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Thursday, February 18, 2016

Put a cassock in it, Your Holiness

Not being Catholic, I don't pay much attention to Pope Francis, but I'm beginning to see why so many Catholics are not at all happy with him.
'A person who thinks only about building walls, wherever they may be, and not building bridges, is not Christian,' Francis said in answer to a specific question about Trump's views. 'This is not in the gospel.'

Asked if American Catholics should vote for someone with Trump's views, Francis said: 'I am not going to get involved in that. I say only that this man is not Christian if he has said things like that.

'We must see if he said things in that way and in this I give the benefit of the doubt.'
As you can imagine, Donald Trump's response was appropriately withering:
'If and when the Vatican is attacked by ISIS, which as everyone knows is ISIS's ultimate trophy, I can promise you that the Pope would have only wished and prayed that Donald Trump would have been President because this would not have happened.

ISIS would have been eradicated unlike what is happening now with our all talk, no action politicians.

The Mexican government and its leadership has made many disparaging remarks about me to the Pope, because they want to continue to rip off the United States, both on trade and at the border, and they understand I am totally wise to them.

The Pope only heard one side of the story - he didn't see the crime, the drug trafficking and the negative economic impact the current policies have on the United States. He doesn't see how Mexican leadership is outsmarting President Obama and our leadership in every aspect of negotiation.

For a religious leader to question a person's faith is disgraceful. I am proud to be a Christian and as President I will not allow Christianity to be consistently attacked and weakened, unlike what is happening now, with our current President.
At this rate, Trump is going to end up being the first man being elected both President and Pope.

Labels: ,

208 Comments:

1 – 200 of 208 Newer› Newest»
Anonymous Viidad February 18, 2016 2:10 PM  

If Trump were pope, I might consider Catholicism.

Anonymous Crude February 18, 2016 2:12 PM  

As a Catholic, the only thing I disagreed with with Trump's response is that it's improper to question whether a self-proclaimed Christian really is.

Otherwise, it's becoming abundantly clear that this is a rotten Pope. Fine - we've had rotten Popes before. But let's not be afraid to note what we're dealing with.

Anonymous Gordian February 18, 2016 2:14 PM  

I'd like to see the Prophet Nehemiah respond to the Pope's commentary.

Anonymous Wyrd February 18, 2016 2:16 PM  

I am proud to be a Christian and as President I will not allow Christianity to be consistently attacked and weakened, unlike what is happening now, with our current President.

Preach it, brother Trump. President Butt-Naked claims to be a Christian but he's done nothing but ridicule Christianity while lauding Islam his entire presidency. I don't think he's a Muslim; he's far too narcissistic to believe in anything higher than himself but he does demonstrate he considers Islamic culture to be wonderful.

Anonymous Stephen J. February 18, 2016 2:22 PM  

Under Just War theory, one of the roles of the clergy is to seek reconciliation rather than destruction wherever possible, and to challenge those who resort to violence or the refusal of charity before it is necessary. One can disagree in good conscience with even the Pope about whether a specific situation has passed beyond such bounds; I respect Francis as my spiritual leader, but I can disagree with his political perspectives.

Let us also bear in mind that with regard to both Mr. Trump and His Holiness, what the media says they said is not always, or even seldom, the full or accurate truth of what was meant.

Blogger Dave February 18, 2016 2:23 PM  

No catholic here but Pope Alpha Trump has a ring to it. But seriously what career politician has ever publicly stated these truths regarding Mexico?

Blogger Matamoros February 18, 2016 2:23 PM  

As a Catholic it is important to remember that Francis is only a man uttering his private, personal opinions that in no way bind any Catholic to believe his b.s.

There is a reason why the Jesuits are dying out rapidly - when once they were the most educated and rational priests of the Church. These statements by Francis, a Jesuit, only highlight that.

Trump is undoubtedly the only real Christian running; certainly the only one who is promising to protect Christianity.

Blogger Florian Ulrich February 18, 2016 2:24 PM  

Trump will build a beautiful wall around the United States. The US will become one YUGE new Sistine Chapel!

Blogger haus frau February 18, 2016 2:25 PM  

On that basis the pope just declared the majority of American Christians to be "not real Christians". Not well versed on public relations is he?
And yet he doesn't seem to question the relationship between islam and the Christian God much....but that Trump, he's definitely a stench in Christ's nostrils.

Blogger haus frau February 18, 2016 2:25 PM  

On that basis the pope just declared the majority of American Christians to be "not real Christians". Not well versed on public relations is he?
And yet he doesn't seem to question the relationship between islam and the Christian God much....but that Trump, he's definitely a stench in Christ's nostrils.

Blogger Gilbert Ratchet February 18, 2016 2:26 PM  

Not a bad response but the first paragraph does not assume the sale:

If and when the Vatican is attacked by ISIS, which as everyone knows is ISIS's ultimate trophy, I can promise you that the Pope would have only wished and prayed that Donald Trump would have been President because this would not have happened.

Anonymous rienzi February 18, 2016 2:29 PM  

Prior to WW2, Agentina enjoyed one of the world's highest standards of living.

Then socialism happened.

Francis would be better served cleaning up his own back yard in Argentina before commenting on ours.

Blogger haus frau February 18, 2016 2:29 PM  

Ancient Hebrews surrounded their powerful cities with high walls.they maintained borders with their neighbors. One might note when God was angry with the inhabitants those walls came down. It's not unreasonable to note a correspondence between solid borders and a solid relationship with God.

Anonymous Viidad February 18, 2016 2:31 PM  

The pope is just jealous that the decor in Trump Tower rivals the Vatican.

Blogger newanubis February 18, 2016 2:32 PM  

Popes in walled fortresses ought not throw stones. Or barbs. Boy, they must really be coming to grips with populace anger.

Blogger Anchorman February 18, 2016 2:32 PM  

Free and open borders for the Vatican!

Blogger praetorian February 18, 2016 2:33 PM  

From the last thread:

MFW Le Pope criticizes big, beautiful walls.

The pope needs to be careful here. His political pronouncements can be safely ignored by conservative catholics, but with this language he is treading dangerously close to speaking ex cathedra. It is very foolish of him.

Anonymous Gordian February 18, 2016 2:33 PM  

@13 There's a reason the Church is the City of God, not the County of God: walls against the heathen and gates from which to proclaim the Word.

Blogger Bullitt315 February 18, 2016 2:33 PM  

The new pope is terrible. All my atheist catholic (raised) friends seem to think he's great with his new progressive outlook. Of course none of them are going back to the church or anything. Appealing to people who don't believe in God and probably won't doesn't seem like the smart play.

Anonymous Steve February 18, 2016 2:36 PM  

This is one of the best endorsements Mr Trump has received to date.

It's not only cuckservatives he triggers, but cuckstianity merchants too.

Anonymous karsten February 18, 2016 2:37 PM  

Arminius
Martin Luther
Bismarck
Trump

Seems that it is ever the fate of Germans to defend the West from globalist Romans.


https://twitter.com/Treuburg/status/700400924661952512

- - - -

After he passes, Antipope Francis's bones shall have to be exhumed and put on trial for treason against Western Civilization.

https://twitter.com/Treuburg/status/700402225055567878

- - - -

Martin Luther, quoted today from the grave:

"Somehow, 'I told you so' doesn't quite say it."


https://twitter.com/Treuburg/status/700401209409032192

Blogger John Wright February 18, 2016 2:42 PM  

"'We must see if he said things in that way and in this I give the benefit of the doubt.'"

Please note my guy, the Pope, is wise enough not to trust the Press. His Holiness no doubt read what the press said about him.

If the press is trying to stir up a controversy between the Pope and Donald Trump, my assumption is that both of them said something perfectly reasonable, and that the press is a scorpion nest of goddam liars, and any reader who believes the press reported anyone's words correctly is a fool.

This is clearly a case of "you and him fight".

I am, however, willing to believe Donald Trump announced and open doors policy with a free chocolate cookie for all ISIS soldiers crossing our borders to rape and kill American children, and that the Pope called for a new Crusade and burning Moslems at the stake before I will believe anything the press says about either of those two men.

The press is the enemy.

Of course the never-sufficiently-damned press wants a fight between Trump and the Pope. Who else opposes the Culture of Death that the press so strongly and so dishonestly supports?

Anonymous Stephen J. February 18, 2016 2:42 PM  

It is also worth pointing out that what Francis said was, "A person who thinks only about building walls, rather than bridges, is not Christian" -- in other words, if the only thing you want to do is to turn the needy away rather than try to figure out ways to help them, you are wandering dangerously far from the spirit of Christ. It is up to the rest of us to decide whether that description aptly applies to Trump's proposed policies.

I think a solid case can be made that this is unlikely. First of all, nobody's that black and white -- I'm sure Trump has as much altruism in him as any sane person. Second of all, it is possible to rank one group of "needy" ahead of others on purely practical grounds, and Trump's position (as I understand it) is not that economic migrants are "undeserving" of charity but simply that the degree of charity now in de facto effect is unsustainably costly and will cause unacceptable fallout to needy Americans if not reined in. That decision is not incompatible with Christian faith, even if it is one that can be argued as to whether it is correct or not.

It may be equally possible, even plausible, that in his heart Trump really doesn't believe and what he claims to want to do out of charity for Americans he may really be doing to increase his personal pride and power. But while it is tempting to assume this, one should not, as a matter of justice, state that this is so when one cannot know it.

Blogger Eric Mueller February 18, 2016 2:42 PM  

This Pope seems to be more of an Earth worshipping pagan than a Catholic. He's more concerned with Global Warming, feminism, and Marxism than any of the tenants of his faith.

If he read his Bible, he's see it has a lot to say about walls.

Oh, yeah, the Vatican has a wall. Maybe he should tear it down to be more consistent with his words?

Blogger praetorian February 18, 2016 2:44 PM  

This is clearly a case of "you and him fight".

The press is the enemy.

Thank you, John. Always worth bearing in mind.

'Divide et impera' isn't just a river in Egypt.

Anonymous Hmm February 18, 2016 2:45 PM  

The seat is quite clearly vacant.

Anonymous #8601 Jean Valjean February 18, 2016 2:45 PM  

The Pope needs to read "Cuckservative", especially Chapter 9.

"It's not right to take the children's food and toss it to the dogs" - Jesus Christ

Blogger Austin Ballast February 18, 2016 2:48 PM  

So Charles Martel should have built a bridge for the Islamic invaders oh so many years ago instead of fighting them?

Blogger David February 18, 2016 2:50 PM  

And, last time I checked, invading another country to take advantage of it's comparatively greater wealth, disobeying the civil authorities, and lying your ass off are also 'Un-Christian' behaviors.

Blogger dc.sunsets February 18, 2016 2:52 PM  

Oh, did the Pope get an update on how often Latinos turn out to be sex traffickers, rapist and pedos?

Oops. I forgot, the Catholic Church has been recruiting a whole lot of Seminary students from Latin America.

As the line goes from The Cabin in the Woods, "We work with what we've got."

Blogger Salt February 18, 2016 2:52 PM  

Trump should black knight, invoke Reagan, "Pope Francis, tear down this wall!"

Blogger Sevron February 18, 2016 2:57 PM  

With respect to Mr. Wright, I do believe the press in this instance. They have no history of making pretend heroes of their enemies, only of making their enemies into cartoon villains and their own mediocre sods into "heroes".

Furthermore, the Pope has many platforms from which to correct or clarify, but to my knowledge never had. I have seen no evidence he isn't exactly what he appears to be- a Socialist playing LARPing as Pope.

Blogger ray February 18, 2016 3:07 PM  

Got a real lol from this. Pot, hello kettle. On the Mo Morals chart, I'll put Donnie's mob connects up against the associates of Poop Francis any day. At least the mob has an ethos and attempt to act like men.

oh and p.s. Donnie doesn't pretend to speak for Jesus, either. Doesn't pretend he is Holy. Doesn't pretend to be the planet's father.

Go back to your meet-n-greets with Madonna and Merkel, you fake.

Blogger Cataline Sergius February 18, 2016 3:09 PM  

The College of Cardinal has according to rumor been completely infiltrated by entryists.

Pope Benedict by all accounts was a man who could have really used a copy of SWJAL.

Blogger Dave February 18, 2016 3:12 PM  

The pope is just jealous that the decor in Trump Tower rivals the Vatican.

Blasphemy!

Blogger Michael O'Duibhir February 18, 2016 3:13 PM  

I'm a Catholic. "Pope" Francis is a Marxist. He, like Bernie Sanders, preaches class warfare. Anyone who takes an look at what the Catholic Church prior to Vatican II taught vs. what the Novus Ordo "Catholic" Church of Vatican II teaches must, if he's being objective, recognize that the two religions cannot possibly be the same. I do not believe that Francis is a valid pope (I'm also no fan of Trump, or any of the other republican candidates--or democrats, for that matter). So, it doesn't matter to me WHAT his take is on any subject. That said, because he carries the water for the Zionist global elites he most certainly can do harm in influencing those who are still naïve enough to swallow the Marxist propaganda.

Anonymous redsash February 18, 2016 3:15 PM  

To what does this man Francis think the "pearly gates" are attached?

No amount of practice delivers this level of stupidity. We have witnessed the results of two thousand years of following the doctrine of demons.

Anonymous Daniel H February 18, 2016 3:16 PM  

The walls held at Vienna and central Europe was spared the scourge of Islam. The walls didn't hold at Constantinople and south eastern Europe suffered the scourge of Islam for 500 years, and parts are still suffering from it. I say to Francis, respectfully, learn some history.

Anonymous Broken Arrow February 18, 2016 3:23 PM  

Regardless of his complete statement being misquoted by the press, unless you believe it is total fabrication his comment about the wall and his location on the border (of which there is plenty of photo evidence) was definitely a shot at Trump and anyone who agrees with the idea of closing the border to illegal immigration.

Anonymous LegallySpeaking February 18, 2016 3:24 PM  

To a man whose entire sovereign country (the Vatican) is surrounded by walls, that's a little rich.

I'd also like to see Vatican immigration policy. Also Argentina's (where Francis is from and where he was a bishop). And to see if Pope Francis in anyway sought to lessen their immigration restrictions. My guess is no.


Sigh. Every time I, as a catholic, think about Francis, I think about all those other bad times in Catholic Church history (e.g. the Borgias, the pornocracy, the Islamic invasions, the black death, the loss of the Holy Lands, etc.) and remember:

The Church survived all that. The Church can survive Francis.

Anonymous BGKB February 18, 2016 3:25 PM  

To what does this man Francis think the "pearly gates" are attached?

Perhaps a rope fence with NO CROSSING (cross free zones) signs placed every 50 feet.

Anonymous Stephen J. February 18, 2016 3:26 PM  

"'Pope' Francis is a Marxist. He, like Bernie Sanders, preaches class warfare."

Minor distinguo: Preaching on the moral responsibility of the rich to help the poor is merely Christian doctrine. Advocating that the State should take up the role, or radically increase its current role, of enforcing that responsibility through law is what makes a class-warfare Marxist.

To the best of my knowledge all His Holiness has ever advocated for, as His Holiness, is that both government and private charity could stand to increase, and that helping the poor is more important than doctrinal disputes or finding excuses to condemn others. That may be coherent with Marxism but it need not indicate conscious adherence to it.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan February 18, 2016 3:27 PM  

The word "only" is very important as was noted, but the man is an entryist and therefore subject to being booted.

Question, does one have to be a Swiss Guard to be an arms bearing Christian?

Blogger Dexter February 18, 2016 3:27 PM  

"Is the Pope Catholic?"

No longer a rhetorical question...

Blogger Dexter February 18, 2016 3:29 PM  

I'm a Catholic. "Pope" Francis is a Marxist.

I wish he'd at least give up Marxism for Lent.

Blogger Were-Puppy February 18, 2016 3:30 PM  

Dear Pope

Is there anything to indicate that this Pope is not just another Globalist?

Blogger Were-Puppy February 18, 2016 3:37 PM  

@37 redsash
To what does this man Francis think the "pearly gates" are attached?
---

ZING :P

OpenID b1bae96e-6447-11e3-b6bb-000f20980440 February 18, 2016 3:38 PM  

The pope went to the US-Mexico border and prayed for those dying while trying to make it to the US. He would not need to pray for those people if we had a wall and other measures in place that would prevent all but the most sophisticated from breaching our border.

While the Pope's comments might have been interpreted in a light most conducive to starting a fight with Trump, it is clear that he does not think Christian nations have a right to defend their borders, even from non-Christians.

Will Best

Blogger Mr.MantraMan February 18, 2016 3:41 PM  

Why don't they fix Mexico and points south, oh I know why no virtue signaling points. He needs a kick in the nads

Anonymous Bob February 18, 2016 3:42 PM  

"...both President and Pope".

That did make my day.

Blogger pyrrhus February 18, 2016 3:45 PM  

And as everyone is pointing out on Twitter, the Vatican is protected by a wall....

Anonymous Soga February 18, 2016 3:50 PM  

@41 doctrinal disputes

To be fair, these are important. If doctrine is not upheld and kept firm, doctrine will be distorted. "The Bible condemns homosexuality" and "The Bible affirms homosexuality" are two completely different, opposing positions on doctrine.

Saying doctrine disputes aren't important is how entryists, especially of the demonic kind, undermine institutions.

You could help the poor all you want, but then if you tell them it's OK and a good idea to poke each other in the poofter, you're not doing them a favor with God. That golden calf is not worth helping the poor over. Help the poor AND honor God instead.

Blogger John Wright February 18, 2016 3:51 PM  

With respect to Mr. Sevron when you say "They have no history of making pretend heroes of their enemies" you are not paying attention to this Pope.

He is my experience.

The first ten times I heard a quote from the press that made the Pope sound Leftist, or Marxist, or nutbuggy, I took the time and trouble to look up the original.

Each time, each and every single ever-lovin' time, the quote was a gross misquote, and the Pope was uttering a perfectly Christian gospel sentiment no different than any other Pope has said and taught throughout all time.

After the first ten times, I gave up.

The Catholics and other Christians who are convinced by what they read in the press about this Pope: SUCCKKEERRRRRRRRRRSSSSSSSSS!!!!

They are playing him up as one of them because he is a 'Hispanic' and not a white Pope like the last few. That is all.

His Holiness says "Feed the poor" and the press reports it as "Redistribute Wealth"

His Holiness says "We are the stewards of the Earth; stop aborting babies" and the press reports it as "Green Pope says Stop Global Warming"

And on and on and on.

Now, in all fairness, had I not taken the time and trouble to look up the original quotes, and at times gotten a friend to translate for me, I would never have believed the press would lie this much about a man who is not one of their own.

So unless you do as I did, you will not believe either.

But since the same newspaper that reported the Pope is Leftist said that I was a neonazi, at least I have some reason to know how much they lie.

We also did not hear what 'quote' the press fed to the Holy Father to get the response he got.

Here is my imaginary scenario:

"Your Holiness, Donald Trump says that America must expel all non-Aryans from America, and shoot Muslim babies in the gut,and dump their weeping, wee, tiny bodies into mass graves to be buried alive while their mothers, who are forced to watch, are raped by special marine rape squads! And then the blood of the babies should be used to mortar a wall between the United States and the negro nations! Do you think it is Christian thing for Donald Trump to say?'

The Pope answers in general terms that Christinity is about building bridges rather than walls, and adds a number of comments that are not reported, such as saying Mohammed is a false prophet, and that no one should allow his house to be flooded by enemy soldiers, etc.

The press then goes to Mr. Trump and asks him the follow, "Mr. The Donald the spic Pope says your dick is too small, and that you are going to hell. Would you care to respond?"

In my imaginary scenario, the press would have reported the exchange exactly as given above, would not they have?

The press is the enemy.

OpenID denektenorsk February 18, 2016 3:52 PM  

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2016/02/18/pope-prays-for-migrants-at-mexican-border/

If the Pope is so concerned with the downtrodden masses of humanity why not raid the piggy bank within the WALLED Vatican City? Lead by example your Holiness.

Anonymous DarthWheatley #2415 February 18, 2016 3:53 PM  

OT: Looks like Ruby's Matz adopted a very simple, non-SJW CoC. Does this count as a win?

https://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/46g5ri/seems_like_ruby_has_chosen_a_coc_based_on_the/

https://www.ruby-lang.org/en/conduct/

Blogger John Wright February 18, 2016 3:54 PM  

"..it is clear that he does not think Christian nations have a right to defend their borders, even from non-Christians"

Because that is what the press wants you to think he thinks.

Sucker.

If I am wrong, look it up. Quote me the quote.

I am from Missouri. Show me. I will gracefully admit wrong an cede the point if you can find me a quote where His Holiness said words to the effect that "Christian nations have a right to defend their borders, even from non-Christians"

Put up or shut up.

Blogger Casher O'Neill February 18, 2016 3:55 PM  

Has it occurred to anyone that a Mexican reporter ambushed the Pope with a question with which he hoped to enlist the Pope in the American-Mexican border dispute? Does anyone know the question the Pope was asked? (I haven't seen it.) The answer - very different from the headlines - combines a nebulous resort to basic principles of Christian brotherhood ("building bridges" and the rest of the bromides), with a conditional qualification stating explicitly that it depended on the veracity of an (unstated) set of claims others had been making to the Pope (Trump himself stated that he thought the Mexican government was lying to the Pope). The Pope - not the best at thinking on his feet in front of reporters - may have given what he though was the best and most neutral answer under the circumstances (he does after all have a lot more people listening to his message in Latin America than in the US).

Turning Trump and the Pope against each other would be a good way to foster conflict between religious social conservatives and nationalists (not to mention the shots religious conservatives have started taking against each other now). That is a perfect 4th Gen psyop.

Blogger Oakes Spalding February 18, 2016 4:04 PM  

You should stop defending the Pope, John Wright. I say this as a Catholic and as a fan and defender of you and your writings. With respect, it's making you look silly and undercutting your message. That the media is to blame every time the Pope pops off at altitude is absurd.

Blogger Chent February 18, 2016 4:05 PM  

As a devout Catholic (and a Latin American guy), please don't hate us because of the heretic Pope we have. He is not a Christian but a follower of the PC religion. I hope next Pope restores sanity. We have had worse Popes and we have recovered so there's room for hope.

"His political pronouncements can be safely ignored by conservative catholics, but with this language he is treading dangerously close to speaking ex cathedra. It is very foolish of him."

Agreed. The only duty as a Catholic to agree with the Pope is when He speaks ex cathedra (the last time He spoke this way was back in 1950). But Pope Francis LOOOOOVES to speak about politic issues.

With fellow Catholics, I used to make the joke that, when young, Pope Francis wanted to be somebody like George Clooney, a celebrity who speaks in favor of social justice but He was too ugly to become an actor so He became a priest.

I don't say this joke anymore since I have been told that Pope Francis is going to appear in a movie. In my prayer group, we always pray three Lord's Prayers for the intentions of the Pope. I guess His intentions are starring in a movie with Jennifer Lopez. :(

Blogger 5stonegames February 18, 2016 4:07 PM  

So a Hispanic Liberation Theologian Pope back immigrants especially other Hispanics over native populations.

Sounds more like water is wet than any great proclamation to me.

Blogger dienw February 18, 2016 4:15 PM  

The pagan, Roman-Babylonian "Church" has never forgotten the papal bull giving Spain all of the New World except Brazil which went to Portugal. It was a real poke in the eye with a ship's mast when John Cabot discovered the actual American continent and claimed it for God, England and France. In my opinion, this is why Rome is aiding the illegal migration of South Americans into the United States.

Anonymous A.B. Prosper February 18, 2016 4:15 PM  

The comment @59

So a Hispanic Liberation Theologian Pope back immigrants especially other Hispanics over native populations.

Sounds more like water is wet than any great proclamation to me.

Was me. I'd appreciate nuking the other one just so as I can use one consistent handle.

OpenID malcolmthecynic February 18, 2016 4:18 PM  

This response was a rhetorical grand slam, walking the fine line perfectly between respect for the Pope as the head of the Catholic Church and a strong rebuttal of his comments.

From a Catholic - well done, Mr. Trump.

Anonymous #8601 Jean Valjean February 18, 2016 4:19 PM  

The press do indeed lie with impunity. Hello RooshV. It is possible they lied about the Pope, too.

Blogger Student in Blue February 18, 2016 4:21 PM  

The press probably is playing the field here, pitting one against the other trying to get a scoop.

The thing, though, is that even if Francis is not saying the words that the press ascribes and he instead keeps saying good stuff... why is the press ascribing it to him? It's bizarre to think the press would just say nice things about what should be the the biggest opponent of the fallen world.

Blogger Mom February 18, 2016 4:23 PM  

I am an admirer of John C Wright and I can understand his defense of the pope. Still, his being at the border between Mexico and the "magic dirt" to pray for those who died trying to get illegally to said "magic dirt" smacks of grandstanding. It seems better counsel would have been to discourage people from risking their lives in the first place.

Blogger Skylark Thibedeau February 18, 2016 4:26 PM  

I wish Benedict would go to Avignon and set up the Holy See since Francis is the Anti-Pope in Rome.

Blogger JaimeInTexas February 18, 2016 4:29 PM  

Pearly Gates ... it is metaphorical. Or, earrings.

Anonymous Anonymous February 18, 2016 4:32 PM  

So the Pope has never read the description of Heaven in Revelation?

Weredragon

Blogger Jon M February 18, 2016 4:35 PM  

Hey Franky, what happened to, "Who am I to judge?" Only applicable to sodomy, is it?

Blogger Ilíon February 18, 2016 4:37 PM  

Will Best: "..it is clear that he does not think Christian nations have a right to defend their borders, even from non-Christians"

Sucker Wright: "Because that is what the press wants you to think he thinks.

Sucker.

If I am wrong, look it up. Quote me the quote.
"

While this isn't hisself, it *is* some very hightly placed bureaucrats of The One True Bureaucracy -- and it *does* deny that "Christian nations have a right to defend their borders, even from non-Christians" Who's the sucker?

Blogger Sevron February 18, 2016 4:41 PM  

Mr. Wright, you may be right about the first part (there is a first time for everything, perhaps the Left has been lying relentlessly about the Pope's positions), but that does not explain the second. To expand:

The Catholic Church has many PR organs, and its own publications. If they disagreed with the quote in detail or spirit, they could say so and that word would get out. To my knowledge, they never have. I pay attention to a pretty wide, non-Leftist range of news sources, and I have not read anywhere something like "Pope categorically denies mischaracterization in Times blah blah."

Furthermore, it's well and good to pray for those dying to illegally sneak in, but why is the Pope not openly telling them they should not be trying to illegally invade to begin with? Render unto Ceaser, and all that?

Blogger Tim February 18, 2016 4:45 PM  

Tell the Pope if he does not like walls to tear down the one all the way around Vatican City. Or someone is liable to start talking about motes and beams in eyes.......How many ISIS refuges has the Vatican taken in by the way?

Blogger JaimeInTexas February 18, 2016 4:46 PM  

I am unable to find any official Vatican take on the comment attributed to Pope Francis. At this stage I am assuming the quote is accurate and in context.

Anonymous Stephen J. February 18, 2016 4:47 PM  

@51: "To be fair, these are important. If doctrine is not upheld and kept firm, doctrine will be distorted. ...Saying doctrine disputes aren't important is how entryists, especially of the demonic kind, undermine institutions. ...Help the poor AND honor God instead."

Indeed. "Embrace the healing power of 'and'," as Instapundit's Glenn Reynolds likes to say. (Or as C.S. Lewis once said, "Asking whether 'faith' or 'good works' is more important strikes me as rather like asking which blade of a pair of scissors is more important.")

That said, it is one of the easiest theological errors out there to assume that when somebody says, "X may be more important than Y in this time and place," they mean, "Y is not important at all."

Blogger Achilles February 18, 2016 4:47 PM  

I'm a Catholic who wants to build a wall. Multiple wall with dog runs, barbed wire, moats with alligators, machine gun nests, and landmines. Guess I'm no longer Christian according to Francis. Good thing the Pope is named Benedict XVI.

Anonymous Crude February 18, 2016 4:50 PM  

I am unable to find any official Vatican take on the comment attributed to Pope Francis. At this stage I am assuming the quote is accurate and in context.

I think at this point the Vatican's reps are huddling, trying to figure whether to keep their heads down and hope this whole thing blows over, to fire back, or to 'clarify' aka kick up dust like mad to obfuscate.

Blogger frigger611 February 18, 2016 4:50 PM  

Ugh, I am a struggling Catholic myself, and things like this are precisely why. Might have to give it up.

Sister Lucia of the Fatima miracle specifically noted that Russia had been "spreading her error" throughout the globe. That error was Soviet socialism/communism.

For most of mankind's history (including Christ's time, the Roman Empire, the Holy Roman Empire, etc) up until the industrial revolution, a lot of "wealth" was gained by waging war, forcibly taking from another nation, enslavement, occupation, domination/subjugation, etc.

But the Industrial Revolution occurs, fossil fuels and steam power free up people from menial hand to mouth existence, and now wealth can actually be created and amassed. A middle class is born.

But the church's understanding of economics is still stuck in the middle ages it seems, and if it is the duty of the pope and the church to help alleviate poverty and suffering, then it is should be required of them to study things like modern economics as they apply to the modern world.

Adam Smith, Locke, Rothbard, Hayek, Rand et al would be good places to start.

We now have centuries of history to show us by example, this should not be a mystery anymore.

The USA is NOT a job fair for the rest of the world, nor is it a giant pot of gold that the rest of the nations can pilfer from.

The dead in Arlington fought for their families and for the principles upon which our nation was founded. The "leaders" of today want us to piss it all away. I would prefer that our borders be protected and that people who reside here actually appreciate our traditions and history. La Raza specifically does not. Why am I called upon to make it easy for them to conquer us?

I am seriously starting to consider Sede Vacantism

Blogger Booch Paradise February 18, 2016 4:53 PM  

I am from Missouri. Show me. I will gracefully admit wrong an cede the point if you can find me a quote where His Holiness said words to the effect that "Christian nations have a right to defend their borders, even from non-Christians"

Put up or shut up.


While the quote I have doesn't say that directly, it would be hard to not draw that conclusion. This is taken from his address to congress and is not edit, though I have no way of verifying the translation.

Our world is facing a refugee crisis of a magnitude not seen since the Second World War. This presents us with great challenges and many hard decisions. On this continent, too, thousands of persons are led to travel north in search of a better life for themselves and for their loved ones, in search of greater opportunities. Is this not what we want for our own children? (applause) We must not be taken aback by their numbers, but rather view them as persons, seeing their faces (scattered applause) and listening to their stories, trying to respond as best we can to their situation. To respond in a way which is always humane, just and fraternal. We need to avoid a common temptation nowadays: to discard whatever proves troublesome. Let us remember the Golden Rule (whoop, standing applause): “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you” (Mt 7:12).

Blogger YIH February 18, 2016 4:54 PM  

haus frau:
On that basis the pope just declared the majority of American Christians to be "not real Christians". Not well versed on public relations is he?
Also not Catholic, though there are schools of thought that Catholic is not Christian and vice-versa (i.e. non-Catholic == non-Christian).
There are those who consider the current ''pope'' as a false one and as such the papacy is still ''vacant''.
This current ''pope'' was inevitable, it was seen as a compromise between a 'third-world' pope and a 'traditional' (as in Italian, he is of Italian lineage) one.
We got an SJW ''pope'' who obviously doesn't know why a sovereign nation would have walls.

Anonymous Stephen J. February 18, 2016 4:55 PM  

@69: You may have overlooked the text in your linked article where it states that the other duty of a government, which cannot be ignored, is:

"...to secure one’s border and enforce the law for the sake of the common good. Sovereign nations have the right to enforce their laws and all persons must respect the legitimate exercise of this right: 'Political authorities, for the sake of the common good for which they are responsible may make the exercise of the right to immigrate subject to various juridical conditions, especially with regard to the immigrants' duties toward their country of adoption. Immigrants are obliged to respect with gratitude the material and spiritual heritage of the country that receives them, to obey its laws and to assist in carrying civic burdens.' Catholic Catechism, 2241."

I fail to see how that is a denial of the right of a nation to defend one's borders. If anything it is a clear acknowledgement of the nation's duty to do so.

Blogger tz February 18, 2016 4:56 PM  

"Pope Francis, Tear down this (the Vatican perimiter) wall!"
I knew he was a few lobes short, but I thought it was his single lung.

Blogger Rabbi B February 18, 2016 4:58 PM  

"I say only that this man is not Christian if he has said things like that.

Not Christian??!?? Well, for the love of G-d and all that is holy . . . someone should have informed Him . . .

"And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from G-d. It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal.

It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west. The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb . . .

Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life . . .

Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood."


(cf. Revelation 21-22).

Blogger Ilíon February 18, 2016 4:59 PM  

Sevron: "... but why is the Pope not openly telling them they should not be trying to illegally invade to begin with?"

Because the top bureaucrats throughout The One True Bureaucracy are leftists; they hate the West/Christendom, in general, and they hate America with a white-hot passion, in particular.

Consider, from United States Conference of Catholic Bishops -- Catholic Church's Position on Immigration Reform --

On the one hand, the document asserts -- and Mr Wright will latch onto this, while ignoting the contradiction -- "The second duty [of good government] is to secure one’s border and enforce the law for the sake of the common good. Sovereign nations have the right to enforce their laws and all persons must respect the legitimate exercise of this right: "

"The first duty [of good government] is to welcome the foreigner out of charity and respect for the human person. Persons have the right to immigrate and thus government must accommodate this right to the greatest extent possible, especially financially blessed nations:"

First, notice: not only does the USCCB assert the absurdity that "Persons have the right to immigrate" -- which is to say, in that clause alone, even without the explicit statement that "government must accommodate this [alleged] right to the greatest extent possible", the USCCB asserts that nations have a *duty* to allow foreigners to immigrate into their midst.

Second, notice that according to the USCCB, the duty of good government to "secure one’s border and enforce the law for the sake of the common good" takes second place to the alleged duty to allow foreigners to invade one territory.

How'd that work out for Spain?

Blogger tz February 18, 2016 5:00 PM  

@75 Video and the quotes from The Last Refuge

In other news, Glenn Beck said God killed Scalia as a warning - Vote Cruz or else!

Anonymous jz943 February 18, 2016 5:02 PM  

That is one dumb pope.

Anonymous Jerome Horowitz February 18, 2016 5:04 PM  

John Wright February 18, 2016 3:51 PM
..
Here is the video, with caption. I can't translate, but you can watch it for yourself...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3453193/Pope-says-Trump-not-Christian-views-plans-immigration.html

Blogger Ilíon February 18, 2016 5:07 PM  

Ah, I see that Stephen J also latched onto the one assertion of the USCCB that gives with the one hand, while totally that it takes away with the other.

Blogger tz February 18, 2016 5:10 PM  

Catholic News Agency's translation of the full interview

Blogger Young Heaving Bosoms of Confederacy February 18, 2016 5:11 PM  

Pope Beergoggles

Blogger Young Heaving Bosoms of Confederacy February 18, 2016 5:13 PM  

Thank God he said I was a politician because Aristotle defined the human person as 'animal politicus.' At least I am a human person. As to whether I am a pawn, well, maybe, I don't know. I'll leave that up to your judgment and that of the people. And then, a person who thinks only about building walls, wherever they may be, and not building bridges, is not Christian. This is not in the Gospel. As far as what you said about whether I would advise to vote or not to vote, I am not going to get involved in that. I say only that this man is not Christian if he has said things like that. We must see if he said things in that way and in this I give the benefit of the doubt.

Milquetoast.

Blogger Ilíon February 18, 2016 5:14 PM  

Catholic News Agency's translation of the full interview

So, basically, Francis is a passive-aggressive pussy?

Blogger Ilíon February 18, 2016 5:15 PM  

... not that Trump is much better, mind you.

Blogger Young Heaving Bosoms of Confederacy February 18, 2016 5:15 PM  

OT: How to fake blockquotes in the comments to this blog:

Wrap your text in an I tag followed by an EM tag. The relevant CSS selector is `i > em`.

Blogger Young Heaving Bosoms of Confederacy February 18, 2016 5:18 PM  

I say only that this man is not Christian if he has said things like that.

This is where the Pope makes a critical, sinful, and revealing error. The oft-misused "judge not" scripture is definitely in play here.

Anonymous joe doakes February 18, 2016 5:20 PM  

"You believe in protecting your nation from invaders. You aren't a good Christian."

"I'm not running for Good Christian, that's your job. I'm running for President and protecting the nation from invaders IS the President's job."

Nothing to do with Catholicism, but about failure to understand the difference between personal faith and political job.

Blogger tz February 18, 2016 5:21 PM  

The state of Washington passed a Trans-friendly "use whichever bathroom you want" law. In Seattle, a man decided to do just that..
I'm beginning to feel like Lot, is Mt Ranier rumbling yet?

Blogger Young Heaving Bosoms of Confederacy February 18, 2016 5:21 PM  

"This man who affirms that Jesus is Lord ... he has political positions I disagree with? Not a Christian."

Fuck. You.

Blogger Young Heaving Bosoms of Confederacy February 18, 2016 5:22 PM  

I wouldn't say that to his face, though, because he might accept.

OpenID rufusdog February 18, 2016 5:24 PM  

Sheez, just watching the constant spinning conservative Catholics do for this current Pope is dizzying.

I doubt Trump is a Christian, vague Theist, probably, but a follower of Christ and his teachings, no, just way too much out there to think that true.

Avid supporter of abortion for most of his adult life, “thrilled” his daughter converted to Judaism, “two Corinthians”, almost never gathers together with fellow believers…

Maybe what CSL would term a “bad Christian”, I’m not trying to judge the man’s heart, and maybe he would good for Christians in the political sense. But the Pope is probably right, Trump probably isn’t a Christian, but I don’t think “walls” have anything to do with it.

Blogger Sevron February 18, 2016 5:30 PM  

Reading the translation, it appears the current characterization is correct.

Blogger Student in Blue February 18, 2016 5:35 PM  

But the Pope is probably right, Trump probably isn’t a Christian, but I don’t think “walls” have anything to do with it.

Absolutely, walls have nothing to do with it.

In addition, a ton of "Christians" nowadays are nothing but essentially vague Theists, so it's not like Trump's alone in his misconception.

Blogger Young Heaving Bosoms of Confederacy February 18, 2016 5:36 PM  

Overheard at MPCdot.com:

"Friar Cuck"

Blogger AureliusMoner February 18, 2016 5:39 PM  

Speaking as a Catholic, and setting aside all debate about recent popes prior to Francis, the fact is that Francis himself is not, and could not be, the pope. At the First Vatican Council, which proclaimed papal infallibility, the bishops in attendance naturally had many concerns about such a controversial doctrine. The bishops of the USA were especially concerned, knowing that answering the attacks of Protestants would be important in their territories.

Therefore, John-Baptist Purcell, Archbishop of Cincinnati, related the answer given to a cardinal, who asked what would happen in the case that a pope fell into heresy. It was answered, that this had never happened; yet, if it were to happen, the pope would be automatically deposed, because a public heretic is not even a member of the Church, much less the head of the Church.

The truth of this doctrine was made brilliantly clear by St. Robert Bellarmine; during the Protestant crisis, there was concern over what would happen if a Protestant somehow got elected as pope. St. Robert brilliantly exposited the Patristic teaching, refuting some errors in the opinions of Cajetan and other speculative theologians on the question. Pope Leo XIII affirmed this truth in Satis Cognitum, as did Pius XII in Mystici Corporis. It is the settled teaching of the Church. Here is some of what he wrote on the matter:

"The fourth opinion [on heretical 'popes'] is that of Cajetan, for whom (de auctor. papae et con., cap. 20 et 21) the manifestly heretical Pope is not “ipso facto” deposed, but can and must be deposed by the Church. To my judgment, this opinion cannot be defended. For, in the first place, it is proven with arguments from authority and from reason that the manifest heretic is “ipso facto” deposed. [Here he gives the arguments; interested persons can google some of the text above, and find the context online.]

"...This principle [that even popes, if they become heretics, are automatically deposed even without any official sentence of the Church] is most certain. The non-Christian cannot in any way be Pope, as Cajetan himself admits (ib. c. 26). The reason for this is that he cannot be head of what he is not a member; now he who is not a Christian is not a member of the Church, and a manifest heretic is not a Christian, as is clearly taught by St. Cyprian (lib. 4, epist. 2), St. Athanasius (Scr. 2 cont. Arian.), St. Augustine (lib. de great. Christ. cap. 20), St. Jerome (contra Lucifer.) and others; therefore the manifest heretic cannot be Pope."

- See more at: http://www.cmri.org/02-bellarmine-roman-pontiff.html#sthash.g5Zq5cKT.dpuf

Blogger Young Heaving Bosoms of Confederacy February 18, 2016 5:39 PM  

rufusdog wrote:Avid supporter of abortion for most of his adult life, “thrilled” his daughter converted to Judaism, “two Corinthians”, almost never gathers together with fellow believers…



What part of this has anything to do with whether a man proclaims that Jesus is Lord?

Anonymous John Steed February 18, 2016 5:43 PM  

I was just listening on the car radio coming over and heard a collarded spin doctor call Trump a lair about WNDs in Iraq. I remember what Colin Powell paraded in front of tv cams going on and on about nukes. Yet this theo-cuck yammered on and on about chemical weapons. Who`s the LIER?

Blogger Student in Blue February 18, 2016 5:47 PM  

@Young Heaving Bosoms of Confederacy
What part of this has anything to do with whether a man proclaims that Jesus is Lord?

If Jesus is truly one's Lord then you'd want to do His wishes. Abortion -> conflicts with "be fruitful and multiply" amongst other things, being thrilled when someone converts to a religion you know is incorrect because they do not recognize Jesus as Messiah which conflicts with "go and make disciples of all nations", whereas the last two aren't mortal sins by any sort but more of evidence that he doesn't really have that much learning of the Holy Word.

It's not ironclad proof, and really nothing is because we do not know the heart of men. It's good enough for a pretty solid educated guess however.

Anonymous Crude February 18, 2016 5:49 PM  

I'm an avid Trump supporter. Insinuating that Trump is not a Christian is a low blow, but it would be fair game... if His Holiness over there had managed to throw that glove down at anyone else in the past. Obama gets a pass and praise, even atheists get some praise, but he decides to play the 'Not a Christian' game with Trump? Screw that.

Blogger Durandel Almiras February 18, 2016 5:51 PM  

As a Catholic who is trad/conservative, I refuse to keep up with the verbal acrobatics that my fellow orthodox Catholics do to defend our Pope. I greatly respect Mr. Wright both as an author and at his knowledge of the faith, but my own research seems at odds with his. The Left definitely spins the headlines, and some of the translations are terrible and definitely biased, but there have been good translations made and it is clear our Pope has a leftist leaning interpretation of the faith. He makes far too many statements that are ambiguous and thus rife for misinterpretation unlike his recent predecessors. Why use couched language on clear doctrine? Why is there no attempt to clarify media interpretations and spin? Why does he keep saying things that can be used by the Left?

This Pope is divisive. He caters to the Leftist zeitgeist of the West and South America. I don't doubt that he is a Catholic Christian, but do I question how he believes the faith should be applied to issues in life. Everytime he speaks about the faith applied, it sounds oddly Leftist rather than Catholic.

Also, it's been known for a while that the Church has a cohort of bishops, cardinals, etc. who are Modernists and Marxists. No reason he can't be one of them. The Church will survive this as it has other terrible Popes.

Also, I don't have to listen to this guy so long as what he says is not binding to the faith.

I don't wish or pray for ill on my Pope, but I do pray that he retires soon so that leadership can go to someone better equipped.

Blogger weka February 18, 2016 5:55 PM  

John Wright, I suggest you go read mundabor. He is a papist and despises this pope. He ain't speakibg ex cathedra. Therefore he is fair game to All: you needing eyeballs to find all bugs and errors.

None of us are perfect.

And he was played like a violin by the Mexican elite. Trump called him on that -- for if Trip does not know the elite he knows enough coyotes (bringing I illegal construction and cleaning people) to pick their stench

Blogger weka February 18, 2016 5:55 PM  

Speaking... Phone

Anonymous The Kulak February 18, 2016 5:55 PM  

This is why when I came to the point of no longer recognizing Churchianity and Protestantism as the Church that Jesus Christ established through Apostolic succession, I chose Constantinople over Rome. While there have no doubt been bad patriarchs at least Orthodoxy by giving the canonical churches autocephaly and insisting all matters of doctrine must be settled in conciliar fashion (the last recognized Ecumenical council was in 787, and many Russians, Serbs and Greeks insist that this was the final one and any future proclaimed ecumenical council will be the work of Anti-christ) limits the damage any heretical or just plain incompetent hierarch could do.

https://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2016/01/the-future-pan-orthodox-council-to-be-or-not-to-be
First Things, at times, cannot overcome their Cold War legacy/bias, recognize facts (like that the present Patriarch of the non-canonical Ukrainian church broke away only after he was disappointed over not being chosen to lead the Moscow Patriarchate with the election of Patriarch Alexus instead), or understand why the Pope has chosen to meet with Kirill, who admittedly has his own problems. If First Things were out there condemning Banderism, the cult of the UPA mass murderers of Poles, and violent as well as bureaucratic attacks on the Moscow Patriarchate churches in Ukraine, then they'd have more credibility with me on their criticisms of the MosPat, which certainly deserves some and is running the risk of turning symphonia as it was understood in the East into excessive identification with the Kremlin's goals and wishes. But the MosPat has also called for an end to the bloodshed in Ukraine, peace talks without preconditions, and condemned the war as fratricidal (which all greater Galicia master race pretensions aside, it is, since genetically Ukrainians are mostly one people with a common origin, the only dispute is over the nature of what happened to 'Kievan Rus' through the centuries of Polish/Lithuanian and later Hapsburg rule when the ancestors of present day Ukrainians simply called themselves 'Rus' or 'Kazaki' not 'Ukrainians').

Blogger Durandel Almiras February 18, 2016 5:57 PM  

And walls are perfectly Catholic, as is personal defense and the defense of our fellow brothers and sisters in the faith. Expulsion would be more charitable than killing, which is why it had been done before without Popes getting their cassocks in a twist. I do think Francis needs to revisit the writings of his predecessors.

The Church existed before 1960.

Blogger Nick S February 18, 2016 5:58 PM  

"A person who thinks only about building walls"

Slayers of strawmen impress simpletons.

Blogger Neanderserk February 18, 2016 6:16 PM  

Trump is MT. Honor comes naturally to him.

Anonymous Leonidas February 18, 2016 6:19 PM  

The Catholics and other Christians who are convinced by what they read in the press about this Pope: SUCCKKEERRRRRRRRRRSSSSSSSSS!!!!

Look at every bit of reporting the press does on topics that you thoroughly understand: technology, GamerGame, Sad/Rabid Puppies, etc. And then realize that the reporting they do on every other topic is just as bad - either erroneous, full of outright lies, or both.

Every other topic.

Anonymous tublecane February 18, 2016 6:22 PM  

I'm not Catholic, but I was raised and confirmed as one. Let me tell you, there've been crowds of crappy popes, and some evil ones. This one isn't the worst, despite being a Marxist. Bear in mind, the Church is long, life is short.

Anonymous Rolf February 18, 2016 6:30 PM  

Well.... I do have a Pope Leo in my book about the founding of the Order of the Monks of St Possenti... Maybe I ought to toss in a line about his fabulous hair and recent status as a widower.....

Anonymous johnc February 18, 2016 6:32 PM  

Come on now, it is time that we rise up and demand that the guy resign.

Maybe he will, maybe he won't, but it's about sending a message. We need to start being aggressive.

Sign the petition, and then send it to all of your friends.

Blogger The Kurgan February 18, 2016 6:34 PM  

Mr. Wright,
I respect you greatly, however I cannot do the same with regard to the Pope. He is at best, wanting in the extreme with regard to the simplest theological matters. In the Philippines, to the question :"why do children suffer so much" his answer was that there is almost no answer to such a question.
I saw the video myself and my Spanish is sufficient to verify the English translation as accurate.
I can dig up the link if you wish.
This is not a good Pope.

Blogger Durandel Almiras February 18, 2016 6:36 PM  

@114 - I think you mean, "every topic". Mike Cernovich mentioned the Gell-Mann Effect recently, a term I think the late Michael Creighton came up with in one of his essays.

Journalists suck as a general rule. And SJW journalists are greater in all of the typical negatives, particularly in laziness and pursuing message over truth.

Still, The Vatican has it's own website and news arm to publish it right, and they can easily exert power over Catholic agencies that do news reporting. It's not the Pope only has a blog to get the correct story out there.

Blogger tz February 18, 2016 6:37 PM  

Another perspective

Blogger Casher O'Neill February 18, 2016 6:43 PM  

Given that it is an old principle of counter-propaganda that it is ineffective to point out to people that they are being manipulated by psyops, this is probably pointless, but...

The salient point of this "controversy" is not the bromides about building bridges that the Pope spoke in response to the question he was asked. Any public figure when asked such a question should give a similarly nebulous response, since they do not know if the premises of the question are true. The salient point is the question itself:

On the other side of the border, there is a very tough electoral battle. One of the candidates for the White House, Republican Donald Trump, in an interview recently said that you are a political man and he even said that you are a pawn, an instrument of the Mexican government for migration politics. Trump said that if he’s elected, he wants to build 2,500 kilometers of wall along the border. He wants to deport 11 million illegal immigrants, separating families, etcetera. I would like to ask you, what do you think of these accusations against you and if a North American Catholic can vote for a person like this?

The Reuters reporter, through the question, created the impression of a prior attack by Trump against the Pope and asked for the Pope's response to the fabricated attack. The Pope, for the most part, skirted this attack. Then through a vague and misleading article and a fraudulent headline, the reporter caused a media war between Catholics and Catholics, between Catholics and Protestants, between religious social conservatives and nationalists. He has soured the relationship between one of the foundational institutions of the West and those who want to preserve the West. The Enemy has won a great victory through the clever use of psyops but all you clever strategists and tacticians of 4th gen war missed that. Go back to reading Lind's book, though, so that our circular firing squad will know how to use proper light infantry tactics.

Vox: If you have any Vile Faceless Minions free, it would be best to direct their efforts in the direction of the reporter, Philip Pullella. "Where the offense is, there let the great ax fall"

Blogger Casher O'Neill February 18, 2016 6:53 PM  

Also, can anyone familiar with Argentinian Spanish and Argentinian-Italian culture comment on the phrase "not christian"? I'm sure Vox can attest to the fact that straight-up Italians do not mean something is literally a sin when they say "che peccato!"

Anonymous Bobby Farr February 18, 2016 7:19 PM  

In the context of the US, conservatism is Protestantism. This will only help Trump in the upcoming, WASP dominated southern primaries.

Anonymous Credo in Unum Deum February 18, 2016 7:23 PM  

If the Pope wants to say: "God's mercy trumps his justice..." Fine. Roma locuta est. Causa finita est. "Rome has spoken. The matter is settled."

But when the Pope says "A true reading of the quran is peaceful..." or something else that has nothing to do with Faith or Morals, then I'm going to speak up and argue against him.

Blogger clk February 18, 2016 8:03 PM  

So JCW started defending the Pope but seems to have backed away .. although I bet its to actually get the facts to prove his point .. but I guess since none else is really stepping up to defend the Pope while JCW is getting the facts I will have to do ..

1. First - Francis is the Pope ... it is his right and in fact his duty as holder of the keys, successor to Peter to protect and advocate for the correct interpretation for Christ's teachings on this earth... remember in our eyes (Catholics - all 1.2 billion of us) there is a special meaning to what the Pope stands for and his authority. I am not saying however that he is speaking in this manner under the power on Papal Infallibility ... because he certainly is not in this case... this is really his opinion.. but its an opinion well grounded in catholic teachings.

2. As I have said here many times in the past .. much of what you people like to call liberal or social justice has their basis in Catholic teachings -- these teaching predate the terms conservative and liberal. The teachings of Christ are both conservative and liberal. Read the CCC Chap 2 and tell me what you don't agree with... What is contained in the CCC are the official teachings of the the Church...

3. Some of the things that Trump has said are not consistent with Catholic teachings on social justice in the CCC .. but to be fair, there are some elements of catholic social justice that conflict with other areas of catholic teachings -- that is not really a problem or invalidation as much as is a statement of the complexity of modern life.

The way that Trump replied is very Trump like but I think a bit rough. Since a few of his people do read this blog ... over the next few days he will need to flesh out this answer...

(1) The way to view this is that Catholic teachings do support the right of governments to make laws, and we as Catholics are directed to follow the legal laws of the country that do not violate the laws of our morals.
(2) The US has laws regarding immigration that allow for immigration for economic reasons as well as refugees.. and we provide many ways for people to enter the country legally.
(3) An immigrant by definition is someone who enters the country legally. Now people who just sneak across the boarder, or overstay a legal entry etc are not immigrants... they are breaking the law.
(4) Allowing illegal immigration to continue is actually contrary to Catholic teachings -- these "illegals" that enter the country are undocumented, they are often taken advantage of and do not get the help we would like to give them.
(5) We are very generous nation and we do care for the poor, sick, etc (59% of the US annual budget goes to social programs - social security, medical, safety net programs, education, food support) ..but we cant help them with if we don't know who they are and where they are..
(6) this is why the only Christian thing to do is to have a immigration system that allows people to legally enter the country.

There is nothing inconsistent with having a legal immigration program and catholic teachings on social justice.


Blogger dienw February 18, 2016 8:07 PM  

Not to put too fine of a point on it:
The reason the Vatican has been with their image Obama, importing Mexicans into America, is because these peons have been trained for centuries to submit to feudal control of the Padres. They will obey on penalty of hell whatever the Vatican orders them to do.
For those who are caught up in the Jew Levin and Vatican Hannity "Judeo Christian" propaganda, America has only been PROTESTANT CHRISTIAN as it was founded by Protestant Pilgrims. The Vatican loathes Christian Protestants, and if you ever get a Padre to speak what the Vatican really believes, it is simple that every Protestant is a heretic and going to hell, and if the Vatican could get away with it today, it would burn you at the stake again.

Blogger dienw February 18, 2016 8:13 PM  

O.T.: The Bundys have been arrested for mysterious new charges.
Same source: quote of US Attorney Daniel G. Bogden:
The indictment released on Wednesday said the eldest Bundy was the leader of the movement to extort the federal government into returning his cattle.

Anonymous Alice De Goon February 18, 2016 8:24 PM  

Every SJW I know is gushing over this Pope. Personally, I think he's a true believer in Progressivism, adopting more humble habits, but promoting Leftist boilerplate as well. He reminds me of Bernie Sanders -somewhat out of touch with reality, but thinking if he can just pass out enough Werthers Original Candy, (or cajole enough bureaucrats and taxpayers into doing so,) then the whole world's problems will be fixed.

Blogger ray February 18, 2016 8:24 PM  

I grew up in Catholic church/school. Best years of my life, partly due to that local church and its lay leaders. In those years (Cenozoic) there were two catholic churches in the WC shipyard town -- they were the most stabilizing and civilizing influences in the area. Best schools too. This was back when men still had jobs and (usually) led their families. Make that Early Cenozoic.

That was pre-Vat 2, so, a different church not only in doctrine, but in lay structure, with strong male-only societies or groups dominant . . . Latin Mass, no altar girls, homos around but kept in check.


Despite its flaws of idolatry (Marian worship oops I mean devotion) and man-made ritual, the men and boys that constituted the heart of that church generally were its glue. Its men were better than the secular average and often, much better.

It's possible that Christ allowed Catholicism's fatal flaws temporarily, due to worth and need in requisite areas and persons. Catholics, via their church, have gotten stomped lately; I empathize, having fond memories, but popes do not have Christ's authority on Earth. So the deception really starts at the root. In recent years -- JP 2 was a dedicated and open mariolatrist, and succeeding popes have been indefensible in various modernist areas. Culminating in the current Marxist, feminist, Gaian, globalist pope, who seems not a victim of the media, but a member of it.

Blogger LP9 Rin Integra S.I.G. Burnin' Up, Dune soaked, 80 svedka - The Lord overrides all! February 18, 2016 8:37 PM  

Something's amiss, something else is wrong in this situation.

Anonymous johnc February 18, 2016 8:41 PM  

@clk - It is more plain to say that the Catholic position is that immigration is only permissible if the circumstances are in accord with the common good, which is a prudential matter indeed but one that could be judged quite clearly in the US and Europe today by anyone who has half a brain (which seems to rule out Pope Francis). And even then, the Church proposes pretty strict requirements on the immigrant to respect the land in which he is a guest.

And this pope is a complete and unmitigated trainwreck, to put it diplomatically. And that's assuming he really is the pope. This whole trip to Mexico was a political stunt against the US, and all of his trips are political stunts. The guy is a fraud. He seems to care not a twit that he has the adulation of nearly all the Church's enemies. And meanwhile he crushes faithful Catholics, and insults and ridicules them on a regular basis. Those who don't have their heads buried know what's going on.

He needs to go.

Blogger Gaiseric February 18, 2016 8:44 PM  

It means the sane thing in castellano argentino that it does in English.

Blogger Gaiseric February 18, 2016 8:46 PM  

It means the sane thing in castellano argentino that it does in English.

Blogger LP9 Rin Integra S.I.G. Burnin' Up, Dune soaked, 80 svedka - The Lord overrides all! February 18, 2016 8:47 PM  

127 we are not allowed to have anything - whatever it is, we are not going to be permitted to attain it unless the Lord - I dont know.

I require the RCC open up their bookkeeping, banking details and stop asking for money.

"VATICAN SURROUNDED BY WALLS...

Has most restrictive immigration, citizenship policies of any nation in world..."

Questioning Trump's faith was predictable as Trump is not RCC. Meanwhile Hillary is surrounding by unpretties ill looking boomers, Jeb is dropping out, Rubio and Cruz need to distance themselves from questionable GlennBeck.

And yeah, sure all wonderfullll people but its an election season, interesting times!

Back to the topic: Vatican open your bank records!

Blogger Cellar Mouse February 18, 2016 8:48 PM  

in offering to eliminate walls, has the Pope offered a solution to Gitmo here?

Blogger ray February 18, 2016 8:49 PM  

#95 now serving #95


Stick around, the whole necklace is on standby. Meanwhile the Women's Room in Seattle continues to rumble. :O)

I'd like to see the Trumpling make that man VP, just on GP.

He faked to the Left/He faked to the Right/Snatched the purse from her hand/"Someone stop me!" he cried as he faded from sight/Won't nobody help a Naked Man?

Blogger darrenl February 18, 2016 8:52 PM  

I would recommend caution when reading anything from the press regarding this Pope (or any Pope for that matter) and reading the full text of the interview. The press tend to insert meanings to suit current social and political trends (surprise!!). This is the same press who took "...who am I to judge..." as implicit support of everything from SSM to a free university education with every Happy Meal.

Here's the full question and answer. Form your own opinion...sure...but don't let any media source do it for you:

"Phil Pullella, Reuters: Today, you spoke very eloquently about the problems of immigration. On the other side of the border, there is a very tough electoral battle. One of the candidates for the White House, Republican Donald Trump, in an interview recently said that you are a political man and he even said that you are a pawn, an instrument of the Mexican government for migration politics. Trump said that if he’s elected, he wants to build 2,500 kilometers of wall along the border. He wants to deport 11 million illegal immigrants, separating families, etcetera. I would like to ask you, what do you think of these accusations against you and if a North American Catholic can vote for a person like this?

Pope Francis: Thank God he said I was a politician because Aristotle defined the human person as 'animal politicus.' At least I am a human person. As to whether I am a pawn, well, maybe, I don't know. I'll leave that up to your judgment and that of the people. And then, a person who thinks only about building walls, wherever they may be, and not building bridges, is not Christian. This is not in the Gospel. As far as what you said about whether I would advise to vote or not to vote, I am not going to get involved in that. I say only that this man is not Christian if he has said things like that. We must see if he said things in that way and in this I give the benefit of the doubt."

Blogger LP9 Rin Integra S.I.G. Burnin' Up, Dune soaked, 80 svedka - The Lord overrides all! February 18, 2016 8:52 PM  

Where is the investigations to help Scalia?

Something is awry, distractions; Vatican probably didn't like Trump's 9-11 comments.

What a year! 2016 is the year to toss our whats not needed and keep what is important.

Whatever, open those book$ or reconsider Sir Pope. I'm pretty in my poverty and the RCC doesn't care and denied me help! Beautiful in austerity!

Blogger Jeffrey Quick February 18, 2016 8:53 PM  

The Trump business wasn’t even the most offensive thing from this particular trip. That honor was reserved for his bit about Zika and birth control — which I’ve read the transcript of, so I didn’t need it Popesplained by Al Kresta. The thing that made my afternoon? Spacebunny on Twitter, defending Catholic doctrine against the Pope with a vigor I wish I’d see from an actual Catholic.

It grieves me when the Pope pops off. Yes, Mr. Wright, the press is out to get him. But why can’t he speak (or not speak) in a way that even the MSM can understand? Fact: this is a bad Pope. Last two times, we got a better Pope than we deserved. This time, we got exactly the Pope we deserve. This too will pass…and faster if Catholics do what it takes to deserve better.

Blogger LP9 Rin Integra S.I.G. Burnin' Up, Dune soaked, 80 svedka - The Lord overrides all! February 18, 2016 8:56 PM  

136 The RCC wants to know if they are correct in believing Trump is both Christian and corporatist.

The Water is clear with all these other awful candidates. Leadership is awry, something else will be revealed soon, like the Friday late day news dump.

Blogger Jeffrey Quick February 18, 2016 8:58 PM  

@103:
"What part of this has anything to do with whether a man proclaims that Jesus is Lord?”

Matt. 7:21

Blogger praetorian February 18, 2016 9:02 PM  

The hilarious thing here is, if the Puke's don't fold and nominate someone to the bench before the election, then Le Pope is going to bat for Abortion for All, Forever.

Blogger Zorro February 18, 2016 9:15 PM  

Ahem.

What about the walls of Vienna?!

You deranged little Marxist poultry-headed halfwit?

Blogger Neanderserk February 18, 2016 9:16 PM  

"But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, 6And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. 8But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ."

Papa, papa! How great thy robes!

The Catholics follow the Oral Torah, er, I mean, Apostolic Tradition.

One cannot simply read the Torah/New Testament. One must ask a rabbi(t)/priest.

Blogger clk February 18, 2016 9:20 PM  

@120 -"And this pope is a complete and unmitigated trainwreck, to put it diplomatically"

I am not sure that's a fair criticism and I would ask for examples supporting this trainwreck because I dont see it at all...

I know personally I loved John Paul II and I think he was a great Pope so any that would follow him in my mind would be at a disadvantage. Catholics believe the Pope is selected with the help of the Holy Spirit (although mans free will often gets in the way -- I think 1032)... ... We often get the Pope that we need ...even when we don't know what we need ... for example when there was time for a conversion in Poland, we got John Paul -- no other Pope could have help free Poland and eventually end the Soviet Union. Now attention moves to South America and we got Francis.. I would prefer to try and understand why God has chosen this man at this time.. maybe it was to do with Cuba.. or maybe it was due to the large amount of Hispanics in the US.. I dont know... but I am not worried.

Anonymous Malwyn's apprentice February 18, 2016 9:27 PM  

@66. Skylark Thibedeau
I wish Benedict would go to Avignon and set up the Holy See since Francis is the Anti-Pope in Rome.

I've been quite suspicious about Benedict's "retirement" since it was announced. We went from a pope who was focused on doctrine to a pope who's focused on the popular "causes" like global warming, immigration, etc.

Makes me wonder what the Vatican establishment has on God's Rottweiler ...

Blogger LP9 Rin Integra S.I.G. Burnin' Up, Dune soaked, 80 svedka - The Lord overrides all! February 18, 2016 9:31 PM  

It's my last comment as I look to the men for leadership regarding theological matters or issues within the church. Why is the pope always floating with globalism and not denouncing occultism?Here is to God reaching the pope for better thinking or maybe I'm so wrong after all!

Blogger dfordoom February 18, 2016 9:52 PM  

@ Durandel Almiras

The Church will survive this as it has other terrible Popes.

I'm not so sure. This is more than just a Pope who turns out to be a poor choice for the office. It wasn't just a terrible mistake by the College of Cardinals. They elected him knowing full well what sort of Pope he'd be. He was exactly what he wanted.

The problem is not one bad Pope. It's a Church riddled with marxists, modernists and secularists. The rot goes all the way though. The next Pope is likely to be very similar to this one, only more so. Remember how entryism works. The College of Cardinals got away with this one so next time they'll double down.

Pope Benedict's mistake was that he didn't ruthlessly purge the hierarchy of marxists, modernists and secularists.

The most likely long-term scenario is that the Church will split. The traditionalists might end up with a large proportion of the true Catholics but the SJW faction will end up with all the money, power and influence.

Blogger Casher O'Neill February 18, 2016 9:58 PM  

The response of fellow Christians and lovers of the West to this whole incident reminds me of a letter Tolkein wrote about the time he abd CSL met Roy Campbell, who fought in the Spanish Civil War. (Letter 83)
C.S.L's reactions were odd. Nothing is a greater tribute to Red propaganda than the fact that he (who knows they are in all other subjects liars and traducers) believes all that is said against Franco, and nothing that is said for him. Even Churchill's open speech in Parliament left him unshaken. But hatred of our church is after all the only final foundation of the C of E - so deep laid that it remains even when all the superstructure seems removed.

OpenID b1bae96e-6447-11e3-b6bb-000f20980440 February 18, 2016 9:59 PM  

Whether or not he is pope is business for the Catholics alone. However, he is not a naïve old man. And the Pope is absolutely a politician otherwise he wouldn't have been elected pope. The pope knows these reporters are snakes, and he has his own platforms to convey his ideas in pure form. He elects this manner in which to communicate and is responsible for the consequences of doing so. To assert otherwise is to deny him agency. And that isn't just true of the pope. That is true of everybody after their first blindside by the media.

Here is the interesting thing about the Pope's response. He could have deflected any number of ways but he chose the way he did. He also answered one of the two questions posed him without evading. But most importantly, the shot he fired across Trump's bow was entirely unnecessary in order to answer the either of the reporter's questions. He was intentionally sending Trump a message with this.

Will Best

Blogger Jamie-R February 18, 2016 9:59 PM  

As I wrote on Twitter:

Jesus didn't come to have power over others but to serve. Why he spoke to the meek/powerless, didn't team up with Caesar. So...Pope +1
And why - as Robert Kaplan wrote in Warrior Politics - leadership of world power (nations) requires a pagan ethos - power over others.
Civilization can repress barbarism but can't seem to eradicate it. Disregard of its history, means delusions for nation-state futures.
Jesus had great message for men, let go of power over others, it's ugly no one wins, & counter-culture challenge with serving/sacrifice.
Running nation-state is the ugly realm of power over others. Throwing shit & having shit thrown at you. So pagan ethos. So...Trump +1.
Folks call Francis the commie Pope & makes me giggle. But what he's reminded Catholics about is that they are here to comfort/save powerless.
His weakness is too willing to speak to powerless through charlatans that speak for them now.

Anonymous johnc February 18, 2016 10:03 PM  

@clk - You don't see the trainwreck? Are your eyes closed? This pope is almost an open heretic.

And this idea that some of you have that the media is getting the best of him, are you serious? I know the guy has a low IQ but it's pretty insulting to say that he can't figure out the media. If you look closely, you'll see that he's actually using the media precisely to get a message out. Why does he keep going back to Scalfari for these off-the-record interviews? And then he never corrects any of the scandalous statements Scalfari attributes to the pope.

First, this is not just "the pope". It's a whole cabal of evil people that have been in the Vatican for decades, and he is one with them. They finally got their guy. Benedict didn't resign because he was bored, folks.

Second, God didn't choose this man. The cardinals did. And a lot of them are awful people and even plain, open heretics, and many of the rest are naive half-wits.

Third, read about Fatima. It was said that the corruption would go "all the way to the top". If this isn't it, I don't know what is.

Seriously, how much worse can it get for the Church until people wake up?

Anonymous Frank Luke February 18, 2016 10:08 PM  

@144

Catholics believe the Pope is selected with the help of the Holy Spirit (although mans free will often gets in the way -- I think 1032)... ... We often get the Pope that we need ...even when we don't know what we need

In the Assemblies of God, we've had the same thing happen. One of my seminary professors told us how the body elected G. Raymond Carlson in 1985. My professor had not supported Carlson, he wanted a younger, more dynamic man.

"However, the Spirit knew better than I. In the middle of his term, the Swaggart and Baker scandals broke. Carlson handled the matter in a way that the man I had supported could not have. We needed Carlson's experience and leadership. I was wrong."

Carlson also led the Assemblies in our most fruitful time.

Blogger Nick S February 18, 2016 10:16 PM  

But what he's reminded Catholics about is that they are here to comfort/save powerless.

Not all Catholics agree with you.

Anonymous cincinnatus February 18, 2016 10:20 PM  

The problem is not one bad Pope. It's a Church riddled with marxists, modernists and secularists.

@dfordoom
The official Catholic Church's structures were quite obviously subverted in the lead-up to Vatican II. It is well known by now that there were definite shenanigans in the 1958 conclave.

I mean, come on... Thomas Cranmer, the writer of the Book of Common Prayer, put out the most vehement polemics against the Catholic Mass, and then the putatively Catholic Paul VI decides to... ape Thomas Cranmer and turn the Mass into an Anglican-style service.

Really?

Makes complete sense... only if you accept that Paul VI wasn't a Catholic at all.

This pope is almost an open heretic.

@johnc
Only "almost"?

And as for those earlier in the thread such as "Achilles" who think that Ratzinger is still the pope... he was just like Francis, only sneakier.

Anonymous Hairy Tick February 18, 2016 10:27 PM  

one bad Pope

No doubt! That's all! ONE bad Pope.

Oh, and Peter's admission was the foundation. Not Peter.

Anonymous Leonidas February 18, 2016 10:28 PM  

@9:

On that basis the pope just declared the majority of American Christians to be "not real Christians".

When Vox says that half of American Christians aren't real Christians everyone here applauds. When Pope Francis implies it everyone here says he's nuts. Love it.

Anonymous The Kulak February 18, 2016 11:01 PM  

@ 147 "The most likely long-term scenario is that the Church will split. The traditionalists might end up with a large proportion of the true Catholics but the SJW faction will end up with all the money, power and influence." If the Catholic body splits when one part goes full apostate (there's already plenty of heresy from an Orthodox perspective) Orthodoxy is waiting to receive those Catholics who wish to remain faithful to the Catholic, Apostolic Church. Thus God may be allowing the full flowering of apostasy within the Roman confession's boundaries in order to 'nudge' those Catholics who wish to remain faithful to the Church of the Apostles and the first millenium East. At least that's my personal theory, it is not a theory widespread or preached by Orthodox priests.

Anonymous MendoScot February 18, 2016 11:13 PM  

So Liberation Theology is heresy but Social Justice is not? Perhaps a Catholic can explain this to us benighted Prods.

Blogger IM2L844 February 18, 2016 11:41 PM  

When Vox says that half of American Christians aren't real Christians everyone here applauds. When Pope Francis implies it everyone here says he's nuts. Love it.

It's the passive/aggressive bullshit that pisses me off. Nuanced implications are fine. Just don't try to pass off accusatory implications as loving and encouraging wisdom.

Anonymous redsash February 19, 2016 12:21 AM  

The gospel is so simple and its logic so indisputable that one has to willfully decide to get it wrong. Tyndale was right. A boy behind a plow having once read the New Testament knows more than this Pope, all Popes, all centers of catholic learning. Even the much loved John Paul II has recently been shown to be an adulterer in the broad sense of the term (see discovered love letters).

Mark 16:16 He who has believed AND has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
Acts 8: 34-39 Paraphrased, Philip preached the gospel to the Ethiopian eunuch, they both went down into the water and he baptized him, they came up out of the water, and the eunuch went on his way rejoicing.
Acts 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience-through the resurrection of Jesus Christ
Colossians 2:12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God,...
Ephesians 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all through all and in all.
Leviticus 10:1-3 Now Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took their respective firepans, and after putting fire in them, placed incense on it and offered strange fire before the Lord, which He had not commanded them. 2 And fire came out from the presence of the Lord and consumed them, and they died before the Lord. 3 Then Moses said to Aaron, "It is what the Lord spoke, saying, 'By those who come near Me I will be treated as holy, And before all the people I will be honored.'"

Now, what does logic and reason have to offer? Baptism is immersion in water, not sprinkling, not a pouring.
Baptism requires a prior belief that Jesus is the Son of God. This is absent in infant baptism; therefore, the infant is not baptized and is merely getting wet.
Our eternal destiny demands that we not offer strange fire before the Lord, that we not substitute man's precepts for God's clearly and easily understood commandments, that we live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.

Christians have forgotten how stupid and cruel the catholic church has been and continues to be as it follows the doctrines of demons and there are protestant denominations dragging their followers to the pits of hell as well (thank you very much women in church leadership).

And if you think I go too far in condemnation of the catholic church, pick up Foxx's Book of Martyrs or look no further than the current pope and if you enjoy reading the Word of God in English give John Tyndale a thank you.

Blogger bob k. mando February 19, 2016 1:03 AM  

5. Stephen J. February 18, 2016 2:22 PM
Under Just War theory, one of the roles of the clergy is to seek reconciliation rather than destruction wherever possible
...
I respect Francis as my spiritual leader



hunh, that's funny. almost the entire Old Testament, the religious leaders were the ones seeking destruction rather than peace whenever possible.

perhaps it would clarify matters if you could point out where the Bible mentions 'Just War' theory?

what's that? JW theory is a thing of the material, fallen world?

oh. oh my.



23. Stephen J. February 18, 2016 2:42 PM
It is up to the rest of us to decide whether that description aptly applies to Trump's proposed policies.



Trump has said repeatedly that his Wall will have a big, beautiful Door in it.

therefore, for the Pope to have opined in this manner, he is either grossly ignorant ( what business does the Pope have commenting on any politician if he doesn't actually know that politicians statements and positions? ) OR willfully trying to use subtle lies ( you notice the conditional in the accusation ) to imply that Trump is unfit for office.

either possibility suggests that the Pope is unfit for his office.



28. Austin Ballast February 18, 2016 2:48 PM
So Charles Martel should have built a bridge for the Islamic invaders oh so many years ago instead of fighting them?



indeed. for a thousand years, the RCC has raised walls against and sought the destruction of, Islam.

for the current leader of the entity which instituted the Crusades ( and keep in mind that i agree that the Crusades were a good thing ) to presume to lecture ANYONE about 'walls' and fighting rather than helping, the only necessary retort is to ask why he's not bowing to Mecca.



38. Daniel H February 18, 2016 3:16 PM
I say to Francis, respectfully, learn some history.



he knows the history.

regardless of how he arrived at this pronouncement, the hypocrisy is breathtaking.




121. Casher O'Neill February 18, 2016 6:43 PM
The Reuters reporter, through the question, created the impression of a prior attack by Trump against the Pope and asked for the Pope's response to the fabricated attack.



agreed.


121. Casher O'Neill February 18, 2016 6:43 PM
The Enemy has won a great victory through the clever use of psyops



no.

you can't cheat an honest man and you can't make a fool of a wise Pope.

Francis walked himself right into the talking point and provided quotes of breathtaking hypocrisy, apparent ignorance and stupidity.

further, where is his disavowal? Trump has *never* said he wants to eliminate immigration, Trump has even advocated for greater legal immigration quotas.

what, then, does the Pope have to complain about?

IF the Pope apologizes to Trump for "allowing himself to be suckered" into slandering a position Trump never took
THEN we will have some evidence that the Pope might possibly have some concern for Biblical teaching.

Blogger Laramie Hirsch February 19, 2016 1:05 AM  

Catholic here.

So, for anyone non-Catholics reading this thread, here's a bit of recent history.

The Catholic Church is torn. Most of it is comprised of liberal Catholics who attend the liberal Novus Ordo Mass that was created in 1968.

A small minority of us attend the classic, traditional Tridentine Latin Mass, the Mass of the Ages.
This pope, a liberal, has been recognized by Trads as a clear agitator against the traditional Western Man ever since he was elected into office. Most of us Traditionalists consider the possibility that he was put into the papacy by FreeMasons.

Everyone, from Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, atheists, (and Protestants) is just fine and on their way to Heaven. Meanwhile, if you are a traditional person--and, expecially, a Traditionalist Catholics, then you're completely in the wrong and on your way to Hell.

Ann Barnhardt will fill you in on how Pope Francis has been working out for us. But I would also suggest reading The Remnant, as well as Steve Skojec's onepeterfive.com. (I suppose you could even tune in and hear my rambles about the state of things over at the Hirsch Files blog.)

The point is: This man does not represent The Catholic Church as it has always been. In fact, most of his words are not official teaching, but only his political opinions. Unfortunately, everyone is mistaking his political opinions for Church teaching.

But, to be honest, I do not think that Pope Francis will be remembered as the pope who reminded us of what the Catholic Church has always taught us. And that is putting it politely.

Anonymous Wyrd February 19, 2016 1:21 AM  

The point is: This man does not represent The Catholic Church as it has always been. In fact, most of his words are not official teaching, but only his political opinions. Unfortunately, everyone is mistaking his political opinions for Church teaching.

Not everyone, although I know your rhetorical meaning. There are those of us, even Protestants, who respect the multi-century history of Catholicism, especially its tradition of preserving ancient literature and subsequent Scholasticism. I put the current Pope in the category of Pope Alexander VI, a very worldly man.

Anonymous tublecane February 19, 2016 1:45 AM  

@121-What you say is true, and an awful lot of journalism is mere junior high girl gossip. However, this keeps happening over and over with this pope. I don't remember it happening with Benedict or JPII, at least not as often and not in the same direction. They both got crap about the holocaust and the child abuse coverup, for instance, but not in some way that pitted them against the faithful in the manner of Francis.

Plus, as somebody else said, the Vatican has its own bullhorn, and enough fellow-traveller news organs to get its side of the story out. I don't want to draw any conclusions from gossip wars; however, I can draw conclusions from the lack of Francis coming out and consistently saying the sort of things we expect from a pope, in addition to all the things he says that make him sound like a nice version of Che Guevara.

Blogger LP9 Rin Integra S.I.G. Burnin' Up, Dune soaked, 80 svedka - The Lord overrides all! February 19, 2016 4:40 AM  

http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=231128

Trump press conf.

Mainline Christian radio is asking if Trump appears good but would lead to doom, like a false prophet of some sort.

Meanwhile Russia airs documentaries offering insight to stateside corruption and deception.

Blogger Jeffrey Quick February 19, 2016 6:21 AM  

"So Liberation Theology is heresy but Social Justice is not? Perhaps a Catholic can explain this to us benighted Prods.”

The problem is that Social Justice, as a term, is a Marxist cultural appropriation from Catholicism. To really understand the term you need to use “justice” in a Thomistic rather than an everyday sense. Social justice, as portrayed in the encyclical Rerum novarum, is just “What would Jesus do?” In the economic sphere. SJ now, as practiced by SJWs (including Catholics) is something else.

Blogger Matamoros February 19, 2016 6:28 AM  

@22 You are undoubtedly correct about the press distorting his words. I, for one, would appreciate it if you could tell us what he really said.

Francis is, anti-capitalist, but he is anti-predatory capitalist and does not understand free-enterprise capitalism as it is in the U.S. - or at least has been historically.

I'm sure you will agree that the Jesuits were coopted into marxist liberation theology, which they spouted all over the Americas, including here. This also is most likely a problem of his, as well.

Blogger JaimeInTexas February 19, 2016 6:33 AM  

Baptism is commanded but the word baptism, in context, can also mean becoming/being a follower of Jesus, not the public act of declaration associated with water. As to baptism must be by submersion, I disagree. Best method for the public message but the method is not the substance. Water baptism in most cases follow belief. In some cases it seems to precede belief, although, why submit to baptism without believing? Ultimately, water baptism is an act of obedience that in some circumstances is not available. Salvation depends not in the form but in the intetnal substantive reality of a spiritual circumcision and baptism.

Blogger darrenl February 19, 2016 7:23 AM  

...and the circle continues, and I'm starting to get dizzy

- Francis is a socialist
- Benedict is a nazi
- PJII was a Traitor to his vows
- something..something...Vatican 2...something...something
- Peter was a coward
- Christ was a drunkard

Keep piling on, guys.

Anonymous Millenium February 19, 2016 7:39 AM  

@171: Right now Cardinal George Pell from Australia is hiding out at the Vatican so he doesn't have to testify about his involvement in covering up decades of child sexual abuse by the clergy in Australia. Why is the Pope sheltering such an evil man?

Blogger Ilíon February 19, 2016 8:08 AM  

Laramie Hirsch, alluding to the mindset of the "liberal" Catholics: "Everyone, from Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, atheists, (and Protestants) is just fine and on their way to Heaven. Meanwhile, if you are a traditional person--and, expecially, a Traditionalist Catholics, then you're completely in the wrong and on your way to Hell."

Really? they've decided that we Protestants can get to Heaven, after all? So, is it now only the Traditionalist Catholics who insist that we are demon food?

Look, you Catholics who really are Christians are going to have to decide -- are you Christians, or are you Catholics? To put it another way, are you effectively protestants (capitalization intentional)? And, if you are effectively protestants, could you maybe see your way to ceasing the condemnations of us Protestants who really are Christians?

Anonymous redsash February 19, 2016 9:10 AM  

JaimeinTexas: (can also mean?) Wrong. Scripture declares that there is only one baptism.

You disagree. Right. You are in effect offering strange fire before the Lord, substituting your opinion for His clear and unambiguous commandments, examples, and inferences of what baptism is and does.

Peter got it backwards and meant to say that baptism now DOES NOT save you.

If anyone can find me a passage in the new testament where we can become a Christian without first belief and then baptism (immersion in water), I will humbly apologize to all; but, be forewarned the thief on the cross died prior to the church age in which we now reside.

Blogger Durandel Almiras February 19, 2016 9:23 AM  

Even if a schism occurs, the Church will continue on. If you study the Church's history, it's amazing it has lasted this long. It's almost as if Christ was serious when he said the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

It is infiltrated, and we need some strong leadership to clean up the house. I also think if we wait it out long enough most of the infiltrators, who are a cohort, men of a particular time, will die out. the damage left behind will need to be cleaned up but it will be easier once the deliberate agents are all buried in the ground.

Blogger Ilíon February 19, 2016 9:35 AM  

Durandel Almiras: "Even if a schism occurs, the Church will continue on. If you study the Church's history, it's amazing it has lasted this long. It's almost as if Christ was serious when he said the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

This reflects a total -- albeit very common -- misunderstanding of the metaphor, understanding in the very opposite of what it is -- the metaphor is that Christ's church (not Peter's) is laying siege to the City Hell, and that the city's gates will not keep the besiegers out forever.

Anonymous Viking February 19, 2016 9:44 AM  

By Catholic definition anyone who has been baptized with water with the intension of it being a Christian baptism regardless of his current disposition is a Christian. Perhaps not a good Christian but a Christian none the less.

Pope's are only infallible when they make their statements ex cathedra. that is, they have to make it very clear that they are making a ruling on a matter concerning faith and morals. See the end of Ordinatio Sacerdotalis for a good example.

But for a Pope to make such an uncharitable statement concerning the moral disposition of another publicly is shocking and very disappointing to the Catholic. It seems like the Pope may be letting his own politics drive his public teaching, which itself would be a very poor example for a Bishop to give. But lets hope that was not the Pope's intention.

Blogger JaimeInTexas February 19, 2016 10:41 AM  

174. redsash

Strange fire? Or, you foolish Galatian?

Blogger JaimeInTexas February 19, 2016 10:44 AM  

174. redsash

Was the Baptism of John not good enough?
Were the Disciples of Jesus baptized?

Blogger Matamoros February 19, 2016 11:23 AM  

Trump's victory over the Pope: Francis backs down over 'not Christian' claim as Vatican says it was not a 'personal attack' or attempt to influence presidential vote

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3454720/Popes-comments-Trump-not-personal-attack-papal-spokesman.html

Blogger Casher O'Neill February 19, 2016 11:41 AM  

@180 et. al. It's nice to see how many of the readers here stick exclusively to headlines. After Wright, others, and I explained the situation and others linked the whole interview, at comment 180 we still have people saying he attacked Trump and is changing his tune. How's this for a headline: "Vatican clarifies that the Pope did not say the stuff the lying press pretended he did." Or how about this:"Reuters dupes world (again)"

Blogger Eric Slate February 19, 2016 12:01 PM  

As a Catholic, I have come to trust the media to lie about what the pope has said. It is entirely within their character to deliberately misquote Trump to get a reaction from the pope, then turn around, take that reaction and mischaracterize it...all for the greater good of ratings, of course. Media version of "let's you and him fight". Like Trump, this pope has realized that you can't get media coverage without playing.

Blogger Michael O'Duibhir February 19, 2016 12:47 PM  

"Look, you Catholics who really are Christians are going to have to decide -- are you Christians, or are you Catholics? To put it another way, are you effectively protestants (capitalization intentional)? And, if you are effectively protestants, could you maybe see your way to ceasing the condemnations of us Protestants who really are Christians?"

Ilion, if you have European ancestry then your ancestors were Catholics. Catholicism was at one time the ONLY Christian denomination on the planet. Thus, your ancestors at one time in the past HAD to be Catholics.

Blogger John Wright February 19, 2016 1:31 PM  

Well the news today, at least some of the news outlets (Catholic Talk Radio) are reporting what the Pope ACTUALLY said, and, as predicted, it was a logical, nuanced, and pastoral statement which the press utterly misreported, misquoted, and lied about.

And those of you who believed the press now know not to.

Blogger John Wright February 19, 2016 1:34 PM  

"But for a Pope to make such an uncharitable statement concerning the moral disposition of another publicly is shocking and very disappointing to the Catholic."

Why do you believe what the devil says about the Pope? Why do you believe what the Press says about the Pope?

Open your eyes.

Blogger Casher O'Neill February 19, 2016 1:55 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Casher O'Neill February 19, 2016 1:58 PM  

@163 You now have your (qualified) disavowal. Sorry if he couldn't rush to it while sleeping on a plane.

It wasn't apparent ignorance on the Pope's part he stated his ignorance, hence the conditional statement and the couching of his response in general principles.

As for the Pope being a fool, a dishonest man can make even the wise appear foolish to fools. Look how Atheists mock the Scriptures.

Blogger ray February 19, 2016 2:00 PM  

"darrenl --

- Francis is a socialist
- Benedict is a nazi
- PJII was a Traitor to his vows
- something..something...Vatican 2...something...something
- Peter was a coward
- Christ was a drunkard

Keep piling on, guys."



Nobody is 'piling on'. You are just over-reacting because the truth about the church in which you are invested emotionally and otherwise makes you uncomfortable. Too bad.

You are also a liar. Your popes were shown to be false, so you append that we've accused Peter of cowardice and Christ of drunken-ness . . . tho you know very well that people here did not make the latter two accusations.

And this, in part, is why you and your church are in trouble. You reject the truth (that ultimately is Christ) and instead embrace man-made Tradition and rituals and papal proclamations and all the rest, instead of embracing Christ and his Word in scripture. Then you become defensive and belligerent when people point out that your Infallible Holy Father is a fake. That is not their problem, it is your problem, and the way to resolve your problem isn't by making false accusations like you are Emma Sulkywitz, Offended Mattressgirl.

Blogger Booch Paradise February 19, 2016 2:05 PM  

Is this a good source? Because based on this transcript, I'm not really seeing anything being wildly misreported.

Blogger Michael O'Duibhir February 19, 2016 2:05 PM  

"You reject the truth (that ultimately is Christ) and instead embrace man-made Tradition and rituals and papal proclamations and all the rest, instead of embracing Christ and his Word in scripture."

Ray, in what year was the Catholic Church founded? How about YOUR church, when was it founded?

Blogger Casher O'Neill February 19, 2016 2:34 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Casher O'Neill February 19, 2016 2:38 PM  

@189 If you don't see any difference between the Pope's statement as an answer to the question "Can a Catholic vote for an insane family-destroying hate monger who called you a pawn and a tool of the Mexican government (which BTW Trump did not say)?" and the narrative of the news stories, which chopped up the Pope's answer, hid the question, filled in the gaps and added completely false headlines, then I guess you can call it accurate reporting. I'd have to think our ideas of accurate reporting differ somewhat though. Though "wildly" covers a great many journalistic sins.

Anonymous Alex February 19, 2016 4:28 PM  

http://a-cnn.com/index.php/articles/item/2027-trump-becomes-catholic-now-running-for-pope

Anonymous Camilla Cameo February 19, 2016 4:51 PM  

I am a traditional Catholic and I don't trust Trump, but this almost makes me want to support him. This is a bad pope indeed.

Like Mr. Wright, whom I highly respect, I used to insist on forcing the orthodox interpretation on Bergoglio's vague words. But then I started reading what he said in full. Mr. Wright, did you read his sermon at the end of the Synod on the Family (at which all the prelates that he specially invited voted against including specification that for divorced and remarried Catholics to receive Communion they must "live as brother and sister") where he raged against those who conserve the letter of the law? I read the entire original thing, not the press spin. Did you read the sermon where he said that Christians who try to preserve "how it has been done" "live meaningless lives"? I read the entire original thing, not the press spin. Did you read where he said that "those who believe in absolute truth" "do evil"? I read the entire original thing, not the press spin. And now it seems that the Vatican has clarified one of his statements, and that they're saying, yes, he did indeed mean to deny Church teaching on contraceptives.

Not to mention the fact that no one can find any instance of him genuflecting to the Blessed Sacrament--and they are looking--even though he did go down on his knees to wash the feet of women on Maundy Thursdays, so it cannot be that he is physically unable.

It is not necessary to the Faith to insist the pope must be good. Papal infallibility actually covers very little. As @140 Jeffrey Quick, and St. John Eudes, said, a bad pope is what a flagrantly sinful people deserves, and in His Just Wrath, God will give it to them.

Anonymous cincinnatus February 19, 2016 5:28 PM  

Well the news today, at least some of the news outlets (Catholic Talk Radio) are reporting what the Pope ACTUALLY said, and, as predicted, it was a logical, nuanced, and pastoral statement which the press utterly misreported, misquoted, and lied about.

@184
Yes, it's all over the Internet by now. And what you call "logical, nuanced, and pastoral" is nothing but weak, feel-good drivel:

"And then, a person who thinks only about building walls, wherever they may be, and not building bridges, is not Christian. This is not in the Gospel. As far as what you said about whether I would advise to vote or not to vote, I am not going to get involved in that. I say only that this man is not Christian if he has said things like that. We must see if he said things in that way and in this I give the benefit of the doubt."

It also happens to be no different from anything the Dalai Lama would say.

Heresy also can be declared by hints and gestures. And lest people get too alarmed, that is in fact how the recent Modernist antipopes have preferred to spout their heresies, and Francis is no exception.

What is the hint and gesture here? Yes, that trying to keep out illegal immigration is bad. And Francis has hinted and gestured before that, yes, that also includes illegal Muslim immigration. There is no other way of interpreting it. You can gas on all you want about how he stuck an "only" in there or whatever, but that's not how the statement comes out.

Blaming the press for everything is ridiculous.

Anonymous cincinnatus February 19, 2016 5:54 PM  

Well the news today, at least some of the news outlets (Catholic Talk Radio) are reporting what the Pope ACTUALLY said, and, as predicted, it was a logical, nuanced, and pastoral statement which the press utterly misreported, misquoted, and lied about.

"Nuanced" = can be read in two contradictory ways; doubletalk.
"Pastoral" = feel-good, condemns nobody, nice-nice.

What it was, was a classic Gamma attack on Trump. Gamma, in two ways: 1) passive-aggressive, and 2) done with a degree of plausible deniability:

"Thank God he [Trump] said I was a politician because Aristotle defined the human person as 'animal politicus.' At least I am a human person. As to whether I am a pawn, well, maybe, I don't know. I'll leave that up to your judgment and that of the people. And then, a person who thinks only about building walls, wherever they may be, and not building bridges, is not Christian. This is not in the Gospel. As far as what you said about whether I would advise to vote or not to vote, I am not going to get involved in that. I say only that this man is not Christian if he has said things like that. We must see if he said things in that way and in this I give the benefit of the doubt."

Anonymous Alex February 19, 2016 6:02 PM  

http://i.imgur.com/YPpJrQq.jpg

Blogger Casher O'Neill February 19, 2016 7:16 PM  

@195 Well at least all the people commenting here, as well as the host, are doing their level best to make Trump look positively magnanimous.

Catholic clergy at senior levels are a sigma, beta, lambda set. Your analysis is off.

Anonymous redsash February 20, 2016 3:15 AM  

JaimeInTexas: The baptism of John, the baptism of repentance, was insufficient; hence, the rebaptism mentioned in Acts 19: 4-5 Paul said, John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Back in Acts 18 verses 24-26 we are told of Apollos, a man mighty in the Scriptures. He was speaking and teaching accurately the things concerning Jesus, being acquainted only with the baptism of John. Priscilla and Aquila heard him, took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.

Let us now examine the conversion of the Apostle Paul. On the road to Damascus Saul is blinded by a light, he also heard "I am Jesus whom you are persecuting, but get up and enter the city, and it will be told you what you must do. For three days Saul is blinded, he neither eats nor drinks, and is in prayer. In another part of the city a disciple named Ananias is told by the Lord to seek out Saul, lay his hands upon Saul so that Saul will have his vision restored, and that Saul is aware of what will transpire. And after laying his hands on him said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit." And immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he regained his sight, and he got up and was baptized. (Acts 9: 3-18) Recounting this same event in Acts 22:16 we are told, "Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling upon His name." What does logic clearly point us to? That after having a personal encounter with Jesus, believing that Jesus was the Son of God, Paul still had to deal with his sins, and that those sins were only washed away through the act of baptism, that act whereby the sinner contacts the saving grace of God, the shed blood of Christ, in the waters of baptism. Of course it only gets easier from here. We are told to be Holy, to be repentant, to pray w/o ceasing, to study to show ourselves approved, and to be faithful until the end or be spewed out like luke warm water. Hopefully, God's mercy places us all on a favorable grading curve.

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