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Sunday, January 17, 2016

Divisional Weekend, Day 2

Carolina is certainly off to a fast start. It's not looking good for the Seahawks, given that the Carolina defense is better than the Vikings defense that held them to 10 points.

Interesting to see Cam Newton giving thanks right before the first snap of the game too. Who says a sanctuary must be indoors?

Labels:

137 Comments:

Anonymous Dave January 17, 2016 1:17 PM  

Lightning fast. Still a long way to go.

Blogger YIH January 17, 2016 1:20 PM  

For those who might have missed it:
http://www.unz.com/isteve/from-wikipedia/.

Blogger YIH January 17, 2016 1:29 PM  

And as you can guess the Pack are really crying in their piss-poor beer:
Aaron Rodgers: Wahhhhh I didn't like the coin toss!
After seeing his team lose in overtime without Aaron Rodgers touching the football, linebacker Clay Matthews says the NFL should consider adopting college overtime rules.
Hey, if a team returns the OT kickoff 75 yards and then punches it in for 6 don't blame the coin or the ref that tossed it!

Blogger Nate January 17, 2016 1:31 PM  

Not a packers fan by any stretch... but that coin toss was bullshit. You have one job. Flip the coin.

You can't blame the coin for not flipping.

Blogger Nate January 17, 2016 1:33 PM  

this is a bad bad start for the seahawks. They look like they've run into to a team that does everything they do better than they do it.

Blogger YIH January 17, 2016 1:42 PM  

They're already in a 21 point hole and the 2nd has just begun.

Anonymous Jabari January 17, 2016 1:43 PM  

Well, it was a fun ride for the Cardinals but I'm afraid that's the end of it. Carolina looks great.

Blogger Nate January 17, 2016 1:43 PM  

God... Carolina is just ripping seattle's soul right out through their chests. That D is exhausted.

Blogger Nate January 17, 2016 1:43 PM  

This is like watching bama beat up on kentucky or something.

Blogger Rantor January 17, 2016 1:44 PM  

Another interception...

Anonymous Dave January 17, 2016 1:45 PM  

Seahawks have come back before in some big games but not against a defense like the Panther's.

Unless the Panthers collapse they're gonna be playing the Cardinals next week.


And the ref did do another coin toss in that OT.

Blogger YIH January 17, 2016 1:47 PM  

Another Seattle pick, it just keeps getting worse...

Blogger YIH January 17, 2016 1:49 PM  

Make that 24-0

Anonymous Dave January 17, 2016 1:52 PM  

Heh Cortland Finnegan who says the NFL doesn't recycle?

Blogger YIH January 17, 2016 1:58 PM  

This drive, -8 yrds. then a 34 yrd punt.
The snowball grows as it rolls downhill...

Blogger jm January 17, 2016 2:00 PM  

I'd say the odds are good that Carolina will avenge its SB loss against the Pats this year.

Blogger YIH January 17, 2016 2:03 PM  

Make that 30-0

Anonymous Jabari January 17, 2016 2:03 PM  

What a throw and catch. Was totally not expecting this, thought this would be a good game. :/

Blogger Shamgar January 17, 2016 2:04 PM  

Cam is in a zone right now. Everything he does is working, SEA has no answers.

Anonymous Dave January 17, 2016 2:04 PM  

What a throw...what a catch!

Anonymous Punch Drunk January 17, 2016 2:04 PM  

Is over, yes?

Anonymous Dave January 17, 2016 2:07 PM  

Hate to ever call it over...remember last year Seattle and GB? But realistically Carolina's defense would have to implode for something even close like that to happen.

Anonymous The OASF January 17, 2016 2:08 PM  

Yes the Seahawks Carolina game is actually excruciating to watch. Unless one is a Carolina fan of course.

I guess golden boy Rodgers got a discount double check on that coin toss hahahahaha. A coin toss must involve the coin flipping at some point. Otherwise it would be totally unfair. It does not take a brilliant SEC triumphalist to figure that out, Nate.

That being said... recall when Bettis and Cowher screwed up the coin toss? I have said ever since then that the NFL needs to change theverything whole coin flip process. When will they learn?

And yes I am bias I hate Green Bay and their fans as I am a sentimental Detroit fan and the Hail Mary game this year literally cost me a night of sleep.

Blogger pyrrhus January 17, 2016 2:11 PM  

Over!

Blogger YIH January 17, 2016 2:20 PM  

They show signs of life then hit CTRL-ALT-DEL on 4th down. When they were in FG range.

Blogger YIH January 17, 2016 2:31 PM  

Seattle Seahawks has encountered a problem and needs to close. We are sorry for the inconvenience.

Anonymous Dave January 17, 2016 2:33 PM  

That has to be right up at the top for a team's worst half of football in a playoff game.

Blogger WATYF January 17, 2016 2:57 PM  

Well look who's showing some signs of life now that the second half has started.

WATYF

OpenID simplytimothy January 17, 2016 3:43 PM  

9 minutes and 17 points. Score here and its a game.

Anonymous #1037 January 17, 2016 3:47 PM  

I'm not sorry to be done hearing Seattle's fairweather fans talk about the Baygulls for the year.

Blogger SS January 17, 2016 4:02 PM  

Their drives are too long to do it at this point

OpenID simplytimothy January 17, 2016 4:09 PM  

two words: clock management.

Blogger frenchy January 17, 2016 4:11 PM  

i hope Carolina does not pull a Houston and blow a 31 point lead.

Blogger frenchy January 17, 2016 4:14 PM  

i hope Carolina doesn't pull a Cincinnati. :)

Blogger YIH January 17, 2016 4:15 PM  

And that is that. Now they have the offseason to wipe the hard drive and reinstall.

Blogger SS January 17, 2016 4:17 PM  

That's one of the teams im sick of hearing about down. The other has to wait until next week

Blogger frenchy January 17, 2016 4:18 PM  

@ 23,

Bettis didn't screw up the coin toss, the ref did.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Nd9BM8ssYM

Blogger YIH January 17, 2016 4:32 PM  

Maybe they ought to have a guest come out and toss the coin. A plastered Joe Namath didn't seem to have any trouble.

Blogger SS January 17, 2016 4:35 PM  

Was that Tyne time he tried to Orc up the reporterette

OpenID Jack Amok January 17, 2016 4:47 PM  

Well, I guess Carolina is too good to spot them 31 points and only play one half against them.

Blogger eharmonica January 17, 2016 4:55 PM  

The National Anthem is worth a look. It nailed it!

Blogger Rantor January 17, 2016 5:01 PM  

Fair weather fans? I'll have you know I watched that whole 10 degree game against the Vikings. It was really cold out there. I was feeling for them from my couch!

OpenID Jack Amok January 17, 2016 5:13 PM  

Maybe they ought to have a guest come out and toss the coin. A plastered Joe Namath didn't seem to have any trouble.

In SB XLVIII? He flipped it too soon... the ref had to grab it out of the air and do it over.


Blogger Guitar Man January 17, 2016 6:12 PM  

I don't think the Patriots are going to have too much trouble against the Broncos or the Steelers.

Blogger VD January 17, 2016 6:37 PM  

There is no way Manning is coming back next year.

Blogger Banjo January 17, 2016 7:02 PM  

He just looks so... old...

Passes coming out of his hand all look like they've been tipped at the line. Watch the replay and nope, just him.

Makes me sad.

Anonymous Father Time January 17, 2016 7:14 PM  

Makes me sad.

Don't be sad, Banjo. I am undefeated.

PS:

Denver receivers suck

Blogger Nate January 17, 2016 7:19 PM  

this is the most conclusive evidence available that he did not roid up. He's done. The fact that he's done doesn't change the fact that he's the best ever.

Blogger YIH January 17, 2016 7:33 PM  

@48 Nate:
In five years he'll be in the HOF. Elway needs to sit him down and tell him the facts of life.
They've got a decent QB of the future and they can't risk losing him because Manning wants one more shot at the SB - he ain't got it in him.

Blogger YIH January 17, 2016 7:41 PM  

Yikes. That just killed Pittsburgh.

Blogger ray January 17, 2016 7:42 PM  

"Who says a sanctuary must be indoors?"


Churchians. Management Analyst Religionistas.

The original desert sanctuary was a tent, not fancy either. Decidedly outdoors. Joshua built a sanctuary to the LORD from twelve Jordan stones. Dipped in and grabbed them, then waded out and trampled enemies. God thought that temple worked out fine.

Didn't see the outset of the game but glad to hear about Big Fig's acknowledgement of God. I praise God for my losses too, providing plenty of opportunity on a percentile basis.

OpenID sigbouncer January 17, 2016 7:46 PM  

Joe Montana was the best ever.

When you can go thru legendary teams such as Parcells Giants, Ditka's Bears, Gibbs Redskins in your own Conference on your way to 4 Super Bowl wins. With a 4-0 Super Bowl record, 11 touchdown passes, 0 interceptions, 68% completion percentage and a 128 QB rating. You're simply the best ever.

There can only be one.

Blogger jm January 17, 2016 7:50 PM  

One last Brady/Manning AFCCG matchup.

Blogger WATYF January 17, 2016 7:53 PM  

And Manning limps his way to one last championship game.

Blogger Guitar Man January 17, 2016 8:00 PM  

Brady is the GOAT.

OpenID sigbouncer January 17, 2016 8:07 PM  

@55

Brady certainly was the goat in the 2007 Super Bowl versus the Giants and Eli. When Brady couldn't even drive his team down the field for the game winning field goal or put up more than 14 points.

OpenID sigbouncer January 17, 2016 8:08 PM  

@55

And that wasn't Lawrence Taylor's Giants D with Belichick coordinating it.

Blogger Guitar Man January 17, 2016 8:09 PM  

Meh. You hate him cuz you ain't him.

Blogger VD January 17, 2016 8:12 PM  

The OC is laughing. He predicted one last Brady-Manning Bowl. Because storyline. Then, it's the Savvy White QB vs the New Model Black QB in New England vs Carolina.

Hint: Always bet on Black, at least when it comes to SJW storylines.

OpenID sigbouncer January 17, 2016 8:13 PM  

@58

I got nothing against Brady but the facts when it comes to comparing him to Joe.

Blogger Guitar Man January 17, 2016 8:15 PM  

I think Arizona gets in. And that's the one team I think the Patriots wll have the most trouble against.

Anonymous G.Veil January 17, 2016 8:16 PM  

@Sigbouncer

Yeah, that was brutal, but at least it was mildly interesting, unlike another Superbowl I can think of a few years back. #1 offense, HOF quarterback, what was the final score something like 43-8, gosh I wish Nate could help me with that quarterback's name.

Blogger Guitar Man January 17, 2016 8:16 PM  

What's to compare? TB beats him in practically every statistical measure.

OpenID sigbouncer January 17, 2016 8:22 PM  

So Vox, Cam = Obama's going away present. A very plausible theory. I can see that.

OpenID sigbouncer January 17, 2016 8:25 PM  

@63

Better check their stats in the Super Bowl again. Montana owns Brady (and everyone else) in the big game.

As for regular season stats. Most QBs from the 2000's own QBs from the 1980's statistically. It's pretty much meaningless and simply a function of the times and rules changes.

Blogger YIH January 17, 2016 8:26 PM  

@59 VD:
I see your point but I'm not quite ready to believe the NFL has become sports entertainment.

Blogger Guitar Man January 17, 2016 8:33 PM  

I love Montana, and I agree, hard to compare eras. And Brady has the benefit of having Belichick, who is probably the greatest coach at this time. Still, Brady's played in 6 SBs and he's close to getting to 7.

OpenID sigbouncer January 17, 2016 8:41 PM  

@67

And Brady's paths to those Super Bowls were much easier when compared to Montana's as previously pointed out.

More food for thought. Montana was a Bruce Smith hit away from taking KC to the Super Bowl. And I believe an Lawrence Taylor hit away from taking the 49ers to another one.

Could Brady have survived in that era of head hunters? Probably not so much, but I'd concede it's arguable.

Anonymous No January 17, 2016 8:49 PM  

The coin toss was irrelevant. The rules are clear and the Packers knew it. That's why they were trying to pick to receive before the ref asked.

Divisional Round in 4 participants, 4 words.

Fitzgerald: will.
Brady: unflappable.
Rivera: frontrunner.
Manning: vampire.

Blogger Guitar Man January 17, 2016 8:52 PM  

Brady is a heck of a lot tougher than given credit for. Yeah, he wears UGGs, and is a pretty boy, but if you caught the last like 6 games of the season when he had no O line, he took some pretty hard hits.

My humble opinion, though:

Greatest regular season QB - PM
Greatest playoff QB - TB and JM are neck and neck. If TB wins another one, it is his for a long time.
Greatest all around (to me, SB wins absolutely do matter) - TB

Blogger Gapeseed January 17, 2016 9:04 PM  

Too tough to compare quarterbacks, as so much depends on teammates and coaching. I have a friend who swears Elway is the best ever by simple fact that he had terrible talent around him on offense combined with a horse-and-buggy coach in Dan Reeves for much of his career. But once you put talent around him and a coach who knew how to use him, he became a Super Bowl winner even in his dotage.

Blogger Guitar Man January 17, 2016 9:08 PM  

@71, true. I just enjoy the nonsense of it all. Same with comparing different eras of the NBA. 80s was the golden age of the NBA, with Bird as king.

OpenID sigbouncer January 17, 2016 9:11 PM  

I'll close my end with these two youtube shorts of Joe Cool. And one last thing I can say about Montana is that he hits virtually every receiver in stride. Better than any QB I've ever seen by far. He no doubt passes the eyeball test.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMfSKJz6aPM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oq9PjJ6tVTU

Blogger Nate January 17, 2016 9:33 PM  

"January 17, 2016 8:33 PM


I love Montana, and I agree, hard to compare eras"


Montana is the most over rated QB in... no wait... he's the most over-rated football player period... ever.

Joe Montana has pathetic arm. so many NFL throws he simply could not make. Any other system but the west coast and he'd have been cut out-right.

He's a joke.

OpenID Jack Amok January 17, 2016 9:41 PM  

I hate New England, but Brady is damned good. I have to give him the nod over Manning. Montana... I just don't think you can compare different eras any more. The game has changed too much.

I think Arizona beats Carolina. Carolina almost folded their tent after being spotted 31 points at half. If only Russell Wilson's leprechaun had one more charge left in it...

The Seahawks-Panther's game was probably the best officiated game I've seen all year (not that it was perfect, but it was far better than most). It's much better watching games where the players have more screen time than the refs.

That said, the refs sure tried to fire up the calliope at the end there, calling Carolina for delay of game when they hadn't even spotted the ball.

How the hell does the NFL allow a team to have a field in that poor a condition, especially for a playoff game?

And how the hell do the Seahawks start the game with the wrong cleats? Didn't they warm up on the field?

After spending several weeks impersonating a competent Offensive Coordinator, Darrell Bevell reminded us why we hate him. Dude cannot adjust his game plan before half, no matter how bad it's failing.

Now it's time for some double-strength Margaritas and drinking farewell to Marshawn Lynch.

Blogger BassmanCO January 17, 2016 9:43 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger BassmanCO January 17, 2016 9:43 PM  

Admitted Broncos homer, but what happens if Elway has any of the teams Montana had? As good as he was with zero around him?

Anonymous zen0 January 17, 2016 9:45 PM  

He's a joke.

I sense you are more interested in purity than results.

Anonymous zen0 January 17, 2016 9:54 PM  

Its a tell when in the post game interview Manning mentioned when "I got the winning touchdown".

He did not say "we".

The guy is all cerebral. Brady at least acts like a looney cheerleader once in a while.

Anonymous Cadwallander J January 17, 2016 10:04 PM  

Quiet haters - Peyton's got one championship left in him.

He's a joke.

You still drunk after the Bama win, Nate? Don't drink and post.

Anonymous No January 17, 2016 10:17 PM  

Kubiak gave Manning a jalopy offense on purpose. He thinks it makes his defense better.

The Hoodie has got to be laughing maniacally in his lair tonight.

OpenID sigbouncer January 17, 2016 10:20 PM  

@76

Remember Montana at 37 to 38 years old did better with basically the same talent level in KC than Elway did in Denver in Elways prime (same division and conference). And those were in Montana's last two years in the league.

Montana didn't have much around him on offense in his first Super Bowl win either. But he still managed to lead the offense to 30.6 points per game in the 3 playoff games that year. Despite having the likes of Paul Hofer, Ricky Patton, Earl Cooper, Johnny Davis, Walt Easley, Freddie Solomon, Charley Young, Famous Amos Lawrence on offense to go with Clark.

Montana at Notre Dame destroyed Texas in the Cotton Bowl 38-10 in leading Notre Dame to a National Championship. Montana started his comeback legacy the following year vs Houston in the Cotton Bowl with a 35-34 win, coming back from hypothermia, down 34-14.

His winning ways and aura goes far beyond the WCO offense and the 49ers. Montana could have played in any era. A proven winner who was highly accurate and as clutch as they come.

Blogger BassmanCO January 17, 2016 10:36 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger BassmanCO January 17, 2016 10:36 PM  

Sigbouncer,

Stay off the crack.

Anonymous redsash January 17, 2016 10:46 PM  

There are two minutes left in the game. On my final drive I want either Joe Montana or Ken Stabler as my quarterback.

OpenID sigbouncer January 17, 2016 10:48 PM  

@84 BassmanCO

Elway, Marino and Peyton are all proven chokers. That's your Elway reality. Elway is in with that group. He's nowhere close to Montana (55-10 Super Bowl loss to him in '89). They all crumble in the big game and need help to win it.

Just stating the facts. Compare their regular season versus playoff stats if you don't believe.

Anonymous zen0 January 17, 2016 10:50 PM  

Stay off the crack.

Rhetoric is limited in subjects where statistics are involved...

OpenID sigbouncer January 17, 2016 10:54 PM  

@85 redsash

Those two will put a dagger in your heart with two minutes on the clock, agreed.

Blogger Nate January 17, 2016 11:06 PM  

sigbouncer... QB wins isn't a stat. Football isn't a one man game... and QB leadership is insanely over rated.

Tell us about Trent Dilfer's leadership.

OpenID sigbouncer January 17, 2016 11:22 PM  

Dilfer to Joe Montana is a complete non sequitur, Nate.

What did Dilfer do in Tampa Bay outside of getting benched for Shaun King? It took Dilfer getting on arguably the greatest defensive team in NFL history to even have his name known.

A better Dilfer comparison would be somebody like Mike Kruczek or Earl Morral. Dilfer doesn't deserve to be spoken in the same breath as Montana. Dilfer is a career backup outside his "I was better than Tony Banks" year in Baltimore as far as I'm concerned.

OpenID Jack Amok January 17, 2016 11:39 PM  

There are two minutes left in the game. On my final drive I want either Joe Montana or Ken Stabler as my quarterback.

I'd take Aaron Rodgers or Russell Wilson.

Blogger Nate January 17, 2016 11:43 PM  

"Dilfer to Joe Montana is a complete non sequitur, Nate."

The point sugar tits is that "leadership" is a bullshit myth. QB's can be the leaders of the team but for the most part they usually aren't. They are generally the leader of the offense but not always. Often its an RB or an old school O-linemen. Quite often the actual team leader is on D. A DL or an LB.

Trent Dilfer lead a team to the super bowl didn't he?

Oh wait... no he didn't. He sort of kinda managed a team to the super bowl.

And here's some bad news for ya...

That's all montana ever did.

Blogger Nate January 17, 2016 11:45 PM  

here's the sad truth. Take Chad Pendleton... and take away 10% of his arm strength and 10% of his accuracy...

And you'd have Joe Montana.

OpenID sigbouncer January 18, 2016 12:00 AM  

I don't know where this turned solely into a leadership issue? A complete turnaround from discussing the clutch play of a Montana versus the chokers like Elway and Peyton. This is why I called it a non sequitur.

But by all means keep on nut riding Dilfer and his 8-10 game stretch with the Ravens. What did he have, like 12 touchdowns, 11 interceptions a couple fumbles and complete like 58% of his passes? Yeah he's pretty much a Rex Grossman reincarnate when it comes to Super Bowl quarterbacks. Maybe even the second coming of Stan Humphries.

Anonymous 636 January 18, 2016 12:55 AM  

Jim Plunkett! Jim Plunkett! Jim Plunkett!

Blogger Gapeseed January 18, 2016 1:20 AM  

@93 Nate - As a Jets fan, I really appreciate any love shown for Chad Pennington, even if the bonnets were intended solely to denigrate Montana. People forget how good Pennington was - great brains and tremendous touch and accuracy. Were it not for assorted shoulder injuries, I think he would be remembered as a Montana-Brady type of artist.

OpenID malcolmthecynic January 18, 2016 1:28 AM  

Wait, so now you can win multiple super bowls, and be super bowl MVP, and still be known as a career choker?

So, basically, the not-chokers are only the people who win *almost every important game they play*.

This means our list of non-chokers is...Tom Brady, Joe Montana, and Terry Bradshaw.

Right?

Blogger BassmanCO January 18, 2016 1:50 AM  

Sigbouncer, did Elway choke all those Championship games to get to his first three Superbowls with crap teams? Seriously? Again, my point that he did what he did with nothing around him.

Statistics are relative in a team game, especially when hamstrung with a coach like Dan Reeves.

But keep telling me about how great Montana was with the talent he was consistently surrounded with. Moron.

Blogger BassmanCO January 18, 2016 1:51 AM  

Sigbouncer, did Elway choke all those Championship games to get to his first three Superbowls with crap teams? Seriously? Again, my point that he did what he did with nothing around him.

Statistics are relative in a team game, especially when hamstrung with a coach like Dan Reeves.

But keep telling me about how great Montana was with the talent he was consistently surrounded with. Moron.

OpenID sigbouncer January 18, 2016 2:17 AM  

@97

Yeah in the big game the choker plays far below his norm. Usually showing right out of the gate or at least early on in the game that they cannot handle the pressure. As posted previously, check their playoff stats versus regular season stats. There are indicators there. Playoff stats from these types inevitably go down in completion percentage, touchdown to interception ratio and QB rating when compared to their regular season stats.

You can add Bart Starr, Ken Stabler, Roger Staubach, Jim Plunkett, Troy Aikman, Kurt Warner, Eli Manning, Aaron Rodgers and Russell Wilson to the list of QBs who generally step up in the biggest games. I'd say all of these QBs have proven to be clutch performers in the biggest games more than once in their careers. And when they've lost in them. It's often been in shootouts or end of the game back and forths with another QB on this list. Where they basically lay blameless for the loss and did their jobs better than they normally would.

Blogger BassmanCO January 18, 2016 2:29 AM  

Sigbouncer, as pointed out by Nate and malcolmthecynic, your analysis is faulty and you're full of shit.

Anonymous G.Veil January 18, 2016 2:36 AM  

@Nate

Except that's not all he ever did and the very players he played with would disagree with you. Now if I handed you a list of teams like say the Patriots, Broncos, Cardinals, and Panthers and asked you who the leaders of those teams was I'm comfortable saying that Brady, Manning, and Newton are the leaders of those teams. Maybe Kuechly or Olsen for Carolina, but Manning and Brady are old heads on young teams, when the chips are down that's who the kids look too.

OpenID sigbouncer January 18, 2016 2:39 AM  

@98

Elway had plenty around him at various times in his career. In fact some very good defensive players in the names of Tom Jackson, Karl Mecklenberg, Louis Wright, Steve Atwater, Dennis Smith, Rulon Jones. They drafted RBs (Bobby Humphrey 1st round) and WRs early for Elway. Shannon Sharpe was there.

And Elway squeaking out playoff games by 1-3 points against Bernie Kosar (Cle) and Bubby Brister (Pitt) lead teams in the AFC playoffs is nothing to write home about. Especially when Elway needed help from Marty Schottenheimer with plays like Ernest Byner's fumble. And you wanna talk about a handicapped play calling, Marty takes the cake next to Bum Phillips. Reeves is much better than either one of them having taken two different teams to the Super Bowl. So quit your crybabying over Reeves and Elway's surrounding talent. It's all bullshit.

OpenID sigbouncer January 18, 2016 2:43 AM  

@101 BassmanCO

Nate and malcolm didn't prove a thing. Both of them bowed out of the discussion.

You're all alone with your Elway argument now sweety. Time to man up or take your ball and go home.

OpenID sigbouncer January 18, 2016 2:57 AM  

@102 G.Veil

I might call Tarik Glenn the leader of that Colts team over Peyton.

I can remember when Peyton was dumping all over Jeff Saturday on the sidelines during a game after a sack or a turnover and Tarik Glenn got up in Peyton's face and handed his ass to him. Peyton responded "alright alright you're right" and headed the other way away from the lineman.

OpenID malcolmthecynic January 18, 2016 3:04 AM  

Yeah in the big game the choker plays far below his norm. Usually showing right out of the gate or at least early on in the game that they cannot handle the pressure.

Got it. People who go to multiple super bowls, win multiple super bowls, are super bowl MVPS, and are famous for orchestrating a comeback drive in the final five minutes of the game so legendarily clutch it is known as "The Drive", are apparently chokers because in a statistically small sample size they're not as good as in their historically great regular reasons.

To put it another way - Playoff games probably make up something less than five percent of Elway's career games. That he underperformed in a lot of them says virtually nothing about his tendency to choke in big games, because when compared to his overall career he just didn't play in a lot of them (hence pitchers like Andy Pettitte being labeled all-time great postseason performers despite pitching almost exactly to their regular season standards - because Pettitte's sample size was so big it leveled out to career norms). It's white noise.

Maybe if he went his entire career like that, all right. But he didn't even win just one Super Bowl. He won TWO, and was Super Bowl MVP in one, and made it to ther super bowls. I think after the second super bowl and the super bowl MVP you've pretty much shed the "Choker" label.

I'm willing to say that being clutch is something that genuinely exists, and some QB's should get credit for it...but ultimately it's very difficult to try and draw hard conclusions from small sample sizes.

TL;DR: Your arguments are bad.

OpenID sigbouncer January 18, 2016 3:14 AM  

@107 malcolm

The stats only help to support what the eye test has already shown.

If you think Elway didn't choke in his Super Bowl games vs the Giants, Redskins and 49ers in the 80's then you didn't watch the games.

I stand by the QBs that I listed who are clutch QBs and who are the chokers. They passed or failed the eye test and have the stats to support it each way.

OpenID sigbouncer January 18, 2016 3:31 AM  

@107 malcolm

And I'd say Mike Shannahan, the offensive line and Terrell Davis are largely responsible for winning 2 Super Bowls. They were a dominant running team. Elway was a shell of himself at this point in his career.

Elway only threw for 123 yards (with 0 td passes and 1 int) versus Green Bay in his first Super Bowl win.

Rod Smith or Darien Gordon (2 interceptions returned for 108 yards) should have gotten the MVP vs Atlanta in the second one.

Bubby Brister was undefeated as the Denver starting QB that year (4-0) and even had a better record as the starter than Elway did (10-2). Proving they won without Elway just as easily.

Anonymous G.Veil January 18, 2016 3:48 AM  

@sigbouncer

I'm reluctant to make pronouncements on who was "the leader" of those Colts teams based off that one incident, but sure early in his career it would've been impossible for Manning to be the leader since he had to establish himself. Few people just jump feet first into that role and usually it's on young teams who lack the veteran leadership so someone has to take that mantle. My larger issue was Nate's statement Montana was nothing more than a game manager for those 49ers teams which directly contradicts the very players who played for and with the man. To compare Dilfer and Montana as players or leaders is beyond absurd, they don't belong in the same breath.

OpenID sigbouncer January 18, 2016 4:06 AM  

@111 G.Veil

Agreed. Comparing Dilfer to Montana in any capacity is just out there.

Blogger Nate January 18, 2016 7:39 AM  

" Were it not for assorted shoulder injuries, I think he would be remembered as a Montana-Brady type of artist. "

Kid had a ton of arm talent. Didn't have a big arm but in terms of accuracy... he was just a scalpel. He's the kind of QB that would've just walked down the field against a Bama D without even flinching. NFL throws beat Bama's D. Always have and always will.

Blogger Nate January 18, 2016 7:42 AM  

"Agreed. Comparing Dilfer to Montana in any capacity is just out there. "

No one is comparing Montana to dilfer. The point is that claiming that people swing from montana's balls because of the super bowls and championship games.

If Joe Montana was playing today, the way he played then, you'd all make fun of him for having a noodle arm. The dude can't complete anything more than 15 yards down the field and you can forget any kind of long across the body throw.

Now... if you want to talk about a 49ers QB... talk about Steve Young. Everything you think is true about Joe Monatana is wrong. But if you switch him out for Steve Young... it all becomes true.

Blogger Nate January 18, 2016 7:44 AM  

As for Joe's "clutch play"... again... its largely bullshit. A 5 yard throw to Jerry Rice is not clutch. Jerry Rice slicing threw a D for 30 extra yards doesn't make Joe clutch.

And yes... He was trying to throw the ball away on "the catch". He just has a weak ass arm so Clark was able to make a freakish play to go get it. On Joe's part... clutch had nothin to do with it. He was just trying to throw it out of bounds.

Blogger James Dixon January 18, 2016 8:24 AM  

> Greatest playoff QB - TB and JM are neck and neck. If TB wins another one, it is his for a long time.

While I agree, Terry Bradshaw retired a long time ago. :) That's like the folks who called LaDainian Tomlinson LT. Folks, there is only one LT in football, and he played on defense. Almost as bad a rating the top point guards of all time and leaving Jerry West off the list.

> There are two minutes left in the game. On my final drive I want either Joe Montana or Ken Stabler as my quarterback.

Is it a 1:00 east coast game? In that case I want the Snake. He'll have been out all night partying anyway and won't even notice it's an early start.

Now, I'll agree with the Montana fans here that he was the master of the short passing game. Probably better than any one ever has been. But Nate is right about him not being able to make the long passes and about "the catch". Joe had no idea Clark was there. He was throwing the ball away. And in that regard, he's also right about him being over rated.

Blogger Guitar Man January 18, 2016 8:38 AM  

The thing is, if Peyton Manning wasn't benched this year, the Broncos don't even make the playoffs.

Blogger BassmanCO January 18, 2016 9:45 AM  

Sigbouncer, I love how you keep saying Elway choked away those first three Superbowls when he willed far inferior teams to get to that game in the first place. Did you actually watch football in the late 80's and 90's?

It is like saying Michael Sphinx choked in his first round knockout loss to Mike Tyson. He didn't choke, he never should have been there in the first place.

OpenID malcolmthecynic January 18, 2016 10:53 AM  

If you think Elway didn't choke in his Super Bowl games vs the Giants, Redskins and 49ers in the 80's then you didn't watch the games.

You both don't understand what I said or what "choking" means.

You're exactly right. Football is a TEAM SPORT. Elway played good enough in his first win, was MVP in his second win, and his play carried teams that had no business being in a Super Bowl to the Super Bowl.

Blogger RobertT January 18, 2016 11:35 AM  

Consider this about the Broncos' chances. They have clawed their way back more than once to win. They may not blow anyone away but they are going to be hard to beat. The other one is their team culture. I don't know how to describe it, but t's different from any other Broncos team. Elway got what he wanted. When they go down, they go down kicking & screaming.

Anonymous redsash January 18, 2016 11:41 AM  

When you play for a team like the 80s Oakland Raiders, and they call you the Snake; well, it speaks VOLUMES MORE than the puny voices heard here.

I just drove through Foley Alabama and it made me a good quarterback; however, it could not overcome 20 years of living in Nashville and Vandy's shadow.

Blogger RobertT January 18, 2016 11:44 AM  

This is what I mean about the Broncos. From ESPN. "the Broncos have now played in 13 decided by seven or fewer points. They are 10-3 in those games." There hasn't been an easy win all year. No blowouts. I kinda like their chances.

Blogger RobertT January 18, 2016 11:45 AM  

This is what I mean about the Broncos. From ESPN. "the Broncos have now played in 13 decided by seven or fewer points. They are 10-3 in those games." There hasn't been an easy win all year. No blowouts. I kinda like their chances.

Blogger Nate January 18, 2016 11:54 AM  

"I just drove through Foley Alabama and it made me a good quarterback"

Hellfire Redsash you were 30 minutes from me

Blogger Nate January 18, 2016 12:04 PM  

"The thing is, if Peyton Manning wasn't benched this year, the Broncos don't even make the playoffs"

That means nothing. Like I said.. Peyton's arm is shot. Its moderately better now than it was because of some rest but it is still aweful. Even if they were to beat the Patsyfaggots... and I don't think they will... it won't say anyting about Peyton... becuase his arm is shot. Winning the super bowl won't say anything about him either. Because his arm is shot.

It will all be in spite of him. Not because of him.

But here is the primary difference with Peyton and Brady. Peyton proved it under different coaches and different organizations with lesser talent.

Brady has never done shit without the hoodie.

Brady will never be anything but Danny W of the Fun and Gun Gaytors.

Blogger RobertT January 18, 2016 12:30 PM  

Again from ESPN & Von Miller. On Broncos Culture: "But we just came out and do what we do, it’s nothing new now," Miller said Sunday. "This year, we handled adversity like I’ve never handled it before, I’ve never been on a team that handles adversity so well."

OpenID sigbouncer January 18, 2016 12:46 PM  

@112 113 Nate

Yeah Bill Walsh thought that for a minute or two with Young. But he went back to Montana and couldn't win without him. When Jerry Rice was asked just before Young's only Super Bowl versus San Diego who was the best QB he ever played with. Rice said to ask him after his career was over. And when they did he said Montana. So I guess you think you know more than Jerry Rice?

On the play to Clark. They practiced that play often. It was designed. You can't tell me any different. I have a friend who was a 2nd string WR on the 49ers with him. You don't know what you think you know. Walsh, Montana and Clark are all on record (NFL films) as well about the play being designed.

As for Montana having a noodle arm. 60 yarder in the air to Rice in stride as usual right here for your viewing pleasure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtN9jVoJPuw

Nothing wrong with his deep ball.

OpenID Jack Amok January 18, 2016 1:03 PM  

the Broncos have now played in 13 decided by seven or fewer points. They are 10-3 in those games

That's what happens with a great D and a low-scoring offense. I will find it hilarious (and astute on their part) if Denver makes it back to the SuperBowl against the Cardinals and pundits ask how the team with the great D can possibly keep up with the high-powered offense.

OpenID sigbouncer January 18, 2016 1:04 PM  

@ 116 117

So if Elways' Broncos had no business being in the Super Bowl tell me who did from the AFC then? Brister's Steelers with Merril Hodge as their lead back? Marty's Browns with Bernie?

The AFC blew during those years in comparison to the NFC. Elway's teams were there because somebody had to get there and they were the most talented of the bunch. Which is why a guy like Montana had to run the gamut against NFL legendary teams like Parcells Giants, Gibbs Redskins and Ditka's Bears during that time frame.

Elway choked in Super Bowls because he couldn't handle the pressure of the big game.

In the 55-10 loss to the 49ers Elway was 10 for 26 for 106 yards and 2 interceptions. NFL rookie of the year Bobby Humprey (a RB) lead all Elway receivers with 36 yards in that game, 27 coming on a Elway shovel pass as his longest pass play. It's the epitome of a choke job.

The year before that Elway completed just 14 of 38 passes versus Washington with 1 touchdown and 3 interceptions. Another total choke job by Elway in the Super Bowl in a 42-10 blowout loss.

Elway's first Super Bowl versus the Giants, more of the same. Two turnovers, sacked 3 times (including a safety) and just 1 touchdown pass in a 39-20 loss.

Elway always got rattled in those games and made major mistakes which lead to the blowouts. He will always be a choker because of this.

Blogger James Dixon January 18, 2016 2:08 PM  

> Walsh, Montana and Clark are all on record (NFL films) as well about the play being designed.

I've watched that play half a dozen times or more. I don't believe them.

Blogger Matamoros January 18, 2016 2:55 PM  

Just noticed this on Fr. Z's blog:

Football Player: “Maybe the coolest thing I’ve ever been a part of was a Latin Mass in London.”
Posted on 9 January 2016 by Fr. John Zuhlsdorf
Since I am a displaced Minnesotan, a reader thought that this bit of news might be of interest.

NCReg has an interview a player on Minnesota Vikings, Kevin McDermott, both a mackeral-snapper and a long-snapper.

Here is the bit that caught my eye:

Q: How does the Catholic Church help you the most?

McDermott: "What gives me the most strength and security is being a part of the routines and rituals of the Church. I realized in high school, partially due to a retreat in my junior year, how dependent I was on a regular schedule that included Sunday Mass. Then, as pro football became more and more of a real-life possibility, I was determined to keep up a schedule based on traditional spirituality.
I wanted to do well in football, for sure, but football was not going to get in the way of being a good Catholic. Every week for me in the NFL — whether that was preseason, regular season or postseason — has also included a Sunday Mass, which, most of the time, has been done the evening before games.
Maybe the coolest thing I’ve ever been a part of was a Latin Mass in London. The 49ers were over there in 2013 for a game against the Jacksonville Jaguars, and the priest made available to the team only did Latin Masses. Usually, people associate traditional Masses like that with beautiful cathedrals — something I’ve experienced as an altar boy in Nashville — but this time, it was in a conference room of a hotel.
Despite the plain surroundings, or maybe even because of them, I was so enthralled and moved by what was happening. It was an ordinary situation made quite extraordinary through the beautiful gift of the Latin Mass. Being a part of that with my teammates was unexpected and much appreciated."

Do I hear an “Amen!”?

Read the whole interview over there. [http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/irish-viking-navigates-rocky-seas-of-the-nfl/ ]

This part was good, too:

"I pray Hail Marys while we’re on offense, so it can be said that all of our passes are Hail Mary passes. The Hail Mary is a prayer for any place or time, but two of the benefits of praying it during games are being reminded of how blessed I am that my job is playing a game and keeping my mind engaged in a routine. …

"Being a good Catholic is more important than being a good football player, but you can be both."

Blogger BassmanCO January 18, 2016 3:19 PM  

Sigbouncer, show us on the doll where Elway touched you.

OpenID malcolmthecynic January 18, 2016 3:37 PM  

Elway always got rattled in those games and made major mistakes which lead to the blowouts. He will always be a choker because of this.

Dude...He won two Super Bowls. Multiple. More than won. And made it to others. He was MVP of one Super Bowl. He got average teams to Super Bowls that had no business being there.

You are so, so wrong. Totally and completely wrong. And it is glaringly obvious to everybody but you. Seriously, stop. You're embarrassing yourself. Your argument is just bad.

Blogger BassmanCO January 18, 2016 3:42 PM  

Sigbouncer, show us on the doll where Elway touched you.

OpenID sigbouncer January 18, 2016 3:45 PM  

@130 BassmanCO

So instead of answering the question you come back with a post about your golden boy blow up doll? Okay, I'll take that as a win.

But now we have to erase the mental picture of you in your Broncos pajamas with your Elway doll screaming with pleasure "less teeth Johnny, less teeth".

OpenID sigbouncer January 18, 2016 4:04 PM  

@131 malcolm

"He got average teams to Super Bowls that had no business being there."

Bullshit. If his team had no business being there then explain why his Broncos were favored by 3 points over Washington in Super Bowl XXII?

http://www.vegasinsider.com/nfl/superbowl/history/

Blogger BassmanCO January 18, 2016 7:05 PM  

Sigbouncer, the train is fine.

Blogger BassmanCO January 18, 2016 7:05 PM  

Sigbouncer, the train is fine.

OpenID sigbouncer January 18, 2016 9:55 PM  

What's funny about the two Elway nut riders here is the fact that Elway very likely had more power over who was on his team than any other player in that era. As the spoiled child wouldn't report to the team (Colts) that drafted him. Elway had to name the only team he was willing to play for or he threatened to pursue a baseball career.

Elway named both the team (Broncos) and his price (contract). Then Elway eventually wormed his way into the team President position after he was done playing. Losing another Super Bowl in the process. As Elway ironically picked another choker (Peyton) just like himself for his quarterback.

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