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Thursday, January 07, 2016

Standing by the faith

Wheaton College is showing some spine in insisting that its Christian professors actually be Christian in a theologically meaningful sense:
Wheaton College can confirm reports that on January 4, 2016, per College policies and procedures, Provost Stanton Jones delivered to President Philip Ryken and to Dr. Larycia Hawkins a Notice of Recommendation to Initiate Termination-for-Cause Proceedings regarding Dr. Hawkins.

The Notice is not a termination; rather, it begins Wheaton College’s established process for employment actions pertaining to tenured faculty members.

This Notice follows the impasse reached by the parties. Following Dr. Hawkins’ written response on December 17 to questions regarding her theological convictions, the College requested further theological discussion and clarification. However, as posted previously, Dr. Hawkins declined to participate in further dialogue about the theological implications of her public statements and her December 17 response.
This is the woman who claimed that Christians and Muslims worship the same God, which appears "to be in conflict with the College’s Statement of Faith."

And it is in conflict. Christians don't worship the same God as Muslims, which should be obvious since Christians consider Jesus Christ to be divine and part of the Godhead, whereas Muslims consider Jesus Christ to have been nothing more than a mortal prophet and a lesser one at that.

Any time you hear that Jews, Muslims, and Christians all worship the same God, you know that you're hearing little more than fatuous unitarianism.

Labels: ,

163 Comments:

Blogger Jack Aubrey January 07, 2016 12:19 PM  

Particularly brave seeing as she looks like an affirmative action hire.

Anonymous TLM January 07, 2016 12:23 PM  

That's surprising since they've been more known recently for blessing Churchianity with the likes of Rob Bell etc.

Anonymous Viidad January 07, 2016 12:36 PM  

Please let this be the beginning of mass purges. Please.

Blogger Salt January 07, 2016 12:39 PM  

Twitter's all a buzz.

Of course, there's the usual shrieking -

Blondes With Glasses ‏@BlondesForBlack 2h2 hours ago Chicago, IL

Blondes With Glasses Retweeted TIME.com
How terrible! War on women! #wheatoncollege

Blondes With Glasses added,
TIME.com @TIME
Wheaton professor under fire for views on Muslims says she’s ‘not intimidated’ http://ti.me/1Z83VXe




Anonymous Grime Knight January 07, 2016 12:40 PM  

Extremely frank conversation and communication took place in recent days toward that end...Dr. Hawkins has stated clearly her unwillingness to participate in such further clarifying conversations. This represents an impasse on our efforts toward reconciliation.

That and the university was trying to get a Q&A going with the students, and of course like a bloody SJW she refuses to participate. I hope this goes through and they drop her. Christ is King and He shares His seat at the right hand of the Father with no one.

Anonymous HongKongCharlie January 07, 2016 12:42 PM  

I don't believe God means the same to us as it does to Larycia. Linked article is a good read on differences in attitudes between white, black and hispanic interactions with public defenders. http://www.amren.com/features/2014/05/confessions-of-a-public-defender/

HKC

Blogger Nick S January 07, 2016 12:45 PM  

The ecumenical movement has been all about providing a vehicle for SJW entryism from the very beginning.

OpenID basementhomebrewer January 07, 2016 12:49 PM  

The SJW sphere is working itself into a frenzy. My favorite repeated statement so far is "I won't be going to Wheaton now" As if they ever intended to go there to begin with.

Anonymous WinstonWebb January 07, 2016 12:50 PM  

What's the over/under on how long Obama waits to get involved?

Blogger Didact January 07, 2016 12:53 PM  

@Vox- I do not dispute the fact that Muslims and Christians do not worship the same God. They simply don't. However, I'm curious about one thing with respect to your statement that "Christians consider Jesus Christ to be divine and part of the Godhead".

However, I seem to recall that you wrote in a post from a few years ago that you find the concept of the Trinity to be illogical. I would be most interested to read your thoughts are on the subject, since you are not a Catholic and therefore (presumably) do not subscribe to the Catechism which upholds the Trinity. Furthermore, are there not Christian denominations that refute the concept of the Trinity?

I hold no particularly strong opinions one way or another, as I am merely an agnostic reading slowly through the Bible, and ask this out of a desire to learn more about the Christian faith.

Anonymous ODG January 07, 2016 12:58 PM  

I had long since given up on Wheaton College. But this is good to see. Let's hope it's a sign of Christianity regaining its backbone.

Anonymous Siobhan January 07, 2016 1:01 PM  

I always figured the Jews worship God the Father, and while they're missing out on understanding Jesus, God would grandfather them in under the old covenant with the Jews out of his infinite mercy. Is that hopelessly naive and heretical?

Muslims took a separate path and I don't see them as worshipping the same God, Abrahamic faith or no. Is that prejudiced?

I'm glad we have Jesus. Much simpler! And so much love.

Anonymous karsten January 07, 2016 1:13 PM  

Whatever the specifics, the important aspect here is the precedent: conservative institutions exerting the will to remain conservative by weeding out Leftist entryists.

Would that this had happened at all universities starting a century ago.

Blogger VD January 07, 2016 1:15 PM  

I seem to recall that you wrote in a post from a few years ago that you find the concept of the Trinity to be illogical.

I do. Now, here is a hint. It's called CHRISTIANITY. Not Trinitarianism or Holyghostism.

Furthermore, I am not Data and I am aware of the limits of logic.

Blogger Didact January 07, 2016 1:15 PM  

@10,

while they're missing out on understanding Jesus, God would grandfather them in under the old covenant with the Jews out of his infinite mercy. Is that hopelessly naive and heretical?

I'm given to understand that Christians are directed to protect Jews as they were God's original chosen people, with a view toward guiding them back toward the truth of the Faith. That understanding is based upon the Encyclical issued by Pope Bl. Gregory X in 1272 and its predecessors.

Muslims took a separate path and I don't see them as worshipping the same God, Abrahamic faith or no. Is that prejudiced?

No. The Muslim understanding of their god is completely different from the Christian one. Allah was originally a pagan moon-god that was eventually co-opted into the Islamic Koran and was conflated with the Ebionite understanding of God. The details are rather long and technical but some of them can be found here.

Blogger Student in Blue January 07, 2016 1:17 PM  

I always figured the Jews worship God the Father, and while they're missing out on understanding Jesus, God would grandfather them in under the old covenant with the Jews out of his infinite mercy. Is that hopelessly naive and heretical?

Yes. The Jews who got grandfathered in were the ones before the Messiah had come, but with Jesus came the completion of the Old Testament, which the Jews were under. We are all not bound by the Old Testament any longer, but by the New Testament, which has been rejected by the Jews.

Anonymous FriarBob January 07, 2016 1:18 PM  

Most people seem to forget that Jesus said He came to REVEAL the Father. The implications are somewhat amusing to me, at least.

So yes, the Jews (observant ones, at least) really do worship the same God. They just don't realize that fact. Or do it properly. Or plenty of other problems. But they still do worship Him.

Blogger Student in Blue January 07, 2016 1:19 PM  

Furthermore, I am not Data and I am aware of the limits of logic.

I'll add in that just because something is illogical does not mean it is untrue, and I'm positive Vox knows this. Thus why he called it illogical, not false.

Blogger Raziel Walker January 07, 2016 1:20 PM  

I believe all abrahamic religions worship the same god. They just differ in interpretation of the Holy Book.
Muslims used to pray aimed towards Jerusalem for that reason until Mohammed changed it to Mecca. There was also a time when christians considered Islam a christian heretical sect.

Probably no surprise that I disagree with the Wheaton College Statement of Faith but if someone disagrees with that statement they shouldn't work at Wheaton instead of trying to force a change upon Wheaton.
The doctrinal statement.., reaffirmed annually by its .., faculty, and staff,

Anonymous HoosierHillbilly January 07, 2016 1:21 PM  

@11 It did happen at all Christian universities almost exactly a century ago. The winning side gave us the results of where we are now, which to our eyes looks like the norm. Take a glance at the Fundamentalist – Modernist Controversy. The pendulum hopefully is starting to swing back.

Blogger Didact January 07, 2016 1:25 PM  

I believe all abrahamic religions worship the same god.

Allah plainly is not the same God as the Lord. Islam posits that Allah is an extremely active, extremely capricious god who changes his mind and breaks covenants easily and regularly. Both Judaism and Christianity state unequivocally that the Lord's promises are eternal and unbreakable, even by the Lord Himself.

There was also a time when christians considered Islam a christian heretical sect.

That is because it IS a heretical sect. Hillaire Belloc said as much in The Great Heresies, and that was written within a century of the present day. And his work simply built upon the works of existing scholars such as St. Thomas Aquinas.

Blogger Thomas Davidsmeier January 07, 2016 1:28 PM  

Jesus is predicted to return as part of the Muslim Eschaton. Their version of him is a religious enforcer who "kills all pigs and breaks all crosses." I read a book that drew some interesting comparisons between the Muslim version of the end of the world and the Christian. It was like they were mirror images.

@2 Viidad

I can only hope. We live relatively close to Wheaton and had hoped it was a possibility for our kids. Didn't have much hope, and still have my doubts. They have swung toward the PC end of the spectrum for awhile. Way too much trying to meet the world's standards for a university instead of God's.

Example: They used to be the "Crusaders," but changed to the "Thunder." Not only a PC name but one of those stupid collective nouns for your team name.

Anonymous Faceless January 07, 2016 1:35 PM  

5:116 Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart . . ."

Maimonides was known to hold the position that he hated Christianity, liked Christians, liked Islam, hated Muslims.

Perhaps Islam is a Jewish heresy?

OpenID malcolmthecynic January 07, 2016 1:36 PM  

Dr. Feser disagrees.

There are some good arguments that the muslim God is different from the Christian God, but Jesus being part of the godhead is not one of them. Were that true, we would have to assume Jews don't worship the same God, which is absurd.

The better argument against Muslims worshiping the same God as the Christians is that the Islamic conception of God relies on extreme volunteerism. But whether or not this is enough to say that the Muslim God is *completely different* than the Christian God is debatable.

Anonymous Renny January 07, 2016 1:42 PM  

Being wrong about the Son doesn't mean they don't worship the Father.

Anonymous Faceless January 07, 2016 1:42 PM  

This is how the Southern Baptists took back their seminaries. Her desire to litigate is going to fail - refusal to uphold the statement of faith is a valid reason for terminating even 30 year tenured faculty.

Blogger Randy M January 07, 2016 1:48 PM  

People who say Muslims and Christians believe in the same God bother me in the same way that do the people who say "Dinosaurs were really birds." There may be similarities, there may even be causal connections, but making the claim elides fundamental differences.

Blogger Scott facehead January 07, 2016 1:52 PM  

I think what she's trying to say is muslims, jews, and Christians worship the same God The Father. My personal opinion is muslims think they're worshipping the same God The Father but I think they're worshiping the father or lies.

Blogger Student in Blue January 07, 2016 1:52 PM  

Being wrong about the Son doesn't mean they don't worship the Father.

They're also wrong about the Father.

Anonymous Albert January 07, 2016 1:54 PM  

God is Truth(among other attributes).

Allah is the master deceiver, whose followers practice taqiyya etc.

From a Christian standpoint, I believe it is reasonably obvious who Allah is.

Blogger Randy M January 07, 2016 1:55 PM  

"Being wrong about the Son doesn't mean they don't worship the Father."

It's more being wrong about the character and nature of God.
Put another way, is it even theoretically possible for two monotheists to believe in a different God? Both are trying to worship the only one God, does it matter if what they believe about His commands or character are diametrically opposed? Unless not, then I don't see how one says we and Muslims do.

Blogger wrf3 January 07, 2016 1:56 PM  

malcomthecynic @22: Dr. Feser disagrees.

For those who are interested, the discussion is here.

Asking the same kind of question in a different area should shed light on this one: "do those who hold to the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics do science with the same Nature as those who hold to the Copenhagen interpretation?"

If you answer "yes," then you'll agree with Dr. Feser. If you answer "no," then you'll agree with Vox.

Anonymous Faceless January 07, 2016 1:56 PM  

@Randy M

It insults our intelligence and assumes the most pedantic and personal reading of "the same".

"God begets not, nor is he begotten." (Qur'an, 112:3)

"16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life."

If one insists that "God" is the same person in those two, then one is demanding that one set of beliefs is entirely wrong.

"George W Bush is a small government conservative who believes in fiscal discipline and reducing the size of central government while devolving powers to the states and the people."

"George W Bush understands that, in times like these, we need a strong central government and the apparatus of the DHS to protect the homeland, and only a centralized, coordinated super-department can get the results required."

People who believe either of those are not speaking of the same George W Bush; one is false.

"I drive a Camry."
"I drive a 200."
"Four doors; six cylinders; FWD; oh my! We drive the same car!"

"I shop at the Wal-Mart at 34th and Pine."
"I shop at the Wal-Mart on Roosevelt."
"We should go together! We both shop at the same store!"

Blogger Chris Mallory January 07, 2016 2:02 PM  

@15
"So yes, the Jews (observant ones, at least) really do worship the same God."

No, they don't. Jesus made it very clear what is required to worship the Father.

John 14:6
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

Since Jews reject the Lord Jesus Christ and him crucified, they cannot worship the Father.

@23 " Being wrong about the Son doesn't mean they don't worship the Father."

Wrong, see the words of the Lord Jesus Christ above.

Anonymous VFM 9054 January 07, 2016 2:04 PM  

Dr. Feser argues for the proposition

While I don't know that I agree with the good Dr., he does make an interesting argument, and I am willing to acknowledge that most of my opposition is as a result of my own distaste of Mohammedans, and not a principled logical opposition.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan January 07, 2016 2:05 PM  

It seems obvious that the female is an attention whore, so call Roissy for advice on handling her

Blogger Eric Castle January 07, 2016 2:09 PM  

That such a thing would have been tolerated thus far tells a lot regarding even the "conservative" colleges. But different institutions have different purposes, supporters, and focuses. I avoided the more traditional colleges for this reason. My experience was at a "school of preaching" where having a woman professor would be inappropriate.

Anonymous Renny January 07, 2016 2:10 PM  

Randy "It's more being wrong about the character and nature of God. "

I think it's just semantics, but would you agree North Koreans worship the Kim family even though they are wrong about their fundamental nature

Blogger Ingot9455 January 07, 2016 2:13 PM  

"I take to me the services which thou hast done to Tash. For I and he are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him." --Aslan, C.S. Lewis, The Last Battle

Interestingly, the ape Shift claims that Aslan and Tash are one and the same, and rigs up a fake 'Tashlan' that they hide in the tent.

When a reader here mentioned that some entryists came to their church and started preaching about 'Chrislam' I could not but laugh.

Anonymous Victor F. Michaelson January 07, 2016 2:16 PM  

Were that true, we would have to assume Jews don't worship the same God, which is absurd.
@22, Malcolm, Do you not see the parallels between the Pharisees and the Jews? The warning that one can be very religious and be as empty as a tomb applies as much today as when the warning was first spoken.

Anonymous Victor F. Michaelson January 07, 2016 2:20 PM  

If you reject the silly proposition that Catholicism is like a healthy dog, Dr. Feser's whole line of failed comparisons falls apart.

Blogger Jeffrey Quick January 07, 2016 2:28 PM  

Logic issue: Jews ALSO do not worship a God with a Son, so is that also a different God? We say that the Jew are mistaken about the nature of YHVH, but cannot the Moslems also be mistaken and still worship the same god? There'd be a limit as to how far one could be mistaken, and I think that I-slammers are way past that limit.

That said, I'm glad that Wheaton is treating faculty like students. I had a friend who was thrown out of there for being a member of the Way International...which doesn't not believe in the Holy Trinity.Expelled for heresy: quite a piquant notion in the 1970s.

Blogger James Dixon January 07, 2016 2:29 PM  

Of course she could simply channel her inner apsie (I'm sure the aspie is strong with this one) and say "But there can only be one creator God, and they both claim to worship him. Of course they worship the same God. It's their understanding of that God that's different." And all would be well with her statement. But that's not actually what she believes, and she's determined to become a martyr for her true religion.

Blogger S1AL January 07, 2016 2:42 PM  

Allah of Islam is not Yahweh. The self-expressed nature of Yahweh (unchanging, incapable of lying, etc) are in direct contradiction to the absolute immutability of Allah.

Regarding the Jews: the Abrahamic Covenant was not abrogated by the New Covenant, and yet Paul talks about the Jews who have rejected Christ as being condemned. Perhaps those who truly hold to the Law, in all its fullness, will be redeemed. God is, after all, merciful.

Blogger Ragin' Dave January 07, 2016 2:43 PM  

My niece goes to Wheaton, and we discussed this professor over the holidays. However negatively you may view this "teacher's" behavior, let me assure you that the reality is far worse. And of course, this woman played the "RACISS!" card the moment anyone said anything to her. The university will be much better off once they dump her.

Anonymous Crude January 07, 2016 2:46 PM  

Agreeing with Feser re: God does not mean one has to regard 'Chrislam' as anything other than a complete joke that has no place in a Christian university.

'They worship the same God, in this particular sense' does not mean or even imply, 'These two religions are the same or largely the same'.

Blogger professorastro January 07, 2016 2:47 PM  

The Jews are enemies of God only with regard to the Good News, and enemies only for your sake; but as the chosen people, they are still loved by God, loved for the sake of their ancestors. God never takes back his gifts or revokes his choice. [Romans 11:28-29]

Also, didn't St. Augustine say the Jews should be protected because they held the knowledge of the OT?

Blogger Anchorman January 07, 2016 2:51 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Anonymous KoranBurningFaggot January 07, 2016 2:52 PM  

My favorite repeated statement so far is "I won't be going to Wheaton now" As if they ever intended to go there

Have no fear my ex little gay Steve has offered to take over the queer theory classes down by the railroad tracks.

Blondes With Glasses ‏@BlondesForBlack 2h2 hours ago Chicago, IL

Can someone please tell her evolution doesn't stop at the neck.

TIME.com @TIME Wheaton professor under fire for views on Muslims says she’s ‘not intimidated’

She is so scared that she wont even answer questions with Taqiyya & Kitman.

"Christians consider Jesus Christ to be divine and part of the Godhead".

That would make Allah & Moohammad part of the GodA-hole

Were that true, we would have to assume Jews don't worship the same God, which is absurd.

What about the jews that say they don't have to believe as long as they obey the rules, then get their rules from the bacon eating GRINDR Rabbi?

Blogger Student in Blue January 07, 2016 2:53 PM  

@S1AL
Perhaps those who truly hold to the Law, in all its fullness, will be redeemed.

The problem with that is that all have sinned, else a Messiah would not be necessary. It is impossible to truly hold to the Law in all its fullness; truly only one has held and fulfilled the Law and that was Christ.

Blogger Anchorman January 07, 2016 2:57 PM  

“Islam worships the same god and the Judeo-Christian God” brings to mind Satanic cults. They will claim “Satan” is really X, or Y, or Z – at the root claiming Judeo-Christians misrepresent the enemy.

Really, though, a person either worships the enemy (the great deceiver, the liar) and worships an entity known to seek destruction of man or they invent a new god and slap the name, “Satan” on it and give it new attributes.

Point is, you either worship God of the Old and New Testament without edits or new and improved theology, or you worship another god and slap His name on it.

Islam’s theology necessarily rejects Christ’s (God’s) Plan by adding to what was revealed and final (salvation). It’s a horrendous heresy and there’s no way a muslim can claim they worship the same god without saying, “The God of the Old and New Testament is all wrong and we got it right.”

Blogger jay c January 07, 2016 2:57 PM  

The Muslims have done something very similar to what the Hebrews did at Sinai. They took a pagan god and called it God. "Look, Israel! Here is Y--H who brought you out of Egypt." (Why they went along with what seems an obvious falsehood in retrospect is interesting, but tangential.) Now the Muslims say "Look, world! Here is the God of Abraham who actually chose Ishmael instead of Isaac." The golden calf wasn't Elohim and neither is Allah.

Blogger Student in Blue January 07, 2016 3:02 PM  

Also, didn't St. Augustine say the Jews should be protected because they held the knowledge of the OT?

Which means nothing in regards to whether or not they're sanctified towards God.

Anonymous My Take January 07, 2016 3:07 PM  

In the gospel written by John, The very first verse states: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” Later in the first epistle of John, we read (CH5:7,8) “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one” There is no doubt in my mind that the Trinity is very real. Others may believe differently.

Blogger Steve Clayworth January 07, 2016 3:08 PM  


“Theology is never any help; it is searching in a dark cellar at midnight for a black cat that isn't there. Theologians can persuade themselves of anything.”

― Robert A. Heinlein

Blogger Billy January 07, 2016 3:10 PM  

ST. John of Chrysostom- The Jews or bent on destroying my sheep. So I must spar with them and fight with them." Doesn't sound like St. John had the view that they should be protected by christians. Perhaps treated fairly and converted.

Blogger Billy January 07, 2016 3:15 PM  

" A religion that doesn't interfere with the secular order will soon discover that the secular order will not refrain from interfering with it." Archbishop Fulton J Sheen

Blogger Anchorman January 07, 2016 3:16 PM  

Perhaps treated fairly and converted.

Perfected.

Blogger Snidely January 07, 2016 3:19 PM  

@52 Steve Clayworth
“Theology is never any help; it is searching in a dark cellar at midnight for a black cat that isn't there. Theologians can persuade themselves of anything.”
― Robert A. Heinlein


Since when did RAH have anything useful to say about God, or religion? That's like citing Mother Theresa in a discussion of materials science.

Blogger Lovekraft January 07, 2016 3:19 PM  

Fifth columnist infiltrating western organizations, backed with foreign shady money with the intent to wear them down and dilute their resolve.

Anonymous KoranBurningFaggot January 07, 2016 3:27 PM  

Lets fingerprint this moslem "woman" http://www.glennbeck.com/2016/01/06/louisiana-pastor-fingerprinted-for-being-too-loud

With apologies to Tolkien: “One Bank To Rule Them All • One Surveillance State To Find Them • One World Order To Disarm Them All • And In The Darkness Bind Them…” – How Iceland Escaped From The One Bank http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-01-05/how-iceland-escaped-one-bank

Anonymous rienzi January 07, 2016 3:32 PM  

@16 Student in Blue:I'll add in that just because something is illogical does not mean it is untrue, and I'm positive Vox knows this. Thus why he called it illogical, not false.


It has been a very long time since I took logic at university, so I may be way off base here, but my understanding is that something which is logical may, or may not be false. However something that is illogical must be false.

Blogger White Knight Leo #0368 January 07, 2016 3:34 PM  

Someone on Twitter claimed that German men were now forming vigilante groups to protect their women from migrant assaults.

I think the correct term would be "militias", actually, unless they are planning on going and hunting down the migrants who participate in attacks. That said, anyone heard anything about this?

Blogger White Knight Leo #0368 January 07, 2016 3:36 PM  

@59

In the case of arguments, I think so as well. But a claim that a particular action was taken or would be taken by a human being even though it is illogical could still be true.

Blogger Desiderius January 07, 2016 3:38 PM  

“Theology is never any help; it is searching in a dark cellar at midnight for a black cat that isn't there. Theologians can persuade themselves of anything.”
― Robert A. Heinlein

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSlyffELHY8

Blogger Randy M January 07, 2016 3:39 PM  

Renny: Do they do as he commands? Then sure. Do Muslims do as the one true God commands? Probably some. Not the normative Muslim, though.

Blogger Student in Blue January 07, 2016 3:40 PM  

It has been a very long time since I took logic at university, so I may be way off base here, but my understanding is that something which is logical may, or may not be false. However something that is illogical must be false.

When we were children, adults made no sense to us even though most of us desired very much to be an adult already. Adults were, to us, illogical and incomprehensible, doing things for reasons we could not fathom.

So it is from parent to child, that the greater is seemingly illogical to the lesser, so it is from one of great genius to a normal mind, then so too must it be from God the Omnipotent to us.

Blogger Desiderius January 07, 2016 3:41 PM  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Egs4CZjOAmk

Blogger Rabbi B January 07, 2016 3:44 PM  

“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me."

Y'shua testified that they believed in G-d, and here (and a number of other places)only asked that they would also believe in Him, Who was sent by G-d. He also speaks plainly declaring: If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father.

In another place: "You do not know me or my Father,” Y'shua replied. “If you knew me, you would know my Father also.”

For someone (anyone) to know G-d, while at the same time rejecting Y'shua the Messiah, undermines his profession that he knows G-d. The hard truth, is that any person who rejects and does not know Y'shua, does not know G-d either.

Abraham saw Y'shua's day . . . and rejoiced. In fact, the very day that Abraham beheld, was the day G-d raised Y'shua from the dead, which is demonstrable from the Torah which Moses penned. Abraham is not the only Jew who rejoiced in this regard.

Many of the Jews also don't believe Moses, let alone G-d:

“But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?” (cf. John 5)

Alas,

“‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’” (cf. Luke 16)

May the veil be lifted from the eyes of my brethren that they may behold wondrous things in His Law . . . namely, the Living Torah, Y'shua HaMashiach.

Anonymous Jim Mortensen January 07, 2016 3:54 PM  

I thought it was clear that Christians and Muslims worship the same God...he's called Tashlan.

I don't know why people are puzzled by this (and I hope this comment has you in stitches)

Anonymous bw January 07, 2016 3:56 PM  

Being wrong about the Son doesn't mean they don't worship the Father.

Since Jews reject the Lord Jesus Christ and him crucified, they cannot worship the Father

This. Had you known Moses, you would know Me.

Theology is never any help - Heinlein

And Bob is less than no help in things he didn't understand or know about.

Blogger Ingot9455 January 07, 2016 4:00 PM  

@59 When you discover that an illogical statement is in fact true, one of the things it can mean is that one or more of your axioms are wrong. Then you must re-examine them.

Anonymous Ain January 07, 2016 4:09 PM  

I was sitting in at a church youth group once when the leader made the claim that Muslims and Christians worship the same God. It's a very common misconception, one that even otherwise reasonably intelligent Christians tend to make. I believe they accept it as dogma and have never really given it any thought, before.

Allah is Baal.

Blogger Neanderserk January 07, 2016 4:19 PM  

I used to be a typical evangelical Christian zionist, with Ashkenazi blood no less. Then my eyes were opened, and I learned that though the Jews may not be the sons of Jacob, they are surely the synagogue of Satan.

One can cherrypick anything from the densely paradoxical Paul, but the very chapter some fellow quoted to support Judaeophilism contains its contradiction: Paul compares Jewish rejectors of Christ to those who knelt at the altar of Baal.

They are cut off, and we are grafted in. Jew != Israelite. Jew = Pharasee, but a 1,000 times worse, thanks to 2,000 years of unbroken wickedness.

Blogger Randy M January 07, 2016 4:23 PM  

Who can count the number of times in the OT the prophets said "The important thing is that you follow one God. Not none, not two or more. But, it really doesn't matter which one."

Anonymous Hezekiah Garrett January 07, 2016 4:33 PM  

@didact

Ilk recognise the abundant patience and intelligence of the Dark Lord, and take him at his word. SJWs insist he is a shrieking child of diminished mental capacity.

Either way, he's Vox Day. When SJWs misapprehend him, their gross conceptual errors are still about HIM.

It isn't some other DarkLord they're lying about. It's this one, the only one.

So it is, I think, with the 3 faiths. Just because Muslims totally misapprehend the God of Abraham doesn't mean it isn't the God of Abraham their describing. They're just wrong.

Anonymous Headcannon January 07, 2016 4:41 PM  

@52 "“Theology is never any help; it is searching in a dark cellar at midnight for a black cat that isn't there. Theologians can persuade themselves of anything.”
― Robert A. Heinlein

What an amazing insight into thousands of years of study. What are his views on sexual ethics? Surely they must be as highly evolved as this?

Blogger SirHamster January 07, 2016 4:43 PM  

Perhaps those who truly hold to the Law, in all its fullness, will be redeemed. God is, after all, merciful.

The only thing I would add to that speculation is that they will still only see salvation through Christ. Maybe God gives them a special last chance offer to bend the knee to Jesus; He can be as generous as He wishes.

"Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?"

Blogger Randy M January 07, 2016 4:43 PM  

Who can doubt, though, that when this lady says we worship the same God, she believes that each group does so with equal validity? Whether Christians and Muslims are talking about the same concept differently, or different concepts, the heresey in question really is to imply that we both hold equally valid claims on the being the servants of God.

Anonymous Garrulus January 07, 2016 4:45 PM  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_14ZIcUQBIw Köln Rapefugees im Einsatz

Blogger VD January 07, 2016 4:59 PM  

something that is illogical must be false.

No. As Ingot pointed out, it may be false. Or an axiom upon which the syllogism is correctly built is incorrect.

Blogger Billy January 07, 2016 4:59 PM  

No Randy, that is not what she is saying. Furthermore if she claims Christianity, she should know we believe in one true God and others claim to it are invalid. Now if she was a random person making these statements so be it, but she's not.

Blogger Neanderserk January 07, 2016 5:01 PM  

"It's this one, the only one.

So it is, I think, with the 3 faiths. Just because Muslims totally misapprehend the God of Abraham doesn't mean it isn't the God of Abraham their describing. They're just wrong."

I can think of no Biblical support for this position. Rather, the opposite: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." Indicating gods are more numerous than nations, and different.

In fact, you are directly contradicting Jesus in John 8, who said of the Pharisees (the Jews): "You are of your father the devil."

Hence my next question: "Who's your daddy?"

Blogger Rabbi B January 07, 2016 5:03 PM  

Perhaps those who truly hold to the Law, in all its fullness, will be redeemed. God is, after all, merciful.

I would shudder at the thought of this being the case. If it were, then the Messiah died in vain.

"I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, the Messiah died for nothing!” (cf. Galatians 2)

The Law, or obedience to law, was never intended for redemptive purposes. Only G-d can declare a man righteous. The law was given to a people who had already been redeemed. (The nation of Israel formally received the Torah after crossing the Red Sea, not before. Therefore, it is clear that the Law is a prescription for living life as a redeemed person and was never intended to redeem anyone.

Obedience to the law is not, and never has been a prescription for being declared righteous before G-d, neither for the Jew or the non-Jew. Neither Y'shua or Paul ever take issue with the Law, but they do take issue with the misuse and misapplication of the Law concerning purposes for which it was never intended i.e. justification before G-d based upon obedience to it.

Paul declares in Timothy that the Law is good if one uses it properly. He also asserts in Romans that the Law is spiritual, but it is we who are unspiritual. The Law does not transform anyone, nor was it intended to do so. Only when G-d transforms a man and gives him a heart of flesh is the Law of any real value to him for sanctification, which simply means being set apart for His purposes. (cf. Ezekiel 36:26-27).

Blogger Student in Blue January 07, 2016 5:05 PM  

@73. Hezekiah Garrett
It isn't some other DarkLord they're lying about. It's this one, the only one.

A more accurate use of your metaphor is to liken the SJWs to Satan, who knows full well who God is and works against him -- he is an outright enemy. SJWs certainly don't claim that their author who claims to be Vox is the true Vox, they simply hurl mud at the Vox that exists and shriek and lie about him.

Whereas Jews would be someone who was convinced that the true author was only the guy who had written The War in Heaven, and that Vox guy who did other stuff was an impostor.

Islam is if someone wrote a bunch of fanfiction about The Throne of Bones contradicting a ton of stuff that happened beforehand and claimed he was really Vox, the author of Throne of Bones, and just ignore everything else he might have said beforehand. Oh, and this new author claims to really have been black all along, or his band that charted was really bluegrass, or something that directly contradicted earlier attributes of Vox.

Anonymous Bukulu January 07, 2016 5:13 PM  

I think it's just as valid to argue, following Paul in I Cor. 8, that there is only one God, and that to the extent that people are talking about a universal Creator, and not merely local "dieties" or ancestor spirits or something like that, they're really talking about The Only God There Is. However, those who aren't Christians are mistaken about Who God is and what He is like.

Following this path, then, "God" and "Gott" and "Dieu" and "Allah" are just words, in different languages, that refer to The One God. Indeed, some while back there was a bit of a flap over the word "Allah" being used in some translations of the NT into Arabic. But there isn't another word in Arabic to use!

None of this lets Dr. Hawkins off the hook, mind you, as the whole point of a statement of faith is to have a concensus about the "Who He Is And What He Is Like" part of the equation, and her "same God" statement goes against Paul's pragmatic follow-on, "But not everyone knows that."

Anonymous DissidentRight January 07, 2016 5:20 PM  

Jesus: "I AM". To reject Christ is to reject the Father and the Spirit.

Blogger Mark Citadel January 07, 2016 5:29 PM  

I think every Christian rejoices at any resistance at this point, but how long will they hold out? I can see some ridiculous instance where this goes to the Supreme Court clowns and the college is shut down for 'racism' or something similar.

And how can the Christian concept of God be in any way identical to the Islamic conception? Our is Trinitarian, theirs is Monotarian. Thats a pretty big difference, and has all kinds of implications with regards to the function of the Holy Spirit in particular.

Anonymous dt January 07, 2016 5:30 PM  

Therefore, it is clear that the Law is a prescription for living life as a redeemed person and was never intended to redeem anyone.

So Paul's letter to the Galatians was just one long bs strawman argument then?

Anonymous Ahmad ibn Fadhlan January 07, 2016 5:33 PM  

Well, looks like they aren't the only ones standing by their faith these days:

https://pjmedia.com/faith/2016/1/7/over-500-pastors-will-run-for-office-in-2016

In more or less open and intended revolt against totalitarian secularism. Start adding up the campaign volunteers, etc. and the math gets interesting. True even if many of them are Churchians rather than Christians. What matters is the revolt.

Blogger Randy M January 07, 2016 5:34 PM  

Billy, I hope for the sake of her soul you are right, but I have seen that kind of talk from self-professed Christians.

Blogger Unknown January 07, 2016 5:41 PM  

@73 The god of the mohammadens is not our God. The koran is very clear on that, as Vox said (see sura 3). We are told that any spirit which doesn't acknowledge Jesus as Lord is of the devil. Allah is a spirit which doesn't acknowledge Jesus as Lord, nor even as an equal, and therefore allah is of the devil. So, somehow that makes allah the same as God?

As for whether Jews and Christians worship the same God, Jesus seemed to think so. He also said that He is the only way to the Father, so Jews who try to reject their Messiah and worship their God will not get a good reception.

Anonymous Dave Gerrold's Cabana Boy January 07, 2016 6:15 PM  

"something that is illogical must be false"

Indeed, I have often used the Trinity as a soft apologetic point in favor of the veracity of Christianity. It would be logical to expect humans inventing a deity to construct an anthropomorphosized being e.g.: the Greek pantheon of "super humans", or even the Hindu pantheon of unitary beings.

The concept of a triune being that the best we can shorthand as "three Who's, one What" is sufficiently alien and incomprehensible to argue somewhat successfully that it isn't mere invention.

Anonymous Who Died and Made You G_d? January 07, 2016 6:19 PM  

"Ye shall know them by their fruits."

Christians, Muslims and Jews may all be "Monotheistic" but they certainly don't worship the "SAME" God.

God the Father as described by Jesus the Son in the New Testament is nothing like the Allah of the Qur'an, nor the YHVH of the Torah and the Talmud...not to mention the paganism of the Kabbalah.

Tenets of the Christian God = Love, Forgiveness, Repentance, Atonement

Muslim God = Conquest, Peace through Submission

Torah & Talmud = Anger, Hatred, Revenge, Racial Supremacy (The Chosen!) and Genocide.

Ye shall know them by their fruits.

OpenID malcolmthecynic January 07, 2016 6:22 PM  

Dr. Feser's idea is, as he pointed out, about philosophy of language, really. It's about the question of whether or not what the Muslims refer to as "God" can reasonably either be said to be the same thing but with incorrect attributes attributed to it by Muslims, or a different thing entirely.

I reject the idea that if you reject Jesus as God, you do not have a recognizable concept of God at all. This would mean every single person before the birth of Christ was talking about a completely different thing when they referred to God. This seems manifestly silly; it would make any pre-Christian talk about God actually not be about God.

Anonymous Trimegistus January 07, 2016 6:28 PM  

I believe the proper German word is "Freikorps."

Congratulations, Mrs. Merkel: you've single-handedly managed to reverse sixty years of German history.

Anonymous The Kulak January 07, 2016 6:37 PM  

To Russians, Serbs, Armenians, and all others on the Julian calendar: Christ is born!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfwBN7VH1uk&index=26&list=RDqeBl5fuI_sA

Blogger Feather Blade January 07, 2016 6:46 PM  

@21 Perhaps Islam is a Jewish heresy?

A little of both, I think.

In the PBS hagiography of Mohammed that we were forced to watch in our Architectural History class (yes, WTF is the appropriate response), Mohammed was described as having discussed philosophy and theology with Christians and Jews that traveled through Medina. So, he probably cherry picked whatever aspects of each that he liked, combined them with the traditions of the desert tribe of which he was a member, and stirred in a generous helping of the demonic-or-drug-induced visions that he saw when he was out playing spirit-medium in the hills.

Blogger Phillip George January 07, 2016 6:57 PM  

allah told gabriel told muhammad presumably Jesus didn't die on the cross or rise from the dead. Hence allah and or gabriel and or muhammad are liars.

allah hu akbar equates to allah is the "greatest" and among other attributes "greatest liar/ schemer/ deceiver"

Aside from Muhammad being a rapist murderer duplicitous opportunistic killer and pedophile he was probably someone you wouldn't want to take theological lessons from.

if you go with 'cultural relativism' you are war mongering whore.

Jesus Christ is LORD = YHWH and lord, is in the syntax of the greek, hebrew, english, aramaic.

Blogger Desiderius January 07, 2016 6:58 PM  

"I reject the idea that if you reject Jesus as God, you do not have a recognizable concept of God at all. This would mean every single person before the birth of Christ was talking about a completely different thing when they referred to God. This seems manifestly silly; it would make any pre-Christian talk about God actually not be about God."

Pre-Christ and post-Christ (including the concept of Allah without confessing Christ) are apples and oranges from the human perspective. Those who knew God before the time of Christ (such as Abraham) knew God as well as He could be known by man at that time. Muslims today who deny Christ do not.

Blogger Billy January 07, 2016 6:59 PM  

"I reject the idea that if you reject Jesus as God, you do not have a recognizable concept of God at all. This would mean every single person before the birth of Christ was talking about a completely different thing when they referred to God. This seems manifestly silly; it would make any pre-Christian talk about God actually not be about God."
That which is known as the Christian religion existed among the ancients, and never did not exist; from the beginning of the human race until the time when Christ came in the flesh, at which time the true religion, which already existed began to be called Christianity. --St. Augustine

Blogger Desiderius January 07, 2016 7:08 PM  

"the same thing but with incorrect attributes attributed to it by Muslims"

Christlikeness is the essence of God, not a mere attribute.

Review the ὁμοούσιος debate.

Blogger Desiderius January 07, 2016 7:14 PM  

The law is the "you must be this tall (morally) to enter the ride" sign. It is a beginning to a life of redemption, but not the End.

Blogger tz January 07, 2016 7:21 PM  

I'm not so bothered by the claim that Christians and others (monotheistic) worship the same God as I am by Christians who seem to wish to imitate the Aztecs by slaughtering one of every four babies in clinics both as charity and as a sacrifice.

Blogger Nick S January 07, 2016 7:23 PM  

It is impossible for God to lie (Hebrews 6:17-18) Allah suffers no such constraints. In fact, the Quran says that "Allah is the best of deceivers" (S. 3:54). If you take the source material for each as explicitly authoritative, definitive, and inerrant they are not the same God/god.

Anonymous JRL January 07, 2016 7:43 PM  

Wheaton's gotta lay down the law every now and then. Profs like this will keep pushing until the line is so blurry it doesn't exist.

Blogger Student in Blue January 07, 2016 8:16 PM  

@91
Tenets of the Christian God = Love, Forgiveness, Repentance, Atonement

That's Churchianity understanding.

No, the tenets of God is Truth, Justice, and Love. Forgiveness flows from Love, while Repentance and Atonement flows from Justice. Truth, which God is, fullstop, isn't even mentioned in your list.

Blogger GJ January 07, 2016 8:16 PM  

malcolmthecynic:

You are wrong. That argument depends on viewing God primarily as an aggregate of abstract qualities/attributes (eg. omnipotent, omniscient, Prime Mover, etc), which is a particularly Hellenistic-philosophical approach.

However, the Jews viewed God primarily through his actions: He was the Creator, He made the covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, He delivered them from Egypt, He gave them the Law at Sinai and made a Covenant with them, He Dwelt in their midst in the Tabernacle, He brought them to the promised land, and so on.

So before God revealed himself through Jesus there is nothing wrong with not possessing a belief in the future event because the first level of knowledge about God is about what He has acted [with regards to His covenant people] and that act hasn't happened yet. After Jesus appeared it's a different story.

And to forestall certain objections, denying Jesus is not like denying any other act with the covenant people because through Jesus God was truly revealed, and through whom God enacted The great exodus, and mediated the second and eternal covenant.

Blogger Student in Blue January 07, 2016 8:17 PM  

And if I may add, Truth Justice and Love comprise the Old Testament as well.

Blogger wrf3 January 07, 2016 8:25 PM  

Nick S @102: Read 1 Kings 22:20-23:

20 And the LORD said, ‘Who will entice Ahab, so that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ Then one said one thing, and another said another,
21 until a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, saying, ‘I will entice him.’
22* ‘How?’ the LORD asked him. He replied, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ Then the LORD said, ‘You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do it.’
23* So you see, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the LORD has decreed disaster for you.”

Blogger S1AL January 07, 2016 8:33 PM  

@107 - You misunderstand. God cannot lie because, if he says it is, IT IS.

Anonymous Paradox January 07, 2016 8:36 PM  

"For to us Trinitarians (if I may say it with reverence)--to us God Himself is a society. It is indeed a fathomless mystery of theology, and even if I were theologian enough to deal with it directly, it would not be relevant to do so here. Suffice it to say here that this triple enigma is as comforting as wine and open as an English fireside; that this thing that bewilders the intellect utterly quiets the heart: but out of the desert, from the dry places and the dreadful suns, come the cruel children of the lonely God; the real Unitarians who with scimitar in hand have laid waste the world. For it is not well for God to be alone." --- G K Chesterton


The Trinity has been with Christianity from the beginning. St. Irenaeus talked about it 110 years after the Gospels were written, and he was instructed by St. Luke.

It's the Unitarians who have the twisted view of God and are destructive. True Christianity has always had to fight the Unitarian heresy. Even the Christian South fought a religious war against the Yankee Unitarians.

Anonymous Reader January 07, 2016 8:40 PM  

I may have a different perspective. Vox , can delete my comments, if he only wants a Christian perspectives on his post.

As a background, I am a sort of a seeker. I have followed a few different paths including Christianity but on this post I will invoke the Rig Veda : God is one, though the wise refer to God in various ways.

In the ancient Vedic text, God is called by many names which are based on his nature and attributes. For example, God is called,
Achyuta = infallible Lord
Adidev = Lord of the Lords
Akshara = indestructible Lord
Anaadih = One who is the first cause
Aniruddha = one who can not be obstructed
Bali = the Lord of strength
Govinda = One Who Pleases The Cows, The Land And The Entire Nature
Hari = the Lord of nature
Hiranyagarbha = The All Powerful Creator
Jagadish = the protector of all
Jayantah = the conqueror of all enemies
Janardhana = One Who Bestows Boons On One And All
Krishna = blue-black skinned all attractive God
Madan Mohan = the all attractive, the Lord of love
Manohar = beautiful Lord
Narayan = the refuge of everyone
Punyah = supremely pure
Shyamsundara = Lord of the beautiful evening
Vishnu = all prevailling Lord
Nirguna = transcendental to material qualities
Uruśravā. = His activities are glorius

And of course, Allah is the name used by muslims (though, I don’t know what it means).

In some Hindu traditions, Jesus Christ is considered Shaktyavesh Avatar. It’s explained in this way: Whenever the Lord is present in someone by portions of His various potencies, the living entity representing the Lord is called a śaktyāveśa-avatāra — that is, an incarnation invested with special power.

One Hindu tradition that believes in a personal God, opines that there is no other dharma, duty, other than love of God. All other dharmas that are or ever will be propagated in the world are either steps on the staircase of prema, pure love. Or else distortions of it.

Anonymous Reader January 07, 2016 8:44 PM  

Regarding the topic, I believe that Wheaton college has the moral right to remove a non-Christian faculty because Christianity has its own traditions, systems of teachings, and values.

Anonymous Frank Luke January 07, 2016 8:46 PM  

@66 RabbiB,

Do you have a fuller writeup on this question? It's a question I've been trying to work through and want to analyze fully.

Blogger wrf3 January 07, 2016 8:51 PM  

S1AL @108:

You missed the point. One can always tell the truth and yet deceive someone, as the passage in 1 Kings shows. See also 2 Thessalonians 2:11.

Anonymous bw January 07, 2016 9:22 PM  

You misunderstand. God cannot lie because, if he says it is, IT IS.

Until He changes His mind, correct? Then, IT ISN'T.

Blogger wrf3 January 07, 2016 9:43 PM  

It is also instructive to ask, "what God do atheists not believe in?" If it's the Christian God they reject, then why is their wrong knowledge of God somehow different from the Islamists wrong view of God? And if it isn't the Christian God they reject, which one are they rejecting? Is it the somewhat bizarre case that they actually don't believe in a false god?

Blogger Phillip George January 07, 2016 10:09 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

OpenID malcolmthecynic January 07, 2016 10:14 PM  

@105

So before God revealed himself through Jesus there is nothing wrong with not possessing a belief in the future event because the first level of knowledge about God is about what He has acted [with regards to His covenant people] and that act hasn't happened yet. After Jesus appeared it's a different story.

Not really. Either you're referring to an incomplete understanding of God, but nevertheless an understanding of God, or you aren't.

That the Muslims have no, or at least severely less, excuse to have this incomplete understanding isn't relevant to the specific question.

Anonymous Toby Temple January 07, 2016 10:17 PM  

Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness

That is OBVIOUSLY more than 1 creator there.

OpenID malcolmthecynic January 07, 2016 10:18 PM  

That which is known as the Christian religion existed among the ancients, and never did not exist; from the beginning of the human race until the time when Christ came in the flesh, at which time the true religion, which already existed began to be called Christianity. --St. Augustine

This is not a proper response to what I wrote.

Blogger Phillip George January 07, 2016 10:19 PM  

You know them by their specific, very specific acts, what they have and haven't done.

Any Torah and every alcoran are mutually exclusive. Someone is lying.

You cannot reconcile two different gods, or the real God with a fake/ fraud/ murderer

OpenID malcolmthecynic January 07, 2016 10:21 PM  

Christlikeness is the essence of God, not a mere attribute.

Then Jews do not worship God.

Christ is of course not a "mere attribute". He IS God. But just because people don't realize that doesn't mean they don't recognize God at all.

Blogger Phillip George January 07, 2016 10:21 PM  

No toby

That is OBVIOUSLY more than 1 creator there.

the queen can rightly say, We are not amused. She is referring to x-number of people who constitute her very individual being.

OpenID malcolmthecynic January 07, 2016 10:26 PM  

@102

That is a much better argument. The question is whether a voluntaristic God is recognizably the God of classical theists, that is, historical Christianity.

The answer might be no. I'm undecided.

Blogger Phillip George January 07, 2016 10:35 PM  

the Jewish mono theism is routinely misrepresented.

One, and Oneness can have "plurality in being". Elohym is a plural masculine noun but can be used with singular and plural forms of verb.

Metatron - there has always been a sense in which the Angel of the LORD is the LORD. Jacob fought with the Angel of the LORD, meaning, fought with God. King David could say the LORD said to my Lord.

Jewish mono theism isn't the islamic verion [not someone you'd dine with].

Blogger Dire Badger January 07, 2016 10:39 PM  

“Not to oppose error is to approve it; and not to defend truth is to suppress it; and indeed to neglect to confound evil men, when we can do it, is no less a sin than to encourage them.”
-pope st felix III

Blogger Matt January 07, 2016 10:51 PM  

It's strange to me that Muslims refuse to acknowledge Jesus as God, when in the Koran, Jesus is recorded as performing miracles and being born of the Virgin Mary. Islam is an insane cult for the insane desert dwelling goat-lovers.

Blogger Nick S January 07, 2016 10:52 PM  

Nick S @102: Read 1 Kings 22:20-23:

I have and you misunderstand it. Like Jesus telling Judas to go and do what he already knows he's going to do isn't a command, God allowing a deception is not the same thing as initiating a deception, but it goes even deeper than that and I'm not going to hijack this thread in order to school you on it.

Anonymous Garrulus January 07, 2016 11:05 PM  

Mea Culpa, the video I posted earlier is of another rapecase of a dutch woman on tahrir square and not Koln
http://www.barenakedislam.com/2012/01/29/egypt-muslim-savages-strip-and-sexually-assault-dutch-woman-in-tahrir-square/

Blogger Moon Man January 07, 2016 11:30 PM  

Brings a certain scene from the novel Victoria to mind....

Blogger Desiderius January 07, 2016 11:32 PM  

GJ,

"You are wrong. That argument depends on viewing God primarily as an aggregate of abstract qualities/attributes (eg. omnipotent, omniscient, Prime Mover, etc), which is a particularly Hellenistic-philosophical approach.

However, the Jews viewed God primarily through his actions: He was the Creator, He made the covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, He delivered them from Egypt, He gave them the Law at Sinai and made a Covenant with them, He Dwelt in their midst in the Tabernacle, He brought them to the promised land, and so on."

Well said. See:

http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/arnold/writings/4.html


Blogger Desiderius January 07, 2016 11:35 PM  

malcolm,

"Christ is of course not a 'mere attribute'. He IS God. But just because people don't realize that doesn't mean they don't recognize God at all."

If one does not (now) recognize Christ, then one does not, in fact, recognize God, in both the literal and practical sense.

A Christian can believe nothing else.

Blogger Desiderius January 07, 2016 11:44 PM  

malcolm,

"Christ is of course not a 'mere attribute'. He IS God."

By this, you concede the question you originally posed:

"It's about the question of whether or not what the Muslims refer to as "God" can reasonably either be said to be the same thing but with incorrect attributes attributed to it by Muslims, or a different thing entirely."

It cannot be about the same Being with different attributes when the point of difference is the Being Himself, His essence, and not His attributes.

Anonymous Mr. Rational January 07, 2016 11:52 PM  

@114 The answer is "all of them".  Which one you hear an atheist saying doesn't exist depends on which one you're pushing; for instance, a Hindu isn't usually going to hear an atheist saying that Zeus isn't real.

I'm sure this gets dicey when the subject is Allah, even in the USA.  And if it did result in violence, we can be assured that the lying Marxist media wouldn't mention it.

Anonymous St. Cecilia January 08, 2016 12:37 AM  

It would be better if we just ridiculed people as idiots rather than taking their job. If tenure means anything, it means the freedom to be a fool in public.

Blogger D. G. D. Davidson January 08, 2016 1:09 AM  

@16 I'll add in that just because something is illogical does not mean it is untrue...

Depends on what you mean. An illogical proposition, one that is inherently self-contradictory, such as A equals not-A, is necessarily false. An illogical argument, on the other hand, is invalid, but its statements are not therefore necessarily false.

The proposition that God is three persons in one Godhead cannot be reached by unaided reason; that is, it is not approachable by natural theology. However, it is not an inherent contradiction. It is not illogical in itself, but neither is it approachable with logical argument.

OpenID malcolmthecynic January 08, 2016 1:15 AM  

@131

No, you are equivocating; that or I was unclear.

I'm not talking about one of the essential attributes of God as we know him. I'm talking about the essential attributes for the concept of God to make sense to the point where we can have a discussion and know we're talking about the same thing. One is not equal to the other,

OpenID malcolmthecynic January 08, 2016 1:21 AM  

I'm kind of surprised so many of you hold the position that Jews don't worship God.

I consider that a reductio ad absurdum.

Blogger Desiderius January 08, 2016 1:26 AM  

"know we're talking about the same thing."

We're not. You're begging the question.

God is (a) Being, not a concept. Subject, not object.

Blogger GJ January 08, 2016 1:57 AM  

malcolmthecynic:

My mistake in proceeding too quickly: first you must disabuse yourself of the notion that God is to be known primarily through His abstract qualities. Yes, this is breaking with centuries of philosophical and theological tradition, but it must be done.

A concrete example: when we tell the gospel, we do not speak primarily of God’s abstract qualities but His actions. In this vein do the writers of Scripture communicate about God: though they might speak of his abstract qualities sometimes it is His actions that are central. From yet another perspective, we do not understand another human by his abstract qualities but by his actions, from which we also derive understanding of his character.

To use a Zippyism, a correct philosophical framework underdetermines the reality of God, just as a correct physical and mathematical framework underdetermines physical reality. So even if a Muslim conception of God does not differ significantly in terms of abstract quality of the God, it does not mean that the God is the same.

Blogger Snidely January 08, 2016 2:48 AM  

@133 St. Cecilia
It would be better if we just ridiculed people as idiots rather than taking their job. If tenure means anything, it means the freedom to be a fool in public.

Had our opponents been content to respect that limit, I would be happy to. But since they are adamant that even tenured professors and Noble prize winners must be hounded from their positions, those are the rules we live under.

Besides, the stupid bitch will be snapped up in a heartbeat by a more thoroughly SJW school to improve their cred. Probably Notre Dame.

Blogger Markku January 08, 2016 4:03 AM  

My position is that Muslims _attempt_ to worship the same God as us - namely the being who actually created the universe - but they have been lied to about his attributes on so crucial points that it will do them as much good as if they were worshipping any random pagan God.

I think the "same God" thing is a red herring. The important question is, can Christians and Muslims worship together, and make a pretense that God is watching this and is happy. To that the answer is an unambiguous no. That would be a travesty, and incredibly offensive act to God.

Blogger Markku January 08, 2016 4:08 AM  

I believe "Christians and Muslims worship the same God" is a slogan invented by the enemy, and contains just enough truth on an irrelevant point as to be able to frame the debate in such a way that the Christian gets bamboozled.

Blogger Ahazuerus January 08, 2016 6:23 AM  

I would say a lot of the confusion (even on this thread, amongst some very literate Christians) stems from not knowing WHO the creator is.

The Old and New Testaments do not (can not) contradict each other, and on this point they are in firm agreement: Christ IS the Creator.

Once you get this clear in your mind, a lot of the confusion vanishes.

Secondly, a lot of confusion regarding the Trinity consists of the different definitions that different denominations have. The later protestant sects have abandoned the official Catholic definition, but not the concept itself, having rather adopted a new definition. Suffice it to say that you need to understand which definition you're using in order to have a rational argument about it.

Blogger Markku January 08, 2016 7:05 AM  

Christ IS the Creator

It is correct to say Christ is the creator, and it is also correct to say the Father is the creator:

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Jesus did the actual work, but the creation is still attributed to the Father here. The Muslims attempt to go directly to the Father. And while that was tolerated from the Old Testament Israelites who didn't yet know better, to do it NOW as the Son has been revealed, is to specifically reject the Son.

And of that, John writes:

1Jo 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father:

Anonymous Ain January 08, 2016 7:11 AM  

@141, I agree, that's exactly what it is. I also believe it's an attempt to unify against God, trying to undo what was done at Babel.

Blogger CM January 08, 2016 9:22 AM  

On Judaism and the same God...

Hasn't it been said here time and again (in the comments) that modern day Judaism is NOT OT Judaism?

The OT Judaism seems to be centered on sacrifice and God's provision. His first major self-revelation post-flood is providing the Ram to Abraham in Isaac's place, is it not?

There is a huge departure from this theology in modern day Judaism - the need for sacrifice and the hope in the promise of God providing one. So it would seem a current Jew also is not worshipping the same God as their ancestors.

contains just enough truth on an irrelevant point

This. Romans 1 (? Could be wrong on that) says God has revealed himself to all. In this, I have often seen little bits of Truth in each religion but that has been perverted nearly out of recognition. As a Christian, I say that is the master deceiver at work and can then say that is NOT the same God that I worship while still seeing that they started at the same Truth.

Blogger Desiderius January 08, 2016 10:36 AM  

Ahazuerus,

"from not knowing WHO the creator is"

And that's the question. The Creator is a WHO, not a WHAT.

Is it meaningful to talk of the concept of, say, Malcolmthecynic?

Blogger The Overgrown Hobbit January 08, 2016 1:14 PM  

With apologies to some of my Catholic brethren if this mis-represents Catholic doctrine (we get the basic differences in Catechism, transubstantiation vs. The real presence,frex, but not all the fine points) ...

I believe the following video should help with the trinitarian issue. Or at least give you a hearty laugh.

Lutheran Satire: Http://youtu.be/KQLfgaUoQCw

Anonymous Max January 08, 2016 5:13 PM  

She has a history of SJWism. From http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2016/january/wheaton-college-terminate-tenured-larycia-hawkins-same-god.html

This is the fourth time Hawkins has been asked to affirm Wheaton’s statement of faith, the Chicago Tribune reported. Previous incidents include her academic paper on black liberation theology that was interpreted by some to endorse a kind of Marxism, a Facebook photo showing her at a party on Halsted Street at the same time as Chicago’s Pride Parade, and her suggestions that the college change some of its language about sexuality.

Blogger CM January 08, 2016 6:29 PM  

Relevant. Many here won't like his "moderation" towards muslims, but he echos many of the arguments here laid here.

http://rzim.org/global-blog/do-muslims-and-christians-worship-the-same-god

Anonymous Khasiat Obat Ace Maxs January 08, 2016 8:15 PM  

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Blogger JCclimber January 08, 2016 9:33 PM  

The irony of the Jews is that Jesus was the God of the Old Testament, the One who walked in Eden with Adam and Eve, who wrestled with Jacob, who met up with Joshua as the Captain of the Lord's host.

But since He and the Father are One, that fact in and of itself isn't what is blocking their salvation.

Blogger JCclimber January 08, 2016 9:36 PM  

This isn't the only organization that is starting to quietly purge itself of SJWs. Just one that has caught the MSM attention.

Blogger MycroftJones January 09, 2016 3:48 AM  

I was raised Unitarian, am descended from the Puritans who founded the USA, and until recently, considered myself a Christian. I now realize that what defines a Christian is the Nicene Creed. If America is to recover, it needs Torah. Jesus said, more than once: if they don't listen to Moses and the prophets, they won't listen to me. Since Christians ignore Moses and the prophets, they are deluded when they think they listen to Christ. The Puritan forefathers understood this. Fought and bled for this. Fled the Trinitarians for this. The teachings of Christ, the Gospel, is good. Christianity, the religion... it strays from the Gospel, and so it is ever weak, except during those times that it starts to listen to Moses and the prophets. The Reconquista began by paying attention to Moses. America was founded by refugees who started to listen to Moses.

Blogger MycroftJones January 09, 2016 3:55 AM  

Didact: thank you for the link. Good article. I recommend you read the book "Quranic Geography". There are indicators in there that the Koran was written in the Nabatean empire. Also, solid proof that the original Mecca was the city of Petra, Jordan. The location of Mecca was altered 130 years after the time of Mohammed (whether he existed or not)

OpenID tmdfos January 09, 2016 5:36 PM  

For a proper Catholic perspective on the evil of ecuminism as well it's intersection with judaism and islam for @22 et al., this is a very pertinent essay on RC:
http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2016/01/ecumenism-essay-on-ecumenism-by-don.html

Blogger Didact January 09, 2016 6:40 PM  

@154,

Neat, I'll take a look at that recommendation.

Blogger MycroftJones January 10, 2016 1:58 AM  

@156 Didact, is there a way to reach you off-blog? Or even reliably on-blog? I have other comments to make about your article on the origins of Islam.

Anonymous Bukulu January 11, 2016 5:16 AM  

Markku,

You said in 140 what I meant, and in a much more explanatory way. Thanks!

Anonymous Bukulu January 12, 2016 5:34 PM  

Whoa. I can see why comment-numbers decrease (due to deleted comments) but how can they increase? At any rate, I'm referring to what is now #145.

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