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Wednesday, March 30, 2016

An ominous pattern

Consider the following facts:
  1. Russia has withdrawn elements of its tactical forces in Syria, while leaving most of its anti-aircraft and strategic air strike capabilities in place.
  2. ISIS lost control of Palmyra to Assad and the Syrian army.
  3. For over a month, there have been repeated stories about a joint Saudi-Turkish alliance preparing to invade Syria, ostensibly to fight ISIS, but actually to attack Assad and the legitimate Syrian government.
  4. The US government just withdrew all family members of U.S. troops and diplomats from its installations in Turkey, ostensibly out of fears of terrorist attack.
  5. The NATO treaty requires the USA to defend Turkey if attacked.
  6. Donald Trump has, for the first time in decades, raised serious questions, in public, about US membership in NATO.
  7. ISIS is a creation, at least in part of the USA, and the US military made no serious attempts to defeat ISIS in Syria whereas the Russian-Syrian-Iranian alliance managed to repeatedly defeat ISIS and drive it back in just 22 weeks of operations.
What does this suggest? I think it indicates that all sides are preparing for a Turko-Syrian war, which may be a proxy for a US-Russian war in the same way that the war in the Crimea was. I'm not certain whether the US is actively on the side of Turkey or if it is washing its hands of what looks like an increasingly unstable pair of proxies in Turkey and the Islamic State. For the sake of global stability, I sincerely hope the latter is the case.

There are some indications that the US has wisely decided to stay out of it. Just over a month ago, the American Free Press reported:
Moscow has made it clear to Washington it will retaliate if the Turks send forces into Syria. Moscow has made it clear to Washington it will retaliate if the Turks send forces into Syria. The Russians are convinced the Saudis are pressing Turkey to so something militarily before Russian airpower eliminates all the extreme Islamic groups the Turks and Saudis have been supporting. The source says NATO leaders in Europe have told Washington that Turkey and the Saudis will have to go it alone if they engage Russia.
Also, the fact that the US refused Turkey's demands that it cut ties with a Kurdish group fighting in Syria bodes well for avoiding a US-Russian war. The fact that Turkey might also be facing a civil war in its south may be an important factor in its apparent decision to get directly involved in Syria before the government forces wipe out ISIS there.

In any event, the recent withdrawal of Russian and US personnel suggests that things are likely to heat up in Syria soon. It is worth noting, too, that these recent events show how insanely wrong John McCain was to advocate expanding NATO to include Ukraine, as that would have either a) shattered NATO or b) triggered a US-Russian war last year. The fact that the USA appears to be leaving its NATO ally Turkey to go to war on its own tends to indicate the former.

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74 Comments:

Anonymous Jeremy March 30, 2016 5:44 AM  

Normally I would say that the US, while often foolish is not that foolish. But funding Muslim rebels to win a geopolitical point against Russia even after doing so in Afghanistan in the 80s proved such a disaster has hurt what little faith I had in the basic competency of US policy makers.

Blogger Lazarus March 30, 2016 5:53 AM  

Meanwhile, Debka claims Egypt is desperate to get intervention from the US to keep ISIS from the gates of Cairo. May have to get Russia instead?


I have come here to seek a new beginning between the United States and Muslims around the world; one based upon mutual interest and mutual respect; and one based upon the truth that America and Islam are not exclusive, and need not be in competition OBAMA 2009

Blogger Kona Commuter March 30, 2016 5:58 AM  

Russia isn't fucking around anymore. I've read people say that Putin talks the big talk regarding their nukes. I don't think he's bluffing.

Blogger Jew613 March 30, 2016 5:59 AM  

This is one of the dangers of civil wars, they tend to draw in other states. Erdogan has the fantasy of restoring the Ottoman empire. An invasion of Syria would be a good first step which the Turks while also showing the Kurds whose boss.

Blogger VD March 30, 2016 5:59 AM  

May have to get Russia instead?

Considering that ISIS appears to be a US-Israeli creation, one would assume so. This looks increasingly like a repeat of the Afghanistan mujahideen debacle, where a force created to be a weapon against an enemy turns on its makers.

Of course, turning to Russia necessarily means turning to Iran, as Hezbollah is providing some of the ground forces in the Syrian operations.

Blogger Ahazuerus March 30, 2016 6:00 AM  

@1

You're not nearly cynical enough. The Afghan experiment has been a stunning success, leading to a global and eternal conflict - the biggest opportunity for permanent expansion of money and power since the Cold War.

Blogger Shimshon March 30, 2016 6:07 AM  

@2 I wondered the same thing as I'm reading the article. It must dawn on him how ISIS is getting armed.

Blogger AdognamedOp March 30, 2016 6:11 AM  

Glad the Ruskies helped take back Palmyra but the devastation the Muzzies inflicted on those Historic sites is hard to look at.

Blogger Laramie Hirsch March 30, 2016 6:38 AM  

@8 Damn straight.

I'm afraid that the future holds a world where the world wonders and icons that we've treasured for centuries shall be in ruins.

All we'll be left at that point is each other, the Truth, and the Abyss.

Blogger Sherwood family March 30, 2016 6:45 AM  

Installation was in Adana and Izmir. Looks like those locations have been on "authorized departure" for some time and have recently gone on "ordered departure." However, it looks like nothing else is shaking up in the rest of Turkey and diplomatic posts are still in full swing in Istanbul and Ankara. So far it is only in the Southeast. Not what exactly this portends. A buddy in Istanbul felt like it was not too far out of the ordinary for what has been happening in that part of the country for awhile.

Blogger Sherwood family March 30, 2016 6:46 AM  

Sorry, that should read, "I don't know what exactly this portends."

Anonymous Philipp March 30, 2016 6:52 AM  

Article 5 of the NATO treaty does not automatically require the US to defend Turkey.

Article 5

"The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area."

The key words here are "such action as it deems necessary". There is no automatic requirement to use force. It depends on the situation.

Remember that the German Chancellor Helmut Kohl made it very clear in 1990/91 that Germany would not defend Turkey if attacked by Iraq.

I have also hade a retired senior officer of a European NATO tell me that if Russia attacked the Baltic states and the US could or would not take action, nothing would happened. The Europeans would do "nothing".

If the Turksy invades Syria and gets in a war with Russia, they are on their own.

Blogger Cataline Sergius March 30, 2016 6:54 AM  

The loss of Palmyra is a serious blow to the Caliphate. A big part of Al-Bhagdadi's claim to legitimacy as Caliph is in holding and expanding physical territory.

They've been stalled for a while, which is why they have been backing foreign terrorist ops and claiming that is how they are expanding territory.

Losing territory is a very big problem for them. Once the Caliphate starts to look like a loser, Muslim fatalism will swing into play. They will shrug and say, "In šāʾ Allāh" and start forgetting about ISIS as fast possible.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan March 30, 2016 6:54 AM  

Would the crooks in Saudi risk their oil production and shipping facilities by opening a larger war? A cursory look at a map doesn't look too inviting, looks like the Turkish army could drive deep but then have two exposed flanks to two fairly powerful enemies still entrenched within their strategic strong points.

Anonymous Eric the Red March 30, 2016 6:58 AM  

"The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area."
Articele 5, The North Atlantic Treat

If Turkey decides to attack Syria, then that does not fall under the rubric of the treaty, and NATO has no responsbility to respond accordingly.

Now having gotten that out of the way, fuck Turkey and fuck Saudia Arabia, and let their respective governments be reduced to running from the mobs as punishment for their multitudinous sins.

Anonymous Philipp March 30, 2016 7:17 AM  

From the BBC: "Syrian military sources quoted by AFP news agency said the army was targeting IS-held towns including al-Qaryatain, south-west of Palmyra, and Sukhnah towards the north-east."

Blogger Cataline Sergius March 30, 2016 7:21 AM  

One big factor now in play is that Obama now has less than 300 days left in office.

Anyone who wants to get some business taken care of while a weak America is especially weak needs to get it down now.

It's possible the Turks are just going to pound the hell out the Kurds and that's it. Adana and Izmir were PKK operational territories in the 90s. It's where they tried to kill me, as a matter of fact.

Possibly the dependents evac is in preparation against potential PKK reprisal.

Anonymous Bob March 30, 2016 7:24 AM  

I often read this site "Hartgeld" which I think is run by a maniac.

They have a good collection of stories every day though.

Anyway, this guy claims now for years that there is actually a plan by elites - the real elites who hold vast quantities of gold - to crash and burn everything down. In the making for 50 years. And the means to do so is through the great war of the West with Islam. Muslims will be encouraged to rise up and then - after lot's of bloodshed, be removed from the West. Also, the ruling class will be removed, all socialisms will be destroyed.

Blogger Raziel Walker March 30, 2016 7:37 AM  

What crimean war? It was just Russia marching in and informing the world of the new status quo.

Anonymous Quartermaster March 30, 2016 7:45 AM  

Insane McCain wanted to bring Georgia into NATO. Bringing Ukraine in would be a stupid move just from a logistical standpoint. Bringing Georgia in would an act of insanity similar to the guarantee France and Great Britain gave Poland in the 30s.

@19 There is a war in Ukraine. It's Russia vs Ukraine. Russia has sensed weakness and Putin is trying to revive at least Tsarist Russia, with himself as Tsar, or perhaps even the Soviet Union, with him as General Secretary of CPSU. However, in the process, he's just dragging the country down doing stuff the country can't afford.

Israel had little to do with the formation of ISIS. That falls to the incompetence of the US in Iraq beginning with Bremer's dismissal of the Iraqi Army.

Blogger Aeoli Pera March 30, 2016 7:59 AM  

As a USG official wow, just wow. One of the ways you can determine the relationship between two countries is the way it manages or doesn't its border.

Blogger Aeoli Pera March 30, 2016 8:03 AM  

As the first female SEAL to become a four-star general, I am seriously crying right now.

Blogger Chrom March 30, 2016 8:46 AM  

@22 So brave. Thank you for that.

Blogger James Jones March 30, 2016 8:49 AM  

This is spot on. ISIS' growth came from a belief that 'this is it' - the rising of the black flag - Allah's favour.

That just needed to be dented by some big losses to make them a less attractive proposition to potential recruits from across the globe.

Blogger James Jones March 30, 2016 8:49 AM  

This is spot on. ISIS' growth came from a belief that 'this is it' - the rising of the black flag - Allah's favour.

That just needed to be dented by some big losses to make them a less attractive proposition to potential recruits from across the globe.

Anonymous redsash March 30, 2016 9:04 AM  

Armenia is now Russia's best bud and the Russians are moving troops there as I type. Look for a greater Armenia to get access to the Black Sea. Also, look for a new Kurdistan to buffer Armenia and parts of Turkey, Iraq, and Syria. Russia's main concern is access to its Black Sea fleet and Putin is very uneasy having Turkey control both sides of the Bosporus. I would venture around 50 neutron bombs with a quick lethal radiation burst radius of 7 miles leaving structures intact and safe for an occupying army within days. Look for joint Russian Bulgarian control of this area. This will make the 7th Russo-Turkish war. Putin will not attack Ukraine in order to establish land bridge to Crimea as they have begun work on a hugh bridge between Azov & Black Sea. Putin has home in Sochii and man's home/castle comes into play. Putin wants the Black Sea the way Jefferson wanted west of the Mississippi. Russians look upon Baltic states as New England bed and breakfast stops.

Anonymous ZhukovG March 30, 2016 9:12 AM  

The return home of Crimea was a decisive victory for the Russian Federation and rendered the US operation in Ukraine pointless. Ukraine will likely end up partitioned between Russia, Hungary and Poland.

Erdogan appears to be nuts, but hopefully his Generals are not. If the Generals are on board with this insanity then Turkey commands the 2nd largest military in NATO after the US. I don't think the Syrian Army, even with Russian can stop them in Syria and Russia may be forced to strike targets in Turkey itself.

Turkey is also cozying up to Ukraine, probably hoping to use them as cannon fodder and divert Russia's attention closer to home.

Interesting times.

OpenID genericviews March 30, 2016 9:18 AM  

The NATO treaty requires the USA to defend Turkey if attacked.

As 12/Phillip said, this doesn't carry any obligations with it. But even if it did, it doesn't spell out what level of obligation we feel. We could decide honor is satisfied by sending Turkey 35 military lawyers as advisers and logistical support in the form of 25 Toyota Land Cruisers.

Anonymous Instasetting March 30, 2016 9:21 AM  

The muj led to the breaking of the Soviet Empire, and to taking the threat of Globsl Thermonuclear War off the table. Helping them was not a mistake by Reagan unless you prefer saluting the Hammer and Sickle.

Blogger JohnG March 30, 2016 9:24 AM  

There was some talk in the shop about Vlad reacting to something Iran was up to.

OpenID genericviews March 30, 2016 9:30 AM  

... we could even give Turkey the same support they gave us when we invaded Iraq.

1. Overflight and refueling rights in the USA.
2. The promise of transhipping their troops through our territory, in exchange for $6 BILLION dollars, which we will renege on at the last minute when our people find out.
3. A few hundred military advisors who will offer no advice, but will show up for meals on time every day.

Blogger TontoBubbaGoldstein March 30, 2016 9:41 AM  

genericviews wrote:The NATO treaty requires the USA to defend Turkey if attacked.

As 12/Phillip said, this doesn't carry any obligations with it. But even if it did, it doesn't spell out what level of obligation we feel. We could decide honor is satisfied by sending Turkey 35 military lawyers as advisers and logistical support in the form of 25 Toyota Land Cruisers.



Let's send Lindsey Graham!

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 March 30, 2016 9:57 AM  

Wait, NATO is still around?

Blogger JohnG March 30, 2016 9:58 AM  

Isis is more of an inadvertent creation of the US. The Iraq insurgency started as a result of deBaathification. The killing of Zarqawi and subsequent surge only rocked AQI for a year, and then after that they started doing business much more discretely (only a little less bloody, less bombs and beheadings). And then we left (which is fine, the results are predictable when the US tried to use a colonial occupation strategy - it doesn't work if you don't plan to stay (or execute it right)). Baghdadi just decided he didn't want to dance to anybody else's tune and made his move. The rest, the training of so called "moderates", etc, totally ignores tribal relationships and that half of these guys are related to each other via a cousin 3 or 4 steps removed, and the alliances shift all the time.

Blogger JohnG March 30, 2016 10:12 AM  

@33 not really.

Blogger Cogitans Iuvenis March 30, 2016 10:24 AM  

I say that if Russia wants to exert influence over the middle east let them. The whole region is nothing but an eternally bruning conflageration between tribal peoples. The US would have been better off if we never got involved. A pox on it all.

Anonymous Wooly Phlox March 30, 2016 10:25 AM  

I don't know if I learned of it here or not, but Obama and Erdogan are set to, this week, do the ribbon-cutting and grand opening of the USA's largest and first two-minaret mosque. Scary that Erdogan is even allowed into this country.

And imagine if a Republican POTUS and, say, Rick Warren, were to do the same with the "largest evangelical Christian church complex in the nation". Just imagine the outcry.

It's in Maryland, too. Named after a Queen who was named after the Mother of Christ.

And we know that Erdogan said: “The mosques are our barracks, the domes our helmets, the minarets our bayonets and the faithful our soldiers...”

Smack-dab in the middle of Mary-Land. That's like two middle fingers at the same time. Double-deuce!

Anonymous Drog March 30, 2016 10:29 AM  

Destroying ISIS will only do two things: 1) spread the dispersed further, probably in large refugee waves towards Europe. 2) Suppress Islamic imperialist ambitions for another decade or so.

In the end it doesn't matter what they do if the West doesn't harden itself to external turmoils. Considering the decadency and infantile naivety of Whites, that ain't going to happen.

Assuming a Turkish/Saudi assault on Syria occurred, and Russia did get pulled in, it would only accelerate the Islamic invasion of Europe. Turkey would have waves of it's own refugees flooding north. Turks, in the short term, would lose to Russia. In the long run, they'd get over it now that they have million of more Islamic nationals inside of Europe.

The long game is all that matters to Islam. Short term losses don't mean anything when their are larger prizes to win.

Anyways, this all seems like a rigged game so Israel can win.

Anonymous Bz March 30, 2016 10:29 AM  

3. A few hundred military advisors who will offer no advice, but will show up for meals on time every day.

Make that military diversity advisors with performance targets.

Anonymous redsash March 30, 2016 10:33 AM  

#29: Afghanistan did not break up the USSR. You might as well say that Matthias Rust and his piper cub broke up the USSR. No, God placed Gorbachev in power who introduced perestroika and glasnost (truth and openness). Communism's lies were laid bare for all to see. The pretense could not continue.

And now God has given Russia Putin and God has given the USA Obama. Sort of clear who now has God's favor.

Anonymous Wooly Phlox March 30, 2016 10:41 AM  

@40 redsash

So it would seem.

I trust everyone here has already read Oleg Atbashian's latest epic essay?

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2016/03/some_of_my_best_friends_are_trump_supporters.html

Read them all, if you haven't.

http://www.americanthinker.com/author/oleg_atbashian/

Blogger Phelps March 30, 2016 10:43 AM  

Another thing to remember on the timing is that on April 4, Greece is closing its border and deporting everything to Turkey. Turkey has to have something to do with all those FSA bodies -- might as well use them to reinforce the attackers. After all, they are just "refugees" being sent back to where they came from.

Add that ticking clock to Obama's last 300 days, and if we are going to kick off WW3, this is as likely a time as any.

Anonymous Wooly Phlox March 30, 2016 10:47 AM  

Oleg is a giant among men, IMO.

I've never even commented at the People's Cube.

I'm not quite tall enough for that ride.

I just read, and attempt to understand.

Anonymous BGKB March 30, 2016 10:48 AM  

I've read people say that Putin talks the big talk regarding their nukes. I don't think he's bluffing

I was hoping Putin would nuke meca when it was packed.

the future holds a world where the world wonders and icons that we've treasured for centuries shall be in ruins

I guess its a good thing moslems are not smart enough to destroy the pyramids.

As the first female SEAL to become a four-star general, I am seriously crying right now.

As the first 500 pound black lesbian rangerette I march on my stomach.

rendered the US operation in Ukraine pointless. Ukraine will likely end up partitioned between Russia, Hungary and Poland.

Joe Biden's cocaine snorting son already has the Ukraine's petrol reserves.

Blogger Badger Brigadon March 30, 2016 10:51 AM  

Russian Air-to-Surface power is nothing to sneeze at. While American Air-to-armor power is devastating due to it's prior use of Warthogs, If Russia is talking about eliminating ISIS ground forces with air power, their outstanding helo forces are certainly capable of doing it.

Surface control via Air power has always been something the Russians excelled at compared to America... Only our superior air-to-air capability could prevent Russians from rolling over our ground forces.

Man, I really don't want a Russian Proxy war... a direct Military cooperation exercise could snap Isis like a twig in no time, with very little military espionage.

Blogger Badger Brigadon March 30, 2016 10:56 AM  

"As the first female SEAL to become a four-star general, I am seriously crying right now."

As the first martian to walk on the surface of Proxima Centauri, I defacate respectfully on your shadow.

Blogger frenchy March 30, 2016 10:57 AM  

@12 Philip,

I think the key language in Article 5 is what US and European lawyers will pick up on--"An armed attack against..." In other words, "You were attacked first." If Turkey initiates, I'm sure the rest of NATO will use this language as justification to not assist.

Anonymous fp March 30, 2016 11:00 AM  

Hedley Lamarr: "Qualifications?"
John McCain: "War, politics, immigration, and war."
Hedley Lamarr: "You said 'war' twice."
John McCain: "I like war."

Anonymous Wooly Phlox March 30, 2016 11:03 AM  

@46

I mainly visit this site for the poetry.

Anonymous A Visitor March 30, 2016 11:40 AM  

Vox, you forgot #8. The Pentagon armed faction and CIA armed faction are now fighting each other.

Given we have an MEU providing artillery support in Iraq and I can guarantee SF embeded with Iraqi Army and CIA running all over the place, we may most likely be very quietly actively on Turkey's side.

Ah, good old 3rd generation warfare to start...over what? Turkey doesn't like Assad. This is gonna get ugly, fast.

@3 Thomas Schelling would be extremely proud of Putin and his first stirke doctrine using tactical nuclear warheads. I want to point something out here. I was at my parish weeks ago after Mass and I heard a couple of senior citizens talking about how they didn't want a certain presidential candidate holding the office because of him having his finger on the nuclear button. I quickly jumped in and explained how it requires two man authentication so they shouldn't worry. General ignorance on how US authorization works not to mention the difference between tactical and strategic nukes are to be employed piss me off.

@10 Given that you're in Turkmenistan and a bit closer to the action, anything more on the unclass side you'd be willing to say?

@13 I'd love whoever takes Raqqa to have some Go-Pros attached to show firsthand what happens to goat ****ing scumsuckers like ISIS.

@31 Payback's a ****!

@36 Let them get involved and let there be destabilization. The Saudis and OPEC cut production and bump up oil prices. We spin up fracking and we win.

@37 Queen Oureda?

@45 The S-300 and 400 are quite impressive. What if this thing spills out in to the Med or the Black Sea? Will we seen Sunburns used?

Blogger tweell March 30, 2016 11:40 AM  

Yet another reason to vote Trump - get US out of NATO!

Anonymous TheSmokingMan#3424 March 30, 2016 11:49 AM  

slightly o/t, but on the domestic front: http://stopshouting.blogspot.com/2016/03/calls-to-debaathification.html

Blogger Miguel D'Anconia March 30, 2016 12:06 PM  

The madness of US empire has to come to an end. Obviously never winning a war since WWII (don't give me the BS of not being allowed to or the crap about Granada either) hasn't deterred the madness. If the US is involved hopefully it gets its ass kicked 6 ways to Sunday so this garbage comes to an end.

Anonymous JamesD March 30, 2016 12:24 PM  

The big loser in this is Israel, which doesn't bode well for a happy ending. The start of the Syrian conflict dates back to the 2006 Israel/Hezbollah war, which for all intents and purposes Israel lost. After that, Assad's days were numbered.

If things end as they appear, Hezbollah and Iran are huge winners, and Assad will be more obliged to support Hezbollah than ever. That is something Israel can not accept.

Keep in mind that Turkey and Israel are allies also. Watch the Sibel Edmonds deposition on youtube, it is an eye opener how closely they work together.

Anonymous Fran March 30, 2016 1:48 PM  

I don't get how or why Israel is involved with creating Isis.

Blogger Curtis March 30, 2016 2:27 PM  

@45

In every conceivable war-gaming exercise, Russia hands NATO its ass in the Balkans.

Israel war plane enters Syrian airspace. Israel war plane goes blank. Russia says bye-bye. Israel war plane high-tails back to Israel. Russia's jamming capabilities is no myth. They tried desperately to sucker Russia into turning it on for an extended period of time with the brouhaha between Turkey and Russia. So much for air to air to ground.

The fact is, Russia, and China, are fast out performing America's military tech. And, as for America flexing Naval power in the Chinese straight, China, and America, knows in a hot war, America's Navy is a sitting duck.

America think: One of Russia's newest Armata T-14 medium tank goes kaput in the last Russian military parade. Americans laugh at Russia's "vaunted" military/technology power because of that. Because, ya know, that has never happened to a American/NATO tank.

I'm thinking, some tank mechanics are going to get their ass chewed. Because, it happens.

We are not changing the battlefield dynamics, Russia and China are.

Blogger Curtis March 30, 2016 2:37 PM  

@55

State Dept./NATO/ISIS/(Israel):

http://bit.ly/1pTCjuL - http://bit.ly/1ZG1X23 - http://bit.ly/1Sq6L8J - http://bit.ly/1WSx4Wt -

http://bit.ly/1Ry5Xli

Anonymous Philipp March 30, 2016 2:39 PM  

47 Frenchy

You are right of course but I would expect the Turks to claim one way or another that they were attacked and that only invaded Syria in self-defence. Nobody will believe them of course.

Blogger Curtis March 30, 2016 2:50 PM  

@54 When you understand that Russia is not the biblical North, but Turkey, you will also understand that Turkey is not Israels friend.

Also, take a look (Go0gle) at the Club of Rome (UN NGO) map circa 1973. Does region 7 look familiar today? By the way, there is no Israel in region 7.

To and fro.

Blogger ray March 30, 2016 3:07 PM  

"The NATO treaty requires the USA to defend Turkey if attacked.
Donald Trump has, for the first time in decades, raised serious questions, in public, about US membership in NATO."


Right. The NATO reference would not have been casual. Some of these enumerated elements are likely inked to the shoot-down of the russky jet. No way that Mr. Turkle does that unilaterally -- probably a proxy move for the U.S., Iran, or more likely, Russia itself, given the inexplicable circumstances surrounding that event.

Turkey is almost 100 percent muslim. If the U.S. is Islam's Great Satan, and popular support is Islamic, then maintaining a military alliance with the U.S. via NATO is ?. Very ?. Kemal Ataturk is way dead.

As for America, she has no religion except money, and it's a long way from Fat Columbia to Ankara. Folks it's a blood-red flag with an Islamic moon and star. I don't think they're big on Jesus.

Anonymous BGKB March 30, 2016 3:33 PM  

As bath house Barry Obama frees druggies and avowed terrorist moslems, the Leavenworth 10 sit in jail for saving US lives, which goes against bath house barry's rules of engagement.
http://www.anonymousconservative.com/blog/r-strategists-are-disloyal-k-strategists-are-loyal/

"This is rabbit 101. Free the terrorists because imprisoning them is inhumane, but keep our soldiers imprisoned, because they are bad people. Most of rabbit logic is an excuse to screw over the K-strategists in our societies, and not be punished for it"

Trump should offer to pardon Col James Ersland, a hero for killing armed robbers in a pharmacy that Holder went after for shooting blacks with ski masks on.

The fact is, Russia, and China, are fast out performing America's affirmative action hire military tech

Anonymous BGKB March 30, 2016 4:09 PM  

DC Pimpette's attorney plans to release data on Presidential candidate on Supreme Court steps. Is there anyway to take out a term life insurance policy on him?
http://www.thedailysheeple.com/dc-madam-attorney-says-hes-going-to-release-records-that-are-relevant-to-the-election_032016

Anonymous Garrulus March 30, 2016 4:39 PM  

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-03-30/russian-nuclear-ballistic-missile-iskander-spotted-syria

rumormill potential russian tactical nuke spotted near latakia airbase

Blogger Curtis March 30, 2016 4:45 PM  

By the way, when Turkey ultimately makes its push, it won't need NATO (plausible denial), other than the US/NATO military industrial complex. Although Northern Thunder petered out, it has shown that it is doable.

Turkey, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Bahrain, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, Pakistan, Malaysia, Turkey, Egypt, Morocco, Jordan, Sudan, etc.

This is why USNATO is so intent on putting a hedge around Russia.

Anyhow, (Club of) Rome: http://bit.ly/1Y19o2B meet Rome: http://bit.ly/1UDbjwy

Spit in their eye, and they call it dew.

You have to turn off the tunnel vision.

Anonymous The Kulak March 30, 2016 7:18 PM  

@ 56 and @64 "In every conceivable war-gaming exercise, Russia hands NATO its ass in the Balkans."

I think you were referring to the RAND Corporation study that caused a stir last year when they admitted the Russians could roll over the entire Baltics in about 72 hours or less. Damn that geography, next they'll tell us the Russians and Chinese couldn't occupy Cuba if they didn't want them to...when U.S. European Command sends out another press release about how we're prepositioning more equipment in Europe, aside from the Marine expeditionary forces amphibs and APCs locked in those deep Norwegian caves, the Russians are thinking 'great, more Kalibr/Iskander missile targets'.

"Israel war plane enters Syrian airspace. Israel war plane goes blank. Russia says bye-bye. Israel war plane high-tails back to Israel. Russia's jamming capabilities is no myth." Given that your English appears to be non-native, I'm sure Quartermaster or someone will be along shortly to brand you a Kremlin troll and the USS Donald Cook incident to be nothing more than a Russian 'sea story' if not active measures (nevermind that Lt. Gen. Ben Hodges NATO's no. 2 in Europe called Russian jamming capabilities 'eye watering' and DefenseNews actually admitted they're better on the ground than what the US Army can presently field).

Naturally, Quartermaster doesn't notice the swarms of aggressive and poor English typing trolls who attack anyone who criticizes NATO or U.S. policy in Ukraine as a Kremlin troll as the Kiev or Riga NATO Center for Information Excellence trolls that they are. The Riga trolls having slightly better English and being less Banderite or Nazi than many of the Ukro-'Bandera didna du nuthin all those 100,000 dead Poles during WWII murdered by the UPA are lies, all those Polish Catholic historians who hate the USSR must've fallen for Stalin's evil propaganda against glorious Galician leader Stepan'. Maybe Quartermaster should try publishing anything critical of couch potato the US/UK's go to couch potato info warrior @EliotHiggins on Twitter and watch the #MH17 hash tag guarding NATO/Kiev trolls go to work attacking him around the clock. Then come back and tell me with a straight face that all the trolls online work for the Kremlin.

As for Curtis comment @ 64, keep in mind this is the same Arab coalition that got their asses handed to them by a bunch of Houthi tribesmen in Yemen who barely had any Hezbollah training and with nary an Iranian Revolutionary Guardsman in sight. The Saudis have lost thousands of troops in Yemen now -- consider their Abrams and Bradleys getting lit up by the Allah snackbaring Houthis to be payback for the thousands of TOWs the Sauds and Turks sent to kill Syrian Arab Army soldiers. It seems to have never occured to Sultan Erdogan that for every TOW he sends to Syria a brand new Russian Kornet ATGM just might find its way to the PKK...

Anonymous The Kulak March 30, 2016 7:25 PM  

Excuse the typos in the post above, just started ranting a bit. And while I don't think the Iskander-M the Russians sent to Latakia has a nuclear warhead, for Sultan Erdogan, you never know. It most certainly is capable of blowing past those shiny new Franco-Italian air defense systems the Turkish military bought at Mach 5 and wiping out a command post full of Turks or at least blowing up Turkish air bases with 1,200 ib HE or alternatively, EMP warhead.

We shall see if the threat of Russian Kalibrs obliterating much of his air force on the ground, Iskanders killing Turkish generals or colonels in their bunkers, and FOABs frying the lead armored columns will continue to deter the Sultan or more accurately his commanders. My money would not be on a general Turkish-Syria/Iran/Russia war just yet. At least some Turks seem capable of realizing that the plan all along has been to fight Assad and Hezbollah, then Iran, and now the Russians to the last Arab jihadi/Ukrainian/Turk. 'Let's you and him fight' ala Iran-Iraq war is an overused strategy, as is 'we're really gonna send MANPADs to the Free Syrian Army this time' threats. The Sauds know if they seriously start spreading MANPADs all over the place their refinery at Jizan near the Red Sea gets hit by a big barrage of Houthi Tochka missiles, and the Houthis just might get a few SAMs from Iran to start shooting down KSA F-15s and UAE -16s by the bushel...

Anonymous The Kulak March 30, 2016 7:26 PM  

Also, this: https://twitter.com/Navsteva/status/715159854080532481

screw team 'Wahhabi ZioCon' as Michael D. Weiss calls himself and the rest of the morons at the Daily Beast.

Anonymous Clay March 30, 2016 7:40 PM  

Hell. Give the Finnish all the money and weapons, let them take over Europe.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash March 30, 2016 7:55 PM  

Clay wrote:Hell. Give the Finnish all the money and weapons, let them take over Europe.
I'm pretty sure most of us could live with that

Blogger Thucydides March 30, 2016 8:48 PM  

I will take issue with point 7, since the Russians did not put much effort into attacking ISIS, but spent the vast majority of their time and effort in crushing the various other anti-Assad militias and forces which were threatening to topple the regime and break the so called Shiite Crescent running from Iran to Lebanon.

Saudi Arabia and Turkey are interested in crushing Assad for their own reasons, which is to primarily break Iranian power in the region and isolate Iranian allies like Assad, Hezbollah and the Iraqi Shiites into smaller, disconnected pockets. While Saudi Arabia and Turkey have a vested interest in breaking Iranian power, their goals after that are not mutually compatible.

ISIS does serve both Saudi and Turkish interests, mostly as a source of radical Sunni fighters who can be turned against Iranian interests, but even then their goals are not exactly complimentary; the Turks see ISIS as a hammer to use against the Kurds, while the Saudis are looking longer term to create a scorched earth zone to make it difficult for Turkey to exercise its own long term goals of regional hegemony.

Really, people do things for their own reasons, and Americans (and Russians too, for that matter) step into conflicts like that at their own peril, or choose a side because it might support one of their long term strategic goals. Russia wants to influence the global oil market to increase their stranglehold on Europe, while America's main interest in the Middle East was to ensure the stable flow of oil to US trading partners.

Blogger The Other Robot March 30, 2016 10:25 PM  

@63: While that thing is nuclear capable, I doubt the Russians would put a nuke in Syria.

An FAE on the other hand ...

Blogger ray March 30, 2016 10:30 PM  

"Smack-dab in the middle of Mary-Land. That's like two middle fingers at the same time. Double-deuce!"


'Obie and Erdie's Most Excellent Goddess Adventure'. Coming to theatres everywhere.

Was not aware of this meeting, thanks. It certainly makes Turkle's recent activities more comprehensible.


Fidel then Erdie, B. Hussein is streakin'. Maybe they can convert Fidel to Allah?

Blogger Lazarus March 30, 2016 11:40 PM  

Thucydides wrote:I will take issue with point 7, since the Russians did not put much effort into attacking ISIS, but spent the vast majority of their time and effort in crushing the various other anti-Assad militias and forces which were threatening to topple the regime and break the so called Shiite Crescent running from Iran to Lebanon.



I don't know how you consider crippling the ISIS oil gravy train not going after ISIS. I am not sure either how taking the strategic city of Palmyra from ISIS was not going after ISIS either, but hey, what do I know.

Blogger Lazarus March 31, 2016 5:31 AM  




Russian nuclear-capable Iskander missiles deployed in Syria

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