatment by the Western press is somewhere between Pope Benedict XVI and Sarah Palin.

I reckon the US political establishment has no appetite for WW3. Because why would they? They just want their colour coded revolutions and proxies to do the dirty work for them. They'd love to replace Putin with somebody more pliable, but wishes aren't ICBM's.

Anonymous kimber November 24, 2015 8:47 AM  

You sure about Italy? I was there this summer and you couldn't walk five feet without hitting a young African male trying to shake you down by selling you a selfie stick, watch of phone charger. Larger city, small town, it didn't matter--they were everywhere. That was before the boats started coming and before the invasion started. Italy may not be getting hit as hard but it was sure beginning to not feel like any Italy I have visited before.

Blogger Hammerli280 November 24, 2015 8:52 AM  

NATO will probably wash its hands of this one.

Airspace violations are rare, but not unheard of. They're considered extremely bad manners (as in the pilot's superiors will ground him for a long time), but it's equally rude to shoot down someone unless it's truly egregious.

Blogger JP November 24, 2015 8:53 AM  

You sure about Italy?

I'm pretty sure he mentioned it was the Mob strongholds that lacked "diversity".

Anonymous Randy M November 24, 2015 9:06 AM  

"EU: LET'S START A WAR IN NOVEMBER AGAINST THE GUY THAT HEATS OUR CONTINENT."

IOW, Russia finds a way to use its famous defensive weapon offensively?

Blogger Stephen Davenport November 24, 2015 9:11 AM  

"NATO will probably wash its hands of this one." Then disband NATO, they did not shoot the jet down for the hell of it, the Russians had been doing this for several months now. Do not assume the Russians were honorable here, they were arrogant and disregarded Turkish warnings of what would happen if it continued. Turkey called them on it and at least one pilot paid for it with his life. Starting to see reports that a helo may have been shot down as well. Russian body count is rising, the black tulip flies again.

Blogger ScuzzaMan November 24, 2015 9:16 AM  

@62

Every time you comment my opinion of you falls further. Of course you're not obliged to give a flying fuck, but I thought you might want to know.

I look forward to reading your back history of comments on how Syria should shoot down US, French, Australian, British, etc, aircraft in their airspace.

Because logical consistency is a quite useful concept.

To some.

Blogger Alexander November 24, 2015 9:18 AM  

We are going to go to war with Russia in order to protect Muslims...

Okay, historical precedence there. Not the first time Europe has screwed that particular pooch.

Doing so while you are dependent on Russia for your energy, while Islam is in a period of expansion, and fueled by several years of media outrage that Russia isn't pro-gay enough...

These are new and exciting variables that will no doubt bring nothing but joy and bounty upon us.

Anonymous Rhys O'Reilly November 24, 2015 9:19 AM  

America and Russia ought to be allied against islam.

For those of you in America, do you believe that Americans will ever support a war against Russia on behalf of islam?

@ 49. Skylark Thibedeau

Last week Anonymous went after the ISIS websites and took them down. A few years ago they tried the same thing wit the Cartels and several members of Anonymous got emails with their home addresses warning them to stop. The Cartel can hire better Hackers.

Just wait until Islamic State gets Ahmed involved. Anonymous has nothing on Clock Boy. He trolled the president.

Blogger Markku November 24, 2015 9:20 AM  

Here's a chart of Finnish airspace violations by military planes. Civil planes are not counted.

2009 | 3 times | Sweden
2010 | 2 times | ?
2011 | 4 times | ?
2012 | 3 times | ?
2013 | 3 times | Russia
2014 | 6 times (ongoing; year had not ended when chart released) | Russia 5, one unknown

Blogger Nate November 24, 2015 9:26 AM  

At a time of global jihad... the notion that the US and Russia should war against each other is possibly the most insane idea imaginable.

if a democrat or a neo con gets elected though... it will escalate to that.

Blogger Student in Blue November 24, 2015 9:28 AM  

@Steve DNM
Putin's treatment by the Western press is somewhere between Pope Benedict XVI and Sarah Palin.

They've been trying to demonize Putin in order to justify a war. The rhetorical charges haven't been quite sticking, so hence the wishy washy back-and-forth.

I think it's because it was so easy to demonize them (Hussein, et al), that the US felt confident they could sway the public to war, and so went ahead and did so.

Why would US establishment want to go to war anyway? I'm chalking it up to that mistaken belief that going to war in a foreign country = good for your economy. In addition, the rainbow brigade would like to enforce Gay-Sharia Law in as many countries as they can, which would happen quickest by force, the upper brass in the military get promoted far faster and get a bigger budget in war, and Obama gets to stop Russia from killing his Muslim brothers.

Blogger Markku November 24, 2015 9:32 AM  

Found the one unknown of 2014 from a more recent source. It was France.

Blogger Student in Blue November 24, 2015 9:34 AM  

@Rhys O'Reilly
For those of you in America, do you believe that Americans will ever support a war against Russia on behalf of islam?

It would never, ever be phrased that way. That's why they're angling for "We must support our NATO allies!" instead.

Blogger Alexander November 24, 2015 9:38 AM  

@65

For Islam, no.

But it won't be fed to us that way. It will be fed as the evil anti-gay leader who stole land from Ukraine and Georgia, our valiant allies, and who now seeks to help Assad... who is actually the leader of ISIS... and did I mention that he kills the gays?

The neo-cons will leave out most of the gay stuff and replace it with more Crimea, Russia monopolizing global power in the strategic oil area, and we have to fight there to avoid fighting here.

Also, NATO Commitments! NATO is double-plus important for neo-cons, because it lets them play the "once the USSR, always the USSR" card.

There'd be less support than a decade ago, but that's balanced with the fact that democracy doesn't mean shit anymore. They'd have 'enough' support.

Anonymous DT November 24, 2015 9:39 AM  

And I thought I was in a bad mode when I woke up this morning.

My neocon friends/family will either remain ignorant of this, or twist it to mean that Putin is Hitler and we need WWIII because Carly/Rubio/Bush/McCain/Christie said so.

Me? This absolutely chills me to the bone.

I've had to learn a lot over the years. Swallow some hard red pills. But one thing I understood when the Soviet Union dissolved: with the Soviet threat gone the U.S. needed to disband or exit NATO. Absent the Soviets NATO was not security, it was a major threat to peace and stability.

Nope. We ran NATO right up to Russia's front door while screaming "neener neener neeeeener!" like a damn child.

I can only hope and pray that this does not escalate.

Blogger Unknown November 24, 2015 9:40 AM  

@65: I'm in America, in a part that was purchased from Russia. If Russia were definitely Christian, definitely not. But I definitely can't see that Russia is definitely a Christian state. On the other hand, any war in support of any mohammedans will never have my support.

Blogger Stephen Davenport November 24, 2015 9:40 AM  

"Every time you comment my opinion of you falls further" What you want a cookie or something?

Blogger Jourdan November 24, 2015 9:42 AM  

Word here in Washington is that NATO is meeting on a emergency basis in Brussels this afternoon at Turkey's request. Let us hope that cool heads prevail.

The world of USG business aside, I cannot imagine any scenario under which the American people would support a war against Russia other than an overt invasion by Russia of the "core" NATO states, which definitely does not include Turkey.

Blogger Stephen Davenport November 24, 2015 9:42 AM  

For the Scuzzman, last I saw the US are are part of NATO, Russia is not. We also did not want the Russians involved there for exactly this reason. Crack open a book, son.

Blogger totenhenchen November 24, 2015 9:44 AM  

It’s occurred to me to take the video down and let these assholes find it somewhere else, but I feel like that’s giving in to them.

Doing the perfectly reasonable and sensible thing is giving the bad guys what they want. Apparently, the train us still fine.

Blogger luagha November 24, 2015 9:46 AM  

#43 You sadly forget the Obama Axiom: Obama will always do whatever is worst for the United States.

Blogger S1AL November 24, 2015 9:50 AM  

@Markku - Sounds like violating Finnish airspace is just good fun for everyone. Right up until boots on the ground, then it's only fun for the Finns.

OpenID genericviews November 24, 2015 9:51 AM  

"Treaty-bound to defend Turkey" does not mean what you think it means. Sending 50 military lawyers as our contribution to their defense is just as much compliant as sending every adult male capable of bearing arms.

Blogger Mastermind November 24, 2015 9:53 AM  

"Shimshon November 24, 2015 4:48 AM
It makes no sense that Russia would willfully violate Turkey's airspace, as Turkey claims."

It makes perfect sense, not only does Russia violate other countries' airspace as a matter of routine, they've violated Turkey's airspace before and were warned of what would happen if they did it again. In this particular case it's even more complicated because Turkey and Syria have a border dispute so what constitutes "Turkish airspace" is not the same on both countries' maps.

Blogger VD November 24, 2015 9:55 AM  

This was an extremely foolish move by the Turks. I don't care if a Russian plane was doing victory rolls over Ankara, the Turks should have held their fire, assumed vodka, and made an official protest.

Talk about compounding the error: "Turkmen forces in Syria shot dead the two pilots of a Russian jet downed by Turkish warplanes near the border with Turkey on Tuesday as they descended with parachutes, a deputy commander of a Turkmen brigade told reporters."

Blogger ScuzzaMan November 24, 2015 9:55 AM  

@76

Yep. You didn't disappoint.

Dad.

Blogger ScuzzaMan November 24, 2015 9:56 AM  

@82:

just saw that on RT.

Incredibly stupid wanton provocation.

Blogger Jourdan November 24, 2015 9:58 AM  

Perhaps Trump should consider hiring a Turkish division to guard the southern border.

OpenID genericviews November 24, 2015 9:58 AM  

@8 Markku...... because we don't dare shoot them down

Because we don't CARE about shooting them down. Heck, give them landing and port visitation permits. Let their sailors and pilots get drunk in our bars while our fuel techs refuel their planes and ships. There is no cold war. We were against the Russians because they were communists, not because they were Russian. Now they aren't communists, our own government is.

Blogger Shimshon November 24, 2015 9:59 AM  

@82 Vox, we now know the next city after Raqqa that Russia is going to level.

Blogger The Other Robot November 24, 2015 10:00 AM  

Putin: Downing of Russian jet over Syria stab in the back by terrorist accomplices

Blogger Markku November 24, 2015 10:03 AM  

Pravda:

----

According to Yevseyev, if such an incident happens again, Russia will proceed to taking retaliatory measures against Turkish interceptor aircraft. In addition, Russia may extend the range of air defense in Syria to be able to intercept Turkish military aircraft that reportedly invade the airspace of Syria periodically.

"If Turkey continues its provocative actions, it is highly probable that incidents of this kind may happen again, albeit to Turkish aircraft. If Turkey takes no measures to prevent this kind of incident in the future - there are such agreements between Russia and the United States - then Turkey can expect a very tough response," said Vladimir Yevseyev.

Blogger ZhukovG November 24, 2015 10:05 AM  

@82. VD

Putin is going to be under real pressure to do something substantial about this. Some in the Duma were already calling for breaking off diplomatic relations with Turkey.

Blogger Markku November 24, 2015 10:06 AM  

I think Russia should go to total war. If it turns out thermonuclear, so be it.

Blogger Stephen Davenport November 24, 2015 10:08 AM  

Listening to some of you and you can see why the Russians do what they do. Nobody stands up to them and they do what they want, now Turks finally stand up against them and some of you are about to piss your pants about it. Good for the Turks and the Ukrainians too, they stood up to them when nobody else would. The Russians are not going to be able to do much about it, except gnash their teeth or maybe bait the Turkish Air Force into a trap of some sort ( ie escort bombers into Turkish air space, etc.). The Russians are not stupid, the maybe arrogant they do not want a shooting war with NATO or Turkey.

Anonymous Ratdog November 24, 2015 10:10 AM  

Clarification:

A Turkoman (Turkmen) is not a Turk. Turkmenistani is not Turkish. Turkmenistan is not Turkey.

I'm wondering if the journalist who wrote the article in the first update didn't get his demonyms mixed up.

Blogger Student in Blue November 24, 2015 10:11 AM  

In addition, Russia may extend the range of air defense in Syria to be able to intercept Turkish military aircraft that reportedly invade the airspace of Syria periodically. [...]

"If Turkey takes no measures to prevent this kind of incident in the future - there are such agreements between Russia and the United States - then Turkey can expect a very tough response"


Well played, Yevseyev. Well played indeed.

Such provocations makes me think that Turkey wants Russia to chimp out, meanwhile this response is a rhetorical victory and gives Russia the moral upper hand.

Anonymous Brother Thomas November 24, 2015 10:11 AM  

@92

You're a naive fool.

Blogger ZhukovG November 24, 2015 10:14 AM  

@89. Markku

Don't worry Herr Kaiser, the Serbs have no choice but to back down. There will be no war.

Blogger IM2L844 November 24, 2015 10:17 AM  

Obama: "Pshaw. This is just another unfortunate setback. My policy is working. Go Hillary. It's your time!"

Anonymous Hrw-500 November 24, 2015 10:17 AM  

@46. Slylark Thibedeau.

"Time to start calling Istanbul Constantinople again."

And time to play the song "Istanbul (Not Constantinople)" made by the Four Lads or the cover version made by the band "They Might be Giants" unless we sing "Constantinople (Not Istanbul)". ;-)

Anonymous Roundtine November 24, 2015 10:17 AM  

Turkey has been mainly using their bombing raids into Iraq to hit Kurds, not ISIS. Turkey supports anti-Assad forces. Russia used some of their bombing raids against Syrian rebels, not ISIS. Turkey shoots down a Russian jet. Turkey is increasingly a radical Islamic state thanks to democracy. Let's make things real interesting and have CIA help Golden Dawn take over Greece.

Anonymous karsten November 24, 2015 10:20 AM  

Wow. Spot the neocon:

(((Stephen Davenport)))

Guaranteed, pace the name.

Every. Single. Time.

Blogger Student in Blue November 24, 2015 10:22 AM  

The area where the Russian Jet was shot down was controlled by Free Syrian Army, which is directly bankrolled by the CIA apparently.

The moderate Muslim rebels that would surely usher in peace if they toppled Assad, crowed about how Allah is great when they saw the dead Russian pilot.

Blogger Lukas Brunnor November 24, 2015 10:23 AM  

Looks like they really stepped in the shit this time. The only way to avoid a global war now is for NATO to do to Turkey what was done to Georgia: disavow any aggression as the act of single a single nation and stand back as Russia levels them.

Blogger ZhukovG November 24, 2015 10:23 AM  

@91. Markku

While I am really enjoying playing Fallout 4, I am not enjoying it that much.

Blogger VD November 24, 2015 10:23 AM  

Listening to some of you and you can see why the Russians do what they do. Nobody stands up to them and they do what they want, now Turks finally stand up against them and some of you are about to piss your pants about it.

Russia isn't the problem. Both the global jihad and the US government are bigger problems.

Blogger Markku November 24, 2015 10:25 AM  

While I am really enjoying playing Fallout 4, I am not enjoying it that much.

I don't wish for that eventuality, but the risk should not prevent Russia from a massive retaliation.

Blogger Stephen Davenport November 24, 2015 10:29 AM  

Wow. Spot the neocon:

(((Stephen Davenport)))

Guaranteed, pace the name.

Every. Single. Time.

Thanks for the compliment Karsten....:o)

Anonymous DT November 24, 2015 10:29 AM  

@92 Listening to some of you and you can see why the Russians do what they do. Nobody stands up to them and they do what they want, now Turks finally stand up against them and some of you are about to piss your pants about it.

What do the Russians do? Bomb Muslims? Why would I want to "stand up" to them for that? Hell, I would probably donate money to them if they had a Kickstarter.

"Let the Russians fight them over there so we don't have to fight them over here" is a nice upgrade to the original neocon strategy. And given Russian brutality, it might even work!

To the point at hand: did the Su-24 actually violate their airspace? If so, did it immediately and peacefully leave? Because unless it was setting up for a bombing run or locking missile radar on a Turkish jet, Turkey's response was excessive and dangerous. I was a child at the time, but I'm old enough to remember the Soviets shooting down a wayward airliner that was leaving. It was wrong for them and it's wrong for Turkey.

If that plane never did violate Turkish airspace then God help them, because they have ZERO excuse for an act of naked aggression against a nuclear power.

And Turkey "standing up to" Russia is all in the name of jihadis. Explain to me please why the hell Turkey is our alley and not Russia given the global situation, if you can do so without using the words "new Hitler."

The Russians are not stupid, the maybe arrogant they do not want a shooting war with NATO or Turkey.

Given the current president of the United States if Putin was really Hitler he would be marching troops into Alaska as we speak.

Blogger ZhukovG November 24, 2015 10:29 AM  

@106. Markku

I know you don't. Who would?

I just think that for now the politely worded ultimatum is as far as they need to go.

OpenID ymarsakar November 24, 2015 10:30 AM  

The US Regime currently exists because of Leftist proponents, online and offline, who helped sabotage Operation Iraqi Freedom, which was supposed to have several strategic leverages inside the Middle East. Something which Russia also has in the part of a weaker Syria.

By allowing the Leftist alliance to gain power by sabotaging wars like Vietnam or Iraq, whether started by Democrats or not, the United States and Russia will go on an inevitable course to the world's fate.

4th gen warfare does not advocate frontal assaults smashing yourself against the superpowers, but the Leftist alliance has outplayed the world with their anti Vietnam and anti Iraq propaganda before. And they will do so again, even if that means supporting Turkey, the Caliphate, or Islamic Jihad.

If people wanted things to take a different turn, only two wars in the US had the possibility of breaking the Left's power stranglehold: Vietnam and Iraq. Ironically, no matter how much money people have online or how many followers, you can't buy time.

Blogger Stephen Davenport November 24, 2015 10:34 AM  

DT regardless of the imbecile in the oval office, the Russians are not that good dude.

Blogger Lovekraft November 24, 2015 10:36 AM  

Turkey is the armpit of Europe/Asia.

Blogger Student in Blue November 24, 2015 10:38 AM  

@ymarsakar

Operation Iraqi Freedom was pretty much doomed to fail from the beginning regardless, because Arabs gonna Arab. No conspiracy-theory-level-powerful Leftist Alliance required.

Blogger Nate November 24, 2015 10:38 AM  

"Listening to some of you and you can see why the Russians do what they do. Nobody stands up to them and they do what they want, now Turks finally stand up against them and some of you are about to piss your pants about it."

I am amazed that you were able to stop licking the window long enough to bang this out with two fingers.

Blogger Student in Blue November 24, 2015 10:40 AM  

@Stephen Davenport
DT regardless of the imbecile in the oval office, the Russians are not that good dude.

Instead of addressing the rhetorical throwaway at the end, why don't you actually address the meat of his argument?

Oh wait, you can't dispute it.

Blogger Positive Dennis November 24, 2015 10:40 AM  

If you want an idea of how many, maybe most, will respond, read Stephen's posts.

It is doubtful that any of us will know if the plane violated Turkish airspace. We can't trust anything released by any government. But we do know without dispute that when the plane was shot down it was in Syria and returning to its base. The pilots parachuted into Syria.

Blogger Nate November 24, 2015 10:41 AM  

WWIII is here. The US has a few options on how to fight it. The best option is

A) Kick Turkey out of NATO.

B) Align with Russia completely.

C) merrily commence to stomping whatever ass needs stomped.

Blogger Jourdan November 24, 2015 10:42 AM  

Okay, now that a few people have mentioned it, let's get down to the REAL issue at hand: should my companion be Dogmeat or Codsworth early game?

Anonymous DT November 24, 2015 10:44 AM  

@111 DT regardless of the imbecile in the oval office, the Russians are not that good dude.

I would love to hear Vox comment on the implication in your post that idiocy in command has no real bearing on the outcome of war.

I would also like you to answer this question: should a nation shoot down another nation's fighter for an airspace violation when said fighter has already left and made no aggressive moves during the violation?

Anonymous DT November 24, 2015 10:48 AM  

@117 How do we get Nate as VP on Trump's ticket?

Blogger RC November 24, 2015 10:51 AM  

Just another power monger overplaying his hand, version #10326, but NATO membership alters their decision calculus in dangerous ways. And now we have improvident alliances and treaties being administered and weighed by compromised, ahistorical, arrogant neocons.

OpenID ymarsakar November 24, 2015 10:54 AM  

"Operation Iraqi Freedom was pretty much doomed to fail from the beginning regardless, because Arabs gonna Arab. No conspiracy-theory-level-powerful Leftist Alliance required."

@113

That depends on what you think the strategy was about.

1. Removing WMD proliferation from terrorist hands to ensure American homeland isn't attacked from 2003-2008. The number of terrorist attacks and cells in the US, who failed to be captured or stopped, went up during the anti iraq regime that is Hussein Obola. Ft Hood 1 and Nidal Hasan is a good starting point. WMD proliferation was slowed, but not stopped, which is why the Democrats that sabotaged Iraq to get more Americans killed, released funding to Iran, to help them along.

2. Having secular locals and Kurds and Shia/Sunnis in Iraq to fight terrorists is a better population stop gap than trying to fight terrorists by stopping them inside Europe, Canada, or the US. So long as the fight is isolated there, every single AQ mastermind will either get killed or intel will be captured so that the cells in the US are exposed. Which is why the FBI captured several operations in the US before they were completed. The other operations during Bush II was stopped by civilians.

3. The third strategic leverage would be COIN and increasing military efficiency, which Hussein and the Democrats cracked open by destroying the Navy, the Marines, the Air Force, and the Army at the same time using diversity. COIN in the military or non military sense, would be extremely effective against Democrat fiefdoms in the US, to liberate the oppressed. For obvious reasons, no slave owner in the US wants that kind of experience and knowledge to get out, especially in the US military full of patriots.

If what people wanted was a short victorious war, find some WMDs, and declare that they have "won", then they lost the war before it was even begun. But the game plan is very similar to Vietnam. People thought the Vietnamese "lost" Vietnam as well, or that was it unwinnable by the US. The US was fighting the Leftist alliance inside the US and the communists outside the US, and the Soviets training the communists outside the US, at the same time. Asymmetrical fights are difficult to win, because US patriots weren't allowed to bomb John Kerry and Jane Hanoi, though if they did it would have helped the US side of the war.

Back to Turkey. People probably don't remember this, because they were paying attention to CNN at the time, but OIF was supposed to have two fronts, one from Turkey into Kurdistan to link up with allied forces there to push directly from the north and another from Kuwaitt, the same place used by Norman Schwarz in Desert Storm 1.

The Turks waited until the last moment to go back on whatever agreement people thought they had. They clearly did not want the United States to have an ally as large as Iraq at their backdoor, given what it would mean for the training of the Kurds.

Turkey has been operating more actively lately, especially with the increase in the invasion of Europe with their fake passports and re routing of "Syrians".

If America is not going to fight in the Middle East or invade it, then Russia will be forced to do so. If not Russia, then China. If nobody is left, then the Left will setup a World War III. But WWIII was being setup before 2001 even happened, way before Vox Day got kicked off the SFWA reservation, or I like to call it a plantation but given Vox Day's noted origins the reservation is a better descriptor.

@117
"A) Kick Turkey out of NATO.

B) Align with Russia completely.

C) merrily commence to stomping whatever ass needs stomped."

I doubt the Democrat regime that wants their slave plantations back in the 21st century, is going to do that. They will do another Waco however, Waco 3 this time perhaps, with a goal of killing more patriots.

Blogger Mastermind November 24, 2015 10:55 AM  

"VD: Russia isn't the problem. Both the global jihad and the US government are bigger problems."

Not for Turkey.

Blogger Student in Blue November 24, 2015 10:57 AM  

@Jourdan
Okay, now that a few people have mentioned it, let's get down to the REAL issue at hand: should my companion be Dogmeat or Codsworth early game?

Dogmeat apparently loves to just run into mines.

@Nate

I can only hope it'll work like that when the next person gets elected, but I'm inclined to believe that the goal is to get the US entangled in a war before the next guy is elected.

Blogger The Other Robot November 24, 2015 10:57 AM  

I wouldn't be surprised if the Russians target that village next ...

Blogger Culture War Draftee November 24, 2015 11:01 AM  

Gee, who do I trust less? Erdogan or Putin? Putin's fairly ruthless, but has been quite clear in signalling his intentions. They are pretty tough for his European neighbors, but that's not the same as saying they are anti-US.

Erdogan is an avowed Islamist. 'Nuff said.

Blogger Student in Blue November 24, 2015 11:01 AM  

@ymarsakar

I remember quite clearly the stated goal was to establish a bastion of democracy in the Middle East.

Blogger JaimeInTexas November 24, 2015 11:03 AM  

@63. Stephen Davenport

Putin stated that Turkey's shooting down of the Russian aircraft was a "stab in the back." Was there an informal agreement relating to actions against ISIS/L?

According to what I have seen elsewhere, the fly-over of Turkey (if there was one) lasted between 5 and 10 seconds. Turkey claims control of the airspace in Syria to 10K.

I expect an Adlai Stevenson like presentation at the UN by Russia, showing the evidence against countries that are funding ISIS/L. Those countries, therefore, are states sponsoring terrorists/terrorism and are subject to retaliatory action ... under UN charter.

Blogger luagha November 24, 2015 11:03 AM  

If you shoot, Codsworth carries more, does hth, and is funnier. Dogmeat pins down opponents so you can hth them easily, and he can get stuff from locked areas on the early game.

Blogger Were-Puppy November 24, 2015 11:03 AM  

@66 Rhys O'Reilly
America and Russia ought to be allied against islam.

For those of you in America, do you believe that Americans will ever support a war against Russia on behalf of islam?
----

Americans would not, but our idiotic president and his cabal of goons might try it anyway.

Blogger Markku November 24, 2015 11:04 AM  

We found in that... earlier unfortunate time with Soviets that many of these violations were simply because the Russian pilots were absolutely shitfaced and had no idea where they were flying. Wouldn't be surprised if that wasn't still the case.

Blogger Lukas Brunnor November 24, 2015 11:06 AM  

Drudge headline announcing "Pentagon backing Turkey"...as an extension of the O admin I'm not surprised...proving Vox correct once again that SJWs always double down.

Blogger The Rev November 24, 2015 11:07 AM  

This is why we need President Trump. He's the only candidate that seems to understand that Russia is our best ally against ISIS. Listening to Fiona's hate boner for Putin turns my stomach. Letting Russia do our fighting for us while hand-waving our condemnation for their tactics is the absolute best play available.

Also @33, do you have any good links to Byzantine end times prophecy? I'd love to peruse.

Blogger Markku November 24, 2015 11:08 AM  

In one case, BOTH pilots in an IL-2 Sturmovik had passed out from drinking too much in the cockpit.

Blogger Were-Puppy November 24, 2015 11:10 AM  

@88 Shimshon
@82 Vox, we now know the next city after Raqqa that Russia is going to level.
---

We do?

Blogger Were-Puppy November 24, 2015 11:13 AM  

@94 Ratdog
Clarification:

A Turkoman (Turkmen) is not a Turk. Turkmenistani is not Turkish. Turkmenistan is not Turkey.
---

Thank you. Is this a sort of ethnicity shared between the two countries?

Blogger The Other Robot November 24, 2015 11:14 AM  

I would not be surprised to hear that Putin knew this was coming ...

Anonymous Sensei November 24, 2015 11:17 AM  

For those of you in America, do you believe that Americans will ever support a war against Russia on behalf of islam?

Which Americans? There's no "America," just a bunch of incompatible worldviews with boxes drawn around them, with even more incompatible worldviews being stuffed into them all the time.

Blogger Were-Puppy November 24, 2015 11:21 AM  

@120 DT
@117 How do we get Nate as VP on Trump's ticket?
---

ROFL - IIRC, Nate does not get the warm fuzzies with Trump.

Blogger JaimeInTexas November 24, 2015 11:23 AM  

It seems that Russia has called for an emergency security council meeting of the UN.
Some in the Russian Dumas have begun to call for breaking diplomatic ties with Turkey and that Russian citizens be evacuated from Turkey.

Blogger Markku November 24, 2015 11:23 AM  

Go, Russia, and be Russia. Wipe them out.

Blogger The Other Robot November 24, 2015 11:24 AM  

Erdogan clearly sees his chance for a new Ottoman Empire.

1. Get US and Russia in a war
2. Magic Happens
3. New Ottoman Empire with Erdogan as emperor.

Blogger Krul November 24, 2015 11:26 AM  

@ Markku,

I've read a few references to the Soviets' Finnish ordeal here, but I never fully appreciated it until by chance I came across this.

Blogger CDM November 24, 2015 11:27 AM  

They downed a Russian rescue helicopter. 3rd shot?
http://news.sky.com/story/1593241/putin-downing-of-jet-a-stab-in-the-back

OpenID ymarsakar November 24, 2015 11:29 AM  

"I remember quite clearly the stated goal was to establish a bastion of democracy in the Middle East."
@127
Bush II's stated goal, but not every American had the same idea. I certainly did not see it in those terms. "Democracy" was the spiel given to the voters, because democracy was what they were used to. I think democracy is a poison that will either kill the host or make them stronger if they build up a tolerance to it.

I doubt all those authors Vox Day puts up on a list, S Lind and Tom Kratman, would see democracy as meaning a viable military strategy. It's a political strategy of people living in a democracy that is turning into an oligarchy, and already has.

Democracy is just a justification for totalitarian tyranny in the end. It's useful for managing the public though. The slaves that think they are free will eat it up.

On the topic of Russia again, they've probably figured out by now that the US Regime is using a Soviet trick against them. Or rather, the same trick used in Afghanistan by the US against the Soviets, similar to the Soviet proxy war in Vietnam. The Soviets and the US didn't want to attack each other at the time, so they funded and armed their own population (communists vs democratic forces) in North and South Vietnam. The Soviets lost in Afghanistan when the US armed the Northern Coalition and other tribal leaders with anti air missiles.

The Soviet KGB infiltration of America succeeded beyond their wildest imaginations. Even though Soviet Russia and KGB has fallen, their weapon, the Left, which they created and controlled in the US, now controls the US. So now Russia is fighting a more and more direct war in the ME, against local forces funded and trained by the US and other countries.

It's like a role reversal. The US is now the Evil Empire and the Empire of Democrat slavery, while Russia is fighting for the Orthodox Christians against Muslims. Russians probably felt it was natural for the US to get one up on the Soviets by launching the Afghan resistance program. Now they're in the role of world peace enforcer up against an Evil Empire, the same position Americans have been in in the last century.

New century, new game.

Blogger Markku November 24, 2015 11:29 AM  

Finnish defenders sometimes, though very rarely, took fallen frozen Russian soldiers and posed them upright as psychological warfare. Although rare, a few cases have been documented.

Uhh... Umm... Yes, very rare. Very rare indeed.

Blogger Were-Puppy November 24, 2015 11:31 AM  

@122 ymarsakar

They will do another Waco however, Waco 3 this time perhaps, with a goal of killing more patriots.
---

The saying is, NO MORE FREE WACO'S.

Anonymous DT November 24, 2015 11:32 AM  

#139 ROFL - IIRC, Nate does not get the warm fuzzies with Trump.

But his three points plus "build wall" gives me warm fuzzies.

Blogger Markku November 24, 2015 11:33 AM  

Way I've heard it is that they often posed the corpses as engaging in homosexual relations, not upright.

Anonymous The Kurgan November 24, 2015 11:34 AM  

Stephen Davenport,
Your intense ignorance, stupidy and 'murica verbal diarreha clearly shows you really haven't got even a hint of a clue. Are you really new here and slow, or truly mentally retarded and willfully ignorant?

Blogger Markku November 24, 2015 11:36 AM  

And not to intimidate, but to enrage. We had our motti tactics well practiced, and they worked best against an angry enemy.

Blogger Student in Blue November 24, 2015 11:38 AM  

@ymarsakar
Bush II's stated goal, but not every American had the same idea.

Obviously not every citizen agrees with their leader. That's a given, thus irrelevant as an objection.

So, yeah, I'm going to go by the leader's stated goal, which was doomed to fail from the beginning since Arabs gonna Arab.

Blogger Alexander November 24, 2015 11:38 AM  

I understand the plane was shot, and the pilot are dead...

But is the plane fine?

Blogger Markku November 24, 2015 11:39 AM  

I hear the plane was dented.

Anonymous Nxx November 24, 2015 11:41 AM  

Hey Turkey..

Blogger Krul November 24, 2015 11:41 AM  

@151,

That is cold, in every sense of the word. You Finns must be part snake.

Blogger Alexander November 24, 2015 11:42 AM  

So the plane is not fine?

I understand.

Then war it shall be.

I'd rather fight a war over a dented plane than the fact a Russian gay can't sodomize school kids anyway.

Blogger Markku November 24, 2015 11:45 AM  

I'm just worried that the next There Will Be War will have an obsolete name right on the publishing day. That would be bad.

Blogger Bard November 24, 2015 11:49 AM  

Emergency meeting at the Fed and now NATO in the same week. What are the odds? Conspiracy theorists want to know.

Anonymous DT November 24, 2015 11:51 AM  

@153 The plane is not fine. But Obama's foreign policy is fine.

Blogger Harsh November 24, 2015 11:54 AM  

A Turkoman (Turkmen) is not a Turk. Turkmenistani is not Turkish. Turkmenistan is not Turkey.

It's easier if you refer to the lot of them as wogs and be done with it.

Blogger Were-Puppy November 24, 2015 11:55 AM  

@158
I'm just worried that the next There Will Be War will have an obsolete name right on the publishing day. That would be bad.
---

You could release a Eubonics translation of it called "They is be war"

Blogger The Other Robot November 24, 2015 12:01 PM  

Would the Russians have thought to take some FAEs to Syria?

That would make for a good demonstration.

Blogger Jourdan November 24, 2015 12:02 PM  

I'm just worried that the next There Will Be War will have an obsolete name right on the publishing day. That would be bad.

Don't worry about that, Markku, because war, war never changes.

Blogger Dalrock November 24, 2015 12:17 PM  

This is ugly business. Based on the map the Daily Mail is showing, which they claim uses the data from Turkey, the assertion that the Russian jet was warned for five minutes to get out of Turkish airspace seems suspect. The narrow strip of Turkey the Turks claim the Russian jet crossed is maybe 2 miles wide. At 60 mph that would take two minutes, and of course the Russian jet can't fly nearly that slow. Check out the map here to see what I mean: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3331558/Turkey-shoots-fighter-jet-Syrian-border-Local-media-footage-flaming-plane-crashing-trees.html

Blogger Nate November 24, 2015 12:26 PM  

"ROFL - IIRC, Nate does not get the warm fuzzies with Trump."

If drafted, I would serve.

I would also advise Trump to line the whole top of his wall with solar panels... and claim it was the largest green project ever.

Anonymous Martha November 24, 2015 12:29 PM  

Where'd you get the idea muslim immigrants have no foothold "where the mafias rule"? My siciluan friend tells me that his village, Siculiana, now has 4000 muslim squatters, I.e. twice the native population, and the folks are told there's nothing that can be done about it.

Anonymous 11B November 24, 2015 12:30 PM  

For those of you in America, do you believe that Americans will ever support a war against Russia on behalf of islam?

Americans did not object much to the US fighting Serbia on behalf of islam. So I wouldn't be surprised if they did the same with Russia.

Anonymous RJ November 24, 2015 12:32 PM  

@26: Isaiah 17 is more appropriate:

"A prophecy against Damascus:

“See, Damascus will no longer be a city
but will become a heap of ruins."

The asshats in the Obama Administration are going to get us all killed. Al Yankovic nailed it 30 years ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t039p6xqutU

Anonymous DT November 24, 2015 12:36 PM  

@166 If drafted, I would serve.

Trump/Nate 2016

I would also advise Trump to line the whole top of his wall with solar panels... and claim it was the largest green project ever.

Not windmills? Kind of hard to climb over a wall with spinning blades.

Blogger MendoScot November 24, 2015 12:37 PM  

Remember Grozny. Unlike the Coalition, the Ivans learned the lesson of Islamic pacification from their debacle in Afghanistan.

Anonymous DT November 24, 2015 12:42 PM  

@169 Well I'm sure Obama thinks Christmas is rayciss, sexciss, Islamophoic, homophobic, and a form of war on womym perpetrated by the whitey patriarchy.

I'm surprised he hasn't already started a nuclear war during the holidays.

Blogger Nate November 24, 2015 12:43 PM  

"For those of you in America, do you believe that Americans will ever support a war against Russia on behalf of islam?"

No.

No I do not.

Blogger Nate November 24, 2015 12:43 PM  

"Not windmills? Kind of hard to climb over a wall with spinning blades."

The trouble with windmills is... they actually don't function more than about 20% of the time. The things break more than they work.

OpenID genericviews November 24, 2015 12:45 PM  

Go with Dogmeat. The early game boost to perception will help you spot enemies at a distance and avoid them while you are too weak to survive.

Anonymous DT November 24, 2015 12:48 PM  

@174 The trouble with windmills is... they actually don't function more than about 20% of the time. The things break more than they work.

You don't have to tell anyone the generators double as electric motors when the wind isn't blowing.

Blogger horsewithnonick November 24, 2015 12:50 PM  

Freaking spazz-in-chief of the U.S.still determined to replace Assad with a "democratically elected" (which is to say Islamist) government. I just can't even. Literally.

Anonymous BigGaySteve November 24, 2015 12:54 PM  

media spin in the US been about how Putin = Hitler for the past year or so? I'm pretty sure the establishment is spoiling for a fight.

Lamestream has only picked up the story at noon. Both the Boston marathon moslems and the Oregon college shooter were on Putin's naughty moooslem list. Putin produced a list of G20 nations that contributed to IS IS that lame stream ignored.

Putin please just take out Obama and Biden, there will be no hard feelings. If you must, please use a neutron or fuel air bomb on NYC,DC, Baltimore, St Louis, Atlanta & Chicago so we can keep the nice buildings.

Blogger horsewithnonick November 24, 2015 12:55 PM  

President Obama: "Russia's strikes against the moderate opposition only bolster the Assad regime".

Well, duh.

Blogger Positive Dennis November 24, 2015 1:02 PM  

Neither

Blogger Nate November 24, 2015 1:06 PM  

"You don't have to tell anyone the generators double as electric motors when the wind isn't blowing"

You know they actually got busted for that in pensacola. They had video of still wind and the things just spinning like a top. supposedly they were powering street lights....

Blogger Were-Puppy November 24, 2015 1:07 PM  

@178 BigGaySteve

Putin please just take out Obama and Biden, there will be no hard feelings. If you must, please use a neutron or fuel air bomb on NYC,DC, Baltimore, St Louis, Atlanta & Chicago so we can keep the nice buildings.
---

Yipes, I hope they don't invade Were-Puppy air space until I can escape the Atlanta area.

Blogger Alexander November 24, 2015 1:15 PM  

Solar panels get very, very hot. I would not like to climb over them.

Blogger David of One November 24, 2015 1:15 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger David of One November 24, 2015 1:19 PM  

@173 Nate November 24, 2015 12:43 PM
"For those of you in America, do you believe that Americans will ever support a war against Russia on behalf of islam?"

No.

No I do not.


I think you are correct Nate ... Americans will never support a war against Russian on behalf of islam.

What will be interesting/telling is what OCrapya will do ...

Support NATO by what appears to be a contrived conflict by Turkey's President with Russia or support Russia against ISIS?

Based on what has been reported ... Turkey shoots Russian plane down, Turkish Commander admits killing Russian pilots still under silk, Turkey shoots down Russian rescue helicopter searching for downed plane and potential rescue of pilots ... I agree with the assessment that Turkey is a muslim/islamic/terrorist accomplice.

Blogger Alexandros November 24, 2015 1:25 PM  

There is talk that nothing will come of this; there is talk that whether the pilots are dead or alive, they will be "secured" by the Turkish government and "returned unharmed" to Russia as a way to de-escalate all of this.

This will make Russia look very weak; this is not good for the world.

Blogger Azimus November 24, 2015 1:25 PM  

41. Stephen Davenport November 24, 2015 7:50 AM
Good for the Turks, it sounds like some of the commenters in here are saying the Turks have no right to defend their airspace. Is that what you are saying? We do not want to piss of the Russians? The Russians have been doing this for several months now by Turkey and today Turkey called them on it. Good for Turkey, there will be no World War 3 here, the Russians will run their mouths for a bit but do nothing because their military is not really that good and they know it.


Classic jingoism.

Blogger Azimus November 24, 2015 1:29 PM  

47. Skylark Thibedeau November 24, 2015 8:15 AM
Time to start calling Istanbul Constantinople again. There is no Anglo American Balance of Power force to stop Russia from finally acheving her dream of Warm Water access to the Mediterranean Sea.


Ever hear of Tartus? Check it out!

Blogger Matamoros November 24, 2015 1:35 PM  

"Turkey shot down a Russian warplane near the Syrian border on Tuesday, saying the jet had repeatedly violated its air space, in one of the most serious publicly acknowledged clashes between a NATO member country and Russia for half a century.....

"The Turkish military said the aircraft had been warned 10 times in the space of five minutes about violating Turkish air space. Officials said a second plane had also approached the border and been warned."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/24/us-mideast-crisis-syria-turkey-idUSKBN0TD0IR20151124#xVwoHLlBdW2vEzXx.97

Note: Turkmen is not Turkish - Separate footage from Turkey's Anadolu Agency showed two pilots parachuting out of the jet before it crashed. A deputy commander of rebel Turkmen forces in Syria said his men shot both pilots dead as they came down.

Anonymous DeepThought November 24, 2015 1:36 PM  

Any of you saying it made no sense for Russians to do this look at the radar data and voice logs given by the Turks?

It is clear Russia is attacking government opposition forces and not just ISIS. Atleast the Turks have some backbone against the Russians.

Blogger The Other Robot November 24, 2015 1:39 PM  

I wonder if this was done to eliminate the aura of invincibility that Russia had acquired.

Any of you saying it made no sense for Russians to do this look at the radar data and voice logs given by the Turks?

But you didn't bother to provide any links.

It is clear Russia is attacking government opposition forces and not just ISIS.

Can you point to where in the invitation they have from the Syrian Gov't it says to only attack ISIS?

Blogger Azimus November 24, 2015 1:41 PM  

77. Blogger Stephen Davenport November 24, 2015 9:42 AM
For the Scuzzman, last I saw the US are are part of NATO, Russia is not. We also did not want the Russians involved there for exactly this reason. Crack open a book, son.


I think the last time Western Powers intervened on Turkey's behalf against Russia we got the great adventure known as the Crimean War. "Half a league, half a league, half a league onward!"

Crack open a book indeed. NATO is like an old minefield from a bygone war: it serves no purpose now, and as long as it remains you might just step in it and blow yourself up.

Turk membership in NATO has been a complete joke from 1952 until, according to you, today. You think Ankara gives half a damn about what happens to ANY member state of NATO? I mean they used their NATO troops to invade Cyprus, and island of Greeks (their NATO "ally") garrisoned by British troops (their NATO "ally").

Anonymous DeepThought November 24, 2015 1:41 PM  

Are you guys out of your minds? Russia will do nothing to the Turks. The Turks have nuclear weapons and would use it as a last resort or should Russia strike first, in retaliation.

Blogger JaimeInTexas November 24, 2015 1:42 PM  

@189. Matamoros

The released radar flight path that Turkey alleges to show the transgression does not show Turkey's aircraft at from where the shot(s) was fired.

Let me spell it out for you. Turkey has claimed control of Syrian airspace of 10K from Turkey's border. They can warn all they want but, were the warnings made while Russian aircraft was within Syria's borders? If indeed the Russian aircraft flew over that tract of Turkey's airspace, did the Russians do it as part of an agreement, as seems it seems given Putin's language?

Blogger horsewithnonick November 24, 2015 1:45 PM  

President Obama: "Russia's strikes against the moderate opposition only bolster the Assad regime".

Well, duh.

Blogger Were-Puppy November 24, 2015 1:49 PM  

"Note: Turkmen is not Turkish "

This is possibly a way out of this for Turkey, but why would Turkmen, who are not Turkish, be targeting Russians when they are in Turkish airspace?

Blogger Steve, the Dark Ninja of Mockery November 24, 2015 1:51 PM  

The Turks have nuclear weapons

I'm not sure a wickedly spicy doner kebab counts as a nuclear weapon.

Blogger The Other Robot November 24, 2015 1:52 PM  

Ankara alleges that Turkish F-16 fighters on combat air patrol shot down one of the Russian planes after it violated Turkish airspace for "17 seconds," says the letter.

Well, the Turks have set the standard for 'violations of their airspace'.

I guess that two can play that game.

Blogger Were-Puppy November 24, 2015 1:53 PM  

I like the idea that Russia might be violating muslim safe spaces.

Anonymous DeepThought November 24, 2015 1:56 PM  

@165 Dalrock

The warnings would have started before entering airspace. Plus any objective analysis clarly show the Russians looping several times through Turkish airspace. Russian arrogance has caused much suffering throughout their history. This is just one more instance of this arrogance.

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