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Wednesday, December 09, 2015

No, there will be no debate

Ken White of Popehat suggests how a reasonable discussion about guns could begin:
We yell, we signal to the like-minded, we circle our wagons, we take shots at opponents. But we don't change minds. Take a look at the discussion of guns on your Facebook feed right now. Do you think it's going to build a majority on any issue?

Say we wanted to have a productive conversation. Imagine we wanted to identify our irreducible philosophical and practical differences, seek any areas of agreement, persuade anyone on the fence, and change some minds. What might we do....

If you'd like to persuade people to accept some sort of restrictions on guns, consider educating yourself so you understand the terminology that you're using. And if you're reacting to someone suggesting gun restrictions, and they seem to suggest something nonsensical, consider a polite question of clarification about terminology.
No. We don't want a discussion. We aren't discussing anything. There is nothing to discuss. There will be no debate. There is absolutely nothing you can say to move us one iota. We have very clearly communicated the same message over and over again: No. Under no circumstances.

Come for them and we'll come for you.

No more free Wacos.

Molon labe.

Labels:

213 Comments:

1 – 200 of 213 Newer› Newest»
Anonymous Ryan December 09, 2015 12:02 PM  

My new favorite blog post of all time.

Blogger Jack Ward December 09, 2015 12:07 PM  

Hoo rah! Yes, a thousand times Yes!

Anonymous perfect10 December 09, 2015 12:08 PM  

Just one word, awesume

Anonymous paleopaleo December 09, 2015 12:10 PM  

Thanks for this man. My blood pressure and mental health have much improved because I've finally adopted the attitude expressed here. Most people cannot be reasoned with. I wish I'd known this 20 years ago.

Blogger CM December 09, 2015 12:10 PM  

I want a discussion.

Diversity kills.

Anonymous Leonidas December 09, 2015 12:13 PM  

How many times do we have to say it? We don't care.

OpenID basementhomebrewer December 09, 2015 12:14 PM  

@5 I see your discussion and raise you. Diversity + Arrogance + Ignorance + Good Intentions = deaths on a massive scale.

OpenID elijahrhodes December 09, 2015 12:15 PM  

But... but... Ken sounds to sensible and moderate. All he's asking for is a little compromise from both sides. Who could possibly be against that?

Blogger Groot December 09, 2015 12:16 PM  

Sometimes compromise isn't acceptable.

You want not to be eaten. Their suggested compromise:

"What about their legs? They don't need those."

Blogger Doom December 09, 2015 12:20 PM  

Untrue! I want discussion. When will we get full gun rights back? We, as citizens, should have access to every firearm the military can use. We shouldn't have limits for this, or that, reason. There is plenty of room for discussion on gun rights, but only regarding the full restoration of those rights. So, yeah, I want to talk about it.

Blogger OddRob December 09, 2015 12:24 PM  

But... How many American deaths are you willing to accept to permit gun ownership?

Blogger VD December 09, 2015 12:25 PM  

How many American deaths are you willing to accept to permit gun ownership?

Accept? Or commit? Either way, the answer is: as many as it takes.

Blogger Nemo Maximus December 09, 2015 12:29 PM  

If they can't successfully ban Cocaine, what makes them think they can ban guns?

The war on guns has as much likelihood of success as the war on drugs. Even less, since drugs can't shoot back.

Blogger Red Jack December 09, 2015 12:37 PM  

@13 They never really tried to ban cocaine. One of things that this place has done is change my view on the Drug War. The amount of money funneled into LE for drug enforcement is staggering. Simply put, the elite are fine with some drugs.

They are far more afraid of armed peasants. As all nobles have been

Anonymous The One December 09, 2015 12:38 PM  

Yawn. Please will all you losers google 3d printing and guns. You lost a long time ago. We do't care.

Blogger Sean December 09, 2015 12:39 PM  

There can be no debate in the USA on firearms because the anti gun people see every concession as the baseline for the next set of concessions, with a complete ban being their ultimate aim. The pro-gun people have no incentive to compromise on anything.

Anonymous The One December 09, 2015 12:41 PM  

Since Trump said his plan will only apply to non citizen Muslims, I'm willing to accept thousands of Muslim Americans deaths. What about the rest of the Ilk?

Anonymous taqiyyologist December 09, 2015 12:41 PM  

"Can't we just TALK about women being allowed to vote?"
"Can't we just TALK about gays being allowed to take Communion?"
"Can't we just TALK about gays being allowed to be priests?"
"Can't we just TALK about women being allowed to be priests?"
"Can't we just TALK about gay priests adopting boys?"

NO.

They're not called Progressives for nothing. You'll give them an inch, they'll give you nothing.

Every time.

Anonymous MrGreenMan December 09, 2015 12:42 PM  

One starts to wonder if gun grabbers and leftist ideology in general should be added to Proverbs 30:16, or if the barren womb covers that.

Anonymous patrick kelly December 09, 2015 12:43 PM  

"How many American deaths are you willing to accept to permit gun ownership?"

"as many as it take" yep.

How many are you willing to accept to stop the US from being taken over by a Caliphate and be run by Sharia law?

Do the lives of soldiers who take an oath and die to defend the 2nd Amm. not matter?

Anonymous The One December 09, 2015 12:43 PM  

You forgot

Can't we just TALK about ripping live babies apart over wine?

Anonymous taqiyyologist December 09, 2015 12:43 PM  

Can't we just TALK about using the Koran instead of the New Revised Standard Version?

Coming soon.

OpenID Jack Amok December 09, 2015 12:44 PM  

How many American deaths are you willing to accept to permit gun ownership?

I'm willing to accept my own. And I'm willing to do whatever I can to make it very, very costly.

Blogger dc.sunsets December 09, 2015 12:44 PM  

Responsible discussion with a cannibal about what parts of my body are fair game for his pot?

No thanks.

Blogger dc.sunsets December 09, 2015 12:45 PM  

I'll believe in responsible discussion after half of the golf courses in the USA are turned into rifle ranges.

Anonymous The One December 09, 2015 12:46 PM  

@Taq

Very nice, clap clap

Anonymous PaulR #0393 December 09, 2015 12:46 PM  

paleopaleo:

I completely agree. If Vox had done nothing else I would owe him for opening my eyes to this.

It's exhilarating to watch the rabbits run when you give them a rhetorical smacking.

Blogger Alexander December 09, 2015 12:46 PM  

Happily, at this stage I expect it's more likely to see Europeans lynching politicians until gun rights are a thing there than Americans are to be led one restriction at a time into regulation.

Anonymous patrick kelly December 09, 2015 12:47 PM  

@16 Sean: "The pro-gun people have no incentive to compromise on anything."

Yeah, whenever someone asks me why I won't compromise, I point out the thousands of laws we already compromised with.

If they're willing to trim those down to about a dozen, then we could start a dialog about which of those to get rid of.

That's my compromise, cuz' otherwise I just want to reset all Fed and State gun laws back to pre 34' NFA.

Anonymous The One December 09, 2015 12:47 PM  

new hashtag "#cantwejusttalk" Anyone game who does computers/twitteR?

Blogger Lovekraft December 09, 2015 12:47 PM  

My opinion of the left, as low as it is, is that they have not a shred of integrity in debating important matters. There is no evidence that they have ever changed their views when presented with compelling evidence/argument; any defeat just means they go away, lick their wounds, and try again.

Are there any republicans/conservatives that matter that do not capitulate to this sustained opposition? How have they ''won"? Could you even picture an Obama or Clinton admitting they were wrong - an admission with substance? Nope.

Trump will have to relent on certain issues in order to avoid turning the US into a complete clusterfuck. He may try to reign in the courts. Maybe go after the media. But his main focus will probably have to be economic, of which immigration is integral. Socialist candidates have no answers to the economic plight of the average American and double down by diverting attention away from the costs of mass third-world immigration.

Anonymous taqiyyologist December 09, 2015 12:48 PM  

They get what they want EVERY TIME we say, "Okay. Just this once. After all, we're just having a conversation. Where's the harm in just talking?"

So: "NO. Goodbye."

Blogger ScottD December 09, 2015 12:50 PM  

The top post on Popehat right now is by a guy who says he plans to vote for Bernie Sanders (but he's supposedly great on free speech because he sued ISP on behalf of porn sites to get the names of file sharers). Site has no idea what it is doing.

Anonymous taqiyyologist December 09, 2015 12:50 PM  

"Can't we just TALK about teaching kids about fisting and dental dams in the fourth grade?"

--Kevin Jennings.

I could go on, but no need. Not here.

Anonymous WillBest December 09, 2015 12:51 PM  

White homicide rate 2.5 per 100k
black homicide rate 19.4 per 100k

The US doesn't have a gun problem.

Anonymous BigGaySteve December 09, 2015 12:52 PM  

I want a discussion.Diversity kills. Even we fled die verse city.

If they can't successfully ban Cocaine, what makes them think they can ban guns?

We can't even keep cocaine out of prisons where people don't have any rights, or democrat Mayors, and its banned in Canada & Mexico.

Yawn. Please will all you losers google 3d printing and guns.

Forget that, $1500 and you can press a button to CNC all the AR-15 lower receivers you want.
https://ghostgunner.net/index.html

Blogger Xmas December 09, 2015 12:53 PM  

OddRob,
I'm willing to accept gun deaths as long as they stay at or below automobile deaths and drug overdoses. Since suicides are about 2/3rds of gun deaths in this country, I think we should do definitely something about that. If you look at the CDC numbers, suicide by gun make up the largest component of gun deaths, and most of those suicides are done by white men. I think the appropriate course of action is validate and accept the fears and concerns of white men and have a national conversation on how society devalues the lives of white men.

Blogger James Dixon December 09, 2015 12:54 PM  

> If you'd like to persuade people to accept some sort of restrictions on guns,

The restrictions you talk about are already in place. They've been in place for decades. And yet all you ever want is more, more, more. You don't want "some" restrictions on guns. You want to ban all guns. It's that simple. The more open of you will even admit it.

And we've reached and passed our limits. No. No more. Not one single inch farther. Molon labe

> But... How many American deaths are you willing to accept to permit gun ownership?

How many deaths are you willing to accept due to mandated seat belt usage? How many deaths due to Muslim immigration? How many due to FDA restrictions on asthma drugs? The list is endless.

As to the answer: All of them. We'll all die to keep our guns, and we'll take all of the opposition with us if we can.

OpenID Jack Amok December 09, 2015 12:54 PM  

An experimental tactic that I'm trying out on social media for the gun-grabbers is to take a neutral stance but focus on the potential downsides of each side of the issue and insist everyone making public statements about it one way or the other needs to realize they are responsible for any negative consequences of what they advocate.

I don't know if this will be successful or not, but my theory is that planting the thought in the gun-grabbers head that they could be wrong and if they are they'll be responsible might cause them sufficient psychological distress to shut them up. It's part of my theory that our biggest societal problem is too many irresponsible people feel comfortable participating in decision making, and we need solutions to that problem.

Blogger Hammerli280 December 09, 2015 12:54 PM  

I want a discussion...of whether the elected thugs who have saddled us with 25,000 gun laws go to prison for civil rights violations, or straight to the gallows.

Blogger kmbr December 09, 2015 12:55 PM  

**If they can't successfully ban Cocaine, what makes them think they can ban guns**

No, but then they can criminalize the use of it. So when four yutes decide to kick in your front door while you are home (as happened to me last year-true story-- and no, I didn't shoot anyone, I jumped out the front window--broad daylight in a lily white heavily Mormon area--Talk about reality hitting your normalcy bias right in the face!) well when that happens and you are in the position to have to defend your family and self--you are then facing criminal charges and though you had contraband plutonium in your possession.

You might live but you are facing jail time, legal fees, publicity, etc. etc.

So, cocaine may be illegal and you may be able to score it 15 different ways in a 5 mile radius--but do you really want to be caught with it?

Blogger Jourdan December 09, 2015 12:55 PM  

One cannot debate a fundamental right. The U.S. Government was established to protect and ensure our ancient rights and liberties. This is one of them. I can't think of a better way of setting off a second civil war in this county than a determined New England-led move to curtail those rights. If one finds this right ridiculous or offensive or scary, there are 168 other nations in which to live, including peaceful gun-free paradises like France.

Anonymous BGS December 09, 2015 12:59 PM  

Oddly leftists never want greater consequences for those that commit gun crimes. I like to ask "How about the death penalty for convicted felons caught with guns?" "What sort of penalty should someone who steals guns and sells them face, such as the gay anti gun mayor of Harrisburg PA who not only passed local gun restrictions but was caught stealing over 20 guns from the city's civil war museum & selling them?"

Blogger Daniel December 09, 2015 1:00 PM  

People assuming that the default is to discuss things with you are akin to whores who assume their pimp will be supportive of them going out on their own.

Blogger dc.sunsets December 09, 2015 1:01 PM  

The Left-collectivist (Dominant Narrative) premise is that total violence (political state + freelance) will be lower if good citizens cannot contribute to it.

Static analysis is their specialty, right alongside illogic and denial of reality.

Anonymous joe doakes December 09, 2015 1:02 PM  

When they came for the assault rifles, I said nothing because . . .

Anonymous The One December 09, 2015 1:03 PM  

@kmbr

That's because the real war hasn't started yet. Imagine what will happen when police are set up so that when they starting kicking in houses the place is rigged for a bomb to get set off. Shit will end real fast.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uunOZexpHEI

Blogger Daniel December 09, 2015 1:03 PM  

When they came for the assault rifles, I said nothing because . . .

...there was nothing to discuss. As always.

Anonymous The Return of Bill Ding December 09, 2015 1:03 PM  

Vox says Molon labe safely from his home in Italy. A country with much stricter gun laws than here in the good ole US of A. What a hypocrite. Tell us more about how important gun rights are to you, in a country with stricter gun laws.

Blogger Mike Farnsworth December 09, 2015 1:06 PM  

And all I have to say about this is: https://www.ghostgunner.net/

CNC machines are in many cases getting downright affordable these days. Cat's out of the bag, dudes, and it ain't going back in without a major fight.

Blogger James Dixon December 09, 2015 1:07 PM  

> Tell us more about how important gun rights are to you, in a country with stricter gun laws.

Because Italians are well known for being so law observing, aren't they?

Anonymous Whitey McWhite December 09, 2015 1:07 PM  

The "discussion" they want is the one that in Australia ended in confiscation. They even say that's what they want.

Blogger dc.sunsets December 09, 2015 1:08 PM  

Gun bans.
Mandatory toleration of the delusional (to the point of metaphorically referring to them as "Emperor Napoleon.")
Open borders immigration.
Equilibration of arrests and prison sentences between the races.
Equilibration of the attention black women receive to that which white women receive on dating sites.

Is it me, or is there a qualitative difference to The Narrative lately?

What was stupid before (e.g., If we divert enough loot, we can make black kids as smart as white kids) appears to have gone Full Retard.

Blogger John Wright December 09, 2015 1:08 PM  

"Say we wanted to have a productive conversation..."

Free man cannot have productive conversations with slaves.

Molon Labe, Baby.

Blogger David-2 December 09, 2015 1:09 PM  

I read the column differently. I thought it was basically Popehat saying to the gun grabbers: "You guys wonder why no one pays attention to your bleating? It's because you make no sense whatsoever."

He framed it as "how to have a discussion" because that's the favored frame of the SJWs (yes, I know, the "discussion" is always SJWs telling you what you must do, even so, that's the word they prefer to use as camouflage).

I especially liked the "military dog" analogy.

Still, I don't think it is going to be an effective post teaching the gun grabbers anything. Because they can't be taught. Because feelz.

Anonymous Anonymous December 09, 2015 1:10 PM  

I get VD's point about no debate, but also Doom's in #10.

A modest proposal. New restriction: All gun transactions have to be consummated by the acquirer eating a properly cooked piece of bacon (consumer's discretion whether they prefer chewy or crunchy). In exchange, eliminate all fire arms restrictions imposed since and including the 1934 NFA.

We can preserve all of the firearms restrictions from the first 100 years of the country, in exchange for alleviating the restrictions from the last 100 years.

Fair compromise?

Bunker hill was defended with privately owned artillery.

The Constitutional construct of letters of marque was because warships, including the most powerful artillery of the day, were in private hands. I want government recognition of my civil right to my cannon. And I am willing to compromise by eating bacon to get it.

Daedalus Mugged

Blogger John Wright December 09, 2015 1:12 PM  

I take it back. Free men can have productive discussions with slaves about how to increase production.

But not about the topic of freedom. You must be free to understand 'free'.

Blogger Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus December 09, 2015 1:12 PM  

Do you think it's going to build a majority on any issue

I'm pretty sure my pro-gun side already has the majority, so who cares what a few SJWs and their fagservative enablers think?

Blogger Karl December 09, 2015 1:13 PM  

I have full confidence in the GOP leadership on this issue. Speaker William T. Riker, reporting.


Blogger dc.sunsets December 09, 2015 1:14 PM  

Who's the "they" intended to actually enforce all these hair-brained schemes?

Heartiste has a "punchable shitlib" photo contest running, and I don't see any of the contestants running around door-to-door.

Black Friday's Instant Check record is all we needed to know. The topic is no longer open for debate, and it doesn't matter how many real, fake or scripted shootings occur. Modern Sporting Rifles are flying off shelves still (although the prices have come down markedly) and it's not because people think the nation's being overrun by coyotes. (or have I stumbled upon something...)

Anonymous DT December 09, 2015 1:17 PM  

SHALL. NOT. BE. INFRINGED.

I want to take a hot iron and brand every liberal's forehead with that phrase. See if they get it then.

Blogger CM December 09, 2015 1:18 PM  

new hashtag "#cantwejusttalk" Anyone game who does computers/twitteR?

Since suicides are about 2/3rds of gun deaths in this country, I think we should do definitely something about that. If you look at the CDC numbers, suicide by gun make up the largest component of gun deaths, and most of those suicides are done by white men. I think the appropriate course of action is validate and accept the fears and concerns of white men and have a national conversation on how society devalues the lives of white men.

There's the start of that Twitter war.

"2/3 of all gun deaths are suicides."

"Majority of gun suicides are white males."

"Stop gun death. Validate and accept fears and concerns of white men."

If neither of you wants to post it, I would.

Anonymous kfg December 09, 2015 1:20 PM  

"When will we get full gun rights back?"

When we stop discussing it and take them.

Anonymous DT December 09, 2015 1:20 PM  

@56 A modest proposal. New restriction: All gun transactions have to be consummated by the acquirer eating a properly cooked piece of bacon (consumer's discretion whether they prefer chewy or crunchy). In exchange, eliminate all fire arms restrictions imposed since and including the 1934 NFA.

Wow...and I never thought I would see a gun control law I could agree with.

Chewy please.

Blogger tycho #0401 December 09, 2015 1:21 PM  

Molon Labe!

Anonymous taqiyyologist December 09, 2015 1:23 PM  

@62 CM

That would be neat to see.

#whitesuicidelivesmatter #bangunssavewhites

Blogger LP999 December 09, 2015 1:23 PM  

No! No more debates! I'm too busy and checked out from such stupidity, I dont want their idiocy infecting me.

These debates are pointless, needlessly contentious, deceptive from the other side. I've listened, conversed, held back a little and walked away when its always those who must defend or protect themselves being asked to stop defeating or protecting self.


I've walked away from since 2007.

In avoiding, its served my peace and other sides' lack of reality. Those with a lack of reality and a hope in others to help them are not conversing with. I just pray when their danger days arrive their faith won't be shaken.

I am tired of the debate, not due to exhaustion but its tiresome to be convinced to stop defending myself when I am threatened, made not safe and NO ONE is coming to my aid.

No one is responsible for my defense.

(When family was well self defense was a priority as everyone around me fell ill I was the last one standing to act accordingly to hold our helm. We could hunt, protect ourselves even though that occasion was rare.)

Tell me, who is coming to my defense? Aside from my Jireh I am left to hold my own.

Blogger John Wright December 09, 2015 1:24 PM  

@40

"I want a discussion...of whether the elected thugs who have saddled us with 25,000 gun laws go to prison for civil rights violations, or straight to the gallows."

I would like a discussion as to whether we can get this taken up by the Inquisition rather than the secular court, on the grounds that we get to burn unrepentant heretics at the stake, which is a nastier and long-lasting death.

These gun-grabbers want my children dead or enslaved. They are opposed to the primary (libertarians say 'the sole') business of forming a civil society in the first place, that is, to protect man from the dangers of anarchy, what Hobbes charmingly called 'the state of nature.'

The attempt to remove from us the protect we seek in joining civilization in the first place abolishes all civility. The discussion should be about how to punish the thugs, not how to compromise with them.

Hanging is too good for them.

Anonymous Donn #0114 December 09, 2015 1:25 PM  

a big greasy piece of fat back cooked in beans with some candied bacon crumbles on top. I'm willing to compromise. Oh, and a shot of bourbon (at least sipping quality) afterward you desecrate the Koran.

Then you can buy any gun you want. Unless you're a tee-totaller. Then you can pour the bourbon over the koran and light it.

Those seem like perfectly reasonable compromises to me.

Or none at all which ever you prefer. I just want the free beans and bourbon when I go in for a purchase.

Anonymous KPP December 09, 2015 1:26 PM  

A classic:

"LESSON NO. 1: If a bureaucrat, or a soldier sent by a bureaucrat, comes to knock down your door and take you someplace you do not want to go because of who you are or what you think -- kill him."

"LESSON NO. 2: If a bureaucrat, or a soldier sent by a bureaucrat, comes to knock down your door and confiscate your firearms -- kill him. The disarmament of law-abiding citizens is the required precursor to genocide."

http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2009/02/vanderboegh-classic-what-i-have-learned.html

Blogger CM December 09, 2015 1:30 PM  

New restriction: All gun transactions have to be consummated by the acquirer eating a properly cooked piece of bacon (consumer's discretion whether they prefer chewy or crunchy).

That's good for twitter, too

Anonymous BGS December 09, 2015 1:31 PM  

Don't forget they want to ban cash also.

Greeks Must Declare Non-Bank, Personal Assets – Who's Next? - See more at: http://www.thedailybell.com/news-analysis/36680/Greeks-Must-Declare-Non-Bank-Personal-Assets--Whos-Next/#sthash.EqLsm9LO.dpuf

OpenID Jack Amok December 09, 2015 1:34 PM  

I just want the free beans and bourbon when I go in for a purchase.

Sadly, I cannot support your proposal, as forcing someone to choke down government-provided beans, bacon and bourbon would a gross (in two of the three definitions of the word) violation of basic human rights.

Anonymous bw December 09, 2015 1:36 PM  

Americans used to mail order them anonymously.
There was no issue or problem created by such. The real problem is what Marxists, who Project on and on concerning scary guns, will never ever begin to discuss: their destruction of Western Society. ie, their morality system.

Anonymous MrGreenMan December 09, 2015 1:37 PM  

@68

I was in Cincinnati, Ohio, and I saw that there's an Ohio Bourbon. I guess the thinking is - steal the water before it gets to Kentucky. So, you wouldn't have to use the expensive stuff to comply.

Anonymous Donn #0114 December 09, 2015 1:39 PM  

Who said anything about the government. The gunshop owner's wife could cook it and the gunshop could keep some decent bourbon on hand.

My uncle owned a gun shop and had the finest of sipping whiskies and auntie made great beans. It's called promotion. The shop with the best beans and bacon wins.

Blogger James Dixon December 09, 2015 1:40 PM  

> Greeks Must Declare Non-Bank, Personal Assets

You know, that's almost funny. I wonder if the actually expect anyone to comply.

Blogger Darth Toolpodicus (#144) December 09, 2015 1:40 PM  

"Hanging is too good for them."

...Burning is too good for them, They should be ripped into little pieces, and buried Alive.

Blogger Darth Toolpodicus (#144) December 09, 2015 1:41 PM  

"Hanging is too good for them."

...Burning is too good for them, They should be ripped into little pieces, and buried Alive.

Blogger Mike Farnsworth December 09, 2015 1:41 PM  

@56 -NFA +bacon

Crunchy all the way! (Just shy of blackened.)

Anonymous Donn #0114 December 09, 2015 1:41 PM  

Jack you could forgo the fine bacon, bourbon and beans as you are a conscientious objector.

Blogger DadOfTen December 09, 2015 1:42 PM  

@43. BGS You mean the gay, anti-gun mayor of Harrisburg who was embarrassed when the local media printed a picture of him holding his personal handgun at the ready as he knelt behind a police car during a shooting incident he couldn't stay away from? That one?

Blogger Darth Toolpodicus (#144) December 09, 2015 1:42 PM  

Correction: Little Bitsy Pieces.

Blogger Darth Toolpodicus (#144) December 09, 2015 1:42 PM  

Correction: Little Bitsy Pieces.

Blogger JDC December 09, 2015 1:44 PM  

Don't waste your breath on fools, for they will despise the wisest advice. Prov 23:9

Blogger Joshua_D December 09, 2015 1:44 PM  

Is there anything worse that utilitarians? I mean, I think I'd take Calvinists over utilitarians.

Blogger rho December 09, 2015 1:44 PM  

A reasonable discussion about guns has already been had. You can't buy a M249 at Wal-Mart with no waiting period, for example.

But, yes, molon labe and all that.

Anonymous Donn #0114 December 09, 2015 1:44 PM  

A friend makes candied bacon every Christmas. It's delicious and addictive. And the saracen wants to take it away. Reason enough for a new Crusade.

Anonymous ben December 09, 2015 1:45 PM  

I'm willing to accept... no, that's not right... I would like to enforce restrictions on firearm possession for individuals who take drugs in order to treat emotional disorders such as anxiety or depression. 100% of all actual random mass shootings that were not acts of Muslim terrorism were committed by people on these types of medications.

To get a prescription for Valium, Prozac, etc. one should first have to give up all their guns, and should not be permitted to acquire new ones until they have been drug free for a year. The guns could go to friends, into a vault the owner cannot access, or whatever, but they have no business possessing a firearm.

If your kids are on these medications, you must lock the guns up, do not take the kids shooting, and don't be an idiot.

Anonymous A Visitor December 09, 2015 1:48 PM  

"No. We don't want a discussion. We aren't discussing anything. There is nothing to discuss. There will be no debate. There is absolutely nothing you can say to move us one iota. We have very clearly communicated the same message over and over again: No. Under no circumstances."

You know, I am extremely optimistic for the future. When I was in my late teens and early 20's, I thought, this country is hosed. It may be. However, the rallying around 2A rights, immigration restriction, and an increase in young devotion to religion within the past couple years and seeing the momentum, there'll be ups and downs but we're here to stay. That what pisses off the Left. God bless the Internet.

I agreed with him saying that he'd listen to someone who explains how they got it wrong on gun control and would like to avoid similar mistakes in the future. Note the word: listen. It's not going to change my views. You know what would be great for every American who is a) on the fence about firearms or b) anti-firearm? Give them two months and take them to some of the most oppressive countries in the world. Let them see how a government treats its citizens when they can't defend themselves. Then, bring them back here.

@10 A friend who bought an AR years ago right after he got back from Afghanistan told me when he was looking at variants, he was talking with one of the dealers. The dealer told him he bought his first firearm when he was 12, walked in to the store, paid cash, and walked out. I agree. We should be able to have everything the military does.

@11 How many have died because they couldn't defend themselves from their government or from robbers, etc? I rest my case.

@15 Shhh...don't give them any ideas.

@18 YES!

@25 I hate golf. My idea of a good time? The range.

@37 30,000 Americans die every year in auto accidents. We have to ban autos! #forthechildren

@38 It reminds me of a debate I got into with someone at an embassy. They said, in essence, that it was a bunch of fearmongering about firearms being confiscated, no politician had called for it, etc. I dropped what Feinstein said. You should've seen her head explode. Heh heh.

@43 Remember you civics books in high school or college talking about how the Founding Fathers would be surprised at the changes they'd see if they were alive today? I've recently started thinking, they'd be horrified and start a second revolution.

@60 Considering how many of them speak English as a second language (that's only partially a joke nowadays), they probably don't understand.

Blogger VD December 09, 2015 1:49 PM  

I'm willing to accept... no, that's not right... I would like to enforce restrictions on firearm possession for individuals who take drugs in order to treat emotional disorders such as anxiety or depression.

No. No compromises. Lock the crazy fuckers up. The drugs don't work anyhow.

Blogger ajw308 (#98) December 09, 2015 1:49 PM  

A reasonable discussion about guns has already been had. You can't buy a M249 at Wal-Mart with no waiting period, for example.
But soon you will. It just won't have the fun switch.

Blogger ajw308 (#98) December 09, 2015 1:51 PM  

@25, @89 A golf course is a waste of a perfectly good rifle range.

Anonymous BGS December 09, 2015 1:51 PM  

81-BGS You mean the gay, anti-gun mayor of Harrisburg who was embarrassed when the local media.

Not sure about that, it was Steven Reed, who stole guns from the civil war museum & sold them at Gettysburg.

OT: If you find yourself about to run over a moslem, black or illegal, make sure to turn off your car's 911 Assist
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2015/12/07/this-smart-car-seems-to-have-tattled-on-its-driver/

Anonymous bw December 09, 2015 1:51 PM  

The "discussion" they want is the one that in Australia ended in confiscation.

After Port Arthur false flag "massacre" in '96?

From the book Deadly Deception at Port Arthur by the late Joe Vialls. "Brigadier Ted Sarong DSO OBE, the former head of Australian Forces in Vietnam and one of the world's leading experts on counter-terrorist techniques and their application. In an interview with Frank Robson in the Sydney Morning Herald on 10 April 1999, Brigadier Serong makes it plain that Martin Bryant could not have been responsible for the mass murder at Port Arthur. "There was an almost satanic accuracy to that shooting performance" he says. "Whoever did it is better than I am, and there are not too many people around here better than I am". He continues "Whoever did it had skills way beyond anything that could reasonably be expected of this chap Bryant ... if it was someone of only average skills, there would have been many less killed and many more wounded. It was the astonishing proportion of killed to wounded that made me open my eyes first off." Brigadier Serong believes more than one person was involved and directly infers that the mass murder at Port Arthur was a terrorist action designed to undermine Australian national security. "It was part of a deliberate attempt to disarm the population, but I don't believe John Howard or his Government were involved. Howard is being led down a track. He doesn't know where it's leading, and he doesn't much care...""

Anonymous ben December 09, 2015 1:54 PM  

No. No compromises. Lock the crazy fuckers up. The drugs don't work anyhow.

I find this an acceptable alternative. And I agree that the drugs do not work and are counter productive.

Blogger Buddy E. December 09, 2015 1:58 PM  

And that right there is called throwing down the gauntlet, stomping it flat, and shoving it right up their ass.

There is no discussion to be had.

There is no compromise when one side takes and the other gives.

Bravo.

Anonymous Heh December 09, 2015 1:58 PM  

There can be no debate in the USA on firearms because the anti gun people see every concession as the baseline for the next set of concessions, with a complete ban being their ultimate aim. The pro-gun people have no incentive to compromise on anything.

Another way to look at it is that the pro-gun people already accepted all the "common sense, moderate" restrictions that the anti-gunners proposed. And what do you know, the anti-gunners kept wanting more! It's almost like appeasing the enemy leads to even more demands, or something.

When they came for the assault rifles, I said nothing because . . .

I too busy was steadying my breathing and making sure I had a good sight picture.

Blogger Buddy E. December 09, 2015 1:59 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Anonymous Leonidas December 09, 2015 2:05 PM  

The drugs don't work anyhow.

Sure they do - once you acknowledge that their actual purpose is just to keep people drugged up, legally, make them go even crazier, and make lots of money for Big Pharma.

Seriously, though, I've got too many people in my life these days who have been on the psych meds for years - if not decades - and they are all more messed up now than they were before they started the meds.

Remember, kids, meth was once the drug the establishment pushed on housewives to save them from all their troubles, too.

Blogger DadOfTen December 09, 2015 2:10 PM  

@93. BGS It was Mayor Steven Reed. A very good photo of him, but many years ago.

Blogger Brad Andrews December 09, 2015 2:11 PM  

What would be the currently best 3-D printer to purchase, with the added benefit of helping in this case?

Blogger David-2 December 09, 2015 2:12 PM  

@88 - Beware of unintended consequences. What happens if your rule is enacted and therefore, as a result, people with these problems choose to not seek treatment for fear of restrictions. What happens, if your rule is enacted and therefore, as a result, government pushes to force more people to take medication (e.g., students to take Ritalin). What happens, if your rule is enacted, if government decides that there are more rights that can be restricted, for the good of all, for people who take medications? Who is to decide at what point a person no longer needs medication and therefore that the restrictions no longer apply? (Does taking an antidepressant during, say, high school, mean you can never own guns the rest of your life?)

Consider the above in light of our current health care issues, and especially the drive to coerce employers (via insurance costs) to insist that employees not smoke and not be overweight, and the drive to coerce doctors (via AMA "best practice guidelines") to ask patients if they have smoke alarms, own guns, etc.

Certainly there should be sufficient in-patient facilities to treat (or hold) people who are dangerous to others (and/or to themselves). Certainly there should be procedures that balance individual rights against danger to the community that allow a person to be committed even against their will (currently there is no such "balance"). But I'm extremely wary of allowing government - or any other authority - of using the force of law to restrict me (or anyone) based on their judgement of my mental state. See this, for example.

Blogger Brad Andrews December 09, 2015 2:14 PM  

What would be the currently best 3-D printer to purchase, with the added benefit of helping in this case?

Blogger dh December 09, 2015 2:15 PM  

Everytime you see a request to upend the 2nd amendment, just suggest breaking the 1st amendment instead. Ban some religions, and end freedom of the news media to report on mass shootings. Those are all things that they have in countries without the 2nd amendment.

I have found it to be a very effective.

Blogger Buddy E. December 09, 2015 2:22 PM  

@Brad

I'd suggest you're better off getting a desktop cnc like TAIG or something similar. Much more useful than current FDM 3DP tech right now.

Blogger Hammerli280 December 09, 2015 2:23 PM  

@67 John Wright:

Hanging may be too good for them, but I'm not sure I really want to waste a perfectly good campfire burning a thug.

Anonymous Adam1 December 09, 2015 2:24 PM  

@69 When two 500lb,knukle-walking,`roid-headed raubritters tell you to put your hands on your head--DON`T! They`ll just steal your .45,$300 in cash, and a library book. So just shoot the bastards and be done with it!

Anonymous tz December 09, 2015 2:25 PM  

How many deaths are you willing to continue to accept by leaving people defenseless - even when others could have stopped it but obeyed the rules.

I'm willing to accept the large reduction in CRIME. When you ask how many more deaths, it is the wrong question. Again, it is the death of whom? Paris would only have had about a dozen, San Bernadino even less, and almost none on the Campuses. Recidivism tends to be much lower.

Who are you going to send to take them? The police here are more pro-gun than Gun Owners of America. Consider the military with women, gays, and trans- in combat roles now, "Hi, I'm Debbie and I'm here to take your guns...". New York demanded registration. That was ignored more than the old 55mph speed limit.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/constitution/item/21381-va-backs-down-on-threat-to-take-idaho-veteran-s-guns

And "we will come for you" is right - not just defense but offense. Do they really want to go into rural areas where everyone hunts, most are enough of a prepper to not need the grid for weeks (which often runs from unreliable to nonexistent), and kick a hornet's nest that will likely cause a response where things go grid-down for those who think food comes from the grocery store? The grid is quite fragile and unprotected as it is. I suspect ISIS knows this too. Think of a modern day Sherman but where the blue states (or the blue pimples in the red states) are Atlanta and the South. Gun free zones are small soft targets. Big cities are big soft targets. Or maybe something even more in line with 4GW (Lind's handbook is the current must read here, everyone's already done Victoria). They can't even figure out how to fight a bunch of rag-tag Arabs. Are they going to suddenly learn when they try to do something in the western states? Texas is already talking about secession - oh and ubiquitous open carry happens there on January 1st. And I might be off (I'd be curious if Lind has an analysis if there is any way they could even try it without the government being brought down), but I don't think I'm exaggerating. Cold Anger (theconservativetreehouse.com describes Trump supporters as such) will just move slowly unless provoked, and confiscation would be very provocative.

Ask the people of Chechnya where the power pylons have been destroyed and they attack anyone trying to repair them.
Ask the people of the Ukraine once Putin shuts off the Natural Gas supply.

Sheep don't have fangs. But living in the blue state bunkers makes people forget that most Americans are NOT sheep and won't be defanged.

Blogger Hammerli280 December 09, 2015 2:26 PM  

Let me add a point. IF the Left really wanted a "compromise", they would identify an existing law or set of laws they were prepared to see repealed and replaced.

There has been no such offer. All firearm owners have been offered are terms of surrender. And we know, from the examples of the UK and Australia, where that leads. And have the votes to stop this cold.

Though this message does not seem to have gotten through to the courts clearly - were I a GOP leader, extension of the Civil Rights Act and Voting Rights Act to cover the Second Amendment would be a high priority.

Anonymous Discard December 09, 2015 2:29 PM  

Let's debate guns after we debate affirmative action.
Let's debate guns after we debate uncontrolled immigration.
Let's debate guns after we debate Al Gore's $200,000,000.
Let's debate guns after we debate the Clinton Foundation and it's donors.
Let's debate guns after we debate Joe Biden's son being on the board of the Ukrainian natural gas company.

If someone wants to talk about gun control, just bring up the reason we need them. Our rulers are monsters.

Blogger Mike Farnsworth December 09, 2015 2:30 PM  

@103 Brad

Are you looking for additive 3D printing, or negative CNC milling? Each has its benefits and drawbacks, including materials that can be used, etc.

Typically for lower receivers or the most difficult parts on rifles and pistols you need to carve out of at least 6061 aluminum, and that means CNC mills. For creating stocks, grips, and perhaps some other accessories you can use additive printing with non-metal materials.

CNC mills:

https://ghostgunner.net/ $1500-ish, prepped specifically for AR-15 lowers

http://www.pocketnc.com/ Still filling orders from kickstarter, not sure when it'll be available generally. It may not be suitable for lowers, but it looks promising.

http://www.carbide3d.com/ $1000 on up, general purpose, probably would do the job (but with some extra programming)

Additive printing:

http://3dprint.com/55890/buy-3d-printer-cheap/ A big list, they all seem to be around $2000

Blogger Brad Andrews December 09, 2015 2:32 PM  

@105 Buddy,

I want something I could use for other things as well. I am not sure that I would have much other use for a table router like that. Looks cool, but I don't plan on making wood displays much.

Anonymous ben December 09, 2015 2:36 PM  

What happens if your rule is enacted and therefore, as a result, people with these problems choose to not seek treatment for fear of restrictions.

That would certainly be a blessing. The treatments available do more harm than good. How many mass shootings were there before the prevalence of these drugs? Texas clock tower shooter was the first I know of, and he had a brain tumor.

Anonymous JI December 09, 2015 2:38 PM  

I remember acting as the informal mediator of a debate between a pro-gun guy and an anti-gun woman. The man pointed out that it seemed like gun crimes would go down with concealed carry made legal and the woman argued it wouldn't, and that the only way to reduce gun crime is to make guns illegal. I pointed out that we had plenty of statistics to look into and see what happened to gun crime before/after concealed carry was made legal, and we likewise had similar statistics from countries that basically outlawed various types of firearms, so we could simply look at the statistics to get an idea of the impact. The man was for this idea while the anti-gun lady was passionately against it, shaking her head and saying it doesn't matter what the crime statistics show, guns need to be outlawed. That's what it truly hit me that the gun issue is a fundamental dividing line between us and them, and if you find out where someone stands on guns then you basically know the worldview category they fall into. Vox nails this - there's nothing to discuss on this issue because it ends up being conservatives versus SJWs and there is simply no meeting ground.

Anonymous Bobby Farr December 09, 2015 2:40 PM  

When has any political controversy been decided through discussion in the manner he describes?

Blogger Cataline Sergius December 09, 2015 2:42 PM  

Ken White doesn't get it. The only kind of discussion they will be willing to have is the Pajama Boy kind.

A Liberal Fuck is not a Democrat, but rather someone who combines political data and theory, extreme leftist views and sarcasm to win any argument while make the opponents feel terrible about themselves. I won every argument but one.”


Yes, I've posted this before but its important to remember it. Winning an argument with these people is all about feelings.

They don't care about Aristotelian Logic. In fact they have openly rejected it.

They don't care about facts unless they can use them to give you the bad feelz.

Their entire political movement is now based on rejecting objective reality. There is no point in trying to discuss anything with a lunatic, so don't bother.

These howler monkeys in corduroy are now actually arguing that it is sexist to use chromosomes determine sex. They call it Cis-sexism.

Remember folks. Lysenkoism Is the New Black

If they are that crazy on some fairly basic science what chance do you have discussing gun rights with them.

Just start insulting them the moment they open their mouths. I always do.

Anonymous tz December 09, 2015 2:43 PM  

For real guns you need a CNC mill:

https://ghostgunner.net/index.html
http://survivalblog.com/odds-n-sods-592/

The local makerspace is getting one which is better, so I might tweak the code.

For a 3d "zip gun" look for "the liberator".

Anonymous tz December 09, 2015 2:48 PM  

Also remember they will be coming after ammo. A gun without bullets is useless. A gun with a limited supply will be and forces you to think about conserving.

They might try this as an end-run around the problem - I forget what kind was being bought up by the government.

Blogger Buddy E. December 09, 2015 2:52 PM  

@brad

uh a cnc mill is significantly more useful than just for wood displays. Think "pistol frame" or "ar15 lower". Meanwhile 3dp for guns is essential toy play. I mean we've come a long way from the Liberator, but in the end it's still plastic and plastic doesn't make real good guns. 3dp AR lowers work well enough though.

Blogger SciVo December 09, 2015 2:54 PM  

You guys don't just shift the Overton window -- you take it out back and shoot it, then melt down the glass shards and cast them into barbed heads for your arrows of rhetoric. And that's what I love about you. Don't ever change.

Blogger Quadko December 09, 2015 2:54 PM  

Since the recognized right to bear arms is the God-given from-birth right to reign in tyrannical governments:
• If they get bullet-proof vests, we get uranium tipped bullets
• If they get tanks, we get anti-tank weapons
• If they get aircraft, we get anti-aircraft guns
• If they get hardened bunkers, we get atomic bunker busters

And I do think every citizen should be able to effectively control any weapon they hold or stand before. Perhaps, similar to driver's licenses, we should certify every high school student in weapon safety and operations across a range from derringers to ballistic missiles before they are allowed to graduate?

So yes, you get to use the euphemism "gun control", and we get to define what it means. It's a compromise.

Blogger Buddy E. December 09, 2015 2:56 PM  

@tz we've come a long way from the political statement that the Liberator is: http://www.jamesrpatrick.com/p/pm522-washbear-3d-printed-22lr-pistol.html?m=1

In the end though, this stuff (3dp plastic firearms) is still very experimental and unreliable.

Anonymous old man in a villa December 09, 2015 2:57 PM  

Has Ken White ever written a post about the US government sending arms and ammunition to people living in other countries? Have we had a debate about that yet? I mean before, you know, we take them away from the people in this one.

Why are some guns- like the ones the government uses to enforce it's policies at home and abroad or gives to other people trying to overthrow their democratically elected governments or sells to foreign armies with governments who aren't democratically elected- okay guns, but the ones the law abiding citizens of the US as provided by in the Constitution not okay? What's Ken take on that?

OpenID basementhomebrewer December 09, 2015 2:58 PM  

@ 116 Check out this sweet Horse

OpenID Jack Amok December 09, 2015 3:02 PM  

What would be the currently best 3-D printer to purchase, with the added benefit of helping in this case?

CNC mill for making guns, but for plastic 3d printers, I'd suggest either a Printrbot or a FlashForge. If you want to try printing in PolyCarbonate, you might consider a Bukobot, as their extruders can run hot enough (270c), and I'm not sure if the others can.

But you can get a good desktop 3d printer for well under $2k now.

Blogger Buddy E. December 09, 2015 3:03 PM  

@old man in a villa


Yea I've asked that question many times myself. What magically transforms a 'super dangerous scary black gun' into a 'safe' object just because it is in the hands of a government official. The amusing thing to me is, the same people that are arguing 'only cops should have guns' are the ones that are whinging about 'militarization of police'

Anonymous Yid Kid December 09, 2015 3:11 PM  

Vox, I agree with you. But I think Popehat is on to something, and I'm surprised you didn't see the pattern. Or maybe you did, and wanted to make a point. Which is fine. The offensive needs BOTH of you.

Did anybody notice that all Popehat proposed to do was listen. In exchange for... basically the opposite of one of those leftist diversity classes. We *know* that going to a gun range, taking a class, and firing guns converts people. We know that a lot of liberals also own guns, and will defend that right (part of the reason gun rights are winning and gaining ground, quite markedly among women lately).

And so Peopehat walks in, playing the reasonable card, and tells the Leftist enemy to put themselves in a form of conversion therapy in order to be listened to.

Anyone here seen that pattern before? Anyone? Bueller?

I think its hilarious. And perfect. All it needs... is someone like Vox to play "bad cop," so Popehat can say "Look, be reasonable, do what we ask, and maybe I'll be able to talk to my friends over here." Concrete action in exchange for maybe promises. That's fabulous, really classy. We need to win again. That's how you win.

The caveat, of course: Popehat has to not actually be a cuck. He has to know that coming up with coherent restrictions that aren't unreasonable infringements is just about impossible, and consciously set the trap. Which is why trust and - I'm going to use this word - solidarity are so important to build.

Blogger Were-Puppy December 09, 2015 3:15 PM  

@17 The One

Since Trump said his plan will only apply to non citizen Muslims, I'm willing to accept thousands of Muslim Americans deaths. What about the rest of the Ilk?
---

I think Thanos would approve of this message. There is a large inbalance of muslim deaths vs everybody else deaths.

Blogger Were-Puppy December 09, 2015 3:23 PM  

I want a National Conversation about National Conversations.

Any time these clowns start jabbering about a conversation, they are either trying out a new trial baloon or seeing if you've forgotten the last time they tried the same crap.

Blogger pyrrhus December 09, 2015 3:26 PM  

@68 I'll take the bacon and Glenlivet please!

Anonymous The One December 09, 2015 3:28 PM  

@101

There are industrial 3d metal printers that are slowly coming down in price for the common consumer. I would consider waiting a a year or two and then looking at purchasing one of those.

Anonymous The One December 09, 2015 3:30 PM  

@Quadko 121

1.Start business.
2.Certify homeschool students
3.Profit

Blogger wrangler December 09, 2015 3:32 PM  

VD: Accept? Or commit? Either way, the answer is: as many as it takes

Best answer ever!

Blogger Dexter December 09, 2015 3:49 PM  

I want a National Conversation about National Conversations.

Any time these clowns start jabbering about a conversation, they are either trying out a new trial baloon or seeing if you've forgotten the last time they tried the same crap.


Translated from liberalspeak, "conversation" means "shut up while I lecture you and shame you".

Blogger Azimus December 09, 2015 3:51 PM  

Dexter December 09, 2015 3:49 PM
Translated from liberalspeak, "conversation" means "shut up while I lecture you and shame you".


Is there no reason why both sides of a conversation can't use this tactic?

Blogger White Knight Leo #0368 December 09, 2015 3:54 PM  

@90

The most reasonable proposal I've ever seen is that if you can't be trusted with a gun for any reason, then you need a chaperone.

Blogger Dexter December 09, 2015 3:58 PM  

@135,

What, you think SJWs believe in reciprocity and everyone playing by the same rules?

Blogger Doktor Jeep December 09, 2015 4:06 PM  

Oh oh.
I guess I was too mean to him on Twitter over this. But yeah, since the antis are invoking England and Australia, there is no more debate. We have guns because we can, and we don't need acceptance from leftoids on this.

Notably, everything is infected with a kind of "acceptance culture". It's all about being accepted and social media has made it worse. It's now unwritten law that if people don't like what you do, you therefore cannot do it. I think the GLBT community started this. They could not just be gay or something in their own lives in their own time. Or maybe the leftoids used the GLBTs to this end, to make everything have to stand up to unwritten, unregulated, un-voted on, unnatural scrutiny.

We have guns because we can. Period. No more "but criminals!" or "but muh hunting!". Bullshit. Real liberty does not require permission or acceptance.

Anonymous That Would Be Telling December 09, 2015 4:09 PM  

@90: VD:

I'm willing to accept... no, that's not right... I would like to enforce restrictions on firearm possession for individuals who take drugs in order to treat emotional disorders such as anxiety or depression.

No. No compromises. Lock the crazy fuckers up. The drugs don't work anyhow.


I seem to remember you saying something about not shooting at your own side.

You are exactly the sort of person I've bought guns to defend myself and my family from.

Anonymous BGS December 09, 2015 4:12 PM  

99-DadofTen- You have other PA gay gun grabbing mayors that made national news like this guy:
Mayor James Schiliro of Marcus Hook, Pennsylvania http://politicalhotwire.com/current-events/84792-bloombergs-boy-liberal-mayor-demands-gay-sex-gunpoint.html

OpenID dreadilkzee December 09, 2015 4:20 PM  

I don't know discussion could be good. I would have question / stipulation for the gun-control lobby: "would you admit that you may be wrong about the impact of guns on society?"

Well Ok 2 questions: "If gun-control is desirable than would you agree the military and federal government must also be bound to the same law regarding gun control? IE there is no exception between civilian and government. There is one law applied to people with no restrictions based on occupation or relationship."

Blogger JartStar December 09, 2015 4:33 PM  

The request for a reasonable debate or conversation shows the left is working from a position of weakness. If they had strength they'd just enact their legislation and then tell the conservatives they are awful for not supporting it.

Blogger Quadko December 09, 2015 4:34 PM  

@131 The One Certify Homeschool Students
Oooh, a business plan I like!

Blogger Dire Badger December 09, 2015 4:37 PM  

One cannot compromise with leftists. Any compromise, no matter how small, is complete surrender.

Anonymous Dan December 09, 2015 4:42 PM  

VD wrote,

"I'm willing to accept... no, that's not right... I would like to enforce restrictions on firearm possession for individuals who take drugs in order to treat emotional disorders such as anxiety or depression.
No. No compromises. Lock the crazy fuckers up. The drugs don't work anyhow."

#138 responded,

"I seem to remember you saying something about not shooting at your own side.
You are exactly the sort of person I've bought guns to defend myself and my family from."

This exchange shows exactly why the 2nd amendment protects everyone's liberty. Everyone can tell everyone else to shove it.

OpenID Jack Amok December 09, 2015 4:48 PM  

There are industrial 3d metal printers that are slowly coming down in price for the common consumer. I would consider waiting a a year or two and then looking at purchasing one of those.

Laser sintering (the metal equivalent of additive 3D printers) give you a product an order of magnitude (or worse) weaker than a cast product. If you have some really fancy alloys and do secondary sintering (rather slow process) and post-process annealing (very hot furnace needed), you might get half the strength at best. But that requires high-end industrial sintering machines and an industrial facility - it's not the sort of thing you're going to do in a small home workshop.

I really wouldn't want to fire a gun with a chamber made with additive manufacturing. Certainly not more than once...

But, casting... well, using a 3d plastic printer to make a model and then using a "lost-plastic" casting method and clean-up, that might be pretty good.

Anonymous Yid Kid December 09, 2015 4:50 PM  

John Wright @67. So, if we're going to burn Leftists at the stake, does fidelity to the Pope now require that we purchase carbon offsets first?

Anonymous Frank Brady December 09, 2015 5:02 PM  

@VD, you wrote "No. No compromises. Lock the crazy fuckers up. The drugs don't work anyhow."

Exactly so. The political establishment is 100% responsible for the violence with which we are now confronted. The Great Society destroyed the black family and fatherless young blacks subsequently turned the inner-cities into killing zones.

Throughout the 1970s, mental health care reform demanded by Liberals emptied out the state mental hospitals and made it much more difficult to have dangerous mental patients involuntarily committed for treatment. Then, in 1987, the “anti-depressant” PROZAC was approved and widely prescribed followed by ZOLOFT, PAXIL and other SSRI drugs. Known side effects include suicide ideation and violent behavior. Virtually all of the mass killers from 1980 on were taking one or more of these drugs.

Blogger Nate December 09, 2015 5:10 PM  

"How many American deaths are you willing to accept to permit gun ownership?"

All of them.

Blogger Chris Mallory December 09, 2015 5:10 PM  

@87,

Right, because we have never seen governments declare someone crazy then forcibly medicate them.

"SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED" means what it says.

Blogger Buddy E. December 09, 2015 5:11 PM  

@Jack Amok yea, DLMS is also extremely expensive too. Most of those machines are in the 5-6 figure range.

We've done some experimenting at FOSSCAD with lost cast PLA lowers and it's worked pretty well, but finding the right resin has been somewhat more challenging than one might think.

Realistically 3DP of a barrel/chamber is impractical with ANY of the current technologies, even DLMS. We've done it with 22LR, but that's about the extent of what I'd consider ANYWHERE near 'safe' (and even that's debatable).

Anonymous Slowpoke December 09, 2015 5:16 PM  

As has been said elsewhere; Obama asked America to discuss guns and gun control over thanksgiving. America did, and then the next day bought enough guns for another marine Corp plus two army divisions. If course the gun banners want to talk, they're losing the actions.

Blogger VD December 09, 2015 5:17 PM  

I seem to remember you saying something about not shooting at your own side. You are exactly the sort of person I've bought guns to defend myself and my family from.

Then obviously we are not on the same side. And considering how intelligent I am, let's face it, you're doomed, guns or no guns, if someone exactly like me targets you.

Blogger VD December 09, 2015 5:19 PM  

Remember, the people who put the crazies in the mental institutions were mostly their families. They KNEW they were crazy. The government let them out. The government should not have the ability to lock people up in mental institutions, the parents should, with the approval of a family doctor and a local court.

Blogger Cloudswrest December 09, 2015 5:21 PM  

A friend of mine used to say, went anti's said he should "negotiate", "Okay, what gun laws are you willing to repeal in trade for this new gun law you want to pass." They were always taken aback by this request.

Blogger Marie December 09, 2015 5:22 PM  

"Throughout the 1970s, mental health care reform demanded by Liberals emptied out the state mental hospitals and made it much more difficult to have dangerous mental patients involuntarily committed for treatment. Then, in 1987, the “anti-depressant” PROZAC was approved and widely prescribed followed by ZOLOFT, PAXIL and other SSRI drugs. Known side effects include suicide ideation and violent behavior. Virtually all of the mass killers from 1980 on were taking one or more of these drugs."

I was a bit amazed how many times I heard a gun-grabber dismiss the need for better mental health care in response to the mass killings. It was one of the things that has convinced me the left is not acting in good faith.

Then I found out how many people close to me are on those very meds. I am close enough to most of them to know they made no visible changes to their diets or exercise program and made no attempt to pick up new hobbies. That is how most of us normally battle the blues and boredom. No wonder they don't want anyone looking closer at mental health care.

Anonymous kfg December 09, 2015 5:32 PM  

"I really wouldn't want to fire a gun with a chamber made with additive manufacturing. Certainly not more than once..."

As I have said in another venue, talk to me about 3D printing when you can print me a bicycle crankset with the same physical properties as a cold forged piece.

Blogger Tim_W_Burke December 09, 2015 5:32 PM  

There is an article in Rolling Stone with recent CDC gun violence stats that to me are unbelievable. I believe these stats are gamed, but have no eye for numbers. Could someone with some experience have a look?
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/1-15-million-americans-have-been-killed-by-guns-since-john-lennons-death-20151208

@115 Cataline, thank you for the distinction between loyal opposition and hysteric. I know democrats and liberals who are gun owners and advocates. I plan on going to a range and re-learning firearms.

Blogger John Wright December 09, 2015 5:36 PM  

"Do you think it's going to build a majority on any issue?"

If the majority of silent men with guns agrees, what does it matter what the majority of mean girls without guns says, or does, or thinks? They have votes only for so long as the men with guns say so.

Anonymous That Would Be Telling December 09, 2015 5:37 PM  

@152: VD:

I seem to remember you saying something about not shooting at your own side. You are exactly the sort of person I've bought guns to defend myself and my family from.

Then obviously we are not on the same side. And considering how intelligent I am, let's face it, you're doomed, guns or no guns, if someone exactly like me targets you.


This is truly funny, because based on the 1 IQ test I took in high school, and my SATs, taken back when they were worth a damn, I'm exactly as intelligent as you are, +3SD. The institution of higher learning I went to (which I can very quickly prove to you), and my STEM career, would suggest those tests weren't wrong. This is in fact one of the reasons I hang around VP, I recognize and value intellects of our caliber.

But I grant you that if I'm targeted, I'm toast. That's true of anyone, our strength is in numbers, in that collectively we would prevail in any such contest, not that any particular one of us or our family would survive.

However, no matter how much you insist, I don't see how we aren't on the same side.

OpenID Jack Amok December 09, 2015 5:37 PM  

Throughout the 1970s, mental health care reform demanded by Liberals emptied out the state mental hospitals and made it much more difficult to have dangerous mental patients involuntarily committed for treatment.

And yet, most liberals will blame Ronald Reagan for putting the crazies on the street. As Marie said, "bad faith."

Blogger John Wright December 09, 2015 5:41 PM  

@84
"Is there anything worse that utilitarians? I mean, I think I'd take Calvinists over utilitarians."

Dear God, yes. At least Calvinists are foreordained to go to heaven. Utilitarians are damned to Hell provided the damnation of ten thousand utilitarians produces more good for the countless millions of fallen angels, such as by amusing them, than it takes from the utilitarians.

Greatest good for the greatest number, you know. The angels outnumber earthly beings by orders of magnitude, or so Aquinas deduces.

Anonymous kfg December 09, 2015 5:47 PM  

@157: That number comes from multiplying the CDC data for all firearms related deaths in 2013 by 35.

A third of those were homicides, which are half the number of suicides.

Blogger John Wright December 09, 2015 5:48 PM  

@105
"Hanging may be too good for them, but I'm not sure I really want to waste a perfectly good campfire burning a thug."

Hmm. Maybe we can have the people volunteer money and time to burning heretics. I am not sure if this counts as one of the corporal works of mercy, or if this is something reserved to the secular power.

All I say is, let us return to the monarchy if the monarchs are Ferdinand and Isabella, who oversaw the final battles of the Reconquest. I would say get El Cid, but I understand he refused the crown when offered.

OpenID Jack Amok December 09, 2015 5:50 PM  

We've done some experimenting at FOSSCAD with lost cast PLA lowers and it's worked pretty well, but finding the right resin has been somewhat more challenging than one might think.

I'd be curious to hear more. Have you blogged about it anywhere? I've been trying to do some lost casting with aluminum (not of lowers, just random test parts), but my home-made aluminum smelter isn't really getting hot enough.

Realistically 3DP of a barrel/chamber is impractical with ANY of the current technologies, even DLMS. We've done it with 22LR, but that's about the extent of what I'd consider ANYWHERE near 'safe' (and even that's debatable).

SpaceX used DLMS to build a rocket engine, and the specs I saw for it said it ran at pressures up to 1,000 psi. Chamber pressure for a .22LR is about 24,000 psi in a pistol, and 50,000+ psi in a rifle. A 7mm WSM will be over 65,000 psi.

So, yeah. A ways to go yet.

Blogger John Wright December 09, 2015 5:55 PM  

@113
"That's what it truly hit me that the gun issue is a fundamental dividing line between us and them, and if you find out where someone stands on guns then you basically know the worldview category they fall into. "

My fellow libertarian science fiction author (I was a libertarian at the time) R Neil Smith makes this point over and over again on his famous (among Second Amendment type Libertarians, that is) 'Lever Actions Essays'.

Anonymous ben December 09, 2015 5:56 PM  

... and my STEM career...

Kevin?

Blogger John Wright December 09, 2015 6:01 PM  

@134
""conversation" means "shut up while I lecture you and shame you". Is there no reason why both sides of a conversation can't use this tactic?"

Yes, sir. Indeed there is.

1.They cannot shut up. The sound of their own voice yammering is the sole thing drowning out their conscience. They must attack the innocent and can never cease.

2.They have no shame. They cannot be shamed: their whole political outlook is an attempt to insulate themselves from the conscience.

Anonymous That Would Be Telling December 09, 2015 6:03 PM  

@153: VD:

I find it difficult to agree with the proposition that anxiety and/or depression are indications that demand institutionalization as you claim, especially without the benefit of medicine. Bipolar disorder and schizophrenia, yes, the horrors of deinstitutionalization show that a fair amount of force is required towards those treatable by drugs, because their conditions even under treatment militate against them taking them as required (although I suppose they should be allowed to not take them as long as they're willing to be locked up).

If you don't believe any of these drugs work, well, you don't live in the same reality I or my mother do, early in her nursing career she incidentally witnessed the before and after miracles that the first generation of anti-psychotics can work.

As far as depression goes, yes, there are drugs that work to significant degrees for many people; I guess you don't know any families with genetic, multi-generation depression showing up now and again? For anxiety, we're generally out of luck except for very short periods of treatment. But at least these not so overpowering conditions allow for self-discipline and the like to help manage them, or relatively simple and I say obvious measures like cognitive psychology (in short, the thesis is that if you think bad, especially incorrect, thoughts about yourself, you can make yourself depressed).

Blogger Buddy E. December 09, 2015 6:06 PM  

@Jack Amok

Scroll through the twitter feed, some of the tests are down a month or two ago, but in there somewhere:

https://twitter.com/fosscad

Also:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjrnAktxAh14I7JvQ27ow7g

There is an irc chat link on the fosscad website if you want to dig further.

Bottom line is, IMO, the ability of 'gun laws' to be usefully enforced are coming to an end. The tech is a good ways off from doing this crap 'for real' but its only a matter of time. People have been building guns from pipes for several centuries, this isn't rocket science. There is no compromise. The left is losing. Why would anyone compromise?

And yes, you do have people experimenting with printed ammo ;-)

Blogger John Wright December 09, 2015 6:08 PM  

@146

"John Wright @67. So, if we're going to burn Leftists at the stake, does fidelity to the Pope now require that we purchase carbon offsets first?"

Hmmm. I believe the Pope said nothing the smallest jot different from what ever Pope since Peter said, they we Christians have to be good stewards of the planet. If news reported otherwise, you are gullible for having believed them. On the other hand, the personal opinions of the man serving as the vicar of Christ do not really concern me, only his official pronouncements as my pastor, leader, and Supreme Dark Lord to whom I am fanatically devoted.

I suggest, as a compromise, that the gungrabbers and heretics, after burning, be turned over to our resident radical mulch master, David the Good, for recycling.

After all, their bodies cannot be buried in sanctified ground to await the Resurrection, can they?

Anonymous Ain December 09, 2015 6:09 PM  

"But we don't change minds. Take a look at the discussion of guns on your Facebook feed right now. Do you think it's going to build a majority on any issue?"

There is a solid majority. It just happens to not agree with him, so it doesn't count in his mind.

Anonymous That Would Be Telling December 09, 2015 6:10 PM  

@166:

... and my STEM career...

Kevin?


No.

I only mention it this one time as one of four mutually reinforcing external measurements that say I'm as intelligent as our host.

Anonymous jack.amok@yahoo.com December 09, 2015 6:27 PM  

Thanks Buddy, I'll have to pay more attention to FOSSCAD. Looks like some cool work going on.

People have been building guns from pipes for several centuries, this isn't rocket science.

Yep, but I figure the average gun-grabbing liberal maxes out their technical ability putting together an Ikea bookshelf, so they probably imagine it's all magic and if a big corporation isn't allowed to make a gun for you, then you'll never be able to have a gun.

Blogger VD December 09, 2015 6:51 PM  

I find it difficult to agree with the proposition that anxiety and/or depression are indications that demand institutionalization as you claim, especially without the benefit of medicine.

How did you get from "crazy fucks" to "anxiety"? I'm genuinely curious.

I don't see how we aren't on the same side.

Really? "You are exactly the sort of person I've bought guns to defend myself and my family from."

I'm as intelligent as our host.

See above.

Blogger Unknown December 09, 2015 6:53 PM  

@146 yid kid, the Pope seems to be leftist, so we could resolve the carbon credit dilemma by burning him first?

Blogger Unknown December 09, 2015 7:02 PM  

Calls for gun control are calls for civil war. Libtards can yammer or legislate all they want, but we can veto their efforts by not complying, as folks are doing in New York and Connecticut.

How many deaths would we accept to keep our freedom? All the liberals, for a start. If they come for our guns, we come for them.

There is nothing to talk about except repeal of the existing, unconstitutional laws. No law governing weapons can be constitutional: ''...shall not be infringed.'' leaves nothing to talk about.

Blogger Azimus December 09, 2015 7:07 PM  

167. John Wright December 09, 2015 6:01 PM
1.They cannot shut up. The sound of their own voice yammering is the sole thing drowning out their conscience. They must attack the innocent and can never cease.

2.They have no shame. They cannot be shamed: their whole political outlook is an attempt to insulate themselves from the conscience.


I hate your answer, but it is true. I hate this whole thread, but it's correct. This is the reason I stopped watching "debates" long ago.

Blogger Buddy E. December 09, 2015 7:09 PM  

@Jack Amok

And therein lies the problem: These people are completely ignorant about firearms, and they wish to remain so by making them disappear. Sticking their heads in the sand makes them go away, doncha know!

I mean like the absurdity around wanting to ban 'assault rifles'. More people in the US are literally killed with fists/hammers/bats than ALL rifles combined, much less scary black 'assault rifles'. The 1994 AWB was a complete failure, as has the one in CA and NY been. Criminals, by definition, do not CARE what sort of silly little laws you come up with.

And another thing, really: if proggies are objectively that ignorant on the subject in the first place, why would anyone ever assume their ability to discuss it with any level of competence in order to 'compromise'?

I might as well hire someone with a sociology degree to do rocket design. The entire idea of 'compromise' with an ignorant fool is an exercise in futility.

Anonymous ben December 09, 2015 7:15 PM  

TWBT: I'm glad you are happy for the miracle of meds and all, and am open to maybe not locking up those who cannot live without them, but if you are on meds, locked up or not, no guns for you. I won't negotiate on that point. It's for the children so you lose if you have a different opinion.

Anonymous That Would Be Telling December 09, 2015 7:22 PM  

174: VD:

I find it difficult to agree with the proposition that anxiety and/or depression are indications that demand institutionalization as you claim, especially without the benefit of medicine.

How did you get from "crazy fucks" to "anxiety"? I'm genuinely curious.


You yourself @89:

I'm willing to accept... no, that's not right... I would like to enforce restrictions on firearm possession for individuals who take drugs in order to treat emotional disorders such as anxiety or depression.

No. No compromises. Lock the crazy fuckers up. The drugs don't work anyhow.


Medicated "emotional disorders" like anxiety straight to "Lock the crazy fuckers up."

I don't see how we aren't on the same side.

Really? "You are exactly the sort of person I've bought guns to defend myself and my family from."


You don't see the alternative possibility that I, too, am the sort of person I've bought guns to defend myself and my family against...? I'm not a nice person. I seem to recall you saying something to the effect about yourself a time or two.

"Sort of person" is, at least to us non-SJW types, not equivalent to defining who's on which side, and most certainly who I want to be on my side (albeit it helps that we're 7,000 miles apart :-). With the caveat that nature vs. nurture might define "sorts of people", but both of those "sorts" seem quite willing to employ force and so on. Even the SJWs have been caught in simple assault and battery.

Blogger SciVo December 09, 2015 7:40 PM  

Cloudswrest @154: A friend of mine used to say, went anti's said he should "negotiate", "Okay, what gun laws are you willing to repeal in trade for this new gun law you want to pass." They were always taken aback by this request.

That's awesome. I'm pocketing that one for later.

Anonymous That Would Be Telling December 09, 2015 7:51 PM  

@179: TWBT: I'm glad you are happy for the miracle of meds and all, and am open to maybe not locking up those who cannot live without them, but if you are on meds, locked up or not, no guns for you. I won't negotiate on that point.

I refer you to our hosts' words in the OP: "Come for them and we'll come for you."

It's for the children so you lose if you have a different opinion.

Ah, well, that changes everything. Never mind.

As a side note, the government (state and Federal) attempted to take away my concealed carry license on this basis. It was nothing personal, just an attempt to merge a couple of databases, where the legislators sure thought they outlawed the state supplying the list of CCW holders to others (governor and AG are Dems at the moment). The Republican (whisper it) legislature was not amused, and completely revised the administration of the state's licenses, making such further abuse attempts white line felonies with plenty of case law to back that up. It's taken a decade, but these anything but useless Republicans have given us just about everything we could want short of Constitutional Carry and carry in quasi-gun free zones like colleges etc. (weasel word because it's legal to do so in most enumerated types of gun free zones unless and until you're asked to leave), and a cheaper administrative process (then again, the service we get in my country is all but white glove first class, I assume in part because they're handsomely paid for it, but I'm sure it helps that they're on our side, and have had to, in the decade it's been in operation, to revoke less than a handful, and suspend only a dozen. "You aren't the sort of person I'm worried about carrying a gun" the deputy said in one of my recent renewals.)

Not that our Missouri Plan nominated judges give a damn about white line law, they have, for example, judicially nullified our Castle Doctrine; one really needs to look at a reference that includes case law like Self Defense Laws of All 50 States (2nd Edition). Some amazing atrocities to be found in there, like the Kansas judiciary convicting someone for merely brandishing his firearm when it was acknowledged he would have been 100% justified in shooting, but was able to diffuse the situation with that credible threat. Since the legislators didn't conceive of such a tortured technicality when they drafted the law ... well, they fixed that real quick.

Blogger Randy December 09, 2015 8:08 PM  

The LawDog covered this quite well about 5 years ago at http://thelawdogfiles.blogspot.com/2010/09/ok-ill-play.html

Blogger SciVo December 09, 2015 8:09 PM  

I know a guy who is on a mild triple-action drug that enhances serotonin, epinephrine & norepinephrine, and he doesn't own any guns because it would be irresponsible. But here's the thing: because of excitability, it would be even more irresponsible for him to own guns if he weren't taking it. And I think it helped him calm down and move past gamma.

So there's that.

Anonymous That Would Be Telling December 09, 2015 8:28 PM  

@183: SciVo:

What should you do if your mental health professional strongly encourages you to buy a gun?

Special circumstances: this was right after Obama's election, that day the front page of the local rag had an interview with the area's biggest gun dealer about how stock was flying off the shelves, and to make this completely perfect, right after that appointment I was headed to that very gun shop to pick up an evil assault rifle I'd scored on Gunbroker.com and had shipped to there.

Who was I to argue with a professional's considered opinion?

(Seriously, I am not making this up. And, yes, there are parts of America that are still like this, where the police go on the record in unequivocal words supporting the use of lethal force against home invaders after incidents, where since I've returned no one has been crucified for legitimate self-defense.)

Blogger Were-Puppy December 09, 2015 8:43 PM  

I always blame Jimmy Carter for the huge amount of urban outdoorsmen that are hiding from the government so they don't put a chip with the mark of the beast in their brains.

All this talk about the no-fly lists makes me wonder if we still locked up these crazies in institutions. The Obama administration would probably be trying to weaponize them to push for more gun control.

Blogger Were-Puppy December 09, 2015 8:47 PM  

Another favorite the lefties like to use - "It's the settled law of the land". How many times have we heard that one for Obamacare, abortion, etc.

Yet something in the very Bill of Rights itself, in their twisted minds, is to be endlessly debated until they can do away with it. If anything should be the settled law of the land, it should be the bill of rights.

Anonymous kfg December 09, 2015 8:50 PM  

"People have been building guns from pipes for several centuries . . ."

They've been coming after guns for a long time, but they started coming after mine circa 1968, which is when I started pointing out the a gun is nothing but a tube. How in hell do you expect to outlaw tubes?

I can go to Home Depot and get everything I need to make a single shot musket in an afternoon. And if I know I have a single shot, I'll take extra care to make sure it gives you a .50 caliber third eye.

"And yes, you do have people experimenting with printed ammo . . ."

If you have a hammer . . .

Anonymous That Would Be Telling December 09, 2015 9:08 PM  

@179: TWBT: I'm glad you are happy for the miracle of meds and all, and am open to maybe not locking up those who cannot live without them, but if you are on meds, locked up or not, no guns for you. I won't negotiate on that point.

I refer you to our host's words in the OP: "Come for them and we'll come for you." Surely you don't want "crazy" people coming for you....

It's for the children so you lose if you have a different opinion.

Ah, that changes everything! Never mind....

As a side note, the government (state and Federal) attempted to take away my concealed carry license on this basis. It was nothing personal, just an attempt to merge a couple of databases, state and Federal, where the legislators sure thought they'd outlawed the state supplying the list of CCW holders to others; pity the governor and AG are anti-gun Dems at the moment. But the (whisper it) Republican legislature was not amused, and completely revised the administration of the state's licensing, making such further abuse attempts white line felonies with plenty of case law to back that up by virtue of only leaving one state database, the one police use in real time to look up info on specific individuals.

Not that our Missouri Plan nominated judges give a damn about white line law, they have, for example, judicially nullified our Castle Doctrine; one really needs to look at a reference that includes case law like Self Defense Laws of All 50 States. Some amazing atrocities can be found in there, like the Kansas judiciary convicting someone for only brandishing his firearm when it was acknowledged he would have been 100% justified in shooting. Since the legislators didn't conceive of such a tortured technicality when they drafted the law, they fixed that real quick. (But we really need to have our legislatures start impeaching such judges, the founders were most suspicious of that branch and they are treated with respect they don't deserve---of course, because they so often do the Left's bidding without forcing the elected politicians to take the heat.)

It's taken a decade, but these anything but useless (whisper it) state Republicans have given us just about everything we could want short of Constitutional Carry and carry in current quasi-gun free zones like colleges (weasel wording because it's legal to do so in most enumerated types of gun free zones unless and until you're asked to leave).

Anonymous tz December 09, 2015 9:22 PM  

Of course you can have a reasonable debate, provided you have the right moderator.

Lefty: What about common sense things like banning guns in places like this?
Me: Then this becomes a kill zone.
Moderator: Allah Akbar! (pulls gun).
Me: (pulls gun too) Feel free to use whatever method you wish to convince my opponent of his folly, meanwhile I will back out toward the door...
Lefty: But I don't have a gun! I can't defend myself!
Me: You have a phone, you might be able to hit 911 before...
(bang!)
Me" well, maybe not. I guess the debate has ended. Have a nice day, can I suggest you retreat to https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xlf1/v/t1.0-9/12347781_10153644115865239_3660423864698321042_n.jpg?oh=cf1ff861ff0c9ac7df82974e5c8be334&oe=56DDCC43 (h/t wygo), as I carefully exit.

Oh, and I have to reread the similar "university lecture hall" scene in Victoria.

(Actually it is a bit more problematic here, http://www.nwctrail.com/2420/opinion/do-students-have-the-right-to-know/ but NWC is redeemable - I suspect many "forget" to not CCW, especially after San Bernadino)

Anonymous tz December 09, 2015 9:29 PM  

@JCW After all, their bodies cannot be buried in sanctified ground to await the Resurrection, can they?

1. Why sanctified ground.
2. Why burn them first, we can cover them "live, via satellite".
3. Incarcerating such a source of hot CO2 emissions should in itself be good for both a carbon credit and a plenary indulgence.

Anonymous Mr. Rational December 09, 2015 9:33 PM  

@117 Also remember they will be coming after ammo. A gun without bullets is useless.

How hard is it to make a gun that doesn't need conventional ammo?  For instance, firing ball bearings using alcohol and air?  A gun that runs on steel balls and isopropanol would be hard to shut down.

For battle rifles, just take over the government armories to get more of everything.  There will be plenty of chances for inside jobs.

@146 if we're going to burn Leftists at the stake, does fidelity to the Pope now require that we purchase carbon offsets first?

Silly, what you do is suspend them from the receiver towers at Ivanpah over silicon carbide catch-bowls and then turn the mirror arrays on them.  After 30 minutes, lower and dump the catch bowls and get ready to send up a new bunch of clean, solar-powered live crematees.  Why should birds get all the fun?

@175 The Spanish Inquisition is precedent for that.  As one of the leaders of the whole genocide of Europeans, he deserves it.  I'd say the smaller fry like bought-and-paid-for pols deserve hanging, and the random functionaries can be allowed mercy like firing squads.

Anonymous Mr. Rational December 09, 2015 9:35 PM  

... TF?  Censored?

@117 Also remember they will be coming after ammo. A gun without bullets is useless.

How hard is it to make a gun that doesn't need conventional ammo?  For instance, firing ball bearings using alcohol and air?  A gun that runs on steel balls and isopropanol would be hard to shut down.

For battle rifles, just take over the government armories to get more of everything.  There will be plenty of chances for inside jobs.

@146 if we're going to burn Leftists at the stake, does fidelity to the Pope now require that we purchase carbon offsets first?

Silly, what you do is suspend them from the receiver towers at Ivanpah over silicon carbide catch-bowls and then turn the mirror arrays on them.  After 30 minutes, lower and dump the catch bowls and get ready to send up a new bunch of clean, solar-powered live crematees.  Why should birds get all the fun?

@175 The Spanish Inquisition is precedent for that.  As one of the leaders of the whole genocide of Europeans, he deserves it.  I'd say the smaller fry like bought-and-paid-for pols deserve hanging, and the random functionaries can be allowed mercy like firing squads.

Anonymous tz December 09, 2015 9:40 PM  

@163 Aquinas has a contradiction in that he asserts the most or greater true/good/beauty has a greater population but Mary (Mother of God, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee - I can't resist, the adoration chapel here opened yesterday), queen of those very Angels is sui generous.

The correct approach to Utilitarians and the demons is to consider the Gospels, especially the Gadarene swine. And that possession is 9/10ths of the law and where there is not option to exorcise.

Yet that is a problem (see Tom Woods who is Catholic, also Lew Rockwell) where eternity wreaks havoc with Austrian economics marginal utility, time preference (which becomes eternal preference), and such.

Anonymous tz December 09, 2015 9:46 PM  

Productive debate technique #2, similar to trying to drown "alleged" witches:

Lefty: I have a brain
Me: I can see a light at the end of the tunnel, oh, it is your far ear canal.
Lefty: ug.
Me. How about I shoot directly into one ear aiming at the exit point of the ear canal at the other side, it should meet no resistance if you have a brain.
Lefty: But if I have a brain, it will shred it!
Me: And I will then acknowledge you have been proven right.

Anonymous kfg December 09, 2015 9:49 PM  

"How hard is it to make a gun that doesn't need conventional ammo?"

Not very. In fact, you can buy them, at least if you don't live in New Jersey, mail order.

Although I would point out that casting lead ball is medieval technology that you can do on the patio with a hibachi (lead melts at 600F, a hibachi will go about 1000).

Anonymous tz December 09, 2015 9:52 PM  

@196 - 6W lasers can be had on Amazon, if you prefer a light weapon.

Solder has lead, I'm not sure of the ballistic properties.

So much chemistry, so little time.

Blogger rumpole5 December 09, 2015 9:53 PM  

What a foolish question. Stats clearly show that crime (and murder) rates are lower in areas where more people carry firearms.

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