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Monday, March 07, 2016

A few good apples

Even the police are sickened by what "law enforcement" has become. M-Zed shares an email he received recently from a policeman.
You've mentioned cops shooting dogs, and there are a lot of videos about it. My department's response team has specific instructions about that.

It is likely for a dog to be a threat, especially on a drug raid. They like keeping pit bulls and others, sometimes several of them, to use against cops as both attackers, alarms, and decoys.

If there's a dog on those raids, our guys will shoot it on sight, because it might be violent, and will probably get in the way.

Even if it's not a violent encounter, dogs don't comprehend what people are doing, or instructions, and get in the way or turn defensive.

The lead officer also said basically that dogs are legally property, and it's better to shoot a dog than a person. If you shoot the dog right off the bat, it makes it clear you're willing to use force, and will have to less often. You create a psychological position of strength.

I don't know what to suggest other than to not have a dog, and be very compliant in any encounter with law enforcement. As they said at the Academy, "If you want people to always be happy to see you, be a firefighter."

Most guys here like intimidation, and like the master/serf relationship.They joke about the women they make cry and the men who get very meek. Especially vets. If they can intimidate a guy with a USMC plate, it's like Christmas.

I haven't shot a dog and won't unless I have to because the dog attacks me and I can't beat it off with a baton.

I used to love this job. Now, I'm looking forward to retirement and doing something else.
The US police are increasingly made up of cowards and bullies who don't have the brains or the steel to succeed in the military. They love dressing up like soldiers and pretending they are soldiers, but they turn into the biggest cowards in the world the moment that a dog barks at them. There is a reason that historical wargames assign to police units the lowest level of morale.

They hide behind their badges and strut and swagger, but their true nature is revealed the moment that anyone dares to shoot back at them. Then, they're suddenly aware of the fact that they are completely outnumbered and their very existence depends upon the goodwill of the public they despise.

The thing is, most of them know they are inferior. That's why they get off on trying to humiliate and lord it over their betters. Self-appointed defense attorneys for the police always like to claim that police crimes are only committed by "a few bad apples", but it increasingly sounds as if the problem is now inherent to the occupation, and that there are fewer and fewer "good apples" these days.

As for dogs, police should never shoot them except in the case of extreme emergency. They cannot reasonably claim they are in fear for their lives. And if they are going to claim the license to shoot the public's dogs at will, the public should have the legal right to freely kill police dogs whenever they encounter them without penalty.

Just to create a psychological position of strength, you understand.

Labels:

98 Comments:

Blogger Keef March 07, 2016 7:32 AM  

Best post I've ever read here

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother March 07, 2016 7:41 AM  

You think you're intimidating a guy with a USMC plate? Don't worry, bud. Keep thinking that. He's thinking of a throat punch.

Blogger 1337kestrel March 07, 2016 7:54 AM  

Personally, I try to be polite when I encounter a mentally challenged person with a gun.

Besides the militarization of the police, and the declining quality of the working class which provides recruits, another factor driving their worsening is that more brutality and indifference is required to deal with illegal MS13 Hitmen on PCP, than used to be required to throw ol' Gus in the drunk tank.

Anonymous That Would Be Telling March 07, 2016 7:54 AM  

They love dressing up like soldiers and pretending they are soldiers, but they turn into the biggest cowards in the world the moment that a dog barks at them.

It's much worse than that, the notorious cases, which are legion, are about cops who shoot dogs who are no threat at all, sometimes running away, and in one of the most egregious Sheriff Joe atrocities, using a fire extinguisher to chase a puppy back into a house they'd just set on fire in a bogus raid.

Why do they do this, when fear of dogs isn't the cause? A less charitable explanation is that they like killing, but right now can only get away with dogs. Plus:

They hide behind their badges and strut and swagger, but their true nature is revealed the moment that anyone dares to shoot back. Then, they're suddenly aware of the fact that they are completely outnumbered and their very existence depends upon the goodwill of the public they despise.

Even that is too charitable, note how they completely lost their shit when Chris Dorner started hunting them, doing things like magazine dumps into a pickup truck that in no way matched the description of the one they were on the alert for. Only their pathetic marksmanship left the two ladies delivering papers in it wounded, but alive. (And they tried to weasel out of reimbursing their victims for totaling the vehicle).

Self-appointed defense attorneys for the police always like to claim that police crimes are committed by "a few bad apples", but it increasingly sounds as if the problem is now inherent to the occupation and there are fewer and fewer "good apples" these days.

Outside of a few special cases like some rural areas, in the US there are no good cops,, because the "good" ones universally cover up for the "bad apples."

"NWA was right" indeed.

OpenID denektenorsk March 07, 2016 7:55 AM  

Vox, did you see this when it was a thing?

http://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barring-high-iqs-cops/story?id=95836

So, banning them smarties is a thing, but banning the dummies is discrimination.

Blogger Thomas Davidsmeier March 07, 2016 8:05 AM  

I know a guy who is a cop on the west side of Chicago (Gangster Paradise). He's a former tank driver from Desert Storm. He isn't lacking anything when it comes to brains or steel. He's thinking about trying to do something else, but it isn't because of the bad apples around him.

He says that the politicians are basically tying the hands of the cops to keep crime numbers down. Things have to be called "death investigations" instead of "homicide investigations." Because of an agreement the city made with the ACLU, they have to fill out extra paperwork for every time the STOP a person, not just arrest them. So, you stop a suspicious looking pair of youths to see what they are up to, and you've got an hour and a half of paperwork to fill out to make sure you didn't violate their civil rights.

That's not even getting into the way the city handled videos of what became thought of as police misconduct in shootings or the whole "Wrongful Conviction" movement that has been releasing killers and accusing cops of torture with no evidence except the claims of convicted murders.

In other words, coupled with the attitudes of the public that Vox is voicing, it seems like a great time to be a cop. Glad I'm a teacher instead.

Blogger Thomas Davidsmeier March 07, 2016 8:07 AM  

@3 My buddy's descriptions of dudes on PCP are beyond frightening. It is like there is a whole different world about twenty five miles away from where I live.

Blogger Skylark Thibedeau March 07, 2016 8:13 AM  

My experience working as a civilian in law enforcement for several years is that most departments are a patronage jobs program for local politicians. Seemed like the only people hired that didn't have some kind of relationship with a politician were those with some technical expertise like programming or fingerprint analysis.

Give a person like that a gun and a badge and the belief that Daddy's friends the Sheriff and the Judge will fix anything I screw up and you're asking for trouble.

Blogger Sir Thermite March 07, 2016 8:20 AM  

Great post. As real soldiers are repeatedly hamstrung by overly-strict new rules-of-engagement intended to cover politicians asses during wars the same politicians put them into...almost every time I hear about police aggression against the public it's excused by their "department policy." And if shooting at an unleashed, attacking police dog is classified as assault on an officer, as I've heard happen before, then why shouldn't the police shooting a man's dog which isn't even attacking them, be judged as the murderers of his family member?

Blogger Skylark Thibedeau March 07, 2016 8:21 AM  

I've seen Six Cops being thrown around a Sally Port by one heavily muscled red neck high on PCP. They are dangerous but I don't believe every video taped police beating is of someone on Angeldust as they claim.

Anonymous JAG March 07, 2016 8:23 AM  

From the article:

"If you shoot the dog right off the bat, it makes it clear you're willing to use force, and will have to less often. You create a psychological position of strength."

Nope. You create a psychological position of hate, resentment, and a desire to get even. This is horrible advice, and just reeks of police state. People across the spectrum of society are getting very tired of this, and it will be only a matter of time before things boil over in my opinion.

Retraining is needed as well as a change of the "us vs them" attitude, and "everyone is a suspect" mentality that pervades police work. Get rid of the thin blue line as well as abolish the fraternal order of police. I believe there should only be constitutionally elected Sheriffs who then hire their own deputies. Also need to do away with internal review and have only citizen review boards that are randomly selected like jury duty be the ones to investigate police abuse. Any police officer clearly violating rights such as busting someone for filming, or detaining them without articulating a suspicion of a crime should be fired immediately and tried for deprivation of rights under color of authority which is borderline treason in my humble opinion.

Blogger Skylark Thibedeau March 07, 2016 8:24 AM  

@10 If you look at most of the Officers killed in the line of duty webpages, the numbers are skewed because they count the K9 Officers killed along with the humans.

Blogger James Dixon March 07, 2016 8:27 AM  

> My department's response team has specific instructions about that.

The ASPCA needs to get a copy of those instructions and launch a class action lawsuit.

Our governor's comments when the legislature overturned his veto of the concealed carry law:

“It’s unfortunate that the concerns of officers from every law enforcement branch in the state, including the West Virginia State Police and university campus police officers, have been ignored by today’s action,” Tomblin said.

Hey, Tomblin, if they're that concerned about it, maybe they should quit and get a real job.

Anonymous JAG March 07, 2016 8:27 AM  

I also would abolish drug sniffing dogs for two reasons. The first is that handlers can cause a fake alert with ease to conduct a bogus search. And the other reason is that you cannot put a dog on the witness stand at a trial and cross examine it. Clear violation of the constitution.

Anonymous VFM #6306 March 07, 2016 8:29 AM  

If you shoot a dog right off the bat, you have alerted your target that you won't be taking prisoners today. When you create Death Ground in battle, you increase the liklihood of your own death.

Them cops am smart.

But do keep in mind that not all cops are like that, and their donuts! So exotic.

Blogger Salt March 07, 2016 8:31 AM  

The one thing I'm seeing from many cops is that if you criticize them, you're a cop hater. They keep falling back to the "not all cops are bad" so why tarnish the good ones because of a few bad apples.

Yeah, their IQ is that low.

Blogger Nate March 07, 2016 8:36 AM  

Fuck the Police.

Blogger Skylark Thibedeau March 07, 2016 8:41 AM  

I trust a Police Commissioner appointed by the City Council more than I would trust the Elected Sheriff. There was that Sheriff in Tennessee who shot himself when indicted for drug running. And another in the mid south who went to jail for selling Commissioned Deputy positions for $3000.

Also remember the recent political Deputy in Oklahoma who accidentally grabbed his gun instead of a taser. He was a 73 year old probable Campaign Contributor playing Cop on the weekend.

Blogger Chris Mallory March 07, 2016 8:42 AM  

@8 Civilians are government employees not in the military. Cops are civilians.

Anonymous JAG March 07, 2016 8:45 AM  

You can vote a bad sheriff out of office. Can't do that with any other type of law enforcement. At least the sheriff is accountable to the voters.

Blogger Nate March 07, 2016 8:51 AM  

"I trust a Police Commissioner appointed by the City Council more than I would trust the Elected Sheriff. "

Then you really suck at pattern recognition. If you can't tell the difference between the sheriff's department deputies and the city cops then you're either blind or stupid.

Most sheriffs don't even let their deputies run radar. Sheriffs tend to run much more to the keeping-the-peace side of the spectrum... verses the enforcing the law side that the city cops (who are largely there to generate revenue)run on.

Anonymous kfg March 07, 2016 8:52 AM  

"So, banning them smarties is a thing, but banning the dummies is discrimination."

Even before the fat guy made the story of the New London guy who was refused entry to the police academy for being too smart a national thing, a town in my area fired a cop who had been on the force for years, because . . .

He got a masters degree in criminology.

Blogger Joshua Sinistar March 07, 2016 8:52 AM  

You bluebellies better know, that when you work for rats and apes, you are the enemy. You can laugh, you can cry, you'll still die boy. You better get on the right side bitch. I'm not asking. It is not good advice. Its a matter of life and death. Your pension will buy my cigarettes if you are on the other side bluebelly. You better get right or you'll get dead.

Blogger S1AL March 07, 2016 9:09 AM  

"Then you really suck at pattern recognition. If you can't tell the difference between the sheriff's department deputies and the city cops then you're either blind or stupid."

My dad (a former sheriff's deputy) said something very similar to this when I was younger. My experience with police is the same as with any other group of civil servants: some of them get into it because they want to make the world a better, safer place. A lot just set it as a job. And a small but significant percentage are just plain corrupt, for one reason or another. The problem is that there's a lot more everyday power available to a corrupt cop than a corrupt teacher or firefighter.

Blogger Skylark Thibedeau March 07, 2016 9:10 AM  

@19 In the law enforcement world if you do not have a commission to carry a firearm you are a Civilian.

@21 I see someone who's never worked for a Sheriff and his Political Machine. Outside city limits it's Deputies who write the tickets and take the calls unless you're in one of those city/county combined Government Charlie Foxtrots where the Sheriff only runs the Jail.

Blogger David-093 March 07, 2016 9:22 AM  

I've had dogs most of my life. The thought a cop breaking into my house and killing them then laughing about it fills me with a murderous rage I can't describe.

Blogger Chris Mallory March 07, 2016 9:25 AM  

@19 I have a natural born right to carry a firearm and I do so every day. I am a citizen. Cops are civilians,a government employee not in the military. It is the government job that makes them civilians, not the firearm.

Blogger Skylark Thibedeau March 07, 2016 9:26 AM  

Can you vote a Sheriff out of office? In Charlotte they had a Special Democrat only election to replace the Sheriff. The wrong guy won so they found a way to invalidate his votes so that the chosen guy won. A couple of politicians who depended on precincts in the Community staying open til midnight to win at large decided to retire when the Community Candidate's election was overturned.

Anonymous Quartermaster March 07, 2016 9:30 AM  

@25
Police are civilians. Period. They are not soldiers. It matters not what the idiots want to think of themselves. If they don't want to be civilians, then let them face a rifle platoon and see how long they last. It may come to that before it's over.

Blogger Skylark Thibedeau March 07, 2016 9:30 AM  

@27. Webster's: Simple Definition of civilian
: a person who is not a member of the military or of a police or firefighting force

Blogger frenchy March 07, 2016 9:34 AM  

We had this USMC Master Gunny who was on Active Duty, but was doing his reserve stint with us. He was also a sniper, I think, with a Minnesota SWAT team (this was his civilian job). He told me that shooting dogs was SOP. Yeah, he said it was SOP. Not sure what my poker face was saying, but my guts turned over.

Now he was a great guy, totally dependable. Not a bully or mean streak in him. We always welcomed him back because he bust his butt. And that's why it shocked me that he so nonchalantly had that statement roll off his lips.

Now, let any of us try and shoot a K-9 in defense and see what happens.

Blogger dc.sunsets March 07, 2016 9:34 AM  

I still can't get past the video of two TX cops (male & female) cavity searching two young women by the side of a highway.

Neither cop was so much as reprimanded, much less decapitated as was called for.

Anonymous kfg March 07, 2016 9:34 AM  

" a person who is not a member of the military or of a police or firefighting force . . ."

. . . in JAPAN!

Anonymous Athor Pel March 07, 2016 9:35 AM  

"18. Blogger Skylark Thibedeau March 07, 2016 8:41 AM
I trust a Police Commissioner appointed by the City Council more than I would trust the Elected Sheriff.
..."



Your county sheriff is one of the few people with the power to keep fed law enforcement off your back and the other organized crime organizations out of the county. If your community cannot elect someone you trust to have your back then that's on you.

Anonymous A Visitor March 07, 2016 9:35 AM  

@5

That EXACT thing happened to a buddy of mine after we graduated grad school. He tried getting on a local PD near his hometown in order to have a job while mulling over federal opportunities. They told him he was too smart. Well, fast forward a few years later, after a stint with DSS he is finally back at a local police department. I have no clue what made them change their minds.

@6 That's insane!

@7 I used to work with someone who personally knew and worked with one of the officers that arrested Rodney King. Yes, it's insane what PCP can do.

@9 "then why shouldn't the police shooting a man's dog which isn't even attacking them, be judged as the murderers of his family member?" Because then they'd actually have to be discerning about use of force.

@11

"Retraining is needed as well as a change of the "us vs them" attitude, and "everyone is a suspect" mentality that pervades police work. Get rid of the thin blue line as well as abolish the fraternal order of police. I believe there should only be constitutionally elected Sheriffs who then hire their own deputies."

So funny story about sheriffs. One of my clients is a police officer for the local PD. After some moron decided to unify the city and county governments and then some other moron decided to undo, my client told me the sheriff's deputies actually have no arrest authority but nobody has told them that yet. It's been over 5 years...

@14

Now, Mr. Kibbles, what did you smell on the perp's suitcase? *woof!* *gasps*

It's sorta like this, specifically second 20.

@19 THANK YOU! POLICE ARE CIVILIANS!!

Blogger Nate March 07, 2016 9:36 AM  

" Outside city limits it's Deputies who write the tickets and take the calls unless you're in one of those city/county combined Government Charlie Foxtrots where the Sheriff only runs the Jail."

hey dumbass... out in the county is where I live. I deal with both city cops and deputies.. and knoxville and dickson... murfreesboro and cookville... it was the deputies who were respectful and easy to deal with... and city cops who where giant assholes.

interestingly enough the exact same pattern was found when I moved down here to Alabama.

Blogger Salt March 07, 2016 9:37 AM  

Skylark Thibedeau wrote:Can you vote a Sheriff out of office?

In the NC county I'm in, Sheriff's are voted into office so an incumbant becomes not sheriff by being voted out. I'm guessing here, but I'd say what happened in Charlotte was replacing a sheriff who left office prior to election.

Blogger dc.sunsets March 07, 2016 9:37 AM  

Civilized places don't condone probing anuses by badge-wielding perverts. Even handcuffs were not routinely used on slaves when slavery was endemic the world over.

How far have we already fallen from the heights of our past glory.

Blogger Nate March 07, 2016 9:38 AM  

"Neither cop was so much as reprimanded, much less decapitated as was called for."

Never forget that Texas is the authoritarian Law-and-Order hell.

Anonymous Faceless March 07, 2016 9:39 AM  

I tend to think they want to fight, and they want you to do anything to justify unloading. I knew a lady cop - she said she went into it because she was young and angry. Now she is a homemaker and so much happier.

Solomon's advice has always worked well for me, even when I was totally in the right and they were totally wrong. Your average thin blue line has no idea what to do about an appeal to mercy, so usually just leaves you alone.

It's a shame that they always start with anger and bluster and name-calling; your average white person in the suburbs wouldn't be so soured on them if they said, "Sir, I am sorry but I have to give you a citation" instead of "Hands on the dash! Hands on the dash! Hands on the dash! Is this your car?"

Anonymous NateM March 07, 2016 9:39 AM  

"The US police are increasingly made up of cowards and bullies who don't have the brains or the steel to succeed in the military"

A good portion ARE the veterans of the military who got out and needed a job. They get recruited heavily at the Federal State and Local Level. That metnality is a major driver for the attitude you see in Police officers (expecting submission rather than courtesy, not giving any in return)

They just can't adjust to the fact that police work is fundamentally a different type of work. Sure police make bad soldiers, because they aren't soldiers. Soldier make poor police for the same reason.

Blogger pyrrhus March 07, 2016 9:40 AM  

Where I live, we have NO police, only sheriff's deputies in a large county....It is extremely peaceful, with no road banditry, dog shootings, etc. Makes it hard to think about moving....

Blogger Salt March 07, 2016 9:40 AM  

@36 Don't see much of city/town cops out in the county here. It's all deputies or State HP.

Anonymous Faceless March 07, 2016 9:41 AM  

@39

That's what always confused me about the love of Texas. It wasn't even part of the Old South, proper. Totally different mindset in Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, and Missouri than in the Carolinas. Do they still license interior decorators?

Blogger pyrrhus March 07, 2016 9:42 AM  

You can vote a bad sheriff out of office. Can't do that with any other type of law enforcement. At least the sheriff is accountable to the voters.

Precisely. Our sheriff is a typical democrat, but he likes his job so the deputies don't hassle people....

Blogger dc.sunsets March 07, 2016 9:44 AM  

The run on guns & CCL is evidence that the USA is well along the road to anarcho-tyranny where police are useless for preventing crimes against the citizens but are wholly devoted to enforcing the political will.

Blogger Nate March 07, 2016 9:49 AM  

"
That's what always confused me about the love of Texas. It wasn't even part of the Old South, proper. Totally different mindset in Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, and Missouri than in the Carolinas. Do they still license interior decorators?"

Like I say... its a shit hole. No way I would live in TX. Alabama has some Authoritarian issues as well... actually all of the old south does... but not nearly to the degree Texas has. and another big difference... Judges have a ton of power in Bama... but if one gets busted abusing that power... oh you should see the hammer that comes down on them.

This one judge was giving every kid that came before him a maximum sentence at this juvi work camp... and getting paid by the camp per kid. They threw his ass in State Pound Me In The Ass Prison for God knows how long. I doubt he'll ever get out.

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 March 07, 2016 9:49 AM  

This country regards dogs as higher lifeforms than their own unborn. The police would be wise to refrain from killing other people's pets.

Of course, drug legalization would stop a lot of this nonsense but that would mean police don't get all their goodies on drug raids. Like good drugs, cash, and sweet cars.

Anonymous NateM March 07, 2016 9:52 AM  

@36

The county guys seem to get that they have to do more with less, so they have to do things more like they used to in Departments all over. I used to live in a mostly rural county (the town of 40k people was the biggest, a few other modest sized towns) and at night each of the districts of the county had 1 deputy one duty. Given the size of the county they would be anywhere from 50+ road miles apart at any given time. So they have to realize a heavy handed approach just isn't going to work. Sure they could try to drag people outta cars or browbeat them, hold them up indefinitely, but a) that'd waste their resources, keeping one guy tied down, plus all the other deputies who have to come deescalate for this moron b) piss people off to where they wont be much interested in cooperating, which'll make their job harder. And in the old days c) in the old days, the "That Guy" Deputy who did it would get Farva'd

Blogger Stilicho March 07, 2016 9:54 AM  

@James Dixon: brought a tear to my eye when I read that. Good day for the people of the auld graun.

As for Tomblin, so much butthurt, so little comprehension... hilarious.

Blogger borderwalker March 07, 2016 9:56 AM  

@5: You'd better believe it. A good friend of mine, and former architecture/engineering colleague was out of work in the early '00s, and decided to apply to his local police force.

He is about 6'4", 265, and a fitness nut. Very little of that is fat. He's from a .mil family, so he understands the uniform culture, and he knows his way around a gun.

He was warned not to admit that he had a college degree, and not to list any white-collar jobs on his application. (He'd worked part-time at Home Depot for years, so he believably claim he'd spent the time between high school graduation and then in an apron with a nametag.)

However, he went into the written exam and did his best. (Hey, we were all young and naive once.) He finished a "three-hour" test in 40 minutes, *and* got a perfect score.

Then the department started asking a lot of questions. He decided it was best to come clean, got a "don't call us, we'll call you" and never heard another word.

They really don't want anyone too smart.

Blogger David-093 March 07, 2016 9:56 AM  

To a Northerner, Texas and the South seem very similar. It's similar to how Southerners see the New Netherlands states of NJ, NY, and Penn the same as New England. Different people, different mindset.

Blogger Skylark Thibedeau March 07, 2016 10:01 AM  

Yes. It was a Special Election in Charlotte. For some reason since the Sheriff leaving was a Democrat they had a caucus to replace him instead of a public election, but his chosen replacement lost. They claimed the person who won cheated so they got his precincts thrown out.

Anonymous JAG March 07, 2016 10:35 AM  

The TX roadside cavity search did result in the female officer being fired and the male officer being suspended. The female officer also was brought up on charges of sexual assault, but I don't know how that played out.

Blogger White Devil March 07, 2016 10:37 AM  

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Blogger frenchy March 07, 2016 10:38 AM  

@ 35,

Rodney King was not on PCP.

The officers on scene assumed he was on PCP, but he was not. However, was drunk.

Blogger Tex March 07, 2016 10:40 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Tex March 07, 2016 10:42 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Miguel D'Anconia March 07, 2016 10:58 AM  

I'm shocked that the public hasn't started quietly hunting these animals down. No huge publicity, just one by one they disappear. Eventually the hunter realizes, he's hunted....

Nothing should give pause to thought then for a crazed LE to F up then disappear.

Anonymous TLM March 07, 2016 11:15 AM  

Have you ever noticed how when a few cops die within a few days of each other across the country, that they suddenly appear on TV and in print bitching and moaning about the 'war on law enforcement officers' nonsense. They act like women by constantly shielding themselves in victim-speak. And it seems the worst ones aren't the officers that deal with the everyday dregs of society, but it's usually Johnny Law handing out speeding tickets to white middle-aged housewives on their afternoon Starbucks run that seem to think they're equivalent to Q-course qualified Special Forces operators.

Anonymous smedley butler March 07, 2016 11:22 AM  

"Especially vets. If they can intimidate a guy with a USMC plate, it's like Christmas."

When I was in the USMCR there were two types of Marines, Cops and Non-Cops. The Marines who were cops more often than not were complete cowards, dorks, and PT failures. Needless to say, the rest of the Marines hated the cops, because they were often unreliable and tried to exercise authority they did not have.

Marines are the most irreverent of the branches and good Marines don't bend to unlawful authority. This pisses off cops, especially cop Marines.

Blogger dc.sunsets March 07, 2016 11:32 AM  

@ JAG, I stand corrected. I guess the dashcam video was just another signal about the IQ's of the cops involved. Retards commit crimes on camera.

Blogger Skylark Thibedeau March 07, 2016 11:36 AM  

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Anonymous Napoleon 12pdr March 07, 2016 11:44 AM  

White Devil brings up an excellent point. American law enforcement culture does not have an officer cadre.

If you look at an army, you have the line troops who do the fighting. You have NCOs who lead the line troops, but their skill set is that of those line troops. A sergeant is a super-private. Then you have commissioned officers. They have a different skill set, one oriented toward operating larger units, logistics, and working with other organizations. A lieutenant is NOT a super-private, and in many ways a field-grade officer is merely a staff-grade officer under instruction.

Police organizations need that commissioned officer cadre to do the heavy thinking...and don't have it. Which becomes a big problem when terrorist organizations led by men with degrees in the hard sciences, engineering, and medicine are involved.

Anonymous Sam the Man March 07, 2016 11:48 AM  

When a reservist the unit I was in had a fair number of big city policemen (NYC) in it and smaller town policemen/peace officers in it. There was a difference between them.

The small town policemen were more like peace officers. They saw their role to listen to conflicts between folks who called them and attempt to peaceably settle the conflict. There basic first step was to try to deescalate a situation. If a crime occurred to try and track down the criminal, which for the most part they could do as folks would tell them who did it. In essence their moral authority was what let them do the job and they seem like all good chaps. I should also mention the towns they were in were all full of northern European types.

That said if folks did not deescalate they could go into intimidate mode pretty quick and had to have that ability to be effective.

The NYC policemen were different. Eventually I got the real scoop from them about what they faced:

There are not a lot of them relative to the criminal population. Also the mix of cultures means that the moral authority approach does not work. To show the rather polite/deescalate first approach,that you could use in a community of midlands English, Germans, Dutch and Swedes, will not work in NYC. Reason is the "perps" will take the reasonableness as a sign of weakness.

So the way it worked is as follows: Yes they do intimidate everyone if they are coming into a crime scene. If you do not resist they are reasonable. If you do resist, even verbally they kick your ass. If you have a gun, regardless of your gender they beat you up. Of course this approach will result in massive resentment in a northern European/Anglo-Saxon community, who still have a sense of dignity.

The cops I knew did not think it was a good system, but they were stuck in it and that was how it worked. I did not get a sense they really liked the job, it was high tension. Not many of them stayed past 20 years.

The gradual standardization of procedures across all police departments and the binding of their hands has lead to the big city approach going into the white areas. For example it used to be with domestic cases they had some room to use judgment, now most areas if a domestic call is made someone will be arrested, they are required to do so. Same with the use of handcuffs, in the 1970s they did not have to handcuff, now they are required.

Now it might have been the unit was in (RTI, state guard training unit), but I was never of the opinion that the policemen were stupid or cruel. They seemed to show good common sense and a realist view of the world they were in. By the way the stereotype of the Irish working class cop seemed to be true. Those guys all had an intrinsic presence that said "don't F--K with me" and I sort of thought they were very good at their jobs.

By the Nye, in the semi rural-suburban county I live in now, I and most of the folks I work with detest cops. Not that we are criminals (most of the folks I work with have a masters in engineering)but a realistic feeling that the police are a higher risk to our sons than the criminal class. It does seem to be the gradual spread of big city police habits to rural areas where it is an offense against traditional law enforcement practices.

Blogger dvdivx March 07, 2016 12:07 PM  

Having been inside many peoples homes I'd agree with the cop 100%. Shoot the dog first. The real problem is in the west people having dogs instead of kids and confusing an animal with humans. They aren't human FYI and many are vicious having been either trained that way or not trained at all. I get sick and tired of having dogs go after me many times on public property and the owner blames anything but themselves.

Anonymous Ministry of Information Retrieval March 07, 2016 12:08 PM  

Part of how things got so bad is that for a long time the main public critics of police were criminal-romanticizing squish liberals (now a mostly extinct breed) and prog-leftists who resent the cops only because they don't wear little red stars on their caps. Mainstream Buckleycons reacted, and still react by treating the police as precious precious woobies, never to be criticized.

Anonymous BGKB March 07, 2016 12:08 PM  

Only their pathetic marksmanship left the two ladies delivering papers in it wounded, but alive.

The one good thing you can say about most cops.

My buddy's descriptions of dudes on PCP are beyond frightening.

I worked in a toxicology hospital for a while with 2 black felons shot DOA by cops in one month. Groids protesting the one was shot on his way to church but the only church open before 3am on a Saturday night is Our Lady of Jiggling TaTas.

And the other reason is that you cannot put a dog on the witness stand at a trial and cross examine it.

Sure you can, but the hard part is getting the cop with the dog to make the right bzzt sound for the fake alert.

Sure police make bad soldiers, because they aren't soldiers. Soldier make poor police for the same reason

The only thing you can expect soldiers to be good at is breaking things and killing people, even those on the medical side.

Anonymous Jack Amok March 07, 2016 12:15 PM  

I'm shocked that the public hasn't started quietly hunting these animals down. No huge publicity, just one by one they disappear.

We're not there yet. Sane people - with the patience and planning skills necessary to carry out that sort of operation - still have better options in their lives.

But, there are a lot of border-line sane people who might be pushed just far enough over the line to want to do it while retaining enough mental capacity to be methodical about it.

And every dog that gets shot and every roadside humiliation is one more roll of the dice that might push one of those guys just far enough. And that guy isn't going to even try and differentiate between good apples and bad.

Anonymous Barking Mad March 07, 2016 12:16 PM  

@66

Thanks for letting everyone know you have a neurotic hatred of dogs. Now go back to your Tumblr blog.

Anonymous BigGayKoranBurner March 07, 2016 12:30 PM  

Some jobs I interacted with cops every shift I came in, prisoner medical clearance or workplace injuries. If you want Mayberry style policing you need a Mayberry style populace. You have to be pretty stupid to try to get into a fistfight with a uniformed cop.

Barking Mad @66 Thanks for letting everyone know you have a neurotic hatred of dogs. Now go back to your Tumblr blog.

There is a huge difference between a chiwawa and the pit bulls outside the apartment with black plastic trash bags over all the windows. Also in the US so many people are the bitch in their relationship with their dogs, they can't even get them to come when called.

Blogger BunE22 March 07, 2016 12:35 PM  

Cops are like lawyers, everyone hates them until they need one.

That being said, I'm not a fan of cops. Mostly because my brother was one and I know that he's a prick. Gets off on power kind of prick. If anyone has been ticketed by a traffic cop in the Dallas/Ft. Worth area that may have been my brother. He looked like Stone Cold.

I'll never go to TX, the state isn't big enough for the both of us.

There were a couple of cases by me where a cops shot dogs. In one case the cop went into the backyard of a home and shot the dog. The home was not under suspicion for anything, and the cop did not ask permission to go into the yard. In another case the dog had gotten out of the yard and was on the sidewalk and the cop shot it. Don't they carry pepper spray? Shooting should be a last resort. I didn't follow the stories but I hope the owners sued and the cops had to take a little R&R.

Even though I hate them I called them on a drug dealer that sold in front of my house. Last week the guy was arrested. The cop told me that the guy had a few thousand in cash on him. I watched the arrest, the wads of cash were yuge. No 50 and 100 bills in sight. Huh.

Blogger Ian Miguel Martin March 07, 2016 12:55 PM  

“And it seems the worst ones aren't the officers that deal with the everyday dregs of society, but it's usually Johnny Law handing out speeding tickets to white middle-aged housewives on their afternoon Starbucks run that seem to think they're equivalent to Q-course qualified Special Forces operators.”

Absolutely. It might sound weird, but moving into the ‘hood would probably increase your respect for law enforcement. The cops here--immersed in a sea of criminality, much of it violent, and who spend their shifts moving from one call to the next—actually do a pretty good job of telling good guys from bad. It’s not difficult. The differences tend to be stark. Beyond which there just isn’t a whole lot of time left over for playing head games. It’s definitely the lower crime areas that tend to be more of a breeding ground for boredom, power-tripping, and Rambo fantasies. (And class resentment.)

As for dogs, the ones kept by criminals, and by members of the underclass in general, are a public menace. I know plenty of bleeding hearts who prefer to see them “rescued,” but one way or another they need to be gotten rid of.

Blogger Nate March 07, 2016 1:02 PM  

"Cops are like lawyers, everyone hates them until they need one."

that's just it.

We don't need them.

Blogger Nate March 07, 2016 1:05 PM  

"Having been inside many peoples homes I'd agree with the cop 100%. Shoot the dog first."

By all means. Shoot the dog first.

Because while you're shooting the dog... I will be putting two shots into your face.

Blogger OneWingedShark March 07, 2016 1:05 PM  

The Stop, Drop, and Cower brochure describes the relationship between the police and the citizen.

OpenID sigbouncer March 07, 2016 1:14 PM  

"The US police are increasingly made up of cowards and bullies who don't have the brains or the steel to succeed in the military."

There are plenty of military guys out there like this as well. The best military guys are generally the ones who don't talk about or chest thump their service. I'd say this goes for the police as well.

These are high ego jobs and one needs to have some humility to balance out that power that they hold. A certain percentage of the people who go into police work or military work. Can be categorized in the same manner as a pedophile trying to obtain work as a scout leader or summer camp coordinator. Or a guy who wants to become a musician because it will help him get laid.

These people are power trippers who have the need to hide behind a weapon, a badge, a uniform etc. Most wouldn't dream of confronting someone without the backing of their weapon. They need that edge, that advantage. As they would get their asses kicked without it.

OpenID sigbouncer March 07, 2016 1:31 PM  

"Self-appointed defense attorneys for the police"

The entire legal system is a joke.

What is the point in having people place their hand on the bible and swear to tell the truth. When roughly half of them have no true belief or faith? We are a society full of liars anyway. And the good liars rarely get caught.

Blogger VD March 07, 2016 1:38 PM  

The best military guys are generally the ones who don't talk about or chest thump their service.

Bullshit. That's such a complete nonsense. The best military guys are the ones who talk about nothing else, because it is their life.

You couldn't spend 30 seconds with my uncle without him telling you why you should join the Marines... and in five minutes you'd be convinced and ready to sign up.

It usually took about 90 minutes for the spell to wear off.

Anonymous Ain March 07, 2016 2:05 PM  

"Self-appointed defense attorneys for the police always like to claim that police crimes are only committed by "a few bad apples", but it increasingly sounds as if the problem is now inherent to the occupation, and that there are fewer and fewer "good apples" these days.

My friend has a son that's a cop. When he tried to use the few bad apples line on him, he pointed out that if there were good cops, the bad cops wouldn't be getting away with it.

Blogger Akulkis March 07, 2016 2:07 PM  

Per federal law: US Title X Chapter 18, all law enforcement personnel (except military police) are civilians.

This is an important distinction, because in a time of war, per the Geneva Conventions, police are considered non-combatants, where as military are considered combatants, and therefore, fair-game to deliberately target, where as such things as police stations (because they are part of CIVILIAN INFRASTRUCTURE) are not.

Blogger Akulkis March 07, 2016 2:07 PM  

Per federal law: US Title X Chapter 18, all law enforcement personnel (except military police) are civilians.

This is an important distinction, because in a time of war, per the Geneva Conventions, police are considered non-combatants, where as military are considered combatants, and therefore, fair-game to deliberately target, where as such things as police stations (because they are part of CIVILIAN INFRASTRUCTURE) are not.

Blogger Akulkis March 07, 2016 2:18 PM  

@35

Uh, you do realize that a city police officer's arrest authority COMES from being deputized, within the limited jurisdiction of the city employing him, BY THE COUNTY SHERIFF.

It's utterly impossible for sherrif's deputies to not have arrest authority, but for city cops (whose authority derives from being deputized with restrictions) to have arrest authority.

In other words, your client is yet another dumbass city cop who THINKS he's better than everyone else.

Anonymous Sam the Man March 07, 2016 2:28 PM  

I noticed a bifurcated response: A lot of the enlisted guys who had really seen the elephant, that is had killed men and had men killed alongside of them, really did not speak of it. These are the guys with the CIB and battle star ribbons.

The only way you get to hear what they did is to be around when the combat vets start talking to each other. Then stuff comes out and at various times after the event you could ask questions and then get a response. I did that by often asking about weapons use, once in the abstract realm they might discuss it on an abstract level. I truly think a lot of these guys would rather block it all out.

A lot of the vocal enlisted seem to have stories that are, in best light "remembered with advantages". They freely speak about their actions and the bullet whizzing about, but for the most part they did not see the same degree of fighting. Say guys guarding perimeters and such in Iraq, but basically on post. Mortared but not having to shoot a guy in the guts and see him bleed out. Also asking them about weapon details typically would show some of these stories were simply BS.

The one caveat to that is the guys on convoy duty. I spoke to a SFC once at a SDM course who blood seemed to drain out of his face when he spoke of the IEDs and what they did to a HumVee, armored or otherwise. Tough looking guy, had been a DI and had the CAB. Would talk about it and the injuries that the he saw, but had not actually had to kill anyone at close quarters. That I think is the key difference between those who will talk and those who will not. I think for most normal folks if they have killed folks it does not sit well when one grows older.

In the case of the officers, at least above company grade, I do not think they saw as much blood and guts personally. Certainly they did not kill folks in close quarter on a regular basis. Also the officers for the most part do not have the close friendships that the enlisted guys do, indeed they are not supposed to be close to the men they have to order into battle. Makes sense. I also wonder watching some of the officer class if a lot of them are closer to the sociopathic scale than a lot of the enlisted.

Caveat, one mans observations, MOS42A, never sent out of state, never saw anything more fearful than a paper cut or training injury in PLDC. We were the REMFs of the REMF. As such the observations might be off and not representative of the wider active duty personnel.

Anonymous Sam the Man March 07, 2016 2:37 PM  

Post # 84 was in response to Post # 79

Anonymous GRY March 07, 2016 3:12 PM  

I'm not sure why anyone is at all surprised by the attitude of the police in the US in 2016. The behavior of cops is only reverting back to what it's always been in the past.

This is nothing new, if you ask anyone who lived before 1950 how the cops of that era acted you'll hear much the same thing.
Also listen to some old time radio shows featuring detectives and cops and you won't hear about equality and fair treatment.

The rubber hose treatment written about in detective fiction in the 30s and 40s, wasn't just some big talk by cops back then, it was a frequently used interrogation method before the 50s and advent of citizen protests about police brutality.

The only reason why people seem to be so shocked by police behavior these days is because of the rehabilitation of the image of cops starting the in the 1950s on TV.

Shows like Dragnet and Adam-12 plus numerous other ones went on to sell a squeaky clean, Boy Scout image of the friendly neighborhood policeman.

Of course the reality was much different, just ask people who were lower income or a minority and lived in places like Chicago, New York and Los Angeles in the 1950s and 60s and you'll get a very different viewpoint.

Cops were always bullies, at least until the citizens decided to get off their fat, beer drinking asses and said enough.
We are now headed back into the old mold of policing(ie beat a confession out of a suspect, any suspect) because there is much less tolerance for criminal behavior and a correspondingly permissive attitude on civilian side for police misbehavior (ie we collectively look the other way if we think the "perp" deserves what's coming to them).

OpenID sigbouncer March 07, 2016 3:14 PM  

"Bullshit. That's such a complete nonsense. The best military guys are the ones who talk about nothing else, because it is their life.

You couldn't spend 30 seconds with my uncle without him telling you why you should join the Marines... and in five minutes you'd be convinced and ready to sign up.

It usually took about 90 minutes for the spell to wear off"

Thanks for sharing that.

My dad could be very convincing as well and somewhat outspoken (usually with us kids) about the benefits and learnings with his branch of service. Or when talking with other vets. But was not a war veteran.

My grandfather, who was a veteran of two wars (WWII and Korean), never spoke a word of his service. He was highly decorated as far as grunts go. Still have all his medals framed here at the house. My grandfather was one of only two men in town who ever stood up to my dad. Once holding his ground on his front porch, as my dad shot the porch lights out just above his head.

My friend growing up, who was a Seal, never spoke of his service either. He saw covert action. Another friend who was a Ranger was very braggadocious about his boot camp and plane jumps. His favorite story was talking about the gas house in boot camp where he was the last one out and decided to drop at the door and do pushups. So they locked him back in there for a couple more minutes until he came out choking and puking on his knees. He never saw action. Another friend who was a marine rarely spoke of his service. He never saw action either.

So in my experiences (albeit a small sample size) with veterans has been that the real true life ass kickers don't have much story to tell with respects to their service.

I've also noticed this with a guy like Jesse Ventura. Who has claimed to be a Seal, despite being an underwater demo guy.

But there are always exceptions to the rule and my experiences obviously do not equal yours in this instance.

Blogger Noah B March 07, 2016 3:56 PM  

I've known many combat veterans and none were very keen on talking about the fighting they had done. The only one who seemed pretty much at peace with it was a Marine arty guy who had been to both Iraq wars. He too talked about how much he loved the Marines, but he never went into any specifics about battle.

Fakers abound. My high school hired an "ex-SEAL" as a motivational speaker for years, and in college I read about him being exposed by Stolen Valor. A guy I used to work with faked being an Airborne Ranger.

Blogger Phelps March 07, 2016 4:03 PM  

Everyone seems to forget that the full saying is "one bad apple RUINS THE WHOLE BARREL." It's literal -- if you store a barrel of apples and one single apple is rotten, when you open the barrel up, they will have ALL rotted.

When you find a "bad apple" YOU MERCILESSLY CULL IT. The badge sniffers never want to do that.

Blogger Noah B March 07, 2016 4:04 PM  

Now that I posted that, I'm remembering my high school economics teacher who was in the first Gulf War. He absolutely loved talking about incinerating Iraqis with MLRS.

Blogger Harold March 07, 2016 5:12 PM  

The civilian/non-civilian mindset seems to be at play in any para-military organization, when the actual terms used in the handbooks and instructions are uniformed/non-uniformed. I worked in a prison system for a while as a non-uniformed person.
I was told at one place we had one employee who talked all the time about his Purple Heart, his time as a POW, and the things he did in the Army. I never heard any of his stories. I spent 21 years in the Navy. I'd have called him out on his BS- he never served a day in any branch. The secretaries and inmates were impressed by his stories.

I have sea stories, which I'll tell when I have a proper audience. But I don't talk about my service all the time. My eldest has combat stories, which he tells to newbies who haven't yet seen it, in order to prep them some. But he doesn't talk about it all the time. My second son didn't see combat, but as an intelligence specialist, has been responsible for enemy deaths. And someday, if they declassify the missions, he'll tell me stories.

Everyone has different experiences, and some talk all the time, some don't. Had a friend who knew his father was a Marine, knew he had had been in Korea, but that's it. Mentioned one day that whenever he complained he was cold, his father would look at him and say, "Son, you don't know what cold is." hearing just that, I asked "Was your father at Chosin?" He had never heard of Chosin (public education is horrid that way), and I told him to look it up. He did, and poked around, and found his father HAD been there. He gained a whole new respect for his father. Who still never talked about it except to tell anyone who complained about the cold that they didn't know what cold was.

Blogger clk March 07, 2016 7:17 PM  

Yeah .. my two 10lb dogs are a risk to some fat cop... i dont normally go for violence but you shot my dogs, better shoot me too...

Biggest problem we have with the police is all the ex miliatry now working as cops...the fact of the matter is cops should be required to have atleast a BS degree and should undergo intensive screening mentally before being allowed to carry a gun and shot people.

Blogger Accordion Goose March 07, 2016 8:17 PM  

The New Brunswick Police Association is a criminal organization.

Anonymous Brett March 07, 2016 9:38 PM  

I texted the link of this topic / post to my brother who is a police officer in IL, around noon today. I told him I sent it to him because as a cop, he may find it interesting to read what others are saying about his chosen profession.

His response: "Absolute garbage by a worthless slug".

I was busy at work and only had time to sent a basic reply stating that I've been reading Vox for years and I'd hardly classify him as a "worthless slug".

His next response: "He's an F'ing anti-cop shirt bird. Defend him all you want, but I AM actually a cop and he can go screw himself and his extremely biased perception and opinion of law enforcement. If you feel the same as he does about law enforcement officers, do me a favor and lose my cell number and don't send me this crap again. I only know a few cops out of the MANY that I do knowthat actually fit his viewpoint, and that is a VERY small number. Until he's done the job of a LEO, he will never know or understand that of which he speaks. That's all, I'm out".

Now, I sent him the link thinking he'd have a thoughtful take on it, but instead he takes it personally and "goes off" on me. In some ways, his response validates this post.

So there you have it, a police officer's take on the subject.

OpenID tacticaltoolbox March 07, 2016 9:38 PM  

IN RE: original post

funny how a dog is property when owned by civilians and cannot understand deadly force scenarios, yet a police dog is a legal OFFICER who also cannot be held accountable for force used, but it's basically murder if a civilian kills one.

Blogger IreneAthena March 08, 2016 1:15 AM  

Years ago, when I wasn't as shy as I am these days about commenting, a reader from Vox Popoli recognized me in the comments section of "Pro Libertate" -- it wasn't surprising that the two blogs would have some cross-readership.

William N. Grigg is as passionate a second amendment defender as you're likely to find, and these days, his blog is almost entirely dedicated to documenting the myriad abuses by our "boys in blue." I feel so sad for the dedicated "good apples" all around the country who are doing their best to serve and protect, keeping their heads down until retirement, surrounded by incompetent, and worse, corrupted colleagues.

Some of you here may remember an old friend.

Anonymous That Would Be Telling March 08, 2016 3:13 AM  

@94 Brett:

I only know a few cops out of the MANY that I do know that actually fit his viewpoint, and that is a VERY small number.

Without your brother saying how he and the other "good cops" in his unit saw to it that "this VERY small number" of "bad apples" were drummed out of both the unit and law enforcement altogether (well, at least in my state a certification is required, which has been withdrawn in egregious cases), his dismissive and defensive reply just confirms the thesis that there are essentially no "good cops", that one bad apple spoils the rest.

If I were you, I would welcome, if not return 10 fold the shunning as I would from a relative who was part of the Sicherheitspolizei.

Anonymous JAG March 08, 2016 12:16 PM  

https://photographyisnotacrime.com/2016/03/07/west-virginia-woman-acquitted-for-stepping-between-dog-and-cop-who-wanted-to-kill-it/

This article fits right in with what we are discussing here. Piece of shit cop was going to shoot this woman's dog so she stopped him. He arrests her, it goes to trial, the cop lies his ass off, the public defender has a conflict of interest for which she is fired, and thankfully the jury nullified this horrific abuse of a citizen.

The cop claimed that he was trained to shoot all dogs regardless of chained up and friendly or not which is more evidence supporting what was posted in this discussion. Makes me sick to my stomach.

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