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Wednesday, December 23, 2015

Settle down, ladies

La, such a catfight! It's always a bit amusing to see when a disagreement here moves to rhetorical metargument, where instead of arguing about the actual point of disputation, the argument is transformed into who can generate more feelbads in the other side.

It is readily apparent that "you're arguing like an SJW" has become the new "that's a logical fallacy", pseudo-dialectic that is both rhetorical and ineptly applied. It's not quite as irritating, of course, as SJW is a more recent and less perfectly defined term; it used to make my teeth itch to see people use "logical fallacy" as a synonym for "statement with which I disagree".

I stomped that inept rhetorical device out by the simple tactic of always asking the individual a single question: what was the logical fallacy? Was it the Undistributed Middle? Denying the Antecedent? Ignoratio elenchi? The fact that they could neither identify nor even describe the "fallacy" they had decried usually sufficed to teach them their error in a sufficiently embarrassing way to prevent them from again resorting to the rhetorical tactic.

Now, who is "arguing like an SJW?" Neither "the new Star Wars is a great movie everyone should see" nor "the new SJW Wars sucks and I wish I hadn't seen it" crowd has, as far as I can tell, lied. Neither side has decried the other's right to hold its opinion, or made any attempt to shun, discredit, or disemploy the other. Neither side has attempted to claim that the other side is intrinsically immoral, racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, or bigoted.

Both sides have indulged heavily in rhetoric, but while SJWs are limited to rhetorical communication, so are most non-SJWs.

So, it's simply not true that anyone is "arguing like an SJW". And the fact that someone could imagine the other side doing so is not reflective of anything but the individual's own imagination. I could imagine that JJ Abrams might one day make a movie that I want to see, but that does not indicate that he has actually done so, or that he will do so in the future.

I knew I wouldn't bother seeing the Disney movies as soon as I learned he was the director. Mr. Abrams has had a long, distinguished, and successful career in Hollywood, during which he has not made a single movie or television show that interested or entertained me in the slightest. Considering that I saw one of his Star Trek movies when it was on TV one night, I was not surprised to learn that he has delivered what is essentially an repetitive remake of one of its predecessors. He may be a master of lens flare, what he is is not is an original story teller.

And to turn the old saying on its head, while history rhymes, it does not repeat. The absurdity of what Abrams has produced, from a story perspective, can perhaps be best understood if one applied his storytelling technique to a hypothetical remake of Lord of the Rings.

Imagine the Shire. Imagine a party, not a birthday party, but a 50th wedding anniversary for Sam and Rosie Gamgee. In the midst of the party, they disappear, and leave behind them a mysterious piece of jewelry for their daughter, Frodette Gamgee. Then, one day, a grey-bearded, dark-skinned stranger appears; it is Gandhi the black dwarf, warning Frodette that it is a shard of Morgoth Bauglir's iron crown, in which the fallen Ainur had imbued with his immortal essence. The shard had escaped notice in the War for the Ring, but now that Sauron and the One Ring are gone, it is the key to ruling Middle Earth.

A new power, an evil power, an invisible power has risen in the East, and the King of Gondor, Aragorn's son Sarugorn, has been acting strangely of late. Frodette must bring the iron shard to Aglarond, where the King of the Glittering Caves will know what do... but beware, the Knight Riders of the Invisible Empire are hunting for it!

Personally, the only movie review in which I am genuinely interested in is Mr. John C. Wright's. Those who have read Transhuman and Subhuman: Essays on Science Fiction and Awful Truth will understand why.

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163 Comments:

Anonymous Minion #414 December 23, 2015 5:24 AM  

Terry Brooks is that you? He made perfectly good money recycling the same story over... and over..

Blogger Johan December 23, 2015 5:33 AM  

The more I think about the new Star Wars, the more I hate it.

The Phantom Menace received great reviews when it came out as well. It took awhile for the nostalgia to wear off and people to see it as the turd it is.

The same will happen with The Force Awakens. It is the worst Star Wars movie by a long shot. Horrible and irredeemable.

Blogger Shimshon December 23, 2015 5:37 AM  

Vox, if you change the names around a bit, Abrams might accept that pitch as the basis for Episode 8.

Blogger Scott6584 December 23, 2015 5:40 AM  

LOL. Got quite a chuckle from your "new" Lord of the Rings "sequel."

Blogger Johan December 23, 2015 5:42 AM  

Except Sarugon must be either black or fabulous. He fecklessly thinks that Frodette needs help on her journey, not realizing she is a strong independent women who can handle herself.

Anonymous Peter Garstig December 23, 2015 5:53 AM  

The reviews and the hype is part of the marketing machine.

I recently saw someone on twitter ask a simple question regarding modern movies and their marketing machine behind them: "Recite one quote are name one character of Avatar, the most successfull movie ever".

I wonder who could.

Blogger Raziel Walker December 23, 2015 5:55 AM  

Thought the movie was entertaining even if it did make me sigh a few times with the angst. Just as many gaping plot holes as any other star wars movie. Gender and race of the cast was irrelevant. Two straight white man instead of Rey/Finn wouldn't have made it a better movie for me.

Blogger Steve, the Dark Ninja of Mockery December 23, 2015 5:59 AM  

Guys, as Martin Luther King said:

We're gonna be like three little Fonzies here. And what's Fonzie like? Correctamundo. He cool.

As long as Star Wars still has Buck Gordon fighting the Cylons with light phasers, it's all good.

but beware, the Knight Riders of the Invisible Empire are hunting for it!

I would pay money to see a gay talking 1982 Pontiac Trans Am run over some hobbits.

Unfortunately David Hasselhoff is starting to look like Rue McClanahan in his old age.

Anonymous Alice De Goon December 23, 2015 6:01 AM  

I recently saw someone on twitter ask a simple question regarding modern movies and their marketing machine behind them: "Recite one quote are name one character of Avatar, the most successfull movie ever".

I wonder who could.


Avatar starred Wheelchair Guy, Hot Blue Chick, Old Ripley, New Vasquez and Colonel Big Knife.

Oh, you wanted the character's actual NAMES?....Uhhhh......

Blogger PatrickH December 23, 2015 6:03 AM  

Frodette waves her hobbette hand: "This isn't the shard you're looking for." KITT, the leader of the Knight Riders: "It isn't? Huh." Turns around, head hanging, and slinks away.

Blogger Salt December 23, 2015 6:06 AM  

I've seen pictures, even some video, of people gathered together to see the film. People dressed as Star Wars characters, light sabers and all. I might have thought it a convention.

Did they have safe spaces?

Blogger Markku December 23, 2015 6:06 AM  

Now, who is "arguing like an SJW?"

Two people.
------
Karsten:
Exactly. This thread is the entire culture war in a nutshell.

And it is not coincidental that posters such as Nate and Samuel Scot, who have most aggressively defended the (((tribe))) and Israel, and have been most virulently anti-NSDAP, are the ones who are defending it most loudly.

Wake up, people.
----------
Chris Nelson:
Why would you give money to people that despise you for a few hours of entertainment when you have other choices?

Do you know who "loves" this film? The SJWs at Vile 770 love this film. A good chunk of the Sad Puppies love this film. And they won't even discuss any ethical limitations when it comes to entertainment. Apparently the visual media gets an Affirmative Action pass while the written word has to stand on merit.

People that are critical of genre writing and wouldn't buy any "Ancillary Dinosaur" crud, will drop their mental shields because it's ""Star Wars"" and they want special effects to take them back to their childhood.

It's ironic that the largest media empire is selling a badly crafted story of "rebellion" and people eat it up like soma.
-----------
Chris Nelson:
So what ethical line do you draw in your choice of entertainment?

If the current version of Star Wars is acceptable, then "Ancillary Justice" and it's sequels should be acceptable. Made by the same ilk. (And if you like that maybe you can enjoy some books by Samuel Delany who is a better writer with better works than Star Wars or any of the Ancillary tracts?)

It's just a "movie", just "books", just "entertainment". (Just "recreational" drugs..)

Don't you have multitudes of choices of entertainment that feature higher quality from better sources? Was the marketing blitz too much? The childhood memories of the films, the toys the debates? The cult-like religious devotion to bad plots with awesome special affects that defy physics? The brotherhood of discussion equal to only the NFL fans?

Do you even care where your entertainment dollars go? (Or do you support that rag-tag group of rebels from planet Disney?)
(...)
I'm beginning to think that there's not much difference between the denizens of File 770 and the Sad Puppies. Most of them like the new Star Wars while tending to ignore any ethical issues or poor writing... It's the closest thing they have to a joint religion.

Blogger Steve, the Dark Ninja of Mockery December 23, 2015 6:07 AM  

Avatar starred Wheelchair Guy, Hot Blue Chick, Old Ripley, New Vasquez and Colonel Big Knife.

BZZZT! Wrong!

Their names were Go-Tard, Mystique, Grandma, Lezspanic, and Senator John McCain.

Blogger Sherwood family December 23, 2015 6:27 AM  

This debate/thread has become crazy to watch. I have one brief thought:

Part of the Sad/Rabid Puppies campaign was to nominate stuff that was good regardless of politics/identity of the creator. Those arguing that they will not watch Star Wars because it is the work of SJWs have transformed into the mirror image of those they despise by politicizing everything. I still haven't seen the film. If it sucks then it sucks. But arguing that it is the work of SJWs and therefore must be shunned as part of a culture war campaign just seems odd. The story's the thing, not the author.

Blogger Ron December 23, 2015 6:36 AM  

Can someone recommend a good, no-fluff primer on logical fallacies? I mean something simple but easily understood that I can re-read mutliple times without getting a headache.

Thanks in advance

Blogger Arthur Isaac December 23, 2015 6:43 AM  

My personal opinion is that anyone who goes fanboi on a Disney princess movie is suspect. That is just opinion but it's one I can't seem to shake.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan December 23, 2015 6:56 AM  

Not seen it, won't spend money to see it in a theatre, my guess more propaganda than art by a long shot.

If I produced it I would start with scenes directed by Terrence Mallick of woman against nature on the desert planet. Then the force is awakened when on a different planet the evil force participant meets a potential candidate who is torn between good and evil this sets up the story from there.

But NO, Karsten was right even if he did not have the good sense to shut up after he made his point, Abrams followed the old script, anti-white propaganda.

Blogger ZhukovG December 23, 2015 7:05 AM  

340 comments about a Disney movie?! Some movies might be worth this much comment currency. 'Triumph of the Will', or 'Battleship Potemkin', hell; Sunset Boulevard, all come to mind.

But no Star Wars movie has ever been worth this much rhetorical capital.

I'll probably watch it on DVD, but will continue to get my 'Glow Bat' fix by playing Star Wars the Old Republic.

Blogger OGRE December 23, 2015 7:06 AM  

I actually was hoping that Patton Oswalt's 'filibuster script' would have been used; that was pure genius.

Anonymous Swed December 23, 2015 7:11 AM  

@14. Blogger Sherwood family

I do not want poop in my food. The chef is an environmentalist and puts a little poop in every dish he makes because hey, recycling.

Some are arguing that I'm bringing the politics of the chef into the issue by refusing the food, and hey, you can't even taste the poop with all the spices and besides there's poop in all restaurant food nowadays so what are you going to do, cook for yourself?

But it was the chef who brought politics into the food in the first place. There was no need for him to put poop in an already mediocre dish.

Blogger VD December 23, 2015 7:14 AM  

Those arguing that they will not watch Star Wars because it is the work of SJWs have transformed into the mirror image of those they despise by politicizing everything.

That's where you are wrong. The new Star Wars was already publicly politicized by the director. You cannot politicize what has already been politicized.

1. Over the last few years, JJ Abrams has been trying to push for more racially diverse casts in the projects he directs and produces, when appropriate. His hands were mostly tied by continuity by the recent Star Trek films, but he has really been making an effort in his television productions.

2. We wrote these characters but when we went to cast it, one of the things I had felt, having been to the Emmys a couple times — you look around that room and you see the whitest fucking room in the history of time. Its just unbelievably white. And I just thought, we’re casting this show and we have an opportunity to do anything we want, why not cast the show with actors of color? Like not for sure, and if we can’t find the actors who are great, we shouldn’t, but why don’t we make that effort because it wasn’t written that way and isnt that the cooler version of doing this as opposed to saying ‘this is an urban show’. It fucking kills me when they call something ‘an urban movie’ like its a separate thing, like ‘its that thing over there.’

3. We don’t know how JJ Abrams will be handling those criticisms in the seventh film, but we do know he’s making extra efforts to make the cast more diverse.

Anonymous kfg December 23, 2015 7:16 AM  

I'm gonna go sit with Arthur Isaac.

Blogger VD December 23, 2015 7:19 AM  

Two people.

Neither one of which met the standards I described. It's just rhetoric, in which you and Nate both also indulged. You and Chris even said very similar things.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan December 23, 2015 7:21 AM  

I personally cannot wait till white men are so "othered" that the parasites drop dead (metaphorically).

Blogger Steve, the Dark Ninja of Mockery December 23, 2015 7:23 AM  

ZhukovG - Triumph of the Will was boring. Shit special effects and a lame script which was mostly a guy shouting at people.

Battleship Potemkin was retarded. Only the Japs would think putting a WW2 navy vessel in space was a good idea.

I only watch legit movies, such as Hotel for Dogs, or Hotel for Dogs 2 : Doggy in the Lobby.

Regarding Star Wars, why so Sidious?

Blogger Legion of Logic December 23, 2015 7:33 AM  

Wow. This seemed...overly harsh. So if I'm supposed to hate the new Star Wars in order to be "correct", exactly what science fiction movie should I like? Sure don't want to be a "fanboi".

Blogger ZhukovG December 23, 2015 7:34 AM  

@25. Steve, the Dark Ninja of Mockery

lol.

Because, I prefer the Sith Empire(SWTOR).

Blogger VD December 23, 2015 7:34 AM  

So if I'm supposed to hate the new Star Wars in order to be "correct", exactly what science fiction movie should I like?

Who said anything about correctness. If you like watching remakes, then watch them. They've got them for everything from Dukes of Hazzard to Scooby Doo.

Blogger Sherwood family December 23, 2015 7:40 AM  

Swed and Vox: if it is politicized it is politicized. My point is: is the movie good? If it is good, I don't care if they smuggle in a message. I certainly don't have to agree with it to still be entertained. On the other hand if it sucks and the reason it sucks is because the director thought he was being all edgy with his lazy political messaging...well, yeah, that kinda seems like a stupid idea and I have no reason to see it.

Swed's point about poop in the food is a bad analogy. There will always be ideas and viewpoints in writing, in movies, or in media that are someone's deeply held belief which I think are just wrong. If I disqualified books and movies based on that fact alone I could scarcely read only a handful of books and only watch a small number of movies. But I am happy to not read them or watch them if they are dreck and have the audacity to insult my intelligence with a lame political message as well.

There are plenty of messages in classical literature that I don't agree with but I can still appreciate the works because they are well made and have other praiseworthy aspects.

The best literature or movies have the best craftsmanship married to the noblest of messages. Anything else is less than the best.

Of course, there are some messages that are so abhorrent that regardless of how well-crafted they may be I am unwilling to support them. My question is: does the film have enough other merit to make it worth watching? From your arguments it would seem that it does not.

Blogger Krul December 23, 2015 8:01 AM  

As Star Wars films go, TFA is clearly not up to the standard of ANH or ESB, so it's fighting for third place with ROTJ. All the Social Justice stuff is exactly as expected and what else can you say about it? Yeah, affirmative action stunts are bad on multiple levels, but so what? It's not like they're ruining some masterpiece here.

Back to the interesting question. Which is better, Return of the Jedi or The Force Awakens? I say ROTJ is the better film, but it'd be fun to see what others think.

Blogger NewAgeGOP December 23, 2015 8:02 AM  

I felt it was an accurate depiction of what happens when the mother goes to work instead of raising her child. Working mothers produce emo sissies or hyper masculine criminals. Add in Han running off and being an absent NBA father and you get your kid joining a violent gang or ISIS...er I mean the First Order or Dark Side. The Skywalkers need to raise their kids and exhibit proper gender roles. Galaxy solved.

Anonymous ? December 23, 2015 8:05 AM  

if it is politicized it is politicized. My point is: is the movie good? If it is good, I don't care if they smuggle in a message

And an example of a "good" politicized movie would be... ?

Blogger Student in Blue December 23, 2015 8:22 AM  

Being on the outside of this (haven't watched the movie, haven't even watched 2 and 3 because of 1), I will I have to say it really does look like a lot of people clinging on to Star Wars nostalgia. It might not be nostalgia but it certainly looks like it from the comments.

A lot of arguments on how bad it is seem to get countered by "Well in this previous plot this happened, in other movies it was XYZ and the plot reason is that." Probably the only one that wasn't was the "Well she used a staff extensively and that translated into using a lightsaber." Kinda plausible, but it seems a stretch. The fact that everything else depends on the other movies doesn't bode well for a movie to stand on its own rights.

If it wasn't Star Wars brand and iconery, I wonder if people enjoy it anywhere near as much? I think there'd be less hate of it, simply because it'd be just another fantasy movie.

Anonymous Stephen J. December 23, 2015 8:22 AM  

You know, the terrible thing is that I would probably watch that hypothetical LOTR sequel/remake, and probably enjoy it, too. I'd feel awful afterwards but I'd watch it.

There is a reason my favorite Bible passage is St. Paul's lament, "That which I should do, I do not; and that which I would not do, I do."

Blogger Skylark Thibedeau December 23, 2015 8:27 AM  

The absurdity of what Abrams has produced, from a story perspective, can perhaps be best understood if one applied his storytelling technique to a hypothetical remake of Lord of the Rings.

Or he could just film Terry Brooks "The Sword of Shannara". I understand why MTV decided to skip straight to "Elfstones of...".

Anonymous Napoleon 12pdr December 23, 2015 8:35 AM  

Hollywood is as creatively conservative as it is politically liberal. All they are willing to put out these days are remakes and sequels.

Castalia House Productions could clean up.

Blogger Joshua_D December 23, 2015 8:36 AM  

16. Arthur Isaac December 23, 2015 6:43 AM

My personal opinion is that anyone who goes fanboi on a Disney princess movie is suspect.


True, but no one's perfect. We all have our weaknesses.

26. Legion of Logic December 23, 2015 7:33 AM

Wow. This seemed...overly harsh. So if I'm supposed to hate the new Star Wars in order to be "correct", exactly what science fiction movie should I like? Sure don't want to be a "fanboi".


Surely you mean "fangirrrl".

Anonymous Napoleon 12pdr December 23, 2015 8:41 AM  

@33 Student in Blue:

Part of the teeth-grinding is that Star Wars (the original movie) and Empire were such outstanding films. Epic space opera of the sort many of us grew up reading, but never hoped to see on the screen.

Then things went wrong. Return of the Jedi was too much of a remake, the prequels made no logical sense. And it appears that TFA is yet another remake, this time forgetting that the Rebel Alliance won.

It's frustrating. Politics aside, a competent writer's self-respect should force him to not blindly copy someone else's work.

Blogger Loyd Jenkins December 23, 2015 8:41 AM  

I enjoy all of Abrams' stuff. But I have low taste. Reading Mr. Wright's review of the Hobbit movies made me realize how low they are. (As an aside, his review was as enjoyable as the movies, maybe more.) But the review made me realize how unimaginative Hollywood has become. Maybe it will change some day. Although it will probably take competition from outside Hollywood.

Blogger Joshua_D December 23, 2015 8:46 AM  

The Hobbit movies were terrible. I mean, really bad.

Blogger Skylark Thibedeau December 23, 2015 8:46 AM  

Mon Empereur. Hollywood is run by accountants who are afraid to take achance on anything new so we get crap remakes like the Lone Ranger and Starsky and Hutch.

The Mouse has turned STAR WARS into a Disney Princess Film. I'm betting another version of Rey appears on their ABC live action Princess show or there is a Spinoff: "Once Upon a Time in a Galaxy Far Far Away"

Anonymous Anonymous Bosch December 23, 2015 8:50 AM  

Ron, this site provides a good entry into particular types of fallacious arguing, but is by no means comprehensive and the examples it gives are simplistic at times, but it can be good for getting your feet wet: http://writingcenter.unc.edu/handouts/fallacies/

Our host might have some other recommendations as well, but this is as good a place as any to start.

Blogger VD December 23, 2015 8:55 AM  

Castalia House Productions could clean up.

Find us funding and we will.

Anonymous A. Nonymous December 23, 2015 8:56 AM  

I recently saw someone on twitter ask a simple question regarding modern movies and their marketing machine behind them: "Recite one quote are name one character of Avatar, the most successfull movie ever".

I wonder who could.


"HOW DOES IT FEEL TO BETRAY YOUR RACE?!?"

~Col. Miles Quaritch

Blogger Nate December 23, 2015 9:01 AM  

"Now, who is "arguing like an SJW?" Neither "the new Star Wars is a great movie everyone should see" nor "the new SJW Wars sucks and I wish I hadn't seen it" crowd has, as far as I can tell, lied."

Whoa whoa whoa

Mischaracterization there chief.

We're not arguing that its a great movie and everyone should go see it.

We're saying it was it was fun. That's all. I don't think its a great movie. I don't even know how to rate it beyond ranking it within the star wars series... all I have said is it's fun, and its better than jedi. So better than jedi and New Hope puts it somehwere between a 3 and 9 on a 10 point scale.

Blogger Student in Blue December 23, 2015 9:08 AM  

@VD
Find us funding and we will.

Considering the success of Kung Fury on such a (comparably) low budget, it shouldn't be too hard to find some initial seedmoney and make an enjoyable B movie at the very least.

Blogger Nate December 23, 2015 9:09 AM  

"2. We wrote these characters but when we went to cast it, one of the things I had felt, having been to the Emmys a couple times — you look around that room and you see the whitest fucking room in the history of time."

I wonder if he realizes how insulting this comment would be to black folks.

So you wrote the characters... without bothering to think about their race at all?

This is what I mean when I say the skin of the actors in the movie doesn't matter. They are all white. They all act white. Every one of them. Because they were written to BE white then stuck a minority in to play the role.

Just like Rae. She's not a female character. She's a male character which happens to be played by a female.

Anonymous NZT December 23, 2015 9:20 AM  

The LotR comparison is hilarious and on point. That's EXACTLY what Abrams did here. It is that blatant. I also absolutely would not put it past them to make that exact movie sometime in the next few years; the Hobbit movies made it pretty clear they're looking to squeeze every nickel they can out of their leftover sets and costumes.

I was explaining to a friend last week why I wasn't very excited when Disney announced they were making a slew of new Star Wars (he was geeking out about it hard). My argument went: "so Disney bought the franchise and announced they were making 5 new movies. How would you feel about it if they announced tomorrow that after these 5 are done they were going to make 10 more, to be released 2 a year for the following five years?"

His face fell a little, but he said something like "as long as they're good, I wouldn't mind".

"Fine, sure. Then the day after that they announce an agreement to option the franchise to 20th Century Fox in 10 years, who intend to make 15 more new Star Wars movies, including a complete, official remake of the original trilogy. Are you still excited? Are you still going to feel that thrill every time the opening crawl starts up? Do you think the well of creative inspiration is going to run that deep?"

At that point he got the point. Movies are partly made to earn a profit, and lots of people work on them, but a good movie MUST have some sense of personal vision and enthusiasm for the specific story it's telling. If it only exists because fanboys are certain to show up and throw money at it, it's almost a guarantee it will be mediocre at best. A cynical corporate franchise conveyor-belt entertainment product like SW7 (directed by a hack hired gun like Abrams) can get asses in seats and keep your attention for 2 hours, and that's about it. Fast and Furious 7 also cleared that low bar, and I think that movie will prove to be just about as memorable and timeless as this mess.

One other point: not only does the Star Wars brand get diluted from overexposure (and it frankly crossed that rubicon a long time ago), it also gets diluted from being treated like a old couch on Craigslist. Just think: if you had a few billion dollars you could personally buy Star Wars from Disney, film a crappy 30-minute fanfiction in your backyard on your iPhone camera, and release it, and everyone would have to accept it as a canonical Star Wars movie. They wouldn't, of course, but then why should anyone accept Disney's crappy retread just because they wrote a fat check to Lucas? Is that really how authorship works?

Anonymous A. Nonymous December 23, 2015 9:22 AM  

This is what I mean when I say the skin of the actors in the movie doesn't matter. They are all white. They all act white. Every one of them. Because they were written to BE white then stuck a minority in to play the role.

Every one of them, Nate? Even the lone (albeit extremely prominent) black character, who is a cowardly, deceitful, shiftless screw-up of a menial labourer with no interest in anything beyond preserving his own skin and keeping company with the white girl?

Blogger Nate December 23, 2015 9:23 AM  

"That's where you are wrong. The new Star Wars was already publicly politicized by the director. You cannot politicize what has already been politicized."

And this is where I think you're going a bit to far with that statement. The Quest For Diversity did not effect the story. As he says in the quote... they wrote the characters to be the characters. THEN they when and cast them.

The quota didn't effect the story at all.

Blogger David Hallquist December 23, 2015 9:24 AM  

There was a great opportunity here to have the Sith functioning as guerrillas tearing down order, while the Republic tried to hold civilization together. But no, the resistance fighters, guerrillas and insurgents are somehow always the good guys.

Blogger Nate December 23, 2015 9:25 AM  

"Every one of them, Nate? Even the lone (albeit extremely prominent) black character, who is a cowardly, deceitful, shiftless screw-up of a menial labourer with no interest in anything beyond preserving his own skin and keeping company with the white girl?"

That's cute. If you think that's actually an argument... you're a moron.

They are clear that the characters where already written when they went to cast them. That means, the skin color of the actor had no baring on the character itself.

Anonymous szIlk December 23, 2015 9:26 AM  

But...but...Vox...all the Ep. 7 haters ARE bigots, because....BLACK STORMTROOPER LOVES WHITE HERO CHICK!

Blogger David Hallquist December 23, 2015 9:26 AM  

How do I set up another name for posting?

Blogger Nate December 23, 2015 9:27 AM  


"That's EXACTLY what Abrams did here."

No. its exactly what he did with the Star Trek movie. What was done here was done to re-energize a fan base and say, "Hey we know the prequels were shit. We're not going to make that mistake. We're going to do this right."

Blogger Nate December 23, 2015 9:29 AM  

"But...but...Vox...all the Ep. 7 haters ARE bigots, because....BLACK STORMTROOPER LOVES WHITE HERO CHICK!"

Here... let me fix that for you...

But... but... but... Vox! All the people who had wrongfun at episode 7 are Cucks! because....BLACK STORMTROOPER LOVES WHITE HERO CHICK


See how that works?

Blogger Arthur Isaac December 23, 2015 9:38 AM  

Hype. Disney and CGI, stick "Star Wars" on it and watch the unimaginative flock to it like flies to sh!t. The marketing alone made me suspect. I wonder how many landfills are going to be filled with this schlock.

Blogger Student in Blue December 23, 2015 9:42 AM  

@56. Nate

Nate, quit getting triggered.

@55. Nate
No. its exactly what he did with the Star Trek movie. What was done here was done to re-energize a fan base and say, "Hey we know the prequels were shit. We're not going to make that mistake. We're going to do this right."

This is why people think you're saying Episode 7 is good.

"This fixes the mistakes of Episode 1!"

The problem with Episode 1 wasn't that it was boring (my nephews find it quite fun apparently), but that it was pointless, inconsistent, and several other things *besides* fun. That's why people called it garbage.

So if you're saying it fixes the mistakes of Episode 1, you're necessarily saying that Episode 7 is not pointless, inconsistent, and several other things that made people hate Episode 1. That is, it is a "good" movie. "Fun" is completely left out of it.

@45. Nate, for comparison
We're not arguing that its a great movie and everyone should go see it.

We're saying it was it was fun. That's all. I don't think its a great movie.

Blogger Desiderius December 23, 2015 9:43 AM  

"But the review made me realize how unimaginative Hollywood has become. Maybe it will change some day. Although it will probably take competition from outside Hollywood."

That would certainly help.

But ultimately the mysterious disappearance of imagination is a direct result of the abandonment of God. See Hitchcock-Truffant where they talk about Hitchcock's Catholicism. Those of us raised in the church take for granted the great stories that were the very fabric of our childhood: Abraham and Isaac, Joseph and his brothers, Moses leading his people to freedom, Hannah and Samuel, Ruth to David to the Son of Man in a manger.

Too many of our would-be storytellers were raised in an environment barren of the light materials out of which good stories are made.

The Hebrew just as readily translates as "God created mankind with his own imagination." It's no wonder that when we deny our Father in heaven, we lose His most precious gift to us.

Blogger Arthur Isaac December 23, 2015 9:43 AM  

Oh yeah, also it sounds like this "Starkiller" base is a virtual knock-off of the "Tarkin" from the comic books. More JJ retconn and imagination free non-brilliance. He ripped off the rip off.

Anonymous VFM #0410 December 23, 2015 9:46 AM  

With movies, it is difficult to argue in anything but rhetoric, due to the highly opinionated nature of what you enjoy personally.

There was a surprising amount of nastiness in the debate, however. Star Wars is, apparently, a franchise which people take rather personally. I suppose I should have expected that given the hype. But I don't really understand fanboyism very well. There are films I enjoy and films I don't. But I'm not really loyal to franchises. It strikes me as more marketing, at that point, than substance.

But it would appear that I am in the minority, on that count. The film was mediocre, and had some Mary Sue moments I didn't care for. But it had some pretty explosions, and satisfied as two hours of popcorn-and-soda pulp entertainment. I've found that JJ Abrams is kind of like Michael Bay in this respect. Just your standard, over-hyped, over-marketed popcorn-eating, forgettable movies with good FX.

Hard to find much originality in Hollywood, these days.

Blogger Arthur Isaac December 23, 2015 9:49 AM  

I suppose that some people thought the Hobbit trilogy was "fun" too. It literally puts me to sleep. Like putting a hyperactive 5 year old on meth and giving him an unlimited special effects budget.

Anonymous Lukas Brunnor December 23, 2015 9:55 AM  

I'm sure some equally Vile Minion has already pointed this out with regards to the SW crap but "we don't care" should been the predominant view in any argument on the subject. 300+ comments? I'm disappointed.

Besides, all that argumentative energy should be directed at whether Hermione should be cast as black, like J.K. Rowling intended.

Lastly, I now know Vox actually hates us because 1) he knows his detractors are worthless hacks who love to give very derivative works the SJW treatment 2) he knows they are shameless thieves 3) he knows these same people frequent this site as lurkers and trolls 4) regardless of this he posts up that hilarious take on a sequel for LotR, so now our other favorite trilogy is doubtlessly going to be marred by the future trilogy he described above. Damn it.

Blogger Nate December 23, 2015 9:57 AM  

"So if you're saying it fixes the mistakes of Episode 1, you're necessarily saying that Episode 7 is not pointless, inconsistent, and several other things that made people hate Episode 1. That is, it is a "good" movie. "Fun" is completely left out of it."

There are tons of problems with the prequels... and yes... chief among them is that they aren't any fun. It was impossible for them to be fun with the idiot bumbling around, and the over the top CGI.

the CGI is toned way down in this one, and it changes the whole look of the movie. It looks like New Hope.. because the CGI is used to improve the look of models... not to replace the models.

I didn't think the prequels were fun. I thought they were obnoxious.

I'll explain the difference. In Force Awakens... in the big battle where Rae gets kidnapped... everything is going to crap. The storm troopers are kicking everyone butt. Buildings are getting blown up. its all falling apart for the good guys.

And then... look over there... a squad X-Wings coming in hot... throwing up rooster tails off the water. It was an absolutely perfect Hero Shot. I was in the theater with my three sons and they all went completely bonkers.

They just lost it.

Nothing in the prequels had that effect.

Blogger Nate December 23, 2015 10:00 AM  

"@56. Nate

Nate, quit getting triggered."

Bitch please. This isn't triggered. This is me enjoying mowing down the cannon fodder.

Blogger Joe A. December 23, 2015 10:01 AM  

Uh... this Frodette story is more interesting than anything Abrams has ever attempted.

Blogger Arthur Isaac December 23, 2015 10:05 AM  

Ugh, Nate they didn't remake Ep. I, they remade Ep IV. Just thought I'd point that out.

Blogger Chris Nelson December 23, 2015 10:06 AM  

@48 NZT

"Just think: if you had a few billion dollars you could personally buy Star Wars from Disney, film a crappy 30-minute fanfiction in your backyard on your iPhone camera, and release it, and everyone would have to accept it as a canonical Star Wars movie. They wouldn't, of course, but then why should anyone accept Disney's crappy retread just because they wrote a fat check to Lucas? Is that really how authorship works?"

No, but that's how Hollywood works.

There are hundreds of authors that can write better tales than most of the drak that ends up on the screen. But the mass audience doesn't require much quality to shell out for a ticket, so it's not a requirement. Great writing doesn't guarantee butts in the seats. It's not about art, it's about making money.

Star Wars is the equivalent of fast food for the visual cortex. Most people don't deeply question the quality of the entertainment they consume. They are captured by entertainment culture and just switch off the deeper critical processes. Very few see past the first level of abstraction.

Here's an interesting life hack/experiment. Try going through your daily life for an extended period with the absolute minimum amount of mass media entertainment. Use that time for sleep, exercise, studies, developing new habits, whatever. See how long you can go before you start noticing the differences in yourself and others. See if you can escape or partial escape what John Barnes refers to as "The Box".


Blogger Arthur Isaac December 23, 2015 10:06 AM  

Ugh, Nate they didn't remake Ep. I, they remade Ep IV. Just thought I'd point that out.

Anonymous Lukas Brunnor December 23, 2015 10:06 AM  

I was in the theater with my three sons and they all went completely bonkers.

They just lost it.


I think Nate just used the Nick Searcy defense.

Anonymous VFM #0410 December 23, 2015 10:07 AM  

@65: Bitch please. This isn't triggered. This is me enjoying mowing down the cannon fodder.

In fairness to the other guy, I haven't seen you this worked up in awhile. Still, you liked the movie. Good for you and your three sons. Some hated the movie like the OP. Some are somewhere near indifferent, like myself. I've been seeing similar reactions on Fecalbook as well, so it's a polarizing movie. That's better than the prequels, though, which pretty much unanimously sucked ass. So there's that.

Anonymous Viidad December 23, 2015 10:10 AM  

I won't see it because I think they missed a huge opportunity: hiring Wes Anderson as director.

I would have paid to see that.

Everything handmade, long pauses in the dialog, Owen Wilson and Bill Murray, lots of strange interior shots of velvet and wood-paneled rooms inside retro spaceships.

"The Life Interstellar with Edmund Skywalker"

Blogger Arthur Isaac December 23, 2015 10:10 AM  

Glad you liked it Nate. Not interested in being 12 anymore myself (although it might be fun given the right vehicle). Unfortunately Disney ain't that for me anymore.

Anonymous A. Nonymous December 23, 2015 10:15 AM  

That's cute. If you think that's actually an argument... you're a moron.

They are clear that the characters where already written when they went to cast them. That means, the skin color of the actor had no baring on the character itself.


Taking Hollywood people at their word is pretty much the definition of being a cute moron here.

Anonymous NZT December 23, 2015 10:18 AM  

"That's EXACTLY what Abrams did here."

No. its exactly what he did with the Star Trek movie. What was done here was done to re-energize a fan base and say, "Hey we know the prequels were shit. We're not going to make that mistake. We're going to do this right."



Completely backwards and wrong. The Star Trek reboot was an original story, not a rip-off or a remake (even Into Darkness wasn't really that similar to Wrath of Khan once you get past the fact it had a character named "Khan"). The chief complaint about those movies was that he took a franchise built around thoughtfully exploring big ideas and moral dilemmas and turned it into broad, generic, hectic action sci-fi, like a Transformers movie.

*SW7 spoilers below*

Whether it's "fun" or "good enough" or whatever, TFA is indisputably a cowardly corporate ripoff of ANH (with a few elements from ESB). Loner orphan on desert planet finds droid with secret plans, flees Empire on Millennium Falcon with Han Solo, cantina scene, "I am your father" scene on bridge over abyss, mentor struck down by Darth Vader clone, X-wings do trench run and blow up the Death Star as countdown timer reaches zero, and fin. These aren't just minor callbacks, it's practically the entire movie. Again, that's why VD's LotR riffing is funny, because it's disgusting that a studio would try to get away with that, but the sad/funny fact is they did here and probably could there.

Just FYI, when it comes to such a popular brand, "energizing the fan base" is a given, and "not making the mistakes of the prequels" is an extremely low bar. The real question was whether this movie was going to stand on its own and do something fresh and interesting, or just coast lazily on brand recognition and fanservice and stunt casting. Now we know the answer.

Blogger Student in Blue December 23, 2015 10:18 AM  

@Nate
There are tons of problems with the prequels... and yes... chief among them is that they aren't any fun. It was impossible for them to be fun with the idiot bumbling around, and the over the top CGI.

I haven't watched two or three, but I gather that they were pretty boring.

Episode 1, which I did watch, was stupid, pointless, but was sufficiently entertaining if you turn off your brain. The plot was stupid, but plot doesn't have to be good for a movie to be fun. There was an idiot bumbling around, but innumerous movies are fun despite, with, or even because there's an idiot bumbling around.

And I remember that when Episode 1 came out, everyone had *fun* with it. Only when that new, fresh fun wore off, did they start noticing and/or being bothered by the other problems.

That's the pattern I'm noticing right now.
That it's not that you're having WRONGFUN and WRONGTHINK, but that you're saying something being fun somehow negates it being crap in other areas, and a sizable number of those other areas don't even have to do with it being political.

Blogger VD December 23, 2015 10:20 AM  

And this is where I think you're going a bit to far with that statement. The Quest For Diversity did not effect the story. As he says in the quote... they wrote the characters to be the characters. THEN they when and cast them.

SJWs always lie.

Blogger Were-Puppy December 23, 2015 10:22 AM  

@33 Student in Blue

Being on the outside of this (haven't watched the movie, haven't even watched 2 and 3 because of 1),
---

Describes me exactly. I had no idea the ilk were triggered so severely by SW!

Yesterday was in a game and some clown in chat was blabbing about comics need more gay and trans characters. In this case they were laughed and mocked and it brought up all the dumb things like white characters being replaced by black ones.

There were people who like them because comics, and others who said, I like the old ones, screw the new ones. Seems a big parallel to what's happening here with SW.

The most interesting SJW defense that I had not heard before: "Why do you care if you don't read them anymore?"

That's actually a good question, isn't it.

OpenID elijahrhodes December 23, 2015 10:25 AM  

What does it say, that a movie would garner the most commentary of any thread in recent memory at voxday? And here we are at thread 2, and people are picking up right where they left off.

Anonymous VFM #0410 December 23, 2015 10:30 AM  

@78: Describes me exactly. I had no idea the ilk were triggered so severely by SW!

I am triggered by the fact that you think the ilk are triggered. You racist-misogynist-homophobe vaguely unpleasant person! I demand jazz hands! And Patreon!

Blogger Student in Blue December 23, 2015 10:31 AM  

@80: I am triggered by the fact that you think the ilk are triggered. You racist-misogynist-homophobe vaguely unpleasant person! I demand jazz hands! And Patreon!

You forgot the most important one.

Nazi.

Blogger Student in Blue December 23, 2015 10:33 AM  

What does it say, that a movie would garner the most commentary of any thread in recent memory at voxday? And here we are at thread 2, and people are picking up right where they left off.

People respond when they're emotionally engaged. Movies are something of a shared experience, whereas something like Syria or CIA is a distant, almost abstract thing, even though it's orders of magnitude more important.

Blogger automatthew December 23, 2015 10:34 AM  

The most interesting SJW defense that I had not heard before: "Why do you care if you don't read them anymore?"

For the same reason I care that people make scat porn. "Blah blah consenting adults" is moral abdication.

Blogger Were-Puppy December 23, 2015 10:35 AM  

@54 David Hallquist

How do I set up another name for posting?
---

You can fiddle with the drop down below the comment box. IF you want to change your blogger name, go to your blogger dashboard. Then pick the drop down with your name in the upper right, and pick Blogger Profile. You can change that name there.

Blogger S1AL December 23, 2015 10:36 AM  

@elijahrhodes - Have you not realized that "nerd" is an accurate descriptor for 90% of the commenters here?

@Nate - Yeah, the first x-wing fight scene was fantastic. Poe really needed more screentime, as the hero's-hero character.

Blogger Were-Puppy December 23, 2015 10:39 AM  

@59 Desiderius

Too many of our would-be storytellers were raised in an environment barren of the light materials out of which good stories are made.
---

A lot of these copy cats are also lacking in imagination to the point they don't even understand the originals they copy. These people are really destroyers in a way.

Anonymous Toby Temple December 23, 2015 10:39 AM  

I was in the theater with my three sons and they all went completely bonkers.

They just lost it.


So?

The x wings were cool. That's it.

The movie was still bad. Better than the prequels, maybe. But still bad.

Blogger Nate December 23, 2015 10:40 AM  

"@78: Describes me exactly. I had no idea the ilk were triggered so severely by SW!"

Since when does "triggered" mean "interested in"?

Are we also triggered by calvinism and hyper-inflation vs deflation?

how about college football are triggered by that?

9mm vs .45?


I don't think triggered means what you think it means.

Blogger Nate December 23, 2015 10:41 AM  

"SJWs always lie."

Oh for fucks sake.

SJW Always Lie! (but only when their lying confirms my bias. When it doesn't I take them at their word)

Blogger Bard December 23, 2015 10:42 AM  

Movie sounds pretty progressive for such "A long time ago". Curious just how "far far away" a universe needs to be in order for this shit to be plausible?

Blogger Were-Puppy December 23, 2015 10:42 AM  

@61 VFM #0410

But I don't really understand fanboyism very well.
---

People become invested, especially things from youth, because they spent many an hour imagining and thinking about the object of their fandom. What if this happened, or what if that happened? And I guess it builds into almost an imaginary friend over time. At least, that's my completely nonprofessional take on it.

Blogger Nate December 23, 2015 10:44 AM  

"Episode 1, which I did watch, was stupid, pointless, but was sufficiently entertaining if you turn off your brain."

This is going to vary with tolerance. For example.. I can turn my brain off and have fun with movies to a great extent. I mean.. I liked the Transformers movies. Because Giant Robots Fighting. I like Pacific Rim.

Terrible movies. Absolutely terrible movies. But fun. So I give no fucks.

Blogger Chris Nelson December 23, 2015 10:46 AM  

"A lot of these copy cats are also lacking in imagination to the point they don't even understand the originals they copy. These people are really destroyers in a way."

Who needs imagination when you are told what to think, what you will like and you don't have work to entertain yourself? Everyone loves Star Wars, right?

It's cargo-cult entertainment with rampant squeals and reboots everywhere.

Blogger Student in Blue December 23, 2015 10:47 AM  

@Nate
"SJWs always lie."

Oh for fucks sake.

SJW Always Lie! (but only when their lying confirms my bias. When it doesn't I take them at their word)


It means STOP TAKING THEM AT THEIR WORD. Even if they have kernels of truth in it, there's a lie in it somewhere.

You know better than this.

Anonymous All Is Well, Be Happy December 23, 2015 10:51 AM  

Whew! I for one am glad that row is over. Ilk and Faceless Minions at each other's throats!

Thankfully not a drop of blood was spilled on the Dark Lord's SJW bone inlaid floor.

For some of you please draw your attention to the rack by the far back wall. There you'll find harsh wool double barrel sling shots for your newly formed "death stars" on your chest. And for those of you with a serious case of newly formed butthurt, there are porcupine lined pads.

All is well, be happy.

Blogger Nate December 23, 2015 10:53 AM  

"That it's not that you're having WRONGFUN and WRONGTHINK, but that you're saying something being fun somehow negates it being crap in other areas, and a sizable number of those other areas don't even have to do with it being political."

I would direct you to the review that started this. I defy you to find a single aspect of that review that isn't based on the film's supposed politics.

Most of our problem with that review is the fact that the idiot obviously didn't understand the movie in the first place.

You can say "its stupid for the force to be conscious!" That's a perfectly defensible position. But not realizing that was what was going on?

Then the whole bullshit about how she wasn't doing anything for the greater good... just what was good for her? I mean what was good for her would be selling the droid for the fortune she was offered for it.

Or the fact that once the droid was delivered... she was leaving to go back to the desert shithole she hated, because her parents told her to.

And on top of that... he completely misses the fact that every negative stereotype of female leadership you can think of is plastered onto Captain Phasma.

She fails to notice her soldier is distressed. She fails to notice he isn't performing. When he defects and even frees their prize prisoner... her excuse is "I sent him for retraining."

Then she gets her dumb ass captured.. and then lowers the shields on the whole base... because... I mean what else was she supposed to do? They had a gun to her head. Through stupidity and cowardice she alone gets who knows how many thousands of people killed.

So yeah... tell me all about how pro girl power the movie is.

Or perhaps you're going to argue that everything with Phasma was a total accident... and everything with HeroGirl was totally super deliberate messaging?

Blogger Nate December 23, 2015 10:55 AM  

"You know better than this."

what I know is Vox hasn't seen the movie... and thus has no means to judge it other than by the idiot's words.

The treatment of Phasma proves beyond a doubt that they were not out to raise women up as some super amazing special group.

Blogger Were-Puppy December 23, 2015 10:58 AM  

@80 VFM #0410

I am triggered by the fact that you think the ilk are triggered. You racist-misogynist-homophobe vaguely unpleasant person! I demand jazz hands! And Patreon!

@81 Student in Blue
You forgot the most important one.

Nazi.
---

I offer this completely non-triggering C&C cartoon in a non-apology. The only thing it has to do with topic is it came from the 70s

NSFW!
Basketball jones

Blogger Chris Nelson December 23, 2015 11:00 AM  

"This is going to vary with tolerance. For example.. I can turn my brain off and have fun with movies to a great extent. I mean.. I liked the Transformers movies. Because Giant Robots Fighting. I like Pacific Rim. "

I used to mindlessly consume media offerings. Then I realized I've shouldering more responsibilities, and 1 Corinthians 13:11 came to mind.

Blogger Were-Puppy December 23, 2015 11:05 AM  

@88 Nate

I don't think triggered means what you think it means.
---

Maybe so, I just meant it as it gets a big reaction from people.

Anonymous Old Fat Guy in a Tracksuit December 23, 2015 11:05 AM  

Martha, get the popcorn, and my dentures! Eh... and make me a sammich, this might be a while.

Blogger Raggededge #0057 December 23, 2015 11:13 AM  

@99, Geez, lighten up Nancy.

Blogger SciVo December 23, 2015 11:14 AM  

Ron @15:

You should also learn about cognitive biases, since you need to get your thinking tight before you can get your arguments tight. Last I checked, Wikipedia has a decent article on cognitive bias and also a good list of different kinds.

Blogger Student in Blue December 23, 2015 11:16 AM  

@Nate
I would direct you to the review that started this. I defy you to find a single aspect of that review that isn't based on the film's supposed politics.

The review tied it all in together as being due to the moviemaker's politics, but a lot of the things mentioned can stand alone as being a weakness of the movie. As an example of something that can stand alone.

From the review in question:
They are both grandchildren of Darth Vader, but for some reason her untrained ability with the farce greater than her cousin’s trained ability with the force.

Force "super-charging" sounds like a ridiculous hamhanded attempt at storytelling and gamma fantasies of power. Is it *really* that more dire in Episode 7 that the Force has to be a Deus Ex Machina? The Light Side was only Luke, Yoda and Obi-Wan at the beginning, and then Obi-Wan died, and no mysterious super-charging happened there.

It's just like that midichlorian stuff from Episode 1.

So, there's one.

Blogger Markku December 23, 2015 11:20 AM  

Making FIVE movies is total crap, by the way. From the beginning the series was supposed to have nine episodes. Disney absolutely should have stuck to the plot, made the episodes 7-9 that everybody were waiting for since Return of the Jedi, and then stop.

Anonymous Frank B Luke December 23, 2015 11:21 AM  

Another SJW getting their comeuppance. I'm glad we don't have a membership.

Blogger Nate December 23, 2015 11:34 AM  

" Is it *really* that more dire in Episode 7 that the Force has to be a Deus Ex Machina? The Light Side was only Luke, Yoda and Obi-Wan at the beginning, and then Obi-Wan died, and no mysterious super-charging happened there."

Yes.

Things are that much more dire. At any given time there are only 2 Sith.

At time of Force Awakens there is 1 Sith... about to be 2... and there are no Jedi to face them.

As I said, even Luke's jedi cred is at the very least questionable.

And again... its fine for you or anyone else to dislike this plot. The problem is... the idiot reviewer didn't recognize the why part of it.

Blogger Nate December 23, 2015 11:36 AM  

"I used to mindlessly consume media offerings. Then I realized I've shouldering more responsibilities, and 1 Corinthians 13:11 came to mind."

Good for you. I trust you don't spend time tweeting or arguing about trivial things on blogs.

moron.

Blogger Student in Blue December 23, 2015 11:43 AM  

@Nate
At time of Force Awakens there is 1 Sith... about to be 2... and there are no Jedi to face them.

Which is also dumb because after Yoda kicks the bucket, there's one half-trained Jedi (Luke) vs two super-powerful Sith. Like you said: "even Luke's jedi cred is at the very least questionable."

No super-charging, which is why I was comparing it to the midichlorians which is a Force gimmick introduced that makes no sense with previous movies and detracts from it.

And again... its fine for you or anyone else to dislike this plot. The problem is... the idiot reviewer didn't recognize the why part of it.

Care to elaborate? I believe I'm missing what you're trying to say here.

Blogger VD December 23, 2015 11:44 AM  

What does it say, that a movie would garner the most commentary of any thread in recent memory at voxday?

Not even close. It didn't even make 400 comments.

Blogger Red Jack December 23, 2015 11:53 AM  

Napoleon 12pdr

There are very few good writers anymore in Hollywood. That is the issue.

Everything I have read about TFA confirms that. They are just filing the serial numbers off, giving it a new paint job, selling the car. Now, Terry Brooks did that with his SoS series. Thing is I LIKED it, because while you knew what he was doing, he tried to do it well (the first three books anyway).

Another example is the standard of detective stories, Marlowe by Raymond Chandler. Every detective story you have every read is based on those books. Some are better at it, some are not. The better ones follow the formula, but put in original content. The worst ones rip off the plot and don't even try to hide it.

One of the reasons I like authors like Mr Wright is that while he DOES follow the recipe (Somewither for example) he does it very, very well. I have read Somewither three times, and still smile at some of the spots. Butcher is another guy who can do it (though he hit a rough patch).

However, when it comes to a big movie, the execs don't want that risk. TFA is a rip off of the earlier series, just like the Marvel movies are, because to forge new territory is to risky. I would have preferred the Thrawn trilogy myself, but I can totally understand why Disney didn't want to go that direction. They want to serve leftovers because they know so many like the main dish (and hated the appetizer). Making a brand new dish runs the risk of having the fans hate it.

Blogger Joshua_D December 23, 2015 11:56 AM  

61. VFM #0410 December 23, 2015 9:46 AM

Star Wars is, apparently, a franchise which people take rather personally.


I would like to nominate this as "Understatement of the Month."

Not sure if it qualifies for the year, but definitely for the month.

Blogger Markku December 23, 2015 12:04 PM  

The plot so far:
-Empire builds a Death Star
-Empire builds a bigger Death Star
And now... Wait for it...
-Empire builds EVEN bigger Death Star

And the movie knows how silly this is. When the rebels hear, they basically go "Oh come on, not this shit again? *sigh* Ooooh-kay. Where's the shield generators? There. Where's the weak spot? There. Ok, guys, let's go blow this up.

Now, it's really nice that the movie is forthright about how much the central plot element sucks, but I wonder if the alternative occurred to anyone, to make it NOT suck and not have to apologize for it.

That's the real weakness of the movie.

Blogger Chris Nelson December 23, 2015 12:06 PM  

"Good for you. I trust you don't spend time tweeting or arguing about trivial things on blogs."

Who said these discussions were trivial? Our host has allowed them to continue and I doubt he has trivial motivations.

You seem to put a lot of energy in defending a multi-billion dollar media empire that you've made offerings to. I find that behavior worthy of examination and study. I'm intrigued by your fascination with shiny objects.

OpenID elijahrhodes December 23, 2015 12:06 PM  

Not even close. It didn't even make 400 comments.

346 is still pretty damn impressive. And had you not forked the thread it would likely have easily exceeded 400.

Blogger John Wright December 23, 2015 12:09 PM  

"Personally, the only movie review in which I am genuinely interested in is Mr. John C. Wright's."

You will be disappointed to discover that I am in complete agreement both with those who loved the movie and those who hated it.

So my review, when I get around to writing it, will no doubt sound like an old vaudeville routine or something from Gilligan's Island:

Mr. Howell: blah blah blah
Gilligan: You're right, Mr. Howell!
Professor: yadda yadda yadda
Gilligan: You're right, Professor!
Skipper: Gilligan, they can't both be right.
Gilligan: You know what, Skipper....(wait for it...) You're right!

How my perfect Vulcan brain with deal with this obvious logical paradox remains to be seen.

Blogger Chris Nelson December 23, 2015 12:11 PM  

"Star Wars is, apparently, a franchise which people take rather personally.

I would like to nominate this as "Understatement of the Month."

Not sure if it qualifies for the year, but definitely for the month."

For some it's a religion.

You can trash-talk their sports team. Insult their parents. Question their diet. Object to their political reasoning. But "Star Wars" is sacred and must be revered!

Anonymous Stu, The Bright Ninja of Flattery December 23, 2015 12:11 PM  

@8 Steve, the Dark Ninja of Mockery

"I would pay money to see a gay talking 1982 Pontiac Trans Am run over some hobbits."

I think Castalia House Pictures has its first project.

@ 25

"Battleship Potemkin was retarded. Only the Japs would think putting a WW2 navy vessel in space was a good idea."

Vakulinchuk and Queen Starsha had a love child while high on both spice (Star Wars) and The Spice (Dune)... and his name is Steve.

Anonymous Darth Binks December 23, 2015 12:13 PM  

The copying of ANH is part of the plot, guys. Did you see ESB? This movie is taking Yoda seriously--Luke needed to complete his training but left. We think he succeeded despite the warning, but this movie is saying otherwise. I know none of you watch ROTJ, but in that movie Yoda bitches Luke out for not completing his training. Because he didn't listen to Yoda the Force is causing the world to repeat itself, thus you see the same stuff as you did in ANH. We need "another" to help Luke break the cycle--again, exactly what Yoda said in ESB.

The Force Awakens is the movie you get when you take ESB seriously.

It's not derivative of Star Wars. It's derivative of Abrams other most famous property.

I mean, Luke is on a creepy island that no one can find unless some magic things happen first.

The problem with The Force Awakens is not that it copies Star Wars but that it rewrites the Original Trilogy and makes Luke a failure and the rebel victory at Endor a mirage.

Blogger VD December 23, 2015 12:16 PM  

"I would pay money to see a gay talking 1982 Pontiac Trans Am run over some hobbits."

Voiced by Milo, presumably.

Blogger luagha December 23, 2015 12:16 PM  

I would like to add that getting to bag on the film in a group of high minded individuals is what got me the rest of my moneys worth on a film that's 1/3 good.

It had actual heroes being heroic.

It had a great moment with Finn and Han Solo holding guns on Captain Phasma. Finn goes 100% stereotype hood negro on her, ("Who's got da power now?!") and Han had to pull him back.

And in my head I knew, "She's tortured him. Him specifically." It was great acting, for me, for a tiny moment, because it SHOWED and it made me KNOW.

(And it totally proves the character was written black ghetto from the get go. You can take the boy out of the ghetto, mind wipe him, indoctrinate him as a Stormtrooper; but you can't take the ghetto out of the boy.)

Blogger Noah B #120 December 23, 2015 12:16 PM  

Does this mean that we're not boycotting Castalia House?

Blogger John Wright December 23, 2015 12:19 PM  

@18
"But no Star Wars movie has ever been worth this much rhetorical capital."

You have it exactly backward. Great, intricate, well-crafted movies are of interest only to a small fragment of intellectuals. Popular movies and stories define the dreams that define society. Mark Twain once quipped that the Civil War was caused by IVANHOE, with the popularization of notions of chivalry and manly honor among the South. That is why the Elite are desperate to infuse political correctness into each new movie, and the Rebel Alliance -- that would be us -- are vehement to reject political correctness.

Blogger Steve, the Dark Ninja of Mockery December 23, 2015 12:24 PM  

Viidad - I think they missed a huge opportunity: hiring Wes Anderson as director.

Yes! YES!

Jason Schwartzman to star as Darth Fischer.

Blogger Noah B #120 December 23, 2015 12:26 PM  

"And it totally proves the character was written black ghetto from the get go."

Or... it could demonstrate that regardless of the writing, when you hire black ghetto actors you get black ghetto acting.

Blogger Chris Nelson December 23, 2015 12:27 PM  

"You have it exactly backward. Great, intricate, well-crafted movies are of interest only to a small fragment of intellectuals."

I don't think that all movies have to be masterpieces. It would be nice if the studios would hire some decent writers so it didn't appear that Ren and Stimpy crapped out the script while stoned on 'shrooms.



Anonymous Napoleon 12pdr December 23, 2015 12:28 PM  

@123 John Wright:

Good point. The antebellum South was called "Sir Walter Scott-land" for a reason.

A culture's legends have great influence.

Blogger Noah B #120 December 23, 2015 12:32 PM  

They need to dump JJ Abrams and hire Kathryn Bigelow to direct the next one.

Anonymous Michael Maier December 23, 2015 12:36 PM  

Nate:

Excuse me... Your kids weren't even alive in 1999, let alone watching TPM in the theater when the doors opened and Darth Maul was standing there...



then popped that double light saber.

THAT got the entire theater roaring when I saw it. I didn't hear any moments like that last week.

Anonymous Stu, The Bright Ninja of Flattery December 23, 2015 12:36 PM  

"I would pay money to see a gay talking 1982 Pontiac Trans Am run over some hobbits."

"Voiced by Milo, presumably."


Who else? Pretty sure Milo would be up for running over some Hobbits, too.

Anonymous DT December 23, 2015 12:40 PM  

Picture of men debating calmly in a stately room: the Dread Ilk debates anti-SJW strategies.

Picture of men in a brawl: the Dread Ilk debates Star Wars.

I'm still stuck on the fence. The story was a blatant, lazy rip off of ANH+ESB. Rey was without question a super special snowflake princess Mary Sue with ForceBoost. And when you reflect on the situation it's depressingly dysfunctional. The New Republic is incompetent. The First Order seems as strong as the Empire ever was. Broken Solo family leads to dark side emo son. And Luke just up and said "fuck it" and retired to an island. (A decision he probably made when he heard JJ Abrams was the new director.)

Vox's LoTR remake analogy was spot on, and made me feel a little sick inside. Like when you tell your friend you got laid and he replies "but she was 300 pounds...and 40."

And yet...I did enjoy TFA. Some of the scenes, such as the X-Wings coming to the rescue across the lake, were fantastic. I liked the actors and their chemistry. Heck, BB8 had better acting and more personality then anyone except Palpatine in the prequels.

It's junk food. But it is rather tasty junk food.

Anonymous RevRighteous December 23, 2015 12:52 PM  

@30

I think RoTJ was definitely better, even with ewoks. Luke facing down Vader and the emperor, in hopes of redeeming his father had a lot more development and emotion going for it that the copycat scene with Solo and son. TFA was fun while in the theater seat, but on the ride home you realize how much of it was paint-by-numbers nostalgia mining. As Markku said, they even had to acknowledge in the movie the overwhelming repetitiveness of it.

Blogger Sojourner December 23, 2015 1:11 PM  

Lord we need a space opera that can compete with Star Wars that we don't have to really quibble with. Mass Effect was so close but than totally failed on the hero sacrifice part. We really need something that moves the minds of men to remember what heroes are and yet makes us dream of worlds beyond our solar system. Hopefully something can come our way soon because it seems more than a decade that I've seen anything that grand me like that.

That said, I liked TFA and was disappointed at the same time. Some of my gripes are ironically answered in the novelization from what I've seen but much hinges on what happens in the next films. It certainly was hurt by the smallness of scope. Space didn't feel vast, it felt smaller than California. There's other things but they've been touched in a lot here except for the fact that Hollywood can't even seem to write good villains anymore. The last one that actually felt like a force of evil and chaos was Ledger as Joker. Kylo with the mask on was good but as soon as that mask came off, ugh.

Anyways don't think condemning people for looking the film helps but I do concede that Kennedy certainly looks like she's gonna foul this franchise up unless some suit realizes it's going to hurt the bottom line. Only female director I'd possibly trust is Bigelow. Curious though, do the anthology films to come, if they bring a different tone, change anyone's mind about what Disney wants to do?

Blogger Markku December 23, 2015 1:18 PM  

Let's see if it can be done. Bring us your (serious) ideas about what ELSE evil the First Order might have done, except build a third Death Star with a giant, red f*ck me spot, like end bosses in old, 8-bit sidescrolling shoot 'em ups.

Anonymous Michael Maier December 23, 2015 1:23 PM  

As for the X-Wings... I'm still shaking my head at the utter stupidity of having them shoot individual Stormtroopers standing right next to the good guys while zipping by at Mach 1.

I guess Luke blowing up the first Death Star wasn't THAT impressive...

Anonymous Odd Wobble December 23, 2015 1:26 PM  

you look around that room and you see the whitest fucking room in the history of time.

He's wrong. The whitest room is found where they hold that one award ceremony in Hollywood that is never televised: The Academy's Scientific and Technical Awards that are given at a formal dinner held two weeks prior to the Oscar ceremony. Not only is it all white, but it's all male too.

Anonymous Col. Miles Quaritch December 23, 2015 1:29 PM  

Quit your whining, you pansies.

Think you got problems? Try living in a universe where James Cameron is god. Imagine trying to do your damn job, keep your men alive, and save Earth - while everyone including 'god' is mooning over a bunch of giant space smurfs.

Imagine having some idiot on your team sell out his entire species, basically, because the thirsty dumbass wanted blue poontang. Then Lezspanic and a bunch of other ripoffs from the Colonial Marines join him for no reason at all, and everything goes to complete hell.

I'll take MaRey Sue or whatever her name was over that gang any day. Unrealistic is good when its on your side, and after the smurfs, can't say it bothers me anyway. You can keep the beta orbiter deserter guy - already had my fill of traitors-for-tail.

Blogger Sojourner December 23, 2015 1:30 PM  

They may be obessed with giant evil machine kind of dread when in reality they should do something like the Chaos forces in Warhammer 40k where the seductive Dark Side ends up corrupting whole planets and such. Then they would be really worried about betrayal and hopefully redemption. That's of the top of my head.

Blogger Steve, the Dark Ninja of Mockery December 23, 2015 1:33 PM  

"I would pay money to see a gay talking 1982 Pontiac Trans Am run over some hobbits."

Voiced by Milo, presumably.


I think that much awesome fabulousness concentrated in one place would cause the solar system to explode in a glittery supernova.

Anonymous IncoherentM December 23, 2015 1:33 PM  

"Settle down, ladies"

The post title gave me a good laugh, which I needed. I've been scanning through the comments here, elsewhere, and read Nate's Fisking. Like Mr. Wright, I'm agreeing with arguments on both sides. Star Wars has been with me since I was 6 and watched the original upon release. Much of my childhood revolved around Star Wars things. It's part of me, in a way, and it's difficult to be critical. Judging by others comments, I'm not the only one with this issue.

Anonymous Laz December 23, 2015 1:50 PM  

@79. "What does it say, that a movie would garner the most commentary of any thread in recent memory at voxday? And here we are at thread 2, and people are picking up right where they left off."

There were several threads this year that went over 400 comments.

Blogger Sojourner December 23, 2015 1:52 PM  

Lord we need a space opera that can compete with Star Wars that we don't have to really quibble with. Mass Effect was so close but than totally failed on the hero sacrifice part. We really need something that moves the minds of men to remember what heroes are and yet makes us dream of worlds beyond our solar system. Hopefully something can come our way soon because it seems more than a decade that I've seen anything that grand me like that.

That said, I liked TFA and was disappointed at the same time. Some of my gripes are ironically answered in the novelization from what I've seen but much hinges on what happens in the next films. It certainly was hurt by the smallness of scope. Space didn't feel vast, it felt smaller than California. There's other things but they've been touched in a lot here except for the fact that Hollywood can't even seem to write good villains anymore. The last one that actually felt like a force of evil and chaos was Ledger as Joker. Kylo with the mask on was good but as soon as that mask came off, ugh.

Anyways don't think condemning people for looking the film helps but I do concede that Kennedy certainly looks like she's gonna foul this franchise up unless some suit realizes it's going to hurt the bottom line. Only female director I'd possibly trust is Bigelow. Curious though, do the anthology films to come, if they bring a different tone, change anyone's mind about what Disney wants to do?

Anonymous Laz December 23, 2015 1:57 PM  

@92. Nate "Terrible movies. Absolutely terrible movies. But fun..."

I'd have to agree with this. Tons of horrible movies out there that are fun. Anybody remember the Ernest movies?

OpenID Jack Amok December 23, 2015 2:13 PM  

If it wasn't Star Wars brand and iconery, I wonder if people enjoy it anywhere near as much? I think there'd be less hate of it, simply because it'd be just another fantasy movie.

The iconery is powerful. Just before Disney acquired the IP, we made a pitch for a Star Wars game at the invitation of Lucasfilm. They provided us with lots of assets to put into the pitch. I still remember when I added the title and theme music to the prototype and fired it up for the first time. Very cool, and I'm kind of jaded.

If this movie was not Star Wars, it would be considered a fun but vapid science fantasy romp. If this had been made in 1977 instead of the original Star Wars, I think it would have had 80% of the appeal. Force Chick Rey is actually slightly less annoying than whinny Luke, but Darth Metro is a far less convincing villain than Darth Looming Giant.

Blogger Danby December 23, 2015 2:41 PM  

Around here at least, "SJW" is the new "fag".

Blogger Noah B #120 December 23, 2015 2:43 PM  

"Let's see if it can be done. Bring us your (serious) ideas about what ELSE evil the First Order might have done, except build a third Death Star with a giant, red f*ck me spot, like end bosses in old, 8-bit sidescrolling shoot 'em ups."

Horrible bioweapons (possibilities here are pretty much endless). Small, highly portable anti-matter bombs easily capable of annihilating planets. Fusion inhibitors that stop fusion processes in stars, or going the other way, fusion accelerators that cause stars to go supernova (more drama and big explosions this way). Killer robots that are actually combat effective and not completely gay. An implementation of a vast, productivity-sapping, soul-killing bureaucracy determined to control every aspect of life, passed off as an attempt to protect the inhabitants of the galaxy from themselves (this movie would be cheap to make and could feature the protagonists waiting in queues for the entire film).

Anonymous DT December 23, 2015 3:15 PM  

Let's see if it can be done. Bring us your (serious) ideas about what ELSE evil the First Order might have done...

* Train all troops to infiltrate the schools, universities, and low level government positions of the New Republic.

* Start teaching students how the Old Republic exploited entire planets and native races for profit and greed.

* Tell them that the Jedi were nothing but an elite group of cis white males that kept a glass ceiling over stronk womyn and SoC (Species of Color).

* Convince the banking clan to fund violent protests around the galaxy in the name of #TuskenRaiderLivesMatter.

* Let anyone and everyone immigrate to Coruscant without checking their backgrounds or even their SpaceBook posts. When there's crime and violence, call for sensible blaster control laws.

* Overextend the New Republic military by bombing the shit out of outer rim planets to help "moderate" rebel groups destabilize and take over the systems.

Did I miss anything?

Blogger S1AL December 23, 2015 3:27 PM  

I mean, are we just moving right past the whole janissary thing?

Blogger Skylark Thibedeau December 23, 2015 3:51 PM  

I think JJ made the Stormtroopers resemble Janissaries by accident. Clones controlled by a Sith Lord and the Dark Side do not fit the narrative.

Blogger S1AL December 23, 2015 3:55 PM  

I meant as "other evil stuff", cause that fits the bill in my book. And slaughtering a village for the sake of expediency.

And I'd bet their lift tubes had bad pop music.

Blogger robwbright December 23, 2015 4:11 PM  

"We don’t know how JJ Abrams will be handling those criticisms in the seventh film, but we do know he’s making extra efforts to make the cast more diverse."

Let's see. One black male character. Check. One white female lead. Check. One hispanic male co-lead. Check. Two famous white co-leads (one of each sex). A white male antagonist. Check. A female stormtrooper antagonist (white under the helmet). Check. One white male hero who will be prominent the rest of the series. Check.

8 primary characters. One black. That's 12.5%. Almost EXACTLY the percentage of blacks in the United States. 6 white characters. 75%. Significantly more than the percentage of non-hispanic caucasians in the United States. One hispanic character. Less than the percentage of hispanics in the United States.

Whites remain over-represented per the U.S. population. What's your point?

Five male and three female characters. Males remain over-represented per the U.S. population.

What's your point? If JJ Abrams is attempting to go full SJW with casting decisions, he's sure as hell not doing a very good job of it. It's still a movie dominated by whites and/or males... although admittedly not as much as it would have been 30 years ago.

What annoys me most about the various complaints is complaints coming from people who have chosen not to watch the movie. That's rather like people who complain about God being pro-genocide without reading anything more than a commentary of the order to kill the Amalekites without actually studying the context of the order.

But hey, go on with your bad selves.

Blogger Tom K. December 23, 2015 4:13 PM  

Ava. . .What?

Blogger Tom K. December 23, 2015 4:13 PM  

Ava. . .What?

Blogger Tom K. December 23, 2015 4:18 PM  

LOL! Martin Luther King as Jules! Funny! Or is it the other way around? Anyway, great.

Vox, I sure do miss not having like buttons here. So much good stuff.

Blogger Desiderius December 23, 2015 4:37 PM  

Nate @96,

Outstanding comment. This really crystallizes your take.

Abrams is someone who loves and is inspired by SF for the same reasons we love and are inspired by SF. He's not making the movie to proselytize for social justice then writing a story to suit, he's tacking on some SJW window-dressing because he thinks (wrongly) it's the right thing to do.

This raises a general strategic question how best to engage with those who have some rudimentary SJW junk code running around in their heads, rather than having been to their core already integrated into SJWBorg. It's an important question because that description would currently apply to the better part of the creative class.

Blogger Desiderius December 23, 2015 4:50 PM  

John Wright @123,

"Popular movies and stories define the dreams that define society. Mark Twain once quipped that the Civil War was caused by IVANHOE, with the popularization of notions of chivalry and manly honor among the South. That is why the Elite are desperate to infuse political correctness into each new movie, and the Rebel Alliance -- that would be us -- are vehement to reject political correctness."

Yes, exactly this.

One thing about the Elite: there is nothing they hate more than being common. As SJW becomes more and more common, and one can tell how common it has become by it's utter banality, the more likely they are to abandon it.

We should be vigilant for aid unexpected.

Blogger Desiderius December 23, 2015 4:51 PM  

VD,

"Find us funding and we will."

I suspect that Stephen J. could write-up a compelling proposal.

Blogger SirHamster December 23, 2015 5:56 PM  

As for the X-Wings... I'm still shaking my head at the utter stupidity of having them shoot individual Stormtroopers standing right next to the good guys while zipping by at Mach 1.

How do stormtroopers compare in size to womp rats?

Anonymous WaterBoy December 23, 2015 7:33 PM  

Markku @134: "Bring us your (serious) ideas about what ELSE evil the First Order might have done, except build a third Death Star"

1. Build a repulsor energy weapon (reverse tractor beam) and deploy on multiple star destroyers, which can be used to:
A) Push a planet into its sun.
B) Push a planet away from its sun (slower death and far less dramatic, but allows for the planet to be saved or evacuated).
C) Push a moon into the planet.
D) Speed up the planet's rate of rotation so that it tears itself apart.

2. Deploy squadrons of bombers equipped with tractor beams which capture humongous asteroids and bombard the planet. When escorted by TIE fighters, makes for a more active fight scene.

3. Another Death Star, which is not as ludicrous as it might seem given how governments always seem to build bigger and better warcraft to replace those lost and/or made obsolete (see Ford-class aircraft carriers as replacements for the Nimitz-class ships currently in service as an example...though these might actually be better analogues of star destroyers). But do away with the silly one-in-a-million bulls-eye concept and employ some other strategy to destroy it...such as the aforementioned asteroid bombardment. Better yet, just knock it out of commission until the next sequel.

4. So, all these Death Stars moving around the galaxy must be equipped with hyperspace drives, right? I mean, star systems which are light-years apart are travelled between in a short amount of time, meaning they have to go into hyperspace to do so. And if a moon-sized Death Star can make the leap, so can an actual moon. So just equip one with a hyperdrive and a normal-space drive, get it moving in the right direction and speed in normal space, then jump to hyperspace and pop out just before reaching the target planet. No more large and expensive construction projects; no more allowing rebels time to plan an attack against it; no more fatal weaknesses to exploit. Just set it and forget it.

Anonymous WaterBoy December 23, 2015 7:42 PM  

Michael Maier @135: "As for the X-Wings... I'm still shaking my head at the utter stupidity of having them shoot individual Stormtroopers standing right next to the good guys while zipping by at Mach 1."

SirHamster @158: "How do stormtroopers compare in size to womp rats?"

Funny, I had the same thought:

"Luke Skywalker countered that he used to "bulls-eye" womp rats in his T-16 Skyhopper back home and that they were not much bigger than two meters."

Airspeed and targetting computer accuracy would probably play a larger role than target size, in this case.

Anonymous VFM #0410 December 23, 2015 11:51 PM  

Let's see if it can be done. Bring us your (serious) ideas about what ELSE evil the First Order might have done...

Here are some ideas.

1. Big ass fleet. See: Empire Strikes Back. Sometimes you don't need a super weapon, you just need a fleet of big scary battleships. Give them a badass leader who can competently lead said fleet, someone who the Republic/Rebels/Whatever are actually afraid of. You can even lead up to this in the beginning by having some Republic guys say something to the effect of "yeah, we beat the Empire, but we didn't account for (insert large number of Star Destroyers). We're still hunting them..."

Yeah, I know, Thrawn trilogy basically. But that wouldn't have been a bad thing.

2. Have a smaller super weapon. That would be a good spin on it. So the Empire/First Order is running low on resources, budget, etc... because the Republic controls more planets. So someone comes up with the idea of building some "mini" Death Stars. Same concept, but made smaller. Continent killers, not planet killers. Here's the variation: because they are far cheaper, the Empire made more than one... The Rebels blow up one, celebrate, and go home to a planet whose capital city & province has been wiped out by the second one. Cue the lead-in to the next episode.

3. You could play role reversal. The Empire was beaten and so it becomes the "revolution" and the Rebellion becomes "The Man." Play it up like ISIS. They are evil, and growing more fear-mongering and desperate. They use terrorist tactics. They have spies, dark side adept infiltrators. Have the Republic be dickering about bullshit, and setup Leia as the voice of reason in the government, who funds a counter-insurgency led by old Rebellion veterans. The setup could have been very similar to this movie, in fact, just with terror tactics replacing the Starkiller "mega Death Star."

Blogger stevo December 24, 2015 4:53 PM  

All I know is that begging the question is not the same as raising the question. But I can't tell you why.

Blogger stevo December 24, 2015 4:54 PM  

All I know is that begging the question is not the same as raising the question. But I can't tell you why.

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