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Sunday, December 20, 2015

Freedom trumps "free speech"

Eugene Volokh somehow manages to completely miss the salient point. This is why lawyers tend to be intrinsically flawed defenders of freedom; their training predisposes them to miss the forest for the trees:
Monday, a three-judge U.S. Court of Appeals for the 11th Circuit panel handed down a third opinion in Wollschlaeger v. Governor, the Florida “Docs vs. Glocks” case. Florida law limits doctors’ conversations with patients about guns. The first opinion in the case held that the law wasn’t really a speech restriction, because it just regulated the practice of medicine (a deeply unsound view, I think). The second opinion, issued after a petition for rehearing, changed course and held that the law was a speech restriction, but that — as a restriction on professional-client speech — it had to be judged under “intermediate scrutiny,” which it passed.
First of all, since the State regulates doctors and protects them from competition, they can do anything they want with regards to how they go about their business. Second, as the article shows, what is actually being prohibited is doctors being used as a line of attack against gun rights.
It bans doctors “from unnecessarily harassing a patient about firearm ownership during an examination.” This means, according to the panel majority, that a doctor “should not disparage firearm-owning patients, and should not persist in attempting to speak to the patient about firearm ownership when the subject is not relevant [based on the particularized circumstances of the patient’s case, such as the patient’s being suicidal] to medical care or safety.”
And whenever there is a conflict between gun rights and speech rights, gun rights much always come first, because gun rights defend speech rights far more effectively than speech rights defend gun rights.

But that is a philosophical point, not a legal one, which is why even a libertarian lawyer is likely going to miss it. Here is the crux of his error:
Now I think that the supposed imbalance of power between doctor and patient, like the supposed imbalance of power among students, is quite overstated.
That's completely absurd. This attempt to turn the medical community into a white-coated Stasi should be shot down in any and every way necessary. 

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106 Comments:

Blogger bookstopper December 20, 2015 8:11 AM  

It's possible that the lawyers think they can't come out and argue their legal arguments from their philosophy because a court operating from a different philosophical principle can clearly see how to overrule them.

Blogger Ron December 20, 2015 8:16 AM  

It bans doctors “from unnecessarily harassing a patient about their Christian beliefs during an examination.”

It bans doctors “from unnecessarily harassing a patient about if the patients has not yet found Jesus during an examination.”

It bans doctors “from unnecessarily harassing a patient about their black ancestry during an examination.”

It bans doctors “from unnecessarily harassing a female patient about being single during an examination.”

On the one hand, he's right. Doctors should be able to talk frankly about what they observe. If a doctor sees that a man is engaged in very dangerous sexual practices, he should be able to advise that man to stop going to gay bathhouses and having unprotected sex with a variety of equally sick, mentally unstable men.

But who are we kidding? The above necessary conversation would result in the doctors' termination within 5 minutes. To pretend that we are protecting his free speech in order to allow him to effectively do his job is to completely ignore that his free speech has already been curtailed.

However, given that, I still would have a big problem with a ban, except for one thing that Vox has said

And whenever there is a conflict between gun rights and speech rights, gun rights much always come first, because gun rights defend speech rights far more effectively than speech rights defend gun rights.

No gun rights = no free speech. The crux of every liberty depends on this one. Anyone going for that right, is effectively having an argument over the best way to rape 10 year old girls in public. We hunt down and kill people who do that.

Blogger Paul, Dammit! December 20, 2015 8:23 AM  

My standard response, and the one that I suggested to my son, is to ask the doctor for the password for his home alarm system, as it is in the public interest that homes be secure.

Blogger CM December 20, 2015 8:27 AM  

Our well-visits to the Pediatrician always has the question about gun ownership.

You don't need to look very far to see how doctors are given more power than their patients. Especially in pediatrics.

Our son spent a week in NICU for a relatively minor problem. I felt helpless and powerless. If I were to dare to refuse treatment to my newborn, how likely could they call my parenting ability into question?

If we were to ever get a gun, i would be very skeptical about letting my ped know.

Anonymous Willi Meunzenberg December 20, 2015 8:35 AM  

Physicians have no expertise in this area. None.

Trauma docs, (ER and Surgeons) in fact, tend to be the worst, because of sample bias- when all you see are accidental shootings and dindu disputation, you mistakenly think guns are somehow the cause, instead of low IQ, poor impulse control, and razor-thin violence thresholds.

The racial disparities are plain to them, but, being Children of the Narrative, acknowledging that fact would be Badthink, so they tend to practice Crimestop and EvilWhiteChristianNRAblame.

The fact that gun violence breaks down cleanly along racial lines leads to DOUBLEBADTHINK-
So, As with TSA and the police and the education establishment and #BlackLivesMatter-

"When disparities appear that make protected groups look bad, inmediately blame Whites for said disparity."

The Florida docs are just following their conditioning,. It's what intelligensia do, after all...

Blogger Dexter December 20, 2015 8:37 AM  

Our pediatrician has never asked, but I would definitely lie and say, "No, bad evil guns, I hate them."

Then I'd never use that doc again.

Blogger Dexter December 20, 2015 8:38 AM  

Physicians have no expertise in this area. None.

Heh. I know some docs who have walk-in closets full of guns, and built an extension on their house to display all their hunting trophies.

Anonymous Ain December 20, 2015 8:43 AM  

"If we were to ever get a gun, i would be very skeptical about letting my ped know."

Why the hell would you tell him something that's none of his business? It won't be of a benefit to you in any way, shape or form.

Anonymous Fred December 20, 2015 8:46 AM  

If physicians DID have expertise, they would RECOMMEND gun ownership to their patients, in the same spirit as seat belts- a preventative that saves far more lives than it harms.

Blogger VD December 20, 2015 8:49 AM  

The statistical fact is that blacks are far more dangerous to people, including other blacks, than guns are, and yet doctors don't ask about one's contacts with black individuals or recommend staying away from them.

Blogger John Diaz December 20, 2015 8:50 AM  

Do you own any firearms

Own guns no why do I need a gun.

Anonymous Al Sharpton December 20, 2015 8:56 AM  

"The statistical fact is that blacks are far more dangerous to people, including other blacks, than guns are, and yet doctors don't ask about one's contacts with black individuals or recommend staying away from them."

No, because Ben Carson. And Obama. And poor nutrition. And school funding. And driving while black. And....

Blogger Salt December 20, 2015 9:15 AM  

unless the doctor “in good faith believes that this information is relevant to the patient’s medical care or safety, or the safety of others.”

A firearm, i.e. in a gun safe at home, has zero to do with the doctor removing a hangnail, checking to see if it is actually the flu or something else, or any other medical procedure.

The doctor may think of himself as a care-giver and, because he cares so much, he's free to dispense his advice. Perhaps he should also think of advising on one's financial portfolio. Patient might banker-dive from the 32nd floor, and land on some poor slob.

One thing I like about my dentist. He's a hunter and loves to talk guns.



Blogger Nate December 20, 2015 9:22 AM  

"Now I think that the supposed imbalance of power between doctor and patient, like the supposed imbalance of power among students, is quite overstated."

He only thinks that because he's never had a doctor snap his fingers and have 4 guards appear and strap his ass to do a bed.

Blogger Nate December 20, 2015 9:26 AM  

A subset of doctors are do-gooders and went into it to be do-gooders specifically.

any of them from leftist families or blue states are likely to believe all kinds of statist garbage about guns. Especially the pediatricians.

It not so much entryism, as a natural course of leftist seeing an opportunity and trying to capitalize on it. Leftists pressuring other leftists to do some more of the dirty work.

But this is of course in no way new. It if was new... these laws wouldn't be on the books already. This is just a fight to try to take back some ground they lost almost 20 years ago.

Blogger Steve, the Dark Ninja of Mockery December 20, 2015 9:26 AM  

Doctors are arrogant wankers who should shut the fuck up.

Here in God's own country, England, our prostate-fondlers have become so inflated with conceit that the British Medical Association now sees itself as an authority on everything from supermarket beer promotions to what the tax rate on sugar should be.

Anonymous WillBest December 20, 2015 9:27 AM  

First of all, since the State regulates doctors and protects them from competition, they can do anything they want with regards to how they go about their business.

This is wishful thinking. Fact of the matter is the Nine Acolytes on High have decided:

1) The first amendment has been incorporated by the 14th and applies to the states and would thus limit the states ability no matter what its doing.

2) Doctors are engaged in interstate commerce, so the states ability to regulate them is also limited to what would be consistent with FedGov's wishes.

Blogger Nate December 20, 2015 9:28 AM  

Also...if your family medicine doctor asks you if you own any guns you simply leave and never go back to him.

And its even more important to take a hardline with a pediatrician. Because they will find an excuse to get your kid alone and go at through them.

Anonymous Anonymous December 20, 2015 9:35 AM  

As a FL doc, most of these comments are completely clueless. MDs tend as a group to be far to the right, and most I know are very pro 2A.
Peds tend to be highly cucked, the specialty selects for them.

Anonymous Nxx December 20, 2015 9:43 AM  

This is why lawyers tend to be intrinsically flawed defenders of freedom

I think it's because 99% of lawyers have an architectural (as opposed to organic) understanding of society. They believe that if you want society to be X, you just design new laws to mandate X and it's done.

How anyone can still hold the architectural view in the teeth of the post colonial experience in Africa and elsewhere is beyond me, yet there you have it.

Freedom flows organically from the people against and in defiance of legislators; it is therefore fundamentally incomprehensible to the 99% of lawyers who cleave to the architectural view.

Blogger Dexter December 20, 2015 9:51 AM  

Peds tend to be highly cucked, the specialty selects for them.

Moreover, women are overrepresented...

Anonymous WillBest December 20, 2015 9:59 AM  

@19 That will be changing. Most doctors are small business owners. Obamacare and other healthcare laws are turning more and more of them into salaried employees of hospitals.

Solid on the Peds doctors. It has to be akin to education majors where the dumbest and most incompetent gravitate to the profession, and that suits the overlords just fine because they can push their propaganda the easiest that way.

The issue that smart people have is understanding how much trust people on the left side of the curve put into professionals outside of areas they have zero expertise. They really don't think beyond "I have problem X, I want it solved" and anything professional does must be helping in solving problem X.

OpenID bc64a9f8-765e-11e3-8683-000bcdcb2996 December 20, 2015 10:00 AM  

So let's revisit Roe v. Wade, privacy in ones person and papers, confidentiality between a MD. and patient, and of course....FIRST, Do no harm...

A firearm locked in a safe is NO business of a MD?
Neither is a full auto (actual) assault weapon, with a "high capacity clip", with bayonet, and a silencer, hanging over the mantle, by a felon!
CaptDMO

Anonymous That Would Be Telling December 20, 2015 10:17 AM  

@22: WillBest

@19 That will be changing. Most doctors are small business owners. Obamacare and other healthcare laws are turning more and more of them into salaried employees of hospitals.

The one I know best who's now working for The Man is none too pleased, and will remain on the right for the foreseeable future (it is a big issue, all the local doctors I know but my current PCP are no longer independent). I see a bigger danger from the new doctors who will never known that kind of life.

Blogger Were-Puppy December 20, 2015 10:20 AM  

@10 VD

The statistical fact is that blacks are far more dangerous to people, including other blacks, than guns are, and yet doctors don't ask about one's contacts with black individuals or recommend staying away from them.
---

Wasn't pointing this out what got Derbyshire purged from NR?

Blogger Were-Puppy December 20, 2015 10:21 AM  

@11 John Diaz

Do you own any firearms

---

I thought this was the part where we say "I used to have a lot of guns but lost them in a canoe accident"

Blogger Were-Puppy December 20, 2015 10:23 AM  

@12 Al Sharpton

No, because Ben Carson. And Obama. And poor nutrition. And school funding. And driving while black. And....
---

Rev, you've done a good job helping Carson quit hitting moms in the head with hammers, stabbing dudes in the gut, and smashing padlocks into others faces.

You're work is still cut out for you with Obamis and the Wookie, best of luck. MAN HANDS! Muahahahahahaaa

Blogger Cataline Sergius December 20, 2015 10:24 AM  

@19

Anon comments aren't permitted here. The posts get deleted.

Nothing personal in that it's just a matter of keeping things organized and comprehensible...Reasonably comprehensible.

Just pick something. Doc Florida is available

Blogger VD December 20, 2015 10:24 AM  

Wasn't pointing this out what got Derbyshire purged from NR?

Yes, but he wasn't a medical doctor, so he had no societal duty to do so.

Blogger Were-Puppy December 20, 2015 10:32 AM  

@16 Steve, the Dark Ninja of Mockery

Here in God's own country, England, our prostate-fondlers
---

I wonder if you guys in jolly olde England get this same attitude when the Doc snaps on that glove?


Blogger haus frau December 20, 2015 10:33 AM  

@19 Peds tend to be highly cucked, the specialty selects for them

This is why I went through 3 peds with my first born before settling on a general practitioner for the whole family. The rigid, sanctimonious attitude on vaccination and "well-baby" visits is completely missing from the family practice doctor.
Regarding your first statement though, it's not the majority of right wing doctors anyone needs to worry about. It's the few on a mission who will persue these questions in detail and re-interpret any answers in the worst light. This law is meant for those doctors and it only takes one of those doctors to call cps with a bs story and get a couple ensnared for years in cps investigations and their children damaged in foster care.

Blogger Were-Puppy December 20, 2015 10:41 AM  

I thought if you liked your doctor, you could keep your doctor. *starts singing duck song again*

Blogger haus frau December 20, 2015 10:42 AM  

Beware the now standard periodic health questionnaires as well. Our doctor is required to pass them out to patients once a year. He knows we won't return them and his attitude toward the questions is similar to ours. That said, I feel for the people who don't have the sense to throw it out.
"Have you experienced depression in the last year?"
"Have you thought of harming yourself?"
"Do you often experience anger?"
lots of questions along those lines. I don't think there were any gun questions, but if you have small children and the doctor decides based on your answers, that you need some "help" then you may have a date with CPS coming or maybe the police if he reports you as a suicide risk and then good luck getting either the kids or the guns back.

Anonymous KoranBurningFaggot December 20, 2015 10:44 AM  

Trauma docs, (ER and Surgeons) in fact, tend to be the worst, because of sample bias- when all you see are accidental shootings and dindu

A lot of them know the deal they just can't say it. I have heard a lot of OR locker-room talk in different hospitals about how blacks are the reason for divorce/alimony/support gouging laws, but it probably not the same in the women's locker room.

British Medical Association...authority on everything from supermarket beer promotions to what the tax rate on sugar should be

But moslem nurses don't have to wash their hands in the UK or interrupt their prayer break to keep someone from dying.

Ron If a doctor sees that a man is engaged in very dangerous sexual practices.. stop going to gay bathhouses

If the doctor saw that he would have to be at the gay bathhouse himself.

Blogger Dave December 20, 2015 10:49 AM  

If we were to ever get a gun

The more immediate concern seemingly is the number of "regular VP readers" that think guns are evil, don't own any guns, or recently just decided to purchase their first gun.

Now I understand many people have been conditioned all their life to hate guns but how can regular readers of this blog still cling so tightly to that belief?

Blogger Tallawampus December 20, 2015 10:54 AM  

The American Academy of Pediatrics is a gun grabbing, Obamacare cheerleading den of SJWs – and I’m saying that as a practicing pediatrician. No, I do not currently belong to the AAP.

I’m in a western state – cowboy west, not west coast - and if anyone in my group asks about guns it’s in reference to hunting or just in general conversation about shooting. We also allow concealed and open carry in our clinic. I haven’t actually seen anyone open carry, but I wouldn’t kick them out if they did.
Remember that if you live in a conservative area, you are far more likely to have conservative professionals around you.

You’ll run into a lot more gun grabbing docs in New Jersey then where I live.

When you see a doc ask them about guns first, if they won’t tell you if they have guns or if they don’t like guns, stop seeing them. Support of the 2A is a good test of how freedom loving someone is.

@22 I won’t take that personally. I went into pediatrics because I really don’t like dealing with old people. Two month old babies pooping in diapers are a lot more tolerable than 90 year olds pooping in diapers. And old people smell funny.

Anonymous Slowpoke December 20, 2015 10:58 AM  

Found a nice questionair online for just this issue. It allows you to go through the firearms training, firearms safety training, and statistical study of firearms use your doctor has done(or really hasnt) and then you get to ask the question is the doctor (mal)practicing in an area where theyre not qualified.

It really opens their eyes to the issue when done in a serious matter like they would actually treat medical advice. My peds doctor got their whole practice to stop asking this because they didnt want to actually do firearms training.

Blogger pyrrhus December 20, 2015 10:59 AM  

@36 Yep and yep.....

Blogger James Dixon December 20, 2015 11:05 AM  

> And whenever there is a conflict between gun rights and speech rights, gun rights much always come first

I assume much is supposed to be must?

> No gun rights = no free speech.

No guns rights = no freedom. Free men can (and must be allowed to) arm themselves as they see fit.

> I know some docs who have walk-in closets full of guns...

Our local doctor went hunting in NA last year.

Blogger James Dixon December 20, 2015 11:07 AM  

Hmm. Need caffeine. NA was supposed to be NZ.

Blogger Dave December 20, 2015 11:08 AM  

The American Academy of Pediatrics is a gun grabbing, Obamacare cheerleading den of SJWs

What Academy is not like that? Entryism long ago marched through these Academies.

Blogger dc.sunsets December 20, 2015 11:17 AM  

Anyone who asks you about your gun ownership automatically should be told nothing.

Blogger dc.sunsets December 20, 2015 11:22 AM  

@ Nate, extremely well said.

Lots of people go into medicine because they love the Power; the doc walks into the room & everyone turns to her, waiting to be told what to do.

It's nauseating, & it inculcates a sick, arrogant paternalism.

Blogger OneWingedShark December 20, 2015 11:34 AM  

@17 "This is wishful thinking. Fact of the matter is the Nine Acolytes on High have decided:

1) The first amendment has been incorporated by the 14th and applies to the states and would thus limit the states ability no matter what its doing.
"

If it is incorporated, then why would it have any effect? It specifically and particularly prohibits Congress from enacting certain laws; therefore if incorporation [against the states] is held to mean anything other than what it actually says than 'incorporation' is not merely applying the amendment to the states, but altering the amendment and then applying it.

"2) Doctors are engaged in interstate commerce, so the states ability to regulate them is also limited to what would be consistent with FedGov's wishes."

According to the the thinking of the USSC, even non-commerce is able to be regulated by the commerce clause. It's essentially the unlimitting of government.

Blogger tz December 20, 2015 11:44 AM  

The more critical thing is children - Where does daddy keep his gun...? Call CPS!

Blogger The Other Robot December 20, 2015 12:00 PM  

A Canadian blogger sees the legal environment getting worse:

This will be my last column for 2015, and I wish all of you a very Merry Christmas! Although I no longer go to church, I still consider Christmas to be a very important time of year when we can spend more time with our loved ones and enjoy the traditions of this mid-winter celebration.

I don't know whether I will resume my column in the new year. The legal environment in Canada has changed over the past few months, especially with the adoption of Bill 59. If need be, I will concentrate on writing papers for academic journals.

Blogger REV MAD December 20, 2015 12:05 PM  

Speaking of free speech, from a "former" member of the ACLU

“The thing is, we have to really reach out to those who might consider voting for Trump and say, ‘This is Goebbels. This is the final solution. If you are voting for him I will have to shoot you before Election Day.’ They’re not going to listen to reason, so when justice is gone, there’s always force…”


Wirbel did not respond to a request for comment. He is from Colorado Springs and police there say his post is covered by free speech and they do not intend to investigate.

Blogger luagha December 20, 2015 12:07 PM  

I was under the impression that the 'firearms question' entered through Obamacare regulations for computerizing records. Ie, the infiltrators got the question put on the webform so it has to be answered or the doctor gets hassled.

Blogger The Other Robot December 20, 2015 12:08 PM  

Someone in Colorado Springs could tweet that they will have to shoot people who make threatening statements towards Trump.

The reaction would be interesting ...

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 December 20, 2015 12:11 PM  

Haven't been asked the gun question by my kid's doctors yet. But they won't stop with the vaccine pushing. One office told us they would stop treating my son if he wasn't up to date. So we left them.

The new one wanted to get my Preemie son his two months shots, never-mind he shouldn't have been born by then.

Blogger WarKicker December 20, 2015 12:11 PM  

"Trauma docs, (ER and Surgeons) in fact, tend to be the worst, because of sample bias- when all you see are accidental shootings and"

This is not the case at all where I practice. All the surgeons I share trauma call with collectively have enough guns to arm a small militia. As Tallawampus and KBF indicated, it could be a function of living in a conservative area and all the docs here know "what the deal is". If I'm taking a gunshot survivor to surgery, my interest in asking what piece and ammo were used is that it occasionally helps anticipate the extent of the collateral damage and nothing more.

Blogger The Other Robot December 20, 2015 12:12 PM  

Still, it was nice of the ACLU to actually articulate their anti-American sympathies.

Anonymous WillBest December 20, 2015 12:32 PM  

Now I understand many people have been conditioned all their life to hate guns but how can regular readers of this blog still cling so tightly to that belief?

Guns are tools. Whether you own a tool depends on your individual needs.

For example, about 15 years ago I lived in a high rise in Chicago requiring you to go through the door man and cameras(extremely low chance of B&E). At the time Chicago banned conceal carry, and the buildings I frequented (the court house, my office building) required you to go through metal detectors. This was also back in a period of good economic growth, technology hadn't given the government the modern day surveillance state, and the Muslims hadn't given them the justification to use it. I had as much use for a gun as I did a band saw.

These days I have both.

---

@36 Really smart people go into teaching too for a number of legitimate reasons, but the adage "those that can't, teach" is there for a reason.

---

@44 I am sure nobody has tired your argument before the nine. Good luck in your endeavor. While you are in front of them you could ask them about their wholly inconsistent approach to the incorporation doctrine generally.

Blogger Gerry Tork December 20, 2015 12:43 PM  

Conant v. Walters at the federal level gave doctors free reign to 'recommend' medical cannabis over the (non-medical) DEA's objections. Wonder how this one will play out.

Blogger TheRedSkull December 20, 2015 12:45 PM  

Doctors as stasi is a terrible idea. All that human capital invested in one pencil neck. No time to take basic defensive precautions. Widely known schedule.

Blogger Escoffier December 20, 2015 12:46 PM  

#4; For God's sake get armed!

Blogger bob k. mando December 20, 2015 12:54 PM  

42. dc.sunsets December 20, 2015 11:17 AM
Anyone who asks you about your gun ownership automatically should be told nothing.



how are we going to find out that you're some pansy pink Glock owner ( like Nate ) if we don't ask you?

Anonymous That Would Be Telling December 20, 2015 1:01 PM  

@54 Gerry Tork:

Conant v. Walters at the federal level gave doctors free reign to 'recommend' medical cannabis over the (non-medical) DEA's objections. Wonder how this one will play out.

Funny thing is, they could already prescribe FDA approved "medical cannabis", one of them even has the brand name Marinol. Here's a two year old page on 10 drugs in various stages, approved to being researched.

Blogger Gerry Tork December 20, 2015 1:09 PM  

@35 Pick either lives-in-Canada or watched-too-much-MacGyver. Also, there are about two dozen firearms within 500 yards, all relatives, one a retired Mountie.

Blogger Gerry Tork December 20, 2015 1:19 PM  

@46 Quebec has language cops that read restaurant menus for compliance. Look up Spaghettigate.

Living in Quebec, as I am fond of saying, redpilled me on SJWs back when the separatists (marxists) took power in 1977, and not only called us anglos Rhodesians but did so openly.

Also, the current premier is a neurosurgeon.

Blogger Gerry Tork December 20, 2015 1:27 PM  

@58 Marinol is synthetic, like Cesamet, and is nothing like whole-herb cannabis. I've known several people on it who said it did nothing. Whole herb cannabis has what us called an entourage effect.

Smoke 'en if you got 'em, but I hate joint grabbers as much as gun grabbers. Pick up your brass and I'll pick up my roaches.

Anonymous Wyrd December 20, 2015 1:29 PM  

#4; For God's sake get armed!

There are two kinds of people in the world, my friend: those with guns and those who dig. You dig.

Blogger JaimeInTexas December 20, 2015 1:33 PM  

We quit taking our kids to a pediatrician when she started asking about guns and wanting to talk to them in private.

Doctors have no reason to ask about guns at home except they are now required, as part of standard AMA procedures, IIRC. So, a law telling doctors to not ask about guns is legit.

Anonymous That Would Be Telling December 20, 2015 1:33 PM  

@60 Gerry Tork:

Our host might find Pastagate interesting, this happened when "an inspector of the Office québécois de la langue française (OQLF) sent a letter of warning to an upscale restaurant, Buonanotte, for using Italian words such as "Pasta", "antipasti", "calamari", etc. on its menu instead of their French equivalents." The restaurant didn't "apologize", and the head of the OQLF was forced to resign in less than a month.

Anonymous D Meister December 20, 2015 1:44 PM  

A little off topic but judges and theologians are the same. Both can find things in the law or their holy books that don't exist by the plain meaning of the words.

Blogger Danby December 20, 2015 1:54 PM  

@35 Dave
Now I understand many people have been conditioned all their life to hate guns but how can regular readers of this blog still cling so tightly to that belief?

It's not so much hating guns as i've never felt the lack of a handgun. I've had rifles forever, and my wife has a pistol, but I've literally never been in a situation in which I felt I needed a gun.
That said, I'm getting my CCL and shopping for a .45 this week. Not sure if it's watching the world get ready to burn, or just feeling old.

Blogger Tom Arrow December 20, 2015 1:59 PM  

Stop pedestalizing doctors and take away their unions and whatever regulation they have. Stop treating them like gods. Then you can let them speak their minds without fearing you have to obey them.

Blogger SciVo December 20, 2015 2:07 PM  

Dave @35: Now I understand many people have been conditioned all their life to hate guns but how can regular readers of this blog still cling so tightly to that belief?

My parents were hippies. I mean literally, back in the day they lived a block away from the famous intersection of Haight & Ashbury. It's a sign of progress for me that I'm even flirting with the idea of getting my first gun, and I think the correct way of looking at the change of demographics here is that people are learning. People who didn't know these things before are learning them, and that's a good thing.

Anonymous Wyrd December 20, 2015 2:21 PM  

That said, I'm getting my CCL and shopping for a .45 this week.

I got my CCL last year and recently bought a Ruger Blackhawk single-shot .357. Not the most practical of handguns, but I still love it. I now feel the need to get some cherry cigars despite quitting smoking six years ago.

Blogger Chris Mallory December 20, 2015 2:37 PM  

@69
Your Blackhawk is "single action", not "single shot". Ruger did produce a single shot based on the Blackhawk but it was called the Hawkeye.

Anonymous Wyrd December 20, 2015 2:44 PM  

Thank you for the correction, Chris.

Blogger Nick S December 20, 2015 3:02 PM  

Looks like the subtext was a little too subtle.

Anonymous Galco? December 20, 2015 3:59 PM  

So hey lets talk best IWB concealed carry holster. Recommendations?

Blogger Danby December 20, 2015 4:12 PM  

Turns out I'm partial to shoulder holsters. Probably because my uncle was an FBI agent, and it's about the most exciting thing in the world when you're 11 and see him carrying the gun he actually shot a kidnapper with.

Anonymous Wyrd December 20, 2015 4:26 PM  

I want a wrist-spring Derringer like James West. Just in case Dr. Loveless comes a-visiting.

Blogger Danby December 20, 2015 4:32 PM  

Michael Dunn was the best actor on that show. I loved him as Loveless.

Anonymous Wyrd December 20, 2015 4:37 PM  

Yep, he and Richard Kiel were the bomb.

Anonymous Bukulu December 20, 2015 4:57 PM  

Dave @ 35,

"If You Were Ever To Get A Gun, My Love"

Anonymous That Would Be Telling December 20, 2015 5:00 PM  

@73 Galco?:

I'm not sure there's any one best design or holster maker, and a friend of mine said that most concealed carriers accumulate a "closet full" of infrequently used or discards until they find ones they like, which turned out to be true for me.

I get the impression that most firms specialize in either IWB or OWB, so for what you need you might want to check out Milt Sparks Holsters, although they're currently quoting 10-16 weeks on delivery, which isn't at all bad assuming they've kept up their quality, which they by and large have since the '70s or earlier.

I like the Summer Special 2 myself, but there are thinner designs if you need that sort of thing. One nice thing about that model is that they sell the very most common versions of it through Brownells, so if you're right handed and carrying a 1911 or Glock check it out.

One other outfit that focuses on OWB models and is reported to do good work, and did so for a dual IWB magazine holster I bought from the proprietor is Horseshoe Leather Products. However, the guy is in the U.K. and therefore can only make holsters using cast aluminium blanks of guns sent to him from outside that benighted country, so the selection is more limited than Milt Sparks.

Expect to pay around a $100 for a good leather holster, and especially for IWB you don't want to economize much. For example, you want a design with a metal band that will keep the holster open when the gun is not in it. High leather on the inside side that'll keep the gun from touching your skin is highly recommended.

Don't economize on a belt; if casual and wide is OK, like for jeans, I really like the Original Instructor Belt with the 5 stitch option, but spring for the titanium buckle. Normal model is heavy steel, and they are very substantial because the whole system is designed to belay you in a pinch. You might also want to check out their Safepacker for when you need to wear something on the outside of your clothes that doesn't scream "gun!".

Blogger Sheila4g December 20, 2015 5:06 PM  

I don't know when I stopped pedestalizing doctors, but it was long ago. I've had fairly good luck finding various doctors who have no problem recognizing I'm a sentient and rational individual and dealing with me accordingly. Those who've had issues have either been fired (I regard using a doctor as much the same as hiring any professional who has skills I lack), or have refused to treat my family because of my "racism." Almost all the White doctors around here (I won't go to all the Indian/Chinese/Iranian/black/Mexican ones) are huge SJWs who volunteer at free clinics for all the illegals but will charge a White American hundreds of dollars for a simple procedure if they don't have the proper brand of insurance. Until my husband's employer finally got a plan a few years ago that we could afford which included dependents(because the CFO's son joined the company and needed such insurance for his family), we had this issue constantly. The doctors wouldn't/couldn't negotiate on a cash payment but would simply repeat "Come to the free clinic." Yes, the clinic where all the Mexicans had newer cars and fancy cell phones when I had yet to acquire my first. One multi-hour wait with a crying infant as the only White among jabbering Mexicans pushed me further toward the militant right than years of reading.

In addition to the gun questions, they also ask quite a few nosy ones about sexual practices. My younger son (very innocent for his years) was rather bewildered by them and it was only my presence that prevented the nurse/assistant from persisting. With my kid's somewhat aspie tendencies, it's difficult to explain to him that while we strongly believe in honesty, there are also numerous things he must not speak about outside of the home, especially to anyone in a societal position of authority. I suppose we've inculcated an us vs. them attitude which would cause the State to seize our son under some pretext if they knew the extent of it, but we've also discussed that with him and he is genuinely fearful of that happening, so that serves better than anything else to help him keep his mouth shut.

Anonymous Bukulu December 20, 2015 5:07 PM  

Danby @ 66,

"I've literally never been in a situation in which I felt I needed a gun."

You've literally been foolish all your life, then. If you're not working in the illegal drug trade or collecting for the Mafia, the great majority of 'being in a situation' where you need gun events happen without any warning whatsoever.

Glad to see you're rethinking this.

Anonymous Wyrd December 20, 2015 5:12 PM  

@Sheila4g,

"That's none of your goddamned business" is the only answer those apparatchiks deserve from you or your children.

Blogger OneWingedShark December 20, 2015 5:34 PM  

@53 "I am sure nobody has tired your argument before the nine. Good luck in your endeavor."

Thank you; but given crap like their ACA rulings, or Obergefell v. Hodges, or Kelo I think it's fairly safe to say that the USSC doesn't really give a crap.

"While you are in front of them you could ask them about their wholly inconsistent approach to the incorporation doctrine generally."

I think we'd have better results making them "eat their own dog-food" -- by which I mean use their reasoning finding 'indefinite detention' a-ok as a reason to detain them indefinitely, use Kelo's reasoning to seize their private properties, etc.

Also, I anticipate great fun citing Roe v. Wade's Constitutional right to privacy [of medical-records/doctor] as the reason for tossing ObamaCare -- make them choose between their beloved infanticide and socialized medicine.

Blogger Steve, the Dark Ninja of Mockery December 20, 2015 5:37 PM  

KBF - it may not surprise you that - despite being a small minority of UK doctors - fans of the well-known 7th century rapist are greatly overrepresented among doctors struck off by the General Medical Council.

In fact, approximately 3 out of 4 doctors banned from practice every year in the UK trained abroad - if you do a quick Google search on "GMC struck off" it's hard to find an Englishman in the first few pages of results.

Generally speaking, immigrant doctors kill the patients British doctors won't kill.*

* Though Shipman still holds the all-time high score.

Were-Puppy - The bastard didn't even buy me dinner first.

It was much better when I had a testicular cancer scare, they got a naughty little blonde Scottish nurse to check out my goods.

Blogger Harold December 20, 2015 6:09 PM  

Speaking of guns and shooting back- there were initial reports that in Paris armed civilians did shoot back at the terrorists. Unlawfully armed drug dealers from Columbia. But I've never seen a follow up. The last reports I can find are the initial ones I read. And Snopes hasn't debunked it. Anyone ever see a follow up as to whether it really happened?

Anonymous 1876 Democrat December 20, 2015 6:15 PM  

attempt to turn the medical community into a white-coated Stasi

They've benefited so much from the Rockefeller Allopathic Med Model and Globalist BigPharma, though, that they owe.
They owe.
And add their natural ego pride that gives their (lying) medical model wings, and there ya go... it's for your own good, boy.
Not to mention the number of foreign born doctors that could give 2 sh*ts about the Magna Carta, and everything that followed - they just need to get paid.
That is the price of immigration/migration and disbanding the notion of kin and the ethnostate.

Anonymous Wyrd December 20, 2015 6:44 PM  



If you were a wrist-spring derringer, my Loveless.

Blogger Nate December 20, 2015 6:59 PM  

"As a FL doc, most of these comments are completely clueless. MDs tend as a group to be far to the right, and most I know are very pro 2A.
Peds tend to be highly cucked, the specialty selects for them. "

My experience as well. I've shot Class IIIs with ER docs.

Anonymous bloody barbarian December 20, 2015 7:11 PM  

@73 (and @79)
I like the Summer Special 2 myself

+1 on Milt's SS2. That's the carry holster for my Colt now after going through two or three other styles/kinds first (including a kydex one). Got it at Brownells, too, so no wait.

Anonymous Mr. Rational December 20, 2015 8:04 PM  

@79 Somebody get that guy access to a 3-D printer so that all he needs is a CAD file to make a blank.

@80 Those clinics look like they'd be tempting for those seeking target-rich environments.

Anonymous That Would Be Telling December 20, 2015 8:38 PM  

@90 Mr. Rational:

@79 Somebody get that guy access to a 3-D printer so that all he needs is a CAD file to make a blank.

He presses the leather into the aluminum models with tremendous force; I'm pretty sure his current approach is the cheapest and easiest method. Note also the creation of the CAD files would not be trivial for a lot of guns, and sufficiently bad mistakes would result in holsters that don't fit when they're tested with the real thing.

Anonymous BigGaySteve December 20, 2015 8:44 PM  

how are we going to find out that you're some pansy pink Glock owner ( like Nate ) if we don't ask you?

NAPGAPLT Not All Pansy's Glocks Are Pink Like That

thing is, they could already prescribe FDA approved "medical cannabis", one of them even has the brand name Marinol.

I will say that THC in pill form might not be the best delivery route for vomiting. Twice I had been nauseous & I had just gotten a Phenergan shot at work and just kept on working.

Stop pedestalizing doctors and take away their unions and whatever regulation they have. Stop treating them like gods.=

They seem like gods next to illegal alien patients that come in to the ER for anchor babies' diaper rash.

"If You Were Ever To Get A Gun, My Love"

If you have less guns than BigGaySteve has buried in a cache my love.

We quit taking our kids to a pediatrician when she started asking about guns and wanting to talk to them in private

Don't leave your kids alone with healthcare workers especially gay Hispanic nurses.

I've literally never been in a situation in which I felt I needed a gun.

In my early twentys I got jumped by 5 groids after I used an ATM when I wasn't smart enough to look around for blacks beforehand, I kept my wallet & only had a black eye with them crying to the cops I fought dirty, luckily the banks security camera caught it. Now I probably wouldn't do as well against 5 blacks that started with a sucker punch, as I gave up skiing after a leg injury.

Almost all the White doctors around here (I won't go to all the Indian/Chinese/Iranian/black/Mexican ones) are huge SJWs who volunteer at free clinics for all the illegals but will charge a White American hundreds of dollars for a simple procedure if they don't have the proper brand of insurance

I would hate when a hospital would go import some 3rd world kid with some problem white people can fix while putting the family up at the hospitals expense, then see working whites have financial problems from care that illegal alien drunk drivers don't.

Blogger Were-Puppy December 20, 2015 8:46 PM  

@85 Harold

Speaking of guns and shooting back- there were initial reports that in Paris armed civilians did shoot back at the terrorists. Unlawfully armed drug dealers from Columbia. But I've never seen a follow up. The last reports I can find are the initial ones I read. And Snopes hasn't debunked it. Anyone ever see a follow up as to whether it really happened?
---

I would think if those Columbian guys were involved they would have taken down those terrorists a lot quicker. Unless they weren't in the Theater and trapped with them.

Blogger Nate December 20, 2015 9:31 PM  

"I've literally never been in a situation in which I felt I needed a gun.
"

Then you're oblivious.

Blogger CM December 20, 2015 11:13 PM  

The more immediate concern seemingly is the number of "regular VP readers" that think guns are evil, don't own any guns, or recently just decided to purchase their first gun.

I'm not afraid of guns. I have no superstition about them. However, I have never owned one.

My reasons are, quite frankly, none of your business.

If I were to get one, i would seek classes for young children. In fact, I may want to do that regardless and the sooner the better.

Anonymous Dave December 21, 2015 12:43 AM  

@BGS don't suppose you have the video from the banks security camera? I know the Ilk would appreciate watching how you "defended" yourself. You could pixelate your face so no would recognize you.

Anonymous Eric the Red December 21, 2015 1:07 AM  

This issue may be an indirect response to unintended consequences from other leftist policies: doctor's offices can report you to the nearest child social services bureau and make your life a living hell. This happened to friends of mine in North Carolina, and it all stemmed from a mistake that wasn't even theirs to begin with, specifically the loss of lab tests by the testing agency, requiring retesting of their son. If some leftist prick of a doctor (or even someone on his staff) gets it into their addled brain that you are not providing a "safe environment" for your child or are "inflicting harm", they can report you. From that moment onward you are guilty until proven innocent, which also means they will find some way to make you pay, regardless of your culpability.

Anonymous Olof December 21, 2015 1:12 AM  

I'm wondering how a doc disparaging guns has in any way violated the patient's 2nd amendment right. However, it's very clear how the law violates the Doc's 1st Amendment right. Remember only the govt can violate your 2nd Amendment rights.

The only way this case should have been decided is by the court snorting with laughter and overturning the law as unconstitutional.

Blogger Dave December 21, 2015 1:48 AM  

@Olof maybe you didn't read the article but the salient point as Vox posted is: "as the article shows, what is actually being prohibited is doctors being used as a line of attack against gun rights."

If gun ownership can be turned into a mental health issue then doctors will be at the frontline. Who will be the judges and what criteria will be used to evaluate somebody's mental health. From there it's a short leap to denying medical coverage. It's not at all difficult to compare it to no fly lists which are full of mistakes and once on the list almost impossible to be removed from.

You disagree but it is a preemptive move to keep the medical field out of it.

Anonymous WillBest December 21, 2015 2:58 AM  

The only way this case should have been decided is by the court snorting with laughter and overturning the law as unconstitutional.

The first amendment plainly doesn't apply to the states per the written text of the Constitution. Its just one of those invented by the Supreme Court in the 1920s.

Anyway. the whole mental health issue and guns might seem nuts to an otherwise rational person who might think compromising sensible. Its not. The grabbers will just be back tomorrow with another sensible proposal tomorrow until finally it seems sensible to allow the army to go door to door. That is why "Fuck off" is the only legitimate response.

Blogger Akulkis December 21, 2015 8:17 AM  

I loved it when I found out that Sen. Ted Kennedy was on the no-fly list. LOL.

Anonymous Olof December 21, 2015 10:45 AM  

Willi
Shut up. You don't know what you are talking about and the incorporation doctrine had nothing to do with this decision. The fact is that a doctor spewing anti gun rhetoric does nothing to curtail anyone's second amend menu rights. Plus, if the lawmakers were worried about gun ownership impacting a doctor's diagnosis they could have written a bill denying such a thing.

You are an idiot.

Blogger Danby December 21, 2015 12:34 PM  

@Olof,
You ignorant slut. The question is not the doctor "spewing anti-gun rhetoric." The issue is doctors being used by the federal government to get a back door list of gun owners. What need is there for gun registration when they can do a simple
SELECT NAME,ADDRESS from MEDICAL_RECORD where GUN_OWNER = TRUE, That is literally what the Florida law was addressing, not whether the doc talked about guns.
Try to educate yourself, so you'll at least present the appearance of not being an idiot.

Blogger Escoffier December 21, 2015 1:16 PM  

#79 +1 on a high quality belt.

Having grown up in the People's republic of Chicago I didn't end up getting a gun until well into my forties. And had no idea that one of the more important aspects of waist carry would be a good belt? I spent about two weeks hoisting my pants up every three seconds before I ended up at a gun show and got myself a quarter inch thick slab of leather for $60.

Worth every penny.

Also, can't go wrong with Galco holsters. Have had two and both were excellent.

Anonymous Olof December 21, 2015 3:17 PM  

Danby,
Show me where in Florida law it doe or has said a patient is required to answer any questions at all from a doctor.

Furthermore, if that were the reason for the law then why not simply write a law that restricts doctors from gathering or reporting any info concerning guns to any public or private entity.

Don't call me ignorant when you are too tiny to even see the ride let alone get on the ride.

Idiot.

Blogger James Dixon December 21, 2015 5:34 PM  

> Try to educate yourself, so you'll at least present the appearance of not being an idiot.

Why would he want to pretend to be something he's not, Danby?

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