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Monday, December 14, 2015

Mailvox: the power of freedom

A reader writes about a recent life-changing experience:
Yesterday, me and my wife took the second step in buying a gun -- attending a four-hour Basic Firearms Safety Course .  The first step is finding out whether your town's police authority will give out gun licenses.  Since [State] is a "shall issue" state, forget about getting a licence in [Big City] or another large city, forget it unless you're well-connected.  The instructor said that this de facto ban was illegal, but what are you going to do?

All 40 seats were full.  This facility hold this class every day.   The instructor said that ever since the Paris attacks, they haven't been able to keep up with the demand and would hold a second class if they had the range time.  The demographics were quite telling.  There was a 50/50 gender mix with six other couples.  There was one 18 year old guy and only one other guy under forty.  The rest of us were middle-aged and middle-class.  And... we were all white.

I wasn't alone in having trouble practicing loading/unloading the full-sized guns.  My hands weren't big enough, and I ended up waving the barrel around too much while trying to release the magazine clip.  Oops.  And my index finger ended up sliding down from alongside the barrel into the the trigger guard.  Double oops.  And I pointed the revolver up in the air when unloading it.  Nope nope nope.  Beginners mistakes; easily identified and fixable with training.

On the range, I got a very good cluster.  The instructor was astonished that I'd never picked up a handgun before, and my last time firing a gun was a 22 for the Boy Scout merit badge.  

I really enjoyed firing.  I lined up the sights, felt an adrenal rush, stopped thinking, slowly squeezed, and watched bullets hit the target.  It was a shock when the gun went 'click' instead of 'pop'.  So here's my problem.  All my life, I've been told guns are evil and as a upper-middle class white guy, I shouldn't use one.  But it was fun, dammit!

Next step is to get a licence.  And more classes, leading up the practical purchase of a pump-action shotgun with an 18-22" barrel that both my wife and I can handle.
The American militia is awakening. I have no doubt it will be ready when the time comes. None at all. Will it be enough? Only time will tell.

And if you haven't armed yourself and your family, what are you waiting for? You can't possibly say that you haven't been warned. Repeatedly.

Labels: ,

148 Comments:

Anonymous Leonidas December 14, 2015 11:38 AM  

Congratulations - you are progressing from subject to citizen.

Anonymous Absalom December 14, 2015 11:40 AM  

"Since [State] is a "shall issue" state, forget about getting a licence in [Big City] or another large city, forget it unless you're well-connected." That should read "May Issue" as that is what's described.

Blogger Lukas Brunnor December 14, 2015 11:41 AM  

Don't forget to build up a supply of ammo while you're at it. A gun is useless without it and it is relatively inexpensive when you consider the cost of not having it. I suggest a minimum of a thousand rounds per caliber of weapon owned. It doesn't need to be high-end stuff...ball ammo will do for your on hand supply, it doesn't need to be the same hollow points you pack around with you normally. I'd also suggest extra magazines, at least two per weapon.

Anonymous Nxx December 14, 2015 11:42 AM  

The link below is almost two years old. It refers o technology that has advanced significantly since then. This technology represents the final word on gun control. It also subtly changes the European equation.

Goodbye Gun Control: The $1,200 Machine For 3D-Printing Guns Has Sold Out In 36 Hours

Blogger James Dixon December 14, 2015 11:43 AM  

> And if you haven't armed yourself and your family, what are you waiting for? You can't possibly say that you haven't been warned. Repeatedly.

Waiting for? We've always had guns. When I first left home after finishing college one of the things I took with me was my grandfather's rifle.

Anonymous Reemus II December 14, 2015 11:44 AM  

Signed on to also indicate the "shall issue" is incorrect. If it's shall issue they must have a "reasonable" reason to deny you.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan December 14, 2015 11:46 AM  

Now what does he think of those people who told him guns are evil? No Cuck

Blogger Were-Puppy December 14, 2015 11:50 AM  

So many people like this on the internet. And I tell them the same thing. If you are afraid of guns, get some buddies, and go to a shooting range a couple of times and you will no longer be afraid.

Not only is is great for self defense, overthrowing totalitarian governments, and hunting, but they are pure FUN !

And I also found a way to get a nephew more interested was to teach him how to break 'em down and clean them. It's fascinating to a kid how that works.

Blogger Nick S December 14, 2015 11:52 AM  

A Mossberg 500 Persuader and a good 1911 and you'll be all set.

Anonymous That Would Be Telling December 14, 2015 11:53 AM  

@4. Nxx: The "Ghost Gunner" will merely finish an 80% complete lower AR-15 receiver if you're not mechanically adept, and one of those is presumptively illegal in the benighted state where these correspondents are from.

Anonymous SugarPi December 14, 2015 11:54 AM  

Excellent! Now the message must be, "don't give up your gun(s)- EVER!!." Your life won't be worth a plugged nickel once you're disarmed.

Anonymous 0007 December 14, 2015 11:54 AM  

Heh, I should invite he and his wife to one our machine gun shoots down here in FL - land of the State-WILL-issue-if-you-pass-the-test. That would really put a smile on their faces.

Anonymous A Visitor December 14, 2015 12:01 PM  

Glad to hear he's coming aboard. Thankfully, save Cali, since I've been old enough to handle anything bigger than a BB gun I've lived in a shall issue state. I remember when I was going to go California, my dad gave me 100 rounds of 7.62x39 and 20 2 3/4 " deer slugs. Given I lived in the meth capital of the high desert, I always felt safe with my SKS and Remington 1187 locked and loaded by my bed side. The county I lived in there was a may issue county. I never bothered going through with getting a CCL as pistol ownership required registering them with the local PD.

Blogger dc.sunsets December 14, 2015 12:03 PM  

While I concur with the view that the NRA is America's largest gun prohibition organization, they can be useful for finding hospitable places to learn about and shoot guns.

http://findnra.nra.org/

Most affiliated clubs are filled with nice people, more than happy to embrace new shooters.

Anonymous VFM 360 December 14, 2015 12:06 PM  

As I talk to more and more friends about getting a CHL I keep hearing that many don't get one because then they will be on a "list". Is this true? Should it negate getting a CHL?

Blogger dc.sunsets December 14, 2015 12:09 PM  

Is this true? Should it negate getting a CHL?

And they think they're NOT on a list already? Or that being on a list with a million or three others is going to matter?

Get the CCL/CHL/Etc. No one is invisible any more, so it's better to be legal if it's possible. Just my opinion.

Anonymous Geretrudis December 14, 2015 12:11 PM  

I live in Oregon, which is a "shall carry" state. However, Lane County, the liberal bastion I live in is doing it's level damned best not to pass out new CCW permits. Feet dragging, paperwork delays, appointments months out, illegal requests for references from people that have lived in Lane County that are in "good standing", whatever that is.
Multnomah (Portland) and Lane counties are big holdouts in the process, and that's where the bulk of the population lives.

I lived in a different county in OR before, and it took days to get a permit, after fingerprinting and approved gun safety class.

Blogger RobertT December 14, 2015 12:13 PM  

Same story here. Crowds and lines everywhere. All ages. Even Millennials. Extra staff to do background checks. But so far no shortages of either guns or ammo.

Anonymous That Would Be Telling December 14, 2015 12:13 PM  

15: VFM 360: Getting a concealed carry license will certainly put you on a "list", that's part of the purpose of them, for good or ill. But your friends will have plenty of company, more than 10 million total in the country in 42 states, 7 of which don't even require a license, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Kansas, Maine, Vermont and Wyoming (residents only for Wyoming).

Getting on a "list" seems to me to be a small price to pay to be able to defend myself and my family.

Blogger dc.sunsets December 14, 2015 12:15 PM  

It is interesting to see larger numbers of people realizing what was obvious all along.

Jeff Snyder's 1993 column "Nation of Cowards" is timeless.
http://rkba.org/comment/cowards.html

Imagine what is going to happen in N. Europe as a million mostly young adult male invaders decide to strong-arm their way into homes seeking shelter & females, and few people are armed (or have the cultural conditioning) to repel them.

In the USA they'd be mowed down like grass.

Blogger KCFleming December 14, 2015 12:19 PM  

Purchased first weapon five years ago. This year getting concealed carry. Thanks, Obama !

Blogger Happy Housewife December 14, 2015 12:20 PM  

The husband and I plan on expanding our arsenal quite a bit in the next year. It's just hard to get to the range when you have little ones and no family close by.


Any recommendations for a 380?

Blogger dc.sunsets December 14, 2015 12:20 PM  

Even in 1993 it appears the cucks were an obstacle to expanding Civilized Carry:

In addition to being enamored of the power of words, our conservative elite shares with liberals the notion that an armed society is just not civilized or progressive, that massive gun ownership is a blot on our civilization.

Blogger Conan the Cimmerian December 14, 2015 12:22 PM  

And if you haven't armed yourself and your family, what are you waiting for? You can't possibly say that you haven't been warned. Repeatedly.

And importantly, more and more ammo.

"Is X amount of rounds enough?" Answer: No. MOAR!

OpenID rufusdog December 14, 2015 12:23 PM  

Unless you practice regularly enough to become solidly good with your weapon all you have bought yourself is a talisman. Enough training to make sure your fundamentals are good, regular practice, IDPA after you’ve advanced some. IDPA will give you a better understanding of where you are at under pressure.

Don’t get lost focusing on buying stuff. Your focus should be on practice and training. You don’t need a safe full of weapons to defend yourself, you just need to be good with the few you have.

I’d buy a rifle before I bought a shotgun…just say’n.

Blogger Conan the Cimmerian December 14, 2015 12:25 PM  

@15 As I talk to more and more friends about getting a CHL I keep hearing that many don't get one because then they will be on a "list". Is this true? Should it negate getting a CHL?

They could easily have you on a list already from just web searches. They are not supposed to keep purchase records, but? They could just get records of sales from all of the sporting goods stores in the country and start there. They would probably have a list with most gun owners with that alone.

Get a CHL and be legal. You are already on this list.

OR

Go outlaw and carry anyway, but you will get arrested if you get found out.

Blogger Conan the Cimmerian December 14, 2015 12:27 PM  

@25 Don’t get lost focusing on buying stuff. Your focus should be on practice and training. You don’t need a safe full of weapons to defend yourself, you just need to be good with the few you have.

And MOAR ammo. More is more than more but not better than even more or even more than that more.

Anonymous That Would Be Telling December 14, 2015 12:28 PM  

Unless you practice regularly enough to become solidly good with your weapon all you have bought yourself is a talisman.

You would think so, but if you read enough accounts of US citizen self-defense you'll be amazed at how many of us responsibly and competently use our guns with little or no training.

OpenID rufusdog December 14, 2015 12:29 PM  

“Any recommendations for a 380?”

Glock, SW, lots of choices. Glock 42 to be specific.

Two things.

I would think about stepping up to 9mm.

If you are going to purse carry keep the chamber empty (or better yet carry it on your body).

Blogger dc.sunsets December 14, 2015 12:30 PM  

I’d buy a rifle before I bought a shotgun…just say’n.

Ditto. Shotgun's dual purpose but if hunting isn't on the menu an AR is about as easy to use, highly effective with good ammo and typically starts out with 20-30 rounds before a reload. Prices for bargain AR's are now astonishingly low, possibly sub-$500.00

Blogger Conan the Cimmerian December 14, 2015 12:31 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Lukas Brunnor December 14, 2015 12:31 PM  

@Happy Housewife

Check out the Sig Sauer P238 if you are looking for a .380. Very nice little gun that is very concealable. Even works great in an ankle holster.

Blogger Conan the Cimmerian December 14, 2015 12:33 PM  

@22
@22 Any recommendations for a 380?

Mrs. the Cimmerian loves her three (3) Walther PK380's.

Another good/economy .380 is the Bersa Thunder. It is a Walther PPK/S clone.

Anonymous Anonymous December 14, 2015 12:34 PM  

"So many people like this on the internet. And I tell them the same thing. If you are afraid of guns, get some buddies, and go to a shooting range a couple of times and you will no longer be afraid."

Actually, I disagree with this. I am retired military, and I was always, to a limited degree, 'afraid' of guns. I don't mean afraid to hold them, or shoot them, or handle them. But afraid of forgetting, afraid of mishandling, etc. This kept me safe.

I'm not sure if 'afraid' is the right word: perhaps I always maintained a healthy respect for them. I am similarly cautious (afraid?) when I go scuba diving, or when I use power tools (table saws viscerally scare the hell out of me). Getting too comfortable with any of them is tantamount to getting lazy (getting complacent), and that is when mistakes happen.

anonymousse

Blogger dc.sunsets December 14, 2015 12:35 PM  

I would think about stepping up to 9mm
I concur. Unless you're after a micro-380 like the Kahr CW380, the small 9's aren't much larger/heavier and generally have better histories of reliability. 380 reliability can be spotty with every brand (I had a German PPK 380 that was 100%, but it was way heavier than any modern subcompact 9mm.)

Someone was selling new M&P Shields (without the safety) on-line for $319 last week, as a testament to how good prices are now. Local shops will often price-match.

Blogger Conan the Cimmerian December 14, 2015 12:36 PM  

@29 Glock .....

I would think about stepping up to 9mm.


Is that a sorcery 101 summon Nate incantation?


Blogger OneWingedShark December 14, 2015 12:37 PM  

@34 "I'm not sure if 'afraid' is the right word[...]Getting too comfortable with any of them is tantamount to getting lazy (getting complacent), and that is when mistakes happen."

Perhaps mindful and/or conscientious?

Blogger Chris Mallory December 14, 2015 12:38 PM  

@22 "Any recommendations for a 380?"

Smith & Wesson Bodyguard w/ built in laser.

I have owned several LCPs, a couple of LCRs, a Bersa Thunder and a Colt Mustang, the Bodyguard is what I still own and it stays in my pocket, even when carrying an Officer's model 1911.
With the small sights on a pocket pistol, the laser is helpful. Especially at pocket pistol ranges.

@18 "But so far no shortages of either guns or ammo."
The tribe members who run The Truth about Guns seem to be trying to gin up another buying hysteria. They have been reporting for a few days now that the distribution pipelines are now empty after the buying craze set off by Paris and San Bern.
I have noticed prices for black rifles slowly creeping back up with online prices for major brand, lower priced rifles adding $50-100 dollars in the past week. Also the local trading/sales website that the LGS and private sellers use to advertise has shown an increase in prices since the first of the month. The biggest local gun store in my area still had 100 or more ARs on the shelf last week.

Blogger Salt December 14, 2015 12:40 PM  

They could easily have you on a list already from just web searches.

FBI Admits All Registered Motorcycle Owners Are On Classified Gang List

Heh!

Blogger Were-Puppy December 14, 2015 12:42 PM  

@27 Conan the Cimmerian

And MOAR ammo. More is more than more but not better than even more or even more than that more.
---

I want to be able to stand on piles of ammo as if I was Conan the Cimmerian on a pile of dead Stygians.

I wan't to be able to swim in an ammo filled swimming pool as if I were Scrooge McDuck swimming in money.

Anonymous Napoleon 12pdr December 14, 2015 12:42 PM  

"...and as a upper-middle class white guy, I shouldn't use one."

Hmph. A gentleman should be skilled with arms. If anything, more skilled than average. It's part of the job.

Anonymous YIH December 14, 2015 12:43 PM  

OT: Remember Ronda Rousey who recently got her ass kicked in UFC? Boy did she pork up quick!
Looks like ''Next up: Buffet table''

OpenID rufusdog December 14, 2015 12:43 PM  

“responsibly and competently use our guns with little or no training.”

Lucky doesn’t equal good. You are kidding yourself if you think you can defend yourself with “little or no training”. I’ve seen too many noob train wrecks to believe otherwise. Now IDPA isn’t a must, but regularly practicing your draw from your means of concealment while getting fast hits is. IDPA just adds pressure. I have seen new guys to IDPA do very well the first time out, but you could tell they had been doing some serious practice/training and were comfortable with their weapon and clearing concealment.

All I am trying to get across is buying a gun, taking one class, and putting the damn thing in your glove box or safe isn’t protection. Its better than nothing...but just.

Blogger Dave December 14, 2015 12:43 PM  

Kudos to the reader and his wife for following through with a firearm safety course and getting onto the range.

The gun control propaganda has succeeded in vilifying guns for a large segment of the population. However, more and more individuals are realizing they can't rely on the gov't as they once thought. In fact the government's priorities are less and less aligned with that of most private citizens which is protection of their lives and property.

The pro-gun crowd has to work harder to educate people that guns are just tools; no more deadly when used properly than an automobile or a hammer.

Blogger James Dixon December 14, 2015 12:48 PM  

> I’d buy a rifle before I bought a shotgun…just say’n.

We've had this discussion before. For home defense, a shotgun is the best choice. For anything else it may not be.

> Any recommendations for a 380?

As discussed in an earlier thread, I'm personally partial to Ruger. But YMMV.

Anonymous Victor F. Michaelson December 14, 2015 12:48 PM  

Getting on a "list" seems to me to be a small price to pay to be able to defend myself and my family.
Being on a list with over 100 million other people should not make one feel vulnerable. Think of it as hiding in a crowd, a well armed crowd.

Blogger White Knight Leo #0368 December 14, 2015 12:49 PM  

@28

Probably because so many acts of self-defense happen at such close range that your actual competency doesn't matter much.

Max Brooks described using a handgun against a zombie this way: "Putting the muzzle to a zombie's temple and pulling the trigger takes no skill and ensures a positive kill."

Anonymous elmer t. jones December 14, 2015 12:50 PM  

I am taking a CC class this Saturday with my son. Have been to the range a couple times recently to figure out the finer points of pistol shooting. Seems a lot like golf in the need to manage several muscle groups to get accurate shots. For now am using a Bersa Thunder 380 after much consideration of the snubby alternative. The Bersa jammed about 6 times over the first few hundred rounds of cheap ammo. After cleaning and lube the second batch only had a couple of jams, same ammo. Otherwise is an appealing gun.

Blogger VFM293 December 14, 2015 12:50 PM  

Been looking for an excuse to post a link to this.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=76aM3t7tqmE

Anonymous Napoleon 12pdr December 14, 2015 12:51 PM  

While I'm at it, I'll toss in some advice.

Practice. Weekly is a good schedule. Number of rounds does not count nearly as much as frequency of practice...and that counts for less than correctness of practice.

Work on delivering one perfect shot. Most people think about shot #2 before releasing shot #1, and it shows.

Work slow fire first. When you can put 5 rounds into a 20cm/8 inch circle at 25 yards or meters, you're starting to get proficient. Do it one-handed, and you're reasonably proficient. (Then look up what a free pistol shooter can do and humble yourself).

Blogger White Knight Leo #0368 December 14, 2015 12:51 PM  

@40

Given how pointy rifle cartridges often are, that sounds painful.

Blogger Vox IV December 14, 2015 12:52 PM  

@22 Happy Housewife
Any recommendations for a 380?
My wife absolutely loves her Bersa Thunder 380. She has the Argentine military version with soft grips and better sights.

Blogger White Knight Leo #0368 December 14, 2015 12:52 PM  

@50

Under what theory of self defense should you be expecting to engage a target at 25 yards with a CC handgun? Unless you live in an OC state and can carry a full-sized gun...

OpenID rufusdog December 14, 2015 12:53 PM  

“Is that a sorcery 101 summon Nate incantation?”

No its just good advise for a women looking at a 380. 9 is better in almost the same size package. 40 in a small package is too much for a women (and most men).

I consider 9mm to be the perfect small gun round.

Anonymous Anonymous December 14, 2015 12:54 PM  

Ms.Malt-Bovy is a Jewess who hates and fears anything associated with traditional America. I'm not knocking Jews, half my family is Jew. But facts are facts.

Blogger White Knight Leo #0368 December 14, 2015 12:54 PM  

Took my 91/30 to the range for the first time yesterday. Numbers matching 1944 Soviet make. My friend and I got 20 rounds downrange, and the bolt came apart.

Can't decide if I'm going to buy a new bolt or get this one fixed.

Blogger dc.sunsets December 14, 2015 12:54 PM  

Max Brooks described using a handgun against a zombie this way: "Putting the muzzle to a zombie's temple and pulling the trigger takes no skill and ensures a positive kill."

1. I'm not sure I'd take advice on guns from that clown.
2. Plenty of gunfights at near arms-reach where both sides emptied and no one was hit. NYC cops are notorious for launching dozens of bullets with very few hits. Instinctive skill with pistols...isn't.

Blogger McChuck December 14, 2015 12:54 PM  

Second the notion that a rifle is easier to shoot than a shotgun. A decent AR with a red dot sight is the definition of a point and click interface. There is essentially no recoil, which is a real consideration with older people, especially women. And in practical testing, the .223 round goes through fewer walls than buckshot foes, so it's a better idea in urban areas. The pistol grip makes it handier inside a house, too. Add in a rail mounted light, and it's a far superior home defense weapon to a shotgun.

If you really insist on getting a shotgun, may I recommend a 20 gauge instead of a 12 gauge? The recoil is noticeably reduced, while the stopping power at close range is unaffected. You'll practice with it more, because it will hurt your shoulder less - a very important consideration for an older couple.

Anonymous ThirdMonkey VFM 337 December 14, 2015 12:54 PM  

If you get a shotgun for home defense, and you expect the wife and kids to use it, get a 20ga using #3 or #4 buck. Excellent penetration, but only about 55% of the recoil compared to 12ga. Most discount sporting goods stores will sell a Remington 870 20ga with a 16in barrel for around $300. With a little practice, a gun with a barrel that size is pretty easy to maneuver in the average size home. Don't get a "tactical" version. If you kill an intruder in your home, do you want the prosecutor to hold up your bird gun or your "assault" shotgun in front of the jury? As the AR is the most popular gun in the US, at least know how it functions and how to use it. You also need to start hunting. Get used to the idea that pointing a gun at a living thing and pulling the trigger has consequences. And eat what you kill. It will make you a sexual tyrannosaurus. My wife is making some chicken-fry out of this year's mule deer for supper tonight. I will thank her properly for dessert, after the kids have been bathed and put to bed.

Blogger Vox IV December 14, 2015 12:55 PM  

@22 Happy Housewife
The important thing is that the gun fit your hand. Too many women will ask a man about what gun to get, and he will think of everything from accuracy to stopping power, but never hand size. She will wind up with a gun too large for them to shoot accurately and comfortably.
Some shooting ranges have pistols available for rental, so you can give them a try. I highly recommend doing so.

Blogger White Knight Leo #0368 December 14, 2015 12:56 PM  

@57

Oh I'm not taking advice. Just saying out that many acts of self-defense happen at such close range that serious marksmanship training is not necessary.

Blogger Were-Puppy December 14, 2015 12:57 PM  

@54 rufusdog


No its just good advise for a women looking at a 380. 9 is better in almost the same size package. 40 in a small package is too much for a women (and most men).
---

9mm are smooth as butter. Which is very good if you are having arthritis or neuropathy or other pain in your hands.

Blogger Azimus December 14, 2015 1:01 PM  

From the article:
And... we were all white.


Because whites are the only ones who slavishly follow the rules of the bureaucracy?

OpenID rufusdog December 14, 2015 1:02 PM  

“Under what theory of self defense should you be expecting to engage a target at 25 yards with a CC handgun? Unless you live in an OC state and can carry a full-sized gun...”


Because if you learn how to hit fast at distance doing it close is almost boring. Lately I have been setting up one 2/3 IDPA steel target at 15 yards and one at 35 yards, working on adjusting speed between distances. Shooting closer than 10 yards is only fun with the timer.

Blogger White Knight Leo #0368 December 14, 2015 1:11 PM  

@64

And how long is the barrel on the pistol you are doing this with? Iron sights or optic?

Blogger Eric Castle December 14, 2015 1:16 PM  

All this "shall issue" nonsense makes me wax nostalgia for my original weapons purchases years ago when living in Idaho.

Blogger Happy Housewife December 14, 2015 1:17 PM  

@60

That's why I was asking about the 380. I tried several different kinds and liked how that one felt in my hands the best. Was wondering what the folks here had to say about them.

Thanks all! I'm favoring the Walther at the moment. Maybe I'll just get four different kinds?

Anonymous Poli_Mis December 14, 2015 1:21 PM  

How much are things changing? Try this on for size. I am a vet who was qualified on three different weapons but my wife was adamant that I never own any firearms while we have kids in the house. No way.

She doesn't even watch the news except for the bits that I show. This past weekend we were talking about Christmas and what I wanted. I told her all I really wanted was a shotgun. She said that it was fine to get one but not for Christmas. I was gob smacked. It's a start. Rifles and handguns are next. Incrementalism works both ways.

Blogger dc.sunsets December 14, 2015 1:22 PM  

Because whites are the only ones who slavishly follow the rules of the bureaucracy?

Sort of. Because whites are far more likely to have something to lose. The room was full of people who have never spent even an hour in jail, and for whom a night or three in jail might be the end of their occupation.

Contrast that to "other" groups....

Anonymous Rum Raisin December 14, 2015 1:28 PM  

Even some of our liberal friends are arming themselves. One of them was pretty angry about it, saying he didn't like being forced to buy a shotgun to protect his family, but he no longer trusts that the police can or will help.

Blogger Chris Mallory December 14, 2015 1:28 PM  

@67

You need to consider how you are going to carry concealed, if you plan to do so. Body size/type and your style of clothing are both important.
The size and weight of the firearm are very important considerations.
In the end it will come down to the best set of compromises to fit the different requirements you choose.

Blogger White Knight Leo #0368 December 14, 2015 1:32 PM  

@67

While I don't have this problem, I'm told that the shape of the female hips makes holster selection and placement problematic. Something to watch out for.

And if you choose to carry off-body, such as in a purse, you should: a) watch that purse like it's your newborn baby, and b) use a holster anyway, to prevent accidents with the trigger. Especially if you have small children who like to rummage in your purse.

Anonymous ThirdMonkey VFM 337 December 14, 2015 1:34 PM  

@68 Poli_Mis

You need to go home and tell your wife that her side of the closet is being converted into a gun safe, and her dresser drawers can hold loaded magazines. Glad she's getting with the program. You are a more patient man than I.

Gun up or GTFO.

Blogger dc.sunsets December 14, 2015 1:40 PM  

I don't understand the fear of mixing guns and kids. Get a semi-auto pistol and keep the chamber empty. In the unlikely event said pistol is left accessible to a small child, he or she can't possibly retract the slide.

Heck, adult women often have difficulty racking the slide on most lots of pistols.

Blogger Were-Puppy December 14, 2015 1:47 PM  

Because we were subjected to years of stories about little kids shooting themselves with guns left laying about the house.

Blogger White Knight Leo #0368 December 14, 2015 1:52 PM  

@75 @74

It does happen. There was one just two months ago about a 4-year-old who fished a revolver out of his grandmother's purse and accidentally shot himself in the face.

Obviously, the old lady out to have had the thing in a holster. But she didn't, and it happened.

As I recall, Mark Twain (not sure it was him, but it was a late 19th century writer) who wrote about how if one side of a war was composed of loving mothers, and the other side was composed of small boys playing with old, rusted muskets that weren't even supposed to be loaded, the mother side would all die with the first volley. So accidents with children and guns aren't new.

Anonymous Napoleon 12pdr December 14, 2015 1:56 PM  

My father had me shooting a bit at 8, seriously training at 13. And scrubbing guns - two muskets, two carbines, and a percussion revolver.

Blogger Were-Puppy December 14, 2015 1:58 PM  

@76

Not saying it doesn't happen, but I'm sure its way overblown by the media.

Blogger Vox IV December 14, 2015 1:59 PM  

@Happy houswife
Maybe I'll just get four different kinds?

Welcome to the Ilk.

Blogger RAH December 14, 2015 2:01 PM  

Bet it is Pennsylvania. State is shall issue city philly is not

Blogger RAH December 14, 2015 2:02 PM  

Bet it is Pennsylvania. State is shall issue city philly is not

Blogger Unknown December 14, 2015 2:02 PM  

If your wife ``doesn't allow'' guns, get a new wife, or get the current one under control. My wfe knows there are decisions she doesn't get to advise on. Gun and ammunition purchases are on that list.

Anonymous ThirdMonkey VFM 337 December 14, 2015 2:03 PM  

Pistols should be 1) on your person or 2) locked up. And unless you are wearing a purse strapped across your body, it is not "on" you. Purses get snatched, left in restaurants, vehicles, and next to the door when you are walking in with your hands full of groceries. My wife regularly takes anywhere from 1-4 kids with her running errands and has no problem carrying comfortably in a pistol in an appendix holster. Kids also need to know what happens when the trigger is pulled. Take them out and go kill something, like a rabbit or a feminist's cat. They are less inclined to get curious and play with them in the event someone gets careless and they find a gun that is not locked up.

A gunfight at close range (0-9) is can be very difficult for one reason: a gunfight is dynamic, not static. You're not shooting at a stationary target, you are shooting at someone who is moving and is trying to hurt or kill you at the same time. The skill required to hit a 3x5 notecard at 7yds or a 8in plate at 25yds with a pistol under stress of time can translate in to higher rates of success at 0-3 ft.

Blogger Dorsal Spine December 14, 2015 2:04 PM  

My $.02 based on teaching CCW. Buy a gun that fits your hand that you will carry. Train with it. Train more with it. Shooting well is a perishable skill. A .380 is the minimum, 9mm is better. Little guns in any caliber kick more. Buy the biggest gun you can hide.

Forget purse carry. Off body carry for women is an accident waiting to happen. The internet is your friend. There are plenty of web sites by women, for women to help with CCW. Corneredcat.com is a good place to start.

Blogger White Knight Leo #0368 December 14, 2015 2:04 PM  

@83

It's a fair argument, but what kind of pistol are you plinking at 25 yards with? I doubt you'd have much luck with an M&P Shield or anything similarly short.

Blogger Conan the Cimmerian December 14, 2015 2:10 PM  

@67
Thanks all! I'm favoring the Walther at the moment.


Go with the Walther. You won't be sorry.

Get two. Two is one and one is none. (Backups, or if you are similar to me, your backups have backups.)

And if YOU like the .380 over a 9mm, then use the .380.

Blogger Conan the Cimmerian December 14, 2015 2:12 PM  

Off body carry for women is an accident waiting to happen.

There is a reason God created garter concealed carry.

Blogger Conan the Cimmerian December 14, 2015 2:14 PM  

And, as the saying goes, don't childproof your guns, gun proof your children (education and instruction).

Blogger FP December 14, 2015 2:15 PM  

"As I talk to more and more friends about getting a CHL I keep hearing that many don't get one because then they will be on a "list". Is this true? Should it negate getting a CHL?"

As others have said, you're going to be on a list these days for just buying a gun. How many lists depends on the state you live in. Anyone who believes the FBI doesnt keep the background check data or doesnt secretly pass it to the ATF is a fool. The ATF has the right to go to all FFL dealers and copy the physical forms. My state police do the checks themselves (they just are the middle man to the FBI and charge $10 for it*) and while they're supposed to dump the data after two years, no one believes that except the naive who still trust cops. Which sadly seems to be way too many gun owners in my state, even those who are "gun nuts" on gun forums.

The main reason to hold off on a CHL in my opinion is the threat from out of state agencies if you travel by car a lot out of state. Maybe in state too, I had that worry when I was on the road a lot a couple of years ago. Once you get a CHL, it is linked to your drivers license and that data is transmitted to most police agencies when they run your plates/license. A guy from Florida got stopped in Maryland a year or two ago, thrown in a cop car and family on the roadside while they searched for the gun they thought he had as he traversed their fine state. All for supposedly speeding.

Overall, the pros outweigh the cons for most people.

*It was amusing a couple of years ago when the Oregon state police testified to the legislature that getting rid of the $10 check and going directly to the Feds like most states would have a "serious economic impact" on Oregon.

Anonymous ThirdMonkey VFM 337 December 14, 2015 2:17 PM  

@85

Glock 27. Admittedly, a small gun like that in .40S&W can be a difficult gun to shoot. Like most people, I do better with a heavier pistol with a longer sight radius.

Blogger Dorsal Spine December 14, 2015 2:19 PM  

&85
You will be surprised what you can do with a short barreled pistol at 25 yards. Most high quality pistols are more accurate than their owners.

My nephew routinely knocks over bowling pins at 25 yards with a 3 inch barrel Kahr. I use a Glock 23 and average about a 30% success rate in comparison. It's more about trigger control and eyesight than it is about the gun.

Blogger White Knight Leo #0368 December 14, 2015 2:26 PM  

@91

Which would suggest getting a better trigger is a must for that kind of practice.

I can plink pretty accurately at 25 yards with my G19, but that's using a bag of rice as a rest. I can't do it free-standing, and my eyesight isn't that great.

At 10-15 yards, though, I can reliably same-hole rounds. I've had two recent veterans from different services (Army and Navy) tell me that I would probably qualify as "expert pistol" in the military, for what that's worth. I'm much better on quick-draw than on long-range shots though.

Anonymous KoranBurningFaggot December 14, 2015 2:32 PM  

I have had female relatives that could shoot tight shot groups at 8yo.

Unless you practice regularly enough to become solidly good with your weapon all you have bought yourself is a talisman.

You should practice retention firing in case you get attacked by multiple blacks at bad breath range

Is that a sorcery 101 summon Nate incantation?

No but this should work a guy recommending a .22 pistol, for the extra ammo capacity.
http://www.shtfblog.com/bug-out-long-term-b-o-l-t-pistol-part-1/

I want to be able to stand on piles of ammo as if I was Conan the Cimmerian on a pile of dead Stygians

You can always take ammo from dead blue helmets

Under what theory of self defense should you be expecting to engage a target at 25 yards with a CC handgun?

Check out the site WHITE GIRL BLEED A LOT they have hundreds of videos that qualify. The 100+ blacks attacking 3 whites in a Kroger Parking lot would be obvious.

zombie this way: "Putting the muzzle to a zombie's temple

Isn't it risking ruining your gun if you do that with anything but a revolver?

If you kill an intruder in your home, do you want the prosecutor to hold up your bird gun or your "assault" shotgun in front of the jury?

Good to live in a castle law state, even with a window open + a bucket of FKC as bait you don't have to worry

From the article: And... we were all white.

When Eric Holder fought Florida's Felon No Vote Law he admitted that 1 out 3 voting age black males are felons. Misdemeanors could keep people from getting a CCW, in a May Issue state.

I'm told that the shape of the female hips makes holster selection and placement problematic. Something to watch out for

If your woman has tits she can get an under the bra holster.

The ATF has the right to go to all FFL dealers and copy the physical forms

I wish I would have known about the fire at a local gun dealer ahead of time.

Blogger Dorsal Spine December 14, 2015 2:33 PM  

@92
I have the same problem. The eyes are not what they used to be. Bigger sights help. I prefer fiber optic since they are easier to see.

The 25 yard drill for us is a way to stretch out after a day of shooting. It's not something I do all the time. At 25 yards I should be running not shooting in most cases.

A good trigger helps but you don't want a target trigger in a carry gun. My carry guns have been worked on to smooth out the trigger but the pull weight was left alone. I only mention this because I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea about modifying a carry gun.

Blogger White Knight Leo #0368 December 14, 2015 2:39 PM  

@94

I'm familiar with the concept. Wyatt Earp said that a good trigger should be "3 pounds, crisp", or so I'm told (I might be mistaking him for Cooper, which would put me off by almost a century). But he also carried openly as a lawman rather than someone carrying a tiny pistol in an IWB holster. A smooth trigger, not a light one.


@93

I've read pretty much Colin's entire stock of writing, including his published books. It's the reason why I carry 49 rounds of 124gr +P JHP. Still, I don't think opening fire at 25 yards is a good idea unless they are a) armed and b) actively approaching you as opposed to just coming in your general direction.

When rioters are 75 feet away, not visibly armed, and not running towards you, you shouldn't be firing, you should be fleeing. No matter how many rounds you have, unless you've got a rifle and a reason to be defending that spot (meaning its your home, your immobile family or your business), your best bet is to simply get out of the way.

Blogger White Knight Leo #0368 December 14, 2015 2:42 PM  

@93

And I'm pretty sure no one has ever found an actual case where the defensive weapon's appearance or legal modifications were a factor in proving self-defense. Obviously if you modify your semi-auto Remington to fire full-auto, you've got a problem. But the prosecution is not likely to try to claim that you weren't defending yourself with your "assault shotgun" if the perp was found dead in your house.

Anonymous ThirdMonkey VFM 337 December 14, 2015 2:42 PM  

@92

I had a G19. I gave it to my wife and she traded it for a G26. She uses it to shoot old Billy Joel records.

Blogger Mussorgsky112 December 14, 2015 2:44 PM  

If you can afford it, and don't have any problems with single action, Sig's P238 is the best .380 I've ever tried. It's heavy but has great sights and very little recoil. Basically, it's the opposite of the Ruger LCP in many ways

Blogger wahsatchmo December 14, 2015 2:45 PM  

I went to an indoor range for the first time in my life just this weekend.

The range was absolutely packed and all races and ages were represented: an Asian man and his wife were renting pistols, a black man and his sons were shooting, a father was introducing his young son to shooting for the first time, etc. Quite a few couples were there too.

Our state does not require a license to carry, even concealed, so perhaps this is the reason so many races and ages were represented.

But what a good time. People were polite even though it was so busy, no one was egregiously violating any safety rules, and I felt much more comfortable with my XD-9. It really is important to get out there and practice.

Anonymous Hillbilly December 14, 2015 2:49 PM  

For the person looking for a 380 ACP don't overlook the CZ83. CZ makes solid guns IMO.
White Knight Leo you'd be surprised what a good pistol shot can do with a short barreled revolver.
For those of you that can't get to the range all the time here is a good practice system. My son uses the 3 can system to work on draw speed and target indexing
http://www.laserlyte.com/products/trainer-lt-cartridge

Blogger Were-Puppy December 14, 2015 2:50 PM  

@95 White Knight Leo #0368

I'm familiar with the concept. Wyatt Earp said that a good trigger should be "3 pounds, crisp", or so I'm told (I might be mistaking him for Cooper, which would put me off by almost a century). But he also carried openly as a lawman rather than someone carrying a tiny pistol in an IWB holster. A smooth trigger, not a light one.

---

Pretty sure those guys were rocking Colt revolvers

Anonymous KoranBurningFaggot December 14, 2015 2:53 PM  

Leo But the prosecution is not likely to try to claim that you weren't defending yourself with your "assault shotgun" if the perp was found dead in your house

There was a case in New Orleans where a black was seen on security camera jumping a 8' fence at 4am, that the homeowner was prosecuted for attempted murder, until the thug got arrested for burglary again.

https://reason.com/blog/2013/07/28/new-orleans-man-arrested-for-attempted-m

Anonymous ThirdMonkey VFM 337 December 14, 2015 2:56 PM  

KoranBurningFaggot, or, you could trick out your AR with pink accessories. Killing a dindu who invaded your home with a pink gun would get the jury giggling.

If anyone could pull it off, it would be BGS.

Blogger Cogitans Iuvenis December 14, 2015 3:00 PM  

Where does the reader live? Personal experience is no way any reliable indication of national trends however, if you live in an area that is majority Caucasian then I'd expect most of the attendees to be majority Caucasian; granted empirical data could indicate the opposite effect.

In eiher case where I live a good portion of the shooters are young and more than a few aren't Caucasian; in fact I see way more Asians than you'd expect given the percentage of the population they are. Maybe it's a northwest thing I dunno but I've seen this at ranges in more urban/suburban ranges as well as some outdoor sporting clubs that whose typical attendees tends to fit the standard stereotype of gun owners. I've noticed this at some gun/ammo stores as well, at least in the 10-20 miles around where I live. Once again, personal experience isn't necessarily indicative of a larger trend and perhaps I live in an anomalous area relative to the rest of the nation.

OpenID rufusdog December 14, 2015 3:01 PM  

The size of the pistol is mostly irrelevant to accuracy. Good sights and trigger mean way more than barrel length. Size is more of an issue when you are trying to go fast.

I can put my 2/3 scale idpa plate target out at 50 yards offhand and hit it like ringing a bell with my browning buckmark, great trigger and sights. With the Glock I can still hit, but I have to really slow down and focus.

We used to have to shoot at 25 yards to qualify for a CCW (this was years ago), score a 70 or better at an NRA target. Anyway, the guy after me put all ten shots in the black using at snub 357 mag.

I have seen guys run IDPA stages with sub compact 40s…none of them did very well.

Blogger White Knight Leo #0368 December 14, 2015 3:07 PM  

@101

Given that I've been told Lousiana's SYG law is actually stronger than Florida's, that case sounds absolutely insane. And I mean that the way I said it: the prosecution really ought to be committed. Sounds like the DA was up for re-election and was trying to throw a bone to the black community, because no one in his right mind would have suggested that hopping someone's fence at 2am and approaching their back door would indicate anything except an intent to break-in.

Still, that's not a case of the appearance or modifications to the weapon being a factor.

Blogger Cogitans Iuvenis December 14, 2015 3:10 PM  

Also, out of all my buddies who shoot guns only myself and one other person have ever paid for formal instruction. Everyone else has resorted to watching you tube or going to forums and it appears to be indicative of gun culture 2.0. Top Shot Chris Cheng has talked about how he used the bounty of information available online when he started getting into competitive shooting. If traditional publishing media is dying, would it be that big of a stretch to think that perhaps new young shooters are less likely to seek formal instruction and more likely to seek out you tube especially when it's being offered for nothing more than watching a 30 second ad?

Blogger White Knight Leo #0368 December 14, 2015 3:12 PM  

@106

Especially when you can watch champion shooters talk about technique. Like Jerry.

Blogger RC December 14, 2015 3:13 PM  

It's a cause for celebration any time someone takes the red pill in any aspect of life. Hurray!

@Poli: How would you possibly explain to your own wife your decision to be disarmed by her unfounded and incorrect opinion as she's being raped in your own home, you bound and gagged, all because you were ill-prepared?

OpenID rufusdog December 14, 2015 3:14 PM  

Someone mentioned fear earlier, absolutely correct, everyone should be at least a little afraid of guns. Fear is just another way of saying respect. You can always be assured when you see someone doing something foolish with a gun that they don’t have a healthy fear of guns. Grandbaby would still be alive if Grandma had had enough fear to not leave a loaded gun in a purse.

Blogger White Knight Leo #0368 December 14, 2015 3:15 PM  

@104

The problem is the sight radius.

I'm told that shorter barrels bend less during shooting, so with good optics they can actually be more accurate than longer barrels (to a point), but a CC pistol isn't going to have a red-dot or a scope, and how likely are you to see the red laser point on your assailant at 25 yards in the daytime? Even if its a green laser?

But even with a good stance and a good grip, your eyesight is going to make a big difference, more so with a short barrel. I can empty my magazine into the kill zone at 25 yards, but I can't reliably hit any one spot like I can at 10, because my eyes aren't that good.

Anonymous patrick kelly December 14, 2015 3:17 PM  

@71 Chris Mallory: "You need to consider how you are going to carry concealed, if you plan to do so. Body size/type and your style of clothing are both important.
The size and weight of the firearm are very important considerations.
In the end it will come down to the best set of compromises to fit the different requirements you choose."

Worth repeating, so I did.

Grip and trigger fit to hands and fingers is also important, and not necessarily intuitive.

I find the full sized 1911 and Hi-Power to fit and feel much better in my smaller than average hands than compact Glocks or XDs which feel awkward and clunky and I can barely get the end of my finger to the correct spot with good technique.

I owned a large Ruger for years, actually shot pretty good with it at the range and casual target competitions before I even noticed I was using poor technique and canting my hand around the grip a bit to pull the trigger.

ymmv

I need to practice drawing and firing for multiple hits/targets in "real life" scenarios more. It's a perishable skill.

Oh, and if you carry a pocket piece in a pocket/purse/satchel/fag-bag etc., find a range or a buddy with land that will let you practice that way.

You may want to do it unloaded a few times, things get stuck and come out at strange angles sometimes, and you risk accidentally shooting yourself until you get more experience and know what to expect and how to deal with it.

That's one reason why IDPA won't let you draw from a pocket IIRC.

Anonymous JI December 14, 2015 3:25 PM  

How many people on here have had to shoot someone in self-defense and not in a military situation?

Blogger MidKnight (#138) December 14, 2015 3:26 PM  

Even in 1993 it appears the cucks were an obstacle to expanding Civilized Carry

Yeah. For example - the tone policing regarding the open-carry movement. It's one thing if a gun rights guy hauls one aside and privately says "hey, if you're trying to normalize guns, just wear one on your hip and stop trying to look scary tacticool", but another when a lot of the supposed "gun" crowd start posting articles about how nuts the open carry adovcates are.

Guns, and arms, should be a part of everyday life.


RE: hand size - or fit perhaps, biggest reason I will take an XD over a glock. Also like 1911's and Sig's

Also took a concealed carry class. Waiting for my permit now. Class size - shortly after Paris - blew up to well over what they usually have, such that the "range" portion of the class took a lot longer than usually allocated. Interesting mix, a few women included too.

As to concealed carry - since I have to look "presentable" (button shirts or polos, adn tucked) but can't keep a jacket on all the time.... either a pocket gun, or something a little deeper than just "In waist band". Thank god for loose pants.

If your woman has tits she can get an under the bra holster

- Ah, the "flash bang"

Blogger Cogitans Iuvenis December 14, 2015 3:29 PM  

@107

Exactly, Jerry is one of the best around and his video is just out there

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChSazF41q-s

A while ago I was trying to improve the consistency of my pistol grip and I watched this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MY6gwhj5qpY

My grouping has improved since then and I didn't have to spend anything.

Blogger Cogitans Iuvenis December 14, 2015 3:31 PM  

@ 113

Highly recommend the MP Shield in 9mm over a pocket gun. I have the same considerations as you, made the switch from a 380 pocket pistol, never looked back.

Blogger Dorsal Spine December 14, 2015 3:33 PM  

@112
That's not the kind of thing you should ask on a public forum.

Blogger Dorsal Spine December 14, 2015 3:37 PM  

The internet helps, print media helps, videos help, but at some point you need to go to the range and put it all together.

You can't see what you are doing wrong, but a competent instructor can. I teach, I read, I watch video, but I also take classes. There is no substitute for range time with an good instructor.

OpenID rufusdog December 14, 2015 3:39 PM  

The short sight radius will magnify things you are doing wrong, any twitch or wiggle will give you a worse result with a short barrel.
Many times the problem with short barrel pistols is they come with crappy sights.

Seems like the only time I really hear eye sight being a discussion is with older men and they struggle to get a clear sight picture. A guy I shoot with uses glasses where the dominate eye is correct for up close (the sights) and his weak eye is corrected for distance. He does pretty well with them. A different old timer said he had bifocal contacts that work well for him.

Bifocals seem to give guys fits.

Seems like the technology is getting to the point I would suggest old guys look at red dots on their carry gun.

All this is somewhat academic, most are going to point shoot if attacked. Which goes back to my early suggestion about regular practice, your index shooting is going to be much better if you are a regular shooter (and your fundamentals don’t suck).

Anonymous KoranBurngingFaggot December 14, 2015 3:41 PM  

@112 How many people on here have had to shoot someone in self-defense

The reason you don't ask people if they have killed anyone is that those who have not will lie to make themselves seem more bad, while those that have will lie to avoid talking about it.

OpenID rufusdog December 14, 2015 3:46 PM  

LOL, this has sucked me in today. I’ve got to get busy.

Last thing, a good, proper, consistent, hard grip is so important.
There are a bunch of good vids on the net on grip.

I thought Bob Vogel’s vid was great.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45QhpvY9LZc

Anonymous MSP11 December 14, 2015 3:57 PM  

If we are to rely on the America militia we are in trouble. There is no stomach in this country to embrace a Mil Right ideology. Vox sounds a lot like Le Pen in France after she watched her part go down in flames: wishing, hoping, praying, but not addressing reality.

Blogger dc.sunsets December 14, 2015 4:10 PM  

@113 YMMV but a thin 9mm in a tuckable IWB was largely invisible under a dress shirt for me, and I'm relatively tall and thin.

The "range qualifier" at my CCL class bordered on scary. Half the people in attendance could not be trusted to observe the 180. Just the way it is...and I was helping the two instructors manage classmates during the live fire.

Regarding open carry, too many guys trying to Make A Point by annoying people on purpose, rather than acting like it's just an unnoticed EDC accessory. I concur with the viewpoint that making potential bad guys guess who is armed is a Big Part of the Point.

Regarding fit, pistols that are much thinner than they are front-to-back in the grip point better (they index in the hand better) in general. This is part of what is great about 1911's, especially if you put thin grip panels on them. The single-stack or staggered pistols like GL43, Shield, etc. are thus usually better in this regard than true double-column guns like GL17, 19, etc., about which many people complain (about boxiness.)

Anonymous patrick kelly December 14, 2015 4:12 PM  

@121

Le Pen has not gone down in flames, this is not the end, it's not even the end of the beginning.

You likely read the twitter version of history.

Blogger dc.sunsets December 14, 2015 4:12 PM  

All this is somewhat academic, most are going to point shoot if attacked. Which goes back to my early suggestion about regular practice, your index shooting is going to be much better if you are a regular shooter (and your fundamentals don’t suck).

Thanks. I was getting bored with Bullseye League.

Anonymous MSP11 December 14, 2015 4:16 PM  

Patrick,
No one said it was the end for the FM. I said it got its ass kicked. Which it did. Then Le Pen gave a speech ignoring the fiasco.

Blogger Carl Philipp December 14, 2015 4:17 PM  

@99 "Our state does not require a license to carry, even concealed, so perhaps this is the reason so many races and ages were represented."

I live in a stupidly gun-controlled place, so although there is an indoor gun range in town, nobody under 21 is allowed. The beginner's rifle one-day class has quite a diverse mix though; I've seen all sorts of races, and never far from a 50-50 split male-female, in the week I've been shooting.

But the regulars who come in to practice with their own handguns are pretty diverse too. There isn't a beginner's handgun class, because you can't even rent a handgun without a permit.

Anonymous patrick kelly December 14, 2015 4:22 PM  

@118 refusdog: "most are going to point shoot if attacked"

Practicing point shooting goes along with the drawing from alternative carry locations I described earlier. Of course, yes, you should have drilled **with good fundamentals a bunch before doing so**.

Here's a drill I do with pocket carry, it's not for beginners, and again I suggest practicing unloaded/dry-fire with snap caps etc. go very slow before getting in a hurry with a loaded gun:

Face the target, close enough to reach out and touch it.

Draw and fire from the hip.

Take one step back while bringing the pistol up to a one handed position, fire again.

Step back now using the usual good two handed technique, but still point shooting, fire again.

Mix it up with faux walls/barriers/barrels etc to take cover and a reload while moving before engaging again, emptying two or three mags into the target. Add multiple targets, shoot/don't shoot targets etc.

Under pressure you will likely have to deal with jams, dropped mags, or even dropped pistol.

Again, not for beginners, you may want to divide the whole exercise into smaller chunks, mastering each one before adding the next.

ymmv, be careful.

Blogger Spencer Rathbun December 14, 2015 4:25 PM  

@67

I've owned a Bersa .380 for years. It's a nice little gun, but the one issue I have with it is the long trigger pull. There's enough dead space that I have a tendency to "roll" the pistol when I fire it. Even if I've already go the hammer back, I just have to curl my trigger finger too much. If you go with it or the Walther, check the trigger pull.

Blogger Feather Blade December 14, 2015 4:41 PM  

@22 I second the recommendations for a Bersa Thunder .380. It's a good little gun, very low recoil - my aged and infirm grandfather had no problem with firing it - and fits well in my hand. My uncle, a certified gun nut, says it makes a good "my first pistol". It's also inexpensive (as guns go).

It also fits well into a medium sized purse. I wear my purse around my waist, so that I don't leave it anywhere.

@112 - JI - how often have you used your seatbelt in an auto accident? It's the same principle.

Blogger Vox IV December 14, 2015 4:46 PM  

Bifocals seem to give guys fits.

Problem with bifocals is that the lower part of the lens is the weaker lens. It's almost impossible to get the upper part of the lens lined up correctly for sighting. So you wind up using the lower part of the lens, which means you are effectively quite nearsighted and can't focus on the target.

A much better solution is get a cheap pair of Chinese single-focus lenses for target shooting.

The best sight for me is the peep sight on my Lee-Enfield. Unbelievable how the peep improves the sight picture. Not really practical for a pistol though.

Blogger Cogitans Iuvenis December 14, 2015 5:17 PM  

@ 117

That may be, and I don't disagree, but the point I was making wasn't that people didn't need to take a class, it was that with the preponderance of information that is now available via the internet there are probably a lot of people that don't feel a need to do so.

Ultimately I felt the need to mention this because reading the post you get this idea that that are no young people or non-whites interested in learning about firearms...but everything I have seen in person and on various gun forums indicates the opposite. Once again, I could be wrong, but if you go online, to the right places, you see plenty of other people yeah...lots more younguns, women and non-white folk interested in guns. For example, reddit, where I doubt most people over the age of 40 would dare visit, for obvious reasons, is home to r/guns which is in the top 100 subreddits for daily activity and top 200 in subscribers.

Blogger Vox IV December 14, 2015 5:52 PM  

Another indicator,
My son's company, one of the more uptight SJW-oriented workplaces in the country, recently slipped a codicil into the Employee Handbook.
Bringing weapons to work was explicitly prohibited. Now it still is, except for CCW holders, provided the gun remains holstered except in an emergency situation.
No notice, no fanfare, no mention anywhere. My son only saw it because he's a technical writer and was asked to vet the cyber-security portion of the handbook.

Blogger tz December 14, 2015 6:46 PM  

Ready? Some depends on geography.
http://survivalblog.com/redoubt/
I'm encouraging my local friends to all read about 4th Generation Warfare and "Victoria" to explain why I'm not so much afraid of the US Military - at least it (2GW) is more like the threat of an unreasoning instinctive animal.

Most are some form of "Constitutional Carry". 007' needed a license. 307' takes the 2nd.

The police here expect a gun or two to be on the person and think it strange if you DON'T have one unless you are in a school setting.

It actually started before the Redoubt - http://freestatewyoming.org/
The book "Molon Labe" by Boston T Party describes a fictional account of Wyoming seceding, but the last 1/3 is a defense of why the "free state project" should have chosen WY over NH. One of the biggest things was "the gun culture".


Blogger tz December 14, 2015 6:48 PM  

To correct an overedit, The American Redoubt is ID, MT, WY, and the eastern parts of OR and WA. I picked WY so my comments are focused on WY.

Anonymous Napoleon 12pdr December 14, 2015 6:50 PM  

A computer prescription works pretty well, though shooters in the precision disciplines ultimately turn to a dedicated set of shooting glasses that put the focus precisely on the front sight. Some of the best money I ever spent, BTW.

A quality mini-RDS installation is expensive, but probably the ultimate solution.

Blogger dc.sunsets December 14, 2015 7:05 PM  

@ Vox IV, wow! Okay with licensed CCL seems unusual for any employer.

Blogger Vox IV December 14, 2015 7:21 PM  

@136 dc.sunsets
I think someone in HR was frightened by last week's events.

Blogger Chris Mallory December 14, 2015 7:40 PM  

@112

Most self defense firearm uses don't require firing a shot.


On the open/concealed carry, Kentucky has always allowed open carry. When I first started shooting, years ago, I read all the state laws and court cases. Those did give me a bias against concealed carry. The presiding court case for concealed carry in Kentucky, until it was legalized back in '96, made the argument that only a criminal would carry concealed. Honest men were expected to carry openly.
I made my first trip in years to the local mall last weekend, they had removed their signs prohibiting weapons from the entrances and I noticed a couple of guys openly carrying handguns. It didn't look like anyone else noticed them, most people just don't pay attention.

Blogger Matamoros December 14, 2015 7:51 PM  

Don't forget a .410 with a duck bill for home defense. It won't shoot through the walls and get your kids in the next room.

Anonymous private snowball December 14, 2015 8:09 PM  

get your kids in the next room

Sweet HeySues
I've seen this bullshit for years.
Situational awareness boys. You think I'm shooting a fucking .410 at someone with malice. Fuck.

Blogger tz December 14, 2015 9:32 PM  

http://www.theblaze.com/contributions/what-feminism-has-come-to-the-right-to-defecate-alongside-men-in-foxholes/

QED. That said ... I have to laugh as any girly marine trying to confiscate guns while the husband was away would be confronted here by the wife who would shoot, pull the body into the basement or similar convenient space, and figure out proper disposal.

In an earlier thread I postulated "Hi! I'm Debbie and I'm here to confiscate your guns...". I can't say it would end badly, except for Debbie.

As those around here aren't into white slavery, "Debbie" would not be sold to ISIS.

Pity the set of livestock and carnivores is so disjoint.

Blogger Rusty Fife December 14, 2015 10:19 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Anonymous Sylvie December 14, 2015 11:05 PM  

My childhood family was very pacifist, city folk, unarmed (circumstances more than beliefs, however--not my story to tell), but I've been armed ever since getting married and having my own children.

OpenID Jack Amok December 15, 2015 12:12 AM  

A much better solution is get a cheap pair of Chinese single-focus lenses for target shooting.

Nah, better to shoot with whatever you'll be wearing in an emergency.

"Excuse me Achmed, just a moment while I change to my shooting spectacles...here, can you hold these bifocals for me?"

Blogger jimmy_the_freak December 15, 2015 2:10 PM  

I just had a once in a lifetime shot up at hunting camp. Hit bullseye on a target from a benchrest at 100 yards with a T/C Contender .357 maximum. It was my second shot. As soon as it hit, I packed that gun up and put it away. I didn't want to show what a lucky shot it was by failing to hit the paper with my next 3 shots.

Anonymous Anonymous December 15, 2015 6:12 PM  

WKN @ 95:

"When rioters are 75 feet away, not visibly armed, and not running towards you, you shouldn't be firing, you should be fleeing"

Not necessarily, it depends in part whether any of them have noticed you in particular. Just because they aren't running at you right now doesn't mean that can't change in a moment, and covering 25yds in 10 seconds isn't much more than jogging pace.

--Bukulu

Anonymous Discard December 16, 2015 12:11 AM  

For the shotgun novices: Consider a 20 gauge if you're not up to a 12. Shotguns have less power and recoil with higher gauge numbers. 20 is still lethal.

And if you're not much of a long range, high power shooter, lever action carbines firing pistol cartridges might be rifle enough for you.

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