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Wednesday, December 16, 2015

The heart of the debate

Donald Trump sums up the existential question:
"I have a very hardline position - we either have a country or we don't have a country."

That's Trump, explaining why he might be the one candidate GOP voters can trust on immigration.
The problem, of course, is that far too many Americans have been convinced that their country is nothing more than an idea. A "proposition nation". Which is to say that it doesn't exist at all.

Those who are fixated on the various policies espoused by the different candidates are failing to grasp the situation: America is not a given. And after being invaded by 60 million foreigners, America is already not America.

That's why they talk about New America. New America sounds very exciting and progressive and all, but the key thing is to understand that in this context, "new" is synonymous with "not".

Labels: ,

120 Comments:

Anonymous Lukas Brunnor December 16, 2015 7:25 AM  

Remember how that worked out for New Coke?

Don't mess with what works (WASP America) or very soon it won't work at all (multi-culti cluster fuck America).

Blogger Phillip George December 16, 2015 7:32 AM  

well done, nailed it. tomorrow is by no means a given. What is taken for granted is sorely missed when it's no longer there and irretrievably gone.

AIDs conversion parties was the illustration. Extend the phenomenon to politics. It's all Kali.

Blogger rumpole5 December 16, 2015 7:41 AM  

When Trump declined the invitation to trash Cruz, Did I hear Trump say that he had been talking with Cruz for a couple of days? Trump/Cruz? Makes perfect sense because it might give us 1 1/2 + decades of actual nationalist rule.

Blogger Marcus Marcellus December 16, 2015 7:41 AM  

Europe will rebound, but in the US the numbers are simply too large and the white people too smitten by abstraction and platitudes. The US was never a real nation like Italy and France. New America is all there is.

Blogger dc.sunsets December 16, 2015 7:47 AM  

There are 6 billion people whose standard of living is way below that of the USA.

That alone screams for high fences lest my sons and grandchildren be overrun by teeming human waves and their lives become submerged by impoverished zombies.

Blogger dc.sunsets December 16, 2015 7:51 AM  

North America + human wave invasion = dystopian movie plot.

Want North America to look like one big urban slum? Leave the doors open and go to sleep.

Blogger rumpole5 December 16, 2015 7:51 AM  

@Marcus Marcellus - no real USA nation: Have you read Jayman's blog entry on the American Nations? I think that the category of "white people" us an over simplification.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan December 16, 2015 7:53 AM  

I read a line from last night's debate and Trump nailed it basically that the Caliph is exporting an army and our establishment is basically helpless

Blogger Nate December 16, 2015 8:03 AM  

ya know there is another question that relates to "Do you have a country or not"

That question is World War III.

Blogger Cataline Sergius December 16, 2015 8:09 AM  

I'd thought the purpose of this last minute debate was for the GOP to take down Trump.

Wrong call. It was knock Cruz down below Rubio.

Blogger haus frau December 16, 2015 8:11 AM  

The tone of nationalism even forced Kasich to back pedal on immigration. The candidates ate feeling the heat.
It is amazing how Bush cannot get it right. He put all his energy into going at it with Trump and came out looking more impotent than ever. Trumps stays level while Jeb's gets higher and bitchier.

Anonymous Cheburashka December 16, 2015 8:14 AM  

New America = not America.

Social Justice = not Justice.

Anonymous That Would Be Telling December 16, 2015 8:24 AM  

Europe will rebound, but in the US the numbers are simply too large and the white people too smitten by abstraction and platitudes.

If the combination is true, then we are indeed doomed. But @7 rumpole5's point is correct, we have multiple American nations, I myself live in a non-hilly part of Greater Appalachia, which in another map is part of the cultural South. Our ability to be part of a split has not been tested recently, our bloody-mindedness has been constantly tested and not found wanting. So there are many possibilities going forward, especially as the jihadists continue to attack and change people's attitudes.

Blogger tz December 16, 2015 8:35 AM  

Neo America brought to you by the Neo cuckservatives.

The problem is not the country, rural areas should do fine, it is the cities.

Corn, Cows, and Celery aren't multicultural. The soil won't change - the magic in the dirt is that it is aeons old. The bulls don't care about your age, race, or gender. Such tend to select out certain cultures over others.

In cities you can have Welfare whales and even white collar cube gnomes. They can find a place to be useless eaters. The question (RGD) is what happens when the productive feeders go on strike or are merely cut off.

The ants have allowed 20% new grasshoppers in. We'll see who survives the winter or if the hoppers migrate back south. Most ants are army ants.

OpenID basementhomebrewer December 16, 2015 8:35 AM  

@ 8 he also nails it on going after the Jihadi's families although he didn't articulate it very well. I wonder if he has been reading Col. Kratman. I was dying for him to tell Jeb "No you aren't serious if you are not willing to do what it takes to win this war".

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother December 16, 2015 8:38 AM  

Trump as a tool to wake people up to the importance of nationalism and the dangers of immigration is crucial to the survival of this country.

Blogger Nate December 16, 2015 8:38 AM  

"It is amazing how Bush cannot get it right. He put all his energy into going at it with Trump and came out looking more impotent than ever. Trumps stays level while Jeb's gets higher and bitchier."

Jeb comes across in the worst possible way. He comes across as entitled. Its like he really believes this is his election and he's seeing it being taken from him and he thinks its everyone's fault but his own.

Blogger Skylark Thibedeau December 16, 2015 8:40 AM  

It won't be a new America but New Americas. When the Mexicans have the numbers in the Southwest why would they want to be governed by a bunch of elite rich white Democrats in Washington and not by their own Spanish Speaking Oligarchs? The Republic of Atzlan or Republica Del Norte are bound to form if nothing changes.

Anonymous Napoleon 12pdr December 16, 2015 8:56 AM  

"The problem, of course, is that far too many Americans have been convinced that their country is nothing more than an idea."

Depends on how you define "idea", Vox. The United States is culture-based, instead of genetically-based, to a far greater extent than most nations. I think it is that culture, that set of ideas, that defines the United States. Anyone can be an American if they adopt the culture (including learning the common language).

On the other hand, there is far more to that culture than just the name...and our opponents don't seem to grasp that concept.

Blogger kmbr December 16, 2015 9:02 AM  

**hen the Mexicans have the numbers in the Southwest why would they want to be governed by a bunch of elite rich white Democrats **

Well, to be fair they do just that all through Mexico and South America. It's no wonder the "elites" think they can pull it off here.

If they must, they'll breed with one of them ala the Bush clan to earn their pigmentation and cred to maintain the power.

Anonymous Poor Investment December 16, 2015 9:03 AM  

http://www.steynonline.com/7366/welfare-for-the-world

(blogger would not let me tag it cuz it had "for" in the title)

Minnesota is home to America's largest Somali community, 33,000 people. The unemployment rate for Somali Minnesotans in 2015 was triple the state average, 21 percent. As of 2014, about 5,950 of the state's Somali population received cash assistance; 17,000 receive food assistance as of 2014.
A close study of Somali refugees by the government of Maine (home to the nation's second-largest Somali community) found that fewer than half of the working-age population had worked at any time in the five years from 2001 through 2006.
The U.S. unemployment rate of 20+ percent still represents a huge improvement over rates in Europe. Only about 40 percent of working-age Somali men in Norway are employed. In the Swedish city of Malmo, home to one of the largest Somali communities in Europe, only 20 percent work.

Blogger rumpole5 December 16, 2015 9:07 AM  

I'm a Anabaptist German Midlander, but I very much appreciate and admire every beer chugging, wifebeater wearing, gun toting, rebel flag waving, pickup truck driving, and country music blaring Appalachian. They are essential to our very survival! God bless you and please get you wife and/or girl friend pregnant. We need more of you!

Blogger Cataline Sergius December 16, 2015 9:08 AM  

Jeb comes across in the worst possible way. He comes across as entitled. Its like he really believes this is his election and he's seeing it being taken from him and he thinks its everyone's fault but his own.

But Daddy it's m-y-y-y turn!!!

Blogger VD December 16, 2015 9:19 AM  

Anyone can be an American if they adopt the culture (including learning the common language).

They can't and they haven't. Your attitude is precisely why America has destroyed itself. In fairness, it was a very stupid idea from the start, so it was bound to happen eventually.

Blogger Elocutioner December 16, 2015 9:22 AM  

Trump openly mocked and bitch slapped Jeb last night in front of all the base and had the audience laughing at it. The only way Trump could've insulted him more was to toss his dwarf wife across the stage.

Blogger rumpole5 December 16, 2015 9:23 AM  

"Anyone can be an American if they adopt the culture (including learning the common language)." -- I don't think so. There is just something special about the descendants of our founder English and Scots Irish folks that supports our identity as the USA. I think that it is genetic. Behavior is genetically determined with breeds of dogs and cattle. Why not humans. We German stock are great at showing up for work on Monday, engineering, and the like, but we don't really understand the concept of individual liberty and responsibility.

Blogger Zaklog the Great December 16, 2015 9:32 AM  

"New America" It's kinda like New Coke. It was very highly planned by the best brains they had, and it sounded like a fantastic idea . . . right up until people actually tasted it.

Blogger Zaklog the Great December 16, 2015 9:33 AM  

"New America" It's kinda like New Coke. It was very highly planned by the best brains they had, and it sounded like a fantastic idea . . . right up until people actually tasted it.

Anonymous Donte Jibril December 16, 2015 9:37 AM  

Define "real" America, please.

I was raised to believe that America was a diverse nation of many cultures, unified by a belief in representative democracy, civil liberties, and equal rights for all. That there's room for all different kinds of people.

The people here and the among the rest of the "alt right" have revealed a different take on what constitutes Real America, with views reminiscent of the right wing speech that paints whole swathes of the country (liberals, People of Colour, Muslims) as not "real Americans." And that we who disagree with one rigidly defined view should "get back on the boat."

Of course, the national track record on the equal rights thing is kinda muddy. Founding a nation on the enslavement of Africans and writing their lesser value into the Constitution may be America's Original Sin. Ensuring the equal treatment of all is still something we struggle with, be it based on race, gender, sexual orientation, religion, or socioeconomic class. So who knows, maybe equality isn't Real American?

It used to be that Irish and Italians were not Real Americans. A Presidential election in 1960 was partially concerned with whether an Irish Catholic was a Real American enough to be President. When did Irish and Italians become Real Americans? Are Latinos there yet? Black people? I won't even ask if Arabs are Real Americans yet.

Blogger Skylark Thibedeau December 16, 2015 9:55 AM  

Jibby! Please answer YES or NO. Are Spain, Greece, Bulgaria, Armenia, and Southern Cyprus occupied Territories like Palestine?

Blogger Scuzzaman December 16, 2015 9:55 AM  

I think it was Paul who observed that when you're talking about the new, the old is passing away ...

Only a couple of thousand years ago, give or take.

Blogger dienw December 16, 2015 10:01 AM  

26. rumpole5
"Anyone can be an American if they adopt the culture (including learning the common language)." -- I don't think so. There is just something special about the descendants of our founder English and Scots Irish folks that supports our identity as the USA.

Someone here a few weeks ago posted a comment that linked to a blogger discussing the original founders; his post lead to another blog that delineated the founding ethnicities: Swedes (North Western) Germans, English, and Dutch (New York).

Just to add: from another blog (Lame Cherry) I found information that those dreaded Pilgrims called themselves "Planters" and were on their way to Virginia but were deceived by their Merchant sponsors and were taken to New England. Tehy were also delayed by the poor condition of their original ship and by needing to repair the ship's pinnace.

Anonymous WillBest December 16, 2015 10:07 AM  

@29 So you bought the indoctrination, and then you realized that the facts don't support the conclusion. Typically, at that point you reject the conclusion.

Anonymous That Would Be Telling December 16, 2015 10:08 AM  

It used to be that Irish and Italians were not Real Americans. A Presidential election in 1960 was partially concerned with whether an Irish Catholic was a Real American enough to be President. When did Irish and Italians become Real Americans?

They never became Real Americans, and if JFK's disastrous period in office couldn't show you some of the truth of that, if the stark object lesson of Massachusetts can't tell you that, you're beyond teaching.

Anonymous rienzi December 16, 2015 10:09 AM  

@29 Donte Jibril: "I was raised to believe that America was a diverse nation of many cultures, unified by a belief in representative democracy, civil liberties, and equal rights for all. That there's room for all different kinds of people."

You were raised to believe a lie. In your defense, so were the rest of us.

However, you continue to believe it, while most of the rest of us have had our eyes opened, as painful as that could sometimes be.

You might want to read some of the blog's archives before posting, so you don't end up looking like an establishment moron spouting silly PC nonsense.

Blogger rumpole5 December 16, 2015 10:10 AM  

@ Donte Jibril -- “a belief in representative democracy, civil liberties, and equal rights for all."

The point is, all the polyglot groups you mention have done injury to the culture that produced the Declaration, and the Constitution. This is so because they are culturally, and probably genetically, at variance with the underpinnings of our basic governmental elements, Viz: English Commonlaw, the rights of Englishmen, rights endowed by a transcendent Creator, personal liberty and personal responsibility.

The reason that fewer people enjoy these benefits in other countries is because the people themselves are constitutionally incapable of understanding and applying them. The more foreign people we bring in here, the more we dilute the basic human founder component that has given us this wonderful culture we enjoy, and the more screwed up the USA will become. Cut off immigration now.

Blogger Sheila4g December 16, 2015 10:11 AM  

@29 Donte Jibril -
You really ought to choose a better template. "People of colour," "America's Original Sin," the repetitive "Real Americans," plus diverse, right wing, different, rigidly, and struggle. Standard pseudo-educated word salad + SJW boilerplate just doesn't do the trick here.

If you were quite a bit smarter, and more self-aware, you might try again without the premises of equalitarianism, a proposition nation, and diversity as universal values and unalloyed good. But you're quite obviously not smarter, so you'd best be served by gracefully retreating the field. You won't, because you lack the intellectual ability to understand your own limitations, but that's okay. Some here will laugh at you, others might mistakenly try to rebut you dialectically, and most will ignore you. Poor Jibril, you just can't get no respect. Hey, evil right wing racists gonna raciss. Whatcha gonna do?

Blogger Mr.MantraMan December 16, 2015 10:16 AM  

The Caliph has a vote in internal D party politics, but if they can accommodate the violent BLM they probably think jihadis are another flavor of vibrancy

Anonymous Roundtine December 16, 2015 10:18 AM  

If America was a proposition nation, wouldn't that mean people who don't believe in the proposition aren't Americans? That would be all of the ideological left and most of the recent immigrants. If we did have fascism in America, it might come in this form. Your Facebook posts calling for gun control, violation of freedom of association, violation of 4th amendement, calling for theft via taxation etc. are all the evidence needed to find you are not an American.

Blogger kmbr December 16, 2015 10:25 AM  

**The only way Trump could've insulted him more was to toss his dwarf wife across the stage.**

What is funny about all this--it never paid off (and I am convinced it was calculated like most of their marriages are). He's stuck with her. Destroyed the mutant Bush bloodline, has degenerate kids and she's a shop-a-holic, classless liability to boot.

Shoulda stuck with the librarian like GWB. At least his family pictures were something to be proud of. (and he was the dumb one)

Anonymous Kudos The Lexecutioner December 16, 2015 10:26 AM  

A line on a map where a border exists is there for a reason. For the open-borders crowd: what's the purpose of having a nation like the United States, if you're going to turn it into one like Zimbabwe?

Blogger Mr.MantraMan December 16, 2015 10:29 AM  

Blank Slater sighted how awesome is that a blesser of magic dirt

Anonymous Adam1 December 16, 2015 10:40 AM  

If Trump isn`t on the ticket next fall, I`m doing a write-in:V.PUTIN. BTW Vox, recall the white woman burned to death in north Mississippi last year? There`s been a break in the case with 17 arrests of Vice Lord members yesterday with more to follow. Seems she was a member but tried to get out. Unsuccessfully.

Anonymous Hezekiah Garrett December 16, 2015 10:50 AM  

'Founding a nation on the enslavement of Africans and writing their lesser value into the Constitution may be America's Original Sin.'

When you say ignorant things, you leave people with the impression you're ignorant. And I assume you must be breathtakingly ignorant, because you'd prefer a nation that skewed its representative democracy to FAVOR slaveholders.

Anonymous Mr. Rational December 16, 2015 10:52 AM  

@29 Chattel slavery was actually one of the earliest, if not THE earliest, legal establishments of multiculturalism in the British colonies.  When Anthony Johnson sued to be declared owner-for-life of one John Casor because of Johnson's African traditions (Johnson had been brought to America, his passage paid by selling his indenture which he worked off), the court found in his favor.  Had the court REFUSED to defer to African culture there would have been no chattel slavery and thus no "peculiar institution" requiring North-South compromises 134 years later.

Anonymous WelshAmerican December 16, 2015 10:52 AM  

"Invaded by 60 million..."

We are all invaders in a land where words have no meaning.

There has been no invasion of America. Use of the word tenders your position meaningless...much like most of Trumps ideas. Get back to me when you have a real argument and when Trump can figure out what a nuclear Triad is.

Anonymous Olof the Impalet December 16, 2015 10:58 AM  

"They never became Real Americans (Irish and Italians)"

This is how you know you have no credibility and ought to take care not to hurt yourself.

Blogger Danby December 16, 2015 11:00 AM  

The founding stock of England was the Germans (Angles, Saxones) Nords (Danes, vikings, Normans), and Celts (Welsh, Picts, Cornubii, Pretanni). So other ethnicities can and do fit in sometimes.

The problem is mostly how both the English and the other ethnicites have changed over history. The Germans, have, for instance, gotten more communalist. The Celts never got less clannish. And American has had a separate history from the English for a while now, so there's some disjoint there.

Large quanitites of Irish immigration did not destroy America because the Irish spoke the language already and did not need to change all that much. The Italians kinda fit in almost. That's why most of them went back after the reunification of Italy. The Jews have never fit in, and have nearly destroyed the country by taking over the means of communication and Academe. The Mexicans and Arabs and Chinese have no intention of fitting in. They intend to either use the US as a neutral territory in their own never-ending wars and revolutions, or to take over.

Blogger J.M. December 16, 2015 11:03 AM  

@Rumpole

The point is, all the polyglot groups you mention have done injury to the culture that produced the Declaration, and the Constitution. This is so because they are culturally, and probably genetically, at variance with the underpinnings of our basic governmental elements, Viz: English Commonlaw, the rights of Englishmen, rights endowed by a transcendent Creator, personal liberty and personal responsibility.

The reason that fewer people enjoy these benefits in other countries is because the people themselves are constitutionally incapable of understanding and applying them. The more foreign people we bring in here, the more we dilute the basic human founder component that has given us this wonderful culture we enjoy, and the more screwed up the USA will become. Cut off immigration now.


If your thesis was correct, England would be a beacon of freedom and Scotland would be the land of the free and the brave, a real libertarian paradise. Both of these countries have had far less immigration than the US and both were totalitarian and socialist were before the new wave of imports (2010 onwards). Dito for Australia and New Zealand. The reason for the progress of the U.S. is not to be found in genetics alone but in the culture and lessons learned (you would do well to read "of the Plymouth Plantation" to understand what I mean) in the new World, as well as a rich foundation for the rule of Law that goes well beyond the Reformation (Magna Carta anyone?).

Blogger Were-Puppy December 16, 2015 11:04 AM  

@17 Nate

Jeb comes across in the worst possible way. He comes across as entitled.

---

It was funny because Bush was the only guy going after Trump for the longest time. Unfortunate for him, he came across as being a petulant brat than a serious challenger.

One of Trumps best lines "I'm at 42, you're at 3" :P

Blogger dc.sunsets December 16, 2015 11:10 AM  

I see lots of Blank-Slaters (Magic Dirt adherents?) showed up for this one. @47 @46

As I understand it, identical twins raised in diametrically different households still exhibit astonishingly similar culture, even political beliefs (which then may be utterly different from those of their childhood environment.)

If this is so, then immigration-then-assimilation is Flat-Earth-Level fantasy.

I find it jaw-dropping that people point to waves of European immigration 100 years ago and from that extrapolate as harmless (even good!) even vaster waves of immigration from places that are completely culturally alien to the very system on which their living standards rest.

All empirical observation of culturally alien immigration these past 20 years reveals how absurd is this belief in assimilation. People who cling to this model are self-revealed morons.

Anonymous Olof the Impaler December 16, 2015 11:10 AM  

Danby says Jews have nearly destroyed America. No one let him cross the street without a handhold. He will likely get killed following the nearest shiny object.

People who think Jews are a problem help us define the real problem by self identifying. Also, your bitter Envy is showing, Danby.

OpenID sigbouncer December 16, 2015 11:16 AM  

"I'd thought the purpose of this last minute debate was for the GOP to take down Trump. Wrong call. It was knock Cruz down below Rubio."


Rubio is a balding sock puppet.


Blogger Were-Puppy December 16, 2015 11:20 AM  

I wish the following would drop out of the race immediately:
Lindsey Graham
Pataki
Kasich
Fiorina

Next on the chopping block:
Christie
Rubio
Paul
Carson maybe

Blogger Were-Puppy December 16, 2015 11:20 AM  

Doh - left out Bush

Anonymous That Would Be Telling December 16, 2015 11:30 AM  

@47: Olof the Impalet:

"They never became Real Americans (Irish and Italians)"

This is how you know you have no credibility and ought to take care not to hurt yourself.


Your bald assertion might have the tinniest bit of credibility if, you know, it wasn't just an assertion and addressed at least one of the two points I bought up to support the statement.

Blogger pyrrhus December 16, 2015 11:31 AM  

"Anyone can be an American if they adopt the culture (including learning the common language)."

No, and that's why Nikki Haley and Bobby Jindal turned out not to be real Americans....they don't get it.

Blogger Cogitans Iuvenis December 16, 2015 11:31 AM  

@34

Uhuh....

Blogger pyrrhus December 16, 2015 11:34 AM  

@51 Yes, science has now determined that all behavior is substantially genetic, 50% on average, so the Magic Dirt is pretty useless....

Anonymous Hobbit with a Rock December 16, 2015 11:36 AM  

Yet CNN's headline is "Trump, Bush, and Cruz were among winners of GOP debate" followed by statements in the article like "Appearing confident, Bush repeatedly engaged front-runner Donald Trump and at times flustered the real estate mogul." Did they reverse the names? That's not the debate I saw. Bush was pitifully whiny and was flustered--and actually stuttering--numerous times. I was almost embarrassed for him. This is just one more piece of evidence confirming the mainstream media is a complete joke and is following a script.

Blogger Danby December 16, 2015 11:37 AM  

People who think Jews are a problem help us define the real problem by self identifying. Also, your bitter Envy is showing, Danby.

Jews can never be a problem! and are provably not a problem now! Because mumble mumble mumble 6 millino mumble mumble Nazi!

Seriously guy, look at the world and think for 30 seconds. It would do you a world of good.

Anonymous Olof the Impaler December 16, 2015 11:41 AM  

Would Be,

Make a point and you will have your respectful response. Even suggesting that a fifth generation Natiral born citizen with Irish or Otslian blood only gets a sneer. Because...stupid

OpenID denektenorsk December 16, 2015 11:46 AM  

My favourite thing on the internet today "Queen Cacklepants" (WRT Shillary).

Blogger Were-Puppy December 16, 2015 11:54 AM  

Hillary is a target rich mocking environment!

Blogger Mr.MantraMan December 16, 2015 11:55 AM  

Denninger at his blog has what he thinks is political dynamite dealing with some ISIS Internet dealings

Blogger bob k. mando December 16, 2015 11:57 AM  

52. Olof the Impaler December 16, 2015 11:10 AM
Danby says Jews have nearly destroyed America. No one let him cross the street without a handhold. He will likely get killed following the nearest shiny object.

People who think Jews are a problem help us define the real problem by self identifying. Also, your bitter Envy is showing, Danby.




oh, snap. newbie done tole Danby.

[ head shimmy ]


hey Olof, are those mukluks you're wearing?


Anonymous Olof the Impaler December 16, 2015 11:58 AM  

Danby,
Can we agree that different Americans contribute to the country in different ways. Can we further agree that the definition of am "American" is not "whatever crazy thought Danby has"?

Anonymous patrick kelly December 16, 2015 11:59 AM  

@34 @56

Irish, Italian etc. *immigration* into the US should have been more limited, if not eliminated.

I say this as someone who's Micksican ancestors likely would not have become US citizens as a result. Lucky me.

However, the Irish, Scots, Germans etc. who journeyed here as settlers, explorers, conquerors helped create the real American nation and their prosperity ended up losing it to the immigrant hordes and their enablers by letting too many in too fast in the name of their poisoned, enlightened, multicultural, diversity Utopian fantasies.

America is dead, long live America !!

OpenID elijahrhodes December 16, 2015 12:15 PM  

"I was raised to believe that America was a diverse nation of many cultures, unified by a belief in representative democracy, civil liberties, and equal rights for all. That there's room for all different kinds of people."

This is such a deeply pervasive view among Americans that I don't see how it can possibly be dislodged short of large populations of vibrants declaring outright war. And even then, once enough people of a given race control a chunk of land, it will be very messy to drive them out. Do Americans have the fortitude necessary to do that? Once upon a time, maybe. The safe bet is that100 years from now the American land mass will be home to several separate countries.

Blogger bob k. mando December 16, 2015 12:15 PM  

67. Olof the Impaler December 16, 2015 11:58 AM
Danby,
Can we agree that different Americans contribute to the country in different ways.




sho nuff, chief.

as a for instance, Muslim immigrants do the mayhem and bombing that Americans

just.

won't.

do.


i'm leaving "rape" off that list because ... black America pretty much has that covered. not much point in having a Rotherham here when we've already got, oh, i dunno, every inner big city in the country.


and Jewish immigrants do all of their racial discrimination over in Israel.

you know, where they've got a wall. and won't let the Palestinians enrich their culture.

so, SO rayciss.

Blogger Danby December 16, 2015 12:17 PM  

@Olof,
Can we agree that you're an historically illiterate ass-bozo who believes everything he's told by those in authority, without question or pause, and has never even considered disagreeing with the official story?

Can we further agree that the word American has an actual meaning beyond "Someone who is located between the Canadian and Mexican borders"?

Blogger VD December 16, 2015 12:18 PM  

People who think Jews are a problem help us define the real problem by self identifying.

Spare us your lame childish rhetoric. You're in considerably over your head here. Every people are a problem when they are living and pursuing their own interests in someone else's nation.

Blogger VD December 16, 2015 12:20 PM  

This is such a deeply pervasive view among Americans that I don't see how it can possibly be dislodged short of large populations of vibrants declaring outright war.

Exactly. You'd probably need something like 60 million invaders or more pursuing the usual ethnic identity politics... oh, wait a minute!

Remember, many German Jews considered themselves Germans, not Jews, until their identity was thrust upon them. So it will be with whites in the USA.

Blogger VD December 16, 2015 12:21 PM  

If this is so, then immigration-then-assimilation is Flat-Earth-Level fantasy.

Exactly. It is.

Blogger Sevron December 16, 2015 12:31 PM  

Why is anybody responding to Olof with anything other than scornful rhetoric? He hasn't proved he's even capable of reading dialectic, much less producing any. I'm pretty sure a guy wrote a book about that recently.

Anonymous KoranBurningFaggot December 16, 2015 12:36 PM  

49JMIf your thesis was correct, England would be a beacon of freedom and Scotland would be the land of the free and the brave, a real libertarian

All of the nails that stood, up fled to the US. You might not like San Fran people having sex in the streets, but your local sex on the street guy fled to San Fran.

There are 6 billion people whose standard of living is way below that of the USA.

That's below living on welfare in the US

Bush cannot get it right. He put all his energy into going at it with Trump and came out looking more impotent than ever.

Obviously you have not seen him with his wife.

The Republic of Atzlan or Republica Del Norte are bound to form if nothing changes.

So no more welfare money going there? Silicone Valley the next Detroit but without federal funding?

Vox. The United States is culture-based, instead of genetically-based, to a far greater extent than most nations

Someone has never been to the Southern Border. There is literally a line where maintenance of streets & infrastructure stop. Evolution didn't stop at the neck.

Anonymous Frank Brady December 16, 2015 1:46 PM  

Generations of Americans have been taught that the words "state" and "nation" mean the same thing. They do not. As has often been pointed out here by Vox and others, failure to understand the distinction is the root cause of many problems.

A state is a self-governing political entity.

A nation is a group of people who share a common culture.

Globalists have deceived the American people into believing that the political state (the United States) was under attack when, in fact, the political state is being used to overtly attack and destroy the American nation. Elections cannot fix this problem..

Anonymous Olof the Impaler December 16, 2015 2:04 PM  

"If this is so, then immigration-then-assimilation is Flat-Earth-Level fantasy."

One problem. We have proof that immigration then assimilation works. It's the past 300+ years in America.

Who assimilated?

Catholics, Jews, Irish, Germans, Russians, Poles, Italians, Mexicans, French, Spanish, Turks.

Assimilation isn't a failure if a decedent of immigrants doesn't agree with your politics no matter how many times you or others propose such an illogical premise.

Blogger SciVo December 16, 2015 2:23 PM  

@ Donte Jibril: I was raised to believe that America was a diverse nation of many cultures, unified by a belief in representative democracy, civil liberties, and equal rights for all. That there's room for all different kinds of people.

Well, since we've always paused immigration when the cultures got too diverse, our representative democracy has been thoroughly subverted by lobbying to the point of illegitimacy, our elites are panting eagerly at every opportunity to chip away at our civil liberties, and equal rights have never been anything more than a vague aspiration, why do believe that any of your other childhood fables are real?

Here, this might help: Further Thoughts on 'Diversity' and the Ritual Suicide of American Culture

Blogger James Dixon December 16, 2015 2:30 PM  

> One problem. We have proof that immigration then assimilation works. It's the past 300+ years in America.

> Catholics, Jews, Irish, Germans, Russians, Poles, Italians, Mexicans, French, Spanish, Turks.

I guess that's why Clarksburg, WV still has an Italian Heritage festival every year. Because they're so assimilated.

Blogger haus frau December 16, 2015 2:47 PM  

"Can we agree that different Americans contribute to the country in different ways."

Sure we can.
Mexicans contribute drunk drivers and pedophiles.
Jews contribute cultural marxism.
Muslims contribute rapists and sectarian bloodshed.
We can go on down that list all day.

"One problem. We have proof that immigration then assimilation works. It's the past 300+ years in America."
Yeah, you haven't been reading at all. If those groups had fully assimilated we wouldn't be at the pass we are now; a bankrupt, socialist empire.

Blogger Nick S December 16, 2015 2:56 PM  

Assimilation isn't a failure if a decedent of immigrants doesn't agree with your politics no matter how many times you or others propose such an illogical premise.

No one here has proposed such a premise.

Blogger rycamor December 16, 2015 2:56 PM  

@80, and this idiot doesn't grasp that there are such things as proportions and ranges involved. The most "successfully" integrated were those cultures who weren't too far from British. There have not been truly large numbers of "Turks" integrated in our society.

Blogger SciVo December 16, 2015 2:56 PM  

@ Olof the Impaler: Assimilation isn't a failure if a decedent of immigrants doesn't agree with your politics no matter how many times you or others propose such an illogical premise.

You igonorant fool. Polls and public statements make it clear that many Africans, Hispanics, Arabs, Indians (dot not feather), etcetera, don't just disagree with the principles found in our founding documents; they're literally incapable of comprehending the concept of God-given inalienable rights.

And I'm talking about the ones born and raised here. They literally cannot comprehend the difference between a right and a privilege, because they can't conceive of a right that the government can't infringe. They read the words and think it's just poetic hyperbole.

There can be no proposition nation without agreement on the proposition, and you can't get that with HBD that extends to the brain.

Blogger Unknown December 16, 2015 2:57 PM  

@78. No. Some may have assimilated - there are outliers in every group. In general, no.

My wife is foreign-born, a Christian, speaks near-perfect English and doesn't hang out with her former countrymen. She will never be fully assimilated. Too many of her assumptions, habits and attitudes are too different than ours. Some of that stuff is formed in childhood or before, and doesn't change. Our children may wind up Americans, but if they do it will be because of deliberate efforts by me and my wife.

Blogger haus frau December 16, 2015 3:07 PM  

"Assimilation isn't a failure if a decedent of immigrants doesn't agree with your politics no matter how many times you or others propose such an illogical premise."

Assimilation: the process of adapting or adjusting to the culture of a group or nation, or the state of being so adapted.

If the new peoples being assimilated do not internalize the rights of the Englishman that our founding documents are based on and the necessity of limited government then they are not assimilated. It's really that simple. So yes, political views matter. If Chinese communist comes over here and starts agitating for communism then they damn well aren't American even if they really like cheeseburgers and pizza and talk like John Wayne.

Blogger rycamor December 16, 2015 3:09 PM  

Those who are fixated on the various policies espoused by the different candidates are failing to grasp the situation: America is not a given. And after being invaded by 60 million foreigners, America is already not America.

Yeah, as much as I dislike Trump and doubt that his word counts for anything, it's a judgement call: either you can a) hope that this time there is a candidate whose policies and ideals don't deviate too far from your own, and that the usual partisan cheering somehow this might make a small difference, THIS time, or
b) hope that there is something different going on which goes beyond policies and such, and is about the question of whether the USA can regain some cohesion as a nation. and stand up for herself.

Either approach represents hope, in the face of all odds and evidence.

If you are looking for b), then the only guy in the room is Trump. The other guys represent various amounts of been-there-done-that or in the case of Rand, just expecting too much of the clueless voter to even grasp.

It's insane that this is where we have arrived, and Trump is the best we have for a renewed nationalism, but there it is.

I think that at this point Trump has already accomplished something, and it might be that whether he gets elected or not is insignificant in the face of what has already happened.

Blogger Sheila4g December 16, 2015 3:13 PM  

@78 - Let me second House Frau. By the by, argument by assertion doesn't pass muster here. Per The American College Dictionary of 1947 (which my father bought used and I utilize to this day), assimilation can mean to become absorbed or to become like or resemble. If wearing jeans, eating pizza, and being born on magic dirt renders one an American, then sure - "assimilation" meaning to resemble worked. As far as absorption, however, I proffer the wisdom of Kipling here: "But I cannot tell what powers control -- what reasons sway his mood; Nor when the Gods of his far-off land shall repossess his blood."

Anonymous Diego Destiny December 16, 2015 3:34 PM  

It's also significant, @87, that for the first time (to the utter dismay of the Washington cuckservatives) Cruz uttered the phrase Americans First. The closer Cruz gets to tentatively adopting Trump's positions the higher he goes in the polls. I'm reluctantly in the Trump camp because if he does even half of what he has promised to do on immigration it will be more than any other president in the last 50 years.

Blogger Were-Puppy December 16, 2015 3:37 PM  

@78 Olof the Impaler

One problem. We have proof that immigration then assimilation works. It's the past 300+ years in America.

Who assimilated?
---

I don't know. Let's find some Native Americans and ask them. Oh wait, they're mostly gone...

Now, remove the word Native from the above statement.

Blogger rycamor December 16, 2015 3:45 PM  

What it looks like to me: Trump represents Vox's last hope that American nationalism can reassert itself without significant violence and fracture.

Me, I doubt whether a political solution will do it. Did you hear all the idiots cheering at the GOP debates last night at the idea of bombing Russia? Really? At this hour of our culture? Doomed... I'm thinking.

Anonymous Olof the Impalet December 16, 2015 4:15 PM  

"I guess that's why Clarksburg, WV still has an Italian Heritage festival every year. Because they're so assimilated."

As we all know, as Clarksburg, WV goes, so goes the Italuan Americans.

Anyone who seriously puts up an ethnic heritage festival as proof of non assimilation has failed to understand that Americans have been celebrating their ethnic heritage since the first Angola immigrants came to the country.

Also, make the case, please that a once per year celebration of Italian heritage = non assimilation. My little boy wanted a definition of "idiotic". You'll do.

Blogger Were-Puppy December 16, 2015 4:15 PM  

That audience had to have been 100% plants. It was ridiculous and hilarious. I wouldn't think of them as representative of anything but the GOPe.

Blogger rycamor December 16, 2015 4:18 PM  

@92 I'm not making that case, if you're pointing at me. The case I'm making is that assimilation is far easier for similar cultures. What a thought. And even then, it produced all kinds of undesirable changes. Assimilation of non-Anglo peoples did bring many non-Anglo ideas, most of which involved bigger government and fewer individual liberties. No assimilation is without impact, period.

Blogger haus frau December 16, 2015 4:25 PM  

@93 "That audience had to have been 100% plants. It was ridiculous and hilarious. I wouldn't think of them as representative of anything but the GOPe"
It takes a lots of work to prop up someone as lacking in charisma as Jeb. Rubio is good looking and doesn't speak like he's been gelded but his blatant neoconservativism is far out of line with much of the base. I can't see any other way bating WWIII with Russia wouldn't be booed than that they packed the audience with campaign staff.

Blogger Dragon fang December 16, 2015 4:33 PM  

What is the difference between SJW's victomhood + identity politics and the one by Trump's supporters?

Anonymous Diego Destiny December 16, 2015 4:37 PM  

Immigrants have not assimilated. The entire country is pressing "1" for Spanish and government signs are being printed in Spanish among other things.

Blogger VD December 16, 2015 4:38 PM  

Assimilation isn't a failure if a decedent of immigrants doesn't agree with your politics no matter how many times you or others propose such an illogical premise.

It's not about our politics, it's about the Founders' politics. And yes, there is no assimilation if immigrants refuse to accept things like freedom of association and limited government. The second wave of immigrants never fully assimilated.

Anonymous BigGaySteve December 16, 2015 4:47 PM  

88 78 If Chinese communist comes over here and starts agitating for communism then they damn well aren't American even if they really like having sex on the street, collecting welfare and smoking pot. FIFY

The entire country is pressing "1" for Spanish and government signs are being printed in Spanish among other things

The illegals can not even read Spanish. That's why there is a big push for white people to learn Spanish instead of languages that drive the world like Japanese, Mandarin, German and Russian. If you want to advance business learn the last ones, learn Spanish if your job is to hand out free stuff paid for by Asian/white taxpayers.

Anonymous Olof the Impaler December 16, 2015 5:04 PM  

"It's not about our politics, it's about the Founders' politics"

This is a good example of why some people shouldn't be allowed to talk about history.

You meant to say "ideals", not "politics".. If politics and not ideals were the standard then we could say the Founders never assimilated.

You would do well to contemplate why there are multiple ways to amend the constitution in that very document. Or to consider why religious tests are not allowed. Or why no mention is given to ethnicity.

Also, I see Freedom of association Is the new "states rights".

But your biggest asshat move is suggesting that 2016 could so perfectly resemble the mid 18th century. This marks you as an incompetent.

Anonymous Bukulu December 16, 2015 5:37 PM  

SciVo @ 84,

Here's some good old English hyperbole for you!

"e poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail — its roof may shake — the wind may blow through it — the storm may enter — the rain may enter — but the King of England cannot enter — all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement!"

--Pitt the Elder

Blogger Danby December 16, 2015 5:38 PM  

Oh look, Olof learned how to spell his own name! Ain't he just precious?

Anonymous redsash December 16, 2015 5:52 PM  

Pay Attention! English and Scotch-Irish settlers, seeking new beginnings where they were free to live, raise their children as they saw fit, and live out their faith (Christianity w/o catholic and church of England influence).

Add to this forests and hostile natives where pioneers set back to back just to talk or eat in safety.

This produced America.

Irish and Jews assimilated? Fools, the lot of you. I give you Ted Kennedy and George Soros, four SC Justices, and every Jew in Congress trying to take my guns and steal my wealth.

Blogger haus frau December 16, 2015 7:23 PM  

"You meant to say "ideals", not "politics".."

Nice. Telling Vox was he REALLY meant. That's one hell of a spergilicious gamma flare you got goin' on there son.

Blogger Desiderius December 16, 2015 7:34 PM  

Bukulu @ 101,

Reminds me of Burns:

To make a happy fireside clime
To weans and wife,
That's the true pathos and sublime
Of human life.

Anonymous Olof December 16, 2015 7:37 PM  

Do you think he could have really meant the Founders' "politics". Ha!! That' doesn't bode well.

Anonymous Olof December 16, 2015 7:42 PM  

"This produced America."

Yep...along with chattel slavey, merchant banks, a Constitution that imagined much larger government and yes, eating back to back.

Blogger Azimus December 16, 2015 7:44 PM  

VD:
The problem, of course, is that far too many Americans have been convinced that their country is nothing more than an idea. A "proposition nation". Which is to say that it doesn't exist at all.


Not 'nothing more than an idea,' but certainly ideas are involved. For a bunch of random whites to gather together in prehistoric times, there had to be something causing them to gather together, other than the fact they were white. Simple cameraderie can form a band, mere attraction can form a family, but to grow any bigger than that, to become "Saxon" or "Frankish" or "Alemanni" or "Vandal" etc., required some ideas about origins, property, rights, and so forth held in common. The founding of a culture is based on ideas, the genetic type forms and stabilize later. War, geography, and a host of other factors all come into play, but for a culture to seed, sprout, and grow people have to agree on some fundamental ideas.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother December 16, 2015 7:45 PM  

I like "Impalet" better. Warns us of the thermonuclear intellect in time to deploy Geiger counters.

Anonymous redsash December 16, 2015 8:45 PM  

Jamestown became the first permanent English American settlement in 1607. The U.S. Constitution was signed on the 17th day of September in the year of OUR Lord 1787. 180 years of English custom and common law. When my kin grossed the Appalachians, they did so w/o slaves or banks or Constitutions. We were our own law then, and you WILL shortly experience our own law again. As Hitler said, "next time - no more Mr. nice guy".

Anonymous vfm #0202 December 16, 2015 9:16 PM  

@108 A group culture can prosper and become more intensely itself as its genetics and memetics support one another in a co-evolutionary virtuous cycle. Another way to say that is that if there's a large subset of the group of which this is true, it will come to dominate and eventually absorb or extinguish other groups. If there are several such subsets, they may draw apart into separate communities and war intermittently rather than constantly.

There's a lovely algorithm called "Mean Shift" where each item moves towards the average of its local group. When the items are color points in an image, the image becomes cartoony, with large areas of homogeneous colors. It's like watching the idea of "green" emerge from meaningless data.

Blogger Retrenched December 16, 2015 9:17 PM  

If everyone in the world has a right to move to your country then you dont have a country. Similarly, if everyone in town has a right to sleep on your couch, eat your food and watch your TV, then it isn't your home.

Blogger SciVo December 16, 2015 11:48 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger SciVo December 17, 2015 12:28 AM  

@ Bukula:

That is some quality poetic hyperbole! Though I be less than an eighth English, my soul is stirred.

Blogger SciVo December 17, 2015 12:47 AM  

@ Dragon fang:

I reject your premise and will explain something to you anyway. SJWs promote inchoate violence from a sense of helplessness or self-loathing. People like me promote peaceful subversion from confidence and resentment of betrayal.

Pick your winner.

Blogger Samuel Nock December 17, 2015 1:05 AM  

As Trump gains traction, there is a real uptick in establishment types voicing the "if we use their tactics, we're as bad as they are" rhetoric.

Questioning Trump on his proposal to restrict Internet access between certain regions and the U.S. to prevent ISIS from recruiting, Wolf Blitzer said "doing something like that would put us in the same camp as China and North Korea."

The tendency to use this "we're no better than them if we use the same tactic" is the mark of an truly middling intelligence.

It is a rhetorical method that makes the person employing it feel both intelligent (profound) and morally serious and superior. In fact, it marks the suspension of thought and analysis, and is a puerile and sophomoric type of moral thinking.

Blogger SciVo December 17, 2015 3:23 AM  

Well, then let's make a counter...

Vlad the Impaler stopped an Islamist invasion. The least we can do is impale their social media posts.

Blogger SciVo December 17, 2015 4:50 AM  

Olof the Impaler @100: "It's not about our politics, it's about the Founders' politics"

This is a good example of why some people shouldn't be allowed to talk about history.


I'm going to fisk this drunk, because that's how much contempt I have for you. And here you're displaying how despite not having demonstrated any actual knowledge of history, you're going to pose like an anime schoolgirl and lift your skirt and flash a V-sign for no particular reason.

You meant to say "ideals", not "politics".. If politics and not ideals were the standard then we could say the Founders never assimilated.

You just contradicted yourself in a way. In fact it's quite uncontroversial to say that the Founders were either unassimilated or quite too multicultural, because slavery. But you're too retarded to make that point. You're trying to say that the Founders were either homogeneous or unintelligent, which is a case that you're not smart enough to make.

You would do well to contemplate why there are multiple ways to amend the constitution in that very document. Or to consider why religious tests are not allowed. Or why no mention is given to ethnicity.

If you were half as smart as you think you are, then you would realize that everything you just said is either irrelevant, questionable or irrelevant.

Also, I see Freedom of association Is the new "states rights".

Thank you for finally recognizing that the one inalienable right necessarily leads to the other. You could make a good Confederate yet.

Blogger Student in Blue December 17, 2015 9:22 AM  

@Olof
Also, I see Freedom of association Is the new "states rights".

"I want to force people to be friends with, and do business with, whoever I say.

In no way is this totalitarianism."

Also it's cute how you assume everything's about genociding the blacks or whatever you're convinced "freedom of association" is really about.

Blogger James Dixon December 19, 2015 6:44 AM  

> Also, make the case, please that a once per year celebration of Italian heritage = non assimilation.

Sure. right after I make the case that water is wet. If you refuse to see the obvious, no one can make you do so.

> My little boy wanted a definition of "idiotic". You'll do.

Why bother when he's got your example right in front of him every day.

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