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Wednesday, April 13, 2016

The anger is rising

Ron Paul correctly identifies two locuses of European anger at US foreign policy:
The anger is rising and there is no telling where it will end. In June, the United Kingdom will vote on whether to exit the European Union. The campaign for an exit is broad-based, bringing in conservatives, populists, and progressives. Regardless of the outcome, the vote should be considered very important. Europeans are tired of their unelected leaders in Brussels pushing them around and destroying their financial and personal security by following Washington’s foolish interventionism. No one can call any of these recent interventions a success and the Europeans know it.

One way or the other, the US empire is coming to an end. Either the money will go or the allies will go, but it cannot be sustained. The sooner the American people demand an end to these foolish policies the better.
Speaking as someone who is nominally an American living in Europe - although my European friends not infrequently hasten to add that they don't consider me one any longer - it has been absolutely astonishing to observe the change in European attitudes towards the USA and towards Americans over the last two decades.

When we first arrived here, everyone wanted to visit the USA. Being an American meant you were treated like a minor rock star, particularly if you could speak even a little of the native language. But over the last five years, attitudes have changed dramatically, particularly among the young. Nowadays, one is more likely to meet with narrowed eyes and suspicion than smiles and expressions of admiration.

Europeans know perfectly well who is behind the coups in Ukraine and the Middle East, the banking debacles, and the unelected EU officials in Brussels. And most of them are not particularly pleased with any of these events.

It's common for Americans to sneer at Europeans and brag about how they had to "defend Europe". But what history-challenged Americans always seem to forget is that all they were doing was defending one set of Europeans from another. And the two most recent American interventions in Europe have been a) the overthrow of the Ukrainian government and b) preventing the Christian Serbs from defeating the Muslim Bosnians.

Labels:

124 Comments:

Blogger Josh April 13, 2016 1:28 PM  

Loci

Anonymous Big Bill April 13, 2016 1:36 PM  

How many millions of lives would have been saved if Wilson did not enmesh us in WWI?

Blogger Josh April 13, 2016 1:39 PM  

although my European friends not infrequently hasten to add that they don't consider me one any longer

Dat magik dirt doe!

Anonymous Steve April 13, 2016 1:41 PM  

Ukrainian prime minister Yatsenyuk resigned, just four days after the Dutch voted against Ukraine joining the European Union.

Good.


Strictly speaking, it was a referendum on a "trade association", not EU membership, but even the dogs on the street know what that means.

No harm to Ukranians, who are a likeable people, but why in the name of all that is Niko Bellic would we want another 45 million Eastern Europeans given a free ticket to come here?

We have enough foreigners as it is. The EU is already falling apart as it is. Western Europe's overly generous and financially unsustainable welfare states are stretched to breaking point as it is.

If Ukraine can't live with its neighbour Russia, well - tough titty said the kitty.

Britain needs a new foreign policy, going by the acronym of NOMFUP.

Blogger Laramie Hirsch April 13, 2016 1:41 PM  

I knew this would happen. Been wanting to emigrate to Europe, myself. Kind of hard with four kids.

Anonymous Eduardo, the jokester April 13, 2016 1:45 PM  

Hey Voxy! Were born European in the USA ;-)?

XD!

Anonymous VFM #6306 April 13, 2016 1:50 PM  

American In Name Ubication.

Wait a minute.

You're AINU?

Blogger ScottD April 13, 2016 1:51 PM  

So young Europeans look askance when you say you are an American? Big deal, young "Americans" do the same thing. America has made plenty of mistakes, but don't ignore 50+ years of anti-American propaganda by the left, which magnified America's sins while whitewashing others'.

Blogger Technomad April 13, 2016 1:54 PM  

If the Serbs (or any Balkan people) are Christians, then Jesus Christ was not one. If Jesus was stupid enough to show his face in Belgrade, they'd have him nailed up in a heartbeat, and be playing for his raiment with loaded dice.

Blogger dc.sunsets April 13, 2016 1:54 PM  

Pax Americana didn't have all that much peace in it. One boutique war after another (sometimes several at once), suppressing popular uprisings against vicious dictators, etc., all evidence that Butler's "War is a Racket" was correct all along.

What will happen if the urge for real, unlimited warfare arrives in North America? Will men, whipped into a killing frenzy as history records, be as easily manipulated and channeled as before, or will this one break out and turn into a Hobbesian State of Nature, of "every tribe for itself?"

Blogger VD April 13, 2016 1:55 PM  

America has made plenty of mistakes, but don't ignore 50+ years of anti-American propaganda by the left, which magnified America's sins while whitewashing others'.

You completely missed the point. Try reading it all again.

Blogger Alexander April 13, 2016 1:55 PM  

Yeah, I have to say: I'm happy to say that fed.gov has done all the things from the Bosnia to Ukraine...

But let's not deny European agency. Merkel would happily cuck her own people - and the progressive Germans are happy to help her - without any aid necessary from the USA. Brussels and the EU and all its totalitarian, anti-national agenda have been the wet dreams of European mandarins from a time when America was just an itch in Britain's jockstrap.

Blogger Gaiseric April 13, 2016 1:56 PM  

The feeling is mutual. The globalist agenda has hardly benefited the average American any more than it has the average European. And it's clear that collusion and collaboration of American and European soi-disant elites is the only way that either of them were able to get to where they are.

Blogger Servant of the Chief April 13, 2016 1:57 PM  

"although my European friends not infrequently hasten to add that they don't consider me one any longer"

Here in Ireland if you are 'blood', by which we mean of Irish descent you are generally treated much kinder, though obviously you are still a foreigner and we see that, the mannerisms, accent and the noticeable but endearing clumsiness at trying to adopt Irish particularities will always make a Yank stick out, and the more blood you have the easier it is for us to accept you. But you're still a foreigner.

The good news is your children will be smiled upon much more readily which, frankly, is what matters in the end, even if you'll never be considered a member of your host culture, in time your bloodline might be which was traditionally how things were done when Europe was still Christendom.

Blogger Josh April 13, 2016 1:58 PM  

America has made plenty of mistakes, but don't ignore 50+ years of anti-American propaganda by the left, which magnified America's sins while whitewashing others'.

You are the reason the national debt is 19 trillion and we've had endless wars in the middle east.

Blogger Servant of the Chief April 13, 2016 2:00 PM  

PS. As for the Ukrainians, I like the guys, but they are just millions more poor Eastern Europeans being brought into the union if they were accepted and the system is broke as it is.

But if I had to choose between the Slav and the Turk I would choose the Slavs 7 days a week, every week of the year, rain or shine, on fire or nailed down. Never befriend the Turk.

Anonymous A Visitor April 13, 2016 2:03 PM  

"When Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland was videotaped bragging about how the US government spent $5 billion to “promote democracy” in Ukraine, it had nothing to do with the overthrow of the Yanukovich government. When Nuland was recorded telling the US Ambassador in Kiev that Yatsenyuk is the US choice for prime minister, it was not US interference in the internal affairs of Ukraine. In fact, the neocons still consider it a “conspiracy theory” to suggest the US had anything to do with the overthrow."

Why this was not done over classified channels is beyond me?!? I've heard the recordings. Is she really that dumb?

"The other EU member countries did not even dare hold popular referenda on the matter – their parliaments rubber-stamped the agreement."

This has been one of the repeated beauties of the stupidity of Brussels; they evidently learned nothing from the dictators they backed in Africa or the American Revolution: if you want a plan to succeed, don't let the masses vote on it. Case in point: when I was in Spain, Ireland soundly rejected the Lisbon Treaty. Why? Because they allowed the public (rather their parliament to vote on it).

"Brussels backs US regime change plans for Ukraine and EU citizens are told they must bear the burden of bringing an economic basket case up to European standards. How much would it cost EU citizens to bring in Ukraine as a member? "

What about Romania, Bulgaria?

"The anger is rising and there is no telling where it will end. In June, the United Kingdom will vote on whether to exit the European Union. The campaign for an exit is broad-based, bringing in conservatives, populists, and progressives. Regardless of the outcome, the vote should be considered very important. Europeans are tired of their unelected leaders in Brussels pushing them around and destroying their financial and personal security by following Washington’s foolish interventionism. No one can call any of these recent interventions a success and the Europeans know it."

Their national government may still support U.S. foreign policy objectives. After all, the trade off there is their militaries really don't have to do anything.

" Nowadays, one is more likely to meet with narrowed eyes and suspicion than smiles and expressions of admiration."

Thanks for the heads up. Heading over for the first time in 8 years in June for some vacation time.

"And the two most recent American interventions in Europe have been a) the overthrow of the Ukrainian government and b) preventing the Christian Serbs from defeating the Muslim Bosnians."

Towards the latter, cue Remove Kebab!

@2 I've often thought that myself too. :-( One of my profs in undergrad loved talking alternative history (probably because he was a Communist) but that is one of the alternate histories worth wondering: what if we never got into WWI?

"Britain needs a new foreign policy, going by the acronym of NOMFUP."

@4 No more f*cking up?

@6 LOL.

@13 Agreed.

Blogger Miguel D'Anconia April 13, 2016 2:09 PM  

Iran is correct. The US government is the big satan and the Israeli government the little satan.

Anonymous BGKB April 13, 2016 2:13 PM  

minor rock star, particularly if you could speak even a little of the native language

At a gathering where someone was doing the "Americans really should speak more than one language" talking down of rednecks not knowing Mexican. I said " I wholeheartedly agree when I was in Germany I had a pocket translator but my German was good enough I never needed it, but in France/Italy I only had a couple phrases down and would have to pull out a pocket translation dictionary sometimes even having to point at a word. This will not work with Mexicans as most can not even read Spanish. We should teach kids German, Russian, Japanese, & Chinese to advance civilization, while those going into careers of handing out taxpayer paid benefits should learn Mexican."

Europeans know perfectly well who is behind the coups in Ukraine and the Middle East, the banking debacles, and the unelected EU officials

Then why would they blame us and not (((them)))?

Merkel would happily cuck her own people -

Member of the young communists, are we sure she couldn't make aliyah?

As for the Ukrainians, I like the guys, but they are just millions more poor Eastern Europeans being brought into the union

They had 33 tons of gold built up right before Soros invaded.
OT: Are the attitudes different on the North/South East/West of Italy? I would like to visit Rome & maybe Pompeii/Naples/ Capri again in my lifetime.

Blogger VFM #7634 April 13, 2016 2:14 PM  

But over the last five years, attitudes have changed dramatically, particularly among the young. Nowadays, one is more likely to meet with narrowed eyes and suspicion than smiles and expressions of admiration.

I'll play devil's advocate here: Europeans love love love President Butt-Nekkid much more than we do, and would probably love Hillary too. And aside from some elements of the far-right, they think Trump is the Antichrist.

Maybe they think we're all Trump supporters.

b) preventing the Christian Serbs from defeating the Muslim Bosnians.

And the Muslim Kosovars.

Anonymous Heh April 13, 2016 2:18 PM  

@BGKB,

When in France I enjoy asking the locals if they speak German. The answer is inevitably "NON!"

Which allows me to say, "So you have not served in the armed forces then? The first thing they teach in French military training is how to say 'I surrender!' in German."

Blogger FALPhil April 13, 2016 2:18 PM  

@2
How many millions of lives would have been saved if Wilson did not enmesh us in WWI?

WWII would probably not have happened. Or, if we were to get involved, to get involved on the right side. There is a phenomenal case to be made that if the US was going to fight in WWI, its best interests would have been to back Germany. And again, backing Bosnia against Serbia, and Europe against Libya, one wonders if there is any sense of geopolitics in the US government and has there ever been. Regardless, in almost all cases, there never has been a justification for getting involved at all. We could have even sat out WWII had we not aggravated Japan with oil embargoes and such.

I get real frustrated with idiots who don't understand the difference between isolationism and non-interventionism.

Blogger Achilles April 13, 2016 2:22 PM  

So if I wanted to visit the Marche region and see where some of my ancestors are from I not only have to deal with street-pooping "refugees" but also Europeans who blame me for American military bases built post-WWII and during the Cold War era before I was born. Nice.

Small cost to have Europeans wake up, force out migrants, and get some form of nationalism. Then Americans won't have to keep defending Europe. ;^)

Blogger Nathan Wright April 13, 2016 2:24 PM  

(((Americans)))

OpenID basementhomebrewer April 13, 2016 2:26 PM  

My hope is someone takes on the US State Department. People talk about the CIA or the Fed but the State Department is every bit the cesspool found at those other organizations. The main issue is it is overwhelmingly populated by cronies tapped from the ranks of old Ivy league friends of politicians.

These are people that had the pedigree to gain entrance to an ivy league political science program but didn't have the necessary charisma to become a politician or the savvy to become a staffer/adviser.

The overwhelming majority of the US's international blunders originate from that department and no one is every held accountable.

Blogger Nick S April 13, 2016 2:32 PM  

I have to believe it would be a completely different world today had Ron Paul been elected back in 2008. Maybe every election actually is the most important election ever.

Blogger Noah B April 13, 2016 2:38 PM  

Though it sucks to have to constantly prove that you're not one of the bad ones, this is a healthy development for Europe.

Blogger Salt April 13, 2016 2:39 PM  

FALPhil wrote:How many millions of lives would have been saved if Wilson did not enmesh us in WWI?

WWII would probably not have happened.


Heaven forbid. We'd not have the discussion of the Japanese invasion of the west coast otherwise.

Blogger pyrrhus April 13, 2016 2:41 PM  

I think #Brexit is probably the last chance for the UK...the EU will destroy the UK economy and culture in short order if permitted.

Blogger Timmy3 April 13, 2016 2:42 PM  

Did they not welcomed Obama and gave him the Nobel peace prize? They didn't know him then or now.

Blogger Austin Ballast April 13, 2016 2:43 PM  

My father was a missionary in Russia for several years around the 2000 timeframe. They were initially a bit hostile because he was from the US, but they greatly softened when they found out about his Slavic background. That overrode the errors of the US (in their minds at least).

I wonder if it is worth my learning Polish as a "just in case" item since my background is over 1/2 Polish.

Blogger Gaiseric April 13, 2016 2:46 PM  

BGKB wrote:Then why would they blame us and not (((them)))?
60 some odd years of Holocaustianity propaganda makes for a hell of a red pill to swallow. Most haven't choked it down yet.

Blogger Ostar April 13, 2016 2:48 PM  

The first time I was ashamed of my country was when the USA under Clinton intervened and bombed the Serbs to protect the Bosnian Muslims stealing Serbian land. Our best allies in the Balkans, they had saved over 500 American Airmen in WWII at the cost of thousands of Serbs.

Unfortunately, feeling ashamed at what my country does/has become is a much more common occurrence now...

Blogger Nate April 13, 2016 2:49 PM  

"It's common for Americans to sneer at Europeans and brag about how they had to "defend Europe". But what history-challenged Americans always seem to forget is that all they were doing was defending one set of Europeans from another. "

Correct. Its not a european thing. Its mostly somehthing we lord over the French specifically... and occasionally the Brits when they get uppity.

Anonymous David-093 April 13, 2016 2:50 PM  

Yeah the opinions of young Europeans dont mean much to me. We live with the same assholes that staged coups in Europe, they dont treat us any better than they do the Europeans.

If they really cared about who was behind their East Euro and Mid East problems theyd blame the Jews.

Anonymous DE-173/Code 19/Vox Nox April 13, 2016 2:50 PM  

Xenomania is an attribute of the left.

Blogger Marie April 13, 2016 2:51 PM  

I support the idea of Europeans making European Policy.

But if the Europeans are waiting for the American public to demand this action...Well, they have clearly missed the memo Americans are having a hard time getting their political parties to do what they want, let alone control the massive infrastructure of the U.S. Federal Government.

Sorry guys, we lost control of the horse and we are trying to fix it.

But it seems the Europeans are having similar issues with some of their governments. So best of luck to everyone.

Anonymous DE-173/Code 19/Vox Nox April 13, 2016 2:54 PM  

"I have to believe it would be a completely different world today had Ron Paul been elected back in 2008. Maybe every election actually is the most important election ever."

I'm sorry but no it wouldn't. Paul was very good at getting on TV, but not effective as a legislator. No reason to believe he'd be any different as President.

Geez, how I hate hero worshipping.

Anonymous Athor Pel April 13, 2016 2:54 PM  

" 24. OpenID basementhomebrewer April 13, 2016 2:26 PM
My hope is someone takes on the US State Department. People talk about the CIA or the Fed but the State Department is every bit the cesspool found at those other organizations.
...
The overwhelming majority of the US's international blunders originate from that department and no one is every held accountable.
"


The biographies I've read confirm your assessment. This may sound odd but the US State Department seems to have an adversarial relationship with much of the defense and intelligence community. When I say adversarial I'm not talking about competition for funding or normal bureaucratic infighting I mean actively doing things that get people killed on purpose. Benghazi is a natural outgrowth of it all.

Blogger Ahazuerus April 13, 2016 2:56 PM  

Truth is, it would have had to have been a very different world for Ron Paul to have been elected.

You're confusing cause and effect.

Blogger Ahazuerus April 13, 2016 2:57 PM  

@38

You think starting hot conflicts is contrary to the interests of the defence and intelligence communities?

On which planet?

Blogger Marie April 13, 2016 3:02 PM  

"Correct. Its not a european thing. Its mostly somehthing we lord over the French specifically... and occasionally the Brits when they get uppity."

Yep.

But I think it is completely plausible there is some dumb American walking around Europe saying it to the Germans, Italians and even funnier the Russians.

Blogger Conan the Cimmerian April 13, 2016 3:08 PM  

"It's common for Americans to sneer at Europeans and brag about how they had to "defend Europe". But what history-challenged Americans always seem to forget is that all they were doing was defending one set of Europeans from another. "

And the wrong side both times.

Blogger VFM #7634 April 13, 2016 3:09 PM  

OTOH, it may not be because of Trump. Those Americans they do meet tend to be Hillary or Bernie supporters.

Those Republicans over there are most likely Kasich or Cruz supporters, and I can imagine Europeans not liking them. Trump supporters are probably less likely to visit Europe in any case because they're less educated and poorer.

Or maybe it's simply because we're getting disgustingly fat.

Blogger FALPhil April 13, 2016 3:10 PM  

@27 Salt
Heaven forbid. We'd not have the discussion of the Japanese invasion of the west coast otherwise.

Yeah, that's always a funny one when some ignoramus brings it up. They even made a move about it - 1941, starring John Belushi doing post-modern slapstick.

Blogger Conan the Cimmerian April 13, 2016 3:11 PM  

@14 will always make a Yank stick out

Don't ever come to Dixie and start calling the people you meet Yanks.

This advice will preserve your physical health.

Blogger Josh April 13, 2016 3:12 PM  


I'm sorry but no it wouldn't. Paul was very good at getting on TV, but not effective as a legislator. No reason to believe he'd be any different as President.


Shut up faggot

Anonymous dt April 13, 2016 3:15 PM  

Europe can suck it.

Blogger Cogitans Iuvenis April 13, 2016 3:21 PM  

The Europeans invited American intervention and where more than happy to be under the "Pax Americana" when it suited them Vox so they deserve to be sneered at. Frankly, I couldn't care less if the Europeans think America is wholly, or partially, responsible for their plight. They had ample opportunity over the decades to act as a nation rather than a satrap and they chose the latter almost every single time.

Blogger Silly But True April 13, 2016 3:21 PM  

@38 The love-hate relationship goes all the way back to the CIA's First Star -- Douglas Mackiernan. The CIA's first covert agent killed in the line of duty, was done so due to State Department malfeasance and red politicking.

In 1949, the U.S. State Department favorable to the Communists had drug its feet for about two weeks over notifying Tibet of the CIA's covert mission led by Mackiernan for fear the CIA would antagonize them. Three of the party of five were shot dead at the border by Tibetan guards, including Mackiernan, who held joint positions in the CIA and under cover in State Dept. as Vice-Consul.

He was there to broach arming Tibetans against Red China in return for the US getting Favorable access to Tibetan uranium stores before Russia did.

We can say the U.S. State Dept. has nearly a 70 year history of getting its own killed as long as it can take out CIA in the process.

Silly but True

Anonymous FitzRobert April 13, 2016 3:23 PM  

Conan the Cimmerian wrote:"It's common for Americans to sneer at Europeans and brag about how they had to "defend Europe". But what history-challenged Americans always seem to forget is that all they were doing was defending one set of Europeans from another. "

And the wrong side both times.


Amen.

Anonymous Spectator April 13, 2016 3:27 PM  

But over the last five years, attitudes have changed dramatically, particularly among the young. Nowadays, one is more likely to meet with narrowed eyes and suspicion than smiles and expressions of admiration.

Five years?!

As a German I can tell that the perception of American might be not great nowadays, but it was far, FAR worse during the Bush years, especially during 2001-2005 (mostly fuled by leftists back then).

On places like heise (something like the German Slashdot) people posted already "Bush did it" less than one hour after the first airplane hit...

Anonymous Ominous Cowherd April 13, 2016 3:31 PM  

"
But I think it is completely plausible there is some dumb American walking around Europe saying it to the Germans, Italians and even funnier the Russians."

Telling the Germans how we saved them in WWII would be really funny. Telling that to the Russians would be reasonably accurate. We sent them enormous quantities of supplies across the Bering Straits.

Blogger Rusty Fife April 13, 2016 3:32 PM  

Nate wrote:"It's common for Americans to sneer at Europeans and brag about how they had to "defend Europe". But what history-challenged Americans always seem to forget is that all they were doing was defending one set of Europeans from another. "

Correct. Its not a european thing. Its mostly somehthing we lord over the French specifically... and occasionally the Brits when they get uppity.


When I'm in France I don't lord the wars over them; just functioning plumbing.

Anonymous Jill April 13, 2016 3:35 PM  

I'm considering moving to Russia. Putin is at the very least an interesting force. Plus, have an affinity with Eastern Orthodoxy.

Blogger Young Heaving Bosoms of Liberty April 13, 2016 3:35 PM  

Josh wrote:

I'm sorry but no it wouldn't. Paul was very good at getting on TV, but not effective as a legislator. No reason to believe he'd be any different as President.


Shut up faggot


Blogger Michael O'Duibhir April 13, 2016 3:35 PM  

@17
No, I don't believe she's that dumb. Arrogant, rather. She believes that The Tribe is going to close the deal this go-round and global rule will be theirs at last. Bunch of psychos. Here they go setting themselves up for an ass kicking--again.

Blogger Salt April 13, 2016 3:36 PM  

Cogitans Iuvenis wrote:The Europeans invited American intervention and where more than happy to be under the "Pax Americana" when it suited them

Churchill made the deal with Roosevelt in August, 1941. America's paid the price ever since.

Blogger Michael O'Duibhir April 13, 2016 3:37 PM  

@18

I truly believe it's vice versa, Miguel.

Cheers

Blogger Michael O'Duibhir April 13, 2016 3:39 PM  

"I have to believe it would be a completely different world today had Ron Paul been elected back in 2008."

I have to believe that he would've been assassinated, Nick.

Blogger Marie April 13, 2016 3:40 PM  

@14

"Here in Ireland if you are 'blood', by which we mean of Irish descent you are generally treated much kinder,"

My husband was lucky enough to visit your country a few years back and said this was the case. He said the Irish were very friendly, especially once they learned he had Irish ancestors.

I hope I get to visit someday.

Blogger Noah B April 13, 2016 3:41 PM  

If one is wanting to learn a backup language and doesn't specifically plan on moving to Poland, it seems to me that Russian makes much more sense. Despite having a different alphabet the two languages are very similar, and being able to speak Russian opens up a great deal more territory.

Anonymous Sam the Man April 13, 2016 3:43 PM  

I have noticed the Swiss and Germans I know will not comment negatively about the US political scene. I have a feeling they do have some negative opinions, but getting them to state them is impossible. Not enough Bruderschaft I suppose.

That said I will not make negative comments about Germany (except Merkel and only with regards to the immigrant issue over the past year), and frankly I can find nothing negative to say about the Swiss and their fine arms.

I have to say as a person of Northern European descent, I think they have their hands full a the moment with the immigrant crisis, and we did nothing to help that.

Blogger SciVo April 13, 2016 3:46 PM  

Salt wrote:Heaven forbid. We'd not have the discussion of the Japanese invasion of the west coast otherwise.

Yes, I remember reading about the Japanese bombing of Oregon. It was very Douglas Adams-esque.

Blogger dc.sunsets April 13, 2016 3:46 PM  

Without success in Lincoln's War, no monolithic USA for Wilson to smash the European Stalemate, thus no Treaty of Versailles, presumably no Hitler. Maybe no successful Bolshevik Revolution, either. History hinges on one fulcrum after another.

Of course, you can go back to before 1861 and mine all sorts of counter-factuals all the way to Julius Caesar and beyond, I'm sure. Endless conjecture and fun...but meaningless.

We have the world as it is today, and I suspect that the pivotal elements in play now are largely unknown to most, if not all of us.

The American Empire was an odd one. I wonder what will follow it, and how its navigation will challenge people.

Anonymous Spectator April 13, 2016 3:48 PM  

No, seriously Vox. I would like to know where you get the perception. Maybe Italy is completely different to German, but 10-12 years ago, almost all German news magazines looked like this:

http://medienkritik.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451c42969e2015432b7aa25970c-pi

See also this blog:

http://medienkritik.typepad.com/blog/page/3/

For someone who experienced the German media back then, your "five years" timeframe appears extremely odd to say the least.

Blogger Ceasar April 13, 2016 3:48 PM  

I was stationed in Germany from 1988-1991. Most Europeans didn't like Americans back then and were non too glad to show it. Only older Germans, who understood and still felt the pain of WWII, seemed glad to have Americans there. We should have left after the wall came down and let the natural process of western Europeans figure out how to navigate their own protection.

Blogger Ceasar April 13, 2016 3:48 PM  

I was stationed in Germany from 1988-1991. Most Europeans didn't like Americans back then and were non too glad to show it. Only older Germans, who understood and still felt the pain of WWII, seemed glad to have Americans there. We should have left after the wall came down and let the natural process of western Europeans figure out how to navigate their own protection.

Anonymous kfg April 13, 2016 3:50 PM  

"But what history-challenged Americans always seem to forget is that all they were doing was defending one set of Europeans from another."

In point of fact, WWI was not simply a fight between Europeans, but between first cousins.

Anonymous Athor Pel April 13, 2016 3:50 PM  

" 40. Blogger Ahazuerus April 13, 2016 2:57 PM
@38

You think starting hot conflicts is contrary to the interests of the defence and intelligence communities?

On which planet?"



Maybe I need to be more specific. I'm not talking about war profiteering or the military industrial complex. It doesn't matter whether there's a war going on or not.

The US State Department has no compunctions about getting US citizens or US allies or anyone else killed for no reason other than it is in the self defined interest of the State Department or individual State Department employees. This means they actively do things Not in the best interest of America as a nation. To get more specific, many State Department employees over the decades have done things that could easily be classified as treason but because of their family, cultural tribe or butt buddy connections they get a pass.

Is that clear enough?

One more time.

Our State Department is supposed to represent the best interests of the American nation's foreign policy but it Does Not do that.

Blogger Ahazuerus April 13, 2016 3:54 PM  

@68

Yes, that's clear.

I admit to some surprise that this needed saying. I mean, how would you feel if I told you that Santa Claus doesn't bring presents down your chimney on the eve of the the 25th December every year?

Blogger Joshua Sinistar April 13, 2016 3:57 PM  

Vox you have been away too long. You should venture back to see the ruins of the Aquarians and the Long Shriek against the 1980s. America has long since unlatched from the Groovy Gurus of the hippie/yippie mudswogglers. The Reagan 80's did a lot to match their hip with a new style. Don Johnson and his Miami Vices made guns COOL again. We are now a vast hidden empire of Smoking Camels and Trigger Happy Cowboys with a provincial bubble of old and dying hippies living in the Ruins of the Inner Shitty. They are all clusterfucked in Yahoo now. A fishbowl of LSD in a rising New Vision of National Socialism. Bernie has been trying to ride the Socialist side, and Trump is surfing the Nationalist side. One day both will get together and a New Order will be born from the ashes like a PHOENIX.
PAX AMERICANA was mostly just rhetoric. Europeans saw the Peace, but actually we just outsourced it to places like Korea, The NAM, Islands like Grenada and neighbors of the Israelis like Lebanon, Iraq and now Syria. War is a racket, and extremely lucrative. Howard Hughes was the richest man in the World because of it. His Huey Helicopter nicknamed after him has become the Symbol of The NAM.

Blogger tz April 13, 2016 3:58 PM  

Then there's the NSA, strong-arming financial and IP regulations and the rest - Monsanto is having trouble getting them to accept GMO.
The USA is treating Europe like a colony.
But elites gonna elite

Blogger Gaiseric April 13, 2016 4:01 PM  

OT: If the SJW database is so heinous, it's curious that the SJWs are trying to develop their own database of "cyerbullies" complete with full doxxing. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1968200734/wave-goodbye-to-cyberbullies-and-trolls-socialauto

Blogger ScottD April 13, 2016 4:10 PM  

I didn't miss your point at all, and I agree that there is a lot of justifiable anger caused by America's policies and actions. Although I would argue that Europeans are also culpable for the mess in the North Africa and Middle East (see, e.g., Libya).

But I lived in Europe in the 80's and the groundwork for anti-Americanism was already firmly established. I also lived in Turkey at that time, and was astonished at the anti-Americanism among the middle class there. A lot of that was due to decades of anti-American sentiment in leftist-dominated European media that systematically identified America as the bad guy no matter what was happening. Like the "rape culture" propaganda today, which indicts western men while giving a pass to muslim cultures.

Just as the "down with the West" tipping point reached the US higher education system within the last few years, "down with the US" reached a tipping point in Europe.

Anonymous Random April 13, 2016 4:17 PM  

"how would you feel if I told you that Santa Claus doesn't bring presents down your chimney on the eve of the the 25th December every year?"

WHAT?!

My whole world just collapse, you fiend.

Blogger Eric April 13, 2016 4:33 PM  

It's pretty natural to blame other people for your problems, I guess. The biggest problems facing Europeans today are of their own making, and will need to be solved by the Europeans themselves.

Personally I wish we'd just wash our hands of Europe. I wish we'd done it after the war of 1812.

Anonymous zzzz April 13, 2016 4:35 PM  

"Speaking as someone who is nominally an American living in Europe - although my European friends not infrequently hasten to add that they don't consider me one any longer - it has been absolutely astonishing to observe the change in European attitudes towards the USA and towards Americans over the last two decades."

seems like its mostly these last 6-7 years. some punk cr@pping on our allies and paying off our enemies.

Blogger Noah B April 13, 2016 4:36 PM  

"It's pretty natural to blame other people for your problems, I guess. The biggest problems facing Europeans today are of their own making, and will need to be solved by the Europeans themselves."

The biggest problem facing Europe today is the cancerous liberalism that was imposed on them by the US and the Soviets, and the US certainly bears a large degree of responsibility for that.

Anonymous Silly but True April 13, 2016 4:42 PM  

Leaving Germans out, had the Brits (and French, but it wasn't their agreement) honored McMahon rather than the Sykes backstab, then we'd have had a (more?) thankful Islamic Caliphate which included the area running from the 37th parallel near the Taurus Mountains on the southern border of Turkey, to be bounded in the east by Persia and the Persian Gulf, in the west by the Mediterranean Sea and in the south by the Arabian Sea.

Mind you, that's also playing what if, but it's not like Americans single-handedly screwed things up on our own for a passive, disassociated Europe.

I also don't know how long the goodwill of freeing Arabia from the Ottomans and gifting them with their own modern caliphate would have lasted anyway.

Silly but True

Anonymous I am not a Robot April 13, 2016 4:44 PM  

@#4 "No harm to Ukranians, who are a likeable people, but why in the name of all that is Niko Bellic would we want another 45 million Eastern Europeans given a free ticket to come here?"

smoking hot Ukrainian women

Anonymous RedJack April 13, 2016 4:44 PM  

The Germans (and Finns) I have worked with change their tune once they figure out my last name. Same with the northwestern French (my family name is on the border lands).

But they do not like the US. Then again, I don't like much of France either.

Anonymous kfg April 13, 2016 4:49 PM  

"smoking hot Ukrainian women"

The draw is terrible and it's hard to keep them lit.

On the other hand, they go pretty good with bagels and cream cheese.

Blogger Josh April 13, 2016 4:49 PM  

seems like its mostly these last 6-7 years. some punk cr@pping on our allies and paying off our enemies.

You are wrong and you are stupid

Anonymous Instasetting April 13, 2016 5:10 PM  

Ron Paul as President...yeah, it would have changed a lot. Look, the Left is fragile. Really pie crust fragile.

Three people and a decade of courage sealed the deal on the Int'l Left.

Vox on occasion wonders how the Conservatives lost so much against these punks. He's right because the national left is fragile.

As to Europe: Not interested in saving them from themselves a third time.

Blogger Pseudotsuga April 13, 2016 5:11 PM  

@64:
The Japanese Balloon Bombing of the west coast was another historical curiosity-- with tragic results for some people. This is why we have the Mitchell Recreation Area and Monument in Southern Oregon.

Blogger Conan the Cimmerian April 13, 2016 5:17 PM  

@85 As to Europe: Not interested in saving them from (((themselves))) a third time.

FIFY

Anonymous zzzz April 13, 2016 5:22 PM  

"84. Blogger Josh April 13, 2016 4:49 PM
seems like its mostly these last 6-7 years. some punk cr@pping on our allies and paying off our enemies.

You are wrong and you are stupid"

good to know :)

Blogger Kona Commuter April 13, 2016 6:15 PM  

Russian War Planes Buzz US War Ship in Baltic


http://www.msn.com/en-au/news/world/russian-war-planes-buzz-us-destroyer-in-baltic/ar-BBrIFSK?ocid=spartanntp

Anonymous Azimus April 13, 2016 6:25 PM  

Yeah well those Serbs are scum. Didn't you watch Behind Enemy Lines? Plus they're totally bad fighters Owen Wilson totally kicked their @ss...

Anonymous TLM April 13, 2016 6:35 PM  

In the 90s I had just gotten out of the military and was focused on going to school and making up for lost party time while I was in. I didn't pay any attention to the Serbian/Bosnian thing that was going on at the time. Now as an older adult I was shocked to look into it and see that we were literally going against white Christians for the sake of some pretty shitty brownish Muslims.

Blogger Kona Commuter April 13, 2016 6:38 PM  

I'm interested in the thought bubble about what the world would have looked like had Admiral Perry not showed up on Japanese shores demanding they open their borders for trade. The argument goes that the Japanese realised they had no choice - looked around the world at the colonialism and not wanting to be a minor power they mimicked the colonial powers.

Anonymous Cheddarman April 13, 2016 7:11 PM  

Amen. Paul was and is a prophet calling America to repent or face the consequences of its many sins.

Anonymous Quartermaster April 13, 2016 7:17 PM  

I have as yet to see any evidence that links the US to Maidan. The orange revolution not only had the CIA's fingerprints all over it, the US has even fessed up to inciting it. Maidan was not a coup either. Yanukovich, and a very large part of the Berkut ran when the jig was up. All of them are now fugitives from justice for the killings on the Maidan square. Putin gave them Russian citizenship and asylum so they would not have to face justice.

Maidan was a Ukrainian product.

@4
From what I can gather, most of the Dutch really had no idea what the referendum was about. Informed people know that Ukraine will most likely never join the EU, that the referendum was not about joining, and NATO will never extend to cover them either. The referendum was also only advisory and did not bind the government. Strictly speaking it wasn't strictly speaking. The referendum was not about joining the EU.

@19
When I lived in Germany in the late 60s, it was considered good taste for a German to learn some English. On the whole, Germans wanted us there, but an under current was starting and the Socialists, who didn't want us there, were feeding it. The socialists were Com-symps and we saw the results later with wholsale infiltration from east German intelligence. Willie Brandt got burned badly over it.

@26
It is very unlikely that Ron Paul would have much of a difference. He is mostly an ideologue and it is unlikely that he would have been able to bend FedGov to his will.

@33
What slick Willie did in the Balkans was some of the most idiotic stuff I've seen FedGov do in my lifetime. What happened in the Balkans is one reason Russia turned against us.

@37
Yeppers! Both populations are having to go to war with their ruling classes. Perhaps the Euros are learning the lesson of why we're in the condition we are and becoming a bit more understanding. I wouldn't bank on it, though.

@46
As a Southron, I got tired of being called a yank real fast when in the UK. I patiently corrected those calling me that as it was out of ignorance rather than spite. They understood after it was explained to them.

@47
You shouldn't use words on other people that apply equally to you.

@55
Don't move to Russia. You will end up deeply regretting it.

@62
Anyone moving to Russia at present needs the services of a shrink. Few people in the west understand just how much trouble Russia is in.

@72
The Huey was a Bell product. The OH-6 Cayuse was a Hughes product (AKA Highes 500).

Anonymous ZhukovG April 13, 2016 7:24 PM  

I hope the British have the good sense to vote for their sovereignty this summer. I hate seeing them kowtow to Brussels and by extension Berlin.

When I was stationed in the United Kingdom, there was a pub I would go to that was frequented by a lot of British WWII Vets. I always went in uniform. I'd put on my 'wooly pully' and my beret. The old guys really got a kick out this 'young yank' (I'm Southern, but I figured they'd earned a pass) that would listen to their 'war stories'.

Having always been a military history fan, this was an incredible experience. And the fact that I never had to pay for a drink didn't hurt either.

A couple of them had been part of the 'Few', flying 'Hurries' and later 'Spits'. Others had served in North Africa and Burma. One fellow had been a Gunners Mate on the King George V when she fought the Bismarck.

The Lion's last roar was a great one.

Anonymous A Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents April 13, 2016 7:29 PM  

b) preventing the Christian Serbs from defeating the Muslim Bosnians.


That was back in the 90's when a lot of people were all "Abrahamic Faith" oriented. The Euros didn't exactly cover themselves with glory, either - when the whole Bosnian situation erupted I recall in newsgroup after newsgroup the question from Euros was "What are YOU AMERICANS going to do about this?" and when I pointed out that, hmm, the problem seemed to be rather European in origin, you know what the answer was, time after time?

"That's not Europe, it's the Balkans".

So. That was then, now it's all part of Europe? Pfft.

The problem is the transnational elite. That fat sow Merkel is German through and through, except she's more loyal to the Davos set than to her own people. Tony Blair is as English as they come, but he deliberately and knowingly imported millions of Pakistanis with the specific intent of changing the demographics of Britland. I can go on and on, but the point remains:

If the average American is to blame for Clinton's Balkan bombing, then the average German is to blame for Merkel's mass importation of Jihad. What's that, it's different for them?

Nope. It isn't. The real conflict is between the Davos Brahmins and everyone else, and I have more in common with a drunken Dago begging for spare change outside the Rome train station than I do with the likes of Merkel.

Divide and conquer - set the middle class Euros against the middle class Americans, so that both groups don't notice what is going on in their respective "elites".

Anonymous Laz April 13, 2016 7:59 PM  

@63. Sam the Man

"...and frankly I can find nothing negative to say about the Swiss..."

I can- 60% imcome tax

Blogger rumpole5 April 13, 2016 8:01 PM  

When I travel abroad I always feel like kissing the ground when I return. I personally wish that we could pull every soldier back to the USA, seal the boarders and tell the rest of the world to figure it out. A new era of nationalistic isolationism would suit me just fine.

Blogger Eric April 13, 2016 8:08 PM  

The Euros didn't exactly cover themselves with glory, either - when the whole Bosnian situation erupted I recall in newsgroup after newsgroup the question from Euros was "What are YOU AMERICANS going to do about this?"

Yep. How many times have we heard "The Americans have to take the lead. They're they only ones who have the capability." Every time some third world shithole blows up the Europeans, particularly the continentals, yammer on about what "the world community" ought be doing. And they're willing to chip in at least... a dozen troops for the effort. Just enough to put "combat proven" in the brochures for weapons systems they have coming to market.

And then there was LIbya. That was a British and French project. They asked us to get involved because we're the only ones who could provide the refueling capability they needed to actually pull it off. Which I'm okay with, given the number of times the UK has helped us out (the French can pound sand). Oh, what a triumph of modern statecraft Libya turned out to be.

Blogger Were-Puppy April 13, 2016 8:09 PM  

@46 Conan the Cimmerian

Don't ever come to Dixie and start calling the people you meet Yanks.
---

I love it when they do that !

OpenID aew51183 April 13, 2016 8:25 PM  

As an American, I don't care what Europeans who are about to enter a 1000 year old dark age think. I'd rather partner with russia and contain them so the regressive islamists streaming there can go nowhere else.

Blogger Were-Puppy April 13, 2016 8:27 PM  

Are the Europeans aware that Ron Paul is a low energy GEEZER?

Anonymous Poster April 13, 2016 8:45 PM  

The biggest problem facing Europe today is the cancerous liberalism that was imposed on them by the US and the Soviets

Soviet "liberalism"?

The GOP from the 50s was more "liberal". Beginning with Stalin, Anything beyond "man on top of woman" or the reverse was considered abhorrent and could be fined with prison.

There's a reason there's still a sharp divide between Western Europe and Eastern Europe in terms of acceptance of "liberal values" (can be especially seen in western vs eastern Germany).

The Soviet commies were atheists, but not the western liberal kind. The ideal of the "New Soviet Man" was basically a godless puritan.

http://laughingsquid.com/wp-content/uploads/16.jpg
https://russophilia.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/glory-to-mother.jpg

Anonymous Bobby Farr April 13, 2016 9:46 PM  

Give the devil his due. At least the US chose the right side in Ukraine if it was going to meddle (what the media describes as racist fascist nationalists).

Anonymous A Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents April 13, 2016 10:03 PM  

The next shoe falls?

up to 20 German soldiers may have defected to ISIS

But, but, muh Die-versity!

Anonymous ZhukovG April 13, 2016 10:05 PM  

Give the devil his due. At least the US chose the right side in Ukraine if it was going to meddle (what the media describes as racist fascist nationalists).

There was no 'right' side for the United States in Ukraine. We had no business meddling in that country. Now the place is starting to make sub-Saharan Africa look good.

The only good that came out of it was the return of Crimea to Russia and I doubt seriously that was the US goal.

Blogger Sherwood family April 13, 2016 10:32 PM  

Poster is right, Soviet flirtation with "liberalism" ended with the coming of Stalin. The 20's was a free for all but the Soviets soon realized you couldn't hope to have a coherent state to lord over if you wiped out the families that would undergird it through social policies that favored things other than normal marriage arrangements. Despite their godless atheism the Communists were not big into the the public celebration of depravities and debaucheries like the modern West seems to be. In fact, the debaucheries and depravities in much of the modern West are the result of a two pronged approach, on the one hand Western Cold War strategy tried to show that the West was the Best because "MOAR FREEDUM" which meant over time, more latitude to do debased things. On the other hand the Soviets, having seen the outcome of their own early experiments in "alternative lifestyles" whole-heartedly encouraged the kind of debauchery that holds pride parades in cities across the West, knowing that it would weaken the West and make it decadent. They did not count on being knocked out first and now, ironically, are working to defend themselves from the very agenda they helped push in the West being shoved down their throats. The State Department is doing a bang-up job of working to cover the world with the Rainbow Banner and brooks no dissent from that agenda by nations on the world stage. Russia and Uganda have been taken to task for their stances against homosexuality, which in the case of Russia is a very mild stance in point of actual fact. But failure to celebrate hard enough is on the way to becoming a capital offense.

Blogger JimR April 13, 2016 10:37 PM  

@97 Laz
"I can- 60% imcome tax"

That must be some alternate history Switzerland you are talking about.

Blogger The Other Robot April 13, 2016 10:45 PM  

Anyone moving to Russia at present needs the services of a shrink. Few people in the west understand just how much trouble Russia is in.

Napoleon: Few people in the world understand how much trouble Russia is in!

Hitler: Few people in the world understand how much trouble Russia is in!

Yeah. Fuck yeah!

Anonymous A Visitor April 13, 2016 10:49 PM  

@107 That's the reason I'm kinda glad I've not passed the FSOT...even though I'm shooting for consular (though political was my first choice in my heart of hearts), having to defend homosexuality as a pillar of U.S. foreign policy...I'll leave it to you brah (I know you're consular ;-) )

Blogger The Other Robot April 13, 2016 11:14 PM  

@74: People should complain to Kickstarter that they are threatening people.

Anonymous Jack Amok April 13, 2016 11:15 PM  

The feeling is mutual. The globalist agenda has hardly benefited the average American any more than it has the average European. And it's clear that collusion and collaboration of American and European soi-disant elites is the only way that either of them were able to get to where they are.

Sure, but apres elles, le deluge. Hard times make for grumpy people and even if folks on both sides of the Atlantic took it out on their own elites, there'd still be anger, resentment and hate left after the elites were bloody smears on the pavement.

There won't be any shortage of recriminations. But, there may still be a common enemy. Or enemies. The Russians, the turks, the Chinese... any of them could be dumb enough to drive Americans and Europeans back together again.

But, no guarantee of that.

Anonymous Jack Amok April 13, 2016 11:20 PM  

And the wrong side both times.

Well then let's put the blame where it lies, on that idiot Kaiser Willie the 2nd. If he hadn't wanted his Emperor-sized bath tub toys, England would've been his ally and so would have been America.

The biggest problem facing Europe today is the cancerous liberalism that was imposed on them by the US and the Soviets, and the US certainly bears a large degree of responsibility for that.

Bullshit. The Europeans imposed liberalism on themselves. After WWI, the US withdrew back into isolationism and the Europeans, realizing their elites had killed most of a generation out of sheer political incompetence, chucked most of their society out the window.

It was England and (most especially) France that created Weimar, and all the other abominations of the Peace to End All Peace. The only culpability the US has for that is that our intervention cemented England and France as the victors. They may still have won even without us.

Blogger Tom K. April 13, 2016 11:23 PM  

Dogmatically, you are right.

Culturally, you are wrong.

Historically, hypocrisy was always the tribute which vice had to pay virtue. And it was a SMALL price to pay to maintain the benefits of Christian civilization.

About 50 years ago, Vice started demanding tribute from Virtue instead and Virtue agreed to pay. Our ongoing decay is the result.

I have lately reflected that Islam seems to be the only religious "ethic" that man is capable of actually obeying with his corrupted nature. Consider almost any vice a man might indulge and you can find an imam.who sees a principle in the life of Mohammed to justify it.

Christian culture at its best was like the Law. It upheld God's standard while showing us our weakness. Hypocrisy was, is, and always shall be essential to the survival of Christian culture. Without it you have cross-dressing Pedophiles gaining legal access to their prey and decent people afraid to speak out because someone will call them a NAME!

Blogger Tom K. April 13, 2016 11:24 PM  

Dogmatically, you are right.

Culturally, you are wrong.

Historically, hypocrisy was always the tribute which vice had to pay virtue. And it was a SMALL price to pay to maintain the benefits of Christian civilization.

About 50 years ago, Vice started demanding tribute from Virtue instead and Virtue agreed to pay. Our ongoing decay is the result.

I have lately reflected that Islam seems to be the only religious "ethic" that man is capable of actually obeying with his corrupted nature. Consider almost any vice a man might indulge and you can find an imam.who sees a principle in the life of Mohammed to justify it.

Christian culture at its best was like the Law. It upheld God's standard while showing us our weakness. Hypocrisy was, is, and always shall be essential to the survival of Christian culture. Without it you have cross-dressing Pedophiles gaining legal access to their prey and decent people afraid to speak out because someone will call them a NAME!

Blogger Stephen Davenport April 13, 2016 11:43 PM  

Agree with most except the overthrowing the Ukrainian government part, any government that shoots civilians in the street and arrests former politicians solely for political reasons, doesn't deserve to be in charge, just saying. Russia reneging on several previous treaties and taking the Crimea and instigating the Donbas fight was worse.

Anonymous A Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents April 14, 2016 12:27 AM  

It was England and (most especially) France that created Weimar, and all the other abominations of the Peace to End All Peace.

I have been to the place where World War 2.0 started. Maybe I'll get to return there sometime. Not anyplace in Poland, or the Sudetenland, or the Rhineland, nope.

I refer, of course, to the Hall of Mirrors at Versailles.

Anonymous Laz April 14, 2016 12:49 AM  

@108. JimR

"That must be some alternate history Switzerland you are talking about."

Yeah, my bad. I was thinking of Sweden (57%).

Blogger Blue88 April 14, 2016 1:35 AM  

@109 Russia may have it's problems but they are Russia's. Push comes to shove, don't fuck with the Russians.

Anonymous Eric the Red April 14, 2016 2:30 AM  

@119 Blue88...
Au contraire, mon frere..
they export a lot of problems. Anywhere in the world where there is a group of expat Russians, it's only because their miserable damn Mafiya was there first to set up shop.

Anonymous A. Nonymous April 14, 2016 4:07 AM  

But let's not deny European agency. Merkel would happily cuck her own people - and the progressive Germans are happy to help her - without any aid necessary from the USA.

The USA has spent a lot of time and money to cultivate that behaviour in the first place.

Anonymous Swed April 14, 2016 4:44 AM  

American posters: S-stupid Europe! It's not l-like I wanted you to like me!

Blogger Eric April 14, 2016 5:48 PM  

I don't care one way or another whether or not they like me. They just need to start pulling their own weight.

Anonymous Discard April 18, 2016 12:55 AM  

53. Ominous Cowherd: We sent Russia nothing across the Bering Straits. We sent stuff from west coast ports to Vladivostok, we sent stuff around the top of Norway to Murmansk, and we sent stuff through the Persian Gulf and Iran.

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