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Sunday, December 20, 2015

Russia wins round two

That is The Saker's take on the 11th week of the Syrian-war-by-proxy being fought between Russia and the USA after the US pulls out 12 of its F-15s out of Turkey:
First, the downing of the Russian SU-24 is becoming a major liability. The Russians have immediately claimed that this was a carefully planned and cowardly ambush, but now top western experts agree. This is very embarrassing, and it could get much worse with the deciphering of the flight recorders of the SU-24 (which the Russians have found and brought to Moscow). The picture which emerges is this: not only was this a deliberate provocation, an ambush, but there is overwhelming evidence that the Turks used the information the Russians have provided to the USA about their planned sorties. The fact that the Americans gave that information to the Turks is bad enough, but the fact that the Turks then used that information to shoot down a Russian aircraft makes the US directly responsible. The USA is also responsible by the simple fact that there is no way the Turks could have set up this complex ambush without the USA knowing about it. Now, it is possible that some in the US military machine knew about it while others didn’t. This entire operation sounds to me like exactly the kind of goofball plan the CIA is famous for, so maybe Kerry at State or even Obama did not really “know” about it. Or they did and are now pretending like they did not. Whatever may be the case, the US is now obviously trying to “off-load” this latest screwup on Erdogan who himself is trying to off-load it on his Air Force chief. What is certain is that the plan failed, the Russians did not take the bait and did not retaliate militarily, and that now the political consequences of this disaster are starting to pile up. As for Erdogan, he wanted to come out of this as the Big Pasha, the tough man of the region, but he now looks like an irresponsible coward (Putin ridiculed how the Turks ran to NATO as soon as the Russian SU-24 was shot down when he said: ”they immediately ran to Brussels, shouting: “Help, we have been hurt.” Who is hurting you? Did we touch anybody there? No. They started covering themselves with NATO.”). Even the US and Europe are, reportedly, fed up and angry with him. As for the Russians, they seem to believe that he is a “Saakashvili v2” – a guy with whom there is nothing to discuss and whom the Kremlin considers as politically dead.

Second, look at Syria. Even under maximal pressure, the Russians did not yield or show signs of hesitation but did the exact opposite: they more than doubled their presence, brought in heavy artillery systems and even floated the idea of opening a 2nd major airport in Syria (this intention was later denied by Russian officials). For the Americans this meant something very simple: while the Russians are much weaker in Syria than the USA, they were clearly undeterred and were not only holding their ground, but digging in. In other words, they were ready for war.
This is a good sign for those of us who would prefer to see the war remain warm and by-proxy rather than hot and direct. Remember, unlike the Cold War, the role of the aggressor has now flipped, so whereas each US victory will tend to lead to more aggression, each setback will tend to lead to less.

Labels:

88 Comments:

Anonymous Wyrd December 20, 2015 3:03 PM  

Go, Ivan, go!

Blogger Markku December 20, 2015 3:20 PM  

I'm not at a point where I'm ready to trust Russia - we have some proverbs about that - but I cannot imagine what Russia could have done better in recent memory to regain that trust.

Now I just hope that they will stick to it until Turkey is down. Do not forgive, Putin, do not forget.

Blogger Salt December 20, 2015 3:21 PM  

That's high praise, Markku, coming from a Finn.

OpenID elijahrhodes December 20, 2015 3:25 PM  

Some of the comments over there are rather interesting. One guy is convinced that Putin and Obama are working together doing Israel's bidding to destroy Europe. Is there nothing that can't be blamed on the Jews?

Anonymous Wyrd December 20, 2015 3:30 PM  

Is there nothing that can't be blamed on the Jews?

Recently, I've been studying the mid-70s Israeli prog-rock band Atmosphera's sole album The Lady Of Shalot. They certainly didn't kill the prog-rock movement back then.

Blogger SciVo December 20, 2015 3:35 PM  

elijahrhodes @4:

It's quite amazing how powerful the Jews are, uniting our Muslim traitor-in-chief and Ivan the Shirtless against the hapless Huns.

That, or Europe is doing it to themselves.

Blogger Danby December 20, 2015 3:40 PM  

@2 Markku
I'm not at a point where I'm ready to trust Russia
Me too. But I trust Turkey even less.
At least I can trust Putin to act rationally in Russia's interest. That's more than I have come to expect from any Western leader.

Anonymous Joe Blowe December 20, 2015 3:42 PM  

while the Russians are much weaker in Syria than the USA, they were clearly undeterred and were not only holding their ground, but digging in.

Sounds like Judo, of which Putin is an expert. The only thing Obama is an expert at is smoking crack and smoking pole.

Is there nothing that can't be blamed on the Jews?

There is an old saying, "If the shoe fits wear it." Maybe the Jews were kicked out of every country in Europe, some multiple times over a millennia, for more reasons than just white racism.

Blogger sykes.1 December 20, 2015 3:55 PM  

Erdogan has been a disaster for Turkey. The Turks are mow in proxy wars with Iran, Iraq, Syria, Hezbollah and Russia. They have bad diplomatic relations with Israel, Egypt, Greece and the EU. Once promising trade relations with Russiavhave become embargos. Attacks on native and foreign Kurds have raised the possibility of a general uprising and civil war. Have I missed anything?

Blogger bob k. mando December 20, 2015 4:01 PM  

article
What is certain is that the plan failed, the Russians did not take the bait and did not retaliate militarily, and that now the political consequences of this disaster are starting to pile up.



this is a classic chess tactic, set up an attack but refuse to actualize it. let your opponent sweat, wondering when, how and if you're going to hit him.

at a minimum, force him to expend tempo/moves trying to extricate the threatened piece, only actualizing the threat just before he can make his escape.

or if you don't actually hit him THERE, then where ARE you planning to hit him? is there a mate threat?

and, once again, we also see that Obama has either created or permitted to arise a situation in which ... Putin appears to be the good guy.

strange, that.

Blogger Positive Dennis December 20, 2015 4:12 PM  

I would say I trust the Russians as it is likely I will move there until Medicare kicks in for me. The apartment I can buy there for 90K is amazing.

Blogger Timmy3 December 20, 2015 4:18 PM  

The longer Russia waits to respond, the next US and Turkey presidents will have a clean slate. Trump does sound chummy about Putin. I don't think Russia and the US are in position to wage a new war. Fighting ISIS is hard enough. Expansionist China and Russia, what are you gonna do?

OpenID denektenorsk December 20, 2015 4:55 PM  

Does anyone think that Turkey would have done this without the tacit support of the US?

Blogger Curtis December 20, 2015 4:57 PM  

Fighting ISIS is not hard enough. Crap, it was just a few days ago that the idiots went the the UN to sanction ISIS and its money. As if, see? We weren't arming and training them. Why, we went to the UN and put sanctions on ISIS! Everything that the USgov and NATO is doing now, is to pretend NOT being shown up by Putin. Like Bambi bombing ISIS oil tankers... after a 45 minute warning to flee tankers. US pilots are STILL returning with full loads because they can't get permission to unload, even with on sight in sight ISIS in the cross-hairs.

Get it through your heads, almost everything USgov and NATO tells you concerning Iraq, Syria, and ISIS, is a lie. And USgov/NATO policy on ISIS has NOT changed except for the ratcheting up of the BS propaganda. See? Look! We're doing something about ISIS!!! No they are not. And then there is the occasional to big to not see but, but it was a mistake, or we didn't do it, Russia did.

And make no mistake, this is all a PROXY WAR against Russia. From the Baltic to Ukraine, to the Arabian Sea. A war of resources. Since dial emergency 9-1-1.

Blogger Curtis December 20, 2015 5:00 PM  

In fact, how is possible that PNAC and The Pentagons New Map can spit in your eye, and people still call it dew?

Blogger Eric December 20, 2015 5:01 PM  

Does anyone think that Turkey would have done this without the tacit support of the US?

I do. There's no way the US establishment would go along with shooting down a Russian aircraft. Certainly we have an interest in cooperating with our NATO allies, so we probably gave them tracking information. But the US doesn't need these kinds of headaches, and everything I've read suggests the other NATO countries are pretty angry with the Turks.

Blogger synp December 20, 2015 5:01 PM  

The EU may be "fed up" with Erdogan, but now they need him. They are negotiating with Turkey for a simple deal: European money for Turkey keeping the Syrian refugees from proceeding to Europe, and additionally advancing talks for Turkey joining the EU.

I don't think the latter will actually happen, but it allows Erdogan to present a tangible achievement to his people.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother December 20, 2015 5:01 PM  

A war to control Russia via resources. We have more than enough.

Blogger Phillip George December 20, 2015 5:07 PM  

You don't have to trust Putin - you merely want to be able to predict him. A man acting in his Nation's interests can be lived along side of.

cf- a liberal SJW politician telling you "We/ America is not like that" trying to open borders to anyone is neither predictable nor safe.

The Vetting Process in detail:
1/ Have you ever cut anyone's head off. An: No I would never do that.
2/ Do you always tell the truth An: Yes, I always tell the truth unless it reflects badly on Islam or you are a stupid kafir.
3/ Do you intend to cut infidel heads off. An: No I have no current intention of cutting off infidel heads Inshallah.
4/ Welcome in. You are diverse and one of us now. A valuable potential small business owner who we need to protect from right wing radical extremist militant rayciss bigot xenophobes who discriminate against Syrians fleeing rights abuses because other extremists. Now go and improve Amerika you small business entrepreneurs.

Blogger Sheila4g December 20, 2015 5:11 PM  

I can't put into words how ironic I find it to be rooting for Putin and trust the Russian press more than the Americans. My journey from my childhood liberalism to evil conservatism was helped along quite a bit by visiting both sides of Berlin in 1981, and I first experienced adult American patriotism in Moscow a few years later.

Anonymous Shut up rabbit December 20, 2015 5:16 PM  

The way EU is going, it'll soon be shitty enough that Turkey joining won't seem like a ludicrously mad idea. How low the West has fallen.

Blogger praetorian December 20, 2015 5:18 PM  

Is there nothing that can't be blamed on the Jews

Black and white fallacy. Jews have plenty to answer for in white countries.

Blogger SciVo December 20, 2015 5:21 PM  

sykes.1 @9: Erdogan has been a disaster for Turkey. The Turks are mow in proxy wars with Iran, Iraq, Syria, Hezbollah and Russia. They have bad diplomatic relations with Israel, Egypt, Greece and the EU. Once promising trade relations with Russiavhave become embargos. Attacks on native and foreign Kurds have raised the possibility of a general uprising and civil war. Have I missed anything?

He also failed to notice the rise of Christian nationalism that meant firing on Russia could threaten his NATO membership. I can't blame him for that because even several Republican presidential candidates haven't caught the shift yet, but oh the consequences.

Anonymous Wyrd December 20, 2015 5:21 PM  

I can't put into words how ironic I find it to be rooting for Putin and trust the Russian press more than the Americans.

For me, there's nothing ironic about it except the fact the present-day Russia champions its orthodox Christian tradition while the my own USA disowns its Christian heritage at every turn. When I was a child, it was the exact opposite. I literally can't understand the swap. I knew from growing up in the 70s many of my countrymen were epicureans, but I never feared it was to this extent. God help us all.

Blogger Dago December 20, 2015 5:22 PM  

Eric,
Put downbrhe kool aid.

Blogger Alexandros December 20, 2015 5:24 PM  

It's not about trusting Russia:

It's about understanding that America has consistently come down on the side of Satan and Russia has consistently come down on the side of God since the fall of the Soviet Union.

That's all that one should need to know about the current situation.

In short, the United States is now the Evil Empire. Everything falls into place with this world view.

Blogger Markku December 20, 2015 5:41 PM  

For us, it IS about trusting Russia. We are going to have to treat SOME of the big players as our go-to guy. The one to make deals with, where they could screw us over if they wanted to, after we have become dependent on them. I'm not yet at a point where I would recommend handing Russia the keys to the kingdom. We have trusted them far too many times, and always gotten screwed. Will this time be different? Experience says no.

Blogger SciVo December 20, 2015 5:45 PM  

Phillip George @19: You don't have to trust Putin - you merely want to be able to predict him. A man acting in his Nation's interests can be lived along side of.

BINGO

Anonymous Wyrd December 20, 2015 5:47 PM  

Markku, be cool. If worse comes to worse via Russia, you'll have some fun posable Russians this winter.

Blogger SciVo December 20, 2015 5:52 PM  

Markku @27: For us, it IS about trusting Russia.

Well, sure, it's different as the small country living next to them. We're only metaphorically living next to them, and have lots of nukes. That's easier and why we find our leaders strange that act like it's 1980.

Anonymous Nxx December 20, 2015 6:21 PM  

In geopolitical terms when your country has a dissident region or ethnic group the Russians call it having a rock on your foot. It's the reason Putin wants Novorossiya to remain in Ukraine; it's the rock on the Ukrainian foot that blocks Ukraine from attacking Crimea.

Turkey has two rocks on its foot; the Kurds and the southern Cypriots. Having a rock on your foot, let alone two, fatally undermines any ambition to being a serious geopolitical player. This is something Erdogan will learn the hard way.

Anonymous Quartermaster December 20, 2015 6:36 PM  

@7
Neither the Donbas or Crimea were in Russia's interest. Both moves were stupid and have weakened them internationally and financially.

@11
If you like living under a regime that is run by criminals, then you'll love Russia.

@12
If the EU sanctions stay on, Russia won't have the money to fight the wars that Putin stupidly started on his neighbors, much less run his own government.

@13
Hard to say. Erdogan has been on his own path for several years. A good many of his moves have been really dumb.

@25
So tell us Dago, if Eric (@16) is so wrong, what is your opinion on the matter? The evidence favors Eric, so I'm interested in seeing what you supposedly know that makes Eric so wrong.

@26
I'd have to say that if Russia has come down on the side of God since the fall of the Soviet Union, then God is a rather strange fella. That is just as true under the shirtless wonder as it was under Yeltsin.

Blogger pyrrhus December 20, 2015 6:42 PM  

@32 If you like living under a regime run by criminals, best to stay in the USA or UK...Putin is at least a Russian patriot....

Blogger pyrrhus December 20, 2015 6:44 PM  

@32 In Syria, Russia is "doing the work that Americans won't do" to stop ISIS and save Christians....what's your plan?

Blogger Nate December 20, 2015 6:53 PM  

"I'd have to say that if Russia has come down on the side of God since the fall of the Soviet Union, then God is a rather strange fella."

and I'd say you're either not paying attention or you're just blind.

Blogger Danby December 20, 2015 6:55 PM  

@32 Quartermaster
Neither the Donbas or Crimea were in Russia's interest. Both moves were stupid and have weakened them internationally and financially.
Perhaps in the short term. Long term, they will suffer no actual fallout from grabbing Crimea. No one cares, except the Uko-Nazis. As for Donbas, ethnic Russians in Russia certainly think it was the right move, and that's Putin's audience. It also put an immediate halt to our maneuvering to encircle Russia. Where's the next Soros/State Dept funded "Color Revolution"?

If you like living under a regime that is run by criminals, then you'll love Russia.
Or, Goldman Sachs and the Uniparty. That works too.

If the EU sanctions stay on, Russia won't have the money to fight the wars that Putin stupidly started on his neighbors, much less run his own government.
the sanctions are actually not hurting Russia that much. They mostly concern integration with the Euro banking system, which is making them more independent of the Anglo-German controlled Euro banking system. Minor short-term pain for long term independence and control.
It's the low price of oil that's hurting them, which has literally nothing to do with Ukraine or sanctions. That can't go on forever, too many other people are being hurt by it, people who ultimately control the US government.

Hard to say. Erdogan has been on his own path for several years. A good many of his moves have been really dumb.
In terms of internal politics, they've usually been pretty good moves. Erdogan fails to see how other nations will recat, though, and that makes them stupid.

So tell us Dago, if Eric (@16) is so wrong, what is your opinion on the matter? The evidence favors Eric, so I'm interested in seeing what you supposedly know that makes Eric so wrong.
It's improbable that Turkey would shoot down a Russian jet without notifying NATO command. sure the US command says no, but they would either way, wouldn't they.

I'd have to say that if Russia has come down on the side of God since the fall of the Soviet Union, then God is a rather strange fella. That is just as true under the shirtless wonder as it was under Yeltsin.
It's not whether God is on their side. It's whether Russia is on God's side. At the least we can say that they are not actively fighting God, unlike some superpowers I could name.

Blogger David-093 December 20, 2015 7:12 PM  

"At the least we can say that they are not actively fighting God, unlike some superpowers I could name."

Our government and the "Northern Kingdom" half of America are actively fighting God. The "Southern Kingdom" half of America is still on His side and struggling to resist our godless, degenerate leadership.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother December 20, 2015 7:27 PM  

The Southerners are Judea? Join the Confederate Front of Judea!

Blogger Neanderserk December 20, 2015 7:29 PM  

Yeah, but these are the Cathedral provocations BEFORE the Great Depression 2.0's maiden crash. Nobody expects WWIII before the stockbrokers have taken their swan dive.

As Jim pointed out, its not the trustworthiness of individual Russians at issue, but the trustworthiness of Russia the state. The ideology of the state is the means by which it coordinates action. Under communism, very untrustworthy and bad. Under Christianity, very good.

That's how such a rapid transition in apparent Russian trustworthiness can occur.

The United States is not the United States; it's the Yankee Union. It's been holier than Jesus since 1865; that's 150 years of deferred divine judgment. Sic semper tyrannis.

Anonymous Frank Brady December 20, 2015 7:45 PM  

You've got stop watching Fox News.

Blogger Were-Puppy December 20, 2015 8:11 PM  

@24 Wyrd

I literally can't understand the swap.

---

Me either. It is surreal. But we do know Obamis is completely untrustable. And I can assume Putin is doing whatever he does in the interest of Russia. I can't say that in regard to Obamis.

Blogger rick December 20, 2015 8:18 PM  

Everyone,

Here is a supplemental article to help explain what may have happened.

It's an interview by Andrew Cockburn with Pierre Sprey.

(frenchy)

Blogger Were-Puppy December 20, 2015 8:24 PM  

@38 Stg58/Animal Mother

The Southerners are Judea? Join the Confederate Front of Judea!
---

NOOOOooooooooooo.........

Anonymous LurkingPuppy December 20, 2015 8:35 PM  

@24: For me, there's nothing ironic about it except the fact the present-day Russia champions its orthodox Christian tradition while the my own USA disowns its Christian heritage at every turn. When I was a child, it was the exact opposite. I literally can't understand the swap.

It seems simple to me. Everyone in Russia experienced communism and its consequences, so once the hard-core Soviets lost control, Russia turned completely away from communism. But over here, the Soviet agents who had taken control of the U.S. Department of State and the Democrat Party and U.S. academia and Hollywood never saw what communism was really like, so they stayed Soviet after the Soviet Union collapsed, and they're still continuing to propagate the old Soviet propaganda— and the KGB doesn't even have to keep paying them to do it!

Blogger SciVo December 20, 2015 9:06 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Anonymous KoranBurningFaggot December 20, 2015 9:07 PM  

bidding to destroy Europe. Is there nothing that can't be blamed on the Jews?

Prosperity, deflation, clean cheap water, sound money,& tight border security.

You don't have to trust Putin - you merely want to be able to predict him. A man acting in his Nation's interests can be lived along side of

I would rather have the leader of the KKK David Duke as a next door neighbor than any black family you could identify. The fact he has not been arrested this DOJ for having dead tranny crack hoes found on his lawn taken from Marian Barry's parties proves that Duke is a law abiding man. He also thinks gays are victims of jew brainwashing, so he would be a far better neighbor than the black Neurosurgeon that hit people with locks and stabbed a guy as a teen.

I'm not at a point where I'm ready to trust Russia. Me too. But I trust Turkey even less.

I would trust a skinhead before I would a snaggletooth tranny black crack whore.

The only thing Obama is an expert at is smoking crack and smoking pole.

Gay Chicago Reporter Kevin DuJan wrote about how Obama rented his backside out to old white men.

Russians did not take the bait and did not retaliate militarily, and that now the political

They destroyed a town full of Turks on the Syrian side of the border in response. Pussy and kid shielding doesn't work on Russians.

Blogger dienw December 20, 2015 9:27 PM  

32. Quartermaster
Neither the Donbas or Crimea were in Russia's interest.
Both moves were stupid and have weakened them
internationally and financially.


Russia has every interest in preserving its national
interests in regard to its sphere of influencce as hte Liberals used to say.

Just as we once had the Monroe Doctrine and should still have; Russia can have its de facto MOroe Doctrine.

If you like living under a regime that is run by criminals,then you'll love Russia.

The entire West is now run by not only the criminal class; it is either run by either the former Soviet Union's useful idiots whom you might call the junior varsity of the Communist party; or the leaders are former bureaucrats/members of the East German Communist party. Merkel is a former honeypot agent for the Stasi.

Putin stupidly started on his neighbors.

We started on his neighbors when Clinton attacked Serbia.

You know what, I'm just stopping here. You're either ignorant, a damned liar , or a gov't agent dropping by. You can only be this utterly ignorant if you have just gotten out of high school.

Anonymous KoranBurningFaggot December 20, 2015 9:40 PM  

Turns out the standards have really dropped for Special Forces, a homeless man Identified as competent.
http://dailycaller.com/2015/12/18/homeless-man-allegedly-lived-in-army-barracks-as-soldier-for-8-months/

I can buy or build, and personally fly an ultralight or a powered parachute with an empty weight of up to 253 pounds with no FAA paperwork or licensing whatsoever but the FAA will make public the data for people who get a 9oz drone license.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/johngoglia/2015/12/18/faa-finally-admits-names-and-home-addresses-in-drone-registry-will-be-publicly-available/

Blogger ray December 20, 2015 9:47 PM  

Story never did fly. TURKEY shoots down the jet of an armed empire to their north, because airspace infringement? It's not like the russkies buzzed the mosques in instanbul.

In the unlikely event it went like that, Turkey would apologize, give reasons, oops some knucklehead hit the wrong button. Instead they're pretending All Good. So something's off.

Blogger Curtis December 20, 2015 9:56 PM  

Putin's INTEREST was Russia's Black Sea Fleet, in Crimea, which is EXACTLY why USgov meddled and regime changed in Ukraine in an attempt to kick out Russia from Crimea and eliminate Russia's Black Sea Fleet.

Seriously??? Fer dumbocracy?

Ukraine and Syria, and other USNATO designs, go hand in hand.

Can you think of ANY reason why USgov/NATO would want to eliminate Russia's BSF? Any reason at all, in light of events today?

Turn off the damn tee-vee.

Democracy, to USgov/NATO means resource puppets. Nothing more. And while everyone has their eyes on ter-ists, they have their eyes on future resources. Trillions of it. All you need, is a map of Russia, E. & W. Europe, M.E., and Persia. And a inkling.

Blogger Curtis December 20, 2015 10:02 PM  

@27 Markku

For us, it IS about trusting Russia.

And you trust NATO? in light of it being repeatedly caught in lies and subterfuge?

Blogger JaimeInTexas December 20, 2015 10:08 PM  

Not on topic but ...

Miss Puerto Rico suspended after anti-Muslim tweets
http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/20/us/miss-puerto-rico-suspended/index.html

(snip)
Her Twitter page has since been taken down, and Velez has apologized.

CNN obtained a screen grab of the page, and among the messages she originally sent were: "Muslims use our constitution to terrorize USA & plant gas stations," "there's NO comparison between Jews, Christians & Muslims. Jews nor Christians have terrorizing agendas in their sacred books, and "all what Muslims have done is provided oil & terrorize this country & many others!!!!!!."
(snip)

Blogger Curtis December 20, 2015 10:08 PM  

@18 Stg58/Animal Mother

A war to control Russia via resources. We have more than enough.

Back up our Federal Reserve Notes with our own resources? Why, that is absurd! Snickers the banker down the corner.

Anonymous redsash December 20, 2015 10:20 PM  

Quartermaster, tell the truth! You're just upset because Putin banned gay parades.

Russian's have read and taken to heart Solzhenitsyn. They know Solzhenitsyn's peasant was correct when he said this has happened because we have forgotten God. Solzhenitsyn passed the torch to Putin, the torch carried by those who are entrusted to protect the Russian people and the Russian Church.

Stalin banned the Bible, but he forgot to ban Dostoevsky and Tolstoy.

Blogger Eric December 20, 2015 10:47 PM  

Story never did fly. TURKEY shoots down the jet of an armed empire to their north, because airspace infringement?

The airspace violation just made it legal. Turkey has been shipping guns and food to ethnic Turkmen in Syria. That was one of the groups Russia started bombing in an effort to prop up Assad. To Russia this is geopolitical, but to the Turks this is ethnic. They figured they can get away with downing a Russian bomber because of big brother NATO, and it seems like they have, for the most part. The Russians responded with a sustained campaign of bombing supply routes from Turkey to Syria, though, so it's not like the Turkmen are coming out ahead.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother December 21, 2015 12:49 AM  

Curtis, do you think FedGov cares enough about this country to conserve its resources?

Blogger ZhukovG December 21, 2015 1:06 AM  

@55. redsash

In fact Solzhenitsyn's “The Gulag Archipelago”, is part of the required study curriculum for Russian High School students.

Blogger ray December 21, 2015 1:10 AM  

#56 --


Ok. Makes sense. It's a lot of chess pieces for the old dooder to . . . lots of . . . which one is fighting who again?

I like how following Jesus takes the scheming and skulking out of things.

Anonymous Spartacus xxxxx December 21, 2015 1:23 AM  

@57. Stg58/Animal Mother

Curtis, do you think FedGov cares enough about this country to conserve its resources?

Here is a very different take on that and the environmental movement from 15 years ago, a bit before the 9/11 gambit- http://www.usagold.com/hall/hallfame2.html#anchor87655

We have fought a war and have lost it. The war that was fought was for financial hegemony through the issue of the reserve currency for the world. In essence making the US serve the role of banker to the world. The war was lost in 1968 and defeat conceded in 1971 and again in 1973... [Plaza Accords, advent of total paper.]

The fact that someone - somewhere - can settle over $100 billion dollars in unbalance "imbalance of payments" every year with gold, is what makes the dollar's value relatively stable... [Refers to settlement at the BIS. The difference between total global exports and total global imports is/was maybe $100B, so either $100B is shipped to Mars each year or there is a secret conspiratorial cabal of cigar smoking banksters in the back room.]

The terms for the end of the game were set, in part, in the early 80s. Since then, there had been a tremendous effort by the US government to stop use of American resources by American and foreign consumers. Major finds of gas, and particularly, oil were capped and not allowed to go into production. Forest lands were set aside from loggers. Gold mines were induced not to explore nor produce gold within the US. Why? So that when the end does come, the US will have cash traded commodities to sell - so that when the US can't buy on dollar credit anymore, it will have something to trade while the country is reindustrialized.

The US tried to play the technology card by assisting US tech companies in gaining investments, that was done by making them appear more attractive to investors through SEC and IRS accounting rules regarding ESOPs and merger accounting that lower the cash costs of top talent and make losses seem like earnings. But the "social adjustment" oriented school system produces mostly good salespeople and hamburger flippers... The only way to eliminate the disadvatage in education is to import as many tech pros as we can before they stop wanting to come here. If 10 million 30-35 year old techies can be imported over the next 5-10 years, the US may have a chance to survive as the major economy.

Blogger Markku December 21, 2015 2:25 AM  

And you trust NATO? in light of it being repeatedly caught in lies and subterfuge?

No, we are not members of NATO. It is unfortunately the case that interest in membership has increased, somewhat among the people and very much among the politicians. So far it has been essentially unthinkable, but after Russia's actions in Ukraine it has entered the realm of the thinkable.

Blogger Markku December 21, 2015 2:30 AM  

The airspace violation just made it legal.

The missiles were launched after the Russian bomber had left the airspace. I very much doubt it is legal to shoot down a plane as punishment after the fact.

Anonymous map December 21, 2015 2:50 AM  

@60.

Your argument makes no sense. The best way to conserve resources was not to import so many foreigners to begin with.

Furthermore, since the world economy operates on mercantilist principles, arde imbalances don;t matter because the US economy is the market of last resort for most of what the world creates.

OpenID sigbouncer December 21, 2015 2:54 AM  

America flaunted the fact that we secretly fought a proxy war against Russia in Afghanistan. Using the mujahadeen to bring down the Soviet Empire with American military weapons. This is a very dangerous area to be engaging in again with Russia for our country. Very dangerous (not to mention stupid).

Blogger Shimshon December 21, 2015 3:03 AM  

If Putin were to openly go to war against Turkey, they could then close the Bosphorous to Russian arms shipments, regardless of Nato getting involved. This was not big enough an attack to justify such a response. Putin is a cool cucumber with his eyes on the prize.

Blogger Eric December 21, 2015 4:56 AM  

The missiles were launched after the Russian bomber had left the airspace. I very much doubt it is legal to shoot down a plane as punishment after the fact.

My understanding is the missiles were launched when the Russian jet was in Turkish airspace. I think Putin would feel compelled to respond more forcefully under your scenario. Anyway the Turks are more believable here - the Russians claimed their bomber never entered Turkish airspace, something that clearly isn't true.

Anonymous The Kulak December 21, 2015 4:56 AM  

@ 65 Hi Shimshon, question for you: has there been much coverage of the Yemen war in the Israeli media? Has anyone made the connection yet between the Houthis killing Saudis by the bushel with brazen raids in SW KSA and old Tochka missiles Yemen probably bought from post-Soviet Ukraine in the 1990s and Sultan Erdogan suddenly deciding to at least pull out some of his troops from occupying northern Iraq with the Shi'as in Baghdad threatening to fight?

One more thing I'll say: the Israelis are way ahead of their neocon co-religionists in the U.S. when it comes to the way the world is headed. Bibi cut his deal with Putin back in September before the Russian air campaign started in Syria and Putin has upheld his end, tolerating two actual (as opposed to three made up for neocon consumption) Israeli air strikes inside Syria since the RuAF/S400s set up a Russian no fly zone over most of the country (where now even Uncle Sam isn't flying over N Syria, but the Germans, Brits and French are oddly enough).

The last IAF strike on Saturday that took out the Druze Hezbollah guy was from what I understand a stand off glide bomb or missile fired from the Golan Heights. It's only about 30-40 miles in to Damascus suburbs. So no challenging Vlad's S400s.

Anonymous The Kulak December 21, 2015 4:59 AM  

Eric @ 66 the SU-24 black box will tell the tale. I don't think SecState Kerry would've been so accomodating to the Russians last week in Moscow had he not known or been told some of the stuff that was about to come out straight from former DIA chief Lt. Gen. Michael T. Flynn and Sy Hersh about Big Zero turning a blind eye to the Sultan and Saudis backing of ISIS/Jabhat al Nusra aka Al-Qaeda in Syria: http://www.lrb.co.uk/v38/n01/seymour-m-hersh/military-to-military

Anonymous The Kulak December 21, 2015 5:03 AM  

To Quartermaster and all those talking about proxy war with the Russians and 1980s Afghanistan -- anybody realized yet Ivan and Vlad's 'friend [IRGC top commander] Qassem' [Soleimani] are bleeding the Saudi Kingdom to death in Yemen? Payback comes slowly with the Russians but the dish of revenge is served cold. I'd be thinking about that if I were a Turkish Army commander at their base outside Mosul and pondering how many Kornet ATGMs have been sent to Iraqi Shi'as in comparison to all the TOWs team FSA fanboys think won't be answered in kind. Occupying a part of Iraq while trying and failing to bleed the Syrian Army so they won't crush his proxies has got to be even stupider for Erdogan than wiping out $10 billion in tourism and agro-trade with Russia (which Shimshon's Israeli greenhouse owning countrymen and maybe the Egyptians and some Cypriots/Greeks will be happy to make up for this winter).

http://www.almasdarnews.com/article/21345/
Looks like the Houthis know exactly when the Blackwater and Saudi commanders are gonna be at a base before they hit it with a missile (good insider intel/infiltration)

Anonymous Ain December 21, 2015 5:14 AM  

Curtis: "Get it through your heads, almost everything USgov and NATO tells you concerning Iraq, Syria, and ISIS, is a lie."

You're preaching to the choir, here.

Blogger Akulkis December 21, 2015 6:26 AM  

"Merkel is a former honeypot agent for the Stasi."

She musta had to get them REEEEEEEEEEAAAAALLLLLLY drunk to even get them out of the bar....

Blogger Markku December 21, 2015 6:44 AM  

the Russians claimed their bomber never entered Turkish airspace

Initially yes, then they found from the data that it was indeed in Turkish airspace for a few seconds, but had already left it when the missiles were launched. They fessed up to the few seconds violation.

Blogger JaimeInTexas December 21, 2015 8:17 AM  

@71
When did Russia admit to the violation? What I have read was a conditional, that if there was a violation of Turke's airspace it would have been for less than 20 seconds.

Time for Greece to start shooting down Turkey's planes intruding Greek airspace.

Blogger Markku December 21, 2015 8:30 AM  

Can't recall, but I'll see if I can find it. I just remember making a mental note of it, because they practically never admit to the violations and this time they did. My first guess for where I read it would be Pravda English.

Blogger Shimshon December 21, 2015 8:52 AM  

@66 The Kulak, I only really pay attention to the English media here, and not much at that. Not much focus on Yemen except when things get widespread coverage. Most focus is on Lebanon and Syria, and local too.

Blogger Gaiseric December 21, 2015 10:25 AM  

It's not always that being "led" by a beta-male loser and a coward works out well for the people, but occasionally it does. Can you imagine if we had a neocon in the White House right now?

Blogger bob k. mando December 21, 2015 11:52 AM  

55. Eric December 20, 2015 10:47 PM
The airspace violation just made it legal.



considering that the Turkish aircraft entered Syrian airspace while firing their A-A missiles, this is a specious excuse at best.

and that's assuming that the Russians actually overflew that southern pointing 'finger' of Turk territory for all of ... < 20seconds.



65. Eric December 21, 2015 4:56 AM
My understanding is the missiles were launched when the Russian jet was in Turkish airspace.



you are one dumb fuck. look, all you have to do is OBSERVE the actions of the Turks, post shoot down.

1 - Turks shoot down Russ plane
2 - Russ make *NO* attacks on Turkish nationals ( not counting ethnics in Syria ) or intrusions into Turkish territory
3 - Erdogan goes running to NATO demanding that NATO help Turkey defend itself against a country which ... has done nothing to Turkey?

if you think Erdogan is playing this straight, you are one stupid fucking dhimmi.

so everyone can see the "egregious" violation of Turkish airspace, the Russ loiter pattern was over Bidama with attack runs being made towards Kepir.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Kepir,+Latakia+Governorate,+Syria/Bidama,+Syria/@35.7901462,35.8402797,10z/data=!4m13!4m12!1m5!1m1!1s0x152425fac956548f:0xc1912fb7fb70a901!2m2!1d36.0118448!2d35.8298859!1m5!1m1!1s0x152436e1c7c5e089:0x159edc53615f33d!2m2!1d36.2020473!2d35.8115637

this is how a straight line flight could POSSIBLY violate Turkish airspace.

Blogger Cogitans Iuvenis December 21, 2015 1:34 PM  

@39

Well mentioning deferred divine judgement, whose to say the result of the civil wasn't the Lord meting out judgement to the south when they lost the war?

In either case, God isn't going to mete out deferred judgement. What God did was establish the framework on how things work. You do things according to the proper way and you will get the desired the results. Go against the framework and you get the opposite. That is why the Confederacy lost, it is why the USSR lost and it is why the United States flounders now.

Blogger Eric December 21, 2015 1:52 PM  

Initially yes, then they found from the data that it was indeed in Turkish airspace for a few seconds, but had already left it when the missiles were launched. They fessed up to the few seconds violation.

Seventeen seconds, yeah. I still think we would have seen a more muscular response from the Russians if the launch didn't happen in Turkey, though, as the Turks claim. Or maybe we will - the systems the Russians moved into Syria reach into Turkish airspace. If the Russians feel sufficiently aggrieved they may shoot something down and then claim it was an accident.

Blogger Eric December 21, 2015 1:55 PM  

Bob,

The Russians flew warplanes into Turkish airspace. That's enough that the Turks were within their rights to shoot them down, though it was kind of a dick move. Let's not forget the Russians once shot down a Korean airliner for staying into their airspace.

Anonymous Takin' a Look December 21, 2015 3:21 PM  

The amount of Cuck legalese hand-wringing in this thread is disgusting.

Russia shot up ISIS, Erdogan retaliated. Ergo, Erdogan is working with ISIS.

Blogger bob k. mando December 21, 2015 3:37 PM  

'kind of' a dick move?

when the Turk planes likewise violated Syrian airspace ( according to your criteria, an act of war ) in order to shoot down the Russ planes?

and when they're all there, nominally, to fight ISIL?

that's not a dick move. that's an attempt to start a war.

that's the problem with empires. the vassal states who claim 'protection' from them are liable to get a bit too frisky and instigate a "Let's you and him fight" scenario with another major power because the vassal state perceives itself as not having much to lose and lots to gain.



79. Eric December 21, 2015 1:55 PM
Let's not forget the Russians once shot down a Korean airliner for staying into their airspace.


*facepalm*

a - that was the USSR
b - the US intelligence agencies have a long history of pulling exactly that kind of stunt with 'civvy' craft ... although the use of a major airliner would surprise me
c - the US shot down an innocent civilian airliner ... that did nothing wrong at all.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655


if every 'airspace violation' resulted in the shootdown you seem to think is 'justified', we'd have planes going down all the time, all over the world.

face it, a <20 sec over flight of meaningless airspace created by a meandering national boundary which was likely following a ridge line is a really, REALLY stupid provocation.

it also "reveals" Turkey as supporting the ISIL troops in Syria ...

which, you know, would nominally make Turkey *our* enemy.

if Obama wasn't on ISIL's side in the first place.

Anonymous Takin' a Look December 21, 2015 4:36 PM  

@81

you are correct sir

Blogger JaimeInTexas December 21, 2015 4:43 PM  

@79
Rusdia released their radar track and, surprise, surprise, it differs from the Turk's. Also, Russia'sbomber was on a programmed flight path that was, per protocol, given to relevant air forces operating over Syria ... these uSAF.

We will have to wait for the black box's data to be published. Which is not being [mis]handled like the MH17 "investigation."

Blogger APL December 21, 2015 5:17 PM  

bob K mando: "that's not a dick move. that's an attempt to start a war."

Yea.

Why would the head of an Islamic ( or if you insist, a secular state moving toward 'full on' Islamic statehood) possibly want to provoke a war between two nominally Christian countries?

This particular state used to be the centre of the mohammedan Ottoman empire.

Impenetrable mystery.

Blogger ray December 22, 2015 3:03 AM  

Correction, my reply was to #55 (Eric) and not #56.

Blogger JaimeInTexas December 22, 2015 6:22 PM  

@78
Or Putin understand the ramifications better than Erdrodan.

Blogger Eric December 23, 2015 11:52 PM  

Heh. Russia says it can't read the black box. If you needed an indication they're lying about the radar track...

Blogger JaimeInTexas December 24, 2015 10:03 AM  

Or it can be the truth.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/russia-says-impossible-retrieve-data-black-box-warplane-downed-turkey-n483831

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