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Wednesday, January 27, 2016

A predictable outcome

The Oregon Militia situation finally turned lethal:
“I want the world to know how my father was murdered today. His hands were in the air and he was shot in the face by the American authorities. Ammon Bundy reported there are 6 witnesses to this evil.”
Posted by Thara Tenney on Tuesday, January 26, 2016

Her testimony was echoed by another eyewitness, Victoria Sharp, who was in the car with Finicum when the group were pulled over by cops and federal agents. Sharp claims that Finicum put his hands out of the car window and asked the police to allow the women to leave the car.

“They shot at him, but they missed him,” said Sharp, adding that the group then attempted to drive away in the car but were shot at again by police.

“When we crashed and stopped for a second, he got out of the car, he had his hands in the air, he’s like ‘just shoot me then’….and they did, they shot him dead,” said Sharp.

“He was just walking, with his hands in the air, I swear to God, and they shot him dead and after he was down on the ground, shot him three more times,” said Sharp, adding that the vehicle was again “bombarded with bullets” as well as tear gas rounds.

Sharp says that the group tried to “find something white” so they could display it as a sign of surrender. She challenges news reports that only six shots were fired, asserting, “they shot at least 120 shots altogether.”

Sharp also claims that none of the individuals in the car pulled out a gun at any point and that the incident was an “ambush” with “FBI snipers in the trees” surrounding the vehicle.
Whatever. I have no idea what these people were thinking they were going to accomplish by occupying a wildlife refuge center, but I can testify, from my father's experience, that no one is going to "wake up" and no one is going to be inspired to do anything as a result of it. They're just going to be vilified, jailed, and forgotten.

It's like a tragic parody. And notice that the moment the government took action, they tried to surrender. Never play or posture at violence. And never threaten violence unless you are fully prepared for your enemy to resort to it.

Labels: ,

210 Comments:

1 – 200 of 210 Newer› Newest»
Blogger swiftfoxmark2 January 27, 2016 8:52 AM  

At the very least, it serves as a lesson to people who engage in militia activities: shoot the cops without hesitation.

Otherwise, you're dead.

Blogger CDM January 27, 2016 8:54 AM  

The last time Americans tried to resist and fight back against federal tyranny started on December 20, 1861 and ended on April 9, 1865 with Lee's surrender. He later regretted doing so seeing what D.C. would do to the South via reconstruction. The USA has been long dead.

Blogger VD January 27, 2016 8:54 AM  

At the very least, it serves as a lesson to people who engage in militia activities: shoot the cops without hesitation.

Or, you know, don't engage in them in the first place. All they are is a form of rhetorical posturing. It's ridiculous.

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 January 27, 2016 8:56 AM  

Or, you know, don't engage in them in the first place. All they are is a form of rhetorical posturing. It's ridiculous.

Of definitely. I'm not encouraging such extreme actions unless you are willing to kill LEOs.

Which most people, myself included, are unwilling to do.

Blogger skiballa January 27, 2016 9:04 AM  

Yes, using a take and hold strategy against the gov't is asinine. I see a lot of posturing from IIIper and militia types on other sites, I'm content to just wait, no need to dash yourself against the rocks of gov't force. Getting yourself killed for your principles is great and all, but I'd like to see my kids grow up, and I'll continue to prepare them for what comes after USG goes away.

Blogger skiballa January 27, 2016 9:10 AM  

Here's a lesson on what kills 4GW, trying to hold territory against stronger opposing force is a no no.

It's also a lesson on future time preference, they were not content to wait, confrontation had to be forced. This can also be an argument that they were pulled into it by agents provocateur, which seems to be SOP.

Blogger Nate January 27, 2016 9:11 AM  

There is so much context being lost here. Look at the big picture here people.

The government was in a very tough spot. Militias all over america have a simple principle. No More Free Wacos.

The threat is plain. The next time a Waco happens... feds start dying. Period. Does anyone think the feds aren't still paying attention to that threat? Lots of people were calling for the feds to go in guns blazing. They didn't. The feds played this very cool and very professionally.

Frankly I'm impressed.

I was never impressed with these half-wits in Burns and frankly, like many others, I'm half-convinced it was a government op to begin with.

Blogger Nate January 27, 2016 9:14 AM  

"Here's a lesson on what kills 4GW, trying to hold territory against stronger opposing force is a no no."

You're assuming that holding the spot was a strategic goal. I'm not sure it was. I think it was a Judas Maneuver... they wanted to get Waco'd there-vy forcing the militias to start shooting feds and bringing about an actual civil war.

delusions of grandeur... as always.

Blogger Nate January 27, 2016 9:15 AM  

"All they are is a form of rhetorical posturing."

really?

I bet the BLM disagrees.

Blogger Emmanuel Mateo-Morales January 27, 2016 9:24 AM  

Wasn't Vox saying good things about the occupation back when it was new?

Blogger Student in Blue January 27, 2016 9:26 AM  

Wasn't Vox saying good things about the occupation back when it was new?

I remember at best he was saying neutral things about it in the posts, whereas in the comments he was leaning more negative as to just how effective it would be.

Blogger FP January 27, 2016 9:26 AM  

Supposedly the group at the refuge got some intel from files stored there. Lots of rumors going around about deals for minerals, including uranium in the area, links to Hilldog selling out to russian mining company etc..

Bundy and co. were on the road to go meet with the grant county sheriff and others at a community meeting. Looks like a complete setup if true and this witness info (who they let go?). FBI is moving now on the few who've said they're staying at the refuge. Others have agreed to pack up and go.

https://readfomag.com/2016/01/breaking-ammon-bundy-in-fbi-custody/

Blogger skiballa January 27, 2016 9:30 AM  

@8

Nate, that's true enough, they may well have been aiming for a valiant last stand. In which case, yes, the gov't did well (from a public eye
perspective) by using a bit of restraint.

It remains to be seen how much restraint was actually used, because some of the info coming out is kind of damning. I predict another episode of subterfuge and foot dragging a la the TX biker shoot-out.

Blogger ZhukovG January 27, 2016 9:31 AM  

The real revolutionaries are not the poor slobs dying on barricades

Blogger Humpty Dumpty #4464 January 27, 2016 9:32 AM  


Frankly I'm impressed.


Sort of. They waited them out, but then ended up killing one anyway. Who knows what really happened, but even if it happened exactly like the witnesses said it did, it's guaranteed that no feds will ever see jail time. Or, unemployment time for that matter.

Blogger Emmanuel Mateo-Morales January 27, 2016 9:33 AM  

@11

Okay, thanks for the clarification.

Anonymous RC January 27, 2016 9:33 AM  

I did not see the logic in the Bundy's maneuvers, but why did the feds even care? Why not let this one just burn out over time? Were they really going to stay there for six months? A year? No action by the feds would have made Bundy look hapless when he and his followers went home from boredom. This stated, killing one man is only going to add to the Waco narrative. Either bring them in without injury making the Bundy's look like hapless clowns or kill them all and then control the narrative.

Blogger Sean January 27, 2016 9:35 AM  

If these doofuses had done this properly, it could have been a useful exercise.

1) Ensure enough supplies
2) Ensure a communications pipeline
3) issue a prewritten statement of intent
4) issue a manifesto of grievances and demands for redress

All this must be done in the understanding that the mainstream media does not support you. It must also be done knowing that the siege will eventually end and you will arrested.

The purpose of these gestures is to bring attention to important issues is a way that cannot be ignored. They are not going to be the spark of any rebellion.

Blogger VD January 27, 2016 9:46 AM  

This is what I mean about rhetorical posturing. After the news broke, someone posted on Facebook that "this country is going to explode" because one of the men was shot and killed.

No, it's not. In fact, even the guy who posted that isn't going to lift a finger over it, except perhaps to Like a Facebook post or two.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother January 27, 2016 9:52 AM  

We'll see. No one will do anything about it, until someone does.

Anonymous That Would Be Telling January 27, 2016 9:53 AM  

A long time ago, '80s as I recall back when survivalism was a thing (as you can see in Lucifer's Hammer and Footfall), Jerry Pournelle, former battery commander in the Korean War, commented that he didn't plan on conducting a point defense against the government.

Blogger VD January 27, 2016 9:55 AM  

We'll see. No one will do anything about it, until someone does.

Obviously. But regardless, it will never be the sort of person who rages on Facebook.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother January 27, 2016 9:58 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Anonymous BigGayKoranBurner January 27, 2016 9:59 AM  

Affirmative action govt workers need 120 shots to kill one man, but Anders Breivik required 121 shots to kill 77. They are barely better than the sand nigger attack at the Copenhagen cartoonist party.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother January 27, 2016 9:59 AM  

But people post on our Facebook page demanding we do something, and that we also tell them on Facebook exactly what we are going to do. Before we do it.

I just got a call from a Reuters reporter in NYC asking me what we were going to do, and if I could let her know what we were going to do. Before we do it.

Interestingly, the most vociferous demands and screams to do something come from women.

Anonymous Passinthough January 27, 2016 10:07 AM  

Question: If Ammon Bundy et.al. had not occupied the empty refuge buildings would you know anything about the Hammond family? Would we be having the discussion about the proper role of government, the blatant corruption of the federal government? Would you know anything about the federal mismanagement of the public lands? Sometimes it takes a radical.

Blogger dc.sunsets January 27, 2016 10:08 AM  

This is why I bristle at those who would suggest I'm a rabbit because I don't engage in confrontation. That pisses me off no end.

Fools and idiots get into no-win situations. Confronting "the law" with force is a guaranteed way to reap an ignominious death. "The law," after all, is the agency that embodies the groupthink/Hivemind (contemptible, but ubiquitous) consent of your fellowmen.

You can no more fight agents of Authority than you can take on your entire community, no holds barred.

You cannot force an idea whose time has not yet come. People cite the American Revolution as a counter-example, but that's bullshit. There was ample support for the American Revolution in the halls of Parliament, and without the help of England's enemy, France, the revolution would have failed anyway.

Any suggestion that we are living in parallel times is laughably absurd. Never have more people demonstrated more bovine complacency and consent than now.

That has to change. I think it will change. Until it does, force only feeds the beast.

Blogger Miguel D'Anconia January 27, 2016 10:10 AM  

Direct confrontation with the state is a no-win situation. You are outgunned and too many people don't care enough to do anything. I personally plan on withdrawing my support. Minimizing the amount of money stolen from me by the guberment and increased self-sufficiency coupled with living more local.

The system will eventually crash and all the adult children (inner city blacks, turd world migrants and other leeches) will die off but not without a burst of gang theft & crime. This most likely will be met with sane producers simply killing them. Once the shit has been flushed, the rebuilding can begin.

Blogger VD January 27, 2016 10:12 AM  

Question: If Ammon Bundy et.al. had not occupied the empty refuge buildings would you know anything about the Hammond family? Would we be having the discussion about the proper role of government, the blatant corruption of the federal government? Would you know anything about the federal mismanagement of the public lands?

Yes. We're not. Yes.

There are more effective ways of getting out a message. Such as starting with a television station rather than a wildlife refuge center, just to throw one crazy idea out there.

For crying out loud, every South American revolutionary used to start with either a radio station or a TV station. These guys didn't even reach the level of incompetent Hispanics.

Anonymous WillBest January 27, 2016 10:15 AM  

@12 Horse hockey. So many things wrong with that I won't bother with it. Other than to say if you had incriminating evidence, and you hate the government, you sure wouldn't put yourself in a position to be killed.

Blogger Neanderserk January 27, 2016 10:15 AM  

Dropping out means not raising a large Christian patriarchal family, which is losing.

If you're losing, make sure it comes at a price the enemy doesn't want to pay.

Anonymous Gobriel January 27, 2016 10:16 AM  

These white privilege terrorists got exactly what they deserved.

Here is a humorous thread on the matter

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/136824-oregon-militia-almost-killed-me/&page=2

Blogger dc.sunsets January 27, 2016 10:16 AM  

Would we be having the discussion about the proper role of government, the blatant corruption of the federal government?

You've got to be kidding.

I have pamphlets from the International Society for Individual Liberty printed in the 1980's that decried the state of the US government. These debates have raged since the debates between Federalists and Anti-federalists. They raged in the 1850's through 1865.

And every single man who died in those debates changed the direction of things--what?

Not. One. Bit.

Blogger szook January 27, 2016 10:18 AM  

@25 Yup, they got to weed out the unworthy....

Anonymous kfg January 27, 2016 10:22 AM  

"Interestingly, the most vociferous demands and screams to do something come from women."

They always do.

Blogger dc.sunsets January 27, 2016 10:25 AM  

I still think Carl Watner and the Voluntaryists have the right idea from the start:

Simply live the change you wish to see.

Anonymous Quartermaster January 27, 2016 10:28 AM  

@19
"No, it's not. In fact, even the guy who posted that isn't going to lift a finger over it, except perhaps to Like a Facebook post or two."

But, but, that's fighting. isn't it?

Seriously, the only reason the war of northern aggression was fought is you had sovereign entities facing off. There is nothing behind the doofi like Bundy and his ilk, and they haven't the slightest idea how to handle such things.

The country is populated by sheep. Nothing will come of this, other than the Bundy and his gang being immured in Club Fed.

Blogger Salt January 27, 2016 10:30 AM  

An interesting twitter feed on Trump

Blogger Miguel D'Anconia January 27, 2016 10:31 AM  

@31 I agree with you 100%. I certainly didn't mean by dropping out to not live your life the way you see fit, the general consensus be damned. I am a believer and my wife and I do have a traditional marriage. We don't have children but not by choice. I personally live my life by God's principles and where government violates that or infringes on my God given rights, guess who wins? I just quietly go about my rebellion and do what I can to educate others to build a grass roots alternative.

As for losing, I don't consider myself losing. I actually consider it winning because I'm giving the guberment and corporate amerika what it wants while denying them my output and brain. Let them see what a society of orcs is like.

Cheers brother!

Anonymous Shawn January 27, 2016 10:39 AM  

My understanding is that the Bundy people wanted the Fed gov't to hand land over. I am opposed to this. The fact is the gov't is in the best position to preserve the nature preserve and it deserves to be maintained.

Blogger bob k. mando January 27, 2016 10:42 AM  

25. Stg58/Animal Mother January 27, 2016 9:59 AM
Interestingly, the most vociferous demands and screams to do something come from women.



how is that interesting? that's what women ALWAYS do.

"Let's you and him fight"

Taylor accusing the Ilk of cowardice for not running around shooting muslims, feds and mexicans ... when she spouts off about the guns she has? hunh, i'm not seeing reports from Dallas about federal employees getting sniped, i wonder why she never sacked up and did anything.

women trying to shame men into doing stupid shit ( you have such a tiny dick ) is millenia old, not interesting.

it's just yet more demands from women that *men* take responsibility for the consequences of actions which are, more often than not, the results of the women's decisions in the first place.


26. Passinthough January 27, 2016 10:07 AM
Sometimes it takes a radical.


John Brown may have died, but he won the war.

unfortunately, i don't see that the groundwork has been laid for a popular uprising against Fed over reach.

Anonymous The OASF January 27, 2016 10:44 AM  

I suspect Trump is trying to demolish what's left of the GOP as a national party in presidential politics. Aka a democratic party operative. But the risks and sacrifices he's making do point to the chance of legitimacy.

But the hilarity of Trump most likely winning cuckservative Iowa... and defying the Farmer-Tom-Cuck Iowa archetypes who just lover that cheap ag industry labor and those tasty Mexican cuisines at Sanchez's taco shop just can't be matched by any current form of entertainment.

Anonymous JI January 27, 2016 10:45 AM  

Reminds me a bit of the movie The Republic of Rick. A very funny movie, although in real life this sort of thing is just sad.

Blogger Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus January 27, 2016 10:46 AM  

My understanding is that the Bundy people wanted the Fed gov't to hand land over. I am opposed to this. The fact is the gov't is in the best position to preserve the nature preserve and it deserves to be maintained.

What's especially ironic about this is that the Feds are apparently planning to turn the land over to offshore mining conglomerates.

Blogger BassmanCO January 27, 2016 10:47 AM  

@40

The protesters wanted the land back the Federal government took from them.

And if you think the federal government is a good steward of anything (healthcare, Department of Education, Department of Energy, Federal Bank, etc.), you are too much of a moron to wipe your own ass, let alone comment on anything here.

Blogger tz January 27, 2016 10:48 AM  

Where's "Hands Up! Don't Shoot!" when you really need them?

Blogger Miguel D'Anconia January 27, 2016 10:50 AM  

@40 Also check out what the EPA did to the Animas River near Durango, CO. The feds are shit custodians. They'd F up a cold beer.

Blogger Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus January 27, 2016 10:51 AM  

unfortunately, i don't see that the groundwork has been laid for a popular uprising against Fed over reach.

Don't worry. When St. Rafael, er, Ted gets elected, he'll make everything alright.

/sarc

Blogger Efrem January 27, 2016 11:04 AM  

Yes, I agree Vox, the posts on Yahoo and other sites are forming according to plan. Government good, protesters bad. Rwwwwaaaarrr!!

Blogger Zen Trader January 27, 2016 11:08 AM  

"I suspect Trump is trying to demolish what's left of the GOP as a national party in presidential politics. Aka a democratic party operative."

No. Just, no. What's happening is that there is a shift happening in both parties. Both coalitions are shattering, and both parties have been doubling down on old tactics to keep it together. For the Republicans, that's religion, and for the Democrats, it's the insane levels of identity politics we've been seeing.

What's really happening is that the middle class is waking up and realizing that it's been had. We have a government which has grown too large, too powerful, and is totally disconnected from the needs of most of its people. All of this would be acceptable if it were a capable custodian, but it's not.

Combine that with the realization that there is a very wealthy globalist class which is basically taking the wealth they and their ancestors created over generations, and you have people ready to change things.

Blogger JaimeInTexas January 27, 2016 11:16 AM  

@40. Shawn

Show me in the Constitution where the FedGov was granted the power/authority to have natural preserves?

Article 1, Section 8

(snip)

... and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings;

(snip)

Did you notice the FedGov's purchasing is conditional on the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be?"

See anything about parks or natural preserves?

Blogger VD January 27, 2016 11:20 AM  

The fact is the gov't is in the best position to preserve the nature preserve and it deserves to be maintained.

First, that is not a fact, that is your opinion. Second, your opinion is wrong.

Blogger Nate January 27, 2016 11:23 AM  

"Obviously. But regardless, it will never be the sort of person who rages on Facebook."

Correct. It isn't.

The people who would do it.. would do it quiet. But they are out there. And they are the reason this was handled the way it was handled... and not with a blunt force raid.

Anonymous That Would Be Telling January 27, 2016 11:25 AM  

@26 Passinthough:

Question: If Ammon Bundy et.al. had not occupied the empty refuge buildings would you know anything about the Hammond family?

Yes, the case had gotten a great deal of publicity because of the Fed's extra special atrocities:

Waiting years to prosecute them for a not well enough controlled burn, and later a backfire that ended up burning 2-3 acres of Federal land, much less than if the wildfire hadn't been controlled with the backfire.

Prosecuting them as terrorist arsonists without the mens rea. Yep, everything said about how these laws would be abused is coming true.

On conviction, the one favorable thing the judge did for the defendants was sentence them to much less than the mandatory minimum of five years, citing the 8th Amendment.

The Feds successfully appealing that, but not before the Hammonds had served out their 1+ years in Federal prison, all this is about them returning to prison, which they, no doubt under further Federal threat, were not protesting.

That last was the really big detail that caught people's eyes, stories like this of Feds driving people off their land by any means necessary are a dime a dozen, as others have indicated in this thread.

So I didn't need to do any background reading when Bundy (son) and company started their insane stunt, and a whole different set of my news sources started reporting on that with all the Hammond background.

Blogger Timmy3 January 27, 2016 11:33 AM  

It is clear that no one from the Government will go to jail. There is no justice. On the wider question of Federal Government power, that won't be addressed either. While I think states should have more rights, I live in California so that argument fails. Federal and States are failing the people.

OpenID sigbouncer January 27, 2016 11:35 AM  

"I did not see the logic in the Bundy's maneuvers"

That's because Ammon Bundy is a Federal provocateur. Bundy created this call to arms and set up as many people as he could. Wait and see who gets released first.

Anonymous Tom Joad January 27, 2016 11:36 AM  

And notice that the moment the government took action, they tried to surrender. Never play or posture at violence. And never threaten violence unless you are fully prepared for your enemy to resort to it.

You don't truly believe that if it went down that way only one of them would have been killed, do you? If our government were that evil, they would not have left a single witness alive.

You all really are incapable of thinking this shit through, aren't you?

Blogger Nate January 27, 2016 11:36 AM  

"The fact is the gov't is in the best position to preserve the nature preserve and it deserves to be maintained."

It deserves to be maintained.

are you a 5 year old boy that personifies everything? what else does the preserve deserve? milk and cookies? Maybe you should call it she instead. I hear mispronouning is very offensive to nature preserves.

Blogger Guitar Man January 27, 2016 11:38 AM  

Shaun,

The federal government has actually destroyed more land than it has preserved. I won't bother citing that, go google it yourself.

Blogger Halifax Donair January 27, 2016 11:42 AM  

Hey Bundys: You're doing it wrong.

Blogger Noah B January 27, 2016 11:42 AM  

Shaun, ever hear of the Animas River? If not, DuckDuckGo it.

Anonymous That Would Be Telling January 27, 2016 11:46 AM  

@56 sigbouncer:

"I did not see the logic in the Bundy's maneuvers"

That's because Ammon Bundy is a Federal provocateur. Bundy created this call to arms and set up as many people as he could. Wait and see who gets released first.


I don't remember him being fingered as an agent provocateur, just for being an idiot who was likely influenced by a couple of men who'd long before been strongly suspected as being provocateurs.

And the Feds aren't great at keeping faith with these small fry. Certainly the BATF ends up screwing many of the people who they enlist to help (not that many have a choice if they want to keep their FFL and therefore business), there's even a notorious case of them betraying one of their agents. Of course, the BATF are the worst of the worst if you don't count bodies, but....

Blogger Bluntobj Winz January 27, 2016 11:47 AM  

@8

Nate has the right idea that someone was trying to force an event. Failed Revolutions and the like are forced. Successful revolutions rely on good timing.

Is the US in hyper-inflation? Has the web been blatantly censored? Wrongthinkers being renditioned on DomTerr charges? Cruel taxes? Food stamps being cut off? mass unemployment? no?

The time is not yet.

Anonymous Robert January 27, 2016 11:47 AM  

And yet, Ferguson continues to burn over less than this. What a time to be alive - so many lessons to be learned.

Anonymous VFM#6734 January 27, 2016 11:55 AM  

In the 4GW sense the government lost in Waco, Ruby Ridge, and other like confrontations. The gov was intruding on the lives of citizens on their own property. When these guys took ove the wildlife refuge, they lost on that account before any shots were even fired. It wasn't their property, and to most people th seemed to be looking for trouble. They lost on the moral level, and then on the tactical level. Leaving the refuge is a poor defensive strategy for defending the refuge.

Anonymous redsash January 27, 2016 11:57 AM  

"no one is going to wake up" It only has to produce one McVey, one Brevik.

OpenID sigbouncer January 27, 2016 11:59 AM  

@62

@56 sigbouncer: That's because Ammon Bundy is a Federal provocateur. Bundy created this call to arms and set up as many people as he could. Wait and see who gets released first.

"I don't remember him being fingered as an agent provocateur"

Google it.

Blogger Nate January 27, 2016 12:02 PM  

"Google it."

Like so many other things... you are ignorant about this. Bundy isnt the one. Bundy is being heavily influenced by an individual that is much more than suspicious.

Bundy is a fiddle being played.

Blogger Escoffier January 27, 2016 12:05 PM  

Zen Trader how do see the Repubs doubling down on religion?

Anonymous Shawn January 27, 2016 12:06 PM  

I rarely side with the government but the Bundy plan was to commercialize the preserve. Best if that land stays owned by the gov't; while not perfect it (on average) does a better job at preserving land than ordinary citizens - particularly ones looking for a cash cow.

Blogger Azimus January 27, 2016 12:06 PM  

40. Shawn January 27, 2016 10:39 AM
My understanding is that the Bundy people wanted the Fed gov't to hand land over. I am opposed to this.


That's wonderful. I will log this in the "Opinion of Policy Shapers and Global Trendsetters" file.

The fact is the gov't is in the best position to preserve the nature preserve and it deserves to be maintained.

Because everybody knows people take the best care of public property like park bathrooms, and horrendously abuse their own property.


The fact is the gov't is in the best position to preserve the nature preserve and it deserves to be maintained.

OpenID sigbouncer January 27, 2016 12:11 PM  

Google it.

"Like so many other things... you are ignorant about this. Bundy isnt the one. Bundy is being heavily influenced by an individual that is much more than suspicious.

Bundy is a fiddle being played."


You can check out Alex Jones initial comments on this when the story broke as well. Jones total sarcasm in saying "good to hear that Ammon Bundy wasn't shot and killed". Right after referencing this was a complete setup and that he had sources.

Like I said. Wait and see who gets released first. That will tell all.

Blogger Nate January 27, 2016 12:12 PM  

"I rarely side with the government but the Bundy plan was to commercialize the preserve. Best if that land stays owned by the gov't; while not perfect it (on average) does a better job at preserving land than ordinary citizens - particularly ones looking for a cash cow. "

How do people that say things this stupid find this blog?

OpenID sigbouncer January 27, 2016 12:13 PM  

The Bundy's, Payne and Cooper. All are Federal provocateurs.

I posted on Cooper here and his story in Vox's first time around with this.

OpenID sigbouncer January 27, 2016 12:15 PM  

http://avp.wikia.com/wiki/Blain_Cooper

Blogger Noah B January 27, 2016 12:21 PM  

sigbouncer is just trolling us now.

Blogger Jon M January 27, 2016 12:21 PM  

@40: "The fact is the gov't is in the best position to preserve the nature preserve and it deserves to be maintained."

That's because you don't know the facts of this case. (From the sound of it, you have never had to deal with the DLNR either. Those guys are utterly inept at land management. Great mandarins, terrible land stewards.)

The 'wildlife preserve' that the Feds wanted to save from those evil ranchers was, in fact, nothing but barren desert until the ranchers transformed it over decades into a lush prairie. Then, the Feds decided that the wildlife - only there because of the hard work and changes wrought by the ranchers, mind you - was at risk due to the hard work and changes wrought by the ranchers.

A study published by the DLNR itself stated that they were having a hard time keeping wildlife within the preserve because the wildlife preferred land managed by the ranchers. The government solution was to chase the wildlife by swallowing up any adjacent ranch land they could get their hands on. They managed to seize every ranch in the area until the Bundy's finally fought back with everything they had.

This sort of government action, seizing and ruining wild lands from the very people who improved it, goes on all the time.

Blogger Jon M January 27, 2016 12:23 PM  

@73: "How do people that say things this stupid find this blog?"

Find this blog? How do they even dress themselves in the morning.

OpenID sigbouncer January 27, 2016 12:28 PM  

@76

"sigbouncer is just trolling us now."

Look up Stanley Blaine Cooper Hicks and tell me that. Explain how this clown, a felon in possession of a firearm, is not a Fed? He took Jesse Ventura's name (Blaine Cooper) in the movie Predator. He walked away from a commitment to the US Marines. This guy isn't walking around on the streets except for the fact that he's a Fed.

OpenID sigbouncer January 27, 2016 12:30 PM  

http://thisainthell.us/blog/?p=61312

Anonymous That Would Be Telling January 27, 2016 12:32 PM  

@65 VFM#6734:

In the 4GW sense the government lost in Waco, Ruby Ridge, and other like confrontations. The gov was intruding on the lives of citizens on their own property.

And something similar happened with Clive Bundy the father; as reported by some of the sources I follow, the Feds were in FBI Hostage "Rescue" Team "kill them all" mode when they, supposedly all the way up to DoJ head Eric Holder, groked the "No More Free Wacos" message, and left with their tails tucked between their legs. To this date Bundy the father continues to graze his cows on Federal lands, although who knows what pressure his sons' antics will now put on him.

Anonymous That Would Be Telling Us January 27, 2016 12:39 PM  

@56 sigbouncer:

"I did not see the logic in the Bundy's maneuvers"

That's because Ammon Bundy is a Federal provocateur. Bundy created this call to arms and set up as many people as he could. Wait and see who gets released first.


@74 sigbouncer:

The Bundy's, Payne and Cooper. All are Federal provocateurs.

@79 sigbouncer:

@76

"sigbouncer is just trolling us now."

Look up Stanley Blaine Cooper Hicks....


You're moving the goalposts, none of us have denied people other than Ammon Bundy are likely agent provocateurs, who we strongly suspect convinced him to pull this stunt.

Anonymous Shawn January 27, 2016 12:45 PM  

Lets say that I, as a private citizen, decide that I want a piece of Sequoia National Park. I'm interested in forming logging business to take down ancient sequoias and build a resort. I think I'll just go squat in some government-owned property in the park. Cool huh

OpenID sigbouncer January 27, 2016 12:49 PM  

"You're moving the goalposts, none of us have denied people other than Ammon Bundy are likely agent provocateurs, who we strongly suspect convinced him to pull this stunt."

No, not moving the goal posts. I said you can google Ammon Bundy Federal Provocateur. I also referenced Alex Jones take on this when the story first broke yesterday.

As I said before here. Wait and see who gets released first. That will tell all.



https://henrithibodeau.wordpress.com/2016/01/06/oregons-hammond-family-persecution-background-story-and-is-cliven-bundy-an-agent-provocateur/

Ammon Bundy Agent Provocateur: Secret messages disclose concealed government payments, CIA Phoenix Program ties in Oregon federal building occupation

Posted on January 4, 2016, by John Kelly, NewsInsideOut.com

Vancouver, BC – An exclusive new video published to YouTube on January 4, 2016, purports to reveal how self-styled militia spokesperson Ammon Bundy unconsciously disclosed his standing as a government-paid agent provocateur during multiple video statements posted to social media in the wake of a federal building occupation by armed protesters at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge near Burns, Oregon this past weekend.

Anonymous Susan January 27, 2016 12:52 PM  

Being an actual resident of this state, there are a couple of facts that are being deliberately ignored by the media.

1. The US Attorney involved in this whole mess is not only an Obama appointee, she skated very close in the past to losing her job in a different agency due to the fact she is a stalker. She is seriously creepy.

2. The Sheriff who recently resigned is also not such a straight shooter either. He was a star witness in earlier prosecutions of the Hammond family.

3. There have been various reports that it was the Feds in the first place who were out and about trying to stir up fear and anxiety among the residents, all while claiming to be members of militia groups.

4. The area concerned in this part of the state is so rural that you can go for 20 miles without seeing a neighbor. So self reliant and rugged individualism is on display from residents here. It takes a hardy soul to make a living in this part of the country. You do for yourself, you don't wait for authorities. So when the Hammonds dealt with the wildfire by setting a backfire, they were saving their residence and outbuildings.

5. The refuge was chosen IIRC, because it forced the Feds to be the ones who had to be inconvenienced when it came to making contact. It also put them closer to the Hammond ranch than they would have been if they had stayed in Burns. This way it also prevented the Feds from boxing them in too.

Unfortunately, since this state has a liberal bent, thanks to the largest city of Portland, not all the coverage in this issue is on the honest side.

Anonymous Shawn January 27, 2016 12:54 PM  

Or let's say I decide I can do a better job at preserving the Sequoia National Park than the gov't. So is it within my right to squat on that property? Rhetorical

Anonymous Greunner January 27, 2016 12:58 PM  

"They're just going to be vilified, jailed, and forgotten."

Good! It's the least these scum sucking layabouts deserve.

Blogger Nate January 27, 2016 1:01 PM  

"I posted on Cooper here and his story in Vox's first time around with this."

Shut up.

Seriously. You're to stupid to say things in precise manner. You say uninformed things.. then get called on it.. and pretend you said something different.

Bringing up Cooper to people here.. who are in fact some of the people who freaking dug up the dirt on Cooper... is just clownish behavior.

Anonymous Shorty January 27, 2016 1:05 PM  

"Invade, ????, Profit" is a stupid strategy when the DoD and DoS do it with the resources of the USG behind it. This was never anything but an attempt at martyrdom.

Blogger Red Pill January 27, 2016 1:07 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Red Pill January 27, 2016 1:08 PM  

The government did this (ambush, shoot and kill) in hopes that they would shoot back and therfore give a reason to take American's guns away

Anonymous Shorty January 27, 2016 1:10 PM  

That's idiotic. People want gun control when objectively innocent people are killed by madmen. Regardless of our personal views on Federal Agents, these guys lost the publicity game from the beginning and nobody cares about them in the big picture.

Anonymous JamesD January 27, 2016 1:11 PM  

The Oath Keepers refused to take part in this. This was a really bad move by Bundy. They had a great opportunity to drum up anti-totalitarian support with peaceful protests. The Hammonds were clearly innocent. Back burning, and burning weeds is COMMON practice. Bundy blew it.

OpenID sigbouncer January 27, 2016 1:12 PM  

@88

"and pretend you said something different"

I have maintained Bundy as a Fed Provo and given a link to support this (google will get you more links). I added Payne and Cooper to this only AFTER you made the claims that another on site was influencing Bundy. To simply show Bundy isn't alone in this, obviously. So nobody pretended anything here dick wart.

And I am the one who posted the dirt on Cooper in Vox's first blog here. It's there plain as day for all to see. So STFU with your bullshit lies Nate.

Anonymous JamesD January 27, 2016 1:15 PM  

That being said, let's hope that this is a case of suicide-by-cop. I'd imagine there are videos of this from the cops, which will have to be released to the defence, so they will come out. We might have another Ruby Ridge if the reports of him having his hands up are true.

Anonymous The S:PY January 27, 2016 1:16 PM  

Lon Horiuchi anyone?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lon_Horiuchi

OpenID sigbouncer January 27, 2016 1:17 PM  

https://henrithibodeau.wordpress.com/2016/01/06/oregons-hammond-family-persecution-background-story-and-is-cliven-bundy-an-agent-provocateur/

Ammon Bundy Agent Provocateur: Secret messages disclose concealed government payments, CIA Phoenix Program ties in Oregon federal building occupation

Posted on January 4, 2016, by John Kelly, NewsInsideOut.com

Vancouver, BC – An exclusive new video published to YouTube on January 4, 2016, purports to reveal how self-styled militia spokesperson Ammon Bundy unconsciously disclosed his standing as a government-paid agent provocateur during multiple video statements posted to social media in the wake of a federal building occupation by armed protesters at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge near Burns, Oregon this past weekend.



http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/01/ammon-bundy-oregon-protest-sba-loan

As one of the leaders of a band of armed, anti-government activists who have taken over a Fish and Wildlife Service building in Oregon, Ammon Bundy has denounced the "tyranny" of the federal government. And he has brought a new round of attention to the anti-government militia movement that in 2014 rallied behind his father, Cliven Bundy, when the elder Bundy and armed supporters confronted federal agents in Nevada. But not long ago, Ammon Bundy sought out help from the government he now decries and received a federal small-business loan guarantee.

Ammon Bundy runs a Phoenix-based company called Valet Fleet Services LLC, which specializes in repairing and maintaining fleets of semitrucks throughout Arizona. On April 15, 2010—Tax Day, as it happens—Bundy's business borrowed $530,000 through a Small Business Administration loan guarantee program. The available public record does not indicate what the loan was used for or whether it was repaid. The SBA website notes that this loan guarantee was issued under a program "to aid small businesses which are unable to obtain financing in the private credit marketplace." The government estimated that this subsidy could cost taxpayers $22,419. Bundy did not respond to an email request for comment about the SBA loan.

Anonymous The S:PY January 27, 2016 1:19 PM  

Horiuchi:

Manslaughter charge

Press Release Regarding Charges Filed Against Lon Horiuchi

In 1997, Boundary County, Idaho Prosecutor Denise Woodbury, with the help of special prosecutor Stephen Yagman, charged Horiuchi in state court with involuntary manslaughter over his killing of Vicki Weaver. The U.S. Attorney filed a notice of removal of the case to federal court, which automatically took effect under the statute for removal jurisdiction[7] where the case was dismissed by U.S. District Judge Edward Lodge on May 14, 1998, who cited the supremacy clause of the Constitution which grants immunity to federal officers acting in the scope of their employment.[2]

Anonymous Laz January 27, 2016 1:20 PM  

@63. Bluntobj Winz

"...Cruel taxes?"

No tax return if you have no healthcare. It's either that or pay 20% of your income for it.

"...mass unemployment?"

With 90M-ish unemployed in this country I'd say it's getting there.

Anonymous JamesD January 27, 2016 1:24 PM  

Greunner, scum sucking layabouts? These are ranchers who work in sub zero weather during the winter, and 100+F during the summer. How many times do you read in comments complaints that Americans won't stand up? Calls for the guillotine by keyboard warriors? "Layabouts" is BS.

Stupid? Yeah, that's fair, as in, "We can't define victory, except that the Federal Government will turn over millions of acres of land because we are sitting in a Parks and Recreation cabin in Oregon."

Blogger Nate January 27, 2016 1:32 PM  

Sigbouncer... I'm just so amazed you know how to quote idiot sites like Motherjones and that idiot from Infowars.

Again... Cooper has been investigated by people on this very blog since before the BLM mess even started.

You are out of your depth. By about 10 miles.

Blogger YIH January 27, 2016 1:38 PM  

@38. Salt:
''Trump just turned the @FauxNews #Debate into the #KiddyTable'' (w/pic)
How true. Though Fox can still rescue it - if they do it right.

OpenID sigbouncer January 27, 2016 1:40 PM  

"Sigbouncer...

Again... Cooper has been investigated by people on this very blog since before the BLM mess even started.

You are out of your depth. By about 10 miles."


Well nobody else besides myself posted Cooper's info on Vox's first blog about the Burns Fed building.

So if anything was previously posted about Cooper here, I didn't see it. I did my own research on the guy. Just like I did with Bundy here today.

Blogger allyn71 January 27, 2016 1:42 PM  

I doubt this is going to start the fire but it is certainly going to add some more fuel to the pile. We will know if it was a legit shoot if the feds come out with video. If no one had their camera's on or some such BS then we know they murdered him. It was an ambush from the get go so they had plenty of time to get cameras ready.

My personal intuition is that the nutjob liberal Governor of Oregon was losing her shit and putting heavy pressure on the FBI. Bet she forced their hand with threatening to go solo with the Oregon State Police.

Time will tell but I think this is a very bad turn of events. Now things are going to get set for a Waco type situation because they are never going to come out of that refuge and all the crazies are headed this way. As has been said before, the crazies always snap first. Will this cause a popular rebellion and start the next war? Probably not. Will it cause another ratcheting up and will a few crazies snap and do crazy shit? Probably.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother January 27, 2016 1:43 PM  

Ryan Payne has also been investigated by people here as well using active duty contacts. Sig, good information but you aren't the first to uncover it.

Blogger BassmanCO January 27, 2016 1:44 PM  

@83, @86

Call 911, somebody wandered away from the short bus.

Anonymous A.B. Prosper January 27, 2016 1:49 PM  

This won't lead to anything for a lot of reasons

#1 The US is angry but its not ready for a revolution. Fed Gov is also not weak enough yet.

#2 We won't have a revolution in a "change" elections year anyway. No these elections likely won't do jack but people think they will and its good enough.

#3 The Bundy's are L.D.S. which is particularly loathed sect. Many Christians see them as heretics and diabolically influenced though this might change after this a bit which is good.

#4 The so called revolutionaries don't even have an actual ideology to fight for .Muh constitution." is not an ideology. Nor is "Less Federal owned land" If they want a revolution to work they better have very specific goals and the will to rule. Our Founding Father did even if getting a working system was hard

#5 Rugged individualism is stupid. You can't win a fight by yourself or in small groups, you need cooperation in scale. If Europe for example were to have a revolt, their revolutionaries have specific goals (if only foreigners and EU out, us in) cooperate in groups and have no problem putting boots on necks.

#6 You'd think these jokers would have learned that the FBI works almost entirely by infiltration. provocation ambush and deception with a smattering of forensics and law thrown in . Any freaking 60's radical could have told them that. They have yet to come up with any decent kind of countermeasures an they'll need them when dealing with any agency or counter revolution or any of the rest. I means really the entire OPM database was breached. You'd think someone planning a revolution would think "hey we could get info like this and use it" but no. Data is power and your revolution isn't data savvy you loose.

#7 Most of these guys are decent if blinkered about what such wars are like but operationally are dumb as bag of Maoist hammers anyway. The wannabe revolutionaries. They have have only begun to study tactics, logistics (something the Oregon idiots knew apparently nothing about) counter/counter insurgency and most important who to control and manage the press. That is a steep learning curve . Bundy jumped the proverbial line. As was said above, high time preference,

Last but not least, a lot of us, me included don't want to be ruled by them, don't want your Libertarian bullshit and don't want to cash the checks you write,

Honestly I am about as far from sheeple as you can get without being well Alex Jones assuming he's not a plant) but honestly the Cathedral as bad as they are, does a better job than these people would do.

Caveat wealth distribution and immigration

Maybe that makes me unprincipled or to borrow from Mike Vanderbough "a dirty collectivist" but really these guys are unworthy to rule.

The mandate of heaven requires one (paraphrased)

I. Become worthy

II. Accept power

III. Rule

The current Cathedral fails at #1 , these guys at all three,

Anonymous Greunner January 27, 2016 1:52 PM  

James,
They are all ficking., layabout, beer swilling yahoos who like to play with guns. They got what they deserved. The only problem is it didn't come soon enough.

And yes, they are all dipshit stupid.

Blogger Emmanuel Mateo-Morales January 27, 2016 1:53 PM  

@107

Ummm... Mormons ARE. They're a cult. Not a blatant, sacrifice your child to appease Molloch kind of cult, by the context of Christian thought, they are a cult.

One of the reason they're a cult is that, like Vox, they're filthy, deniers of Christ's deity, though unlike Vox and say, the filthy dirty Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormon theology is more predisposed to polytheism rather than Unitarian Monotheism.

Anonymous patrick kelly January 27, 2016 1:54 PM  

@53 Nate:
" "Obviously. But regardless, it will never be the sort of person who rages on Facebook."

Correct. It isn't.

The people who would do it.. would do it quiet. But they are out there. And they are the reason this was handled the way it was handled... and not with a blunt force raid."

Indeed. I'm speculating, but I think the more serious, prepped OK 3%'er types who have all their sitrep, ROE, LO and those other ubber ninja terms dotted and crossed, just waiting for whatever pre-determined line or trip wire gets crossed to let loose likely don't bother ranting on FB much.

Their actions will result in furious attempts by the PTP to cover them up and re-frame them as anything other than effective or successful. Won't be on the front page of the NYT.

I don't see such coming from this, but it might raise their alert level a bit.

Blogger Rusty Fife January 27, 2016 1:55 PM  

Never play or posture at violence. And never threaten violence unless you are fully prepared for your enemy to resort to it.

Therefore, this should have been the time to go the non-violent route? Similar to the Left's occupation of colleges and such.

I suppose lots of noise about how there aren't any weapons out at the Federal property. I mean I'd you are going to martyr, do it right. Take the moral high-ground.

I'm looking at this as an after action review.

Blogger Jed Evnull January 27, 2016 1:56 PM  

They were fools to put themselves in the way of the Harkonnen fist.

Blogger Noah B January 27, 2016 1:57 PM  

Unless you have small groups where the members all basically know each others' entire life history, there isn't even a realistic possibility of keeping out informants and infiltrators. So it wasn't a huge shock to find out that the Feds have been pulling Bundy's strings all along.

I'm not defending the Feds here because I have no idea what happened, but it's noteworthy that they only killed one guy. In an ambush like this you would think it would have been easy to kill them all.

Blogger Noah B January 27, 2016 2:01 PM  

Also from a 4GW perspective, the Sheriff asked the men to leave weeks ago, tried to defuse the situation, and promised them safe passage out. It seems like they've read the handbook.

Blogger Dan Breen January 27, 2016 2:02 PM  

What's the consensus on polygraph tests to avoid infiltration?

OpenID genericviews January 27, 2016 2:03 PM  

No worries. I am certain the President will denounce this senseless violence and insist the DoJ investigate.

OpenID sigbouncer January 27, 2016 2:03 PM  

@105 Stg58/Animal Mother

"Ryan Payne has also been investigated by people here as well using active duty contacts. Sig, good information but you aren't the first to uncover it."


Thanks. I do remember an Oath Keeper out of Texas (I believe) who referenced Payne in that blog being discussed. Which is what got me going on researching Cooper. Coopers trail can be found via the Oath Keepers as well. Oath Keepers is golden.

Blogger allyn71 January 27, 2016 2:03 PM  

@107 The Bundy's are L.D.S. which is particularly loathed sect. Many Christians see them as heretics and diabolically influenced though this might change after this a bit which is good.


You are correct on a national scale but this is a regional issue. Out west especially in S. Idaho, Nevada, Utah, E. Oregon this is not the case. In these areas Mormons were the original pioneers and have major influence. A lot of people are looking at this from an Eastern perspective and just don't get the West. Feds own the vast majority of the land and they control the economies of these rural communities. The eastern transplants don't give a shit but the native westerners are getting restless as they get increasingly phased out.

Blogger RobertT January 27, 2016 2:05 PM  

"I can testify, from my father's experience, that no one is going to "wake up" and no one is going to be inspired to do anything as a result of it. They're just going to be vilified, jailed, and forgotten."

That's certainly correct.

These are both situations in which people were fighting for philosophical beliefs. In my experience people who fight for philosophical beliefs often decide to take the bullet rather than capitulate.

I have experience with tax protesters who fought the IRS, were convicted of tax evasion and received long and harsh sentences. But every single one of them was released from prison after two months. After the big splash in the press and everything had settled down. I don't know what agreements they came to, but they obviously came to some understanding. All of them were financially ruined in the process.

One of my favorite stories is about a would be tax protester who said he was having trouble with the IRS and wanted to fight them. After looking into his situation, I realized his father had set him up in a Dynasty Trust that recognized all the income and paid all the taxes. This guy didn't even have to file a return and didn't owe a penny in taxes. It's basically impossible to provoke a fight with the IRS if you aren't a taxpayer, but when I told him that he walked out muttering foul things about me as he exited the building.

My guess is the Bundy people were very much like this guy. They just hate the government. Hopefully this guy didn’t sacrifice himself for a hopeless cause.

Blogger Bluntobj Winz January 27, 2016 2:08 PM  

@63

They have not yet begun to tax...

Also, you ain't seen nothin' yet with unemployment.

Blogger dc.sunsets January 27, 2016 2:11 PM  

How short are memories.

Remember the "Viper Militia?" Convicted for whatever on the basis of a transcript of mostly static on an audio recording. It was during the "scary militia" sub-Narrative, which came after the "satanic child-abuse" sub-Narrative but before the "Mathew Sheppard-gays-getting-bashed-to-death" sub-Narrative.

I recall decades ago someone noting that at a meeting of some self-avowed "Aryan Nation" group there was 1 low-IQ clown for every 9 people on Uncle Sam's payroll (and only 9 people showed up, none of them in the first column.)

Nothing we see/read/hear is real. Nothing is what it seems. The smart money is to stop basing one's worldview on data constructed via focus group.

Blogger Noah B January 27, 2016 2:16 PM  

"Oath Keepers is golden."

Yeah I was kind of upset with them when all this started - until I got the whole story - but they were right.

Blogger bob k. mando January 27, 2016 2:16 PM  

114. Dan Breen January 27, 2016 2:02 PM
What's the consensus on polygraph tests to avoid infiltration?



the people most likely to be trained to falsify polygraph results would be ... government agents?

and that's assuming your polygraph operator isn't already compromised.

and that's also ignoring that civvies cheat polygraph machines fairly regularly. that's why polygraph tests aren't admissible in court.

Blogger Noah B January 27, 2016 2:17 PM  

"What's the consensus on polygraph tests to avoid infiltration?"

Practically useless.

Blogger Neanderserk January 27, 2016 2:19 PM  

A radio station would certainly be better than a wildlife preserve. Green shoots!

Jim argues that non-converged governments remain so by executing those SJWs who attempt to infiltrate into positions with access to the levers of power - media, banking, NGOs, universities - in short, the Cathedral.

Hypothetically speaking, someone named Anders Breivik might simply begin doing that before said government officially existed.

If one man, lone nut. If multiple, that dreaded boogeyman - "right wing death squads". Interestingly, the latter are not responsible for a lot of deaths. They seem positively humanitarian compared to the usual democidal method of halting Left Singularities.

An argument could be made that casualties among the elite fringe of the far left would reduce society's fear- and status- driven movement ever leftward.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother January 27, 2016 2:21 PM  

Noah,

Your reaction is the same that a lot of people have when they read about moves we make. We have a lot of sources and inside contacts that many people don't have access to, so when we act people don't have the whole story right away.

4GW is hard to fight.

OpenID sigbouncer January 27, 2016 2:25 PM  

@123 Noah B

>What's the consensus on polygraph tests to avoid infiltration?

"Practically useless."

Agreed.

https://antipolygraph.org/

https://antipolygraph.org/articles/article-034.shtml

How to Beat the Lie Detector

Armed with these directions for fooling
the quack who operates it, you need not
fear this modern instrument of torture

by WILLIAM SCOTT STEWART

In the first place, it's the bunk. In spite of what the newspapers and the so-called experts would have you believe, there's no machine on earth capable of detecting a lie.

The popular conception of a "lie detector" machine--and a belief sponsored by the propaganda of those who live off the racket--is that of an Almighty contraption that rings a gong every time a lie is told, a machine whose instrument gauge points a "naughty-naughty" finger at any one who dares to fib to it. You'd hardly think it necessary to say "There ain't no such animal," and yet in this age when the public is ready to believe anything and everything so long as it's labeled "scientific," quacks are finding an easy market for their pretended infallible crime cure-all, the lie detector. Some of those guilty are being passed up, while the innocent are often made to suffer...

Anonymous patrick kelly January 27, 2016 2:31 PM  

"What's the consensus on polygraph tests to avoid infiltration?"

Polygraphs tests are psychological manipulation hoodoo-voodoo. The most effect use is to convince someone they work and get them to confess. There's reasons why they are not permitted as "scientific" evidence in court rooms.

Blogger Jon M January 27, 2016 2:39 PM  

@83 and @86: You got it backwards, Shawn. In the last century it has always been the government deciding it can do a better job of managing private land and seizing it from private landowners. Your question makes *my* case for *me*, you dolt.

Blogger Neanderserk January 27, 2016 2:48 PM  

I must say there is a sort of stupid symmetry in modern American militias attempting to spark a revolution by occupying a wildlife preserve.

The first wave of European leftist revolutionaries got squashed because they believed that the people would rise. That was dumb. John Brown took an armory because he thought the black slaves would rise. That was dumber. But expecting the animals to rise takes it to a whole 'nother level.

Anonymous BigGayKoranBurner January 27, 2016 2:59 PM  

At the very least, it serves as a lesson to people who engage in militia activities: shoot the cops without hesitation

Don't shoot the cops they are K selected trending conservative. If you are going to anyone, shoot the local a-holes that vote & the media that lie. Make sure you have a way out and pick up all your brass. http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2016/01/no-more-free-wacos-national-three.html

"FBI Special Agent in Charge of the Albuquerque New Mexico office journeyed downstate to visit Bob Wright, than (as now) commander of the 1st Brigade, New Mexico Militia. "Bob," he asked, "would you really take your unit up to Montana to protect them?"

Bob looked him in the eye and said, "Why would I want to do that? There's plenty of you federal sonsabitches around here."

It's also a lesson on future time preference, they were not content to wait

The idiots didn't even plan it out. Last week they put out a request for supplies including French Vanilla Creamer. They probably got caught running out to buy some. 4 months post nigapocalypse people better be happy with powdered creamer.

Wasn't Vox saying good things about the occupation back when it was new?

This is certainly a different outcome than when Eric Holder was in an armed occupation of a govt building. http://dailycaller.com/2012/09/30/as-college-sophomore-eric-holder-participated-in-armed-takeover-of-former-columbia-university-rotc-office/

Obviously. But regardless, it will never be the sort of person who rages on Facebook

Yes if someone offered on line to gladly poison 1000 moslems, they would be smart to make sure to poison 1001 to throw affirmative action govt workers off their tail. Crap make that 1002. Darn

Blogger buwaya January 27, 2016 3:04 PM  

Probably not popular here, but it seems to me that the right strategy for publicizing these Federal Lands injustices is non-violent public disobedience Gandhi-tactics where they will not be ignored. Sit-ins blocking the courthouses and State legislature as were often done by environmental activists. The advantage is that this can be done with no weapons and the same personnel can be re-used over and over again.
Horses could also help. The public doesn't want any horses hurt.

Blogger Neanderserk January 27, 2016 3:07 PM  

By which I mean, the people will not rise, because they are stupid. And if they do rise, they will do so in a stupid manner that gets them killed. The usual methods are conscription and democide. However, if no one else is available to kill them, they can always pillage themselves into starvation.

Yes in the American Revolution the People more or less did rise, but that was a different and much better people. To verify this, merely witness the progressively stupider and more wicked subsequent risings: Civil War, WWI, WWII.

At least we can look forward to home court advantage on the next one! War solves depression, dontcha know. In the long run, we are all dead, because animal spirits require sacrifice.

I liked it better when the pagans were sacrificing animals TO the spirits, even if they threw the occasional human in. Better a holler on a pyramid than a pyramid on the dollar.

Blogger ray January 27, 2016 3:07 PM  

Only a couple commenters (out of 113, site owner inclusive) have any idea what happened. It's a ways from France.

Couple days ago local Medea reported the 'Burns community' wanted the situation 'resolved'. That was the Fed go-ahead, and simultaneously permission for local LE to stand-down, or collaborate, whichever they'd already decided. That report should have informed the occupiers that they'd just been cucked out for big-screen teevees, last Christmas' bills, and Muh Fambly.

The issues are old (longstanding sagebrush rebellions in this part of the world) and new --

1) Specific expansions of eminent domain infringing on local populations, usually ranchers. Out here, ranchers are not the kind of men used to being told what to do (except by their women of course). So if you're just another Swinging Dick, even Mr. Fed Untouchable Bigdick, and you want to order those guys, you may get resistance, you may get hurt. These are not campus castrati protesting microagressions.

2) Government chicanery in the imprisonment of the 'arsonists'. Using fed and state cages to advance political agendas upsets some folks. If you canvassed the county jails in rural WA and OR, you'd find a large population of men in cages for no other reason than accusations/manipulations by women (who ARE the Community). There are plenty of white-trash lowlife scumbags in the county cages too, to be sure, the kind that used to just get hanged. But largely these days it's Lower Class white males enduring more of The Beatdown. Cops and court administrators and Prosecutors and PDs require careers, must buy more stuff oops I mean uphold the Law. Of course telling you the this makes me a Little Bitch.

Without the LDS, I might have driven over to sniff. Some LDS at least have decent values, but I don't defend false religions with masonic progenitors and rites.

Local LE in the rural PNW are often divided ideo-politically and via religion. Very much person-by-person. Some will cut you slack and allow a little manhood, others can't wait to get you in cuffs. The Feds OTOH are rarely divided in loyalty, their loyalty is to their IRAs. Laying a trap by the side of the road and shooting unarmed men in the face is exactly what I'd expect from the United Snakes of Amerika. Whether true I dunno, wasn't there.

Next time you boys go militia, with real guns, on The People's Highways, you'd better have Jesus riding shotgun, or it might be your own detached face left out on the blacktop somewhere.

Blogger Aeoli Pera January 27, 2016 3:07 PM  

Never play or posture at violence. And never threaten violence unless you are fully prepared for your enemy to resort to it.

Also never make a sarcastic remark. Or resell cigarettes. Or open a lemonade stand. Or talk to a girl. Or look at anybody funny. Or be funny-looking.

People think GamerGate came out of nowhere, when video games are literally the last resort average young people have for finding any happiness. It's the only thing you're still allowed to do that they can afford.

It's too easy to play armchair quarterback on these things from a position of prosperity. Sure, these guys were being irrational, but they were also targeted and harassed day after day for years.

As Sam Gamgee said, a man is liable to get angry.

Blogger Aeoli Pera January 27, 2016 3:09 PM  

Not that I'd know anything about that.

Blogger Neanderserk January 27, 2016 3:09 PM  

Nonviolent protests require state sanction to be successful, like Gandhi had. BLM marches are state action. Ask the Tibetans if nonviolence works.

Anonymous BGKB January 27, 2016 3:15 PM  

I don't remember him being fingered as an agent provocateur

Bundy might have been the only one not an agent provocateur. I suspect Stormfront gets at least 1/2 of its funding from the taxpayers. "If we don't get $50,000 da jews will shut us down"

Or let's say I decide I can do a better job at preserving the Sequoia National Park than the gov't. So is it within my right to squat on that property? Rhetorical

Actually the govt forced many farmers to give up their land after flooding the irrigation system white people set up in the area. The only reason birds flocked to the area was the irrigation system white people created and they adapted to the farming technices. A study was done that found birds preferred to live in the farmed private land than the public land, so low IQ affirmative action govt workers thought they needed to force out farmers to get the magic dirt. The Budies are the last family to hold out.

Blogger Aeoli Pera January 27, 2016 3:15 PM  

All that is aside from my belief that this whole thing was a setup for an attempted gun control initiative.

Decent people tend not to realize that their Great Leaders want them all dead, and are just afraid to act too quickly or openly. I have some theories why, but it really doesn't matter all that much.

Blogger buwaya January 27, 2016 3:18 PM  

Gandhi didn't have state sanction. He had supporters in the UK govt but certainly not in the Viceroys palace. Plenty of his followers were not well treated, to say the least.
Point is, to win on this issue it has to be political and it has to gain sympathy. This year it is ripe to make it a political issue, of the overbearing state crushing the common man, or of crony capitalist corruption as the case may be. Pointing guns at law enforcement is not useful in making it a political issue that can be taken up by allies.
Now, if you all are convinced that its all a pre-revolutionary situation and democratic politics are futile, thats something else.

Blogger Aeoli Pera January 27, 2016 3:19 PM  

There's got to be a way to get that down to a soundbite. How about "Your elites want us all dead, but they can't just come out and say so."

Anonymous BGkb January 27, 2016 3:20 PM  

Greuner Good! It's the least these scum sucking layabouts deserve.

Actually I already told people about gays that purposely get AIDS so they can lay about all day collecting social security disability and posting on line. So they where expecting you.

Blogger Aeoli Pera January 27, 2016 3:21 PM  

Heh. "Regardless of who you voted for last election, that person is actively attempting to cull you."

Blogger Aeoli Pera January 27, 2016 3:24 PM  

Better a holler on a pyramid than a pyramid on the dollar.

Nice, I like that one.

OpenID sigbouncer January 27, 2016 3:34 PM  

@85 @133 Susan and ray

Those were both excellent breakdowns on Oregon/PNW for those outside the area who are not as informed.

Had a girl from Burns ask me to move out there with her about 15 years ago, ironically. I didn't because, well, it was Burns. Pretty much a lawless country out there from the way she told it. Bend and Sisters are both pretty nice spots out that way though.

Blogger Neanderserk January 27, 2016 3:35 PM  

"Pointing guns at law enforcement is not useful"

You should do consulting for the Cartels.

Anyhow I don't see why you would shoot cops when you can just acquire them by changing their leadership. Seems wasteful.

Anonymous A.B. Prosper January 27, 2016 3:39 PM  

Emmanuel at #108

A cult doesn't have 15 million members . That is probably more L.D.S people than were Christians on the Earth in the time of Charlemagne.

Also while they have some dubious views on the divinity of Christ, and some ridiculous doctrine seeing him as co-creator rather than Father in flesh , its not as important as how they live, Their works if you will

They see salvation only though Christ and try to live as good Christians. I'd say that makes them Christian enough.

That however is up to God not you or I and wholly off topic

Blogger buwaya January 27, 2016 3:41 PM  

"You should do consulting for the Cartels. "
Circumstances differ. These circumstances don't seem to indicate such a strategy. This is not Colombia. heck, Colombia isn't quite what it was. And being from a country where some of this did happen, I can say that it does not always work and often backfires, and over the long run the Gandhi tactics work better.

Anonymous A.B. Prosper January 27, 2016 3:45 PM  

ray, the dispute the Evangelicals have with the L.D.S is going to cause y'all no end of grief.

If I was a pastor I'd tell my flock to worry about the real problems and the State rather than inter-doctrinal bullshit God can sort out.

But again there is nothing more nasty than an internecine religious squabble and nothing better for the State either.

Anonymous A.B. Prosper January 27, 2016 3:50 PM  

buwaya, Ghandi was facing an enemy with a moral code that would have precluded them from simple slaughter to obedience.

He also wasn't opposed to violence in its place against foes that would do such a thing.

I'm not 100% sure the foe we are fighting has such moral inhibitions.

Leftists typically don't.

In that case we might need to consider other means if such a time comes

That said, this is not the time and the Bundy's were not anyone's cause.

The time won't come for some years anyway and it won't come until the Evangelicals , secular militia and the LDS can agree to work together. They are the three strongest groups in the country after all

Anonymous cheddarman January 27, 2016 3:57 PM  

Buwaya, this is 4th Gen warfare common sense...but most people that read and post here don't have time to do sit ins and civil disobedience

Blogger Neanderserk January 27, 2016 4:01 PM  

"over the long run the Gandhi tactics work better."

I cannot think of any nonviolent rightwing protest movements that worked offhand. Perhaps I should just take your word for it.

Blogger S.C.E. to AUX January 27, 2016 4:05 PM  

The big lesson I think is evident here is to always be recording. Even better is to use the instant streaming option now available so they can't seize the cameras and delete the video.

Blogger buwaya January 27, 2016 4:14 PM  

"I cannot think of any nonviolent rightwing protest movements that worked offhand."

- Chile 71-73- The first of the cacerolazos - prepared the way for the fairly popular military coup against Allende. The military would not have tried, if it weren't for the promise of a degree of public support. Made manifest by, among other things, the cacerolazos.

- Manila, 1983-86 - The public protests against Marcos were largely organized by Jaime Cardinal Sin and the Philippine Catholic Church, and publicly backed by the most conservative elements in Philippine society. The left participated, but they would have produced three men and a dog. The terminus for the massive marches was always a church. In the last post-election crisis, it was the masses of people, led by clergy, that made it impossible for the regime to find troops willing to suppress the revolt.
A participant and a witness.

This can work, and not just for the left. The US right just lacks imagination.

Blogger buwaya January 27, 2016 4:22 PM  

Montagwende - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monday_demonstrations_in_East_Germany

US Anti-Abortion movement - No, it has not eliminated it, but it HAS succeeded partially in changing public attitudes and greatly reducing the rate of abortions by about half from its peak.

This sort of effort requires patience, determination, organization and a long term vision. Also politics oriented towards acquiring allies.

Blogger FALPhil January 27, 2016 4:24 PM  

@53 The people who would do it.. would do it quiet. But they are out there. And they are the reason this was handled the way it was handled... and not with a blunt force raid.

Uninteded Consequences

The best practical manual on 4G that you will find in English.

Blogger MATT January 27, 2016 4:42 PM  

Vox, I hope your father is doing well. I remember you saying he was helping other inmates appeal their cases, etc. Hopefully he's let out early. Rapists get less jail time.

Blogger Neanderserk January 27, 2016 4:45 PM  

@154 I don't think socialism collapsing due to food shortages counts. It is not hard to get people to bang on pots when they are hungry.

A transition from dictatorship to democracy doesn't strike me as right wing, but left wing.

Not buying it.

"US Anti-Abortion movement" - not non-violent, total failure.

This is like where you denied Gandhi was state sanctioned by arguing he just had friends in high places in the British Government. Ok.

"This sort of effort requires patience, determination, organization and a long term vision. "

Wow, those who manage to acquire state power must be incredibly virtuous. That's a relief.

Blogger Noah B January 27, 2016 4:48 PM  

"...I can testify, from my father's experience, that no one is going to "wake up" and no one is going to be inspired to do anything as a result of it."

Just another example that the rule of law is a joke. It isn't tax evasion when GE, Google, and Apple do it.

Blogger Remo - Vile Faceless Minion #99 January 27, 2016 4:50 PM  

Well the situation is now clear. If you can't get redress and you can't live with losing your land or whatever it is they are taking from you there is only one choice - start killing them preemptively. Find the highest level target you can and drop the hammer. If in your heart you can't walk away and the government won't let you surrender then the only other logical move is take as many with you as you can. These guys refused to continue to knuckle under but it's now clear that if you decide to go that path then it's not a half measure. You are going to die and your mission just becomes to take down as many as possible. I doubt this crew thought this through and many are old enough to remember when surrender was an option - not anymore. The government grants no quarter so no point dying with your hands behind your back.

Blogger Neanderserk January 27, 2016 4:51 PM  

Y'know, I have been on a Christian anti-abortion march. They marched like the tribes of Israel. With one very big exception: No weapons.

"And thou shalt have a paddle upon thy weapon; and it shall be, when thou wilt ease thyself abroad, thou shalt dig therewith, and shalt turn back and cover that which cometh from thee"

At least they didn't crap in the street.

Blogger Neanderserk January 27, 2016 4:54 PM  

Actually, I take that back. The protest would've been far more effective if they'd done the opposite: brought weapons and left turds.

Anonymous Difster January 27, 2016 4:56 PM  

The people that took over the wildlife refuge had no plan, no OpSec, and they didn't even bring enough food! For all their good intent, they may as well have stood out on a street corner and claimed they were taking over the town.

Oath Keepers made the right call in saying they didn't support the take over. It was just stupid. This was not the right hill to die on.

Blogger buwaya January 27, 2016 5:19 PM  

Every major protest movement has had SOME support in high places.
No regime is monolithic. In the Philippines we secretly had with us the Army Chief of Staff and a good number of officers, and eventually the Minister of Defense, who had long doubted the wisdom of his boss. When the crisis came they attempted a coup that failed, and were rescued by the people.

The Marcos government was a left-wing nationalist one - much like Chavez, but less intense. Marcos seized numerous private businesses and nationalized them, and through that cowed the rest, implemented mandatory agricultural cartels controlled by his friends, forced all foreign finance (loans from foreign banks) into government hands, did a lot of Chavez-style (not as intensely), fake social justice type things like nationalized stores for the poor, nationalized jobs programs used to drum up crowds, etc.

I saw this from the inside. The old business class that was left over from the old days was almost uniformly opposed to the regime.

Marcos was Chavez-lite, constrained by his personality and his concept of what the people would tolerate.

The left was also bitterly opposed to the regime, but generally the left was weak. They had a good number of intense partisans but the vast majority wasn't buying it. Guerrillas in the hills did not translate to votes, and they knew it.

Politics and, well, all human events are not cleanly categorizable.
There is no clean break between "left" and "right", at best these are circumstantial labels.
Also, partial success is all that one can hope for given the worlds complexity (and beware of backfires), and gradual movement towards a goal is movement regardless.

Anonymous Epstein's Island January 27, 2016 5:32 PM  

the rule of law is a joke. It isn't tax evasion when GE, Google, and Apple do it.

Exactly, so it reasonable follows that they pretty much ARE your .gov and influence and make the laws themselves. It's called wealth, fame, fortune and blackmail for politcos themselves: ie "Lobbying".

Blogger Aeoli Pera January 27, 2016 5:50 PM  

@150 cheddarman,

Buwaya, this is 4th Gen warfare common sense...but most people that read and post here don't have time to do sit ins and civil disobedience

Right now I have plenty of time, but sit-ins and marches are one of those weird passive-aggressive neurotypical things that I just plain don't understand. So even if I were so inclined, I'd probably do it wrong and end up in a funny YouTube video.

Blogger Aeoli Pera January 27, 2016 5:58 PM  

@160 Neanderserk,

Y'know, I have been on a Christian anti-abortion march. They marched like the tribes of Israel. With one very big exception: No weapons.

Wow, that must have been really effective!

"And thou shalt have a paddle upon thy weapon; and it shall be, when thou wilt ease thyself abroad, thou shalt dig therewith, and shalt turn back and cover that which cometh from thee"

You can learn everything there is to know about people from the Bible.

"I don't care if you shit in the field guys, but you need to realize there are about one hundred thousand of you all shitting in the same field."

Blogger FALPhil January 27, 2016 6:02 PM  

@159 If in your heart you can't walk away and the government won't let you surrender then the only other logical move is take as many with you as you can.

One thing is for sure: after the first one, the rest are free.

Blogger FALPhil January 27, 2016 6:10 PM  

@148 But again there is nothing more nasty than an internecine religious squabble and nothing better for the State either.

"Internicine" would be between Baptists and Presbyterians. This is more like Methodists and Branch Davidians. Evangelicals aren't ever going to cotton to wholesale invention of non-hermeneutical scripture, or any theology that has such obvious similarities to mohammedism, like polygamy, works salvation, ex post facto salvation, and a restructuring of heaven. Just ain't gonna happen. The enemy of my enemy is the enemy of my enemy. Nothing more, nothing less.

Blogger Neanderserk January 27, 2016 6:11 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Neanderserk January 27, 2016 6:17 PM  

I don't think so, Buwaya. The argument is not whether nonviolent protest can form an ELEMENT of a right-wing revolution, but whether it can be sufficient to the exclusion of violent protest.

I wanted to read the Filipino account through the eyes of a dedicated socialist, and this one seems good:
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2009/08/cory-a05.html

The account portrays the protests as a minor part of the overall picture. A dynastic transition was going to happen regardless. The nonviolent protests merely reduced the bloodshed of the immediate transition; they didn't cause the regime change. Rather, the centralization of power under Cardinal Sin allowed "the people" to be wielded effectively as a coherent weapon for good (order) by a single elite. This does not apply to the USA. As you say, "circumstances differ".

Arrange for the USA to have a single cardinal and Filipino religiosity, and sure I'll admit that a well-timed Catholic march can make kings.

In sum, I'll see your kneeling nuns and raise you Aquino's CAFGUs.

Barring surprises, I don't think I'll be checking out any more of your arguments.

Blogger ray January 27, 2016 6:22 PM  

"Bend and Sisters are both pretty nice spots out that way though."


Ain't they? Truly, God's Country. Once you're outta town.

The Sisters area got pretty re-tireed in the past decades I notice. Also, lots of occult activity in that area since the Seventies. Organized stuff.

It was God's Country tho, back in the 1860s, when my peeps hit the Sierras. So bountiful and so beautiful! (God's Country not my peeps.)

Now it belongs to Kitty Brown, Barry Soetoro, the National Organization for Women, and the Burns Chamber of Commerce. Plus sundry hired guns. Well good luck.

Either the Country is going back to God, or they can all feed charred hay to their fatassed charred cows, and rot in their controlled Burns.

Blogger buwaya January 27, 2016 6:25 PM  

The only mistake the Anti-Abortion movement is making is it is not using the civil disobedience angle. They can march on Washington and be ignored (and they have been, except perhaps in the backs of the minds of both politicians and bureaucrats); but if they march on Washington and blockade public buildings with a mass of bodies - and they have the numbers, definitely - they will get attention.
The point of civil disobedience is to not be ignored, at a personal cost. This is the way to go for as long as you consider normal politics to apply, and probably well after that point - consider the examples I cite, where such a strategy was successful in dictatorships.
Anyway, I speak from experience, and successful experience at that.
This country is a long way from sorting its problems out with gunfire. My country was far, far worse off before our crisis, and yet we managed it without bloodshed. But patience, discipline, and creative politics are needed.

Blogger buwaya January 27, 2016 6:50 PM  

Re Santolan - Ahem, that account is rather - biased. This is a disaffected communist writing here, bitter about his cause failing. Its their story that it was not the people that drove the revolution, because of course they could not admit that they were not leading the people.

Circumstances differ. There is in the US no Catholic society run by a single Cardinal/Archbishop. But both the tactics and the strategy certainly apply.

The protest were NOT a minor part of the overall picture. They were critical in terms of "hearts and minds". Pre-protests there was uncertainty about public opinion. Everyone else thought everyone else was preferring the "devil we know". As the protests developed and people saw their friends and neighbors marching, it became the thing to do, and it made it clear that the majority was willing to risk something other than the "devil we know". Wealthy ladies marched in yellow dresses, defying the regime and shaming their husbands. This was also critical in changing hearts and minds of the regime loyalists, who gradually lost any rationalizations for their position. Internationally they undermined the regime, the foreign banks declining loans, investments tanked, and nervous regime loyalists started a huge capital flight. I recall the frequent attendance of Steven Solarz, of the House Foreign Affairs Committee, in numerous events. I still have some pictures of him, somewhere. This obvious foreign doubt about the legitimacy of the regime also affected unspoken opinions. In the end it was the protests that brought on the crisis, as the regime figured they could only retain some credibility through an election. That was the last straw.
And re Santolan, its very much like a communist to deny human feelings to their enemies, and assume that events were driven by naked interest. The military were human, Christian, and patriots, not amoral cartoons, and were just as affected by the movement.

Blogger ray January 27, 2016 7:00 PM  

When it was Somebody Else's Turn, it was all good. Now it's his turn. Soon it'll be your turn.


https://www.yahoo.com/parenting/dad-arrested-for-taking-daughters-phone-as-171354368.html


Yep those bad, bad mooslims. Ruining our country and all.

Blogger Cecil Henry January 27, 2016 8:00 PM  

Stefan Molyneux did an thorough presentation on the ranchers and their grievances.

The government was harassing them and pushing them of their lands by coercive means for 15 years.

If they can do it to them, they will do it to you and anyone. One by one.

ITs disgusting, and NO the government is not the best to manage the land --- the people are the best to manage the land and their interests.

What a slavish mentality.

Anonymous Rhys O'Reilly January 27, 2016 8:02 PM  

I have just finished reading the NorthWest novels by Covington. Interesting and eye opening. He even mentions this very scenario, trying to hold ground against the government, as being suicidal. More importantly is that he believes a thousand people waging a guerrilla war against the US government is enough to cripple it. Remember how Chris Dorner shut down an entire city and sent the police into panic. If these militia fools had split into small teams (or even just gone off individually) and started a guerrilla war it would have bought the whole US to a halt. I suspect there are also a lot of people out there who are fed up with the government and would have supported them.

Blogger Neanderserk January 27, 2016 8:14 PM  

Nothing you said changes what I've written, Buwaya. I am capable of reading between socialist lines. I'm aware you had a big popular movement to remove a dying, incompetent dictator and deny his split dynastic succession.

Moreover, pro-democratic popular protests are effective at manipulating "international opinion", namely American opinion. The same does not extend to the badwhites under the Union bootheel.

As I said, it doesn't even clearly qualify as a right-wing revolution. It was anti-Reagan, anti-autocratic, pro-land reform and feminist.

Your unicorn proves the rule.

Anonymous Boris January 27, 2016 8:20 PM  

Have you guys started planning the next OKC bombing yet?

Blogger Rusty Fife January 27, 2016 8:34 PM  

@177 Boris

Bombs are so impersonal.

Blogger buwaya January 27, 2016 8:44 PM  

"As I said, it doesn't even clearly qualify as a right-wing revolution. It was anti-Reagan, anti-autocratic, pro-land reform and feminist."

It wasn't anti-Reagan. Reagan was very popular in the PI. Attitudes were like the Russians to the Czar, pre 1905 - "if he only knew what was happening he would bring us justice". Or something like that. Marcos was pro-land reform. This was not a partisan matter. Land reform was a plank of Marcos' party for two generations. Marcos started the first large scale implementation of it.
It was to a degree a sword to hang over his many landowner enemies.
"Feminist" is to laugh. Social structures and norms there most definitely do not map to US ideas, and Marcos was no less "feminist" than his enemies. Powerful political widows always have been SOP, including, btw, Marcos' mother. The country is a profoundly female-centric society under the covers, a real gesellschaft matriarchy. The US is nothing like that.

Anyway, point being that under difficult conditions, such a big popular movement was generated and succeeded. The US is in no way in as much trouble, and there are many options, such as in this example, to reform, without shooting.

Anonymous Spartacus xxxxx January 27, 2016 8:46 PM  

@29. VD

There are more effective ways of getting out a message. Such as starting with a television station rather than a wildlife refuge center, just to throw one crazy idea out there.

Hey I got an idea! Why not start a publishing house? Maybe add a blog, too? If you use this idea I want 10%.

Blogger buwaya January 27, 2016 8:46 PM  

Sorry, that's a gemeinschaft matriarchy. German !!!

Anonymous Spartacus xxxxx January 27, 2016 8:54 PM  

@177. Boris

Have you guys started planning the next OKC bombing yet?

That's your job, moran. You're projecting. And this time not so sloppy on the coverup, kay? You let too much hang out last time, didn't look good. Remember General Partin? Oh, well at least you wasn't as amateur hour as the Sandy Hook, Boston Marathon, & Aurora Batman boyz & grrlz.

Anonymous Boris January 27, 2016 9:14 PM  

"And this time not so sloppy on the coverup, kay?"

I was just telling the other guys at MK Ultra 2.0 that you conspiracy theorists are getting way too good at figuring things out. What's the point of lugging tons of airplane wreckage down to the Pentagon when there are three-sigma minds who are going to figure it out in seconds? Ah, well. Don't be in Seattle in early April, btw.

Blogger Rusty Fife January 27, 2016 9:18 PM  

@183 Boris

I'm glad somebody here completely trusts everything the government tells them.

Blogger Escoffier January 27, 2016 9:40 PM  

Say Ray you do understand it's not an either or proposition, right?

Blogger Neanderserk January 27, 2016 10:08 PM  

@179 It doesn't matter what the PI thought of Reagan, but what the Americans thought of Reagan.

It may come as a shock to you but most the world, particularly the important bits, are not in the PI.

A female president is feminist optics, and feminist in fact. Check your Bible.

The USA is in far worse trouble. PI had Reagan to ensure the commies stayed in the hills. The US has nobody but the God of the Old Testament, whose idea of land reform is, "Pave it."

It is easy to have faith in God and nonviolence when the white god keeps things from going to Hell.

I'm sure it will all work out in the end. Global superpowers don't have messy left singularities. They're too big to fail.

Anonymous Spartacus xxxxx January 27, 2016 10:32 PM  

@183. Boris

"And this time not so sloppy on the coverup, kay?"

I was just telling the other guys at MK Ultra 2.0 that you conspiracy theorists are getting way too good at figuring things out. What's the point of lugging tons of airplane wreckage down to the Pentagon when there are three-sigma minds who are going to figure it out in seconds? Ah, well. Don't be in Seattle in early April, btw.

Oh come on, don't be such an obvious liar. Everybody knows they didn't have to lug tons of airplane wreckage down to the Pentagon: if they had bothered with all that we'd have seen it on TV. Much simpler and cheaper to hire third-rate hacks like you. Think production budget, man. And Boris? You're no MK Ultra. They have higher standards than can be found in the boiler room.

Blogger buwaya puti January 27, 2016 10:53 PM  

You said that our movement was anti-Reagan - no it wasn't. You said the fact that we had a female president was "feminist" - no, it really, really wasn't. The "optics" only apply within your cultural context. The reason the commies stayed in the hills (and there still are a bunch in the hills) is because nobody will vote for them. The Americans haven't helped in this respect since the days of Colonel Landsdale. And to be frank that help wasn't all that helpful. I think the Americans learned more than the taught.
Anyway, Gandhi strategies ARE available to a right wing movement. All that's needed is the will and the imagination.

Blogger Neanderserk January 27, 2016 11:20 PM  

Available yes, sufficient no.

Effective? Probably only for base morale/outrage, if that.

I did not say something wrong. You did not understand what I said:

The USG had influence over events in the PI as is obvious by the fact that Reagan's phone call precipitated Marcos' abdication. I'm sure a US faction preferred to see Reagan smeared by Marcos' fall. A female president looks feminist on Western TV, and is feminist in the Biblical sense. You already admitted international actors were important so don't now pretend that everything has to be interpreted through the lens of the PI experience. That perspective is not relevant to what international actors do.

The US did help fight Communists by only backing PI regimes that were anti-Communist. In the PI case that's all that was necessary - ensuring the local government was willing to kill them. It's not like you bordered China. Obviously Communists are never going to get votes if they are always getting killed.

OpenID sigbouncer January 27, 2016 11:42 PM  

Bundy says go home. The Fed in charge says they will all face charges. Bundy lead them all right into the trap with his call to arms. And he had no intention of fighting the Feds. The ones remaining can either face charges or likely die in a shootout now. Total setup.

Never trust any Bundy who isn't named Al.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/01/27/1-dead-feds-arrest-oregon-protest-leader-ammon-bundy/79392112/

"To those remaining at the refuge, I love you. Let us take this fight from here. Please stand down. Go home and hug your families. This fight is ours for now in the courts. Please go home."

"They have chosen to threaten and intimidate the America they profess to love and through their criminal actions bring these consequences upon themselves," said Greg Bretzing, FBI special agent in charge, said earlier Wednesday.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother January 28, 2016 12:45 AM  

Here's the bottom line: we don't yet know what happened at the roadblock. We won't until some kind of video is released.

Anything is conjecture at this point without video evidence. If it turns out Lavoy was killed as his daughter describes, life as you know it will end. Trust me.

Blogger buwaya puti January 28, 2016 12:51 AM  

The point you raised was that it wasn't a proper conservative or right wing revolution for various reasons. I assure you your reasons are not correct. As in the feminism issue. In the US, maybe, a woman president would be a left wing trope because of some aspects of political-cultural history. These do not apply elsewhere. They don't even apply to Britain, which had Maggie Thatcher, no thanks, or not much, to feminism. They don't apply in the PI because women calling the shots is normal, they were doing that before Simone de Beauvoirs grandmother entered convent school.
The point is that this revolution was conservative in the local context, which is all that matters. Cultures differ, details don't translate. In the US different social issues translate as liberal or conservative.
As for the USG influence on the PI, my fairly well informed opinion is that the US did not in fact save it from the Communists, and in fact that the US drew some not very useful lessons in counterinsurgency from there. The fact is that the Filipino masses were largely immune from communism for the most part, due to specific social and cultural factors. The Communists there actually were, if they were grass roots, came mainly out of the specific factory-farm environment of the sugar industry, and got nowhere when they hit the general small-farmer societies that prevail over most of the countryside. The student-university Communists (which are the same everywhere) have been beating their heads against that for 75 years. I assure you that the forces of the Philippine government have been the least of their problems. Leftist political parties there have always been, even the communist party; at one time there was even one aligned with the Soviet Comintern. These parties have been contesting elections for over a century, with nothing to show for it.
The most leftist government the country has ever had was Marcos', whom the US supported just as much as any other. The US military tried to pacify Vietnam, at least initially, under the misapprehension that they were dealing with Filipinos. Nope.
Anyway, agree to disagree on the utility of Gandhi strategies. In the US we can't say they will or won't work for the right, because they haven't been tried yet. I merely suggest that they should be.

Blogger buwaya puti January 28, 2016 12:53 AM  

The point you raised was that it wasn't a proper conservative or right wing revolution for various reasons. I assure you your reasons are not correct. As in the feminism issue. In the US, maybe, a woman president would be a left wing trope because of some aspects of political-cultural history. These do not apply elsewhere. They don't even apply to Britain, which had Maggie Thatcher, no thanks, or not much, to feminism. They don't apply in the PI because women calling the shots is normal, they were doing that before Simone de Beauvoirs grandmother entered convent school.
The point is that this revolution was conservative in the local context, which is all that matters. Cultures differ, details don't translate. In the US different social issues translate as liberal or conservative.
As for the USG influence on the PI, my fairly well informed opinion is that the US did not in fact save it from the Communists, and in fact that the US drew some not very useful lessons in counterinsurgency from there. The fact is that the Filipino masses were largely immune from communism for the most part, due to specific social and cultural factors. The Communists there actually were, if they were grass roots, came mainly out of the specific factory-farm environment of the sugar industry, and got nowhere when they hit the general small-farmer societies that prevail over most of the countryside. The student-university Communists (which are the same everywhere) have been beating their heads against that for 75 years. I assure you that the forces of the Philippine government have been the least of their problems. Leftist political parties there have always been, even the communist party; at one time there was even one aligned with the Soviet Comintern. These parties have been contesting elections for over a century, with nothing to show for it.
The most leftist government the country has ever had was Marcos', whom the US supported just as much as any other. The US military tried to pacify Vietnam, at least initially, under the misapprehension that they were dealing with Filipinos. Nope.
Anyway, agree to disagree on the utility of Gandhi strategies. In the US we can't say they will or won't work for the right, because they haven't been tried yet. I merely suggest that they should be.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother January 28, 2016 12:56 AM  

Damn are you still talking about the Phillipines?

OpenID sigbouncer January 28, 2016 1:25 AM  

@193 Stg58/Animal Mother

"Here's the bottom line: we don't yet know what happened at the roadblock. We won't until some kind of video is released.

Anything is conjecture at this point without video evidence. If it turns out Lavoy was killed as his daughter describes, life as you know it will end. Trust me."


If it happened like she said it shouldn't be too hard to prove. She's claiming that over 120 shots were fired. If this is the case there would have to be bullets all over the place out there and embedded in their vehicle, no?

http://www.newsfoxes.com/2016/01/daughter-of-murdered-militiaman-speaks-out/

Sharp said she frantically tried to “find something white” in the vehicle so they could display it as a sign they were surrendering. She challenged the reports coming from the media that only six shots were fired, stating that “they shot at least 120 shots altogether” in an “ambush” style attack where “FBI snipers in the trees” surrounded their vehicle.

Blogger Neanderserk January 28, 2016 4:34 AM  

Left and Right both won when Marcos abdicated, because Marcos was simply weak, and weakness causes disorder. Marcos used leftist populist pandering to compensate, but also crony looting, ethnic nepotism, army favoritism, and US lackeyism. When he started dying, the People finally had enough. No corpses! Hair, height and a pulse - Saul's the ticket.

Left and Right is a real objective axis regardless of what Filipinos label progressive or conservative. Ditto feminism/matriarchy.

From here:
"In 1986, Aquino became the first woman to be president of the Philippines, and for that TIME named her its Woman of the Year."
"Aquino had to perform a delicate balancing act between left and right"
"Aquino started a pattern, repeated many times since, of tactically shifting rightward to head off a rightist coup."

Corazon Aquino's revolution was hyper-Americanism - another battle in the endless war between State Dept and Pentagon. A conservative restoration in PI can be a a leftist victory in the US if it's photographed right, because nobody in the US actually knows or cares what is happening in the PI.

This revolution has no bearing on the viability of nonviolent right-wing protest in the US. Every Yankee Unionist instinctively knows a BadWhite from a GoodRabbit - just as zombies know tainted flesh from wholesome prey.

Blogger Rusty Fife January 28, 2016 7:45 AM  

@198 Neanderserk

1) You asserted "Nonviolent protests require state sanction to be successful, like Gandhi had."

2) buwaya puti essentially pointed out that the PI had various people within the government that sympathised with the revolution. However, they weren't in the Executive.

What level of 'State Sanction' is the threshold for non-violence to work?

Blogger Neanderserk January 28, 2016 12:15 PM  

@199

I said state sanction. The state is the extended state, i.e. the Cathedral. The PI extended state includes the US media, which would've crucified Marcos for driving tanks through nuns. He didn't stand a chance.

Meanwhile, China drove tanks through students and did great.

Nonviolent protest is memetic holiness warfare. Phariseeism, holier than thou leftward drift, is a weaponized memetic parasite on the host society. The right-wing element of the host society cannot fight its own left-wing memetic parasite with holiness. Its left-wing parasite has already engaged in savage Darwinian memetic competition with all other local holiness strains, emerging triumphant in the nonviolent competition ecosystem. The only way to defeat the parasite is to change the environment by reintroducing violence. You need a fever.

Nonviolent right-wing protest in the USA cannot work because the environment is pre-inoculated. Christian nonviolence cannot work in the post-Christian West because the environment is pre-inoculated. That's why it failed to stop Communism in Russia and Nazism in Germany and Islam everywhere. What worked against Rome does not always work.

But Christians needn't worry that they'll be held accountable for failure, because after all Jesus never spoke any parables indicating he prefers tactical flexibility to the appearance of moral virtue.

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