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Thursday, April 07, 2016

Thus proving the Alt-Right right

Actual headline and subtitle at the increasingly mistitled Reason:
The Alt-Right Is Wrong: Trump Is an Enemy of Western Civilization, Not Its Champion

If your candidate opposes free trade and free speech, he's not a defender of classical liberalism.
This is almost astonishingly ignorant. It amazes me to have to point out that classical liberalism is not Western Civilization, which predates classical liberalism by literal centuries.

Moreover, it is free trade that poses a deadly danger to Western Civilization, as the combination of cheap travel and communications technology, relaxed border controls, and the free movement of people that is necessary for the operation of free trade are putting Western Civilization in the greatest peril it has known since the Turks were knocking at the gates of Vienna.

It's not just a stupid headline writer either, as Robby Soave doubles down in the body of the article itself:
No presidential candidate who fails to grasp why unrestricted trade across national borders is the hallmark of a civilized society is fit to lead one, and no leader who seeks the power to shut down newspapers who criticize him can be trusted to defend classical liberalism from its enemies.
Apparently Robby is not only ignorant of European history, but of American history as well; no American president has ever favored unrestricted trade across national borders, not even Bill Clinton or George Bush.

And, again, classical liberalism is not Western Civilization. The temporal and conceptual subset should never be confused with the set.

Labels: ,

207 Comments:

1 – 200 of 207 Newer› Newest»
Anonymous VFM #6306 April 07, 2016 3:08 PM  

I'd shake my head, but people might mistake it for a seizure.

Blogger Matamoros April 07, 2016 3:17 PM  

I agree. Every civilization protects its borders, its people and its economy. Otherwise it is conquered by "war by other means".

Blogger dc.sunsets April 07, 2016 3:17 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Anonymous Quartermaster April 07, 2016 3:18 PM  

@1
There's so much to shake your head at these days, people might think you have something seriously wrong if you did shake your head at everything.

Anonymous A Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents April 07, 2016 3:18 PM  

The old joke USSR joke:
"There is no truth in Pravda, and no news in Isvestia".

Modernizes to: "There is no reason in Reason" very well, because libertoonies increasingly are just another flavor of lefty. Therefore rhetoric rules, and dialectic….what's that, again?

Anonymous Ominous Cowherd April 07, 2016 3:21 PM  

"8 to 0 the US Supreme Court has apparently approved counting illegal immigrants for the purpose of congressional redistricting.."

Democrat and Republican appointees coming together to destroy our nation.

Blogger dc.sunsets April 07, 2016 3:23 PM  

Thank heaven Bernie or Hillary will be there to defend classical liberalism.

/facepalm.

In other news,

8 to 0 the US Supreme Court has apparently approved counting illegal immigrants for the purpose of state legislative apportionment.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/apr/4/supreme-court-illegals-count-apportionment/

Think attracting illegals was a political strategy before? Stick the proverbial fork in it. The USA is done.

Blogger dc.sunsets April 07, 2016 3:25 PM  

I must then assume that Robbie has a sign in front of his residence that invites any and all comers in to raid his refrigerator, pet his cat and butter his other "cat."

I mean, borders? What borders?

Anonymous VFM #9617 April 07, 2016 3:28 PM  

Meh, the article affirms that the values of Western Civilization are worth protecting and is addressing and trying to reason with the alt-right as opposed to disparaging or ignoring it. How many Reason articles did that this time last year?

Is that the sound of the Overton window moving I hear?

Blogger Jourdan April 07, 2016 3:30 PM  

Not surprising at all. Libertards gonna libertard.

They always understand the price of everything and the value of nothing.

Blogger Jon M April 07, 2016 3:31 PM  

The cluncher is the bit claiming Hispanics of Latin American descent are part of western civilization because...Hispanic, duh, it's right in the name. Talk about fearlessly waving the red flag of stupidity. That's exactly the sort of 'midwit trying to look smarter than he is' tell that Vox taught us how to spot.

Dude probably thinks they speak Latin, too.

Blogger tz April 07, 2016 3:32 PM  

I prefer the alt-rite. Dominus Vobiscum!
Reason can be faulty, but there is no excuse for not correcting.
You cannot have a "free market" or "free trade" in the fundamental ideas about tolerance and reason which are the foundation of Western Civilization without destroying it. WestCiv is about where reason and rationality lead, and the tolerance and liberty to explore where that might be, not to discard reason entirely and enter into imaginary or irrational realms that not only can't exist, but if they did it would be like something out of a Lovecraft novel where the old ones didn't stay on their side of the boundary (A beautiful wall, and we'll get Yog Shothoth to pay for it!).

Blogger Jon M April 07, 2016 3:32 PM  

The cluncher is the bit claiming Hispanics of Latin American descent are part of western civilization because...Hispanic, duh, it's right in the name. Talk about fearlessly waving the red flag of stupidity. That's exactly the sort of 'midwit trying to look smarter than he is' tell that Vox taught us how to spot.

Dude probably thinks they speak Latin, too.

Blogger tz April 07, 2016 3:33 PM  

Western Civilization is something of value.
Not unlike Esau's birthright.
Sold for a "Free Lunch".

Blogger tz April 07, 2016 3:35 PM  

Somehow they seem convinced that the Yanomamo can or have produced something equivalent to the music of JS Bach.

Anonymous TheSmokingMan#3424 April 07, 2016 3:37 PM  

I feel like a schizophrenic. Sometimes I want to strap a Wiley Coyote-style rocket engine to the bullet-train of disaster. Other times I want to slam on the brakes as hard as possible. I can't decide if I want to enjoy the decline or save the west.

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer April 07, 2016 3:38 PM  

@5

At one time a some Libertarians were proposing something called Liberaltarianism. The Libertarians were tired of being associated retrograde Christ botherers and their Bible thumping moral beliefs. Seems that was all that was keeping America from fully supporting the Libertarian agenda.

So, they were going to ally with liberals regarding social issues and the liberals were going to support the Libertarians economic agenda.

Hey! Stop laughing. Plenty of Libertarians really thought that was a feasible plan. I. Am. Not. Making. This. Up.

Blogger Derrick Bonsell April 07, 2016 3:40 PM  

He must have got his definition of Western Civilization from Sargon of Akkad.

Blogger tz April 07, 2016 3:44 PM  

@16 To paraphrase Yosemite Sam, Libertarians is soooo stupid.

I know you aren't making it up.

The problem with "libertarains" of this form is that they tend toward being libertines and atheists (of the socialist - I know how you should run your life, at least by not going to church - variety).

The "social issues" affect economic liberty. Lewis used the analogy of a convoy - most don't argue about the boats not crashing into each other, but then what about insuring they are seaworthy (either so they can avoid crashing or don't require the convoy to stop and help daily), and where the convoy is headed.

There is no liberty if one is a slave to the appetites - or sin in another form.

Blogger Aeoli Pera April 07, 2016 3:47 PM  

The temporal and conceptual subset should never be confused with the set.

Reference for aspies.

Blogger dc.sunsets April 07, 2016 3:51 PM  

Reason long ago (20 yrs?) joined the Immanentize the eschaton bandwagon.

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer April 07, 2016 3:51 PM  

So anyway, the only problem with Libertarianism is that it is completely unworkable because, just like Communism, its view of human nature is completely wrong in that it posits, just like Communism, that human behavior is completely motivated by by economics and that humans will always make rational choices.

Or at least they will after they have been educated to support a philosophy that is to be used to order society in a manner never tried before in the entire course of human history. But hey, it can't be that hard to create a "New Man" can it?

Blogger August April 07, 2016 3:52 PM  

Migration is fraught with governments and people like Soros with ulterior motives. But then, to have to say it's not free trade a thousand times begs the question- is there ever free trade? The Chinese don't think so. Probably most of the world doesn't think so, since this is part of the propaganda for browbeating everyone into doing what Team America wants.

Blogger dc.sunsets April 07, 2016 3:52 PM  

@16, now the leftist wing of the libertarians has a term for non-leftists: Brutalists.

This is libertarianism for welfare statists, yet another oxymoron from the people who brought you the Libertarian Party.

Blogger Nate April 07, 2016 3:53 PM  

for fuck's sake... when they sat down and wrote The Constitution they deliberately chose tariffs to be the ONLY way to fund the federal government. Direct taxation was explicitly forbidden.

Blogger Elder Son April 07, 2016 3:55 PM  

Just spit it out: I am a globalist.

As we all sing: https://youtu.be/DVg2EJvvlF8

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer April 07, 2016 3:56 PM  

Brutalists

Damn it! Brutalism is a term used to discuss a type of modern architecture.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brutalist_architecture

Thank you lefties for sowing yet further confusion.

Blogger bw April 07, 2016 3:57 PM  

astonishingly ignorant

aka. "purposeful propaganda"

Blogger dc.sunsets April 07, 2016 3:58 PM  

The Constitution

Yes, yes, but someone forgot to inform them that words are subject to reinterpretation. The Swiss system had been around for a couple centuries by then. Maybe that would have been a better one to copy, given that citizens have a lot more veto power over the clods they elect to rule.

Blogger Quintus Maximus April 07, 2016 3:59 PM  

I deleted the ill titled 'reason' from my daily reads about 5 months ago. Few remain, VP being one of a handful.

Anonymous Wyrd April 07, 2016 4:05 PM  

Any gamblers ready to wager how soon Bill Clinton will be excommunicated from the Democratic Party?

http://www.weeklystandard.com/bill-clinton-black-lives-matter-protesters-are-defending-murders-and-drug-dealers/article/2001877

Blogger Matamoros April 07, 2016 4:05 PM  

The reality the news media denies:

'These are my people!': Trump's homecoming sees 10,000 New Yorkers crowd into hangar the size of a FOOTBALL FIELD to hear the GOP front-runner's greatest hits

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3527465/These-people-Trump-s-homecoming-yuuuge-10-000-New-Yorkers-crowd-hangar-size-FOOTBALL-FIELD-hear-GOP-runner-s-greatest-hits.html

Trump said the crowd was 17,000. and it probably was.

Blogger White Devil April 07, 2016 4:07 PM  

Western Civilization is over.
Civilized Westerners don't have to be your audience anymore.

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 April 07, 2016 4:07 PM  

Never found Reason magazine to be all that reasonable. From my experience, any organization or institution with "Reason" or "Rational" in the title is anything but.

Kind of like how dictatorships like to use "People's Republic" in their nation titles.

Blogger Conan the Cimmerian April 07, 2016 4:08 PM  

Vox,

On the latest "THE DAILY SHOAH #79: Karaoke Hall Putsch" with 7th Son, Mike Enoch, and guest Richard Spencer, they talk about how they have been meaning to get together a show featuring (ex/modified)libertarians.

You need to get in on that. I know you have nothing to do.

I am going to twitt/comment there for them to get you on the show.

Y'all need to do this.

Blogger dc.sunsets April 07, 2016 4:11 PM  

Kind of like how dictatorships like to use "People's Republic" in their nation titles.

Or how every July 4th fireworks display now includes Lee Greenwood's peon to self-delusion, repeated often enough....

Blogger Elder Son April 07, 2016 4:12 PM  

Veto power. If you can keep it. How do you keep it? By refreshing it.

Anonymous Jill April 07, 2016 4:18 PM  

Classical liberalism was inspired by 18th C ideals in the 19th C, but the term itself is more modern. The philosophy was so quickly usurped by social liberalism that it's laughable. Classical liberalism is a blip on the map of western civilization. In any case, I find it disturbing that the concepts of free market and free trade are constantly being blurred. I would say the blurring is intentional, as the average media consumer may not pause to consider the difference.

Blogger Eric Slate April 07, 2016 4:19 PM  

Reason website holds a libertarian viewpoint, which was an ally of conservativism about 10 years ago. You can think of those people as the moderates that Box warns about.

Blogger Matt April 07, 2016 4:19 PM  

The article is not comparing Western Civilization [as you define it in the ancient historical sense] with classical liberalism. Not sure why you are linking the two? He means 'the west' as in values of Western Europe and America. In fact, he writes Trump is a threat to ‘modern Western civilization’ midway through the article, clearly showing he understands the difference between ancient and modern.

I disagree with his premise but it is true that trade [in general] has been a cornerstone in the rise of civilization in Europe and America. Trump sees a threat to the nation in the current trade deals, yes. Although I don't think Trump wants to scrap trade all together. That would be absurd. Trump also does flirt with denying freedom of the press when he talks of suing newspapers for criticizing him. Trump needs to grow a backbone on that issue if he wants to be president.

Blogger Adam Lawson April 07, 2016 4:27 PM  

That writer is stupid as hell. That sort of bullshit is why I stopped reading Reason altogether.

Since Ancient Greece, Western Civilization has consistently improved the lives of more people than anything we've ever done as a species. Bumps in the road have been that - bumps, not derailments, to mix metaphors. And all of these stupid morons are trying to flush it down the toilet because feelings and because monied interests.

The current alternatives that are likely: a sharia backed Caliphate or a Chinese empire. Neither will be good for these idiots.

Anonymous Laz April 07, 2016 4:27 PM  

"Lee Greenwood's peon to self-delusion"

It was a different culture in the 80's when that song came out.

I'll always associate it with standing on the side of the highway holding hands with my family during Hands Across America. Crazy thing was we started out with just the 12 of us and by the time the music was over there were like 100 people standing there with us in the middle of nowhere Texas.

Anonymous A Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents April 07, 2016 4:27 PM  

dc.sunsets
@16, now the leftist wing of the libertarians has a term for non-leftists: Brutalists.

Say, never mind the architecture school, what if the alt-right decides "Ok, fine, we'll just OWN that label". Wonder where that might just lead?

Anonymous johnc April 07, 2016 4:27 PM  

The free-traders are simply insufferable. Is it too much to ask them to use actual facts or at least anecdotal evidence to defend their theories?

They seem to think large and regular trade deficits are a proof of success. Or, at least, are of no interesting consequence.

Anonymous Bah April 07, 2016 4:30 PM  

No presidential candidate who fails to grasp why unrestricted trade across national borders is the hallmark of a civilized society is fit to lead one,

Unfit, uncivilized Presidents include every President before 1914!

Blogger Salt April 07, 2016 4:36 PM  

A man cannot portray himself as the defender of the Enlightenment, modern Western civilization, and classical liberalism if he is desperate to undo its crowning achievements.

Trump would do everything he could to rid the U.S. of the economic conditions that made it rich in the first place.


What conditions would that be? Unfettered immigration of peoples who do not share cultural values?

he has vowed to make it easier to sue newspapers

That's libelous. /s

Trump is not the candidate of Western European values: he is the candidate of people who descend from Western Europeans—white people.

Yeah. The people who enabled western civilization to begin with.

Blogger Matt April 07, 2016 4:40 PM  

#24 Nate
>>When they sat down and wrote The Constitution they deliberately chose tariffs to be the ONLY way to fund the federal government. Direct taxation was explicitly forbidden.<<

Not true. Washington levied a Whiskey tax. Jefferson wrote about taxing the higher portions of property in geometrical progression as they rise. And Congress passed a progressive estate tax in 1797. The founding fathers we not all of one thought on taxation, true but the Constitutional convention gave the federal government full power to levy taxes.

Blogger praetorian April 07, 2016 4:41 PM  

"Unrestricted trade across national borders" == "The hallmark of a civilized society"

That tells you all you need to know about Reason. That's literally the most retarded thing I've read today, and I spent a fair bit of the day shitposting on Hacker News.

Anonymous A Pardigm Is More Than Twenty Cents April 07, 2016 4:48 PM  

Reason and its readers have just fallen behind the pace of reality. Like the cuckservatives at National Review they just mentally checked out sometime late in W's second term.

When was the last time anyone read an actual idea in Reason as opposed to something recycled from 10 or more years ago?

What difference does legal pot make when Jihad is moving in next door?

Say, that brings up an interesting question: given the demographic changes in Compton, I wonder how #OnlyBlackLivesMatter will do up against the Jihad?

Anonymous BGKB April 07, 2016 5:00 PM  

I used to like reason. At least Remmy's videos are still funny

Dude probably thinks they speak Latin, too.

“In one century we went from teaching Latin and Greek in high school to offering remedial English in college.” – Joseph Sobran

More like 20 years from walking on the moon affirmative action established remedial English at Harvard.

Blogger Cataline Sergius April 07, 2016 5:13 PM  

Reason has become exceptionally doctrinaire in recent years. I can't bring myself to nose through it anymore and I used to be a faithful subscriber.

Also...How is Trump against free speech? Or is that if you are against Free Trade you are now automatically against Free Speech?

How does that work?

Simple...in a very simple way.

Ninety percent of Libertarians have absolutely no idea whatsoever how free trade is supposed to deliver the wonderfullness that it does. People whom they respect swear it's good and those people can make it sound reasonable...if you don't think about it too hard.

I know because I believed strongly in Free Trade and I never thought about it at all.

If you link the two in your mind as being equally important, then if anyone opposes one of them that person must automatically oppose the other as well.

Which is quite silly, lefties adore Free Trade and loath Free Speech.

Anonymous Ominous Cowherd April 07, 2016 5:16 PM  

"Although I don't think Trump wants to scrap trade all together. "

I think you are right. If I had to choose between our current open borders state and truly closed borders: no trade, no travel, no nothing, I'd take the latter.

I would prefer a good trade war, but anything beats the status quo.

Anonymous anticuck April 07, 2016 5:24 PM  

Classical liberalism has failed western civilization. The underlying beliefs of classical liberalism, that all men are created equal, and that man is inherently good and deserves free speech, the right to vote, ect, are both objectively false. Free speech has allowed degenerates to destroy any kind of moral order in western countries, by pushing things like feminism, porn, and gay mirage. The result is the collapse of mirage, low birthrates, and a disappearing race. The obsession with racial equality and mass immigration will leave the west resembling its white origins as much as modern day central america represents the inca empire.

Blogger praetorian April 07, 2016 5:33 PM  

Classical liberalism has failed western civilization.

Clearly. The question is... what do we do now?

I like Chesterton's answer, but I'm increasingly concerned that That Other Guy's answer is more likely to be what's tried.

Anonymous kfg April 07, 2016 5:35 PM  

"Brutalism is a term used to discuss a type of modern architecture."

I tend to get a bit brutal just thinking about Boston City Hall. At this point I only want to discuss it with a 40 lb hammer.

Blogger John S April 07, 2016 5:38 PM  

(t)Reason...

Blogger YIH April 07, 2016 5:43 PM  

About 10 years ago I stopped reading *ahem* Reason when it began to tout porn stars and Madonna (I know, a distinction without a difference) as 'libertarian' role models.
Posing a porn whore with an AK is not my idea of something to aspire to - even if it's nice eye candy.

Blogger SciVo April 07, 2016 5:54 PM  

Why has seemingly the entire world devolved into oikophobic anarcho-tyranny at precisely the same moment? It seems too much of a coincidence for something so highly specific to become so widespread so quickly.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan April 07, 2016 5:57 PM  

Typical isolated from reality white ass clowns, who will never ever bother to ask any of the glorious people of color what they think of free trade or free speech.

The little bitches who staff these little outfits should be sold as sex slaves to ISIS or some other "authentic" displayers of cultural vibrancy.

My puppy has more wit than the author of that hit piece.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan April 07, 2016 6:01 PM  

Ask the ass clowns at that 503 money pit of death if they take seriously the charges of "Sexism, racism and homophobia" their answers should be all you need to know about their lack of gravitas.

Blogger lowercaseb April 07, 2016 6:01 PM  

YIH wrote:About 10 years ago I stopped reading *ahem* Reason when it began to tout porn stars and Madonna (I know, a distinction without a difference) as 'libertarian' role models.

Posing a porn whore with an AK is not my idea of something to aspire to - even if it's nice eye candy.


That was back when things were relatively stable. We are in VERY unstable times right now. Not SHTF level, but it is certainly on the horizon.

Libertarianism is a luxury that we can't afford right now. Ditto with Porn Stars and Entertainers.

I doubt the country is going to rip itself apart THIS election, but it is setting the stage for it on the next election.

I hope that porn star learns how to shoot that rifle she is posed with.

Blogger lowercaseb April 07, 2016 6:07 PM  

SciVo wrote:Why has seemingly the entire world devolved into oikophobic anarcho-tyranny at precisely the same moment? It seems too much of a coincidence for something so highly specific to become so widespread so quickly.

You are not the only one that is thinking this. I don't have an answer, but I am really noticing that creeping feeling of dread that is surrounding us.

I'm lucky. I live in San Francisco. When Western Civ finally gives way I am going to die pretty damn quickly...probably in an apartment fire.

Blogger SciVo April 07, 2016 6:08 PM  

A Pardigm Is More Than Twenty Cents wrote:Say, that brings up an interesting question: given the demographic changes in Compton, I wonder how #OnlyBlackLivesMatter will do up against the Jihad?

What do you mean against? They would join it. Many of them already have.

Blogger YIH April 07, 2016 6:12 PM  

From another blog I visit regularly:
The reason I'm a Libertarian Nationalist and not just a Libertarian is that in order for a libertarian society to function, it needs to have a nation to function in. You can't make a nice clean place in a gutter. You have to fence your space off, or the filth pours in, and there goes your clean space.
Also note the quibcag (quote of the day) there. I'm sure many will recognize the name.

Blogger SciVo April 07, 2016 6:14 PM  

lowercaseb wrote:You are not the only one that is thinking this. I don't have an answer, but I am really noticing that creeping feeling of dread that is surrounding us.

I'm lucky. I live in San Francisco. When Western Civ finally gives way I am going to die pretty damn quickly...probably in an apartment fire.


As a way of possibly sneaking up on an answer to my other question, it occurs to me to ask: If the 400 wealthiest individuals in the world had absolute power to do whatever they wanted, how would things look different?

Blogger Cicatrizatic April 07, 2016 6:23 PM  

This week, we have seen similar pieces from The Federalist, National Review, and now Reason. All stating that the Alt-Right is racist, and that Trump and Alt-Right nationalism are enemies of classical liberalism.

Ian Tuttle (NR), in his piece, says that belief that there are any biological differences between the races is racism. He uses the term "racism" the same way the left does.

None of them address the core problem of cultural incompatibility. That immigrants don't believe in classical liberal ideals and thus will destroy it.

They are intellectually bankrupt, ossified mouthpieces of an ideology that is in the late stages of defeat.

Blogger lowercaseb April 07, 2016 6:35 PM  

Cicatrizatic wrote:This week, we have seen similar pieces from The Federalist, National Review, and now Reason. All stating that the Alt-Right is racist, and that Trump and Alt-Right nationalism are enemies of classical liberalism.

It looks like they learned a lesson from Gamergate. Don't release all 22 of your articles condemning your opponent on the same day.

Other than that...it's the same old screwjob. they only problem is that there is a looming deadline for them to get the message out.

Anonymous Mike April 07, 2016 6:43 PM  

for fuck's sake... when they sat down and wrote The Constitution they deliberately chose tariffs to be the ONLY way to fund the federal government. Direct taxation was explicitly forbidden.


Nate is apparently unaware of the fact that the Founding Fathers were the enemies of Western Civilization. They literally wanted to create a government that had an economic motivation to end Western Civilization or at the very least, keep it from being the height of civilization.

Or rather, maybe every criticism about libertarians being largely a bunch of selfish assholes who would piss all over civilization if that's what it took to enjoy the "freedom" they want like the freedom to import cheap labor and not have to share their profits with their workers through a less competitive, but fairer wage.

Blogger kurt9 April 07, 2016 6:44 PM  

Reason magazine's point might be that what preceded classical liberalism does not qualify as civilization, let alone western civilization.

OpenID denektenorsk April 07, 2016 6:52 PM  

I feel like a schizophrenic. Sometimes I want to strap a Wiley Coyote-style rocket engine to the bullet-train of disaster. Other times I want to slam on the brakes as hard as possible. I can't decide if I want to enjoy the decline or save the west.

Not much you or I can do to stop it. It has to get worse before it gets better. Enjoy the ride and prepare.

Blogger Elder Son April 07, 2016 6:54 PM  

@51 But, but, but, I may not like what you say, but I'll give my life defending your right to say it!

People still spout that crap as if it is the holy grail of liberty. Who in their right mind, would defend anyone with their own life, for their right, to destroy their liberty?

Of course, they are lying. It just sounds cool.

Anonymous BGKB April 07, 2016 7:02 PM  

I live in San Francisco. When Western Civ finally gives way I am going to die pretty damn quickly...probably in an apartment fire.

You still might be able to escape if you have somewhere to go. You might want to get a folding 2 man oceangoing kayak per person to flee when things get bad, & maybe escape somewhere along the shore.

If the 400 wealthiest individuals in the world had absolute power to do whatever they wanted, how would things look different?

Every main street USA would be like Epstein island.

@51 But, but, but, I may not like what you say, but I'll give my life defending your right to say it!

I may not like what you have to say but I will watch & laugh when you get attacked by your pet non Asian minority while not being able to give a good description of him, possibly yelling die verse city is strength

Anonymous Steve April 07, 2016 7:02 PM  

I may not like what you say, but I'll give my life defending your right to say it!

Voltaire said that.

Of course, Voltaire also used his influence to have his critics ruined.

C'est l'hypocrisie.

Anonymous kfg April 07, 2016 7:13 PM  

"Voltaire said that."

No, he didn't.

Anonymous johnc April 07, 2016 7:29 PM  

The "Enlightenment" era is when Western Civilization really started to go off the rails. It loses sight of an important fact: that error has no rights.

Anonymous Godfrey April 07, 2016 7:30 PM  

I cancelled my subscription "Reason" magazine well over a decade ago when I realized it wasn't about reason at all.

Anonymous BGKB April 07, 2016 7:31 PM  

I will concede that gays might not be the best politicians.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3528236/Male-Norwegian-politician-raped-asylum-seeker-says-feels-GUILTY-attacker-deported-man-suffer-Somalia.html

Anonymous Godfrey April 07, 2016 7:33 PM  

A vote for Cruz is a vote for the establishment.

Also...

If anyone argues with you about building a wall, just mention that Israel has a wall and watch the blank stare response. In the minds of our Cruz Cult friends, Israel is sacrosanct.

Anonymous Ezekiel Cassandros April 07, 2016 8:03 PM  

SciVo wrote:Why has seemingly the entire world devolved into oikophobic anarcho-tyranny at precisely the same moment? It seems too much of a coincidence for something so highly specific to become so widespread so quickly.

The same reason the West is importing rape culture at the same time parts of the West are stridently declaring that we already have one. If it's not Screwtape-esque coordinated enemy action, who can tell the difference?

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother April 07, 2016 8:39 PM  

How did (t)Reason get so stupid? I can't believe this. I know some people who read this article and probably ejaculated immediately.

Blogger VFM #7634 April 07, 2016 8:41 PM  

The "Enlightenment" era is when Western Civilization really started to go off the rails. It loses sight of an important fact: that error has no rights.

@73 johnc
Really going off the rails was after Error insisted it was equal to Truth, and then proceeded to take away Truth's rights because it was being mean to Error.

I will concede that gays might not be the best politicians.

@75 BGKB
Since he's a leftist politician who managed to get raped by a Somali, I had assumed he was some garden-variety chipmunk-cheeked pudgy Gamma with chickhips and a punchable cucky face who has managed to look more queer than most queers.

Anonymous Drose April 07, 2016 8:51 PM  

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3528236/Male-Norwegian-politician-raped-asylum-seeker-says-feels-GUILTY-attacker-deported-man-suffer-Somalia.html

Anders Brevik wouldn't be in prison right now if instead of using an assault rifle to kill all those people he had just talked them into killing themselves. In the name of diversity!

Blogger Scott6584 April 07, 2016 8:54 PM  

Yeah. I read that article this morning, and it didn't make go's sense to me. It is ahistorical.

No country has ever embraced full free trade across borders in modern history. Maybe back when borders could not be reasonably enforced, there was some "free trade" along the border itself. But in the interior, countries have always protected their sovereignty, and vested interests have always demanded protection from hostile trade practices, especially from those who do not pay taxes to the government in question.

Also, if domestic corporations pay a 46% income tax, why shouldn't a foreign company pay a 45% tariff?

Blogger Akulkis April 07, 2016 8:56 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Scott6584 April 07, 2016 8:57 PM  

Of course I think both of those tax rates are exhorbitant. That is why a 10% flat tax for individuals and 16% flat corporate rate work for me - as long as there is a corresponding 16% tariff on all imports.

Blogger Akulkis April 07, 2016 9:01 PM  

@5

>The old joke USSR joke:
>There is no truth in Pravda, and no news in
> Isvestia".
>


You have it backwards. I've studied Russian for years, and am handy enough with the language that I can wander around St. Petersburg or Moscow for weeks at a time without need of a translator. Private study, and then couple college courses & other periods with a native-speaker tutor have been all helpful. My biggest issue is that I don't HEAR the language enough to have a free-flowing conversation (I have a very difficult time understanding as fast as people normally talk), but I tend to do alright in internet chats.

First, in Russian
pravda = "truth"
izvestia = "news"

The correct quote (as I read from a Russian joke book PUBLISHED IN RUSSIA IN RUSSIAN) is:

"There is no news in 'Pravda', and there is no truth in 'Izvestia'"

More plainly, "there is no news in the publication 'Truth', and there is no truth in the publication 'News'"

Carry on.

Anonymous AmStrat April 07, 2016 9:09 PM  

@Akulkis

Watch movies and TV, lots of input does wonders.

Blogger JaimeInTexas April 07, 2016 9:26 PM  

In those days citizenship in these uSA was through being a citizen in a State in union.
Things have really changed.

Anonymous #8601 Jean Valjean April 07, 2016 9:37 PM  

You might want to get a folding 2 man oceangoing kayak per person to flee when things get bad, & maybe escape somewhere along the shore.

I have a couple of folding Oru Kayaks which I highly recommend. You can find them at orukayak.com

Blogger Joshua Sinistar April 07, 2016 9:56 PM  

This blatherskite reminds me of an old 80s movie called Head Office with Judge Reinhold and Eddie Albert. The CEO of INC wants to overthrow a country in Central America because they won't let a Fried Chicken Franchise open there. Reinhold's character says, "My God America isn't a Fried Chicken Franchise!" These loony free trade shills seem to think economics is the whole world.
Most Libertarians nowadays are just potheads who use Ayn Rand to roll their doobies. Non aggression principle is just pacifism dressed up in leather. It looks good but its still daily anal rape by the Strong because you don't own a nice shiny gun.
Reagan said Trust but verify. I say intimidate enough with your strength and the only thing that will bother you is hot girls who want to share your bed. Those are the interruptions I can live with.
Western Civilization and America only come in White. If you don't like it: GET OUT.

Blogger Doom April 07, 2016 10:05 PM  

Who honestly reads Reason anymore? At 50k (if I doubt that), no matter how lauded (by msm), it's not to be given any real credence. I suppose it might be considered a starting gig for noobs and an ending place? Not really sure what their writing stable looks like, though it sounds pretty rank, typical. Then again, isn't that pretty much what one would expect to hear from a msm publication, perhaps going even further?

Admittedly, it did take me a bit to come around on free trade myself. If I wasn't exactly a devotee either, simply more on that than your side to start. Not quite a fence sitter, though maybe a fence leaner, quite willing to throw refuse over to see how well you picked it up. Though doing it on both sides, to see what the water carriers can do with it is best. :) I like me. Still, you were right, as I see it, finally.

Blogger praetorian April 07, 2016 10:37 PM  

Is the movement from libertarianism to nationalism the intellectual story of our times?

I know The Right Stuff is almost entirely ex-libertarians. Seems like many (most?) of the Ilk are too.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash April 07, 2016 10:51 PM  

Non aggression principle is just pacifism dressed up in leather. It looks good but its still daily anal rape by the Strong because you don't own a nice shiny gun.

It's not pacifism. Pacifism takes a very specific kind of physical courage and mental discipline. It's cowardice.

Blogger SciVo April 07, 2016 10:52 PM  

@90:

Yes and no.

I've been all over the map politically, including even left-libertarian, but the one thing I've always been is pro-American. So when I see that I can't have anything else I value without a border, then that becomes the most important thing.

I just went straight-up American nationalist -- Already-Americans first! -- since I didn't have a deep commitment to anything else but originalism (so no contradiction there). But increasingly, I've seen libertarians adding the nationalist modifier.

So they probably aren't "ex" libertarians on the libertarian-authoritarian axis; but there is definitely a strong pivot (or at least clarification) on the nationalist-globalist axis.

Anonymous Jack Amok April 07, 2016 10:54 PM  

You still might be able to escape if you have somewhere to go. You might want to get a folding 2 man oceangoing kayak per person to flee when things get bad, & maybe escape somewhere along the shore.


I wouldn't recommend it - some rather large Great Whites cruise off northern California.

Blogger SciVo April 07, 2016 11:04 PM  

Jack Amok wrote:I wouldn't recommend it - some rather large Great Whites cruise off northern California.

I bet there's a way to hook up some electrical pulse generator to make their brains disrecognize your kayak as prey. (Whaaat?! That not food heartbeat!) Has no one done that yet?

Blogger lowercaseb April 07, 2016 11:54 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger lowercaseb April 08, 2016 12:01 AM  

Snidely Whiplash wrote:It's not pacifism. Pacifism takes a very specific kind of physical courage and mental discipline. It's cowardice.

Exactly, I remember hearing a long time ago one of my uncles saying "It's not passive resistance and nonviolence when you are just getting your ass beat and you are too weak and cowardly to do anything about it."

Blogger lowercaseb April 08, 2016 12:04 AM  

lowercaseb wrote:@BGBK

@Prisononer24601

#8601 Jean Valjean wrote:You might want to get a folding 2 man oceangoing kayak per person to flee when things get bad, & maybe escape somewhere along the shore.

I have a couple of folding Oru Kayaks which I highly recommend. You can find them at orukayak.com


My Dad was a hardcore sailor and taught me to sail, but that the idea by BGBK and you is so brilliant that I think dad will refrain from turning in his grave at the idea of me becoming a Kayaker.

In all seriousness, that is a really good idea. I will check that out.

Blogger lowercaseb April 08, 2016 12:09 AM  

Jack Amok wrote:You still might be able to escape if you have somewhere to go. You might want to get a folding 2 man oceangoing kayak per person to flee when things get bad, & maybe escape somewhere along the shore.



I wouldn't recommend it - some rather large Great Whites cruise off northern California.


Oh, I am regularly reminded that our beaches are cold, rocky and full of Sharks, but I would just need something to get across the bay and more inland toward the Marin/Northbay side.

Anonymous Jack Amok April 08, 2016 12:10 AM  

Oh, I am regularly reminded that our beaches are cold, rocky and full of Sharks, but I would just need something to get across the bay and more inland toward the Marin/Northbay side.

Right, because the people in Marin are so normal...

Anonymous Jack Amok April 08, 2016 12:17 AM  

I bet there's a way to hook up some electrical pulse generator to make their brains disrecognize your kayak as prey. (Whaaat?! That not food heartbeat!) Has no one done that yet?

I'm not entirely sure sharks have brains to disrupt. A friend of mine who still lives in Norcal sent me a link about a shark some outfit tagged with a transmitter. Showed it's track of progress off the coast cruising between SF and Humboldt bay.

Name's "Rex". 26 feet long, 4,230 lbs.

Maybe Kokatat can make you a Kevlar bullet-proof (or shark tooth proof) dry suit. Hold your paddle sideways and Rex probably can't swallow you whole.

Blogger Ahazuerus April 08, 2016 12:17 AM  

Vox

You could add that no president since at least Lincoln has done anything except attack the foundations of classical liberalism.

Blogger lowercaseb April 08, 2016 12:20 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger lowercaseb April 08, 2016 12:21 AM  

Jack Amok wrote:Oh, I am regularly reminded that our beaches are cold, rocky and full of Sharks, but I would just need something to get across the bay and more inland toward the Marin/Northbay side.

Right, because the people in Marin are so normal...


Heh! Point taken, but that was more for following the inland coast to the vallejo estuary and toward the napa river. Lord knows I would not put ashore in Marin. I wouldn't have any back-rubs, hugs or vapes to trade with.

Anonymous Contra1789 April 08, 2016 12:22 AM  

Classical liberalism is the principle of a bourgeoise society that disappeared some time ago. That's why it's a losing fight.

Blogger praetorian April 08, 2016 12:22 AM  

In all seriousness, that is a really good idea. I will check that out.

The bridges won't be blown until well into the SHTF scenario, if it comes. Get across the golden gate to The Great White North Bay and keep going.

Keep your gas tank at least half full out of habit, have a go bag and an weapon or two. You aren't stupid, and you hang out here. You'll see what's coming. This isn't going to be Cloverfield. For all the shit The Ilk talk, California has a shit ton of natural resources, wealth, and grows a lot of food.

Blogger Doc Rampage April 08, 2016 12:23 AM  

anticuck wrote:Classical liberalism has failed western civilization. The underlying beliefs of classical liberalism, that all men are created equal, and that man is inherently good and deserves free speech, the right to vote, ect, are both objectively false.Classical liberalism is not based on the idea that all men are good and deserve free speech; quite the opposite: it is based on the idea that all men are scoundrels that cannot be trusted with too much power over their fellow men, so the people with the power to tax and punish crime and send men to war should not also have the power to limit what people can say or how they can worship. Such power it is too likely to turn into tyranny.

This is one of the most basic and well-known facts about classical liberal thinking. The fact that you don't know it suggests that you have no idea what classical liberalism is.

How can classical liberalism have failed the West when it hasn't been particularly influential for the last hundred years? It was never very influential outside of America and in America it was dealt a severe blow by Lincoln heavily damaged by Wilson, and finally destroyed as a governing principle of the country by Roosevelt. Reagan tried to recover some aspects of it, but his influence did not outlast his administration.

Blaming classical liberals for the fall of the West is like blaming the lowliest ensign for the sinking of the ship because he kept warning the captain about that rock but not convincingly enough for the captain to believe him.

Anonymous Jack Amok April 08, 2016 12:41 AM  

Point taken, but that was more for following the inland coast to the vallejo estuary and toward the napa river. Lord knows I would not put ashore in Marin.

I dunno, my wife's from Marin. If you can make it to the Gravenstein Highway, you might be okay. Actually, Mendicino is probably a good place to ride out a SHTF scenario.

Be careful in Southern Humboldt though. I understand the growers there have a) imported MS-13 members, and (worse) b) bought some black market Russian nerve toxin they spread around to keep people away from their crops. Playing havoc with the wildlife apparently.

Probably not good for the water supply either.

Blogger lowercaseb April 08, 2016 12:47 AM  

praetorian wrote:In all seriousness, that is a really good idea. I will check that out.

The bridges won't be blown until well into the SHTF scenario, if it comes. Get across the golden gate to The Great White North Bay and keep going.


I'm coming perilously close to thread hijacking, but it's worth discussing.

The only trouble I see is not that the bridges will get blown at first, but they will get blocked with panicky, panicky yups and the south bay route will become treacherous as well (not that I would want to go in that direction anyway.)

Plus, you've seen how easy it is to bring this city's traffic to a Standstill.

...but you are right, getting out before instead of during is the smartest path. That awareness going to be the real skill to learn. Especially since I can be stubborn about this city.

and you are right...SF may be my home, but I grew up in the Northbay, and there are lots of places up there to disappear and survive somewhat comfortably until order comes back.

Anonymous Craig April 08, 2016 12:49 AM  

unrestricted trade across national borders is the hallmark of a civilized society speaking of national more specifically nationalism, a way to promote -nationalism in a heterogenous society- would be to REQUIRE ALL Amerocan citizens to serve in the armed forces for at least one year. That would promote Nationalism.

Blogger SciVo April 08, 2016 12:50 AM  

I'm not entirely sure sharks have brains to disrupt.

Influence. Trick. They stop after chomping an arm or a leg and discovering it tastes bad, and they can sense the electromagnetism of heartbeats, so we should be able to find a way to send unprey signals.

Blogger Doom April 08, 2016 12:51 AM  

praetorian,

Don't know if I officially count, might depend upon who you ask. I am still as libertarian as I ever was, if I never went that way fully. I still consider myself a conservative-libertarian. As far as libertarianism to nationalism, isn't that just natural maturing? For me, it's more like the idea of teenager to young adult, only in political terms... in this case after US political and media class conservativism was turned into a globalist zombie. Had to start somewhere, and then shift through gears as nicely or roughly as needed.

Trying to put round pegs in square cuts was fun for a while, had to move on just for the loud crunching sound. Initially soothing, finally irritating.

Anonymous Mr. Rational April 08, 2016 12:57 AM  

I'm amazed that there are people who think they could get down to the shoreline and launch boats to get out without being robbed by those who figured they'd just grab other people's prep stuff.

If you're still in the thick of it when TSHTF, you're probably too late to get out.  As for me, I'm a long way from real "urbanity" but I don't know where I'd go if I had to flee.  There just aren't all that many options.

Anonymous Craig April 08, 2016 1:28 AM  

and another thing that makes me lucky to be alive,... its important to treat people with respect, I am really disgusted with myself for not seeing how important that is , going on these poltical message boards you don't realize how easily and quickly your language and ways of speaking to people can start to get very disrespectful and combine that with the anonymity of the internet and before you know it your tongue becomes wicked and you have a big problem

Anonymous Discard April 08, 2016 2:18 AM  

112. Mr Rational: If you're cornered, fight it out, at least until the other guys back away. Determined, or simply lucky people have come through hellacious crack-ups, and being halfway prepared puts you far ahead of most people.

Anonymous horsewithnonick April 08, 2016 2:40 AM  

Akulkis wrote:@5

>The old joke USSR joke:

>There is no truth in Pravda, and no news in

> Isvestia".

>

You have it backwards. I've studied Russian for years, and am handy enough with the language that I can wander around St. Petersburg or Moscow for weeks at a time without need of a translator. Private study, and then couple college courses & other periods with a native-speaker tutor have been all helpful. My biggest issue is that I don't HEAR the language enough to have a free-flowing conversation (I have a very difficult time understanding as fast as people normally talk), but I tend to do alright in internet chats.

First, in Russian

pravda = "truth"

izvestia = "news"

The correct quote (as I read from a Russian joke book PUBLISHED IN RUSSIA IN RUSSIAN) is:

"There is no news in 'Pravda', and there is no truth in 'Izvestia'"

More plainly, "there is no news in the publication 'Truth', and there is no truth in the publication 'News'"

Carry on.


поезд прекрасен.

Anonymous Cheddarman April 08, 2016 2:48 AM  

There is an electronic device on the market that is supposed to repel sharks. Sharks have an organ that senses electrical fields and apparently the device triggers a pain response in that organ.

Blogger Cogitans Iuvenis April 08, 2016 2:55 AM  

I would describe my self as such though I a am not dogmatic about it. At some point observable reality has to supersede ideology and sadly libertarians are just about as prone to ideological myopia as leftists.

Anonymous cheddarman April 08, 2016 2:58 AM  

"Shark shield" is the device. They have a website with video of it repelling great whites.

Blogger SciVo April 08, 2016 3:14 AM  

OT: Babymetal Makes U.S. T.V. Debut on Stephen Colbert, of all places.

Blogger SciVo April 08, 2016 3:19 AM  

cheddarman wrote:"Shark shield" is the device. They have a website with video of it repelling great whites.

See, I'm not at all surprised it already exists. I'm only surprised they don't have Babymetal doing their ads.

Anonymous Littlest Hellhound April 08, 2016 3:23 AM  

@51 Classical liberalism believes people should be treated equal before the law. Not that they are 'created equal'.

Classical liberalism doesn't believe free speech is a right. It's a good idea. If you suppress opinions, you have no social tools for distinguishing useful and useless ideas because you only hear one side of every argument. You can't have positive social or technological change without free speech because iconoclasts are always a minority and are typically unpopular to start with. There's a reason why dictatorships are usually backwards shitholes and why the Soviets created a bubble where their scientists could be controversial without being murdered.

If you're losing the battle of feminism, don't blame free speech. You need to propose a more attractive alternative.

You can be a classical liberal and pragmatic on border controls. The obsession with open borders is associated with rich city dwellers and businesspeople who want cheap labour.

Blogger tz April 08, 2016 3:30 AM  

Free trade is another "scientific" hoax. Another is the fat/calories make you fat

Free Trade is the economic equivalent of the fat/calorie or climate change. A deadly, hurtful dogma pronounced by academics pretending it is "scientifically true" no matter what the clear experience of the results are.

Blogger Wes April 08, 2016 3:33 AM  

and no leader who seeks the power to shut down newspapers who criticize him can be trusted to defend classical liberalism from its enemies.


And I'll bet this twit worships Abe Lincoln.

Blogger SciVo April 08, 2016 3:37 AM  

Littlest Hellhound wrote:You can be a classical liberal and pragmatic on border controls. The obsession with open borders is associated with rich city dwellers and businesspeople who want cheap labour.

I love conflict so I'm going to politely disagree and say that while you are correct on the second point, it is absurd to claim that you can be both a classical liberal and pragmatic on border controls.

Blogger tz April 08, 2016 3:41 AM  

@90, @105 - Today, to be a libertarian is to be a nationalist. The EU is not importing immigrants from Galt's Gulch and neither are we.
Read James Wesley, Rawles "Promised Land" - It is about a future libertarian nation.

Free trade imports socialism and tyranny. Open borders imports socialists and tyrants.

One point on SHTF - see how sustainable the farming is in CA without power that requires maintenance.

Blogger tz April 08, 2016 4:02 AM  

@51 Western Civilization assumes Man is fallen, corrupt. Classical liberalism can coexist because Government attracts the most fallen and corrupt, so must be limited. Limiting speech will always be to silence political opponents, but the difficulty is you must be strong and never let in anyone who would limit speech. There can be no freedom to be a tyrant. (see truth/error above for a parallel).

The NAP is irrelevant if there is no penalty for violating it. Here's my version:
Never draw first.
Aim at the right target.
Always finish the fight.
The first is the NAP, the next two insures the first will be recognized.

Blogger lowercaseb April 08, 2016 4:10 AM  

Mr. Rational wrote:I'm amazed that there are people who think they could get down to the shoreline and launch boats to get out without being robbed by those who figured they'd just grab other people's prep stuff.

If you're still in the thick of it when TSHTF, you're probably too late to get out.  As for me, I'm a long way from real "urbanity" but I don't know where I'd go if I had to flee.  There just aren't all that many options.


Well, the one good thing about being urban during the SHTF is that you have a good day or two of panic in the streets of everyone trying to get out the regular ways. If you missed the early warning signals, but aren't bunkering up you could probably get to the shore without issue. there are lots of walkable ways that don't take you through population centers (thank goodness for the Presidio) and the folks inclined to go bandit that early would probably hit the easy targets stuck on the onramps and on the bridge.

of course, this is all guesswork. No one is going to know what happens until it happens.

Blogger lowercaseb April 08, 2016 4:21 AM  

tz wrote:One point on SHTF - see how sustainable the farming is in CA without power that requires maintenance

Oh you are right for central CA. They will screwed without that aquaduct water.

Heck, I didn't even think about SF once the Hetch Hetchy water is shut off.

But Northern CA would do reasonably well for sustenance farming once you start getting inland...but I am no expert on this area so I am going to clam up before I embarrass myself.

I'm just happy that my odds went from burning to death in an apartment to my body being found floating in the SF bay in an inverted Kayak. I'll have to get my skills up before I have to worry about starving to death.

Blogger tz April 08, 2016 4:25 AM  

Let me give an example why free trade imports socialism and tyranny. Why are Carrier and Ford moving plants there? Because it is a free, libertarian place so has natural entrepreneurial advantages? Or because it is subsidized or they are cooperating with the tyrants?
Imports and exports balance, and we export liberty so have less of it. Instead of free workers here, they become wards of the state on unemployment or welfare or disability - that is the less visible socialism we import.

Blogger SciVo April 08, 2016 4:36 AM  

lowercaseb wrote:of course, this is all guesswork. No one is going to know what happens until it happens.

Which is why it's crazy to have anything less than a community that knows you and cares about you. And it isn't hard. Just go places and get to know people. Bars worked for me, maybe churches would work for you, whatever.

Blogger lowercaseb April 08, 2016 5:05 AM  

SciVo wrote:lowercaseb wrote:of course, this is all guesswork. No one is going to know what happens until it happens.

Which is why it's crazy to have anything less than a community that knows you and cares about you.


Amen to that. For me it's extended family. They all live up north and they have a plan. I'm the one that was seduced by the SF wages, so it's my own dumb fault if I get stuck in a flypaper trap...but we do have a plan that I can be a part of if I get out.

that said, you do have a very good point. I should find community here as well. I've been arrogant in assuming that I am the only conservative in town.

Ow. I just realized that sounds amazing similar to a secret kingdom.

Blogger Arthur Isaac April 08, 2016 5:05 AM  

@47, mentally checked out or substantially accomplished everything that they had hoped to accomplish and are now just phoning it in?

Blogger SciVo April 08, 2016 5:24 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Rusty Fife April 08, 2016 5:28 AM  

SciVo wrote:I'm not entirely sure sharks have brains to disrupt.

Influence. Trick. They stop after chomping an arm or a leg and discovering it tastes bad, and they can sense the electromagnetism of heartbeats, so we should be able to find a way to send unprey signals.


The Air Force and Navy study this a lot; downed pilots. The only mechanism that kept them from attacking is electrical isolation. They will still bump a double bottom raft to see if it behaves like prey.

There may be newer research.

Blogger SciVo April 08, 2016 5:30 AM  

lowercaseb wrote:that said, you do have a very good point. I should find community here as well. I've been arrogant in assuming that I am the only conservative in town.

Ow. I just realized that sounds amazing similar to a secret kingdom.


Eh, don't worry about it. You're not the only nationalist libertarian in town, even in such a freaky town as that one. There's bound to be people that are happy to see you.

Blogger SciVo April 08, 2016 5:39 AM  

Rusty Fife wrote:The Air Force and Navy study this a lot; downed pilots. The only mechanism that kept them from attacking is electrical isolation. They will still bump a double bottom raft to see if it behaves like prey.

There may be newer research.


Awesome! I would like to know newer data if any, but that's good to know. Electrical isolation, double bottom.

Blogger Rusty Fife April 08, 2016 6:11 AM  

SciVo wrote:Awesome! I would like to know newer data if any, but that's good to know. Electrical isolation, double bottom

A sail rig for the kayak might be useful on a long haul.

Blogger JaimeInTexas April 08, 2016 6:38 AM  

Folding kayaks on the ocean, uh, no thanks. Only in extremis, perhaps.

Blogger JaimeInTexas April 08, 2016 6:41 AM  

Sharks home in to electrical pulses.

Blogger JaimeInTexas April 08, 2016 6:47 AM  

Hobie has some very equipment but very expensive. A large boat can be built with enpty plastic bottles.

Anonymous old man in a villa April 08, 2016 6:50 AM  

"...unrestricted trade across national borders is the hallmark of a civilized society..."

Like North Korea or Apartheid South America?

These guys always stick to their guns until you bring up something that goes against their other ideologies and then it's waffling and exceptions.

Anonymous Eduardo April 08, 2016 8:19 AM  

Apartheid... South... AFRICA...

Anonymous kfg April 08, 2016 8:19 AM  

"Folding kayaks on the ocean, uh, no thanks. Only in extremis, perhaps."

A folding Klepper kayak has done a transatlantic. Coasting in them is no problem.

If I were to run to sea however, rather than along the coast, I'd want something along the lines of a Tanzer 22 or older generation Catalina 22 with a low, understressed rig. Durability and reliability over speed.

Blogger James Dixon April 08, 2016 8:25 AM  

> I wonder how #OnlyBlackLivesMatter will do up against the Jihad?

Islam has never rejected slavery. They'll do fine, just not in the position they expect.

> If the 400 wealthiest individuals in the world had absolute power to do whatever they wanted, how would things look different?

What makes you think they don't have such power?

> Ian Tuttle (NR), in his piece, says that belief that there are any biological differences between the races is racism.

So natural skin pigmentation is not a biological difference? Isn't it a good thing we have Mr. Tuttle to explain these things to us?

> Reason magazine's point might be that what preceded classical liberalism does not qualify as civilization, let alone western civilization.

It might be. It's an obviously incorrect and stupid point, but that doesn't mean they're not trying to make it.

> No country has ever embraced full free trade across borders in modern history.

There's a historical word for fully free trade across borders. It's call smuggling.

> Of course I think both of those tax rates are exhorbitant. That is why a 10% flat tax for individuals and 16% flat corporate rate work for me - as long as there is a corresponding 16% tariff on all imports.

I could go for that. I think a flat 10% federal sales tax on any goods bought from or so to an incorporated entity (to be collected by the corporation) would probably work better though. There are lots of systems that would be better than what we have now.

Blogger tz April 08, 2016 9:10 AM  

A final death of free trade is precisely what Trump brings up - currency manipulation, but that includes our debt here.

Under a Gold standard, China would have long ago received all our gold in exchange for their goods, but as gold disappeared, the value here would go up, but the velocity might drop. In any case, PQ=MV=GDP would kick in.

Right now what goes the other direction is T-bonds and electronic records representing arbitrary numbers. Most were not born when we had silver coins and "silver certificates".

Note how we are not free to trade in specie but must use fiat currencies.

Blogger tz April 08, 2016 9:14 AM  

My point about Gold is what they call free trade would be self-extinguishing because their accumulated gold would make their stuff more expensive and our stuff less.
Our biggest export is worthless as in unpayable debt, mortgage backed securities is but one form.

Blogger JaimeInTexas April 08, 2016 10:00 AM  

I was born in saltwater, so to speak. Grew up sailing, surfing, spear fishing, etc. For the last 5yrs or so, I have been kayak fishing (bayous, marshes, upper Texas gulf coast). I have seen folding kayaks is videos only. Having experience with adverse waves and weather conditions, I sill day no to folding kayaks in the ocean as a free choice.

Blogger kurt9 April 08, 2016 10:46 AM  

The problem with the Alt-right is that it is collectivist. We get enough collectivism from the left. Why the hell do we need more of it from the right?

Blogger kurt9 April 08, 2016 10:49 AM  

Consider that many of us want to end Muslim immigration into the West because we consider Islam to be incompatible with classical liberalism. To throw out classical liberalism is to throw out the baby with the bath water (or is that the other way around?).

Blogger kurt9 April 08, 2016 10:50 AM  

Do realize that the U.S. as a nation was founded explicitly on the principles of classical liberalism (e.g. the founding fathers such as Jefferson, Franklin, etc. were all classical liberals).

Anonymous roversaurus April 08, 2016 10:59 AM  

Wouldn't someone who promotes "Western Civilization" actually be considered an Internationalist and not a Nationalist?

"Western Civilization" just like "Classical Liberalism" does not have specific national boundaries. Ethnicities and nations within Western Civilization have even warred against one another rather violently so it would seem Western Civilization is an Internationalist concept.

Blogger Rusty Fife April 08, 2016 11:38 AM  

James Dixon wrote:> I wonder how #OnlyBlackLivesMatter will do up against the Jihad?

Islam has never rejected slavery. They'll do fine, just not in the position they expect.


Until they reopen the castratoriums.

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2014/05/the_greatest_murder_machine_in_history.html

Blogger Rusty Fife April 08, 2016 11:42 AM  

JaimeInTexas wrote:Having experience with adverse waves and weather conditions, I sill day no to folding kayaks in the ocean as a free choice.

Agreed. It just depends on what it would take to launch the boat. Kleppers can be assembled in the water and rucked to shore.

Then again, polyethylene is really freaking durable.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash April 08, 2016 11:48 AM  

@kurt9
What has Classical Liberalism done for me lately? You're treating it as an end, rather than a means.

@roversaurus
Western Civilization is an Ur-culture, a set of cultures among fairly similar peoples which share history, philosophy and many traits. French culture and English culture are different, but do have a shared history of 10,000 or more years, and are still based around Christian norms, Aristotle and Charlemagne

Blogger kurt9 April 08, 2016 1:00 PM  

@kurt9

What has Classical Liberalism done for me lately? You're treating it as an end, rather than a means.


What the hell has any meme other than classical liberalism done for me? Classical liberalism has given me the freedom and technology to create the life and possibilities I want out of it. All the other memes seem to want to restrict my freedom of action in how I live my life. Why the hell do I need this for?

Of course classical liberalism is a means and not an end. Any end is, however, purely individual specific. I have a different end than you do. As long as I don't fuck with you, who are you to fuck with me? The problem with all non-libertarian (e.g. non classical liberalism) memes is that they are nothing more than rationalizations for one individual or group of individuals to fuck with others. I'm not interested in being fucked with and i have no interest in fucking with others. Live and let live I say. You can never go wrong with it.

This alt-right/neo-reaction stuff makes clear that Robert Heinlein was right when he said that political labels are meaningless. people divide into two groups, those that want to control other humans and those who have no such desire. I am clearly in the latter group.

I despise collectivism in all forms, not just the leftist versions. Alt-right/neo-reaction is just another form of collectivism repackaged. As such, it far more resembles the Left than us libertarian-types who just want to be left alone.

The person who wants nothing more than to live his/her own live on their own terms, who want nothing more than to be left alone, represents morality in its highest form.

Anonymous roversaurus April 08, 2016 1:35 PM  

@Snidely Whiplash, You said:

Western Civilization is an Ur-culture


Correct, Western Civilization is *not* a Nation. It is not patriotic. It It is internationalist in nature.

The European Union is an example of Western Civilization Internationalism. It is almost entirely composed of nations from Western Civilization.

Western Civilization is *not* The United States of America. Western Civilization is an Internationalist concept.

Blogger JaimeInTexas April 08, 2016 1:42 PM  

I hate my inability to type and to actually see my typos before publishing. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Anonymous johnc April 08, 2016 2:13 PM  

@kurt9

The problem with the Alt-right is that it is collectivist.

That's not a bug; that's a feature.

Do realize that the U.S. as a nation was founded explicitly on the principles of classical liberalism (e.g. the founding fathers such as Jefferson, Franklin, etc. were all classical liberals).

True. The only issue there is that the competence of the views regarding liberty and freedom that made it into the DoI and Constitution are basically one or two notches above functional retardation.

The classic liberals had no sound concept of rights: what they are, where they come from, how they should be protected. It's all a big free-for-all of individualist relativism. This is why you'll see libertarians often talk about how we have a right to all sorts of error and errant behavior. The problem is that nailing down the truth about rights is sort of fundamental to building a society that works for everyone.

Building a civilization that lasts requires a bit more than a mere "just leave me alone" attitude.

Blogger tz April 08, 2016 3:36 PM  

The alt-right is collectively leaving everyone alone.
The whole split is individualists and voluntary communities still need to keep out the collectivists, and they must do so collectively since by definition their enemies are a mob or army willing to get their way using violence.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash April 08, 2016 4:47 PM  

@roversaurus, you nit,
Western Civilization is where the very concept of a nation comes from. Prior to the Middle Ages, there were only tribes and empires, and that still appertains to most of the world.

Western Civilization is the Culture that gave rise to Nations. WC is the context in which nations exist. It is not a polity that threatens your nationhood, it is the mode of thought that makes nationhood possible.
Outside Western Civ, there exists only deracinated bureaucratic man and tribal peon.

Blogger SciVo April 08, 2016 5:09 PM  

James Dixon wrote:> If the 400 wealthiest individuals in the world had absolute power to do whatever they wanted, how would things look different?

What makes you think they don't have such power?


That's the point of the question. It's a thought experiment to test whether maybe they're to blame for the global rise of oikophobic anarcho-tyranny, and I'm kind of stumped. What do they want?

Blogger SciVo April 08, 2016 5:21 PM  

kurt9 wrote:The problem with the Alt-right is that it is collectivist.

In what sense, and how is that similar to or different from other uses of the term?

kurt9 wrote:Do realize that the U.S. as a nation was founded explicitly on the principles of classical liberalism (e.g. the founding fathers such as Jefferson, Franklin, etc. were all classical liberals).

So would every classical liberal also describe himself as an originalist (and vice-versa), and if not why not? I ask because I'm an originalist, yet hesitate to describe myself as a classical liberal because I think the term has been perverted.

OpenID aew51183 April 08, 2016 5:27 PM  

@157

I find this post interesting and would be interested in some sources for your assertions.

Blogger kurt9 April 08, 2016 5:45 PM  

@JohnC

You make clear that the alt-right is conceptually no different than the left as I consider all forms of collectivism to be conceptually identical. To claim any different is intellectual fraud and anyone who makes such a claim is nothing more than a con-man. The alt-right is really no different than the left. Both are mirror images of each other.

I'm convinced that classical liberalism provides the only consistent definition of rights and liberty because it is the first world-view to be based on the concept of individual autonomy. Thus, I am a classical liberal. There may be something better than classical liberalism in the future. But the alt-right is definitely not it.

TZ,

You've got a better answer and, yes, lovers of liberty do have the right (and responsibility) to work both individually and collectively to keep the enemies of liberty out of their societies. however, unlike JohnC, rejection of the enemies of liberty does not require the rejection of liberty (and autonomous self-ownership) itself. One does not fight tyranny (collectivism) by creating another tyranny. One fights tyranny with liberty.

tyranny vs. liberty is the ultimate battle of the universe. anyone who suggests otherwise is a con-man.

Blogger kurt9 April 08, 2016 5:57 PM  

I just thought of another reason why collectivism is obsolete. Automation and robotics is making it such that there simply is no major accomplishment that requires the concerted efforts of millions of people. Consider that the semiconductor fab and commercial airliner are probably the two most complicated things made by man. The semiconductor fab is build by the concerted efforts of a few hundred people and operated by 100-200 hundred, at most, once its up and running. Boeing planes are still essentially built by hand (for various reasons of corporate culture and inertia). However, there are start-up companies building jet planes that have only a few hundred employees.

Even war is not immune to this process. Much of the military will be automated with various robots and drones by 2030, thus obsoleting the idea of mult-million man armies.

Indeed, I can think of only ONE task objective that could use the efforts of millions of people. That is the settlement of the solar system on a grand scale, Gerard O'neill style. There simply is no other endeavor that could potentially require the concerted efforts of millions of people. Since the alt-right (nor the left, for that matter) is reviving the old L-5 Society's efforts to colonize space, one can only conclude that any concept of collectivism is now totally and completely obsolete.

Thanks guys for the entertainment. But I'll stick with classical liberalism.

Blogger Joshua Sinistar April 08, 2016 6:08 PM  

Collectivism is the boogeyman of potheads who see law as an impediment to their stupidity. Individual rights are all well and good, but even John Wayne was not stupid enough to want to fight all the Indians by himself. The idea that you can live by yourself is a theory I would like to see you test Daniel Boone. Get out of your comfy life here in the Civilized World and go live by yourself for a month with no money and live on the land Mountain Man. All you City Slickers like the Paul defectives love to cluck and cuck for standing alone, but I never see any of you tenderfoots leaving the comfy bosom of your store bought beds and balloon construction houses to show us how you have the grit to live by yourself in the woods like your ancestor the Mighty Monkey. Certainly if your forebears the simians who lived by the Tao of Poo could make it in the wild, then certainly all you pot boosting revolutionaries should have no trouble emulating their Mighty Monkey Culture eh?
No man is an island. In a World of standing armies and ravenous hordes of feral savages, the lone City Boy with his bag of pot and his delusions of independence shall be ground down by the sheer force of numbers and your stupid pacifism of Non Aggression. I live by the principle of the food chain. If you want to subjugate me, I shall introduce you to my little friend Mr. Shotgun and you can quickly discard your land lubber ways to learn a whole new curriculum in a School of Fish.

Blogger tz April 08, 2016 6:40 PM  

@166 The question is if lovers of liberty will defend it IF the defense is required to be collective, or certain individuals are affected (John C Wright's example from the seven samurai where three houses needed to be destroyed or they would provide cover and the village would lose). Nature, Geometry, Reality is the problem.

Interestingly JCW and Molyneux both have come to the conclusion about the importance of raising rational children - the latter points out you won't have an anarchy without a generation or two of "peaceful parenting", while Wright points out that children must be trained in virtue so points out society must protect that. There's a podcast I'd love to hear.

@168 I wouldn't put it quite that way, but I agree in general. They somehow think that removing government will leave everything else better. That is why "So Somalia should be your ideal...". Another dismissal except from Molyneux who simply notes it isn't full of libertarians or even something close.

I would add one thing. How may have ever shot a gun even once? Or as I put it, you can only respond philosophical hollow points. I have hollow points of a different kind.

Constitutionalist Christians are also trying to determine how to reminimize and what the minimum government is, but the fundamental thing they agree with Molyneux and Wright is that the individuals must act very morally without it being a mere "don't get caught".

Creating moral people is hard. Transforming one barbarian is harder.

Blogger tz April 08, 2016 6:45 PM  

For that matter, to throw off a tyranny of any sort requires collective action. Most libertarians are too busy hunting heretics and excommunicating those who don't share their views precisely. The most recent is uber anarchist Walter Block who founded Libertarians for Trump (Good debate on Tom Woods podcast today).

Trump is doubly useful here. Liberty cannot merely be a principle or theory, it must be practical and acted upon. Trump will shatter the establishment. We can likely build a much smaller government on top of whatever Trump leaves, than trying to do so on an 8 more years accumulation on top of the existing garbage heap.

Blogger SciVo April 08, 2016 7:06 PM  

kurt9:

I get that you're all butthurt and sperging since no one actually wants individualism, since going life alone really sucks. But you might consider that nationalism is closer to your ideal than globalism is, and we're the only effective opponents to the One World Government.

Or I guess you can shake your fist at us while benefiting from our work. That would be consistently libertarian.

Blogger tz April 08, 2016 7:14 PM  

@167 - Complex things still require a collective. It is not the size of the collective that defines collectivism, but that a number of individuals must act together in unanimity or nearly so.

But you also just focus on the final product - the plane or the fab. Each contains parts, each of which is the product of a similar collective, both in manufacture and design.

Consider there are no Semiconductor Fabs here in the high plains. What would it take to create a factory that is producing a new RISC processor (or even licensing the ARM architecture)? We need silicon, but also gallium, arsenic, copper, and silver. The chemicals to do the etching. The X-ray optics. The CAD and other designers to lay out the chip. The machines that run and control this including circuit boards.

Then what do you do with the chips - for a cell phone you need the radio infrastructure, GPS (rockets anyone?), displays, more.

It is more complex than a pencil which is a classic explanation.

I wonder where the military gets all the electronics that we can't manufacture here.

Blogger SciVo April 08, 2016 7:43 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Joshua Sinistar April 08, 2016 8:05 PM  

Oh look a Cruzbot just entered the room. Security! Sigma? I do not think that word means what you think it does.
The size of government seems to have become a fetish for libertarians. They imagine that limiting its size will limit its powers, but this is just prosaic thinking which imagines direct correlation between size and control. I'm surprised at the lack of imagination.
The Government is not good or bad due to size but to focus. All Government power is force. How it applies the force determines whether it is good or bad. A large government could still be good if it focused on punishing crime, providing essential public services and defending the interests and safety of its citizens. However, any government no matter its size would be bad if like ours it tries to tell you what to eat, censors your speech and restricts your freedoms.
Take the teleplay "The PRISONER" with Patrick McGoohan. The Village is small and the government is simply a single hut run by Number 2 with sophisticated surveillance, but with spies hidden amongst the population and a simple McGuffin like the Rover it controls every prisoner in the village including highly trained and deadly Number 6. The government apparatus is tiny, the controllers hidden and the only rule is conformity, but it is still a police state and prison camp.

Anonymous jOHN MOSBY April 08, 2016 8:09 PM  

"Collectivism is the boogeyman of potheads who see law as an impediment to their stupidity. Individual rights are all well and good, but even John Wayne was not stupid enough to want to fight all the Indians by himself."
Amen. It's one thing to be a individuals, (Libertardian's love to blab about Ayn the ESKIMO Rand's bullshit Objectivism )But when confronted with " We must all get on the same page, or we are all doomed together." ( a nation without borders, common culture or rule of law.) The best they come up with is :
" Well, i'd like to hear your plan ! "
They don't want to hear it .
When TSHTF, don't count on the " Reason " fucks for anything.
Who in blue hell needs 'em ?
They won't be any help, and they will damn sure try to be a hindrance. Fuck big L'S .

Anonymous jOHN MOSBY April 08, 2016 8:25 PM  

"I wonder where the military gets all the electronics that we can't manufacture here."
From our bestest buddies in the whole wide world, da chinks.
if you can't trust them, who can you ?

Anonymous johnc April 08, 2016 8:47 PM  

@kurt9

You make clear that the alt-right is conceptually no different than the left as I consider all forms of collectivism to be conceptually identical.

Ohh, I don't know about that. I'm not really a part of the alt-right and I really couldn't speak for that movement. I'm not even familiar enough with it.

I'm convinced that classical liberalism provides the only consistent definition of rights and liberty because it is the first world-view to be based on the concept of individual autonomy. Thus, I am a classical liberal.

You're certainly welcome to build your bridge atop a foundation of error, just don't expect us all to walk across it.

tyranny vs. liberty is the ultimate battle of the universe.

Maybe you're just wrong here.

Anonymous johnc April 08, 2016 8:57 PM  

To reiterate VD's central point in the OP, Western Civilization is kinda old.

Thomas Aquinas had some pretty solid writings on things like rights and freedoms -- you know, like a few centuries before the Enlightenmentards even sprung on the scene with their inflated new-age egos.

Blogger Joshua Sinistar April 08, 2016 9:32 PM  

The Left has a hard-on for rights. They seem to see them as magically bestowing benefits all by themselves simply for existing. Magical thinking is the singular thing that always seems to present itself to those who trust mankind and do not believe in higher powers. Whether it is those magical human rights that no one enforces and is denied by virtually any sovereign government not overrun with lunatics, or those fake made up rights bestowed by people wearing robes who decide cases based on personal opinions or behavior, these lunatics simply seem to believe that having some authority say they have a right will magically change their lives for the better. One wonders what kind of magic this is they see in these fake made up rights they so eagerly celebrate? Whether it is there false belief in the right to health care or even their right to murder babies before they get all the way out of the birth canal or the even more stupid right to a minimum income, these deluded fools seem to think that simply having some authority figure claim its a right means they must magically receive it no matter the cost and with no consideration of the source. These fools do not even seem to notice the removal of real Constitutional Rights such as due process, freedom of association, freedom of religion or their former great cause Freedom of Speech. These imbeciles will gladly march into a Gulag if you tell them they can get food, clothing and shelter for free.

Anonymous roversaurus April 08, 2016 9:54 PM  

@ Snidely Whiplash
If "Western Civilization is where the very concept of a nation comes from. Prior to the Middle Ages, there were only tribes and empires"

Then it must not be too hard to pin point the first "nation".
When you do so can you describe how it is different than the other places that look like a nation?

I think Japan would be hard for you to develop a definition of nation that applied to post middle ages Europe and didn't apply to Japan at various times prior to the middle ages.

Large area of ethnically identical people under a single government.

I don't see how Post middle ages europe is the location of the first nations.
Is it the patriotism/nationalism that extended beyond the tribe?
The Mongols and Chinese were proud of their accomplishments and certainly you can see that the Citizens of Rome were patriotic and Roman citizenship extended far beyond Rome. You might call it an Empire but then why isn't post Middle Ages England an Empire and not a nation? The same for France, Portugal and Spain?

Blogger Joshua Sinistar April 08, 2016 10:31 PM  

Roversaurus your ignorance of history is staggering. The Roman Empire is where most of the nations you see on the map today come from. The Roman Republic was formed from a City State that expanded outward and conquered neighbors. France is the result of Julius Caesar conquering Gaul. Gaul was made up entirely of tribes before he got there. When he conquered Vercingetorix, Caesar built fortress towns to hold the territory to allow Rome to intercept Germanic Tribes who were raiding the Empire. Being mostly cattle farmers, the Gauls clustered around the fortress towns for protection, which eventually led to permanent residences. After the Roman Empire fell a lot of these fortress towns became City States, which formed alliances to defend from raiders like the Visigoths who were tribal. When Charles the Great or Charlemagne took over as the leader of the Franks he consolidated them into a force that later became France after a period of internecine wars and conquests of England another Roman province that became a Nation State.
Japan was a mess of warring clans until fairly recently. They played a game of dominance by taking control of the Emperor, a God King all the Japanese recognized. Even though the Emperor was seen as the ruler, he was mostly a puppet controlled by the Clan who controlled him and his court. Although the Clan who controlled the Emperor was dominant, they were still not a real nation as it is known today. It was a feudal system of rival Lords who fought constantly with armies of Samurai. Samurai back then were mostly mercenaries whose loyalty was not guaranteed. It wasn't until the powerful Shogun appeared that everything changed. He conquered all the competing clans and took control of the Emperor for leverage. He introduced Bushido, the Way of the Sword to introduce a code of honor and induce loyalty in the Samurai. Under Bushido, Samurai were required to be loyal to their Lord and prevented the instability of previous eras. The Shogun was the true beginning of Japan as the Shogunate of Nippon or later Japango was formed.

Anonymous roversaurus April 08, 2016 11:09 PM  

@Joshua Sinistar
There are roughly 190 nations in the world. Most of them were never part of the Roman Empire. Not a single nation from North or South America, most of Africa and Asia were never part of the Roman Empire.

Most nations were a mess of warring clans until "fairly recently" Have you even looked at the history of England or France? Have you heard of the Hundred Years War?

Can you actually provide a definition of "Nation" that precludes ALL human organization prior to the middle ages? It just can't be done without a bunch of mumbo jumbo.

Blogger kurt9 April 08, 2016 11:09 PM  

SciVo, I've got no problem with nationalism. I even think Trump is far better than any of the other candidates running for president. I want him to win. You've got to understand that many of us sympathize with your view even if we don't share it. Perhaps you and other non-libertarian right people ought to learn and understand the concept of coalition building. You might get further this way.

JohnC,

I'm convinced that classical liberalism provides the only consistent definition of rights and liberty because it is the first world-view to be based on the concept of individual autonomy. Thus, I am a classical liberal.

You're certainly welcome to build your bridge atop a foundation of error, just don't expect us all to walk across it.


I don't expect you to walk across it. Indeed, I don't care what you think as I have no desire to convert you or anyone else to my thinking (I am a true libertarian). As long as you don't fuck with me, I don't care what you believe in.

tyranny vs. liberty is the ultimate battle of the universe.

Maybe you're just wrong here.


No. Either I am right or, more far more likely, there simply is no ultimate battle at all. I lean towards the latter possibility these day. In any case, only these two possibilities are correct. All other possibilities are completely impossible.

Perhaps the "ultimate battle" is the right wing hoax equivalent to the global warming hoax of the left. I don't want anything do to with whatever you believe in, nor do I think it is necessary for the continuation opf technological civilization. Whatever you believe in is your thing and business and could never be relevant to me (it is a psychotic delusion to think otherwise). Whatever you believe in could never be of any use or value to me.

Anonymous jOHN MOSBY April 08, 2016 11:42 PM  

". I want him to win. You've got to understand that many of us sympathize with your view even if we don't share it." Then what should one do do to make you feel much more better ?



'

Anonymous jOHN MOSBY April 09, 2016 12:04 AM  

Libertarians want us to do the fighting and they will help us run the country , due to the "coalition building skills tey is gonna brings to da table.
Lawdy mercy who would pass dat dere deal up ?
FUCK OFF.

Anonymous jOHN MOSBY April 09, 2016 12:29 AM  

"For that matter, to throw off a tyranny of any sort requires collective action. Most libertarians are too busy hunting heretics and excommunicating those who don't share their views precisely. The most recent is uber anarchist Walter Block who founded Libertarians for Trump "
Walter doesn't pass the Libertard "purity test ", Like Trump don't pass the neocon's "purity test "
Not much diff between the two if you ask me.

Blogger kurt9 April 09, 2016 12:30 AM  

A libertarian Milton Friedman once said you can have open immigration or you can have a social-welfare system, but you cannot have both. Additionally, the U.S. used to have import tariffs. All of this along with a commitment to classical liberalism.

There is nothing in classical liberalism that says you cannot do the things that Trump says he wants to do. We can close the borders to Muslim immigration without requiring those of us who live in the U.S. to give up any measure of individual freedom of action for whatever collectivist meme that "JohnC" seems to believe in.

JohnC, it would appear that we can safeguard our country from the enemies of liberty of other parts of the world without those of us who subscribe to it sacrificing our believe in the individual autonomy and self-ownership inherent to classical liberalism.

Now remind me again why we need your collectivist meme at all? Pray tell.

Blogger kurt9 April 09, 2016 12:47 AM  

John Mosby,

I had a response to your post about us libertarians being too pussy to defend ourselvess and out world-view. This is a fairly common critique of libertarians on the part of social conservatives. However, I deleted it because I do not want to call attention to myself (and you guys) on the part of third parties that monitor the internet.

Suffice it to say that this critique is way off base. I can also assure you that there are more effective means for us to do so than to join any kind of large scale human organization that requires us to give up our autonomy and self-ownership.

Anonymous johnc April 09, 2016 12:48 AM  

JohnC, it would appear that we can safeguard our country from the enemies of liberty of other parts of the world without those of us who subscribe to it sacrificing our believe in the individual autonomy and self-ownership inherent to classical liberalism.

People are apt to disagree about who the enemies of liberty are.

And would it make you feel any better if we closed off Muslim immigration only to have the Muslims already living here outbreed everyone else within 100 years?

Anonymous jOHN MOSBY April 09, 2016 12:48 AM  

Libertarians talk and that's all they do.
Nationalists are going to fight for the common good of our collective. As I said, your Libertardians got a "If you are not with us, you must surely be agin' us" moment.
Which is it Libby ?

Blogger kurt9 April 09, 2016 12:54 AM  

The thing about collectivist memes is that they attract people who like to fuck with others who want nothing to do with them. This is like pin-pricking rattlesnakes. Those that do so should not be surprised or upset that they eventually get bit back.

Take it from someone who grew up in the western U.S. The best way to avoid being bitten by rattlesnakes is not to disturb them.

You guys are upset with the collectivist antics of the Left. So are we. What makes you think that we would put up with the collective antics of the Right anymore than the Left? Anyone has to be silly to think that this would ever fly.

Anonymous jOHN MOSBY April 09, 2016 12:58 AM  

"I had a response to your post about us libertarians being too pussy to defend ourselvess and out world-view. This is a fairly common critique of libertarians on the part of social conservatives. However, I deleted it because I do not want to call attention to myself (and you guys) on the part of third parties that monitor the internet."
Oh please. This place is a sewing circle compared to other places on da webz. You must get out more.
"Suffice it to say that this critique is way off base."
Not really. I've seen you cats in action, know how you roll.
The rest of your post is jibber-jabber.

Anonymous jOHN MOSBY April 09, 2016 1:03 AM  

." The best way to avoid being bitten by rattlesnakes is not to disturb them."
If ya shoot'em , you don't get bit .
Deep South wisdom.

Anonymous jOHN MOSBY April 09, 2016 1:18 AM  

"Whatever you believe in could never be of any use or value to me."
Likewise. Lead ,follow or get the hell outta the way.

Anonymous jOHN MOSBY April 09, 2016 1:54 AM  


"You guys are upset with the collectivist antics of the Left. So are we."
I don't even think you guys are as pissed.not even close.

Blogger SciVo April 09, 2016 4:46 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger kurt9 April 09, 2016 12:04 PM  

"You guys are upset with the collectivist antics of the Left. So are we."
I don't even think you guys are as pissed.not even close.

Trust me, we are. We just don't rant about it on the 'net.

What's funny about all of this is that I actually agree with many of the policy points of the alt-right. Stopping Muslim immigration into the U.S. is definitely at the top of the list. I proposed a moratorium on Muslim immigration to the U.S. on my facebook page about a month before Trump proposed the same thing. It generated a shit-storm.

I see no reason to buy into collectivism in general, nor do I think that safeguarding ourselves from the jihadi crap requires us to ditch classical liberalism (and our personal liberty in general) any more than it did to defeat the Soviet Union. Remember, we defeated the mighty Soviet Union without having to give up an ounce of personal (and economic) liberty. We can certainly do the same with regards to Islam.

Indeed, I think a renewed believe in individualism and individual liberty in general is a far stronger defense against totalitarian memes of any flavor. You guys seem to want to fight collectivism with ... collectivism. This does not make much sense at all.

One further point. One of the cardinal tenets of your alt-right/neo-reactionary world-view is HBD - human biodiversity. That there are innate cognitive and behavioral differences between different peoples. Does this not suggest that different memes and cultures are optimized for the needs of different people. Yet many of you seem to subscribe to the same delusion as the liberal-left, namely that there is the One Perfect Meme that is optimized for all humans. This strikes me as a logically self-contradictory.

Blogger kurt9 April 09, 2016 12:08 PM  

"Suffice it to say that this critique is way off base."
Not really. I've seen you cats in action, know how you roll.
The rest of your post is jibber-jabber."

Believe that if you want. I'm not going to argue this point in any technical detail in a public forum such as this.

Blogger Joshua Sinistar April 09, 2016 6:05 PM  

The problem with libertarians is they are misdiagnosing the problem. The problem with the left is not collectivism its that they are insane. The left automatically takes an Anti-American position. There is little or no consistency on policy from the left. They are consistent only in that they oppose the West, America and Civilization. Muslims and feminists have little in common at all. They support both because they both oppose us. There is actually nothing wrong with collective action per se. Every organization including libertarians are an example of collective action. If libertarians were consistent they would not be involved in government at all. Claims that they are running for office to oppose collectivism does not pass the smell test. Irregardless of why they say they are running for office, joining the government is still collective action.
Every country in the world did not come from Rome tis true, but how many are there from Colonialism. Quite a lot. Europe started nations. Most nations are a result of European Colonialism. They were either set up directly or came to be to oppose it.

Blogger Anonymous-9 April 09, 2016 10:16 PM  

Hi Vox,
I've been doing a lot of crying lately as so many people I trusted on blogs and in the media show their true allegiance, and it ain't with the middle class. I own a paid subscription to Reason, and feel like I've been stabbed in the back. So many (metaphorical) knives have been stuck into me over the past two weeks, I feel like a porcupine. How ironic that the site I feel safe enough to show up and emote belongs to the Supreme Dark Lord.

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