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Tuesday, December 29, 2015

Anti-vaxxers are MORE educated

The news that anti-vaxxers are whiter, wealthier, and better-educated than those who place blind faith in vaccines won't surprise anyone who has actually engaged a vaccine enthusiast on the subject. None of them know anything about history, few of them know anything about science, and all of them are prone to simply repeating the usual vaccine scare rhetoric:
The people most likely to refuse to have their children vaccinated tend to be white, well-educated and affluent, researchers report.

A study published in the January issue of the American Journal of Public Health used California state government data on “personal belief exemptions,” or opting out of vaccinations for nonmedical reasons. From 2007 to 2013, the rate of vaccine refusal for personal belief doubled, to 3.06 percent.

The researchers reviewed data among all kindergarten children in the state during that time. More than 17,000 children, attending 6,911 schools, were exempted.

Exemption percentages were generally higher in regions with higher income, higher levels of education, and predominantly white populations. In private schools, 5.43 percent of children were exempt, compared with 2.88 percent in public schools.

In some suburban areas, rates of exemption were near 50 percent, and more than a quarter of California’s schools have measles immunization rates below the 92 to 94 percent required for herd immunity, the level of vaccination necessary to protect people who are not immune.
The very simple fact of the matter is that vaccines are far, far less important in halting the spread of infectious disease than controlling entry and immigration from non-first world countries. This is obvious, since vaccine rates are still very high in the USA and Western Europe, and yet there is a massive rise in various diseases that is the direct result of global travel and large-scale immigration.

The idea that the current vaccine schedule is responsible for the huge decline in deaths from infectious diseases in the 19th century is not merely ahistorical, it requires a combination of ignorance and stupidity. This will become readily apparent before long as most children will continue to be vaccinated but disease rates will continue to rise thanks to the behavior and lifestyles of the New Americans.

You can be reliably certain that a position is wrong if it is inordinately held by magical thinkers or cargo cult scientists. Vaccines aren't magic, they are merely a medical tool that is useful in some circumstances and useless in others. The simple and science-based fact is that most children don't need most vaccines.

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166 Comments:

Blogger White Knight Leo #0368 December 29, 2015 8:35 AM  

I've had at least two people tell me, point-blank, that any supportive expression for "parental choice in vaccination" is per se an "anti-vaccine" statement.

That when Trump, Cruz, Rubio and Christie all express support for allowing parental choice and religious exemptions, they are being "anti-vaccine" and "anti-science". And that Ben Carson was "anti-vaccine and a liar" for saying that we might want to consider slowing down the vaccine schedule for infants.

To which I responded "How do you get to 'anti-vaccine' without at some point saying 'vaccines are bad'?"

The only response he had was "Trump implied that vaccines cause autism". When I pointed out that "lots of people on both sides of the political spectrum believe this, even though it probably isn't true, so its not insane for him to say so", he reiterated that it proved that Republicans were "anti-science".

And he tried to contest my statement that most anti-vaxxers were part of the "organic" crowd rather than faith-healers.

Anonymous HoosierHillbilly December 29, 2015 8:38 AM  

Anybody a member for the study? It would be interesting to see a breakdown of the two sides of the coin on this. On one hand you have those that are scientifically opposed to vaccines, then on the other you have the crunchy granola types also opposed to vaccines. Same side of the fight on this one, but both tend to skew whiter, wealthier, and "better educated".

Blogger CM December 29, 2015 9:03 AM  

And that Ben Carson was "anti-vaccine and a liar" for saying that we might want to consider slowing down the vaccine schedule for infants.

The response to that by total-vaxxers was startling to me... but I keep getting my wires crossed on who is pro/anti gmo, organic, whole...

I still can't figure out what is scientific about the "good" of hopping a young infant up on dead virus cells the way they do it. I mean these are the tiny little people who have a difficult time eliminating their own dead cells (bilirubin, jaundice). I'm more inclined to believe the science community is just ignoring it and not asking the questions.

Blogger Banjo December 29, 2015 9:04 AM  

I haven't looked into the data behind this "award winning" data visualization: http://www.informationisbeautifulawards.com/showcase/660-vaccines-and-infectious-diseases
But I sure do wonder what else might have happened around 1960 that is being ignored...

Blogger Tucker Goodrich December 29, 2015 9:05 AM  

"The idea that the current vaccine schedule is responsible for the huge decline in deaths from infectious diseases in the 19th century is not merely ahistorical, it requires a combination of ignorance and stupidity."

So are you arguing that polio, for instance, disappeared because we eliminated immigration in the 1950s and '60s? Smallpox was also eliminated in the 20th century, not the 19th...

The big decline in infectious disease did not occur in the 19th century. Talk about ahistorical...

Blogger VD December 29, 2015 9:15 AM  

So are you arguing that polio, for instance, disappeared because we eliminated immigration in the 1950s and '60s? Smallpox was also eliminated in the 20th century, not the 19th...

It's amusing how I always know as soon as I see the word "so" that someone is going to say something stupid. In answer to your question, no.

The big decline in infectious disease did not occur in the 19th century. Talk about ahistorical...

The decline did not start in the 20th century. Depending on the disease, the peak ranged from 1838 to 1880.

Anonymous NorthernHamlet December 29, 2015 9:17 AM  

Can anyone recommend a vaccine schedule they're must comfortable with in the states?

Anonymous joe doakes December 29, 2015 9:34 AM  

The mainstream is only now picking up what researchers told us, before we suffered half-a-decade of sneering about ignorant knuckle-draggers: stick a pin in the map at every Whole Foods store location, draw rings around the pins. Those are neighborhoods where people don't vaccinate. Is it okay now to say "I told you so?"

http://news.sciencemag.org/2011/01/why-prius-driving-composting-set-fears-vaccines

Blogger Daniel December 29, 2015 9:35 AM  

Oh, Polio. Never heard that one before. The old magic bullet that proves that all experimental Nazi vaccines on death camp patients were 100% effective!

Anonymous Ryan December 29, 2015 9:36 AM  

There once was a nurse who did say,
This shot will keep disease away,
The young parents were fools,
And now their kid drools,
While he spins and shouts all the day....

Blogger Nate December 29, 2015 9:40 AM  

"Can anyone recommend a vaccine schedule they're must comfortable with in the states? "

We simply do not vaccinate at all. if our kids have not gotten the chicken pox by the teen years we will give that vaccine a very hard look. If it works, its safe, and it wasn't grown in the tissues of murdered infants... then we will use it.

Blogger Alexandros December 29, 2015 9:46 AM  

It's the sexually related vaccines that always struck me as particularly insane.

Blogger bub December 29, 2015 9:47 AM  

Why do they care? If they are correct, the problem will fix itself, as all non-vaxxers will die.

Anonymous SumDood December 29, 2015 9:50 AM  

One of the anti-vax organizations is autismspeaks dot org. Started by former NBC bigshot Bob Wright when his past-her-prime daughter Katie squeezed out an autistic baby and wanted something to blame besides his daughter's choices. Between her dried out uterus and her antidepressant use, her kids were doomed from the start.

I've known Katie since 7th grade, and have seen her morality and intelligence up close. When you read a diatribe by Katie Wright about the evils of vaccines, realize that you are indulging a functional imbecile with a room-temperature IQ who has lived her entire life because her daddy paid her way.

Blogger Nate December 29, 2015 9:53 AM  

"It's the sexually related vaccines that always struck me as particularly insane."

Preach

At one time all someone had to do was say the word "safety" and the average parent would isntantly comply.

Those days are long over.

Anonymous Breeder December 29, 2015 9:54 AM  

Vox Day, it appears that you're unfamiliar with much of the company you keep in this debate. Crunchy granolas are no longer fringe leftist dirty hippies living in a commune somewhere. In the last decade, the movement has very much infected white upper/middle class America. Anti-vaxxing is part of the package. It also comes with belief in chiropractic, use of essential oils, herbal remedies, homeopathic remedies, and an aversion to any actual medicine.

This is relevant because you accuse the pro-vaxxers of "magical thinking" when that term is very applicable to most anti-vaxxers in a much, much broader sense. Bubonic plague could get a decent foothold again if it just hit the right bunch of mommy-blog followers, because they'd be "treating" it with spinal adjustments and oregano rub-downs.

Blogger Nate December 29, 2015 9:55 AM  

"One of the anti-vax organizations is autismspeaks dot org. Started by former NBC bigshot Bob Wright when his past-her-prime daughter Katie squeezed out an autistic baby and wanted something to blame besides his daughter's choices. Between her dried out uterus and her antidepressant use, her kids were doomed from the start."

So how long were you in the friend-zone bitter gamma?

Blogger Christopher Yost December 29, 2015 10:01 AM  

What proof/graphs would you be using in your belief in the inefficacy of vaccines?

Most of the anti-vaccine work is based upon graphs and other work by Raymond Obomswain. He's been consistantlt proven to be, at best, less than honest regarding the subject.

Also, stating that children that are surrounded by vaccinated children didn't themselves get sick is incredibly dishonest.

Anonymous 185 December 29, 2015 10:07 AM  

Whiter and wealthier makes sense but "better educated" sounds like elitist liberal.

Blogger Nate December 29, 2015 10:08 AM  

" In the last decade, the movement has very much infected white upper/middle class America. Anti-vaxxing is part of the package. It also comes with belief in chiropractic, use of essential oils, herbal remedies, homeopathic remedies, and an aversion to any actual medicine."

Hey sugartits... are ya new here?

Because Vox has been blogging on this, and we've been discussing it, for about 13 years now.

So we're the granola hippy mommy blog reading anti-vaxxers?

Yet you're swinging from hillary clinton's vulva and you don't even realize it.

I wonder if you're old enough to remember HillaryCare. You know the whole backbone of her plan was based on massive vaccine use to reduce medical costs accross the board.

All the bullshit vaccination propoganda you read was created to sell HillaryCare all those years ago. they cranked he vaccine schedule up to 11 then to 13.

So yeah... I'll own the mommybloggers.

You own Hillary.

Blogger Were-Puppy December 29, 2015 10:11 AM  

@1 White Knight Leo #0368

To which I responded "How do you get to 'anti-vaccine' without at some point saying 'vaccines are bad'?"
---

You get there by allowing fools to put words in your mouth. Don't let them. Call them out on that crap.

Anonymous Breeder December 29, 2015 10:16 AM  

@15 Nate (or any other anti-vaxxer) if you had a newborn and there was a whooping cough outbreak in your area, what would stop you from vaccinating your older children? (Keeping in mind, newborns are the ones who die from it.) The DTAP is 80% effective at protecting an individual from pertussis. Would you find the greater danger to your family to be
1: Your non-infant children spontaneously becoming autistic from a shot or
2: Your non-infant children getting pertussis and pass it along to your baby.

Of course, you can also bet that no one gets exposed, but that's increasingly less likely. Why deny yourself that extra margin of protection from a disease that's potentially fatal to a member of your family?

Blogger Alexandros December 29, 2015 10:16 AM  

@18 Most of the anti-vaccine work is based upon graphs and other work by Raymond Obomswain. He's been consistantlt proven to be, at best, less than honest regarding the subject.

Christopher, take a look at the vaccine related papers freely available on the ncbi repository: at least a third of them use faked or non-reproducible data and a third is probably low-balling the problem.

Anecdotal, but the university labs I have worked at were riven with non-compliance, fraudulent data, and an unacceptable lack of abiotic procedure. Most of the grunt work is being done by undergrad and grad students who couldn't care less and just want to produce results in line with the lead researcher's bias. I do not know how vaccine studies are run, but I can only imagine its even worse in a corporate sponsored or government-funded environment. A certain kind of outcome is desired in all of these situations: one that will make the researchers look good or produce the result the sponsor wants.

Blogger Were-Puppy December 29, 2015 10:18 AM  

@1 White Knight Leo #0368


And he tried to contest my statement that most anti-vaxxers were part of the "organic" crowd rather than faith-healers.
---

You're a brave man Leo to argue with people that use this kind of logic :P

He's just using the vaccine issue to get another dig at a couple groups he doesn't like.

Blogger Bastiat's Ghost December 29, 2015 10:18 AM  

The anti-vaxxers possess knowledge but lack understanding.

Anonymous KoranBurningFaggot. December 29, 2015 10:19 AM  

The anthrax vaccine given to US soldiers has killed more people than have gotten anthrax since it was invented. Vaccines are a numbers game of risk vs. benefit. The only people who can get the vaccine that gives immunity to rabies are veterinarians and spelunkers(people can be bit by bats and not notice). Instead of giving kids the whooping cough vaccine we could have simply controlled our borders and no US taxpayer dollars would be wasted on it in the US.

All of the eradicated diseases coming back with drug resistance are because we had people going to the 3rd world handing out free drugs to 3rdworlders who thought they were smarter than white doctors by not taking the free drugs as instructed, and sold remaining free pills. If you read the book The Crisis Caravan, written by a former aid worker you will understand that more aid ends up in Warlord and prostitues hands than in the target community. Many "charity" aid workers are mearly STR8 versions of Clarke.

It's the sexually related vaccines that always struck me as particularly insane.

By the numbers Gardisil for girls could have dozens of girls drop dead within a day of getting the shot and it would still be an acceptable risk/benefit (I can say this because it has occurred), but there is no such acceptable risk for boys.

"How do you get to 'anti-vaccine' without at some point saying 'vaccines are bad'?"

Patriot Nurse was threatened to be fired if she didn't take down her video about how to weigh the risk/benefit of vaccines. I asked my doctor for the Hept C vaccine but she wouldn't give it to me, I told her the risk factor of possibly having the 3rd world come to me as patients was why I wanted it.

Blogger S1AL December 29, 2015 10:23 AM  

These people are also more likely to hate cracking, believe in chem trails, and vote Democrat.

But that's none of my business.

Blogger S1AL December 29, 2015 10:23 AM  

*fracking

Anonymous Breeder December 29, 2015 10:23 AM  

@20 Nate: No, I'm new (long time lurker) but that's beside the point. I'm not accusing VD or any anti-vaxxing ilk of being crunchy granolas. I'm pointing out that the magical-thinking mommyblog followers are right in the sweet spot of the demographic in the article...and that they're capable of far more magical thought than your average joe who believes that vaccinations work.

Blogger Nate December 29, 2015 10:23 AM  

"Of course, you can also bet that no one gets exposed, but that's increasingly less likely. Why deny yourself that extra margin of protection from a disease that's potentially fatal to a member of your family?"

See its always this same crap. You take one vaccine out of a massive schedule... then start making hypothesis about it.

Here's a hint sugartits.. vaccines are drugs. Drugs interact. You can't just seperate out one.. because you aren't just taking one.

You're hyper stimulating an immune system that is not even developed enough to function yet.

its a fantastically stupid idea on its face. Its the kind of thing that people will look back on 100 years from now and wonder how anyone could've thought otherwise.

Again... to directly answer your question... none of my children are vaccinated.

Ask me how much I worry about it.

Blogger Nate December 29, 2015 10:25 AM  

"and that they're capable of far more magical thought than your average joe who believes that vaccinations work."

Wrong.

The average anti-vaxxer believes vaccines don't work because they read stuff that says they don't work.

The average joe you're talking about never puts any thought into it what-so-ever.

His thinking doesn't even rise to the level of magic.

Its blind faith.

Anonymous Roundtine December 29, 2015 10:25 AM  

What proof/graphs would you be using in your belief in the inefficacy of vaccines?

The issue isn't efficacy, it's that in some cases the harm outweighs the benefits. I never get a flu shot, for example, because some years they give the wrong shot and it doesn't prevent you from getting sick. But taking the shot can make you ill.

Blogger Tucker Goodrich December 29, 2015 10:26 AM  

"The decline did not start in the 20th century. Depending on the disease, the peak ranged from 1838 to 1880."

This is simply not true. Take polio, one of the worst:

"Poliomyelitis has appeared in epidemic form, become endemic on a global scale, and been reduced to near-elimination, all within the span of documented medical history. Epidemics of the disease appeared in the late 19th century in many European countries and North America, following which polio became a global disease with annual epidemics. During the period of its epidemicity, 1900–1950, the age distribution of poliomyelitis cases increased gradually. Beginning in 1955, the creation of poliovirus vaccines led to a stepwise reduction in poliomyelitis, culminating in the unpredicted elimination of wild polioviruses in the United States by 1972."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2991634/

Polio didn't even become widespread until 1900, so your argument that it declined before it began obviously doesn't hold water.

Measles is similar:

"...Langmuir showed that >90% of Americans were infected with the measles virus by age 15 years [1]. This equated to roughly 1 birth cohort (4 million people) infected with measles each year. Not all cases were reported to the public health system; from 1956 to 1960, an average of 542,000 cases were reported annually.By the late 1950s, even before the introduction of measles vaccine, measles-related deaths and case fatality rates in the United States had decreased markedly, presumably as a result of improvement in health care and nutrition."

http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/189/Supplement_1/S1.full

Wikipedia sums it up nicely: "During the 19th century, three previously encountered diseases and one emerging infectious disease, cholera, reached epidemic proportions..."

None of them started serious declines until the advent of vaccines.

You're entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts.

Anonymous TS December 29, 2015 10:26 AM  

"I do not know how vaccine studies are run, but I can only imagine its even worse in a corporate sponsored or government-funded environment."

It is.

OpenID sigbouncer December 29, 2015 10:27 AM  

GcMAF is produced in the body of all healthy individuals. It's vital for the immune system. People with cancer and autism have extremely low levels of GcMAF in their bodies. In many vaccines there is a compound called Nagalase which destroys the GcMAF in your body.

http://healthimpactnews.com/2015/is-the-u-s-medical-mafia-murdering-alternative-health-doctors-who-have-real-cures-not-approved-by-the-fda/

Blogger Nate December 29, 2015 10:30 AM  

and don't give us this magic crap. There are mechanisms by which we can hypothsize that vaccines can cause autism... both through the preservatives in them, and in the way they effect the neurological immune system.

That's not magic. That's step one of the science. The problem is your total faith in vaccines, and the government agency which has hitched its whole cart to them.

The CDC is on a crusade to prove vaccines are safe and effective... the truth be damned. Because the CDC knows damn well if it says anything otherwise... its one of the biggest medical scandals in history.


Blogger Nate December 29, 2015 10:33 AM  

"The issue isn't efficacy, it's that in some cases the harm outweighs the benefits."

it is always a risk reward equation. but again... some of the vaccines like the yearly flu vaccine don't work. Hell this year even the pharmacists will tell you it isn't working.

Anonymous wEz December 29, 2015 10:34 AM  

My wife ans I don't vaccinate our children. Thank God for herd immunity! For all those who disagree with our decision, please pray for us who are exposing our children to unspeakable ills.

Anonymous Roundtine December 29, 2015 10:35 AM  

I'm pointing out that the magical-thinking mommyblog followers are right in the sweet spot of the demographic in the article...and that they're capable of far more magical thought than your average joe who believes that vaccinations work.

Mommy bloggers are still home taking care of their kids, in fact they have to because all this stuff takes time. I would bet their children have less illnesses than those sent into daycare.

Blogger Shimshon December 29, 2015 10:37 AM  

@11 Nate, as someone who got chickenpox at 17 (in 1984), let me tell you, it was not fun. I also gave it to my brother (15 at the time) and an acquaintance I had dinner with before I knew what I had, who was in his early TWENTIES and missed the start of his first year at Stanford Law School (he was not happy, to say the least).

My doctor (who was still the pediatrician I had grown up with) said it was the worst case he had ever seen.

If the vaccine was available then, I probably would've taken it. Nonetheless, there are benefits to the real illness over the vaccine. My reading indicates that the vaccine wears off over time. I happened to have what a doctor diagnosed as shingles last year, and it was the mildest case you have ever seen (nothing like the pics you find in searches), and that is certainly due to having the actual illness earlier. So, decades later, I'm grateful.

Anonymous Roundtine December 29, 2015 10:37 AM  

None of them started serious declines until the advent of vaccines.

I looked at the wiki. It reports the number of cases, not the rate of infection. There were a lot more kids in 1950 than in 1850.

Blogger Tallawampus December 29, 2015 10:37 AM  

Dropping in again as the lurking Evil Pediatrician. Vaccines are like everything else we have in medicine - imperfect. Other modern advances like hygiene, good diet and sanitation have certainly also helped stop the spread of disease. Polio for instance is spread by stool, so eating less stool decreases your chance of getting polio.

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater and say all vaccines are bad and unnecessary. Measure the risks vs benefits and make an informed choice. Hauling my kids around in my car is dangerous statistically, but I accept the risk because the benefit is pretty high so I do it. My kids are all vaccinated on schedule. Will anything bad happen? Possibly. But I've decided, based on evidence, that the risks of vaccinating are less than then risks of not vaccinating.

Do I care if your kids are vaccinated? No. That's not my lookout.

Blogger BassmanCO December 29, 2015 10:39 AM  

As for the Autism link, why is anecdotal evidence completely ignored. My son on the spectrum was likely not due to vaccines (pediatrician noticed issues almost from day 1), but we have numerous friends whose children presented as typical until they had their first set of major immunizations, then saw immediate regression and issues from then on.

Why is that ignored? Because the CDC says something they've never tested for safety is safe?

Anonymous TS December 29, 2015 10:40 AM  

"http://healthimpactnews.com/2015/is-the-u-s-medical-mafia-murdering-alternative-health-doctors-who-have-real-cures-not-approved-by-the-fda/"

Good link.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan December 29, 2015 10:40 AM  

Back in the 70s grade school had my polio shot 45 days later I got polio for 4 days 45 days later 4 more days of polio. But no Forest Gump leg braces

OpenID sigbouncer December 29, 2015 10:43 AM  

@36

"The CDC is on a crusade to prove vaccines are safe and effective... the truth be damned. Because the CDC knows damn well if it says anything otherwise... its one of the biggest medical scandals in history."


Are you kidding me? The biggest scandal in medical history is happening right now! Cancer was cured. And the doctor (Dr Bradstreet) who cured it saw his lab raided and his body turned up a week later floating in a river.

https://www.intellihub.com/investigation-three-days-before-dr-bradstreet-was-found-dead-in-a-river-u-s-govt-agents-raided-his-research-facility-to-seize-a-breakthrough-cancer-treatment-called-gcmaf/

http://freedomoutpost.com/2015/10/12-holistic-doctors-have-now-died-within-a-little-over-90-days/

http://www.infowars.com/another-alternative-health-doctor-killed-found-in-makeshift-grave/

Anonymous wEz December 29, 2015 10:44 AM  

I wonder how many adults who were once vaccinated get routine boosters? I haven't had a "booster" for 20 years or so, shouldn't doom and gloom have hit me by now? Along with many people I know that never go to the doc either?

Blogger White Knight Leo #0368 December 29, 2015 10:45 AM  

@21

His who schtick was trying to paint Republicans in general as being anti-science and anti-medicine. So I started highlighted just the anti-science of Barack Obama himself.

And when he started complaining about me "trying to change the subject", I said "If what you wanted to say was that politicians were prone to making scientifically illiterate statements, then I would agree with you. But that's not what you are doing. You are trying to make a partisan attack on people who hold different political beliefs from you. Scientific illiteracy is found on both sides of the political aisle, although the different groups tend to have different forms of it, and none are much better than the others. Democrats are not any less likely to be anti-science than Republicans."

He stopped talking to me after that.


@24

I speak my mind here, where most people think I'm a dirty moderate, don't I? But thank you.


@26
"How do you get to 'anti-vaccine' without at some point saying 'vaccines are bad'?"

Patriot Nurse was threatened to be fired if she didn't take down her video about how to weigh the risk/benefit of vaccines. I asked my doctor for the Hept C vaccine but she wouldn't give it to me, I told her the risk factor of possibly having the 3rd world come to me as patients was why I wanted it.


I don't pretend to know all that much about vaccines; I know a little about blood serum, but that's just a transfer of existing antibodies, which isn't the same thing. From what I understand, vaccines aren't exactly drugs, and they don't interact with each other the way that drugs do.

But that's besides the point, isn't it? Even if they don't mix together to produce unintended new compounds, they can have synergistic effects on the body under some circumstances. And regardless of the benefits, like any drug it should be up to the individual to take it or not. I've never gotten the flu vaccine; and I haven't had the flu for over a decade, just the occasional cold.



But you know the worst part about the whole conversation? The guy started out by effectively saying that anything in the state's interest (his specific point was "public health", but he made it a general argument), it is thereby empowered to act upon. I pointed out that suppression of criticism was emphatically in the state's interest, and it was nevertheless Constitutionally prohibited from taking any action whatsoever on that score.

I said the correct formulation was "the interest of the citizenry is the justification of state action, and even then it applies if and only if the citizens agree to cede their individual discretion on the subject". He wasn't happy about it, and the whole thing devolved from there.

Blogger Tallawampus December 29, 2015 10:45 AM  

Hey Nate, just out of curiousity, do you use any medicines for your family? They are all studied and approved like vaccines - by the government and by big pharma - do you view them just as suspiciously?

It's a problem for me as a doctor-how do I know this new medicine will actually work? It's not like I can do a huge 10,000 person study myself and anecdotal efficacy isn't always accurate.

Blogger Alexandros December 29, 2015 10:45 AM  

Polio vaccine saved a lot of people, but they never talk about the many, many people who died in testing it.

Anonymous Breeder December 29, 2015 10:46 AM  

@30 Nate: You have the luxury of not worrying about it, because you don't have an infant during a pertussis outbreak. It's not some abstract thought experiment for me. There's been a lot of whooping cough where I live. Thankfully, I don't have any babies to worry about.

I didn't pick one random vaccine out of a massive schedule or make any hypothesis. I picked a relevant example based on a current outbreak.

You'll note I haven't advocated strict adherence to any massive vaccination schedule. I'm pointing out that the blanket anti-vaxx position is just as much kool-aid drinking as is blindly following the schedule.

You're denying the efficacy of ANY vaccine because the schedule is so massive and you don't like the idea of pumping your littlest ones full of drugs.

Would you vaccinate yourself if you had to travel to the Third World?

Blogger Scuzzaman December 29, 2015 10:46 AM  

"Exemption percentages were generally higher in regions with higher income, higher levels of education, and predominantly white populations. In private schools, 5.43 percent of children were exempt, compared with 2.88 percent in public schools."

IOW, while very carefully not said here, people who typically practice sound hygiene don't need vaccinations.

I await the CBS special on the startling lack of epidemics amongst the affluent, educated, and white.

But I won't be holding my breath.

Blogger Elocutioner December 29, 2015 10:47 AM  

I wonder what exotic new diseases will need to be added to the vaccine rotation because of all those poor "Syrian refugees" our elites are forcing on us in undisclosed locations around the country. Because they're all actually from Syria, right? Hey, what was that deadly flesh-eating virus the ISIS goat humpers were passing around? Maybe we'll only get something like the exotic enterovirus that was going around with the illegals last year.

The ebola drama demonstrates in spades why we can't trust the gov't on health. Instead of treating the bimbo in Africa they flew her here then screwed up the quarantine exposing untold numbers to freaking ebola in a major metropolitan area. THAT shows how serious the gov't is about the risk-vs-reward argument. They don't give a fig about our lives, just appearances and compliance and pursuing whatever the agenda of the day is.

Blogger Nate December 29, 2015 10:49 AM  


"Dropping in again as the lurking Evil Pediatrician."

you are again lumping it all together. Like a tetnus shot for a 10 year old is the same thing as a hepititis shot for a new born.

Risk and reward as you said. Risk vs reward favors the tetnus shot. In many cases it does not favor the vaccine.

Its fascinating to me that people understand that anti-biotics have limitations... but have such amazing faith in vaccines.

Blogger Nate December 29, 2015 10:52 AM  

"You'll note I haven't advocated strict adherence to any massive vaccination schedule. I'm pointing out that the blanket anti-vaxx position is just as much kool-aid drinking as is blindly following the schedule.

You're denying the efficacy of ANY vaccine because the schedule is so massive and you don't like the idea of pumping your littlest ones full of drugs."

No. I'm not.

As I've said... Tetnus is an example of a vaccine we use. And we use plenty of drugs. We're not essential oil using dirt hippies. My wife is an anesthesiologist. We are part of the modern medical establishment you could say.

We just take the radical step of insisting that vaccines we use be held to the exact same standards as all other drugs.

Somehow that makes us crazy.

Blogger Scuzzaman December 29, 2015 10:53 AM  

"I said the correct formulation was "the interest of the citizenry is the justification of state action, and even then it applies if and only if the citizens agree to cede their individual discretion on the subject". He wasn't happy about it, and the whole thing devolved from there."

This is an important point, especially as in most western democracies, the reverse is true. The parliament of New Zealand, for example, enacted a law explicitly granting to local councils the presumption of competence, i.e. they presumed that the councils were competent to assess when they are more competent than the individuals within their boundaries, to make decisions bearing on the lives and livelihoods of those individuals.

This is an appalling obscenity, to my mind, but it is how bureaucrats inevitably think. And it is important to understand this point because this is how politics is today; WHENEVER any level of government concludes that it is more competent to run your life than you are, in any particular area, it comes under increasing internal and external pressure to act in such a way as to remove your decision-making power in that area, and replace it with some idiot policy which forces everyone to make the same stupid mistake simultaneously.

It's like they never read Dune at all ...

Blogger Scuzzaman December 29, 2015 10:55 AM  

... hence it is crucial that we collectively assault the presumption of competence wherever we encounter it. We must berate it, deconstruct it, lampoon it, and ridicule it at every opportunity.

Our freedom has always and will always consist only in those areas where the authorities admit their incompetence.

See also: "market failure" theory.

Anonymous wEz December 29, 2015 10:57 AM  

99 percent of people that get vaccines accept them using blind-faith. But if you use some discretion and question getting sh*t getting pumped into you young child, you're evil and anti-science. Follow like a dumbass sheep and you get a gold star!

Anonymous Breeder December 29, 2015 10:58 AM  

Its fascinating to me that people understand that anti-biotics have limitations... but have such amazing faith in vaccines.

Who on here has demonstrated such amazing faith? In my own argument, I pointed out the imperfect 80% effectiveness of DTAP. Tallawampus advocated making informed choices, which could include some vaccines but not others.

Blogger Tallawampus December 29, 2015 10:58 AM  

@54 Nate

I did not lump it all together. You've obviously done a risk benefit if you are willing to get your kids tetanus shots at 10 years old. You don't think all vaccines are bad. I also don't think all vaccines are bad.

I also find it amazing how much faith people put in medicines like antibiotics. Since I prescribe them almost every day I know their limitations and side effects. The same with vaccines. I don't magically think vaccines are wonderful, just like I don't think antibiotics are wonderful. They are both tools that have benefits and risks attached to them.

You can't say "all vaccines are good with no risk" and "all vaccines are bad with 100% risk"; both are equally false statements.

Blogger The Other Robot December 29, 2015 10:59 AM  

OT: Should voters have the right to vote for a soon-to-be convicted criminal?

Blogger CM December 29, 2015 11:01 AM  

You're denying the efficacy of ANY vaccine because the schedule is so massive and you don't like the idea of pumping your littlest ones full of drugs.

It is Risk/Reward. If Nate finds no reward worth the risk for vaccinating his kids, what's that to you?

And you are picking one thing out of a lot. There is no Pertussis vaccine. It is Diptheria, Tetanus, and Pertussis. D & T do not need an 18m renewal. 5-10 years has been fine for it. But now we are being told to vaccinate every 18m for all 3 because the Pertussis vaccine wasn't working.

They are really selling the efficacy there.

Blogger Robert What? December 29, 2015 11:02 AM  

The US vaccine schedules for infants and toddlers has sky rocketed in the last couple of decades. When my son was born a little over twenty years ago we thought it was a lot then. But it was nothing compared to the corporate pin cushions newborns have become today. First and foremost, it is a huge business with tens (hundreds?) of billions of dollars at stake. Secondly, as our beloved Vox has pointed out, mass migration from third world cesspools has brought in newer and better diseases. The "solution" being, of course, not a halt or even a slowdown of the invasion, but even more vaccination. It's a great business model. Wish I'd thought of it.

Blogger The Other Robot December 29, 2015 11:02 AM  

You can't say "all vaccines are good with no risk" and "all vaccines are bad with 100% risk"; both are equally false statements.

I agree with you.

On a philosophical level, what I wonder is: Did Edward Jenner rule out possible alternative explanations for why milk maids did not get smallpox? For example, milk maids had access to milk, so it seems possible to me that they were healthier than many others.

It is also curious that we do not use cow pox as the basis of our vaccines for smallpox, as far as I am aware.

Blogger dc.sunsets December 29, 2015 11:04 AM  

Hilarious.

I'm betting not ONE critic of vaccine skepticism can explain the difference between humoral & cell mediated immunity.

The vaccinate everyone for everything crowd is entirely constituted by the following:

1. Bureaucrats (including not only CDC and FDA flacks, but also grant-paid "researchers," media personalities and the vast majority of physicians.)
2. People entirely ignorant of the relevant science.

Blogger White Knight Leo #0368 December 29, 2015 11:04 AM  

@56

It's like they never read Dune at all ...

I read Dune (and saw 2 different film versions), but I don't remember that kind of issue, "forcing everyone to make the same stupid mistake", in it. Refresh my memory, please?

Blogger Tallawampus December 29, 2015 11:05 AM  

@55 Nate

Oops, arguing past each other at the speed of posts. We're making the same argument, just from different angles. Trust No One. Verify.

Anonymous wEz December 29, 2015 11:05 AM  

Vaccines always have such a great out. Its lovely..
If you get something its because you weren't vaccinated.
If you're vaccinated, it probably was because you didn't recieve boosters.
If you were vaccinated, and within the booster time limit, its because the vaccine is not 100 percent effective....so you're SOL, sorry! Please try again!

Blogger Tallawampus December 29, 2015 11:10 AM  

@64 The Other Robot

They do use a type of cow pox (vaccinia) as the small pox vaccine.

Blogger BassmanCO December 29, 2015 11:11 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Nate December 29, 2015 11:12 AM  

"They are all studied and approved like vaccines - by the government and by big pharma - do you view them just as suspiciously?"

We use things like zofran... if one of the kids gets a migraine (as all of mine do). We'll do various NSAIDs. I mean its tough man. It really is. Basically DrWho goes and finds the studies herself looking at methodology and such.

We are very skeptical of new drugs... but if you're in a bad situation... its a risk reward thing.

Blogger Nate December 29, 2015 11:15 AM  

Tallawampus

Its deeply refreshing to see a rational pediatrician about vaccines.

Anonymous KoranBurningFaggot December 29, 2015 11:28 AM  

The CDC is on a crusade to prove vaccines are safe and effective... the truth be damned. Because the CDC knows damn well if it says anything otherwise... its one of the biggest medical scandals in history

As America becomes more die verse the number of people(Asians & whites) that can understand risk will diminish. Perhaps leftists are getting ready for the day when instead of talking like a FAG they can just say brawno has electrolytes, its what bodies crave.

I wonder how many adults who were once vaccinated get routine boosters? I haven't had a "booster" for 20 years or so, shouldn't doom and gloom have hit me by now?

I have had titers drawn to see if I need boosters and I was good.

It's a problem for me as a doctor-how do I know this new medicine will actually work?

Just prescribe what the drug reps who bribe you with pizza tell you to.

. There's been a lot of whooping cough where I live.

Should have done the white flight thing.

Blogger Tallawampus December 29, 2015 11:30 AM  

Nate,

I'd guess that most rational pediatricians don't belong to the American Academy of Pediatrics either. Pro gun control and anti spanking? Sheesh.

Blogger Sheila4g December 29, 2015 11:30 AM  

I know little to nothing about the actual science behind modern vaccines, and I had my children vaccinated (15-20 years ago). Knowing what I know now, however, I would agree with Tallawampus - risk versus reward, and individual case by case decisions. My older son was born and vaccinated overseas - and far fewer than per today's American schedule. He got a bad case of chicken pox at age 4. My younger one never contracted it, despite my best efforts, and with a great deal of trepidation and private school pressure I got him vaccinated. We never get the flu shots, and since home schooling the only one who ever gets sick is my husband (usually from work).

If I had infants today, I think I would look seriously at the European schedule - to the best of my knowledge their disease rates are no higher than ours (discounting immigration, of course) and their vaccine schedule much lighter and more gradual. I'm also a lot more cautious about any prescription medicine, particularly since reading about the corruption and filth in the Indian production of medications for the US market. I try to check any generic we get to ensure it's not from various Indian manufacturers.

Anonymous Ryan December 29, 2015 11:34 AM  

It's been a while since this vax/anti vax thing flared up...

So I called my Sis the nurse. She has given thousands of shots to thousands of people. She's an expert at it.

I asked her "Sis, what do you think about people who believe some vaccines are not worth the risk?"

She said "They're idiots - Vaccines are good. People who dislike vaccines are bad."

So there you have it.

She also cleaned out a lot of bedpans over the years and has equally relevant opinions on that topic, if you are interested. (I'm not)

Blogger Tucker Goodrich December 29, 2015 11:41 AM  

"I looked at the wiki. It reports the number of cases, not the rate of infection. There were a lot more kids in 1950 than in 1850."

Go find some good epidemiological research from the 1850s. Here, I'll save you the trouble:

"Prior to 1912, measles was not a reportable disease in the U.S., so accurate numbers of cases are not available prior to that time."

http://www.nvic.org/vaccines-and-diseases/measles/measles-history-in-america.aspx

An argument based on statistics that don't exist is not a winning argument.

Blogger Scuzzaman December 29, 2015 11:42 AM  

@66:

The central ambition of the God Emperor of Dune - Leto, the son of Paul Muad'Dib Atreides - was to alter humanity to this end:

"To make a world where human kind can make its own future from moment to moment, free from one man's vision. Free from the perversion of the prophets words. And free of future pre-determined."

(That's a quote from another Frank Herbert book, but it was the reason Leto did what he did. To free humanity from [prescient] tyrants. Maybe it takes a bit of a squint to see that principle in this debate, but it is surely there, to my mind.)

Blogger rumpole5 December 29, 2015 11:43 AM  

Soon after the chickenpox vaccine came out I scouted out a clinic and had my 7 yoa son immunized. Serendipitous. A few weeks later we visited my in-laws in Cayman Brac to find that some Jamaican had introduced chicken pox to the island, and that half the Brac was sick with it. My son did not, and has not ever caught it, thank God. I think that the fact that he went through the childhood sickness episode when he went to school, at fivish, instead of in daycare as an infant, also helped him to be more robust. Stay at home moms work out better child disease wise (and probably venereal disease wise too, since the kids keep them occupied at home).

Blogger Nate December 29, 2015 11:44 AM  

"I'd guess that most rational pediatricians don't belong to the American Academy of Pediatrics either. Pro gun control and anti spanking? Sheesh."

No offense mate... but The AAP makes pediatricians look like the Elementary Ed majors of the medical community. there are obviously so excellent ones out there. Can be hard to find though.

Anonymous NorthernHamlet December 29, 2015 11:44 AM  

Nate,

I may be misremebering, but won't your kids have to get them all when they enter college if they go?

What was the reaction by your doctor when you told them no to the schedule? Any worry about crazy child abuse claims?

Blogger Scuzzaman December 29, 2015 11:47 AM  

@66:

my apologies: the connection to Dune itself is that this is the fate that Paul foresaw for himself and retreated from.

Blogger Tucker Goodrich December 29, 2015 11:49 AM  

"Polio vaccine saved a lot of people, but they never talk about the many, many people who died in testing it."

Because their were none. Salk demonstrated its safety by testing it on himself and his family. They then did a huge and very public trial test, which was a success.

Blogger Alexandros December 29, 2015 11:59 AM  

@64
On a philosophical level, what I wonder is: Did Edward Jenner rule out possible alternative explanations for why milk maids did not get smallpox? For example, milk maids had access to milk, so it seems possible to me that they were healthier than many others.

It's entirely possible; you would have to look up Edward Jenner's history. Variolation, the precursor to vaccination, was already widely known to produce results, so I think vaccination was his first hypothesis. Although, like vaccination, variolation killed a LOT of people; I believe, without consulting the history, that it was a 25% death rate for the smallpox version. There was a famous story where some early colonist walked up to people and blew smallpox postules in their faces (variolation); the proto-sjw in action.

Anyway, the way it works is you have a hypothesis, attempt to falsify it with an experiment, and then repeat with additional experiments until you are reasonably sure your hypothesis is not false.

Along the way, you publish your hypothesis, experimental setups, data, and invite other people to replicate the experiment so that they too can attempt to falsify the hypothesis. If pretty much everyone is able to replicate the experiment and unable to falsify the hypothesis, the hypothesis is generally considered sound.

This, by the way, is the big problem with modern research, especially in terms of FDA-regulated drugs.

The experiments conducted are prohibitively expensive in terms of both manpower and capital: not only can they not be reasonably replicated in terms of cost, but the sheer time required to run the experiment means no one bothers. I have no doubt that this is entirely by design.

In other words, the one guard against fraudulent data (other people running the experiment themselves) is effectively removed.

By default, you should not trust any modern research unless many people across the world can replicate the results themselves.

Anonymous The other robot December 29, 2015 12:08 PM  

They do use a type of cow pox (vaccinia) as the small pox vaccine.

My mistake. I know better now.

Anonymous Wendy December 29, 2015 12:09 PM  

Do I care if your kids are vaccinated? No. That's not my lookout.

That's all the vaccine schedule skeptic asks for. And I agree with Nate, quite refreshing from a pediatrician.

Blogger Midknight December 29, 2015 12:09 PM  

Amazing how the same people that tell us our medical system should be more like the european one don't like it when I say "great, I'd love to use their vaccination schedule since they're so much smarter..."

I believe in case by case. That some vaccinations have done far more good than harm.

That said, I count myself as one of the lucky few who dodged getting anthrax shots in the military, because the first couple rounds you could defer/decline if you weren't being posted overseas, and then I was due to get out. I'll note the documented issues were severe enough that the military didn't force the issue for people not actively serving in - field.

I also stopped taking flu shots after getting out. Still get a bad cold/flu occasionally, but not the guaranteed case I'd get shortly after every single flu shot, plus a couple more over the year.

Blogger WarKicker December 29, 2015 12:19 PM  

"I also find it amazing how much faith people put in medicines like antibiotics."

Tallawampus,

How often do get demands for an antibiotic for conditions that don't require such? I had a parent literally demand Augmentin for her child's otitis media with effusion, and quoted an ad from GlaxoSmithKline that stated that this drug cured "95% of ear infections". I told her she was confusing her child's condition with acute otitis media and that she was reading the 95% cure rate claim with an assumed metric of 0% if you didn't take the drug, but the reality is most children will clear their ear infections with expectant management, up to 88% based on some studies. You can imagine the reaction I received. With this kind of reasoning, it should be no surprise the resultant irrational faith in such drugs.

Blogger VD December 29, 2015 12:29 PM  

None of them started serious declines until the advent of vaccines.

You're entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts.


Neither are you, and you are absolutely and utterly wrong. Click on Vaccines on the right sidebar. You simply don't know what you are talking about.

Anonymous wEz December 29, 2015 12:39 PM  

Question about herd immunity. From a quick search I found a cdc page that says only 20-60 percent of adults recieve booster vaccines for ones that need to be updated. Wouldn't that mean those people are not protected anymore, thus making the high herd immunity rates nonsense, and a good percentage of the US adult population vulnerable? So why do we hear very little about adult boosters being stressed if in fact it would affect herd immunity rates? Thank you.

Blogger Student in Blue December 29, 2015 12:44 PM  

@VD
Click on Vaccines on the right sidebar.

Err... I don't see a Vaccines link on the right sidebar, Vox.

Anonymous vfm #0202 December 29, 2015 12:51 PM  

More credentialed, sure. Better trained at evaluating statistical evidence? A useful proxy would be STEM credentials. Unfortunately, this analysis of the data, obvious though it is, does not appear to have been done. Perplexing.

Blogger Red Jack December 29, 2015 12:52 PM  

A local friend of ours has a four year old in the PICU. She started having massive fevers, seizures, and is now semi comatose (brain damage).

The local doctor in Peroia said it "might be" something like MS caused by a Hep B vaccine.

Not sure what happened. Not sure how it will turn out, but it is food for thought

Blogger VD December 29, 2015 12:54 PM  

Ah, okay, then paste this into your browser: http://voxday.blogspot.com/search/label/vaccines. I have addressed the matter in detail, complete with graphs.

Blogger Tallawampus December 29, 2015 12:59 PM  

@88 WarKicker

I get it occasionally. Since I'm in private practice now (I'm retired Air Force) I've been able to slowly weed out or successfully educate the Always Want Antibiotics people.

Being in a doctor owned clinic is great, I have complete control over who I'll see. :)

Anonymous vfm #0202 December 29, 2015 1:02 PM  

@3 CM, Viruses don't have cells as you appear to believe.

It's a principle of logic that from a false premise any conclusion at all may be wrung, so now that you are informed of this fact, dialectically speaking you should carefully examine any conclusions, beliefs, and policies that might in some way depend... I know, it is to laugh.

So on the back foot, be advised that ScienceWords, having precise meanings, can turn your hand and give you a nasty gash when deployed rhetorically. Just sayin'.

Blogger The Other Robot December 29, 2015 1:10 PM  

They then did a huge and very public trial test, which was a success.

Wikipedia claims that Polio vaccines are about 95% effective at providing immunity.

That seems indistinguishable from the rate of immunity from actually getting the Polio virus.

Discuss.

Blogger The Other Robot December 29, 2015 1:15 PM  

None of them started serious declines until the advent of vaccines.

I have seen this argument elsewhere.

In any herd there will be some individuals who are naturally (genetically) immune (and some with such good health ...). There is, after all, genetic, natural immunity to some pathogens as well as humoral and cell-mediated ...

After repeated applications of a pathogen to that herd, over time the pathogen will kill off those with genetic susceptibility ... leaving a population with natural immunity.

How do you distinguish this process from the claimed vaccination based declines in rates of those pathogens?

Blogger Christopher Yost December 29, 2015 1:17 PM  

Ohmygawd, the anthrax shots in the military. Damned near a mutiny (I'm Navy) on every base.

What started me into looking into 'em. Was nothing but bullshit scare stories and misinformation.

Kinda my first "real world" experience with people purposely deluded.

Like I was, from reading all those Clancey novels and then joining up...

Anonymous vfm #0202 December 29, 2015 1:26 PM  

@35 Paranoid ravings tickle my data sense. My first hit on Nagalase informed me that it was part of virus coat proteins, so I knew I was in the batshit crazy ward. ScienceWord salad is basically the same tactic as the Warmists. Science has lots of credibility -- let's steal it! The self-esteem epidemic makes this ridiculously easy.
In case anyone else is curious about Nagalase, Gc-MAF, here's some data. Give it whatever wikioffset seems correct to you..

Gc-MAF
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Gc-MAF (or Gc protein-derived macrophage activating factor) is an immunomodulatory protein that, by affecting the immune system, may play a role in various diseases.[1]

In 2008 claims were made that Gc-MAF can provide a permanent cure for cancer and HIV by activating macrophage white blood cell production. These claims have been the subject of much criticism[2] and are not supported by scientific evidence. The papers supporting the claims have since been retracted by the journals in which they were published.[3] Consumers have been warned about illegal marketing of the substance over the internet.[4]

Blogger Phunctor December 29, 2015 1:31 PM  

why is anecdotal evidence completely ignored?

Because it's worthless.

Blogger Student in Blue December 29, 2015 1:33 PM  

@VD
Ah, okay, then paste this into your browser: http://voxday.blogspot.com/search/label/vaccines.

Thank you.

@33. Tucker Goodrich
None of them started serious declines until the advent of vaccines.

You're entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts.


In interests of expediting this discussion, here is a relevant post from VD where he thoroughly debunked the Measles portion of your argument.

And since you fashioned it as "None of them started serious declines"...

Blogger Tucker Goodrich December 29, 2015 1:53 PM  

"Neither are you, and you are absolutely and utterly wrong. Click on Vaccines on the right sidebar. You simply don't know what you are talking about."

I presume you're talking about the "vaccines" label, since there is no link on the right sidebar.

I did so. I noticed your "Measles: the actual risks" post. So I took a look at that as a starting point. You mention that the data comes from the CDC that you use o make your case, "...97.6 percent of the population-corrected decline in measles mortality took place prior to the introduction of measles vaccination.", so I went looking for it.

Turns out that it's not from the CDC. You did a cut & paste from this page on the Vaccination LIberation site:

http://www.vaclib.org/intro/measles-intro.htm

They claim the data's from the CDC's website, but never provide a link to the actual source. They do mention the CDC "Pink Book", and provide a link to it:

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/meas.pdf

But that doesn't contain the historical information, either. They do provide a chart from healthsentinel.com, but that chart has two problems: 1. the link no produces a 404 error, 2. it shows data going back to 1900. Since there is no data prior to 1912, the chart's clearly bogus, as are the numbers, and the 97% decline claim.

The actual CDC numbers, found in this census report:

http://www.census.gov/prod/99pubs/99statab/sec31.pdf (see page 10)

Show that the numbers of measles cases per 100k people went up and down over the years until the vaccine was introduced, when they dropped to nearly zero.

These are those numbers (for some reason they only show every five years):

Year Cases/100k
1912 310
1920 480.5
1925 194.3
1930 340.8
1935 584.6
1940 220.7
1945 110.2
1950 210.1
1955 337.9
1960 245.4
1965 135.1
1970 23.2
1975 11.3
1980 5.9

I made a spiffy chart, but can't embed it here. Love blogger.

Vaccination Liberation appears to have just made those high measles numbers up to make a case that vaccines are unneccesary.

So your argument that measles declined 97% before the vaccine was introduced is entirely without merit, by your own sources.

Blogger FP December 29, 2015 2:01 PM  

http://www.examiner.com/article/whistleblower-reveals-cdc-cover-up-linking-mmr-vaccine-to-autism

Why would the CDC cover up data? I mean, they're the government! You can trust the government!

Blogger tweell December 29, 2015 2:29 PM  

Tucker Goodrich, you seem to have missed a word - MORTALITY. Not number of cases, number of deaths.

Blogger Jehu December 29, 2015 2:29 PM  

The number of measles cases isn't what's being discussed, its the deaths associated with it. In the early 60s, pretty much everyone got measles but almost nobody died. Here's a link backing up Vox's claim from the CDC, that anti-vax shill you know.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/vsus/vsrates1940_60.pdf
Search inside the document for measles and you'll get the death rates going back to 1900 or so.

Blogger Tucker Goodrich December 29, 2015 2:31 PM  

OK, after much poking around, I found the CDC measles mortality data, it's here:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1522578/pdf/amjphnation00499-0004.pdf

In a doc from 1962. You'll note the raw data is not included, and the numbers start in 1912, since there was no data prior to then. Mortality did drop precipitously prior to the creation of the virus, but incidence did not. Since measles has many other effects than death, to focus on death alone is a bit misleading. (Mental retardation via encephalitis, for instance.)

Additionally, and one would think obviously, the fact that the death rate went down doesn't mean it's always going to stay down, especially since we don't know why it went down in the first place.

If you want to see the actual effects of various vaccines on disease incidence, see this site (which actually includes links to legit sources):

https://medium.com/@visualvaccines/graphic-proof-that-vaccines-work-with-sources-61c199429c8c#.3bn4lmyad

Blogger Joshua_D December 29, 2015 2:32 PM  

First of all, shut up Breeder.

Second, personal and anecdotal evidence is extremely relevant.

I personally have had a serious negative reaction to a drug, and I was a relatively healthy adult. I got sick, and the doctor prescribed me an antibiotic, Flagyl, because he thought I had a bacterial infection. That shit screwed me up. My shoulders and the palms of my hands when numb. The ring finger on both my hands were paralyzed, and my hip joints were affected so much that it was hard to walk. Everyone can theorize all they want about this and that, but it's a different story when shit gets real and you can't move your fucking fingers because you took some drug prescribed by some doctor that didn't really know shit about the drugs. Anyway, as you can tell, that situation still irritates me.


I also have three children, a six year old, four year old, and two year old. The six year old received most of her vaccinations through about 3 years old. By then we'd had our second, and had started reading more about vaccines. I think my second only received his first round. Then we decided to stop vaccinating the kids altogether. My third hasn't had any vaccines, and he is by far the healthiest. My middle boy is also healthy. I don't think there was much adverse impact from the shots he did receive. My oldest girl, however, has had some issues, and I'm confident that they are related to her shots.

And finally, I have a cousin whose baby girl had a vaccine reaction.

So, you know, I generally say “Screw vaccines,” when it comes to babies and children. If I was traveling to a foreign country, I'd probably consider a few vaccines. Maybe.

Blogger Joshua_D December 29, 2015 2:33 PM  

Subbing.

Blogger Tallawampus December 29, 2015 2:43 PM  

In pro vaccine but I have to interject here.

Measles mortality can be reduced by getting adequate levels of vitamin a, and reduced further with high doses. So better diet likely plays a part in this decreased mortality.

Reduction in cases of haemophilus influenza b meningitis and epiglottitis since introduction of the vaccine in the early 1990s is a better example.

Blogger Tucker Goodrich December 29, 2015 2:49 PM  

"Measles mortality can be reduced by getting adequate levels of vitamin a, and reduced further with high doses. So better diet likely plays a part in this decreased mortality."

Fair point. Better diet impacts lots of diseases...

"Reduction in cases of haemophilus influenza b meningitis and epiglottitis since introduction of the vaccine in the early 1990s is a better example...."

Or polio, or smallpox...

Blogger CM December 29, 2015 2:55 PM  

Vfm #0202

Here's what I know:

Vaccinations, having multiple ways of making them, can contain dead viruses.

Babies,especially newborns who are otherwise healthy,frequently are unable to handle their own dead material.

Yet we are supposed to believe that introducing a lot of dead,foreign material into a baby's blood is perfectly harmless.

Blogger Noah B #120 December 29, 2015 3:02 PM  

Most of the pro-vaxxers I've talked to are suspicious of pharmaceutical companies (and big corporations in general), but they are typically unaware that these companies are shielded from vaccine liability under federal law. Curiously, even after learning of big pharma's liability shield, they continue believe these same evil corporations are practically incapable of doing wrong insofar as vaccines are concerned. Cognitive dissonance this extreme is mind boggling.

Blogger Noah B #120 December 29, 2015 3:07 PM  

"None of them started serious declines until the advent of vaccines."

Clean drinking water, sanitary sewers, better nutrition, and improved air quality account for almost all of the decreases in disease and increases in longevity.

Engineers did this, not doctors.

Blogger Noah B #120 December 29, 2015 3:23 PM  

"it is always a risk reward equation. but again... some of the vaccines like the yearly flu vaccine don't work. Hell this year even the pharmacists will tell you it isn't working."

Every year is a subtly different excuse for why the flu vaccine didn't work.

Blogger Bluntobj Winz December 29, 2015 3:44 PM  

Holy crap, I'm late to this gunfight.

@Nate - You are the only one besides myself who I see in the comments that speak about the MMR vaccine being grown in the tissues harvested from an aborted baby in 1968. Preach it!

@Total-Vaxxers: CWD, Mad Cow, and Scrapie are all prion based diseases affecting the brain and are caused by feeding the organism its own flesh. The same thing happens with MMR's Rubella portion, as it contains human proteins. These proteins pass the blood brain barrier quite easily.

No one has ever studied these proteins to determine if any are prions.

I don't need a phd in immunology to look at certain fact patterns and diagnose risks, and to figure out which is a more serious argument against vaccines.

As to an earlier question about whooping cough, I'd point out again that it takes 5-6 does of the modern vaccine to get resistance, and it won't prevent transmission under 6 years of age. Those that get vaccinated are infected and shedding live virus for weeks afterward and are responsible for many infections even though they may appear asymptomatic or have a mild case.

Grrr.

Suffice to say that I plan do do extremely limited vaccinations where I pick the brand, and only after my kids are older, and never fucking MMR. Those who demand total vaccination are the modern day Waffen SS of SJW's, and deserve the same amount of mercy.

OpenID sigbouncer December 29, 2015 3:53 PM  

@100

Stepwise incubation of purified Gc protein with immobilized beta-galactosidase and sialidase generated probably the most potent macrophage activating factor (termed GcMAF) ever discovered, which produces no adverse effect in humans...

After about 16-22 administrations (approximately 3.5-5 months) of GcMAF, these patients had insignificantly low serum enzyme levels equivalent to healthy control enzyme levels, ranging from 0.38 to 0.63 nmole/min/mg protein, indicating eradication of the tumors. This therapeutic procedure resulted in no recurrence for more than 4 years.

In other words, the administration of GcMAF eradicated tumors and left patients cancer-free for 4+ years with no additional treatment!

Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/050553_Dr_Bradstreet_GcMAF_cancer_therapy.html#ixzz3vkGUxpmP


http://www.naturalnews.com/050553_Dr_Bradstreet_GcMAF_cancer_therapy.html#

Anonymous Bukulu December 29, 2015 3:57 PM  

Wow.

Certainly reevaluating my opinion of some people's credibility after witnessing this huge outbreak of conspiracy-theory nonsense.

Anonymous Mr. Rational December 29, 2015 4:06 PM  

@45 The polio shot is a killed-virus vaccine; you can't get the disease from it.  The attenuated live-virus vaccine was given on a sugar cube.

@50 I did hear talk about those who died from not having it.  Ever get an eyewitness account of the lives of kids in iron lungs?  They were neither long nor happy.  And the father of a very good friend of mine died from what was more than likely the weakness from partial polio paralysis in childhood.

Blogger VD December 29, 2015 4:19 PM  

Vaccination Liberation appears to have just made those high measles numbers up to make a case that vaccines are unneccesary.

I will look into it. But based on similar numbers out of the UK and other countries, they don't appear to have "just made them up. I note that you are completely ignoring the data from the Oxford Journal, which led to the same conclusion as the data I cited.

The CDC is not the only source of data on measles deaths. But we'll see; this may be an interesting way to demonstrate that the CDC is playing statistical games, as I suspect is the case.

If you're correct, I will admit it. And if you're not, well, then both you and the CDC will be exposed as unreliable.

Blogger Student in Blue December 29, 2015 4:22 PM  

@Bukulu
Certainly reevaluating my opinion of some people's credibility after witnessing this huge outbreak of conspiracy-theory nonsense.

At what point does skepticism become conspiracy theory? Seems to me like anytime there's skepticism regarding vaccinations, whether it's the US schedule, specific vaccinations, or anything else, it's immediately swept under the rug as "conspiracy theory".

So when is it conspiracy theory, and when is it skepticism?

Blogger VD December 29, 2015 4:27 PM  

In a doc from 1962. You'll note the raw data is not included, and the numbers start in 1912, since there was no data prior to then. Mortality did drop precipitously prior to the creation of the virus, but incidence did not. Since measles has many other effects than death, to focus on death alone is a bit misleading.

Are you nuts? Even that chart shows the death rate dropping by a factor of 50 from 1912 to 1959, which proves MY point, not yours. There is nothing misleading about demonstrating the idiocy of pro-vaxxers like you who run around shrieking that without vaccines, everyone is going to DIE is totally false, and that vaccines are clearly NOT responsible for the massive decline in deaths.

You are totally wrong. There is no way around it.

Blogger Scuzzaman December 29, 2015 4:31 PM  

"graphic-proof-that-vaccines-work"

This is (A) misrepresentation by implication, (B) bait and switch, and (C) therefore irrelevant.

There's never been any serious argument about whether or not vaccines "work" (depending on whatever metric you are using to define working).

This debate is not about efficacy, and attempts to switch this to a debate about efficacy are always made by the pro-vax crowd, because this is the only ground where they can win the argument.

This debate is about (A) the freedom of adults to choose for themselves what goes into their bloodstream, (B) the responsibility of parents to choose for their children what goes in their children's bloodstream, and (C) the idiocy of advocating for governmental control over (A) and (B).

As above, such claims are always predicated on an appeal to authority, to wit, that the government's employees know better than you do about what is good for you.

The deliberate and misrepresentative switching of goalposts to a debate about efficacy is the fascist's attempt to establish the superior competence of government employees to make life-altering decisions about YOUR life.

Fuck them. Fuck them all.

They don't have the right, they don't have the knowledge, they don't have the wisdom, they don't have your interests in mind, they don't have the power they claim. Everything they say is a lie, even when they quote undisputed facts, for their entire objective is to usurp your autonomy and render you a slave.

Fuck them. Fuck them all.

(It is true, many of them are True Believers™ and really believe hard and never ask why. That makes them useful idiots of the neo-feudalist wannabes, but no less dangerous. Arguably, their sincerity makes them more dangerous as it lends them a disingenuous facade.

Fuck them, anyway. Fuck them all.)

Blogger Kentucky Packrat December 29, 2015 4:32 PM  

The DTAP is 80% effective at protecting an individual from pertussis.

Bulls**t. Our whole family was up to date on DTAP. Little Miss finally got diagnosed with Pertussis after a bunch of antibiotics, Milady tested positive for pertussis, and the nurse contaminated my swab. The rumor mill was that the county Health Department was deliberately ruining tests to hide how rampant pertussis was in the city and how ineffective DTAP was in stopping it.

Anonymous Rith December 29, 2015 4:35 PM  

There is a term for a person who does not have the right to refuse medical treatment: slave.

I will resist enslavement with whatever force is necessary. So, as Vox says about the right to self-defense: come for them, I come for you.

Blogger Scuzzaman December 29, 2015 5:01 PM  

In my comments, I often touch on themes that space and time prevent being fully explored.

For example, in @123: above I make this statement:

"They don't have the right, they don't have the knowledge, they don't have the wisdom, they don't have your interests in mind, they don't have the power they claim."

This alludes to a problem of the modern True Believers™ in state authority, who in deference to John Ralston Saul's epic work 'Voltaire's Bastards' I like to call 'Nietzsche's Bastards', and that problem is this:

The state is their god!

They often claim to be atheists or pagans of various sorts, but make no mistake the state is their god and their objective is to wage their narcissistic jihad until we all submit to their one true god or are killed by their god for our refusal.

And to be fair, most of them are utterly ignorant of their own manic piety. (Sadly, self-awareness is a trait sorely lacking in the average human, and even moreso in the average accidental offspring of errant German philosophers.)

There are three characteristics which are (A) identifying marks of God and (B) are so because they belong ONLY to God. They are:

1. Omnipotence - ONLY God is all powerful. ONLY God has the power to cure all ills.
2. Ominiscience - ONLY God knows everything. ONLY God knows HOW to cure all ills.
3. Omnibenevolence - ONLY God is not willing that any should perish. ONLY God intends to cure all ills.

But the worshipers of the state habitually claim that their God possesses all three of these characteristics. In this thread alone we see them claiming this on behalf of their false god.

We see them claiming that the government and its employees WANT to keep us safe, even from ourselves! (It & they, do not.)

We see them claiming that the government knows HOW to keep us safe. (It does not.)

We see them claiming that the government has the POWER to keep us safe. (It does not.)

Any sane person must reject these false prophets and priests of their false god, but it is especially vital that Christians not fall into their rhetorical devices and unwittingly adopt their idolatry.

Remember:
-the state is NOT omnipotent; it can not keep you safe.
-the state is NOT omniscient; to knows not how to keep you safe.
-the state is NOT omnibenevolent; it wants not to keep you safe.

Why Nietzsche's Bastards? Here's why:

"But the state lies in all the tongues of good and evil; and whatever it says it lies; and whatever it has it has stolen.
Everything in it is false; it bites with stolen teeth, and bites often. It is false down to its bowels.
Confusion of tongues of good and evil; this sign I give you as the sign of the state. This sign points to the will to death! it points to the preachers of death!
All too many are born: for the superfluous the state was created!
See how it entices them to it, the all-too-many! How it swallows and chews and rechews them!
'On earth there is nothing greater than I: I am the governing hand of God.' -- thus roars the monster. And not only the long-eared and short-sighted fall upon their knees!
"

Apologies to our host for the diversion; I hope he will allow it.

Anonymous Wendy December 29, 2015 6:20 PM  

@119

Only since 1999. It's still used in other parts of the world.

Blogger Unknown December 29, 2015 6:31 PM  

My oldest daughter had a severe reaction to the DTP vaccine as an infant. An hour of convulsions and 4 days listlessness and intermittent unconsciousness.
And I had her pediatrician, who had been in the room with her, watching her convulse, report to the CDC (vaccine reactions are a reportable event) that she suffered a "mild neurological reaction" to the vaccine.
That is why your vaccine numbers are bunk.

Blogger Phillip George December 29, 2015 6:43 PM  

non participation is hurtful. It is the ultimate victim card to play.

don't dance at my gay wedding. You are hateful.

don't poison infants. You are hurtful.

The victim industrial complex never had it this good..

[ps. Chances of non drug injecting parents infant child contracting hepatitis B = zero. So why vaccinate? It's about controlling you. Nothing else, Control for money. Control for control's sake alone]

Anonymous Dr. J December 29, 2015 6:46 PM  

Bulls**t. Our whole family was up to date on DTAP.

This really nails it. Seroconversion rates are not 100%, and therefore vaccination does not guarantee immunity. Nate is also correct about the aborted fetus business. For conscientious objectors, MMR has both a poor seroconverstion rate and is fetus-derived.

Obviously some folks on this site have background in immunology (see the above about cell-mediated versus humoral immunity). The problem with current vaccine development is that no one is really looking at rates of adverse events, because the default has been to vaccinate everyone to everything. The first Hep B vaccine is administered before thymic T-cell education is completed. There needs to be a large prospective study comparing rates of several problems in vaccinated, delayed-vaccinated and unvaccinated populations. Outcomes of target disease incidence and complications, mortality, development of autoimmune disease/allergy, cancer rates and, yes, autism would be the most high-yield data. Many of those outcomes would relate to future derangement of the immune system. It's not a particularly expensive study to undertake either - it just couldn't be effectively randomized.

But the pro-vaxxers tell us we're not allowed to do such a study, because "shut up," they explain.

Anonymous Breeder December 29, 2015 6:57 PM  

@55 Nate: Somehow that makes us crazy.

No, it doesn't. I've never claimed you're crazy. I've merely pointed out that you have a lot of magic-thinkers on your side who are a whole lot more barking-moonbat-crazy than the average kool-aid drinking pro-vaxxer who takes the authorities at their word.

Most people just get the shots on blind faith.
Some people get all of the shots after reading up.
Some people get some of the shots after reading up.
Some people get no shots after reading up.

And in that last group, a whole lot of people are reading things like The Food Babe that have them avoiding any part of the medical establishment - of which vaccinations are merely a subset - and believing that their children will grow two heads if they've eaten anything GMO unless they immediately apply peppermint to the neck. (Hyperbole, but you get the drift.)

The whole point of my original comment was in direct response to Vox's post. Sure, anti-vaxxers might be white, educated, middle class, etc. A good contingent of them are also magic-thinking granolas.

Anonymous Breeder December 29, 2015 7:02 PM  

Clarification: I keep referencing "sides." I should make it clear that I don't advocate government mandated vaccinations. I consider myself a "pro-vaxxer" in that I believe that vaccinations (on the whole) are safe and effective. Obviously, there are exceptions, and my family has deviated from the recommended schedule. However, we still do vaccinate.

But of course everyone should have the freedom to make their own choice.

Anonymous wEz December 29, 2015 7:22 PM  

Stfu tard. You're annoying as f*ck.

Blogger Tallawampus December 29, 2015 7:24 PM  

In pro vaccine but I have to interject here.

Measles mortality can be reduced by getting adequate levels of vitamin a, and reduced further with high doses. So better diet likely plays a part in this decreased mortality.

Reduction in cases of haemophilus influenza b meningitis and epiglottitis since introduction of the vaccine in the early 1990s is a better example.

Anonymous wEz December 29, 2015 7:24 PM  

Thank God. Atleast you have that going for ya.

Blogger Phillip George December 29, 2015 7:29 PM  

@DrJ, it's the irony of ironies. Politics, medicine and science are all rolled into one cauldron. The corruption of science falsely so called in the climate change political arena could hardly be more complete.

And meanwhile Christianity comes full circle back to a rational evidence based discussion and understanding. Empiricism no less.

The HepB for infants was what convinced me logic has nothing to do with this. It's all someone or another's altar. If they weren't sacrificial altars I'd be laughing.



Blogger GoodShipG December 29, 2015 8:21 PM  

For a list of approved vaccines from aborted cell lines:
http://www.rtl.org/prolife_issues/LifeNotes/VaccinesAbortion_FetalTissue.html

Plus, I, a conservative Christian, have had negative repercussions from vaccines. It's not one-size-fits all.

Blogger Phillip George December 29, 2015 8:25 PM  

the Hippocratic Oath was first do no harm. It behooves oath takers to assiduously analyse statistics of harm and complete the epidemiological analysis. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Anaphylaxis and neurogenic shock death can be buried statistically but neurologic developmental delay is harder to accommodate.

Meanwhile where is the research on invivo attenuation? Synergistic benefits of adjunct therapy. Pre administration blood studies or concomitant risk factors.

If it were simply 'science' it would be a matter of research. But people aren't looking. So they don't want to know the science. They are busy being heroes and high priest of the new age pseudo science.

Blogger Raziel Walker December 29, 2015 8:43 PM  

Slightly less as a million people in the Netherlands that are not vaccinated, mostly in the bible belt, so every few years there is an epidemic of something like the measles and one or more children die as a result.
I found mention of 5 deaths from the measles over the past 15 years.

Wonder how effective herd immunity is in preventing cases and spreading?

Before vaccinations about 600 people a year died from the diseases now vaccinated against. (Dutch population was about 10 million around 1950).

Blogger The Other Robot December 29, 2015 8:47 PM  

Reduction in cases of haemophilus influenza b meningitis and epiglottitis since introduction of the vaccine in the early 1990s is a better example.

Are you certain there is no other explanation for this reduction? A change in behavior?

Blogger Tallawampus December 29, 2015 9:37 PM  

@140 The Other Robot

No I'm not certain. But comparing 1990 rates to 2015 rates is more comparable than 1912 to anything after 1950. Hygiene, sanitation and diet are the same I'd assume.

Anecdotally - ahem - pediatrician's just 10 years senior to me did lots more spinal taps than now. And in 13 years I've only seen one case of epiglottitis, it used to be more common. All coincident with release of the Hib vaccine. There are graphs with actual numbers at the CDC Pink Book site.

Though I don't think the argument is over efficacy necessarily, but over government control. And just to be on record, I firmly believe parents should decide what's best for their children, not the government.

Interestingly my autocorrect tries to change Hib to Bible. Heh.

Anonymous JRL December 29, 2015 11:26 PM  

I happened to have what a doctor diagnosed as shingles last year, and it was the mildest case you have ever seen (nothing like the pics you find in searches), and that is certainly due to having the actual illness earlier. So, decades later, I'm grateful.

You wouldn't even get shingles if you hadn't been infected with the chicken pox virus.

To me, that is the downside of not vaccinating for chicken pox.

On a side note, when my kids caught chicken pox, I could feel my body mounting an immune reaction. What remains to be seen is if the vast reduction in chicken pox among children will lead to an increase in shingles among adults who are not getting an immunity "booster" via exposure.

Anonymous JRL December 29, 2015 11:27 PM  

At least there is a shingles vaccine.... :)

Blogger G-S. December 29, 2015 11:33 PM  

Immigrants have been coming to America for centuries. What has stopped the spread of disease is vaccinations. This is not hard people.

Anonymous VFM 261 December 29, 2015 11:43 PM  

The chances of the current ruling party convicting her of a disqualifying crime are not just zero, the probability is negative.

IOW if it's bad enough they'll 'investigate' and do whatever is necessary to prevent future problems.

Anonymous cheddarman December 30, 2015 12:18 AM  

Immigration is a bad public health practice. Good public health practices save more lives than any vaccine or vaccine combination ever will.

Blogger Tallawampus December 30, 2015 12:44 AM  

@142 JRL

"On a side note, when my kids caught chicken pox, I could feel my body mounting an immune reaction. What remains to be seen is if the vast reduction in chicken pox among children will lead to an increase in shingles among adults who are not getting an immunity "booster" via exposure. "

That is actually true. It used to be rare for pediatricians to get shingles because of frequent exposure to kids with chickenpox. Now we get shingles as often as everyone else. I have been a victim of this unintended consequence. :P

Blogger rtp December 30, 2015 1:08 AM  

No vaccine works. No vaccine could work. They are a ridiculous and dangerous answer to a question only a complete lunatic would think to ask.


The purpose of the polio vaccine was to bring about a reduction in total rates of non-trauma paralysis and crippling. It failed.



The purpose of the rubella vaccine was to bring about a reduction in total rates of congenital defects. It failed.



The purpose of the measles vaccine was to bring about a reduction in total rates of encephalitis and deafness. It failed.



The purpose of the Hep B vaccine was to bring about a reduction in total rates of liver cancer/disease. It failed.



The purpose of the Hib and Prevnar vaccines was to bring about a reduction in total rates of meningitis/pneumonia/sepsis. They failed.



The purpose of the diphtheria/pertussis vaccines was to bring about a reduction in acute respiratory infections. They failed.



The purpose of the mumps vaccine was to reduce sterility. It failed.



References

Rubella and congenital defects: http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5701a2.htm. http://www.researchgate.net/publication/8935557_The_Metropolitan_Atlanta_Congenital_Defects_Program_35_Years_of_Birth_Defects_Surveillance_at_the_Centers_for_Disease_Control_and_Prevention



Polio and paralysis/crippling:



extranet.who.int/polis/public/CaseCount.aspx and http://www.who.int/bulletin/archives/78(3)321.pdf (see data for total AFP in India and other developing countries in 1996 and again in 2014) as well as http://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/ssb/v18n6/v18n6p20.pdfHYPERLINK "http://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/ssb/v18n6/v18n6p20.pdf%A0and" and http://www.census.gov/people/disability/ publications/sipp2010.html (Table A-4) (for disability rates). And http://www.christopherreeve.org/site/c.mtKZKgMWKwG/b.5184189/k.5587/Paralysis_Facts__Figures.htm (Around one in 50 Americans have some paralysis and around 40 per cent of those cases are due to disease).



Diphtheria/pertussis and acute respiratory disease: http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa0804877 and http://www.pharmacytoday.co.nz/news/2015/may-2015/05/respiratory-hospitalisations-keep-climbing-despite-healthcare-improvements.aspx



Hep B vaccine and liver cancer/disease:


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19224838 and http://news.sky.com/story/1418422/dramatic-rise-in-liver-disease-deaths



Hib vaccine and meningitis/pneumonia/sepsis. http://www9.health.gov.au/cda/source/rpt_2.cfm... (look at meningococcal disease (invasive) and pneumococcal disease (invasive)) and because of the dismal failure of this vaccine it was inevitably followed by further attempts to vaccinate people against meningitis supposedly caused by other strains (eg Prevnar) showing that abject lunacy (doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result) is the standard procedure for vaccination policy experts.



Measles vaccine and encephalitis/deafness. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2870605/ and http://www.hear-it.org/35-million-Americans-suffering-from-hearing-loss




I will give these two non-government sites - www.childhealthsafety.com/graphs (all of the data comes from government mortality data) and http://vaccinationdilemma.com/chapters/Chapter2.pdf because they demonstrate that the notion that vaccines save lives is a complete lie and the WHO cannot be trusted at all on this issue.

Blogger rtp December 30, 2015 1:09 AM  

So what has happened to all these so-called vaccine preventable diseases if their complications are still just as, if not more, common but we no longer hear about them?



They have all been renamed – differentially diagnosed.



Measles has been renamed roseola, fifth disease, etc;



Polio has been renamed Guillain Barre, transverse myelitis, coxsackie, MS, cerebral palsy, viral meningitis (we actually use more respirators today than we ever did iron lungs by the way it is just that iron lungs were too expensive and dangerous to keep using);



Diphtheria/pertussis were renamed respiratory syncytial virus, croup, strep, tonsillitis etc;



Hepatitis just runs its way through the alphabet;



Meningitis/pneumonia/sepsis blamed on Hib was renamed meningitis/pneumonia/sepsis blamed on some other bacteria;



Smallpox was renamed monkey pox/severe chicken pox.



In a nutshell, the entire so-called success of every single vaccine is nothing more than a self-fulfilling prophecy. But how?



Once a vaccine is introduced doctors are prejudiced against diagnosing that condition based on their belief/hope that the vaccine will work. Indeed, this is why the gold standard for testing is supposed to be a *double* blind placebo trial - the doctor is not supposed to know you received the treatment because it will bias their diagnoses. Unfortunately, the data that is used to prove that vaccines work is not blinded.

Now, while this pro-treatment bias makes perfect sense some of you might want to see more concrete evidence of it and you are in luck because, you see, while doctors don’t generally need much encouragement in their pro-treatment bias, health bureaucracies will often explicitly encourage it anyway.



"To minimize the problem of false positive laboratory results, it is important to restrict case investigation and laboratory tests to patients most likely to have measles (i.e., those who meet the clinical case definition, especially if they have risk factors for measles, such as being unvaccinated,[...]"



 www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/surv-manual/chpt07-measles.html



And here is the UK's National Health Service: "Following assessment, if a diagnosis of measles is considered likely, it is essential to notify the local Health Protection Unit (HPU)" and subsequently: "Measles is very unlikely in people who have been fully immunized", followed by “Consider a different cause if the patient is likely to have immunity” http://cks.nice.org.uk/measles#!diagnosissub



And this is for diphtheria: "Because diphtheria has occurred only rarely in the United States in recent years, many clinicians may not include diphtheria in their differential diagnoses. Clinicians are reminded to consider the diagnosis of respiratory diphtheria in patients with membranous pharyngitis and who are not up-to-date with vaccination against diphtheria."



http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/surv-manual/chpt01-dip.html



And this is for pertussis http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/im/vpd-mev/pertussis/professionals-professionnels-eng.php. According to the Canadian Public Health Agency only those who are not vaccinated (or for whom immunity has ‘waned’) are “at risk”.



Other health agencies (such as those in Australia) will be slightly less explicit and they might describe those who are not vaccinated with terms like “susceptible” but the implication is the same for doctors.



In addition to the above, (as you can see from the above links and this one http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/surv-manual/chpt12-polio.html and http://vactruth.com/2015/07/05/cdc-made-polio-disappear/) once a vaccine is introduced, generally speaking the diagnostic criteria is strengthened such that all cases need to be confirmed with a laboratory test (whereas before practically all cases are diagnosed on symptoms alone). Along with the pro-treatment bias of the doctors this pretty much guarantees that the number of diagnosed cases will fall dramatically - irrespective of whether the vaccine did any good.

Blogger rtp December 30, 2015 1:15 AM  

And I love the people here saying that chicken pox virus causes shingles.

Sorry but the whole chicken pox (varicella) virus causing shingles is proof positive (as though any more was needed) of the colossal fraud of vaccinations. You see if this virus (and the same holds true for measles, HPV and Hep B) was able to be harboured in people's bodies for years - decades even - twiddling its thumbs before exploding in an orgy of pathogenesis then clearly the entire concept of immunity is a bare faced lie isn't it?

If there is such a thing as chronic infection then clearly exposure to a virus doesn't and can't provide for any sort of immunity - neither from a vaccine nor natural infection.

Every single last aspect of this paradigm is abject nonsense starting from the idea that disease can be transmitted from one person to another. If that were so then doctors all throughout history would have had the same lifespan of a fruit fly.

Disease is caused by poisoning and trauma. Because both of these things *can* be (but often aren't) shared disease can sometimes cluster but those who are exposed to sick people all their lives are largely unaffected.

Anonymous Bukulu December 30, 2015 1:21 AM  

Student in Blue @ 121,

I'm talking about stuff like the cancer-curing doc, not about everyone who expressed any reservations about vaccinations.

Blogger rtp December 30, 2015 1:22 AM  

And smallpox was never eradicated either. Its success is just like the others - a self fulfilling prophecy.


First ask this question: "given that the virus thought to cause smallpox is so tiny, how on Earth did the great medical minds know that it didn't exist anywhere on the planet when they declared it to be eradicated? Are they omniscient because one would think that no mere mortal could possibly know such a thing?"

But hang on. Surely if the CDC/WHO etc had found smallpox virus then the whole caper would be over right? Well that’s the thing. Just like you have seen with the so-called success of the other so-called VPDs, circular arguments are all pervasive in this paradigm.

The CDC actually admit that positive tests along with smallpox symptoms would not generally mean a smallpox diagnosis because - in a wonderful piece of circular reasoning - smallpox doesn't exist anymore.

“In the absence of known smallpox disease, the predictive value of a positive smallpox diagnostic test is extremely low; therefore, testing to rule out smallpox should be limited to cases that fit the clinical case definition in order to lower the risk of obtaining a false-positive test result. “ http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/smallpox/diagnosis/casedefinition.asp and what is more even the deified polymerase chain reaction (PCR) can and has apparently given positive results for smallpox since its supposed eradication but, again, it couldn't have been smallpox because we all know smallpox doesn't exist does it? http://www.who.int/csr/disease/smallpox/abstract_meyer.pdf

" Widespread smallpox testing, in the absence of disease, is likely to result in false-positive test results with unnecessary and alarming public health and security responses” along with "in the absence of endemic smallpox disease, the indiscriminate use of variola tests *will* [emphasis mine] lead to false positives" http://emergency.cdc.gov/agent/smallpox/diagnosis/pdf/poxalgorithm5-2-14.pdf.

Here are two stories related to the same outbreak. http://newsjharkhand.com/Topstories.asp?Details=2391 but not to worry you see because our erstwhile medical officials almost immediately decided that despite the children dying of pox conditions it couldn’t possibly have been smallpox http://zeenews.india.com/home/no-small-pox-in-jharkhand-officials_695153.html. Note that they had already decided it wasn’t smallpox before they had done the lab tests.

And here is photographic proof that smallpox is still with us https://www.google.com.au/search?q=monkey+pox+photo&client=safari&rls=en&biw=1430&bih=869&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjvopTo-ILKAhXEYqYKHayGDh8QsAQIHA#tbm=isch&q=monkeypox+photo

If anybody can discern the difference between those of the above and those of smallpox then you have done particularly well - or you are just making shit up.

Blogger Doc Rampage December 30, 2015 1:34 AM  

@96: "It's a principle of logic that from a false premise any conclusion at all may be wrung"

From a *pair of contradictory premises*, any statement may be proven. This is not true if all of your premises are consistent, even if one or more are false. If it were, then there would be a purely logical test to prove the falseness of any false statement.

Anonymous map December 30, 2015 1:35 AM  

Didn't Vox present a study from Genentech that showed something like 94% of the seminal papers in their field had results that were not reproducible?

The government cannot be trusted. Anything the government asks you to do they want done for either power over you or for reducing their costs.

Like the breastfeeding mania. It's not that its healthier. It just costs the government less money to not have to buy baby formula.

Blogger Scuzzaman December 30, 2015 2:14 AM  

@rtp

Thanks for that information. Always good to get it straight from the horse's mouth.

I'd just like to add some points regarding the modern flu boondoggles.

As an example, this article: http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/flu-deaths-reality-check-1.1127442

Here's a precis:

Crowe highlights the often-parroted, official Canadian estimate of between 2000 and 8000 yearly deaths from flu.

Then she gets down to business.

At the time of the CBC News article (11/25/2012), the FluWatch/Public Health Agency of Canada figures for 2012 flu deaths in Canada? How many deaths?

One.

One death.



“It is simply no longer possible to believe much of the clinical research that is published, or to rely on the judgment of trusted physicians or authoritative medical guidelines. I take no pleasure in this conclusion, which I reached slowly and reluctantly over my two decades as an editor of The New England Journal of Medicine.” —Marcia Angell, MD (“Drug Companies and Doctors: A story of Corruption.” NY Review of Books, Jan. 15, 2009.)

Blogger Scuzzaman December 30, 2015 2:16 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Scuzzaman December 30, 2015 2:18 AM  

" ...

Therefore, even if you assume the flu vaccine is useful and safe, it couldn’t possibly prevent all those “flu cases” that aren’t flu cases.

The vaccine couldn’t possibly work.

The vaccine isn’t designed to prevent fake flu, unless pigs can fly.

Here’s the exact quote from Peter Doshi’s BMJ review, “Influenza: marketing vaccines by marketing disease” (BMJ 2013; 346:f3037):

“…even the ideal influenza vaccine, matched perfectly to circulating strains of wild influenza and capable of stopping all influenza viruses, can only deal with a small part of the ‘flu’ problem because most ‘flu’ appears to have nothing to do with influenza. Every year, hundreds of thousands of respiratory specimens are tested across the US. Of those tested, on average 16% are found to be influenza positive.

“…It’s no wonder so many people feel that ‘flu shots’ don’t work: for most flus, they can’t.”

Because most diagnosed cases of the flu aren’t the flu. ... "

... and etc.

Anonymous vfm #0202 December 30, 2015 2:21 AM  

@154 False premises are viral, like SJW entryists. Having admitted a falsehood* as a premise, we need only affirm its negation, itself true by construction*, to arrive at our contradictory pair. And anything at all logically follows.

Anonymous FAILBOAT December 30, 2015 2:36 AM  

The decision to vaccinate or not vaccinate in the mind of the parent is framed as follows: 'There is a small but certain harm that will be inflicted by administration of the vaccine, in addition to a small risk of significant complications. The disease that the vaccine is intended to protect against has been mostly eradicated, and my child will not be permitted to be around the kinds of dirty disgusting people who carry diseases anyway, so the risk of infection is essentially zero. Under these circumstances, do I vaccinate my child or not?'

There is also an element of status signaling here, in that a pure and perfect child can be kept in the loving arms of a parent, instead of exposed to the impure and unclean.

The demographic named in the article is likely much more sensitive to the argument as framed above than other demographics, especially those that are well known for living in crab baskets where 'everyone else is doing it, are you weird or something?' is an effective argument in favor of nearly anything.

Vaccination is imperfect science, and while things are certainly better than they were today, fundamentally modern vaccination is a direct descendant of 'variolation', whereby individuals would roll a 1/50 chance of death due to smallpox at the time of their choosing, instead of risking the 1/3 chance of death if they should happen to be surprised by an epidemic. "Herd immunity" can be likened to the healthy men of the family who left the farm to engage in commerce, and therefore, risked smallpox exposure, engaging in variolation in a house off to the edge of the farm, absorbing the illness, and being certain that they would not catch smallpox in town, and bring it back to their un-variolated, weak, women and small children, who were too precious to roll the 1/50 dice with.

Rich white liberals are well known for k-selected parenting strategies, so the conclusions of this article should come as no surprise to anyone.

Blogger rtp December 30, 2015 3:00 AM  

FAILBOAT, why don't you try rebutting my arguments instead of just making up a bunch of speculation as to why anybody who disagrees with you must be wrong because SCIENCE!!!

Blogger Scuzzaman December 30, 2015 4:09 AM  

"Vaccination is imperfect science"

Imperfect, corrupt, compromised, and dangerous science. So thoroughly perverted it works against the original objectives of the medical profession and is actively harming people, making them sick, and exploiting disease, prolonging suffering, and dispensing death.

Fixed that for ya.

Blogger CM December 30, 2015 6:01 AM  

Like the breastfeeding mania. It's not that its healthier. It just costs the government

I would have expected this the other way around... especially considering women on WIC who are breastfeeding can't exchange the formula out for something else.

The government is quite happy to supply food for your hungry baby in order to keep you dependent on the government for what is precious to you. Breastfeeding is actually one of the easiest ways for a new mom to assert independence from government as her child is now provided for. It is one less thing for gov't to exert control over.

Blogger S1AL December 30, 2015 7:16 AM  

"The purpose of the polio vaccine was to bring about a reduction in total rates of non-trauma paralysis and crippling. It failed."

No, no it was not. The purpose of the polio vaccine was to reduce the rate of contraction of polio.

Anonymous SumDood December 30, 2015 9:32 AM  

@Nate "So how long were you in the friend-zone bitter gamma?"

For precisely the same amount of time that you were friendzoned by Neil Patrick Harris.

(I am giving you the benefit of the doubt in assuming you are heterosexual; if not, accept my apologies)

Anonymous Anonymous December 30, 2015 1:10 PM  

@ Banjo

>But I sure do wonder what else might have happened around 1960 that is being ignored...

It wasn't JUST 1960. The DEATH rates from measles had been on a massive downward trend for well over a century.

See: http://www.dissolvingillusions.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/G11.6-US-Measles-1900-19871.png

Moreover, it wasn't just diseases that had vaccines developed for them, a host of other diseases -- often nutrition & vitamin related -- followed the same downward path, note the parallels of Measles and Scurvy: http://www.dissolvingillusions.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/G15.3-UK-Scurvy-Measles-1901-1967.png

One should also note that along with the supposed new "epidemics" of things like Measles, well BIG surprise but a lot of those other old "nutrition" related diseases (including Scurvy) are coming back too: http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/22/health/victorian-diseases-england-comeback/

Now you tell me, is Scurvy coming back because of people NOT vaccinating their children? (Hint: there is no vaccine for Scurvy, never has been; it's a deficiency of dietary Vitamin C.)

Anonymous Reader January 01, 2016 12:14 AM  

We always say here at home, that we know enough to know that we don't know everything.

With regards to medical care, we rely on the experts, and those who had the training.

I'm looking at my 2 children's (now 23 and 24 years old) Personal Health records, and saw that both of them got Hep B vaccination, 4 days after birth and 6 months after birth, respectively, and then repeated 3 times within an 18-month period. They had all the recommended vaccinations up until they're 5 years old. They did not experience any side effects. Of course some children might not be as lucky as my children.

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