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Friday, January 22, 2016

Pity the poor orcs

The Head of the White Council writes an important letter to the Minas Tirith Times:
One of the major challenges that we face today, on a global scale, is how to protect people who have been forced, by armed conflict, human right abuse or other forms of persecution to flee their homelands.

  Overwhelmingly, refugees do not willingly leave their homes and families.   They do not come to Gondor seeking financial advancement.   Most do not even leave with a final destination in mind.

   They leave because of the fear of what will happen to them if they don’t.

  They leave because of the persecution and abuse that they have faced on a daily basis.

  As a country, Gondor shares responsibility with the rest of the international community, for protecting these refugees by offering them a place where they can be safe. 
Read the rest of it there.

Labels:

97 Comments:

Blogger White Knight Leo #0368 January 22, 2016 2:34 PM  

That is absolutely brilliant satire. It's actually better than that "left handedness" one that got that college kid in trouble a while back.

Blogger benning January 22, 2016 2:46 PM  

Plenty of room, and air-conditioned tents, in Saudi Arabia. Less travel, too. :D

Blogger Lovekraft January 22, 2016 2:46 PM  

Big debate over at youtube re Sargon of Akkad's new banhammer policy. Basically, from what I gather, Sargon is arguing that youtube/google could easily connect a 'hateful' comment as being incited by Sargon's video. So Sargon is saying he won't allow comments, and eventually the commenter, if it can be googletwisted into hate speech.

Chilling.

Blogger L. Beau January 22, 2016 3:00 PM  

Sarumaaaan!

Or, if one is a fan of Ralph Bakshi, "Aruuumaaaan!"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qqgPa33mXU

Anonymous Wyrd January 22, 2016 3:00 PM  

#OrcLivesMatter

Blogger Drew January 22, 2016 3:03 PM  

Think of all those Easterling refugees, fleeing from their wicked and oppressive homes. Shouldn't the West grant them asylum?

Anonymous Philipp January 22, 2016 3:04 PM  

Downright brilliant! Not just the article but also the comments.

Blogger tz January 22, 2016 3:08 PM  

Such a leader needs to go up and down in flames (think of the children) like Denethor.
Let's go out in a blaze of glory. Pity he couldn't have catapulted so as to ignite one of the siege engines, but you can't have everything.

Blogger White Knight Leo #0368 January 22, 2016 3:17 PM  

"They are people who grace us with their presence"

This is the giveaway line. This is the one line you point to if you want to highlight the trainwreck in this person's mind.

Anonymous Epimandes January 22, 2016 3:44 PM  

Any conservative who isn't funding, constructing, or designing the future capital of Welthauptstadt Americana is a cuck.

Blogger White Knight Leo #0368 January 22, 2016 3:49 PM  

@10

Sounds like a violation of Godwin's Law to me.

Wiki had this to say: "The title 'Welthauptstadt' was chosen because it was felt that Berlin's architecture was at that time too provincial, and that there was a driving need to put Berlin on a par with, and exceed the quality of, other world capitals such as London, Paris and especially Rome."

This is a laudable goal to you?

Anonymous Epimandes January 22, 2016 4:03 PM  

@11 I will admit that Hitler was a total hipster.

To be perfectly honest, the only difference I see between the alt-right rhetoric and that of the historical Nazis is the degree to which they're prepared to engage in ethnic cleansing and the groups they're targeting. To the Nazis, the "orcs" were Jews and Slavs, and the plan to "make Germany great again" was systematic mass murder of both of those groups. To the alt-right, the "orcs" are Muslims, Mexicans, and black people, and the plan to "make Western civilization great again" is to forcibly displace the two former groups and confine the latter group into ghettos.

Anonymous Epimandes January 22, 2016 4:06 PM  

By the way Vox, advocating for ethnic cleansing is a crime against humanity under the Geneva convention. Just a heads up before you're sentenced to The Hague and join your hero Slobodan Milošević.

Blogger White Knight Leo #0368 January 22, 2016 4:06 PM  

@12

I don't agree with any of that. At all.

Blogger White Knight Leo #0368 January 22, 2016 4:07 PM  

@13

And now you've gone into full bat-shit territory. Nicely done.

Blogger Ingot9455 January 22, 2016 4:09 PM  

The difference between the Nazis and the alt-right is that the alt-right actually has recent video of their orcs leering, pinning, groping, and finger-raping white women.

Blogger Ahazuerus January 22, 2016 4:12 PM  

"They are people who grace us with their presence."

And sperm.

Anonymous M.414 January 22, 2016 4:13 PM  

I'm breaking out the popcorn.

I don't recall jews running through the streets of Berlin raping women and burning the place down. Of course I'm a product of American school systems and my education maybe deficient.

I also don't recall the last time a jew has been seen with a severed head in hand while screaming the equivalent of "aloha snackbar'

So pardon me if I find your analogy a touch weak.

Blogger VD January 22, 2016 4:18 PM  

By the way Vox, advocating for ethnic cleansing is a crime against humanity under the Geneva convention.

That's nice. By the way, treason is a capital offense. I'd say you're in considerably more danger than I am, given that you're actually guilty of it.

Anonymous M.414 January 22, 2016 4:23 PM  

The phrase "Whose bitch is this?" comes to mind for some reason.

Blogger clk January 22, 2016 4:24 PM  

Well Saruman was multicolored in the end....

Anonymous Franknorman January 22, 2016 4:24 PM  

Looks like Epimandes just tried the "Waah I'm gonna tell on you!" tactic.

Notice how in the twisted logic of the Rabbit-people, if one nation invades another, it's the people of the invaded country who are at fault if they defend themselves.

Blogger SciVo January 22, 2016 4:27 PM  

VD, have you seen this? German "Identitarians" list their grievances and declare their intent: Zukunft für Europa - Identitäre Bewegung (with English subtitles)

Blogger Josh January 22, 2016 4:28 PM  

The phrase "Whose bitch is this?" comes to mind for some reason.

Your version is significantly more grammatically correct than the original.

Blogger SciVo January 22, 2016 4:28 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Student in Blue January 22, 2016 4:29 PM  

@20. M.414
The phrase "Whose bitch is this?" comes to mind for some reason.

Sir, please. Please!

Watch your tongue. We don't need language like that.

It's clearly, "who bitch this is!?"

Blogger clk January 22, 2016 4:36 PM  

@12 To be perfectly honest, the only difference I see between the alt-right rhetoric and that of the historical Nazis is the degree....

Historically it always starts this way .. rhetoric to demonizing the "enemy", once the other side is viewed as nonhuman then slaughtering them becomes easy... i dont think the alt right really intends to go there because there is a core of christian values that a large potion have which will i hope moderate the reactions...but there is always a risk that some unstable individual will adopt the rhetoric at face value and act on it...like Roof...and then theres chaos which is part of what is desired by those that create such rhetoric in the first place...

Anonymous Soga January 22, 2016 4:36 PM  

You know you're batshit insane when even our token moderate, WKL, who tries to give everybody the benefit of the doubt (even if they showed up and declared that they liked rape; btw, that's you), thinks you're batshit insane. Nice going, Epi.

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer January 22, 2016 4:42 PM  

advocating for ethnic cleansing is a crime against humanity under the Geneva convention.

Would you mind pointing me to the article in the Geneva Convention that defines advocating for ethnic cleansing as a crime against humanity?

I know the 49th article of the 4th Geneva Convention forbids “individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country. But that is during a time of war. Deportation of illegal aliens certainly would not fall under its purview. And advocating for the enforcement of already existing laws relating to immigration most certainly would not.

Blogger JCclimber January 22, 2016 4:43 PM  

How do we link the above to the National Review Cuckservative swimsuit issue?

Blogger Tom Kratman January 22, 2016 4:44 PM  

I don't suppose, Epimandes, that you can come up with which Geneva Convention (there are four) bars ethnic cleansing, directly, and which section within the pertinent convention does so? I'll give you a hint, look in GC IV. However, please spare us citing to non-Geneva convention treaties, the protocols additional to the GCs, which we have not ratified, to opinions of the ICRC, to UN votes and decrees, to something that forbids importing your own population without reference to ex- or deporting the previous population, and such.

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer January 22, 2016 4:44 PM  

To be perfectly honest, the only difference I see between the alt-right rhetoric and that of the historical Nazis is the degree....

Historically it always starts this way .. rhetoric to demonizing the "enemy", once the other side is viewed as nonhuman then slaughtering them becomes easy


They don't even see it. They aren't capable of that much self-reflection.

Its ok to imprison and kill the Nazis.

Blogger Tom Kratman January 22, 2016 4:46 PM  

Ron, it also relates to war of an international character but not to civil wars or strife not of an international character.

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer January 22, 2016 4:50 PM  

@Tom

My guess is somebody told him that ethnic cleansing was against the Geneva Convention and that is about as much as he knows about it.

Blogger Feather Blade January 22, 2016 4:51 PM  

@12 the plan to "make Western civilization great again" is to forcibly displace the two former groups and confine the latter group into ghettos.

Please, they confine themselves to ghettos. And we'd be fine with the former tow groups peaceably displacing themselves.

Blogger Nate January 22, 2016 4:53 PM  

Not to give it away... but this one bit of info is to good to keep to myself.

That whole satire piece...is actually taken practically word for word from an Australian Politicians Speech given in honor of "refugee week".

Blogger Nate January 22, 2016 4:53 PM  

because honestly... there is no damn way I could come up with all that bullshit on my own.

Blogger Tom Kratman January 22, 2016 4:58 PM  

Oh, I'm sure.

Blogger White Knight Leo #0368 January 22, 2016 5:09 PM  

@36

Even the "they grace us with their presence" line?

That's... sad. That's really sad when a speech you give is that easily converted to satire.

Blogger Nate January 22, 2016 5:12 PM  

"Even the "they grace us with their presence" line?"

Oh yeah... the only bit I wrote was the last two paragraphs about the Nazgul and the Eagles.

I couldn't have come up with that "enhance our diversity" crap on my own... I would've assumed it would be to obvious. Finding something that overtly pathetic and cheesy in the speech was to much to pass up.

Blogger White Knight Leo #0368 January 22, 2016 5:13 PM  

@28

I'll go no further than giving the benefit of the doubt to the family of a rapist - and even then, the moment any of them say something like "she was asking for it" even that goes out the window.

And I'm only a moderate compared to you guys. This guy would consider me a rabid hood-wearing cross-burner.

OpenID vfmshadow0342 January 22, 2016 5:15 PM  

@12:

1) The Nazis were National SOCIALISTs (Left-wing)

2) They got their ideas from progressives such as Oliver Wendell Holmes, and were quoting US law chapter and verse (Buck v. Bell) at Nuremburg.

3) Margaret Sanger founded Planned Parenthood, which has exterminated +50 million child to date, and has (in her writings) explicitly stated that her purpose was to exterminate 'inferior races'.

4) Today's progressives defend to the death the 'freedom' of a woman to voluntarily kill her own child (or as us Bible scholars call it: Moloch worship).

Sense a pattern here?

Have a nice day.

Blogger Were-Puppy January 22, 2016 5:57 PM  

@30 JCclimber
How do we link the above to the National Review Cuckservative swimsuit issue?
---

I heard this year they were going to "reach across the aisle" and get Hitlery and Washer-Doberman-Shultz for it

Blogger Neanderserk January 22, 2016 5:59 PM  

If you dislike ethnic cleansing, don't play in the mud.

Anonymous Epimandes January 22, 2016 6:18 PM  

@42

I know that Jonah Goldberg wrote a big book about this (I read the entire thing), but you should understand that the idea that "Nazis = left-wing" is not taken seriously by very many historians today. As it is, a better explanation to the similarities between the Nazis and the Communist movements of the 20th century is the horseshoe theory of political ideologies. Here is some interesting evidence that lends credence to the notion that Nazis were right-wing that you may not be aware of:

(1) Hitler was vehemently anti-gay, as evidenced by the mass murder of homosexuals in extermination camps.

(2) The S.S. made all their members swear to an oath that said that atheists are stupid people and can play no part in Nazi society.

(3) Hitler was vehemently against social equality, and believed any effort toward social justice or promoting a more equal society was directed, either overtly or covertly, by the Jews.

(4) Hitler was vehemently against Germany having any demographic besides Germans.

(5) Hitler was, in principle, against abortion, but did support abortion as a means of extermination for Jews, Slavs, and any other undesirable. This is why Nazi Germany forbid German women from procuring abortions, but did not ban abortion for untermenschen, and one could easily infer that in his ideal society of an all-Aryan Europe there would be no such thing as abortion.

Anonymous Arbeit macht frei January 22, 2016 6:43 PM  

And these positions are right wing how?

Spare us the argumentum ad verecundiam.

It's tiresome.

The train is fine.

Blogger weka January 22, 2016 6:57 PM  

Well, if we don't have a nice peaceful reintegration of the Orcs into Mordor, there will be Warre.
For Rohan rode against the Orcs form Isengard, Saruman's Sanctury city.
Orcs were just bein' Orcs.

And it is which Orc this bitch meal be? Get it right.

Blogger Jon M January 22, 2016 7:06 PM  

Look at the first three, Arbeit. Only right wing conservatives believe that stuff. You know, right wingers like all those Muslim supporters you see... at the Trump rallies?

It's normal sloppy thinking for the typical SJW. "I hate right wingers and I am not right wing, thetefore anyone who disagrees with me is right wing. Even if that means making bedfellows of groups as wide ranging as Mormons, Amish, Muslims and PEGIDA."

Blogger Nate January 22, 2016 7:18 PM  

"I know that Jonah Goldberg wrote a big book about this (I read the entire thing), but you should understand that the idea that "Nazis = left-wing" is not taken seriously by very many historians today. "

In 2007 Austrian Economics was taken seriously by very few economists. And yet the market crashed anyway. This is stupid argument.

Lets move on to your other points...

1) Anti gay = Right wing? How is that right wing? Also... given that the Nazis were pro-womens suffrage off set this? Of course it does. Dumb Dumb.

2)The fact the SS existed is proof enough that its left wing. And being anti-atheist isn't right wing you dumb dumb. Its authoritarian.. which makes it left wing.

3) And yet he was pro-womens suffrage. /facepalm Shut up dumb dumb.

4)That position is neither left nor right wing. ITs nationalist. You can be nationalist left or nationalist right.

5)I don't even know what you're attempting to say here. ITs like you're arguing against yourself. So hitler was Right Wing because he was Pro-choice except when he wasn't? YOU STUPID FUCK. You realize by this definition Margaret Sanger is right wing?


Now... run along and pester someone more in line with your own cognitive ability... assuming you can get them to stop eating the crayons long enough to listen to you.

HEY

STOP LICKING THE WINDOW

Blogger Krul January 22, 2016 7:47 PM  

@42 Epimandes - "As it is, a better explanation to the similarities between the Nazis and the Communist movements of the 20th century is the horseshoe theory of political ideologies."

"How strange! The Nazis and the Communists are remarkably similar, even though the former is far right and the latter is far left. What could explain this baffling conundrum?"

"Maybe we've mislabeled one of them?"

"Don't be silly! Clearly this requires a complete reevaluation of the entire political spectrum!"

Blogger Nate January 22, 2016 7:52 PM  

""Don't be silly! Clearly this requires a complete reevaluation of the entire political spectrum!""

Exactly.

its the same old bullshit of them trying to claim that extremes are bad.

Blogger Jon M January 22, 2016 7:56 PM  

While simultaneously declaring themselves to be sole arbiter of what counts as 'extreme'. Conveeeenient.

Blogger Nate January 22, 2016 8:01 PM  

"While simultaneously declaring themselves to be sole arbiter of what counts as 'extreme'. Conveeeenient."

no see they are mmmmmmmmmoderates! They are just oh so reasonable and don't you realize its CURRENT YEAR

Blogger Krul January 22, 2016 8:04 PM  

Ayn Rand on "Extremism"

"Are an extreme of health and an extreme of disease equally undesirable? Are extreme intelligence and extreme stupidity—both equally far removed “from the ordinary or average”—equally unworthy? Are extreme honesty and extreme dishonesty equally immoral? Are a man of extreme virtue and a man of extreme depravity equally evil?"

Anonymous Epimandes January 22, 2016 9:05 PM  

@54 It's rather ironic that a die-hard Aristotelian like Ayn Rand is dismissing moderation, as that was Aristotle's main theme in Nicomachean Ethics.

Blogger Nate January 22, 2016 9:08 PM  

/facepalm

Blogger Krul January 22, 2016 9:18 PM  

@55 It's less ironic when you know that Ayn Rand was not a "die-hard Aristotelian", but was in fact an Objectivist who admired Aristotle but nevertheless explicitly rejected several aspects of his philosophy, including his theory of concepts and, relevantly, his ethics.

Blogger Nate January 22, 2016 9:28 PM  

@57 that's what I said in @56

Blogger Krul January 22, 2016 9:37 PM  

@58 I thought you said that Aristotle's "moderation" meant an intermediate between vices of "excess" and vices of "deficiency" (e.g. "courage" as an intermediate between "rashness" and "cowardice"), and had nothing to do with political "moderation". Slight misreading there, forgive me.

Blogger Kristophr January 22, 2016 9:40 PM  

"Nay means nay!"

Anonymous BigGayKoranBurner January 22, 2016 10:04 PM  

By the way Vox, advocating for ethnic cleansing is a crime against humanity under the Geneva convention

Well they have not prosecuted General Clark and Barbra Specter

American general, Wesley Clark, who was in charge of the NATO bombing of Serbia in 1999. As he explained:
“There is no place in modern Europe for ethnically pure states. That’s a 19th-century idea, and we are trying to transition into the 21st century, and we are going to do it with multi-ethnic states.”
"I am the oldest son, of the oldest son, of the oldest son - at least five generations, and they were all rabbis."
Gen. Wesley Clark revels in his Jewish roots speaking to students at a Brooklyn yeshiva 1999. (Ron Kampeas, The Jewish Telegraphic Agency)

Anonymous Alice De Goon January 22, 2016 10:16 PM  

OT: BlackLivesMatter takes over the Oscars:

https://www.yahoo.com/movies/academy-overhauls-membership-voting-rules-to-202831225.html

This might upset me if I still watched movies...

Blogger Dire Badger January 22, 2016 11:38 PM  

I have lost all respect for Mark Ruffalo. He is not Hulk, he is not Banner, he is traitor nebbish.

Anonymous Ain January 22, 2016 11:53 PM  

It's their pageant. They can shit over it all they please.

Anonymous Ad Victoriam January 23, 2016 12:19 AM  

Locals Fled Pool After Migrants Masturbated Into Jacuzzi, Defecated Into Kid’s Pool, Invaded Girls Changing Rooms
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/01/22/locals-fled-pool-after-migrants-masturbated-into-jacuzzi-defecated-into-kids-pool-molested-bathers/
No one could have seen this one cumming, err, coming ... Seriously, who let the savages in and didn't think this would happen? I would seriously like to see before and after SJW brain scans and IQ tests. There is no way that quantifiable cognition is not dropping upon infection with leftist radicalism.

Anonymous Desiderius January 23, 2016 12:20 AM  

"This might upset me if I still watched movies..."

It might be an improvement over the current pozzed out SWPL dominance.

Anonymous Nate2ofX January 23, 2016 12:28 AM  

@65 Pool's Closed, Due to AIDs

Anonymous Flyover Resident January 23, 2016 12:50 AM  

@12

To the left, "the orcs" to be eliminated are indigenous Europeans and pre-1965 Americans/Australians.

I know which side I'm on when it comes to that.

Blogger John Wright January 23, 2016 1:53 AM  

"(1) Hitler was vehemently anti-gay, as evidenced by ..."

The fact that his mentor Rahm, was gay, and his right hand man, Goebbels.

Please, spare us. The German Socialist Workers' Party was Socialist. They were revolutionary and bent on the overthrow of the ancien regime of throne and altar, and hated the freemarket, classical liberal system with a passion.

The only reason why the Commies hate the Nazis and visa versa is Odium Theologicum. The differences between the theology and dogma of the two groups is invisible to the outsider. Both forms of totalitarian socialism look the same to individualists.

You see, nazis could argue with and recruit commies, and commies could turn nazis. They were and are twins.

The 'horseshoe theory' is crap because there is no place for someone who believes in constitutional representative government, separation of powers, and gun rights to fit on it.

Gun rights is the key. Nazis and Commies and You: gungrabbers. Washington and Jefferson: gun rights.

So the idea of calling Washington a Nazi on the grounds that he was not a commie -- which is in effect what the horseshit, pardon me, horseshoe classification system does, is a lie and an absurdity.

Almost as absurd as trying to distance yourself from the Nazis.

Come now: aside from the racism, what, if anything, did you dislike about the Nazis?

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/naziprog.html

Blogger John Wright January 23, 2016 1:59 AM  

Here, I will help you out, if you are too lazy to click through the link. You can tell me where on your political spectrum which runs from one form of totalitarian socialism all the way to another form indistinguishable from it, these policy points go.

I can explain any historical tidbits to you, such as what is Roman Law, if you get confused.
Here follows quotes from the Political Platform of the National German Workers' Party of 1933. The words below are theirs, not mine.

* * * * *

We therefore demand:

11. The abolition of all income obtained without labor or effort.

12. ...personal gain from the war must be termed a crime against the nation. We therefore demand the total confiscation of all war profits.

13. We demand the nationalization of all enterprises....

14. We demand profit-sharing in large enterprises.

15. We demand the large-scale development of old-age pension schemes.

16. We demand... the immediate communalization of the large department stores...

17. We demand land reform in accordance with our national needs and a law for expropriation without compensation of land for public purposes. Abolition of ground rent and prevention of all speculation in land.

18. We demand ruthless battle against those who harm the common good by their activities. Persons committing base crimes against the People, usurers, profiteers, etc., are to be punished by death without regard to religion or race.

19. We demand the replacement of Roman Law, which serves a materialistic World Order, by German Law.

20. In order to make higher education – and thereby entry into leading positions – available to every able and industrious German, the State must provide a thorough restructuring of our entire public educational system. The courses of study at all educational institutions are to be adjusted to meet the requirements of practical life. Understanding of the concept of the State must be achieved through the schools (teaching of civics) at the earliest age at which it can be grasped. We demand the education at the public expense of specially gifted children of poor parents, without regard to the latters’ position or occupation.

21. The State must raise the level of national health by means of mother-and-child care, the banning of juvenile labor, achievements of physical fitness through legislation for compulsory gymnastics ...

22. We demand the abolition of hireling troops and the creation of a national army.

23. We demand laws to fight against deliberate political lies and their dissemination by the press. ...


... We demand laws against trends in art and literature which have a destructive effect on our national life, and the suppression of performances that offend ....

24. We demand freedom for all religious denominations, provided that they do not endanger the existence of the State or offend the concepts of decency and morality of the Germanic race.

The Party as such stands for positive Christianity, without associating itself with any particular denomination.

Anonymous Saruman of Many Colours January 23, 2016 2:13 AM  

Monoethnic cultures like Rohan are things of the past. We need modern thinking for today's problems. We need to import workers who will do the jobs that Rohirrim will not do. Calling these refugees and undocumented migrants 'orcs', 'goblins', and 'trolls' is simply racist. There will be conflict with the ancient cultural ways of the refugees and the Rohirrim however we can all be better educated to understand their ancient culture (which by the way is older and superior to Edain culture and it's off-shoots).

And in any case the immigrants are here to stay. They are too many now to move all of them. We must make them welcome anything else would be racist.

Sincerely,
Saruman of Many Colours

Blogger Jon M January 23, 2016 3:49 AM  

Besides, our pushed the stone age hillmen off their land thousands of years ago. For us to refuse to allow other to migrate to these lands today would be hypocritical.

Wormtongue 2016!

Blogger Tom Kratman January 23, 2016 8:29 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Tom Kratman January 23, 2016 8:31 AM  

@John Wright:

Nurture-Nature, John. At least as a penultimate question. And they were distinguishable in that key question.

Blogger Tom Kratman January 23, 2016 8:32 AM  

Krul: Ayn Rand...I don't know that she was ever especially honest in an argument. In that case, she's using examples so far removed from what she purports to be talking about, political extremism, that one can't help but sneer at the muddy wallowing and crawling of her mind.

As for Nazism being left wing...no. Try this: Imagine Lysenkoism in Hitler's Germany. Could never happen. Also contemplate the use of false advertising (though, of course, here in America we _never_ see politically motivated false advertising). Further consider that tactics do not define strategy or philosophy.

Anonymous basementhomebrewer January 23, 2016 10:03 AM  

It's a bridge they can't cross when it comes to Nazis and leftists. They can't admit that eugenics was a progressive idea. They can't admit the klan was a Democrat organization etc. If they did they would have to admit they traded racism against Jews and blacks for racism against whites. They continue to preach that racism is a right wing idea when it is observably practiced by the left.

Blogger Nate January 23, 2016 10:50 AM  

"Nurture-Nature, John. At least as a penultimate question. And they were distinguishable in that key question."

No Tom. I know ya read that somewhere and it impressed you. But that's not the primary issue with Right Wing and Left Wing.

The difference between right wing and left is a spectrum of authoritarianism. Nothing more.

Blogger Blastman January 23, 2016 11:32 AM  

@Epimandes ... (3) Hitler was vehemently against social equality, and believed any effort toward social justice or promoting a more equal society was directed, either overtly or covertly, by the Jews.

No, Nazi (which is National Socialism) just had a different and more limited version of equality from other forms of socialism. It was National equality.

Völkisch equality ... (Völkisch = Nationalist)

Nazism rejected the conception of universal equality of individuals.[1]:43-50 Only those who qualified as Aryans were allowed full legal rights, including equality before the law.[1]:43 This type of equality was not an equality of people as individuals but as a master race, and thus individuals' interests were subordinate to the collective interest of the Volksgemeinschaft.[1]:47 The Nazis were opposed to the conventional universal conception of equality. They claimed to support Völkisch equality, but at the same time Nazism was committed to intensifying human inequality as a whole to allow the German people to become the "new master class" of the world.[1]:43 People outside of German blood were automatically considered unequal and inferior and thus denied the rights of those of German blood.[1]:50

The Nazis advocated a welfare state for German citizens (able Germans of Aryan racial descent) as a means to provide social justice and eliminate social barriers between the German people.[2] The Nazis provided equal access to education for talented children of workers and peasants.[3] Hitler claimed that equality of opportunity for all racially-sound German males was the meaning of the "socialism" of National Socialism.[3]

The Nazis sought to dismantle what they deemed to be an unnatural hierarchy of the middle class and nobility who had allegedly jealously kept their wealth and titles while failing to justify their hierarchical position through their actions in World War I.


Blogger Krul January 23, 2016 12:49 PM  

@75 Tom Kratman - "Ayn Rand...I don't know that she was ever especially honest in an argument. In that case, she's using examples so far removed from what she purports to be talking about, political extremism, that one can't help but sneer at the muddy wallowing and crawling of her mind."

It only seems "muddy" because I quoted it out of context. You can read it in context by clicking on the link.

The point is to underscore Nate's point in @51 that the claim that "extremes" are bad is foolish. The passage I quoted vividly demonstrates that "extreme" by itself is a neutral concept, neither good nor bad, and therefore that condemning someone because of their "extreme" beliefs is nonsense. Rand offers it as part of a larger discussion of how the label "extremism" is a smear that doesn't accurately categorize groups but rationalizes their exclusion from public discourse.

"As for Nazism being left wing...no."

Lysenkoism, like Epimandes' list in @42 , is a non-essential characteristic, meaning that groups can disagree about them and remain left wing. You might as well say the wore different color clothing.

It is obvious that on any coherent political spectrum, the National Socialist Worker's Party belongs in the neighborhood of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, and that they both belong well away from any form of democracy and explicit capitalism. If you have to twist your spectrum into horseshoes and pretzels and mobius strips to make this happen, then maybe you're using the wrong metric.

Blogger Tom K. January 23, 2016 2:00 PM  

Excellent information. Thanks.

Sounds clearly right wing

/sarcasmsign

Blogger Tom K. January 23, 2016 2:02 PM  

Excellent information. Thanks.

Sounds clearly right wing

/sarcasmsign

Anonymous BigGayKoranBurner January 23, 2016 3:29 PM  

I also don't recall the last time a jew has been seen with a severed head in hand while screaming the equivalent of "aloha snackbar'

The traitor at the gate is far worse than the moslems they let in, see the Spanish inquisition.

I couldn't have come up with that "enhance our diversity"... I would've assumed it would be to obvious

It gets harder to tell sarcasm from leftism every year.

45 (1) Hitler was vehemently anti-gay, as evidenced by the mass murder of homosexuals in extermination camps

Did you forget the brown shirts? Any gay that was not in a camp for other reasons could leave the camp with a clean record by simply having sex with a woman, and they would provide a woman prisoner. Screw a woman to walk free/clear or stay in jail, after the first day of breaking rocks you would at least consider it. Insert virtue signaling that they would rather die than walk free.

3) Hitler was vehemently against social equality Reality opposes equality

(4) Hitler was vehemently against Germany having any demographic besides Germans.

When I go to London I don't want to see Somalia, or be beheaded. Evolution didn't stop at the neck in humans.

Blogger Tom Kratman January 23, 2016 4:21 PM  

It won't change that she was using examples that didn't relate to the argument, Krul. Perhaps she had to use them because she couldn't come up with an historic example of an extreme political system that worked very well for very long for much of anybody...whioh just adds to my impression of her fundamental intellectual dishonesty.

Blogger Tom Kratman January 23, 2016 4:24 PM  

@Nate. The only place I ever read it was wherever I wrote it. And, no, that's a silly scale, for silly people. Its only virtue, and that is only if one partakes of the brain dead libertarian or objectivist (which was nothing of the kind) fantasy, is that it will make you seem important, rather than the historical-philosophical-political irrelevancy that you are.

Blogger Tom Kratman January 23, 2016 4:26 PM  

Sorry, missed something, Krul. No, it's not an outlier. It could only take place in a society that viewed man as utterly malleable by training, education, propagandization, and relentless bloody nagging. You will find versions of it still, today, on the left which refuses to recognize even the most obvious and irrefutable effects of genetics. It could never have arisen under Nazism because, while they saw tactical value in control of education, etc., ultimately their faith was in genes, not memes.

Blogger Ahazuerus January 24, 2016 4:34 AM  

"ultimately their faith was in genes, not memes."

Looks like a false dichotomy. The leftists have absolute faith in genes, but perverted by the viral meme which holds that all human genes are equal.

The nazis had absolute faith in genes, but perverted by the viral meme that their own genes were sufficiently superior to allow them to build a replacement British Empire.

(How'd that work out, empirically? For either of them? /rhetorical )

Sane people understand that genetic distributions demonstrate complex probabilities that predict general trends over large populations and long times, not individual circumstances for either persons or nations.

If you cannot deal with the fact that the national socialists were socialist, then you can't deal with reality. Try taking drugs.

Blogger Tom Kratman January 24, 2016 1:24 PM  

No, they don't. They have absolute faith in training, education, propagandization, and nagging. Oh, and social engineering; mustn't forget that.

Now there is a subset of the left tha believes man is already altruistic, perfect, good, a sort of New Soviet Man minus Leninism., but has been perverted by, to paraphrase, 'our corrupt, iniquitous, unfair, doubleplusungood, and thoroughly rotten society.' That, however , is just sleight of hand for the notion that man is utterly malleable by environment.

If you cannot deal with the fact of false advertising for political advantage, or that at no time prior to 1943 were the Nazis nearly as Great Britain under Churchill or Roosevelt's US, then I doubt even drugs will help you.

What kind of fucking idiot are you, by the way, to accept that a mere label is the reality?

Blogger Tom Kratman January 24, 2016 1:25 PM  

add "socialist" between "nearly as" and "as Great Britain."

Blogger Ahazuerus January 24, 2016 4:39 PM  

Oh dear, I would guess I am the sort of fucking idiot that knows what the word socialist actually means, Mr Kratman. Perhaps you could take another look at their list of demands and policies as described earlier in this thread, and ponder how many are - as Mr Wright pointed out - almost word for word copied from the communists?

I know very well the deceptive nature of self-applied political labels, sir.

I also know what words mean and I use them accordingly. The nazis were collectivists, socialising the costs of everything while concentrating the profits and power in few hands - a pattern seen in every socialist/communist experiment in recorded history.

In other words their actions in government were congruent with their demands before attaining to power.

I don't know or care what your problem is but simply claiming they were lying is not exactly a novel idea when it comes to governments. If you cannot elucidate the ways in which they were not socialist then you got nothing.

Your turn.

Blogger Ahazuerus January 24, 2016 4:42 PM  

As for Britain, so what? Germany and Britain were rivals (still are) but otherwise very culturally similar. Much English is derived from old High German and the Mountbattens were previously Battenbergs. The House of Windsor are krauts.

Again, what has the socialism of Britain got to do with the socialism of Germany?

You're not very good at this argument business, sir. But for bombast - well, full marks.

Blogger Tom Kratman January 24, 2016 9:05 PM  

Well, it's true, no one can argue an idiot out of his idiocies. On the other hand, who that's a party to this conversation has a degree in it, considerable practice at it, and no small degree of success in it?

It has to do with socialism as an objective matter, dummy. The name means nothing and only a fool - someone, say, like you - would think it does. If you want to believe that the self chosen name means anything, than grovel before His Imperial Majesty, me, if I choose the title for myself, because you're just that fucking gullible.

Now, did national socialist Germany nationalize private property generally? No. Did they centrally plan an economy very tightly? No. Collective farms? No. Adhere to anything Marx ever wrote or said? No. Try levelling the classes? No. Do _anything_ that is distinctively Socialistic beyond the false advertising? No.

So believe it if you want to, moron, but your idiot beliefs mean nothing.

Anonymous Toby Temple January 24, 2016 11:53 PM  

OT: Found an interesting interview with a certain Zygmunt Bauman:

http://elpais.com/elpais/2016/01/19/inenglish/1453208692_424660.html

Blogger Ahazuerus January 25, 2016 4:54 AM  

Ooops. Yes they actually did socialise their economy quite radically, as well as their culture. No, it wasn't Marxist socialism (as above, the Narxists and nazis were bitter rivals inside Germany and enemies after Operation Barabossa) but the economy was centrally directed toward the war effort and the culture was turned toward the vesting of all national (ie social) sentiment in one man and only that social sentiment which explicitly bowed to the Fuhrer as the embodiment of German unity and destiny was permitted.

You dont see nazism as a parallel development of socialism because you don't want to, and having made such a bombastic defense of your initial error you seek to avoid backing down by doubling down on the insults, yet you still have no argument.

Anonymous Discard January 25, 2016 6:40 AM  

45. Epimandes: How many homosexuals did the Nazis murder? You have no numbers, do you? That Nazi-genocide-of-homos is a total bullshit story. The Brownshirts were run by homosexuals, you dolt.

Blogger Tom Kratman January 25, 2016 4:38 PM  

No, it wasn't, not until 1943. If that was the earliest they became socialist, dipshit, then the "socialist" in the party name prior to that was meaningless, as I have been trying to drum into your neutronium-dense skull. Hence, too, my comparison with Churchillian Great Britain, which was far more socialist without the name, thus providing further evidence that the name means nothing.

It would help if you had an idea, even the faintest, tiniest, idea of what the fuck you were talking about.

Blogger Old Odd Jobs January 25, 2016 10:49 PM  

What an extraordinarily ill-tempered thread this has been. Let's just agree that the NSDAP were right-wing socialists, eh?

They were anti-Bolshevik. They were not Marxists. Yet they always considered themselves to be Socialists and based their National Socialism on the work of Marx. Hitler's aim, as he told his economic adviser, Otto Wagener, was to “convert the German Volk to socialism without simply killing off the old individualists”..."What Marxism, Leninism and Stalinism failed to accomplish, we shall be in a position to achieve.”

They hated Capitalism. They produced explicit anti-capitalist propaganda.

Beyond this kind of information, things seem to quickly descend into the usual "it wasn't REAL socialism/communism blah blah blah, REAL socialism is cool and not horrible blah blah blah" and everyone just stops reading.

Blogger Tom Kratman January 29, 2016 11:00 PM  

What they said they hated and how they actually acted were - this may come as a shock - not the same.

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