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Saturday, February 13, 2016

Psychologist, heal thyself

This is why therapy is reliably doomed to failure:
Confessions of a depressed psychologist: I'm in a darker place than my patients.

I am sitting opposite my sixth patient of the day. She is describing a terrible incident in her childhood when she was abused, sexually and physically, by both of her parents. I am nodding, listening and hoping I appear as if I appear normal. Inside, however, I feel anything but.

My head is thick - as if I'm thinking through porridge. I find myself tuning out and switching to autopilot. I put it down to tiredness - I haven’t slept well recently; last night I managed just two hours - but after the session I’m disappointed in myself. I'm worried that I might have let down my patient and I feel a bit of  a failure, but I tell no one.

One week later, I am in my car, driving across a bridge. Everything should be wonderful - my partner has a new job, my career as a psychologist in the NHS is going well, plus it’s almost Christmas, the second with our young child, and we’re readying ourselves for a move to London.

Yet, my mind is thick again. My only lucid thought is, “What if I turned the steering wheel and drove into the bridge support? What if I stuck my foot on the pedal and went straight off the edge? Wouldn’t that be so much easier?”

I grip the steering wheel and force myself to think, instead, of my partner and child. They are the two people who get me home safely.

It is the sort of anecdote I have heard from clients time and time again. I became a psychologist because I have a natural nurturing tendency - I never dreamt I would be the vulnerable one. But 10 years ago I found myself suffering from an extremely severe episode of depression that lasted three months, left me unable to work for six weeks and, at my very lowest, saw me contemplating suicide.
Would you go to a plumber whose toilet is overflowing? Would you hire a computer programmer who didn't know how to use a computer? Then why would you ever talk to one of these nutjobs in order to fix whatever mental issues you might be having? In addition to the 46 percent of psychologists who the NHS reports as being depressed, "out of 800 psychologists sampled, 29 per cent reported suicidal ideation and 4 per cent reported attempting suicide."

There is very little scientific evidence of the benefits of psychology. I read one recent study which showed that neurotic individuals actually stabilize on their own at a higher rate than those who seek therapy. This is no surprise, as the foundations of psychology are literally fiction. One might as reasonably base one's economics on Isaac Asimov novels.

How many people do you know that have gone into therapy and never exited it? Those who advocate therapy are rather like fat people testifying to the efficacy of diet plans on which they never lose any weight.

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258 Comments:

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Anonymous Funky Monkey February 13, 2016 8:38 AM  

When I was young I ran with a guy in a Phd psych program, and he said most of his classmates were nuts. He said most of them went into psychology to try and figure out their own issues.

The shrink in episode 3 of the new X-Files was funny because it's true stereotype.

Anonymous Man of the Atom February 13, 2016 8:40 AM  

"I became a psychologist because I have a natural nurturing tendency - I never dreamt I would be the vulnerable one."

How ironic if this personality type is more likely to be "poisoned" by interactions with the mentally troubled rather than being helpful to the afflicted, making potential psychologists those people who should be shielded from such interactions.

Anonymous omar's running shoes February 13, 2016 8:40 AM  

"My partner, this, my partner that"

So sick of it.

He/she/it/xe/xer/zizzle should have driven off that bridge.

Anonymous old man in a villa February 13, 2016 8:44 AM  

When you car is having trouble, you don't take it to a place where someone just listens to the noise it's making and then asks you to keep coming back every week so you can keep listening to the noise, but when people have problems, that's the solution?

It seems to me that there are about a hundred other fixes I'd try before I'd ever have a troubled person just sit there and dwell on their troubles. Seems counter intuitive.

Anonymous Bob Ramar February 13, 2016 8:47 AM  

Psychology is a pseudoscience ranking down there with alchemy, phrenology, sociology, etc. There is no demonstrable cause and effect process.

I have a friend whose college degree is in sociology and another friend whose degree was in engineering. Watching them argue was amusing. One day the engineer asked the sociologist to give him a provable theory. When asked for clarification, the reply was this. "I deal in hard, provable issues like in chemistry. If you take two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen and mix them and add a spark, you get water, first time, any time, any where. Your theories sound like mixing two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen, adding a spark, and usually water results ... but there are exceptions."

I thought that last bit to be brilliant. Wherever there is an exception, it is not science. If an idea is not testable, it is not science. If an experiment is not replicatable, it is not science.

Blogger Ceasar February 13, 2016 8:54 AM  

Assuming you get a good/great therapist/psychologist (wishful thinking), they can usually help peel the onion but are absolutely worthless when it comes to putting the onion back together. That is where developing or having a firm grasp of your reality comes into play. You cannot get on with your life living in fables/myths no matter who around you believes in them also.

Blogger Sun Xhu February 13, 2016 9:04 AM  

@4 You left off Chiropractors.

I would never go to one that wasn't also a massage therapist. Otherwise you're just pissing your money into the wind.

Anonymous redsash February 13, 2016 9:06 AM  

"my partner" ....partner? Who the hell is this? Roy Rogers speaking of Gabby Hayes? As a bachelor does one refer to himself as a proprietorship and upon marriage they are in a partnership? Good God man what will your corporation look like? She is YOUR WIFE. Adopt the language of the insane, the culture of the insane, and guest what? You become one of them. Read the New Testament. Get off your knees. Become a man before leading children.

Blogger jay c February 13, 2016 9:10 AM  

Nobody goes into psychology because of a nurturing instinct. They go into it because they're trying to fix and/or justify their own psychosis. Poke a shrink and you'll likely find a very disturbed individual.

Anonymous Steve February 13, 2016 9:12 AM  

You can easily tell that psychology is bollocks from the fact it's an infamously easy degree pursued by thick people and girls who shouldn't be at university anyway.

As an academic discipline it's slightly above gender studies and slightly below vending machine management.

I'm sceptical of therapy too. Some people may benefit from talking about their problems. Others would be better off just pushing aside negative thoughts and cracking on. Wallowing in sad tales from your miserable childhood probably isn't a healthy activity for most adults.

Blogger Amateur Brain Surgeon February 13, 2016 9:14 AM  

The Catholic Church has submitted itself to modern psychology and it has been wrecked. It should have stayed with the Aristotelian Psychology it always used/promoted until the 1960s and its abandonment of realistic Aristotelian psychology has been an unmitigated disaster.

Too few men understand that modern psychology has not failed, it has succeeded in its mission of mass control via mind control

Of course this therapist is nuts, a well paid one ,but his soul is sick because of what he thinks about his worthless soulless existence.

Have some fun there next time you meet a therapist, ask him to define what a human is.

He will respond with a look that makes you think somebody just brained him with a huge frozen Cod loin.

http://www.culturewars.com/CultureWars/1999/rogers.html

Blogger jay c February 13, 2016 9:16 AM  

Counselors and coaches, on the other hand, can often do a lot of good if they are problem solvers instead of navel gazers.

Blogger Artisanal Toad February 13, 2016 9:17 AM  

@4
Psychology is a pseudoscience ranking down there with alchemy, phrenology, sociology, etc. There is no demonstrable cause and effect process.

Your principle assumption is invalid because the entire idea of psychology is one of idolatry rather than science. It elevates humans to the level of gods and says there *is* something we can do to defeat the laws that God put in place to regulate our lives.

As a form of idolatry, psychology has two basic appeals. First, it feeds the vanity of the individual that claims they are the captain of their fate, the master of their soul. Second, the process is one of validation and attention, in which the attention the therapist gives the patient validates their miserable existence.

Psychology is part of the false religion of humanism and like all other false religions it has a rules-based performance requirement: do these things and you will be okay. The reason Christianity is so offensive, even (more probably *especially*) to churchians, is its fundamental premise is that mankind cannot save itself and there is literally nothing any person can do to please God and obtain forgiveness for sin.

It is only by admitting that we are merely men, that we are powerless to overcome sin and must have a savior that we can avail ourselves of the price our savior paid in order to free us from the burden of sin. That is the "offense" of the cross and the reason it is so inherently offensive to an unsaved world. "Modern man" in his arrogance and vanity is no different from ancient man who participated in a spiritual form of alchemy and magic, thinking all they had to do was follow some arcane formula and their lives would be transformed.

Just as with ancient man, it is the priests who position themselves to receive the tithes and offerings of the people who hope for release. Psychologists (priests) and psychiatrists (sorcerers) are the high priesthood of the new religion, which has many different branches. Just like in ancient times, we have the fertility cult with its center in Hollywood (Baal worship) promoting sexual license and promiscuity. As a result of the worship of sexuality, we have also revived the dread god Molech who takes his sacrifices of innocent children in the abortuaries where instead of passing the children through the fire they are passed through the suction tube.

To argue whether this is a science or not is to completely miss the point that science is a tool that serves men to build and produce things, whereas a religion is a tool that serves demagogues and charlatans in their quest for power and control.

Everything in life is either a tool, a toy or an idol; and all of them exist within the context of humans as created beings who are not at peace with their creator.

Anonymous Eric the Red February 13, 2016 9:18 AM  

Psychiatry has become thoroughly politicized over the last 40 years. What used to be considered mental disorders are now "celebrated" by your friendly leftist nutjob posing as a doctor. For example, someone thinking that their identity does not include a pair of arms will be encouraged to go have them amputated. The latest DSM has become a useless tome better suited for toilet paper.

Also psychiatrists have become little better than pushers of various mind-altering substances. Their prescriptions can be blamed as major contributors to many of the dazed teenage nutjobs who walz into gun-free zones and shoot up their classmates.

Blogger Amateur Brain Surgeon February 13, 2016 9:19 AM  

Re Aristotelian Psychology (Dr Guigan)

The traditional psychology that has sustained western civilization was Aristotelian in origin and was characterized as realist. A human person existed in the real world and consisted of a body and a soul, or animating principle, which conferred on that person his humanity. A human person has vegetative (nutrition and reproduction) and animal (sensation and memory) powers, or abilities. But man also has immaterial powers such as intellect and will. These rational powers in the human body constitute the soul or vitalizing principle of the human person.

The human person has certain habits or tendencies that can direct and perfect, with their development, human tendencies or passions such as for nutrition and generation. These are the virtues, and their counterparts are the vices. One of the virtues, temperance, controls among other passions, the sexual drive. Without this virtue there would be sexual anarchy and no family or civil life. An ascetical corollary of temperance is chastity or the restraint of the sexual drive for more noble purposes such as altruism or religious beliefs.

Over the course of the centuries there have been a number of challenges to Aristotelian psychology, particularly from the idealists who stated that objects and persons were not real but only reflections of ideas. The Enlightenment posed the most serious threat to classical psychology by turning its hierarchy upside down, placing appetite above reason. Positivism posed another threat, but the greatest threat came from Freudian psychology. Classical psychology was universally taught in Catholic psychology departments and seminary formation programs until the 1950s and 1960s when Freudian psychology replaced it.

Anonymous A Visitor February 13, 2016 9:20 AM  

"He/she/it/xe/xer/zizzle" heh heh heh. I want to make two points here. First, notice how NHS' goal is so many people in a short period of time. That is what awaits America next year with the full implementation of Obamacare. Second, those who did psych in medical school are THE ONLY doctors who are guaranteed to be patients themselves. My dad talked about how anyone who specialized in psych always had something wrong with it. He obviously did not do psych but said it was apparent. A great example would be his graduation ceremony from med school. He said the guy that gave the speech was a guy who specialized in psych. He took his mother's last name and kept thanking everybody for being there and talking about how wonderful it was. My dad thought to himself "Here is two hours of my life I am not going to get back. "

Personally speaking, I know one person who majored in psych in college and one person who specialized in psych among another specialty in med school. Neither of them are 100% in the head.

Blogger Amateur Brain Surgeon February 13, 2016 9:21 AM  

Patrick Guinan, M.D, not Guigan.

Blogger Hostem Populi February 13, 2016 9:22 AM  

"One might as reasonably base one's economics on Isaac Asimov novels."

I see what you did there.

Anonymous Hartwick February 13, 2016 9:24 AM  

>"How many people do you know that have gone into therapy and never exited it?"

I know a few. Each went in with the attitude of overcoming a specific issue in their lives. They did. Those that go to stop the general feelbads would probably be better off going for a brisk walk somewhere.

Blogger pyrrhus February 13, 2016 9:35 AM  

When I was 5, the daughter of 2 psychiatrists bit me on the arm for no reason at all. My father, a physicist, then explained to me that all such folks were completely nuts, especially at the U of C, and that I should stay away from them and their kids....good advice, a little too late!

Blogger SciVo February 13, 2016 9:41 AM  

Man of the Atom wrote:How ironic if this personality type is more likely to be "poisoned" by interactions with the mentally troubled rather than being helpful to the afflicted, making potential psychologists those people who should be shielded from such interactions.

There is some evidence for that.

Anonymous The S:PY February 13, 2016 9:45 AM  

Most depression stems from having a spiritual vacuum in ones life.

The greatest psychologist in the world is Jesus Christ. Go to him and read his word and I can assure you that most of your issues will be eliminated.

Psychology, like most other sciences, denies God so what should we be surprised by any of this. Whenever I feel depressed I pray and read God's word. Works for me.

Blogger Lovekraft February 13, 2016 9:49 AM  

Psychology is another 'achievement' of the Baby Boomers. Moral relativism, self-absorption etc.

Not surprising that it has also been converged and only churns out more dysfunction.

It is here in the alt-right manosphere that these errors get called out.

Blogger frenchy February 13, 2016 9:53 AM  

"How many people do you know that have gone into therapy and never exited it?"

Heck, she had me when she used the word "partner", and then "my partner and child". The use of the word "partner" to me sets off so many alarms (of other issues). I guess "partner" is the new "f_ck buddy".

Blogger Salt February 13, 2016 9:54 AM  

psychotherapist

psycho the rapist

heh!

Blogger Gapeseed February 13, 2016 9:59 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Gapeseed February 13, 2016 10:02 AM  

I volunteered at a suicide hotline in Boston and took graduate psychology classes at Harvard (Extension) School.

I was surprised by how many "regulars" called the suicide hotline, and in my time volunteering, grew to appreciate that most people who called were not suicidal but lonely. The volunteers were instructed to listen instead of offering advice, and the listening (even in the short time we kept them on the phone) performed a great service for the callers, who felt unburdened and able to get on with their day. That people were not "cured" in the sense that they could simply stop was beside the point - their loneliness, just like other anxieties, was a chronic by-product of being human. Most often, they called us because they did not have anybody else to talk to, which is a by-product of the disintegration of family and church and the lack of love and trust in their lives. I suspect that the psychotherapists get paid for the same function as family.

Whatever the drawbacks of therapy (or spiritual direction, a similar art), they pale in comparison to the psychopharmacological solutions now in vogue. I suspect most readers here are well aware of the proliferation of young boys given medications to keep them from being boys. The classes I took pushed the psychiatric drug solution strongly, mostly because such solutions end up being cheaper and more obviously efficacious than the therapeutic solution. The problem, though, is that these medicines are prescribed to alleviate symptoms of growth, development and spirituality. Spiritual phenomena? There's a drug for that! And it's a real crime, because we end up discarding the struggle and the journey. Ever wonder why Millenials are so fragile? For some, take a look at their medicine cabinets. I'm not saying there aren't real conditions requiring medical solutions, but if there is any justice, drug company executives will get their comeuppance for pushing drug solutions they don't understand for "problems" that are really nothing of the sort.

One other point - I've heard the saying that you are the sum of the five people you spend the most time with. For hard working therapists, that could be a very depressing thought.

Blogger Ceasar February 13, 2016 10:10 AM  

@22

Maybe boomers have added to it but I don't think they created it. Rollo May (Psychotherapist) noted that therapy was not the NEW creation by the sciences to make humans happier. It was born out of the failure of our culture. That it was the result of something gone wrong in the western world after the Victorian age. Ie. women keeping their legs together and men being respected for self control and masculinity.

Blogger darrenl February 13, 2016 10:23 AM  

What's with the use of the word "partner" to describe your wife/husband/boyfriend/girlfriend? Are all human relationships simply at the business level of goods and services these days?

Blogger Markku February 13, 2016 10:25 AM  

This is how you get human wrecks who get PTSD from audience clapping for them.

Blogger Elocutioner February 13, 2016 10:26 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Escoffier February 13, 2016 10:29 AM  

Really? Freud was a boomer, who knew?

Blogger Escoffier February 13, 2016 10:33 AM  

The analogy to diet is an excellent one. I lost 300 lbs doing lchf which is all science so of course ladies who are as big as a house keep lecturing me on how diets work. Did I mention they are typically as big as a house?

Anonymous Ain February 13, 2016 10:44 AM  

"My only lucid thought is, “What if I turned the steering wheel and drove into the bridge support? What if I stuck my foot on the pedal and went straight off the edge? Wouldn’t that be so much easier?”"

This is a common report from individuals on anti-depressants, often about driving off a bridge or a mountain that they frequently drive through.

Anonymous My Take February 13, 2016 10:44 AM  

I hesitate to speak, as I am not trained in the area in question. However, I know that the answer to a troubled mind / spirit is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. It is stated in I Cor. 14:33. “ For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace” This peace; which passes all understanding, (Phil. 4:7) is the only remedy I am aware of.

Blogger Russell Snow February 13, 2016 10:51 AM  

I was in therapy for a year or so for depression. It was the classic case of repressed anger. Learning to say "that made me angry" cured the depression. I quit when he started trying to cure my Christianity. He was otherwise a great therapist. The first one I knew who dealt with men's issues.

Anonymous BGKB February 13, 2016 10:57 AM  

Sounds like its a gay quack that has a partner and adopted a kid.

I don't believe in psychologists or chiropractors. Other than some short term post trauma situation to help people cope I think most people would learn to deal with things without drugs. A lot of drugs are habit forming that are not listed on paper, they used to say oxycodone was not addictive.

I lost 300 lbs doing lchf which is all science so of course ladies who are as big as a house keep lecturing me on how diets work

LCHF works better for guys than girls. They might as well be giving you advice on buying menstrual pads.

Anonymous Man of the Atom February 13, 2016 11:03 AM  

BGKB wrote:LCHF works better for guys than girls. They might as well be giving you advice on buying menstrual pads.

I *LOVE* having "The Steves" commenting on the blog!

Morning: made!

OpenID sigbouncer February 13, 2016 11:12 AM  

"You left off Chiropractors."

Chiropractors are nothing more than witch doctors. They have no usage of any worth and will make your condition worse in the long run (if not sooner).

Psychologist and Psychiatrists are also risky because their livelihood is dependent upon you continuing to see them. They probably destroy more families, marriages and relationships than any other help profession. People are often easily lead by others who don't always have their best interests at heart.

Blogger Sheila4g February 13, 2016 11:43 AM  

My late uncle the psychologist made a great deal of money. He (and his children) seemed quite friendly on the surface. If there was anything sincere beneath that, I never saw it. His greatest accomplishment in life, according to his obit, was ensuring the de-institutionalizing of his state's mentally ill. Charming man.

To be fair, my 2nd cousin once removed the English psychologist was a genuinely caring man with a wonderful family. He was definitely comfortable, but not obscenely wealthy. Unsurprisingly, he was given the cold shoulder by my uncle.

Blogger Salt February 13, 2016 11:44 AM  

sigbouncer wrote:Chiropractors are nothing more than witch doctors. They have no usage of any worth and will make your condition worse in the long run (if not sooner).

Bullshit! TOTAL bullshit. There are two schools within chiropracti.

The one that works is Myofacial Release. Not the slam, bam, crack everything shit. I know this. I had a bad 3rd lumbar. Subluxation (sp?) I believe it's called. Went to two different chiros, both said they could not fix it, but that they could keep it from getting worse. Wham, bam, crack it. The pain was always there. I was walking like an old man. Screw chiropractors. Charlatans.

Then, because I had exhausted everything, and upon a recomendation of someone I knew... I went to Dr. K. First treatment. That night, for the first time in months, the pain went away. Came back, later, but it had gone away. Treatment next day. Again, pain went away, came back but was less. Week later, no pain. Kept up treatments. Got to going 4 times a year. Now don't go at all. My back is like I'm 30.



Anonymous Bob February 13, 2016 11:48 AM  

It's probably a good idea to differentiate between the concepts of classical psychology (which is based purely on observation and philosophy) and the practice of psychology (which is bullshit).

Studying the classical psychologists helped me understand myself and others better, which eliminated the problems I used to struggle with.

Going to psychologists was always a colossal waste of time. When I need advice on how to get stronger, I go to the strong. When I need advice on how to quit smoking, I go to those who have quit smoking. Why would I seek advice on dealing with anti-social personality issues from someone who has no experience with a) the problem and b) the solution?

Anonymous The Shyster February 13, 2016 11:58 AM  

@28:

"Partnership" is a dangerous word.

Under common law, you create a legal, binding partnership merely by mutually declaring its existence.

Partners are equally liable for all liabilities of the partnership.

A creditor is entitled to collect from either (or both) partners for the debts of either (or both) partners.

Further, every partner owes the other partners an accounting for partnership assets.

Do not bandy the word "partner" around. You may be held to your partnership.

Anonymous BGKB February 13, 2016 11:59 AM  

His greatest accomplishment in life, according to his obit, was ensuring the de-institutionalizing of his state's mentally ill

Its not that conservatives fear change, but they only want change for the better.

OpenID sigbouncer February 13, 2016 11:59 AM  

"Bullshit!"

You're a fool for going to a chiropractor. Everything I have said about them (witch doctors) was a direct quote from one of the most well respected sports medicine doctors in the country. Who works on both college and NFL players and does medical lectures up and down the coast.

They (Chiropractors) are amateur hour and the 4 years of college as a requirement to become one only further proves this. If your back got fixed by one it's because there wasn't much wrong with it to begin with. Consider yourself lucky.

Anonymous rienzi February 13, 2016 12:02 PM  

I was required to take psych 101 at college, these many moons ago. The professor and teaching assistants spent the first half of the course in a mighty effort to convince us that psychology was "science".

Finally, unable to handle the craziness any more, I piped up: "Psychology is just really nothing more than religion for atheists isn't it? Nothing in it can be replicated or proved objectively, so its just like religion. You have to take it on faith."

The eye of Sauron fell on me, but I escaped with a C- for the course. Stayed far, far away from the "social sciences" after that.

Anonymous Ezekiel Cassandros February 13, 2016 12:02 PM  

I tried therapy for a few months. I guess it sort of made me feel a little better to have somebody to talk to, but it didn't noticeably benefit my mood in any tangible way.

Then I got a job.

MUCH more effective.

Anonymous Man of the Atom February 13, 2016 12:03 PM  

Salt wrote:sigbouncer wrote:Chiropractors are nothing more than witch doctors. They have no usage of any worth and will make your condition worse in the long run (if not sooner).

Bullshit! TOTAL bullshit. There are two schools within chiropracti.

The one that works is Myofacial Release.



True. There are also some massage therapists trained in aspects of myofacial release. I've been seeing one for about a year on a bimonthly basis.

Coupled with much more vigorous exercise, my chronic back and hip issues are almost completely eliminated. The exercise is likely key to the recovery, but without the therapy, the pain would have been a continual stumbling block to regular workouts.

Anonymous A Reader February 13, 2016 12:03 PM  

On my way to work I walk through a hotel as a short-cut. The hotel happened to have a conference entitled The 101st North American Psychoanalytical Conference.

I contacted by smart phone a friend, who is an emergency room medical doctor, about this, calling them "a bunch of quacks." She laughed.

Blogger Dexter February 13, 2016 12:04 PM  

@19,

I noted as a kid that the children of psychologists were invariably completely fucked up.

Blogger YIH February 13, 2016 12:04 PM  

I'm not sure if 'science' is the right tag for this post. Talk therapy especially, has as much to do with 'science' as waving around chicken entrails - and they're both about as equally effective.
BQ: She is describing a terrible incident in her childhood when she was abused, sexually and physically, by both of her parents.
Yeah, listening to some chick tell me all about how ''mommy's boyfriend touched me down there''. And yes, it's not the biological father, it's mommy's cock carousel ride 99.44% of the time.
And what can one do about it? Say ''there, there'' and hand her the box of kleenex. If the story's true (with of course, a heapin' helpin' of drama and embellishment) it likely happened so long ago even reporting it to the police is pointless.
Yeah, I can picture the siren song of that bridge abutment in that's guy's situation too.
Mind you, I'm not one of those who say ''mental illness is a myth'' (I've known some like that), what was traditionally called 'madness' is real but the number of cases of that and the treatments that exist are limited.
But some, like that dude in the OP have bills to pay and wish they'd become a plumber so they wouldn't have to deal with so much...

Anonymous Consumer Survivor February 13, 2016 12:05 PM  

@18 Having to deal with shrinks and psychs for a lawsuit (and knowing the industry is BS but the right papers have to be stamped to make my assault 'official') and it's hard keeping a straight face sometimes.

I eventually fired one of the docs after having a revealing chat with my pharmacist about his Dr. Lexus, who was essentially fucking his drug rep, judging by the amounts of off label benzos he was handing out for everything. Seroquel as a fucking sleeping pill? Come on.

Anonymous Man of the Atom February 13, 2016 12:06 PM  

sigbouncer wrote:"Bullshit!"

You're a fool for going to a chiropractor. Everything I have said about them (witch doctors) was a direct quote from one of the most well respected sports medicine doctors in the country. Who works on both college and NFL players and does medical lectures up and down the coast.

They (Chiropractors) are amateur hour and the 4 years of college as a requirement to become one only further proves this. If your back got fixed by one it's because there wasn't much wrong with it to begin with. Consider yourself lucky.


Wow. Speaking of a world of quacks: Sports Medicine.

Chiropractors do lectures up and down the coasts as well. Meaning what?

As with anything, Sturgeon's Law applies.

Blogger Dexter February 13, 2016 12:07 PM  

Myofacial release? I prefer pentadextral release for minor aches and pains.

Anonymous JI February 13, 2016 12:07 PM  

I have an acquaintance who is a therapist and I've told a few of my friends to talk to him about issues they're going through. Without fail, they have gotten good, constructive advice on how to deal with certain issues, sometimes just reading a self-help book that applies to their situation, and sometimes he gives them techniques such as writing down and recording their thoughts in order to identify irrational thinking. And he always encourages them to attend a church and lets them know that he isn't offering them anything that isn't already in the Bible in some form. Now, these were issues like marital troubles, anxiety, depression, nothing too serious.

I think the secret to this guy's success is that he knows his limits. Perhaps the psychologists who are falling into darkness themselves may not know their own limitations, and perhaps they should seek help from God and thereby strengthen themselves before attempting to help others.

Blogger Ostar February 13, 2016 12:10 PM  

Behavior therapy is the only close-to-scientific - and also most long-term effective - psychotherapy. Think Pavlov's dogs - you find out what has conditioned the person's behavior and change that conditioning, reducing or stopping the behavior.

Most of the rest of psychology however has not progressed since Freud's discovery of "the talking cure" - that allowing people (women mostly) to talk about their problems to a therapist generally makes them feel somewhat better.

Blogger Hunsdon February 13, 2016 12:11 PM  

BGKB wrote:His greatest accomplishment in life, according to his obit, was ensuring the de-institutionalizing of his state's mentally ill

Its not that conservatives fear change, but they only want change for the better.


The point of conservatism is not that it prevents movement forward and upward, but that it prevents movement backward and downward, into chaotic darkness and a return to a primitive state.
V.V. Putin

Blogger Dexter February 13, 2016 12:12 PM  

Myofacial release? I prefer pentadextral release for minor aches and pains.

Blogger Salt February 13, 2016 12:13 PM  

sigbouncer wrote:If your back got fixed by one it's because there wasn't much wrong with it to begin with.

Yeah? How the fuck would you know how bad it was? You should have seen the X-Rays. No sigbouncer guesswork there. But go ahead and appeal to the article's credentialism. I've been there and have the back to prove it.

OpenID b1bae96e-6447-11e3-b6bb-000f20980440 February 13, 2016 12:13 PM  

My mother worked for the state as an activity therapist (basically she provided non-violent patients in the mental institution with arts and crafts). Her take on every last psychologists running around was they had worse problems than the patients who were on the whole pretty content but just couldn't function in the real world.

Of course, the state in its infinite wisdom closed all those institutions down and now those people end up spending their time homeless until they are sent to county prison. Can't imagine that is the cheaper more humane solution.

---

Dalrock linked to a survey a while back that showed that marriage counseling was wholly ineffective (zero difference in out come virus not going), and that the main aspect that determined success in marriage, was stubbornness to outlast the problem. Not exactly a character trait in our world of instant gratification and cutting bait at the first sign of bad feelz.

WillBest

Anonymous Trimegistus February 13, 2016 12:19 PM  

What's interesting is how psychology keeps retreating. Every time neurologists learn something new about how the brain works, psychology has to cede more territory. It's basically become the study of "the part of how the mind works that neurologists haven't figured out yet."

OpenID sigbouncer February 13, 2016 12:20 PM  

"Wow. Speaking of a world of quacks: Sports Medicine.

Chiropractors do lectures up and down the coasts as well. Meaning what?"

Do these chiropractors work on million dollar athletes as the Doctor I mentioned does? Do they get paid as such for their lectures? No? I didn't think so...

Blogger Shimshon February 13, 2016 12:20 PM  

The only "therapist" I have ever seen had any success was my friend who became a "life coach" after I turned him on to game and he helped save my marriage. The work he did with me became the blueprint for his coaching. However, this method is only applicable to men. Even then, not all of them are capable of absorbing the material.

Anonymous lpdbw February 13, 2016 12:23 PM  

Several years ago, I went through a period of severe depression caused by the trauma that was the end of my 30+ year marriage.

I was on antidepressants for 18 months and in therapy with a good counselor for a couple of years, starting at 3 times per week and tapering off to every other month.

"Good" counselors, like good chiropractors, are good in spite of their "science" and training. But they do exist.

Blogger Paul, Dammit! February 13, 2016 12:23 PM  

BGKB wrote:Sounds like its a gay quack that has a partner and adopted a kid.

I don't believe in psychologists or chiropractors. Other than some short term post trauma situation to help people cope I think most people would learn to deal with things without drugs. A lot of drugs are habit forming that are not listed on paper, they used to say oxycodone was not addictive.

I lost 300 lbs doing lchf which is all science so of course ladies who are as big as a house keep lecturing me on how diets work

LCHF works better for guys than girls. They might as well be giving you advice on buying menstrual pads.


I picked up the same vibe. 'Partner' is a buzzword for feminist hetero or gay lover, both groups having a significantly elevated prevalence for mental illness and neurosis... and it makes perfect sense- maladjusted or unahappy woman can't fix herself, seeks solace attempting to fix others. But who wants a bad practitioner? It's not like you can go to the med board and see that a certain unlicensed shrink has more paying followers than a temple prostitute.

Blogger Salt February 13, 2016 12:24 PM  

sigbouncer wrote:Do these chiropractors work on million dollar athletes as the Doctor I mentioned does? Do they get paid as such for their lectures? No? I didn't think so...

Your 'appeals to' are noted. [laughing]

Anonymous Susan February 13, 2016 12:25 PM  

Partner usually denotes a couple who are living together, and for all intents and purposes are married in their minds, heart and soul but just refuse to go through with the ceremony. Doesn't always have to do with being gay either.

Some of the most mentally and emotionally ill/disturbed people are in the mental health profession. That has been an obvious fact for decades.

Blogger Shimshon February 13, 2016 12:27 PM  

I met a girl my freshman year in college. Just about one of the most messed up people you could imagine meeting. What saved her, more than anything, was getting knocked up at 20. The father (a real case himself) did marry her, and they proceeded to have two more kids in quick succession. She got her head on real tight after that. She's still crazy today, but more in the line of "crazy old lady" type, and not suicidal nutjob. No question, having the kid(s) so young saved her life.

Blogger Shimshon February 13, 2016 12:27 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Anonymous Man of the Atom February 13, 2016 12:27 PM  

sigbouncer wrote:"Wow. Speaking of a world of quacks: Sports Medicine.

Chiropractors do lectures up and down the coasts as well. Meaning what?"

Do these chiropractors work on million dollar athletes as the Doctor I mentioned does? Do they get paid as such for their lectures? No? I didn't think so...


Lots of "quacks" earn big money. My point sailed right over your head, including the one about Sturgeon's Law.

Salt: "A chiropractor versed in a specific technique treated me successfully." Testimonial evidence.

Man of the Atom: "A massage therapist versed in a specific technique treated me successfully." Testimonial evidence.

sigbouncer: "I know a guy who says all of X are crud. He makes a lot of money!" Appeal to Authority.

You aren't convincing anyone here other than yourself of anything.

OpenID sigbouncer February 13, 2016 12:28 PM  

"Yeah? How the fuck would you know how bad it was?"

Because a chiropractor was able to help and you already stated that your problem was "myofacial release". And as others @47 have pointed out here. This can be fixed from a massage therapist as well.

Also you mentioned nothing about the L3 disc, L4-5, L5-S1 or other lower back discs. If you had a serious back injury then these would have also likely been points of contention.

Blogger Markku February 13, 2016 12:30 PM  

"Because a chiropractor was able to help"

This is the most hilarious case of circular reasoning I've seen in a while

OpenID sigbouncer February 13, 2016 12:31 PM  

"Lots of "quacks" earn big money. My point sailed right over your head, including the one about Sturgeon's Law."

I could give two shits about sturgeon's law.

And for you or anyone else here minimizing the fact that a doctor is so well respected that he works at the top of the food chain (million dollar NFL athletes) and speaks on this just shows your own ignorance.

Anonymous Man of the Atom February 13, 2016 12:33 PM  

Paging Doctor sigbouncer! Paging Doctor sigbouncer! Doctor sgibouncer to the ER STAT!

Blogger Dexter February 13, 2016 12:36 PM  

@62,

First time I met someone who said she was a "life coach" I thought she was just messing with me. My refusal to take her seriously ("no, come on, what are you, really?") was a wildly successful but totally unintentional neg...

Blogger Salt February 13, 2016 12:38 PM  

sigbouncer wrote:Because a chiropractor was able to help and you already stated that your problem was "myofacial release". And as others @47 have pointed out here. This can be fixed from a massage therapist as well.

You're a fucking ignoramus; on the verge of sperging. Myofacial Release isn't a problem. It's a technique. The doc said massage therapy was totally insufficient for my problem. I could go to such, now, for maintenance if I so desired.

You're laughed at, sigbouncer. You really are.

OpenID sigbouncer February 13, 2016 12:42 PM  

"Myofacial Release isn't a problem. It's a technique."

So it's early in the morning and I omitted "fixed by". Big fucking deal. It still doesn't change the fact that your back injury was minor.

So stop being such a pussy about it and acting like you had some major back injury solved by a witch doctor. You wouldn't know real back pain from dick.

Blogger Salt February 13, 2016 12:42 PM  

sigbouncer wrote:And for you or anyone else here minimizing the fact that a doctor is so well respected that he works at the top of the food chain (million dollar NFL athletes) and speaks on this just shows your own ignorance.

So does Hillary and George Soros. Guess we should listen to them, huh?




OpenID sigbouncer February 13, 2016 12:46 PM  

"So does Hillary and George Soros. Guess we should listen to them, huh? "

Are you really this fucking mental? Since when did Hillary or Soro become well respected doctors working on million dollar athletes and being paid to speak about their medical techniques and works?

That's one piss poor analogy if you wanna call it that...

Blogger Salt February 13, 2016 12:46 PM  

sigbouncer wrote:It still doesn't change the fact that your back injury was minor.

Alright, sigbouncer. I hereby INVOKE Vox's Rules. That's a statement and I want evidence for it. Concrete evidence. Present it or retract and everyone will know what a fucking idiot you are. Not that they don't kn ow already.

Moderators, please hold sigbouncer to the rules.



Blogger Markku February 13, 2016 12:51 PM  

It was brought to my attention that sigbouncer was the biggest idiot in living memory to regularly comment at VP. Now, having only a passing interest in Trumpery, I couldn't say aye or nay to this. However, it starts looking like the reports were credible.

Blogger Markku February 13, 2016 12:53 PM  

"That's a statement and I want evidence for it."

That's not exactly how it works. Rather, you are entitled to a QUESTION, related to the claim, that he has to answer. "I don't know" is allowed, as is retracting the claim.

OpenID sigbouncer February 13, 2016 12:54 PM  

There (see below), minor back injury just as I stated.

And just for your own information, if you had any nerve damage (likely), you should have had prolotherapy injections to regenerate the nerves for longevity. But again, you couldn't expect a simple chiropractor with just 4 years of college needed to secure his field to know this.

http://www.spine-health.com/treatment/physical-therapy/myofascial-therapy-treatment-acute-and-chronic-pain

Myofascial therapy relieves soft tissue restrictions that cause pain. Some causes of chronic myofascial pain or low back pain are easier to diagnose than others: trauma (suchas a car accident or fall), cumulative posture misalignment or mechanical deficits, a compressed nerve from a herniated disc, or inflammatory conditions.

When pain is caused by myofascial tightness within the fascial system (the web of connective tissue that spreads throughout the body and surrounds every muscle, bone, nerve blood vessel, and organ to the cellular level) the diagnosis is more difficult, as fascia restrictions do not show up on MRI scans or X-rays. Yet, those restrictions can play a significant role in creating pain and malfunction in the structure of the spine, extremities and organs.

OpenID sigbouncer February 13, 2016 12:56 PM  

"However, it starts looking like the reports were credible."

And you based this opinion on what?

Blogger Salt February 13, 2016 12:58 PM  

My question, Markku, is implicit, being within the presentment of evidence. He made an unsubstantiated statement. How does he know that? Did Dr. sigduncer see the X-Rays?

Blogger Markku February 13, 2016 1:01 PM  

As far as I can tell, he has already laid out his rationale for the claim that your injury was supposedly minor. It's completely circular, which is what Rule 2 would have meant to reveal. But it's already revealed. You cannot get any further enforcement of Rule Two on your behalf, at least not from me. It was a conclusion, presented like an assertion for rhetorical effect.

Anonymous Man of the Atom February 13, 2016 1:01 PM  

Dr sig,

Can you show us your medical license and specialty board that allows you to make such a diagnosis? Board certification in Orthopedics, Osteopathic Medicine, or musculoskeletal- or neuroradiology would all suffice.

Question: What qualifies you to diagnose Salt's medical concern?

OpenID sigbouncer February 13, 2016 1:03 PM  

"How does he know that?"

I know that because of your treatment idiot. It was just spelled out for you @82 and previously @70.

Blogger Markku February 13, 2016 1:03 PM  

"And you based this opinion on what?"

Based on how much bluster, after an appeal to authority, and circular reasoning.

Blogger YIH February 13, 2016 1:04 PM  

How many people do you know that have gone into therapy and never exited it?
Woody Allen (IIRC since the early '60s) and Roseanne (IIRC since the early '80s) are two (in)famous examples. 'Nuff said.
Ever wonder why Millenials are so fragile? For some, take a look at their medicine cabinets.
RoK can give you some tips on that, checking the medicine cabinet (and elsewhere) should be right up there with checking the Faceberg page.
His greatest accomplishment in life, according to his obit, was ensuring the de-institutionalizing of his state's mentally ill. Charming man.
Another tragedy of the '60s-'70s, granted, some were no better (and in some ways worse) than prisons but doing away with them was not the answer - even though ''conservatives'' saw it as a cheaper idea and the left saw doing away with them as a ''civil rights'' *vomit* issue.
Seroquel as a fucking sleeping pill? Come on.
Check out the Whackopedia page on that stuff. Just lovely.
BTW, how much you want to bet Please Clap is on various and sundry meds? It would explain a lot...

Blogger Markku February 13, 2016 1:05 PM  

If you are unhappy with my judgement, Salt, you are welcome to appeal to Vox.

Blogger Salt February 13, 2016 1:08 PM  

Oh, not at all, Markku. He's shown himself a total idjit. I'm just a touch bored. It's cold out, and not much to do but play with the resident cockroach.

OpenID sigbouncer February 13, 2016 1:11 PM  

"Based on how much bluster, after an appeal to authority, and circular reasoning."

Those are all cute little words that I'm sure you are very proud of putting them down here. However the logical fallacy doesn't apply at all here.

Only someone completely uninformed would claim they had a major back injury cured by myofacial release. As previously stated, he doesn't know a real (serious) back injury/back pain from dick.

Blogger Markku February 13, 2016 1:12 PM  

The unfortunate fact is that out there, bluster DOES get you quite far. And the old school Ilk who knew the culture, have already strategically withdrawn. So, what did they expect to happen? This is the new reality now. People make the culture, not random enforcement of culture gone by.

Blogger Markku February 13, 2016 1:14 PM  

That's nice, sig.

I have my eye on you now.

Anonymous Man of the Atom February 13, 2016 1:14 PM  

sigbouncer wrote:"Based on how much bluster, after an appeal to authority, and circular reasoning."

Those are all cute little words that I'm sure you are very proud of putting them down here. However the logical fallacy doesn't apply at all here.

Only someone completely uninformed would claim they had a major back injury cured by myofacial release. As previously stated, he doesn't know a real (serious) back injury/back pain from dick.


My question yet stands unanswered, Dr sig.

Blogger Salt February 13, 2016 1:17 PM  

sigbouncer wrote:had a major back injury

Where did I ever say major? I said I had a subluxation (sp?) at 3rd lumbar. I was walking like an old man. It was you, idjit, who said

sigbouncer wrote:Chiropractors are nothing more than witch doctors. They have no usage of any worth and will make your condition worse in the long run (if not sooner).

To which I took issue.

My god, but you are one trashy piece of work.

OpenID sigbouncer February 13, 2016 1:22 PM  

Bluster | Definition of Bluster by Merriam-Webster
www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bluster

Define bluster: to speak in a loud and aggressive or threatening way.


There have been no indications from me in any posts with respects to writing in a "threatening way".

I'd call what you call bluster. As writing passionately about subjects I have knowledge of. And have seen others here do the same without response.

But you can call it bluster because it furthers the agenda of labeling one in an negative way. Transparency.

Anonymous Man of the Atom February 13, 2016 1:23 PM  

By the by, Dr sig, maybe this will help: Appeal to Authority

Blogger Salt February 13, 2016 1:24 PM  

Oh, and one more thing, dridjitsigdunceman... you have no knowledge of the level of pain I experienced. None. So, Shut.The.Fuck.Up.

Blogger Markku February 13, 2016 1:24 PM  

"to utter with noisy self-assertiveness".

Goodbye now, sig.

OpenID sigbouncer February 13, 2016 1:29 PM  

"Where did I ever say major? I said I had a subluxation (sp?) at 3rd lumbar. I was walking like an old man."

I addressed the issue of your injury being minor @44. Everyone's pain tolerance is different. I suspect yours is quite low.

Anonymous Man of the Atom February 13, 2016 1:35 PM  

Salt,

Dr sig demonstrates the total arrogance and ignorance only shown by select neurosurgeons and sports medicine physicians during the 20+ years I've worked in the medical field.

Dx/Tx for Dr sig: Don't do it!

Blogger Salt February 13, 2016 1:35 PM  

sigbouncer wrote:I suspect yours is quite low.

Actually, it's quite high. The point, moron, is a chiropractor fixed my problem. She was anything but, in your words, "have no usage of any worth and will make your condition worse in the long run (if not sooner)."

It wasn't about being major or minor, but that Myofacial Release works where applicable. The doc laughs at the other school of chiropracti. Says they're idiots.

You, though, are worthless. Most people here know that.

Blogger Markku February 13, 2016 1:39 PM  

You can pretty quickly learn to apply this treatment to yourself, Salt. You only need a large hook that can reach your entire back. A product for this, called Kipukoukku, is one of the most massive business successes in Finland for the last decade. But you don't need to pay 50EUR for it, any ol' hook will do.

It's really easy to learn because you are doing it to yourself. You get immediate feedback about what works and what doesn't, unlike someone else's back.

Blogger haus frau February 13, 2016 1:40 PM  

I went to a psychologist who did the stereotypical "hmm mm Hmmm tell me more..." non-counseling. I didn't get a thing from it. Totally worthless. A few years later I went to a different counselor who was also a licensed nurse. I wonder if that made the difference in her approach to dealing with her clients baggage. She was the only source of objective, manipulation free practical advice in my life at that point and it helped immensely. So from my own experience there is a lot of good to be done by counselors who focus on goals and the material actions that patients can take to achieve those goals in real life. I think the British call this an "agony au nt".
Good counseling is not judgement free but is objective. It teaches people how to restrain their emotions and respond to reality in a practual manner. It basically teaches common sense behavior. Most counseling is the exact opposite. Like the first counselor I went to, it encourages dwelling on your own feelings with no material goal in sight. It teaches self absorbtion and that, in my opinion, is why it fails so terribly. If there is one thing a depressed person does not need it's more self-reflection.

OpenID sigbouncer February 13, 2016 1:41 PM  

"Actually, it's quite high. The point, moron, is a chiropractor fixed my problem. She was anything but, in your words, "have no usage of any worth and will make your condition worse in the long run (if not sooner)."

Yeah unfortunately you cannot say this with any certainty. As I already pointed out with my previous comments on you possibly needing prolotherapy to regenerate any possible nerve damage you may have incurred.

OpenID sigbouncer February 13, 2016 1:46 PM  

"You, though, are worthless. Most people here know that."

You keep on pushing this agenda and eventually you may have some people here follow you on it. Funny how some take a debate to this level. The ones that do generally feel they are on the losing end of the discussion. Thus they take this approach in efforts to get others to circle the wagon.

Anonymous Man of the Atom February 13, 2016 1:49 PM  

sigbouncer wrote:"Thus they take this approach in efforts to get others to circle the wagon."

The only one here with a wagon is you, Dr sig. Is it red? Is it a Radio Flyer? Does it go?

Blogger haus frau February 13, 2016 1:49 PM  

I went to a psychologist who did the stereotypical "hmm mm Hmmm tell me more..." non-counseling. I didn't get a thing from it. Totally worthless. A few years later I went to a different counselor who was also a licensed nurse. I wonder if that made the difference in her approach to dealing with her clients baggage. She was the only source of objective, manipulation free practical advice in my life at that point and it helped immensely. So from my own experience there is a lot of good to be done by counselors who focus on goals and the material actions that patients can take to achieve those goals in real life. I think the British call this an "agony au nt".
Good counseling is not judgement free but is objective. It teaches people how to restrain their emotions and respond to reality in a practual manner. It basically teaches common sense behavior. Most counseling is the exact opposite. Like the first counselor I went to, it encourages dwelling on your own feelings with no material goal in sight. It teaches self absorbtion and that, in my opinion, is why it fails so terribly. If there is one thing a depressed person does not need it's more self-reflection.

OpenID sigbouncer February 13, 2016 1:52 PM  

"The only one here with a wagon is you, Dr sig. Is it red? Is it a Radio Flyer? Does it go?"

You are one attention starved individual.

I suspect you're the type of guy who drops his pants in front of a mirror just to make himself laugh.

Blogger Salt February 13, 2016 1:52 PM  

sigbouncer wrote:Yeah unfortunately you cannot say this with any certainty. As I already pointed out with my previous comments on you possibly needing prolotherapy to regenerate any possible nerve damage you may have incurred.

Numbnuts, she said it was possible I might have some nerve damage. But she thought we'd gotten to it soon enough. Said it was a good thing I didn't stay with that 'other' doc. She actually used the word, quack. Given it's been over ten years now, I can say with a lot of certainty I had no nerve damage, or so little it's irrelevant.

Now, go away.

Blogger Escoffier February 13, 2016 1:52 PM  

Not so sure I agree large religious text ignored. My wife lost 70 lbs and completely cured her type 2 diabetes to the point where her physician asked if she was certain she used to beat diabetic (a1c went from 11-4.5)

That seems pretty good to me. I find acouplw of years in that women simply cannot admit that processed carbs are addictive and spin wilder and wilder scenarios for why their current diet is always failing.

Anonymous Man of the Atom February 13, 2016 1:55 PM  

sigbouncer wrote:"The only one here with a wagon is you, Dr sig. Is it red? Is it a Radio Flyer? Does it go?"

You are one attention starved individual.

I suspect you're the type of guy who drops his pants in front of a mirror just to make himself laugh.


No, you're doing just fine for amusement. Thanks!

You really aren't all that bright, so it's a good thing that sports medicine doc who makes millions with the NFL and speaking tours is there to advise you. Keep him handy, always.

Blogger SciVo February 13, 2016 1:56 PM  

Ain wrote:This is a common report from individuals on anti-depressants, often about driving off a bridge or a mountain that they frequently drive through.

I had that thought once. It was because I was on my way to work. So I quit my call center job doing tech support for cable internet, and the feeling went away.

If that is common for people on anti-depressants, it's probably because they're using a chemical bandage instead of dealing with the cause.

Blogger Markku February 13, 2016 2:09 PM  

Robin Williams skit on antidepressants.

I think it's perfectly obvious that this is the reason why anti-depressants lead to suicide. They get you detached from your feelings, which is what the person thinks what he wants, because he is so familiar with the painful ones. But then, instinct of self-preservation is also a feeling. After that, the person will commit suicide the moment it seems like the rational winning play in his situation.

OpenID sigbouncer February 13, 2016 2:10 PM  

"Given it's been over ten years now"

Ten years does not equal long term unless you're a dyslexic midget.

OpenID sigbouncer February 13, 2016 2:16 PM  

"You really aren't all that bright"

I hereby INVOKE Vox's Rules. That's a statement and I want evidence for it. Concrete evidence. Present it or retract and everyone will know what a fucking idiot you are. Not that they don't know already.

Moderators, please hold Man of the Atom to the rules.

Blogger Salt February 13, 2016 2:16 PM  

For any who might have similar needs. Myofacial does work. My doc knew my opinion of chiropractors when we started; not good. She even agreed, given the type of treatment I'd been receiving; quackery she called it. I asked her how successful her method is. She related this - one of a few -

There was one gentleman, elderly, whose problem was a bit different from mine. He was in constant pain and had a hard time walking. He'd tried everything, so he'd thought. Nope. He wound up with Dr. K and Myofacial. Took a bit of time, but the day came where he took his wife out dancing.

OpenID sigbouncer February 13, 2016 2:17 PM  

^^^ My best Salt imitation.

Blogger Salt February 13, 2016 2:17 PM  

sigbouncer wrote:I hereby INVOKE Vox's Rules. That's a statement and I want evidence for it. Concrete evidence.

see this thread. hell, see about any thread idjit's been commenting in.

Blogger RobertT February 13, 2016 2:21 PM  

I believe it.

Blogger Markku February 13, 2016 2:23 PM  

sigbouncer:

You made in the quoted message a similar naked assertion about your opponent, "You are one attention starved individual." to which Atom responded with "You really aren't all that bright". I therefore determine from context that this is a rhetorical pissing match, and neither is a genuine assertion of fact. Both are mere insults, to which Rule Two doesn't apply.

Anonymous Man of the Atom February 13, 2016 2:25 PM  

Moderators,

I humbly offer as evidence Posts 38, 44, 61, 70, 72, 76, 78, 82, 83, 87, 92, 97, 101, 106, 107, 116 in this thread to demonstrate Dr sig's cognitive cupidity.

quod erat demonstrandum

OpenID sigbouncer February 13, 2016 2:26 PM  

"see this thread. hell, see about any thread idjit's been commenting in."

Here is the last thread I commented in. Let's hear that retraction now Salt. Or are you above the rules?

http://voxday.blogspot.com/2016/02/two-down-five-to-go.html#comment-form

"And the best comment so far goes to @65 sigbouncer."

Blogger Markku February 13, 2016 2:26 PM  

Supererogatory act is supererogatory.

Blogger Salt February 13, 2016 2:30 PM  

sigbouncer wrote:see see about any thread idjit's been commenting in."

Here is the last thread I commented in.


Blind pig finds ear of corn. You moron, I didn't say all.

Anonymous Man of the Atom February 13, 2016 2:31 PM  

Markku,

Apologies to Vox, you, and the rest of the moderators for the off-topic entertainment. It's been fun, but I now beg our host's and your forgiveness and stand down from this encounter.

OpenID sigbouncer February 13, 2016 2:31 PM  

"sigbouncer:

You made in the quoted message a similar naked assertion about your opponent, "You are one attention starved individual." to which Atom responded with "You really aren't all that bright". I therefore determine from context that this is a rhetorical pissing match, and neither is a genuine assertion of fact. Both are mere insults, to which Rule Two doesn't apply."

I was attempting a bit of humor with this. But I will say it's interesting and entertaining to see how it actually is applied and ruled upon.

Blogger Markku February 13, 2016 2:44 PM  

Also, I see from the comment history that the last thread you commented in is not what you said it was. It was "He didn't read the book", and this was your latest comment in it:

"Phil Anselmo also apologized. His fans are backing him though." They always do. Phil is good people. I first met him back when he played in a nobody band called Razor White. Commented on Phil a little bit a few years ago at Vox's Alpha Game.

You said this on the 11th, and I double-checked that there were no comments from you in between. This further makes me suspect that you have little concern for the accuracy of your statements if you believe them to have rhetorical force.

OpenID sigbouncer February 13, 2016 2:56 PM  

"You said this on the 11th, and I double-checked that there were no comments from you in between. This further makes me suspect that you have little concern for the accuracy of your statements if you believe them to have rhetorical force."


I did make a couple of responses regarding Phil late the other nite. Yeah being spot on accurate about when the last time I posted here isn't really high on my list of priorities.

Salt's saying "about any" was the point of my response. Instead of accurately addressing this false claim, you choose to nitpick over the irrelevant. Transparency.

Blogger Salt February 13, 2016 2:58 PM  

sigbouncer wrote:Instead of accurately addressing this false claim,

What's false about it? You're an idjit.

Blogger Markku February 13, 2016 3:02 PM  

Yeah being spot on accurate about when the last time I posted here isn't really high on my list of priorities.

And yet you claimed it was the last thread. A claim you had no reason to make.

I wasn't born yesterday. It is obvious that you said it was the last thread in order to make it seem like it's just any ol' randomly picked thread, and lo and behold, someone liked your comment in it! When in reality you picked the thread for that reason, and then tried to retrofit it into a random pick.

OpenID sigbouncer February 13, 2016 3:03 PM  

"What's false about it? You're an idjit."

Losing your moderator challenge still has you seething I see. You're a real piece of work.

"Waaa I hurt ma back real bad and had to see the witch doctor to fix it"

"Teacher he said something I don't agree with, please make him stop. Waaaa"

OpenID sigbouncer February 13, 2016 3:06 PM  

"I wasn't born yesterday. It is obvious that you said it was the last thread in order to make it seem like it's just any ol' randomly picked thread"


Okay Miss Cleo.

How about I invoke Vox's rules here and have you prove that was my intention as you are asserting here? Yeah that's what I thought...

Blogger Markku February 13, 2016 3:08 PM  

I didn't assert it was your intention. I asserted that it is "obvious" - which is an internal state of mind and therefore outside the realm of proof - that this is the case. The claim as about the internal state, not the external reality.

It is so cute that you think I'd let myself get caught in Rule Two in the same thread I talked about it.

Blogger Salt February 13, 2016 3:11 PM  

sigbouncer wrote:Losing your moderator challenge still has you seething I see.

Didn't lose anything, sigdunder.

Markku wrote:It's completely circular, which is what Rule 2 would have meant to reveal. But it's already revealed. You cannot get any further enforcement of Rule Two on your behalf

But I'm delighted to see you sperging. Carry on.

Blogger Salt February 13, 2016 3:17 PM  

Markku wrote:and lo and behold, someone liked your comment in it!

Not only that, said

sigbouncer wrote:"And the best comment so far goes to @65 sigbouncer."

Time for an iJeb "please clap", sigidjit?

Blogger Gapeseed February 13, 2016 3:20 PM  

@10 Amateur Brain Surgeon - Interesting link you put there. Vatican II and the spirit of the sixties crippled the Church. I had no idea how insidious encounter sessions really are.

I have found that regular swimming does a world of good for bad backs.

OpenID sigbouncer February 13, 2016 3:23 PM  

"I didn't assert it was your intention. I asserted that it is "obvious" - which is an internal state of mind and therefore outside the realm of proof - that this is the case."

No, where I come from you were calling me a liar. And you should either back that up or stfu.

The problem with people like you on the internet is that you don't talk the same in the real world as you do here. You call somebody a liar without evidence in the real world and you would take the chance of getting knocked on your ass.

But your internet persona says you can say whatever without repercussion. So you act differently here than you would in the real world. While I act and speak the same in both worlds.

OpenID sigbouncer February 13, 2016 3:25 PM  

"Didn't lose anything"


You asked for a moderator to make me retract what I said and it didn't happen. That's called a loss dumbass.

Blogger Salt February 13, 2016 3:32 PM  

sigbouncer wrote:You asked for a moderator to make me retract what I said and it didn't happen. That's called a loss dumbass.

I'll happily settle for silver. You get the cupie doll, mr chose the that one specific comment above all others, idjit. btw, I'm laughing at your desperation.

Blogger Markku February 13, 2016 3:34 PM  

Here is an example of the kind of situation that Rule Two is meant to apply, and in which it is legitimate to invoke it:

-Donald Trump was caught having sex with an underage male prostitute. A man like that is unfit to be president.
-What is your evidence that this ever happened?
-Do you want me to come wipe your ass too? Find it yourself if you're so interested!

Attempted abuse of Rule Two is tiresome to moderators, and will probably result in serious loss of good will if done repeatedly.

OpenID sigbouncer February 13, 2016 3:37 PM  

"I'll happily settle for silver."

Spin it however you like that helps you live with yourself. You're the one in the end who has to answer to the man in the glass, not me.

Blogger Artisanal Toad February 13, 2016 3:43 PM  

@118

Salt, I have a friend, a "real" MD with lots of post-doc training; a damn good doctor. He lost his medical license because he is fluent in Russian and has a habit of reading Russian medical journals (the vast majority of which are not included on Med-Line). As a result he engaged in therapies that did not meet the "accepted standard of care." The fact that the therapies he employed were superior to the "accepted standard of care" is meaningless to a state medical board.

His chief offense was operating a hyperbaric chamber to treat multiple different pathologies, one of which was Parkinson''s disease. He had one woman who brought her husband in, he was far enough along that he couldn't talk. After a few hours in the chamber at 1.5 atmospheres and about 40% oxygen, he came out talking. Wouldn't shut up. His wife never brought him back again. Others continued to come back for further (very successful) treatments and the stories they told resulted in an investigation which resulted in him losing his license.

The moral to this story is that for people like a certain interlocutor on this thread, anecdotal evidence is never enough, the evidence has to be presented by the gatekeepers. The same gatekeepers that destroyed Dr. Rife's life's work and made sure he died in prison. Such people are to be pitied and ruthlessly mocked because they display the same level of arrogance and hubris that their highly esteemed gatekeepers possess.

If you're interested, you might look up Dr. Fredrick Klenner and his articles on intravenous ascorbic acid (IVAA) therapy. I know from personal experience that it immediately ends the pain and tissue damage caused by rattlesnake bites and cures many cell-types of non-Hodgins Lymphoma as well. I have also observed it to cure some melanoma's, cervical and breast cancer and every case of small cell squamous carcinoma of the lung that it's been used on.

It's an interesting action because it creates hydrogen peroxide in the cells. Depending on the cell type, some cancers have no catalase and others have only very low levels and thus are unable to neutralize the hydrogen peroxide with the result that the cell dies. Again, depending on the cell type, it has a specific cytotoxic effect that first nails down the metastasis and then goes after the tumors. In fact, the greatest danger of this therapy is the tumors can die so suddenly that the necrotic cascade can kill the patient. Yes, it's all anecdotal and IVAA will never be the source of any serious study because one cannot patent a vitamin.

But, please carry on. I have plenty of popcorn and I'm thoroughly enjoying this.

Blogger Salt February 13, 2016 3:45 PM  

sigbouncer wrote:"I'll happily settle for silver."

Spin it however you like that helps you live with yourself. You're the one in the end who has to answer to the man in the glass, not me.


Please? Oh, please, pretty please? And see, "the best comment so far goes to @65 sigbouncer." Look at me! Look at me!

bwahahahahaha ... loser.

Blogger kh123 February 13, 2016 3:55 PM  

@14 "The Enlightenment posed the most serious threat to classical psychology by turning its hierarchy upside down, placing appetite above reason."

Cue the "only an idiot would assert this" in 3, 2...

Wait, there it is. Different subject, same performance.

Anonymous Man of the Atom February 13, 2016 3:57 PM  

Artisanal Toad wrote:@118

Salt, I have a friend, a "real" MD with lots of post-doc training; a damn good doctor. He lost his medical license because he is fluent in Russian and has a habit of reading Russian medical journals (the vast majority of which are not included on Med-Line). As a result he engaged in therapies that did not meet the "accepted standard of care." The fact that the therapies he employed were superior to the "accepted standard of care" is meaningless to a state medical board.

His chief offense was operating a hyperbaric chamber to treat multiple different pathologies, one of which was Parkinson''s disease. He had one woman who brought her husband in, he was far enough along that he couldn't talk. After a few hours in the chamber at 1.5 atmospheres and about 40% oxygen, he came out talking. Wouldn't shut up. His wife never brought him back again. Others continued to come back for further (very successful) treatments and the stories they told resulted in an investigation which resulted in him losing his license.


Interesting. Hyperbaric treatment is often used for wound healing in patients that have limited blood flow. Never heard of Parkinson's as a targeted disease. I need to do some IXQuick searches.

Do you happen to know if your physician friend ever asked his institutional review board for clearance to do research in these areas of interest? I'm curious, as I know some IRBs are much more willing to support this type of research than others are.

Blogger Salt February 13, 2016 3:59 PM  

Artisanal Toad wrote:After a few hours in the chamber at 1.5 atmospheres and about 40% oxygen

Fascinating. Wonder if there's any data on scuba divers? and Parkinson's.

Blogger kh123 February 13, 2016 4:00 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger RC February 13, 2016 4:05 PM  

@Sig: "But again, you couldn't expect a simple chiropractor with just 4 years of college needed to secure his field to know this."

In most states chiropractors are required to earn a bachelor's degree and then attend a chiropractic college for an additional three to four year endeavor.

Your arguments are asinine. Help is where you find it.

Anonymous Man of the Atom February 13, 2016 4:10 PM  

Salt wrote:Artisanal Toad wrote:After a few hours in the chamber at 1.5 atmospheres and about 40% oxygen

Fascinating. Wonder if there's any data on scuba divers? and Parkinson's.


Maybe not on Parkinson's, but a good number of research studies related to hypo- and hyperbarics have been done to look at brain lesions due to diving sickness and altitude exposure. Navy and Air Force do research here. The Aerospace Medicine Association may have some links.

https://www.asma.org/about-asma/careers/undersea-hyperbaric-medicine
http://www.hyperbariclink.com/treatment-centers/listing.aspx?tcid=TX021

Blogger kh123 February 13, 2016 4:15 PM  

...Alright, back to psychology.

@26 "I'm not saying there aren't real conditions requiring medical solutions, but if there is any justice, drug company executives will get their comeuppance for pushing drug solutions they don't understand for "problems" that are really nothing of the sort."

Likely, not for nothing is pharmakeia listed in the Revelations laundry list.

Blogger Neanderserk February 13, 2016 4:17 PM  

Projection is a psychological principle. Psychologists make money off crazy customers. It therefore behooves them to see their customers as crazy. It therefore behooves them to be crazy themselves. Thus any successful psychologist is professionally nuts. The primary purpose of insane asylums is to sequester psychologists from the sane.

If you think this theory is crazy, you should be a psychologist.

Blogger Salt February 13, 2016 4:19 PM  

Man of the Atom wrote:diving sickness

If that's "the bends" - decompression sickness (DCS) or Caisson disease occurs in scuba divers or high altitude or aerospace events when dissolved gases (mainly nitrogen) come out of solution in bubbles and can affect just about any body area including joints, lung, heart, skin and brain.

Divers use helium for extended deep dives. Doesn't disolve into the blood if I understand it right. I used to dive, but not extended. Divers go out here, do some deep heli-ox. No chamber on the boat.

Anonymous Man of the Atom February 13, 2016 4:24 PM  

Salt wrote:Man of the Atom wrote:diving sickness

If that's "the bends" - decompression sickness (DCS) or Caisson disease occurs in scuba divers or high altitude or aerospace events when dissolved gases (mainly nitrogen) come out of solution in bubbles and can affect just about any body area including joints, lung, heart, skin and brain.

Divers use helium for extended deep dives. Doesn't disolve into the blood if I understand it right. I used to dive, but not extended. Divers go out here, do some deep heli-ox. No chamber on the boat.


You've got it. Hyperbaric medicine in the Navy and Air Force have been doing work in this area for decades. Long term damage to nerve tissue is a significant concern for medical personnel treating sailors and airmen.

Blogger kh123 February 13, 2016 4:26 PM  

@144: " The fact that the therapies he employed were superior to the "accepted standard of care" is meaningless to a state medical board."

How the Cold War tables have turned. Unrelated but not entirely, theoretical framework for stealth technology came from a lone Russian mathematician's paper, IIRC.

Taleb's gap between invention and implementation because of bureaucracies. For most folks a growing suspicion when it comes to western medicine.

Blogger Markku February 13, 2016 4:29 PM  

There's one hyperbaric service center in Helsinki. 350EUR one time, 900EUR 5 times, 5000EUR 40 times.

Blogger Salt February 13, 2016 4:30 PM  

Man of the Atom wrote:You've got it.

So, if such treatment is not available... hmmm... go diving. Specialty diving. Tanks filled heli-ox but only 40% O? Could stay down at 1.5 atmospheres (1 atmosphere is 33 feet) for couple hours. Take friends.

Blogger Markku February 13, 2016 4:31 PM  

This is what capitalism looks like, you Commies

Blogger Neanderserk February 13, 2016 4:34 PM  

Teachers teach what they can't do;
Psychologists preach because they're blue.

Pastors stand 'tween God and man
Pleasing whichever one they can.

Whores sell love with hearts of stone
And social workers empty homes.

Governments betray the just
Every single bank is bust.

Find a virgin if you can
Uncle Sam is still her man.

Anonymous Man of the Atom February 13, 2016 4:34 PM  

Salt wrote:Man of the Atom wrote:You've got it.

So, if such treatment is not available... hmmm... go diving. Specialty diving. Tanks filled heli-ox but only 40% O? Could stay down at 1.5 atmospheres (1 atmosphere is 33 feet) for couple hours. Take friends.


Just don't ever let the words "diagnosis" and "treatment" escape anyone's lips.

Interesting concept, Salt.

OpenID sigbouncer February 13, 2016 4:38 PM  

http://edzardernst.com/2013/10/twenty-things-most-chiropractors-wont-tell-you/

1. Chiropractic theory and practice are not based on the body of knowledge related to health, disease, and health care that has been widely accepted by the scientific community.

Most chiropractors believe that spinal problems, which they call “subluxations,” cause ill health and that fixing them by “adjusting” the spine will promote and restore health. The extent of this belief varies from chiropractor to chiropractor. Some believe that subluxations are the primary cause of ill health; others consider them an underlying cause. Only a small percentage (including me) reject these notions and align their beliefs and practices with those of the science-based medical community. The ramifications and consequences of subluxation theory will be discussed in detail throughout this book.


3. Our education is vastly inferior to that of medical doctors.

I rarely encountered sick patients in my school clinic. Most of my “patients” were friends, students, and an occasional person who presented to the student clinic for inexpensive chiropractic care. Most had nothing really wrong with them. In order to graduate, chiropractic college students are required to treat a minimum number of people. To reach their number, some resort to paying people (including prostitutes) to visit them at the college’s clinic.2

Students also encounter a very narrow range of conditions, most related to aches and pains. Real medical education involves contact with thousands of patients with a wide variety of problems, including many severe enough to require hospitalization. Most chiropractic students see patients during two clinical years in chiropractic college. Medical students also average two clinical years, but they see many more patients and nearly all medical doctors have an additional three to five years of specialty training before they enter practice.

Chiropractic’s minimum educational standards are quite low. In 2007, chiropractic students were required to evaluate and manage only 15 patients in order to graduate. Chiropractic’s accreditation agency ordered this number to increase to 35 by the fall of 2011. However, only 10 of the 35 must be live patients (eight of whom are not students or their family members)! For the remaining cases, students are permitted to “assist, observe, or participate in live, paper-based, computer-based, distance learning, or other reasonable alternative.”3 In contrast, medical students see thousands of patients.

Former National Council Against Health Fraud President William T. Jarvis, Ph.D., has noted that chiropractic school prepares its students to practice “conversational medicine”—where they glibly use medical words but lack the knowledge or experience to deal appropriately with the vast majority of health problems.4 Dr. Stephen Barrett reported a fascinating example of this which occurred when he visited a chiropractor for research purposes. When Barrett mentioned that he was recovering from an attack of vertigo (dizziness), the chiropractor quickly rattled off a textbook-like list of all the possible causes. But instead of obtaining a proper history and conducting tests to pinpoint a diagnosis, he x-rayed Dr. Barrett’s neck and recommended a one-year course of manipulations to make his neck more curved. The medical diagnosis, which had been appropriately made elsewhere, was a viral infection that cleared up spontaneously in about ten days.5


20. The media rarely look at what we do wrong.

The media rarely if ever address chiropractic nonsense. Reporting on chiropractic is complicated because chiropractors vary so much in what they do. (In fact, a very astute observer once wrote that “for every chiropractor, there is an equal and opposite chiropractor.”) Consumer Reports published superb exposés in 1975 and 1994, but no other print outlet has done so in the past 35 years. This lack of information is the main reason I have written this book.

Anonymous Malwyn's apprentice February 13, 2016 4:40 PM  

@26 Gapeseed
but if there is any justice, drug company executives will get their comeuppance for pushing drug solutions they don't understand for "problems" that are really nothing of the sort.

I see this as a chicken & egg scenario. The drug companies wouldn't create products that don't have a market; therapists (of whatever type) wouldn't prescribe drugs if they didn't exist. So at some point, patients/therapists started looking for the quick fix and drug companies started looking at creating products to manage (not cure) mental issues.

Not having any medical training whatsoever (or even playing a doctor on TV), I'd estimate that psychiatric drugs are truly necessary for perhaps 5-10% of the people in treatment. Instead of reserving drugs for those truly desperate cases, they've become a quick shortcut so the doctor/therapist doesn't have to bother with actually treating the patient, 'cause that's actual work. Much easier to string them along for years.

Anonymous Man of the Atom February 13, 2016 4:43 PM  

*sigh* Paging for a γ-sperg cleanup on Comment 162.

Blogger Markku February 13, 2016 4:44 PM  

That is exactly the page I read, and concluded that you are full of shit, sig. It explains the general hostility to the practice, because it is so often presented as a panacea. However, Salt had the exact problem it's MEANT to address, namely a sore back. And as you may note, the author of your link is a chiropractic himself, so clearly HE also believes it brings help to people. But only if they have Salt's problem.

OpenID sigbouncer February 13, 2016 4:48 PM  

"Only a small percentage (including me) reject these notions and align their beliefs and practices with those of the science-based medical community. The ramifications and consequences of subluxation theory will be discussed in detail throughout this book."

What do you not understand about the words "only a small percentage of Chiropractor's reject these notions"?

Anonymous Man of the Atom February 13, 2016 4:50 PM  

sigbouncer wrote:"Only a small percentage (including me) reject these notions and align their beliefs and practices with those of the science-based medical community. The ramifications and consequences of subluxation theory will be discussed in detail throughout this book."

What do you not understand about the words "only a small percentage of Chiropractor's reject these notions"?



Sturgeon's Law -- but you don't give two shits about it.

Blogger Markku February 13, 2016 4:52 PM  

It is possible, albeit by no means certain, that Salt practitioner has also given treatment for ailments for which it doesn't actually help. But it's irrelevant, because Salt didn't go to her because of these ailments, but because of the correct one.

OpenID sigbouncer February 13, 2016 4:53 PM  

"(In fact, a very astute observer once wrote that “for every chiropractor, there is an equal and opposite chiropractor.”)"


So you still want to recommend chiropractor's when a most respected one of their own talks about them like this? How unbelievably idiotic of you.

They are a joke and there is a well documented history of injuries incurred by them. Just like I was told. They are poorly trained "witch doctors" who do far more harm than good.

Blogger Salt February 13, 2016 4:56 PM  

Markku wrote:However, Salt had the exact problem it's MEANT to address, namely a sore back.

Hardly sore, Markku. I had material pushing out from between two vertebra. She never said she - could - fix it, but that she thought she could. Said it was one of the worse of my type she'd seen. Any worse and it would BE the knife; surgical fusion.

Blogger Markku February 13, 2016 5:05 PM  

So you still want to recommend chiropractor's when a most respected one of their own talks about them like this?

Nobody here has recommended them without qualification. Salt said that prior to the one that brought help, he had already went to two that brought none. This is entirely consistent with the field having a serious quack problem.

Blogger Artisanal Toad February 13, 2016 5:05 PM  

@164

It's an interesting state of mind displayed. The interlocutor does not accept personal testimony (anecdotal) as evidence but trumpets anecdotal evidence from an authority figure, all the while decrying the lack of "science" surrounding chiropractic medicine.

I'm thinking perhaps some hot butter for the popcorn would be appropriate while awaiting assurances that the train is fine and the predictable response to that. Orville seems to have done a fine job, once again.

Blogger Salt February 13, 2016 5:08 PM  

sigbouncer wrote:They are a joke and there is a well documented history of injuries incurred by them. Just like I was told. They are poorly trained "witch doctors" who do far more harm than good.

You stupid fuck.

"A friend of mine had bone marrow cancer in his left leg and his oncologist recommended amputating the leg. After getting a confirming second opinion, my friend agrees to surgery.
When he wakes up, he discovers they've taken the wrong leg. He still has to undergo the amputation which the doctor volunteers to do for free.
After the second surgery, my friend sues but in this world where the most money wins, he loses his suit.
The judge ruled he didn't have a leg to stand on."

OpenID sigbouncer February 13, 2016 5:18 PM  

My point stands to stay away from them on the whole and go to a more qualified doctor.

You wanna put something is vital to your everyday life as your back in somebodies hands with the minimal medical experience a chiropractor has. Then you are not very smart. Especially when there are plenty of better more qualified options out there.

Blogger Salt February 13, 2016 5:21 PM  

Sigidjit has been torn a new asshole here today, and he doubles down @174. Can it get any better than that?

Anonymous tublecane February 13, 2016 5:30 PM  

@20-That's a rather loose definition of trauma. Then again, nobody really knows what constitutes PTSD. I guarantee this psychiatrist's patients could just as easily be lying as not. These quacks like to pretend they can see through BS, from their training and whatnot. But has that ever been tested? And if psychiatry has cracked lie detecting why haven't they shared their secret with the police, for instance?

OpenID sigbouncer February 13, 2016 5:31 PM  

Triple down...Because I'm right.

@44

Salt: "Bullshit!"

Sigbouncer: You're a fool for going to a chiropractor. Everything I have said about them (witch doctors) was a direct quote from one of the most well respected sports medicine doctors in the country. Who works on both college and NFL players and does medical lectures up and down the coast.

They (Chiropractors) are amateur hour and the 4 years of college as a requirement to become one only further proves this. If your back got fixed by one it's because there wasn't much wrong with it to begin with. Consider yourself lucky.

Blogger Artisanal Toad February 13, 2016 5:37 PM  

@171

This is entirely consistent with the field having a serious quack problem.

This is actually no more serious a problem than with those who are literally licensed to kill and have the backing of a powerful organization to cover up their misdeeds. It is a fact that by definition, a licensed doctor cannot be held accountable for what they do, but only in how they do it; i.e., a violation of "acceptable standards of care" through negligence (malpractice). Those who wrote the acceptable standards of care had and have a vested interest in preserving their economic power.

The current medical establishment (medical schools, the AMA and FDA) is literally in the pocket of the pharmaceutical manufacturers association and it has been well-said that the most physically attractive prostitutes tend to be pharmaceutical sales reps.

In a previous comment I mentioned Dr. Frederick Klenner's intravenous ascorbic acid therapy and why such therapy (which would be enormously beneficial to patients) will never be pursued. However, I can give an even better example: Dr. Stanislaw Burzynski. More than TWENTY years ago I sat in an office with two agents of the FDA following their inspection of our facility. The discussion was wide-reaching and Burzynski's name came up. When I asked why his antineoplastin therapy wasn't fast-tracked, they answered me (yeah, shocking to anyone with this experience) with the 3 reasons it won't be fast-tracked or approved.

1. The stuff isn't toxic at all, and if you can't show a LD-50, then by law it can't be approved.
2. He can't explain the effect. We know it works and he's proved it, but he can't tell us *exactly* how it works.

They admitted that point one could be mitigated by simply adding something mildly toxic in order to show an LD-50 at ridiculously massive doses and point 2 could be overlooked because the stuff is light-years better than any other chemo-therapeutic available. The problem was point #3:

Dr. Burzynski and his wife own the patents on the antineoplastin therapy *personally* and it is the policy of the FDA to not approve or license ANY compound unless it is owned by a corporation.

This is the medical version of Bastiat's Law. You cannot see or measure all the good that might have been done and all the lives saved if doctors were able to utilize the therapies that are most efficacious. The science is there and I have personal experience with IVAA therapy and have read the clinical trial reports on Burzinski's antineoplastin therapy. The evidence is peer-reviewed and repeatable, but the best therapies are kept locked away by "acceptable standards of care." Hell- I'm told that in Tennessee a doctor is required to sign an agreement not to use EDTA for anything *other* than lead poisoning in order to get licensed.

I suspect that the fight against chiropractic medicine is just another verse in the same song and I'm sure the chiropractic profession would be far more effective if they were embraced by the medical community and some real research done in that area. The fact that some chiropractic practitioners are capable of producing good results indicates that someone has the right answer so all that's really needed is research. But, there are some important and powerful people who have fought tooth and nail to keep such research from being done. Why is that?

Blogger Rez Zircon February 13, 2016 5:41 PM  

The therapist is describing classical hypothyroidism. Low thyroid causes low blood sugar which starves the brain, which in turn produces brain fog, lack of motivation, and depression. This may or may not be accompanied by weight gain, and/or any of several hundred other potential symptoms (which can be as varied as adult-onset tooth decay and some types of cancer).

Nearly all "psychological" problems are actually faults or failures in the brain's biochemistry (often due to genetic defects -- PTSD is now known to be due to such a defective gene), which is why "therapy" accomplishes nothing, and very often makes matters worse.

Shrinks are often the craziest people around, because many went into psychology as a way of validating their own problems.

Blogger Rez Zircon February 13, 2016 5:43 PM  

@178 Some years ago there was a study of chiropractors vs massage therapists. The study concluded that they basically do the same thing, which is why some chiropractors seem to have good results.

Blogger Markku February 13, 2016 5:45 PM  

I'm sure the chiropractic profession would be far more effective if they were embraced by the medical community

It is here. The EU has declared it a valid and scientific treatment for chronic back pain, and doctors often send patients to chiropractors. If the patient has a written referral, the national health insurance will pay part of the cost.

Anonymous Man of the Atom February 13, 2016 5:54 PM  

Artisanal Toad wrote:@164

It's an interesting state of mind displayed. The interlocutor does not accept personal testimony (anecdotal) as evidence but trumpets anecdotal evidence from an authority figure, all the while decrying the lack of "science" surrounding chiropractic medicine.

I'm thinking perhaps some hot butter for the popcorn would be appropriate while awaiting assurances that the train is fine and the predictable response to that. Orville seems to have done a fine job, once again.


Gammas come in all kinds of packages -- I step out for dinner and it's already time for dessert. Popcorn sounds good.

Anonymous Man of the Atom February 13, 2016 5:59 PM  

sigbouncer wrote:Triple down...Because I'm right.


'Cuz Gamma just GOTTA BE RIGHT!

Vox is right again: To Be or Not To Be Gamma

Anonymous Man of the Atom February 13, 2016 6:09 PM  

Markku wrote:I'm sure the chiropractic profession would be far more effective if they were embraced by the medical community

It is here. The EU has declared it a valid and scientific treatment for chronic back pain, and doctors often send patients to chiropractors. If the patient has a written referral, the national health insurance will pay part of the cost.


Same as here in many parts of the USA, Markku. Dr sig needs to consult with his sports medicine doc who works with the NFL and lectures up and down the coast. I hear he makes a lot of money.

Blogger Sheila4g February 13, 2016 6:19 PM  

I was raised considering chiropractors quacks. I've reconsidered the majority of what I was taught to believe, but because I've never had back or chronic pain, I've never considered seeing a chiropractor.

My husband has one leg a bit shorter than the other due to breaking an ankle on a growth plate in high school basketball. He often has back pain and has gone to chiropractors for years. He's also had spinal decompression therapy.

He believes it helps him. I don't feel the pain or receive the treatment, so I don't comment or argue about it. This thread has confirmed that has been one of my smarter choices.

OpenID sigbouncer February 13, 2016 6:40 PM  

"sig needs to consult with his sports medicine doc who works with the NFL and lectures up and down the coast."

He knows the meridians a helluva lot better than the witch doctors do. DABMA certified.

Anonymous JamesD February 13, 2016 6:51 PM  

"my partner has a new job, my career as a psychologist in the NHS is going well, plus it’s almost Christmas, the second with our young child," Either a lesbian or woman shacking up. And she's depressed. Take 2 prosac and call me in the morning.

Blogger beerme February 13, 2016 6:53 PM  

If you have any interest in using myofascial release on your own, pick up the "Trigger Point Therapy Workbook" by Clair Davies. It is essentially a troubleshooting guide for muscle related pain and is well worth the less than $20 price tag.

Anonymous Man of the Atom February 13, 2016 6:59 PM  

sigbouncer wrote:"sig needs to consult with his sports medicine doc who works with the NFL and lectures up and down the coast."

He knows the meridians a helluva lot better than the witch doctors do. DABMA certified.


Dr sig, do you mean he's a Diplomate, American Board of Medical Acupuncture? That is, he's board certified acupuncturist?

Acupuncture? And you have your panties in a bunch over chiropractic? Really?

Blogger Michael Maier February 13, 2016 7:07 PM  

Another GP suggested antidepressants but Prozac did nothing and Seroxat made me feel even worse, much worse.

THIS is why "therapy" pisses me off. How can anyone read the scientific literature and be convinced these pills work as they are supposed to?

Ambien didn't help me sleep right but gave me psychotic nightmares. My doc suggested an anti-depressant instead. I remember wanting to cuss her out. How that even figures is beyond me.

I remember being shocked years ago reading that many prescription medications only work less than HALF the time.

The only medicines I ever take are aspirin, anti-diarrhea and anti-allergy as needed. I don't trust anything else modern medicine has to offer.

They can't figure out blood but I'm to trust my life that they have the BRAIN figured to a safe degree?

OpenID sigbouncer February 13, 2016 7:14 PM  

"Acupuncture? And you have your panties in a bunch over chiropractic? Really?"


Already relayed what his thoughts are on chiropractor's. I agree with him. And basically so does this chiropractor, who has testified against his own profession:

The following is a guest post by Preston H. Long. It is an excerpt from his new book entitled ‘Chiropractic Abuse—A Chiropractor’s Lament’. Preston H. Long is a licensed chiropractor from Arizona. His professional career has spanned nearly 30 years. In addition to treating patients, he has testified at about 200 trials, performed more than 10,000 chiropractic case evaluations, and served as a consultant to several law enforcement agencies. He is also an associate professor at Bryan University, where he teaches in the master’s program in applied health informatics. His new book is one of the very few that provides an inside criticism of chiropractic.

http://edzardernst.com/2013/10/twenty-things-most-chiropractors-wont-tell-you/

Blogger Michael Maier February 13, 2016 7:16 PM  

I was skeptical about chiropractors for years after watching a friend go all the time but she was still always hobbling about.

I finally went once and the first session was amazing. I felt ridiculously energized and relieved of much tension.

The subsequent visits gave very quickly diminishing returns so I stopped going.

I don't trust any "sports surgeons". I saw "The best sports doctors in Indy! They work on Colts players!" First they insisted my carpal tunnel syndrome needed surgery to correct. It didn't. Changing how I played the drums fixed that all by itself.

Then the very same "Best docs" insisted my cubital tunnel syndrome (confirmed by electrical testing) needed surgery as well. I asked about therapy since I'd fixed my own carpal tunnel and the doc told me I was completely wrong, didn't happen.

I bought Matt Furey's "Cure Tennis Elbow" (or something like that), did some exercises and it went completely away.

Two "expert" opinions can suck my gray-haired nuts. They're just as eager to rape your health for money as any other quack.

And they probably have bigger mortgages to pay off.

Anonymous Man of the Atom February 13, 2016 7:19 PM  

sigbouncer wrote:"Acupuncture? And you have your panties in a bunch over chiropractic? Really?"

Already relayed what his thoughts are on chiropractor's. I agree with him. And basically so does this chiropractor, who has testified against his own profession:


"Appeal to Authority" does nothing to condemn the profession, and you're too dim to understand that.

You really are too short for this ride, Dr sig.

OpenID sigbouncer February 13, 2016 7:23 PM  

http://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/antidepressant-use-spending-sprees-1280.php

According to San Diego, Calif.- based psychiatrist David Reiss, any antidepressant and stimulant can trigger hypomania, a psychological state that makes a person feel euphoric. And while a patient may gain such positive effects as being super-confident, creative and outgoing, it can also cause extremely poor judgment concerning money.

That was true for Wendy Honeycutt of Bellevue, Texas. She had been prescribed antidepressants to help cope after a series of tragic events, including the death of her young son. While medicated, she began to spend and charge recklessly.

"My needs were being met by grabbing a credit card," says Honeycutt. "I ended up with closets full of crap. When you're on those drugs you don't care. They cause you to be selfish. It doesn't allow you to see yourself though a proper perspective. You have a craving for something, but it was more in the purchase. I would order stuff on eBay and Amazon and days later it came in the mail, and I didn't remember buying it. By the time it came I didn't want it anymore."

After Honeycutt ceased her medication, she was nearly $25,000 in debt.

Sterling, Va., resident Elisa-Ruth Nelson was only on antidepressants for nine months, and during that time was compelled to not just acquire things, but credit cards, especially retail accounts. "They were pretty!" says Nelson, "I amassed so many of them. The Limited, Macy's, Bloomingdales ... I just did what I wanted. I bought St.John suits and Louis Vuitton. Whatever was in the window, I bought it. If the sales girl said I looked good -- I bought it."

When she went off the drugs, says Nelson, "Miraculously, it was over." Debt remained, though, and like Honeycutt, Nelson is using a credit counseling agency's repayment plan to deal with it.

One man who owned a $50 million company was making terrible decisions -- his CEO was trying to talk him out of them -- and it put the company into bankruptcy.



Blogger Markku February 13, 2016 7:24 PM  

The subsequent visits gave very quickly diminishing returns so I stopped going.

Yeah, you probably got ONE particular problem fixed, which was related to your back muscles and thereby caused a plethora of secondary problems. So, your body noticed the difference between the problem in place, and the problem gone. But it didn't do any good to try fixing it further.

OpenID sigbouncer February 13, 2016 7:27 PM  

""Appeal to Authority" does nothing to condemn the profession, and you're too dim to understand that."


He condemned at least half of them. But you obviously like to repeat your little catch phrases too much have figured this out.

@169
"(In fact, a very astute observer once wrote that “for every chiropractor, there is an equal and opposite chiropractor.”)"

OpenID sigbouncer February 13, 2016 7:33 PM  

Here he condemns a high percentage of them.

@162
"Most chiropractors believe that spinal problems, which they call “subluxations,” cause ill health and that fixing them by “adjusting” the spine will promote and restore health. The extent of this belief varies from chiropractor to chiropractor. Some believe that subluxations are the primary cause of ill health; others consider them an underlying cause. Only a small percentage (including me) reject these notions and align their beliefs and practices with those of the science-based medical community. The ramifications and consequences of subluxation theory will be discussed in detail throughout this book."

Anonymous Man of the Atom February 13, 2016 7:37 PM  

sigbouncer wrote:""Appeal to Authority" does nothing to condemn the profession, and you're too dim to understand that."

He condemned at least half of them. But you obviously like to repeat your little catch phrases too much have figured this out.

@169

"(In fact, a very astute observer once wrote that “for every chiropractor, there is an equal and opposite chiropractor.”)"



... and for every NFL-consulting, up-and-down-the-coast consulting, money-hand-over-fist making sport medicine doc, there is a quack of a sport medicine doc. Someone is bound to have that opinion. And it's just as valid an argument as the logical fallacy (Appeal to Authority) that you offer here.

And you wouldn't know the difference.

Logical fallacies are obviously too dear to your gigantic heart and your tiny head. For you own well being, stay away from the card sharps in Atlantic City.

OpenID sigbouncer February 13, 2016 7:43 PM  

"And it's just as valid an argument as the logical fallacy (Appeal to Authority) that you offer here."

You're appeal to authority examples are wrong because they are based on the authority cited as not being an expert. When they have already been proven otherwise. Sad you don't even understand the concepts of your overly repeated catch phrase.


"And you wouldn't know the difference."

The real problem here is you don't know the difference between an ST9 or GB20. Yet you constantly and ignorantly insert yourself into the discussion over and again as if you have something important to say.

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