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Saturday, May 28, 2016

Anti-semitism debate, part one

Louise Mensch and I debate anti-semitism on Heat Street:
Louise Mensch:     This may surprise the people that have been following our debate thus far, but, I feel like those were all small, little, light-hearted warm up debates, because now we’re going to get into it. Because we’re going to debate anti-Semitism. I want to get a bit granular, because I was surprised and disappointed to see you flaming a very good friend of mine, Cathy Young – who is an equity-based feminist, for those of you that don’t know her, reading this debate – and a long time ally of Gamergate and has worked extremely hard to separate genuine feminism from the kind of “fauxminism” that bullies men for no good reason.

I can’t remember the exact tweet so you can correct me if I’ve got this wrong, but: “…as she would know if she were a real American,” as though she were not an American, or she were less American that you are, which I think is a) racist; b) completely ridiculous; c) unbecoming of an alpha-male who ought to show some loyalty to a tried and tested ally. What I don’t like about this, apart from racism in general, and I say it with reverence, because you of all people know that I’ve been #notyourshield forever, is that it seems to give quite a lot of comfort to those fauxminist harridans, who’ve always said that Gamergate is just about abuse etc … This is a woman who stood strongly with movement forever, and the first sign of disagreement on anti-Semitism and you guys throw her under the bus. So I’ll let you come back, what do you have to say?

Vox Day:     Well, I’m perfectly prepared for things to get hardcore, I’ve been listening to Ministry all afternoon in preparation for this. By the way, I did not know Cathy’s work on Gamergate. We are loyal; until now I did not know.

Louise Mensch:     (Laughs) OK, now I’m scared. Go on.

Vox Day:     First of all, let me point out that, in terms of feminism, Cathy Young committed something that is, in the eyes of the alt-right a … A significant error of the sort that removes any right to avoid criticism. She, very very publicly, and very very vehemently, attacked Ann Coulter. The response that she got was a direct result of that, from me and from others. You can even, if you wish to, portray it as the alt-right white knighting for Ann Coulter. I don’t think that would be accurate but you certainly could do that if you wanted to.

Louise Mensch:     Well Ann Coulter’s been … I mean, you know, please, she attacks herself. She’s been attacked by me and others. She’s said some rabidly anti-Semitic things, about the Jews etc. So …

Vox Day:     I don’t think Ann Coulter’s reasonably said anything that can be considered anti-Semitic. 

Louise Mensch:     How many goddamn Jews do they think there are in America, that kind of thing.

Vox Day:     There’s a difference between … Anti-Semitism, in its historic form, means hatred of Jews.

Louise Mensch:     Yes.

Vox Day:     And there’s a huge difference between hating Jews and wondering why the hell everyone is babbling about them, again, when the subject really has nothing to do with them.

Louise Mensch:     Well in this case Ann Coulter used the words “Jews.” “How many goddamn Jews does he think there are in America,” quote unquote.

Vox Day:     Well yeah, because ..polls show Americans think that 33% of Americans are gay, and certainly there … I don’t know what the exact figure is, I don’t recall a similar study being performed with regards to what percentage of Americans other Americans believe are Jews. I don’t know. But I would guess that the perceived percentage is seriously overestimated, due to the constant discussion of Jews, by American Jews, in the media, because American Jews in the media are prone to navel-gazing.

Louise Mensch:     Vox, Vox, this was Ann Coulter who brought it up herself, who made the remark, herself. Really, as an “Ayn Randian radical,” don’t you recognize this is entirely Ann Coulter’s own fault? She brought it up, nobody else did, she ranted on about the Jews. She outed herself! Nobody else was talking to her about the Jews. On the left it’s people like Ken Livingston in London. He doesn’t seem to be able to go into any interview in London without mentioning the word ‘Hitler’ five times a second. And it was Coulter’s own fault. No one was talking to her about the Jews in Israel. She was commenting on the first Republican debate, and she brought it up, herself, entirely herself, unprompted.

Vox Day:     Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t she discussing the fact that the candidates were discussing Israel, or Jews or something like that?
Read the whole thing there, and discuss it here.

Labels: ,

236 Comments:

1 – 200 of 236 Newer› Newest»
Blogger exfarmkid May 28, 2016 3:30 PM  

IIRC, considering the number of serious issues needing to be addressed, Ann was sick and tired of the debaters - who were all strongly pro-Israel - falling over each other to show they were the most pro-Israel.

Ann forgot that only progressive commentators are allowed to use hyperbole to make a point.

Blogger The Reactionary May 28, 2016 3:37 PM  

The jew cries out in pain as she strikes you.

Blogger The Reactionary May 28, 2016 3:38 PM  

Joe Sobran was right; an anti-Semite isn't someone who hates the jews, it's someone whom the jews hate.

Blogger Crude May 28, 2016 3:46 PM  

Fiery debate.

If you think that people don’t care, young people don’t care, I would say that anecdote is not evidence, and it just is that the young people that you spoke to have zero compassion or zero education. My children care, they all care very much. They’ve been educated about the Holocaust…

She has to take her pick: either anecdote is not evidence, or it is. Vox says he talks to kids and they don't care, she objects that anecdote is not evidence. Her evidence? An anecdote. Better yet, her own freaking kids.

But I have an awful lot more videographic evidence and photographic evidence of the suffering of the Jewish people, in front of me, and therefore our natural humanity is excited by that.

We have evidence of the suffering of everyone in those camps. Not just the jews. So why single out the jewish people here?

More than that - we have photographic evidence of all kinds of suffering. She blows off the suffering of people who were starved to death by Stalin - but we have photographic evidence, video evidence, of just what it means to starve to death.

Yes it has to do with all three of those groups, and you know why? Because they’re all Americans.

She's crazy if she thinks that people coming from Brazil will, by virtue of emigrating, automatically attach deep emotional significance to the holocaust. Her fallback answer seems to be 'If they don't care they're just not educated enough!' which, frankly, is straight from the SJW textbook. For SJWs, if you disagree, if you don't care about something, it's never that you have a different opinion. It's that you're 'not sufficiently educated'. It's bullshit there, and it's bullshit here.

She seriously thinks Dominican immigrants who don't even take pride in America enough to learn the native language well, even after a generation or two, will mimic her pride in the Agincourt victory? Really?

it is using the specific tortures against the Jewish people and specific anti-Semitic slurs used by Hitler, re-employing them to make points for Donald Trump

There's no 'making points for Donald Trump' here. They're trying to piss some people off, or maybe demoralize them. Vox's response here seems dead on correct.

They wanted to show that they were being lied about – which they were – by fauxminist trolls and as a result, if there was somebody who was being genuinely harassed, as the alt-right now do with African Americans and Jewish people, then Gamergate would get on that person, report that person.

What GG did was largely go after false narratives and false flag ops, because there were people tweeting or saying nasty shit in GG's name, which often turned out to be fake. They exposed that. They didn't have 'harassment patrols' where they went around hunting down anyone who would dare do anything that crazy feminists regard as 'harassment'. That's goddamn fiction.

Blogger Crude May 28, 2016 3:46 PM  

And also...

If you think you’re de-fanging racism and sexism, you’re not, you’re proving the point. You’re making these people right. All these people that you said were liars, you’re making them right.

What the alt right is doing is saying they don't give a shit if they're considered racist or anti-semitic. And, to be frank, that attitude is working. Donald Trump was in the same position at the start of his candidacy that the alt-right is in now. They insisted that what he was saying was horribly racist, monstrous and had to be rejected. They played every card Mensch alludes to - photographic evidence? They had washed up dead child refugee photos, they had every sob story you could imagine about illegal immigrants. They insisted Trump was a racist monster as were all his supporters. And he won the nomination.

Mensch comes across as a person who is repeatedly slamming her fist on the 'RACIST' 'SEXIST' 'ANTI-SEMITE' button and screaming 'Why isn't this working, it always worked before, WHEN WILL THIS START WORKING'. Well, it's not working. She says 'the anti-semitism thing isn't going away, people are still writing about it!' Sure, but the difference is, far fewer people care about what journalists are writing on this front now. That's what she doesn't seem to want to accept.

And, that applies to GG too. GG didn't convince journalists that GG was a pure-hearted movement. Journalists to this -day- treat GG as 'woman-hating monstrous squad of terrorists'. It's just that they don't care, and neither does much of anyone else.

Blogger Lovekraft May 28, 2016 3:46 PM  

I hope my fellow minions are above the emotional in order to keep our eyes on the long-term goal. Weathering storms is what made us strong, so remember. Let the leftists, traitors, suck-ups come to us and we shall determine whether their arguments receive attention.

They, not us, were in charge when the entire thing went to sh!t, so they don't get to impose conditions anymore.

Blogger RobertT May 28, 2016 3:50 PM  

" Vox, Vox, this was Ann Coulter who brought it up herself, who made the remark, herself. Really, as an “Ayn Randian radical,” don’t you recognize this is entirely Ann Coulter’s own fault? She brought it up, nobody else did, .."

The comment ... How many goddamn Jews do they think there are in America?

She thinks it's completely inappropriate to talk about the Jews at all? What's the difference between this attitude and Black Lives Matter?

Blogger Eric Slate May 28, 2016 3:52 PM  

There is no such thing as an equity based feminist.

Anonymous Native Baltimoron May 28, 2016 3:53 PM  

The axiomatic racism, sexism, and homophobia of white men is the glue that holds the leftists together. Without a convenient target for the Two Minutes' Hate, the various tribes of the rainbow coalition would be unable to sublimate their conflicting interests into electoral victories.

As the target of said Two Minutes' Hate, I'm looking forward to it being over. Right now, Trump is the best chance of ending it, so I will vote for him, no matter what attitudes are attributed to his supporters by rabid progressives and pearl-clutching cuckservatives.

I suspect my attitude is far from uncommon amongst young white men, c.f. this article in the Atlantic.

Blogger Nathan Wright May 28, 2016 3:58 PM  

"because of my surname, they assume that I have the honor to be Jewish, although I do not"

Cuckservative.wav

She would never, ever say "I have the honor to be white", and would consider anyone that did say it a vile racist.

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 May 28, 2016 4:00 PM  

Louise Mensch sounded like a grand inquisitor.

LM: "Are you or have you ever been a racist?"
VD: "No"
LM: "Then what about this guy you retweeted that one time?"
VD: "Why does that matter?"
LM: "You're a racist. Also my children think the Holocaust was bad."
VD: "Nobody cares"

Blogger Blume May 28, 2016 4:00 PM  

You are far to nice to and let her rant on. I feel you are losing these debates from a lack of fire.

Blogger Elocutioner May 28, 2016 4:01 PM  

Tweet screencaps: http://www.haaretz.com/world-news/1.676293

The candidates were asked "What will America look like after you're President" and most of them immediately assumed the position for Israel. Americans largely don't give a fuck about Israel yet the candidates were pandering for the pro-Israel vote. That's what the comment was about. It wasn't in the least anti-semitic. "What does America look like? Well, let me talk about how we're going to make Israel great!" It was calling out the Israel-first faggots on the stage. If anything it was naive in that she attributed the pandering to pure demographics rather than the ridiculously outsized influence of the Israel-firsters.

Example: Billionaire Sheldon Adelson explicitly saying he was going to support the most pro-Israel candidate in the primaries.

Unlike the others, Trump refused to debase himself as an Israel-firster and he caught a shit-ton of kvetching over it.

Blogger Heaving Bosoms d.b.a. Matthew May 28, 2016 4:01 PM  

The Reactionary wrote:Joe Sobran was right

The only thing Joe Sobran wasn't right about was de Vere being a homo.

Blogger Nathan Wright May 28, 2016 4:01 PM  

"This is not alpha, it’s totally gamma"

I have to smile at this silly woman trying to shame someone using terms she clearly has no concept of.

Blogger tz May 28, 2016 4:02 PM  

Uber v.s Unter.

Anonymous crushlimbraw May 28, 2016 4:08 PM  

A waste of time and type!

Anonymous Goodnight May 28, 2016 4:09 PM  

Jesus Henry Christ. Every time I read one of these debates I picture her as my toddler putting her fingers in her ears and screaming "No it's not! No it's not! I can't hear you!". She just assumes that everybody can see that Coulters' tweet was grossly anti-Semitic and that everybody is just obsessed with the Holocaust.

Blogger tz May 28, 2016 4:10 PM  

Should fucking jews use birth-control?
70% of American Jews voted for Obama in 2012. At some point it doesn't pay to interfere with a suicide.

Anonymous Man of the Atom May 28, 2016 4:11 PM  

Nathan Wright wrote:"because of my surname, they assume that I have the honor to be Jewish, although I do not"

She would never, ever say "I have the honor to be white", and would consider anyone that did say it a vile racist.


Or, "I have the honor to be German" or "I have the honor to be British". Frightening that she's that mind-washed.

Blume wrote:You are far to nice to and let her rant on. I feel you are losing these debates from a lack of fire.

Vox is winning on both the rhetorical and dialectic fronts in these debates, and he's getting more press due to Louise agreeing to debate.

Louise may be a cuck, but unlike most cucks, she seems to have a pair. She puts these debates out for the public to see, pretty much raw. If her reasoning circuits could be repaired, she might make a halfway decent nationalist.

Anonymous BGKB May 28, 2016 4:12 PM  

My opinion of jews was far higher before I dated any. That they are stupid enough to try profiting off of importing moslems who think the holocaust didn't happen but should have, shuts down any claims of jewish high IQ.

Cathy Young – who is an equity-based feminist If she was a reality based she wouldn't be a feminist.

But I have an awful lot more videographic evidence and photographic evidence of the suffering of the Jewish people

That's because the pictures of the Holodomor of ethnic Russians by Jewish Bolsheviks got suppressed by jews in the media.

Blogger tz May 28, 2016 4:12 PM  

(the late) George Burns Gracism. Nascar Race-ism,

Blogger Nathan Wright May 28, 2016 4:14 PM  

"She’s been tweeted pictures of a smiling Donald Trump pushing the button on the gas chambers as he ushered Jews into it, and so have a bunch of other Jews."

What she's missing is that Jews were the first to weaponize "The Holocaust" for political gain. The oven memes are (as Vox says) counter-terrorism. Through mockery they undermine the orthodoxy, that because of "muh six million" everyone has to prostrate themselves before Jewish/anti-racist/whatever political agenda.

Blogger tz May 28, 2016 4:14 PM  

Why, why would you rebel against being taught about one of history’s most appalling massacres, which happened in the modern age and for which rarely therefore, as opposed to in historic massacres, we have photographic evidence?

For the same reason the Abortion holocaust gets little traction with even greater evidence,

Blogger Eric Slate May 28, 2016 4:15 PM  

There is no such thing as an equity based feminist.

Blogger Eric Slate May 28, 2016 4:15 PM  

There is no such thing as an equity based feminist.

Blogger Michael E May 28, 2016 4:18 PM  

I can't figure out why she thinks that the term "negroes" is some kind of racist epithet. When I woke up in the USA, that was the term that black Americans called themselves. I guess that since she is white, she knows better about what we should be called.

Blogger tz May 28, 2016 4:19 PM  

I would fund Planned Parenthood of Tel-Aviv just to expose the hypocrisy.

Anonymous mature craig May 28, 2016 4:19 PM  

I like Ann Coulter





Anonymous Faceless May 28, 2016 4:23 PM  

Everytime Ms. Mensch talks, I like her less. She claims to be some sort of rightist? This must be a really peculiar British variety.

Blogger VD May 28, 2016 4:29 PM  

I feel you are losing these debates from a lack of fire.

Fascinating. I must lose a lot of debates, as I very seldom scream louder than my opponent.

Anonymous Faceless May 28, 2016 4:29 PM  

It sure is an interesting approach she has to debate - she sounds like a woman in the middle of an unending amygdala attack who continues to assert the world as she wants it to be despite any fact presented.

Blogger Salt May 28, 2016 4:30 PM  

So you don’t care that the left was correct about your racism and sexism?

We don’t care what they say or what they think, at all.



Thus endeth the lesson.

Anonymous Millenium May 28, 2016 4:31 PM  

I'm sure you have a strategy with these debates but it looks like you are being walked all ovef by an idiot.

I cannot genuinely work out if Louise is really as stupid as she seems or is willfully refusing to understand what you say.

Why don't you tell her its the polite and grown up thing to let the other person finish instead of talking over them?

You missed a golden chance to plant the seeds of red pills in her audience when she read those three Vaughn tweets. You could have said something like:

"I am not sufficiently versed in the minutae if the history of the time but I do know that bankers, who were heavily jewish, were largely responsible for the crippling poverty in pre-Hitler Germany, that right now over 1000,000 Africans have entered Germany and 100,000 are unaccounted for and that there are a faid number of wealthy and powerful jewish people in the US who have committed unscrupulous acts for which some Americans may have a reflexive backlash. I am not endorsing Vaughns tweets but I will not condemn them out if hand because he may be right, ir partially right. Jewish people in pre-Hitler Germany may have exerted more influence then I am aware and had more hand in creating what seemed a neverending depression, Jewish people at the time may have proposed opening immigration to Africans at the time and there may be a lot more jews in positions if power in the US responsible for more evil than I am aware of."


You let her slide on the Ann Coulter how many jews bit. You could have asked her why no candidates were talking about what they would do for Ireland since America has far more Irish than jews.

Its telling how vehement she was in crying that her kids were not jews. I wonder if her husband is jewish.

If her husband is jewish and she claims her kids are not that opens all sorts of doors of getting her to define what is a jew and why do we need anti-semitism instead of just racism or if anti-semitism is about the religion then why is there no anti-christianity

Anonymous VFM #6306 May 28, 2016 4:31 PM  

SUMMARY

Q: The Alt right are a bunch of scumbags! Why can't they just be civil and shut up in the name of free speech?

A: Because they don't care.

Blogger Nathan Wright May 28, 2016 4:33 PM  

I also love how she pretends that the priority given to the Holocaust above all war tragedies is just due to there being photographic evidence. Nothing to do with Jews and their "you can't criticize us we're victims" shtick. Like, Jews just happen to benefit politically as a side-effect. The mental gymnastics of the cuckservative are something to behold.

Anonymous Faceless May 28, 2016 4:33 PM  

How unsatisfying! At the end, she's not even a particularly good concern troll. She's made clear her hatred of all things Trump; the Ricky Vaughns of the world have adopted a strategy of doing the exact opposite of what their enemies to the left tell them to do.

Blogger Lazarus May 28, 2016 4:34 PM  

Women hate it when you don't care.

Anonymous Faceless May 28, 2016 4:36 PM  

Heat Street doesn't have comments. That's all we need to know about where they are on the political spectrum.

Murdoch is known to have left-leaning operations provided they get the ad revenues.

Blogger VD May 28, 2016 4:39 PM  

I'm sure you have a strategy with these debates but it looks like you are being walked all ovef by an idiot.

Fascinating. An interesting illustration of what registers with midwits and what does not.

You missed a golden chance to plant the seeds of red pills in her audience when she read those three Vaughn tweets.

Oh, no! Planting red pills is, of course, my sole objective in life.

You could have said something like:

The Gamma always has the perfect comeback. Pity it's never timely.

Blogger VD May 28, 2016 4:39 PM  

Heat Street doesn't have comments. That's all we need to know about where they are on the political spectrum.

It's a new site. They will. I think they're trying to decide which system to use. They're all pretty flawed.

Anonymous Millenium May 28, 2016 4:42 PM  

@31: We are reading only what is written, not hearing the actual conversation. On paper it probably looks very different than it sounded. As I read the debate I give both sides a measured tone by default. Perhaps Louise is a raging harpy and you are just saying enough to get her to froth at the mouth more. Perhaps if we listened to the audio we would view the debates differently. On paper it just looks like you fare badly.

Ask Louise to read A Woman In Berlin by Anonymous then explain why none of us have ever been taught that yet we have been beaten around the head by Holocaustinity.

If she wants to bring up modern genocides with plenty of documentation then why not focus on Rwanda?

Anonymous VFM #6306 May 28, 2016 4:43 PM  

Serious question: are her words straightforward, or is she trying to give your position a platform? A few of her rants simply make your case, or lend themselves to an obvious simple retort.

Either way, well done. The more they shriek the more rational you appear.

Blogger Salt May 28, 2016 4:44 PM  

She agrees with the right on some issues. She agrees with Gamergate. Within her agreement she spergs her virtue signaling.

For instance, stop holding the Jews up as paradigms of virtue because Holocaust and well stop throwing them in the ovens. They burn like everyone else. Stop with the blacks' can't be racist because slavery, only whites can be racist. Blacks sold their own. Get over it.

Louise, stop virtue signaling. We just don't care.

Blogger LP9 Solidified in Gold! Rin Integra May 28, 2016 4:53 PM  

Thank you for all you do, this keeps my dads spirits up. I still read to him daily and this is going to be something he will really enjoy,( as my Captain, my patriarch, 2nd, 1st is Our Lord Jesus, dad is blind and paralyzed from a 2nd 2014 stroke. ) Thank you.

This is very insightful discourse, debate, I am fully reviewing it with an open mind. Also these discourses are very important, so helpful, all we need or all those with great minds need to do is continue to promote free and freer thought for the sake of logic, clarification and the best outcomes..

OT: Stateside Horror: Frozen the Musical by PerVert Disney is going to being. Stefan Mol utterly demolished and put Frozen in its place upon its release. it was a awful movie with a TERRIBLE message to children. I hope BreitBart, Milo, Stefan and others expose the horrendous, untenable, ungodly messages in Disney's Trash Frozen! Down with Feminism and Support the Patriarchy!

Blogger LP9 Solidified in Gold! Rin Integra May 28, 2016 4:54 PM  

45: Edit: Begin.

Blogger VD May 28, 2016 4:56 PM  

On paper it just looks like you fare badly.

So you keep saying. Obviously, not everyone agrees with you. So, either you are missing something, or they are.

Anonymous DissidentRight May 28, 2016 4:57 PM  

Americans/Europeans are still the only people willing to officially admit that their ancestors may have done some bad things.

When mainstream Jewish icons are saying, "Yes, our people did (and are doing) bad things too, but..." then I will consider taking this nonsense seriously.

Blogger VD May 28, 2016 4:57 PM  

Serious question: are her words straightforward, or is she trying to give your position a platform? A few of her rants simply make your case, or lend themselves to an obvious simple retort.

They are straightforward. She means what she says. However, you must be mistaken, as I am reliably informed that it looks like I fared badly.

Anonymous Anonymous May 28, 2016 4:58 PM  

Great job Vox, the holocaust card has been played so often that the players quit playing. She doesn't understand that the other races just don't care and never will. Should show her the black Israelites video lol.

Blogger White Knight Leo #0368 May 28, 2016 4:58 PM  

Seems to end abruptly. Interesting talk though; you two seemed to be talking past each other on a lot of issues, like the Holocaust.

Anonymous Faceless May 28, 2016 4:59 PM  

I just read the first hit for "genocides of the British Empire". I definitely was not told about them in public school. How much pride should we have in forcing the British to just be a regular nation, province of the EU, than the empire the tortured and imprisoned Boer children? Or imprisoned, tortured, and sexually violated and humiliated Yemeni rebels? Or the rounding up and torturing of Cypriots and holding them without trial in internment camps? Or bombing the Kurd convoy of unarmed civilians? Or placing 1.5 million Kenyans in internment camps, telling them that labor made them free, with torture and random executions and really, really gruesome stuff?

History is full of everyone doing absolutely horrible things to other people. These things are forgotten quickly by most people - like you forget about the tragedy you heard last in the news from the neighboring town. I don't remember any of the above in my public school history classes.

Anonymous Anonymous May 28, 2016 5:00 PM  

Nailed it. She mentions not having the "honor of being Jewish". Quit worshipping these people.

Anonymous GamerGate now AltRight May 28, 2016 5:02 PM  

I'm sure you have a strategy with these debates but it looks like you are being walked all ovef by an idiot.

It looks like Vox is holding back a lot and letting her talk. He is on her site, exposing her audience to other views. Those who are willing to learn will look things up. Those who are not cannot be reached anyway. You cannot force red pills. And if you think there aren't enough red pills in for HER to swallow you better read it again and check for her amygdala level.

Anonymous quamuri May 28, 2016 5:02 PM  

I get that Vox is friends with Louise Mensch and doesn't turn on his friends, but it reads like Vox is talking to a horse. He reasons and reasons, and nothing that she says in reply shows any comprehension or recognition of Vox's points.

Blogger Cecil Henry May 28, 2016 5:03 PM  

Jews can be criticized like anyone else, and deserve it.

The intolerance, and endless ugliness, is in denying that reality.

Anonymous JRL May 28, 2016 5:05 PM  

Vox, you made some great points, but this seems not so much a debate as Mensch attacking you and you trying to explain in a non-rhetorical way...in which you are constantly interrupted both by yourself and Mensch (did someone say that in the previous thread...I just got deja vu).

Anyhow, changing a thought mid-sentence is jarring to read. It is probably less jarring in a real conversation.

She seems quite a bit more emotionally expressive and that carries a lot of rhetorical punch when speaking about genocides.

She also accuses you of things and puts you down which is clearly an attempt at the rhetorical high ground.








Blogger Mr.MantraMan May 28, 2016 5:09 PM  

She is for racial genocide I have no doubt about that. So what makes her a faultless God figure ? And I honestly care less about the Holocaust after reading that

Anonymous Harsh May 28, 2016 5:10 PM  

What a fucking annoying woman. You have the patience of a saint, Vox...

Anonymous VFM #6306 May 28, 2016 5:10 PM  

You need better informants. Louise seems affable but if that is the best case she can make, she is merely mourning the death of the vapor that was conservatism. It really is difficult to tell whether this was a regular debate or a WWF style "work" designed to get you "over." She went full Poffo on this one.

Whether it was intentional or not she really helped to elevate your ideas in contrast to the live expressions of the tired old Conventional Wisdom of the Spielberg Narrative.

Anonymous Farnswords May 28, 2016 5:11 PM  

Her part of the debate was very curious. She acknowledged that you are logical, precise, intelligent, etc., but she just couldn't control her impulse to call you racist. As swiftfox mentioned, she had odd spurts of sounding like an inquisitor. It seemed like the "racist" and "anti-semite" aspersions were a nervous tic, separate from any reasoned argument. I felt embarrassed for her.

The racism shrieks are always divorced from reason, but it is a particularly sharp distinction coming from someone who otherwise sounds reasonable.

Anonymous GamerGate now AltRight May 28, 2016 5:13 PM  

Vox, you made some great points, but this seems not so much a debate as Mensch attacking you and you trying to explain in a non-rhetorical way...in which you are constantly interrupted both by yourself and Mensch (did someone say that in the previous thread...I just got deja vu).

I'm reading it different. For me it is not a debate or discussion among equals. It looks similar to game to me (no, he is not trying to hit on her or land her), but what redpill calls amused mastery. He is not trying to convince her of anything. It's not important to do so. He is letting a woman be a woman and emotionally vomit all over the place while being completely unfazed by all of it and keeping control and composure.

Blogger Groot May 28, 2016 5:14 PM  

@34. Millenium:
"it looks like you are being walked all ovef by an idiot."

I am so glad he didn't heed your post hoc advice. She relies on hysterical outrage as a persuasive device. Vox simply remaining calm highlighted her inconsistent illogic. It's a funny case of a bemused tone transforming logic into rhetoric.

Anonymous VFM #6306 May 28, 2016 5:15 PM  

JRL, were you actually emotionally moved by Louise's rhetoric? In what way?

Anonymous Sam J. May 28, 2016 5:17 PM  

The Jews have been thrown out of every single country they've gone to in any numbers. Wonder why?

Anonymous Millenium May 28, 2016 5:21 PM  

An interesting illustration of what registers with midwits and what does not.

Who do you think reads Heat Street? If I am a midwit, as you say, then my reaction is going to be in line with the Heat Street readership.

So, either you are missing something, or they are

I think you, and a lot of ilk here, forget that very few are on your intellectual level and what is considered a win by your standards is not considered a win by the standards of those of the majority, especially those who read online tabloids.

I do not think you fared badly because your argument was inferior, quite the opposite. I think you fared badly because you let her cut you off, failed to nail her and in the end she had more words. In the era of reddit and tl:dr that counts as a win for her because most of the audience need things spelled out explicitly.

Were this a debate with Steve Keen I would hold the opposite view because I expect the audience to be smart enough to see through the posturing and lack of argument.

Blogger Lazarus May 28, 2016 5:24 PM  

How could Ms. Mensch not understand the use of the term cuckservative? Seems pretty straightforward.

Plus, she seems to think of Vox as an alpha. What's up with that?

Blogger Achilles May 28, 2016 5:27 PM  

Regarding the point about as more time passes the less people care about the Holocaust I am reminded of the scene in Breaking Bad where Walter White addresses the school after an airplane wreck. His whole speech is about how there have been worse crashes. People forget. People move on. Vox is correct that too much time has past to hold one atrocity above all others.

As much as these memes and lack of Holocaust shame are a response to the Left's anti-semitism attacks I also think it's also a direct response to people right of center like Shapiro or Mensch who seem to be hung up on their Jewish identity. For too long we've seen them and the politicians they support focused on, as Ann Coulter pointed out, a minority. We don't like the undue influence. We don't like the hypocrisy and double-dealing. We don't like the lack of loyalty. I think the memes are as much to oust Jewish cucks from the movement as much as it is to disarm the Left. Essentially the alt-right is attempting to differentiate between Jewish tribalists and American tribalists who happened to be Jews.

These debates have been okay. Mensch seems too rambling and emotional to be coherent. I find myself barely resisting the urge to skip her portion of the transcript. I know it will be inane. I think Vox acquitted himself quite well. Besides, he doesn't need to slip the knife in. Isn't that what his minions are for?

Blogger ray May 28, 2016 5:29 PM  

The It's The Joos rap has exploded on the net the past decade. Everything right on time! lol

Hard to find a 'right-wing' comment section on the net whose threads aren't stuffed with The Evil Joos proclamations. And that's strange, given that support for the 'Palestinians' and hatred of the Jewish State is a fundamental platform of the modern LEFT. As usual, the Right absorbs the anti-Semitic elements of the Left, who then pretend the death of the West is down to, well we all know who. And that this now constitutes 'conservatism'. :O)

The Joo Game is kinda like, Building The Wall is all that matters! Same level of demagoguery, very LePenish. Oh no wait, Papa Pen and the Grrls announced they'd given the Jooing up. :O) Well the grrlls announced it, anyways. And we know by now that females never deceive.

The false Jews of the modern Left have played a central role in the cucking and destruction of the Christian patriarchy, across the West but particularly in America -- what remnants existed of American patriarachy, anyway, by the late Fifties. This allowed the Perennial Hamans to resume outraged victim facepaint, and ramp-up the same old game.

Scripture attests that God LOVES the name of Israel, and that the nations will come to the 'Jews' in Christ's Kingdom for instruction and comfort.


"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

"But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."


Nothing POLITICAL there, take note.

So 'Christians' who disobey and instead join the popular hate-a-thon are in rebellion against God; they are false Christians just as most modern Jews are false Hebrews. For indeed, modern Judaism is vastly corrupt, having been corroded not only by demonic fake-Jews like Steinem and Dworkin, but also by embrace of stoopid kabbalah, by self-serving rabbinism, and by desire to be seen as a modernist culture, complete with homos, feminism, and material glut. Everything except dependence upon the Lord.

King Jeshua spoke darkly -- twice -- concerning the 'synagogue of satan' in our very times, and so I'm not even vaguely surpised to find Judaism and the Hebrews deeply infiltrated and compromised. That's going to get cleaned-up, like many other modern-day deceptions and horrors. But it's not going to get cleaned-up by commie kabbalists in Hollywood, nor by righty operatives using Joo Hate as cover for their own personal political/power objectives. I can see they're gonna try tho! as ever. So good luck making war on God.

Blogger Sheila4g May 28, 2016 5:30 PM  

I had never heard of her before your debates with her, and knowing nothing else about her now, I dislike her more with each debate. Hysterically emotional, constantly interrupting, counter-factual, exaggerating, and demanding.

My major quibble with your answers was your apparent emphasis (or it could have been more hers) that only as America becomes less White, as well as with the passage of time, it cares less about the putative holocaust. White Americans care less, as well, not merely because it's now ancient history but because of its constant exaggeration and over emphasis. Even my W. Va. baptist friend doesn't sperg as much on "the greatest tragedy in history." Even she admits that other than 144,000, the rest will reap what they've sown.

Anonymous Scintan May 28, 2016 5:32 PM  

I find it notable that she can't get off the rhetorical, and that she can't get beyond the name calling.

She's not really debating. She's browbeating and othering, which is the primary SJW attack, and she either doesn't see it, or she doesn't care that she's doing it.

Even worse is the fact that she's doing it an an attempt to divide and conquer, and doing a shitty job of it.

Blogger LP9 Solidified in Gold! Rin Integra May 28, 2016 5:36 PM  

Serious OT banker news, does anyone recall the Wanta issue? At 1170 east coast 1am is this, finally its covered.

Tonight's Show, Saturday, May 28

Pres. Reagan's secret agent, Lee Wanta , masterminded a creative way to financially take down the economy of the Soviet Union. He joins Richard Syrett to discuss, along with Lon Gibby (director of a documentary about Wanta), his claim that he amassed trillions of dollars that were designated to go back to the American people but in his effort to carry out his mandate, he was imprisoned, and the funds were stolen or converted illegally into the Federal Reserve. First hour guest, security consultant and researcher Colin Hall details his investigation into two unusual car accidents in England and France that seemed to have paranormal elements.

Anonymous Spartacus xxxxx May 28, 2016 5:38 PM  

RobertT wrote:" Vox, Vox, this was Ann Coulter who brought it up herself, who made the remark, herself. Really, as an “Ayn Randian radical,” don’t you recognize this is entirely Ann Coulter’s own fault? She brought it up, nobody else did, .."

The comment ... How many goddamn Jews do they think there are in America?

She thinks it's completely inappropriate to talk about the Jews at all? What's the difference between this attitude and Black Lives Matter?




Coulter wasn't even talking about all Jews in America.

Q: How many goddamn Jews do they think there are in America?

A: A number equal to, or more likely less than, all Jews in America.

So hey, don't take it personally...

Anonymous Faceless May 28, 2016 5:39 PM  

@65 ray

You're on a site where the dominant position is a simple position:

A nation is entitled to exist as long as it can assert its right to exist.
Israel is a nation.
Therefore, Israel has a right to exist as long as it can assert its right to exist.

As a corollary to this, you're on a site where the dominant position is:

Dependency is weakness; being able to stand alone is strength.
The US has played the game of making Israel weak, and we should wish all nations be strong.
Therefore, we would like to see an independent Israel, not an American vassal state.

All of this means - I have no idea where you get the idea that "Israel for the Israelis, Japan for the Japanese, France for the French, America for the Americans" is some crazy Jew-hatred, but, well, you may continue to entertain.

As Milo said, the kids have found a trigger that drives certain people nuts; they are going to do it, because that's what kids do. Ann Coulter's original remarks were on the occasion of an American presidential debate where GOP stooge after stooge stood up and said he would make his foreign policy decisions by first asking what was right for the state of Israel. Since we know this is a lie, it's pandering to a strongly-Democrat and ever-shrinking sliver of the voting base....but maybe it works for people like you who have the one true eschatology.

Blogger praetorian May 28, 2016 5:40 PM  

anti semitic is a codeword for being right

Anonymous Cochise May 28, 2016 5:42 PM  

Vox, do you really adhere to the official narrative of "The Holocaust," as you implied in the transcript of the debate?

I'm certainly no expert on WWII, but the more information I'm exposed to the more the official account appears to be full of gigantic holes. I ask because I respect your intellect and your fearlessness in holding views regardless of their unpopularity.

Anonymous Brick Hardslab May 28, 2016 5:47 PM  

VD Do you get a say in how it is written or edited?

Anonymous VFM #6306 May 28, 2016 5:49 PM  

And Cathy Young is not GamerGate. She reported relatively fairly on them although if I recall, dismissed "ethics in journalism" as too vague.

Sympathy with Gamergate isn't the same thing as being gamergate.

Anonymous Hmmm May 28, 2016 5:51 PM  

I'm 47. The Holocaust is a point in history. It is not nor has it ever been the pinnacle of human evil. After a life time of being brow beaten by the media and American jews I can honestly say I've gone from caring to indifferent to hostile at the messengers.

Blogger Lucas May 28, 2016 5:52 PM  

Louise made the classical female mistakes.

Anonymous VFM #6306 May 28, 2016 5:52 PM  

Cochise, who really cares about the Holocaust? It was 70 years ago. It is the current year.

Blogger praetorian May 28, 2016 5:52 PM  

This woman literally can't even.

Have her read The Culture of Critique, Vox. If she even has a sliver of open mindedness (and I've seen no evidence of it thus far, she just bull rushes the whole time with rhetoric, hysterics and feels) she will at least be forced to admit that there is something to jewish clannishness and in-group preferences.

Which would be fucking fine, since it is the natural way of things, if they weren't using their dominance of the media, political and financial systems to cast any white who notices this fact into the darkness in our own countries.

Wassup w/ that?

Anonymous stress management May 28, 2016 5:55 PM  

LM's argument boils down, per Steve Sailer, to a rhetorical war on noticing Jews and their influence.

The fact that she defends name-changing cosmopolitan immigrant 'Cathy Young' as a better American than native-born patriot Ann Coulter, based PURELY on Coulter's criticism of Jewish influence, says it all.

Also, Mensch married into the tribe, so her claim to neutrality despite the last name isn't exactly cricket.






Blogger Lazarus May 28, 2016 5:58 PM  

Cochise wrote:Vox, do you really adhere to the official narrative of "The Holocaust," as you implied in the transcript of the debate?

Vox lives in Italy, and:



Italy gets new law punishing Holocaust denial

Mon, 19 Oct 2015

By a large majority, the Italian Chamber of Deputies has adopted legislation that criminalizes the denial of the Shoah. 340 deputies voted in favor, one against and 107 abstained.

In future, people who promote, incite or commit acts of racial discrimination based in part or entirely on the denial of the Holocaust can be punished with prison sentences of up to five years.



Know what I'm sayin'?

Blogger VD May 28, 2016 5:59 PM  

Vox, do you really adhere to the official narrative of "The Holocaust," as you implied in the transcript of the debate?

I don't even know what the official narrative of the Holocause is anymore. But I don't question that the National Socialists concocted the Einlosung in late 1941 once they realized they were not going to be able to hold onto Eastern Europe.

There is no question that it happened. That's clear from the Nazi documents alone.

Blogger FALPhil May 28, 2016 6:00 PM  

I read the whole thing. I just have one question: What's wrong with using the word, "Negro"?

Anonymous #8601 Jean Valjean May 28, 2016 6:05 PM  

If VD's strategy was to be calm and reasonable in order to highlight that his opponent was emotional and annoying, I'd say it was a roaring success.

Anonymous Scintan May 28, 2016 6:05 PM  

FALPhil wrote:I read the whole thing. I just have one question: What's wrong with using the word, "Negro"?


Louise doesn't like it, therefore it's evil.

Anonymous Jack Amok May 28, 2016 6:09 PM  

I don't hate jews, but I'm damned tired of talking about them and their problems. Lots of people in the world have problems today, take a number if you want me to care about yours.

Blogger bob k. mando May 28, 2016 6:12 PM  

Louise Mensch: Vox, Vox, this was Ann Coulter who brought it up herself,
Vox Day: Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t she discussing the fact that the candidates were discussing Israel, or Jews or something like that?



it was far worse than that. Ann was complaining that the candidates kept interjecting how much they "love Israel" into the middle of questions that had nothing to do with Israel or Jewry.

but, you know, expecting a narcissistic asshole to not be a narcissistic asshole is a losing proposition.

and there are a LOT of Jews who seem to be disposed that way. perhaps genetically.



the upshot of all this?

don't expect a homo-fag nigger-jew to not be a narcissistic asshole.

Rabbi B? not a homo-fag nigger-jew.

Blogger Jack Ward May 28, 2016 6:14 PM  

Bet against Vox losing a given debate? That bet better be discretionary money and not needed for the various monthly payments.

Anonymous Camilla Cameo May 28, 2016 6:15 PM  

She is getting more unpleasant with each of these. Everything @66 Sheila said.

Blogger Billy May 28, 2016 6:16 PM  

That bitch is proud of herself.

Blogger praetorian May 28, 2016 6:17 PM  

Her hysterics about the holocaust are just precious. It's worse than far more brutal slaughters because THERE WAS PHOTOGRAPHIC EVIDENCE.

Sorry, Ukrainians, shoulda had cameras, and maybe Mrs. Mench would care.

Anonymous Cochise May 28, 2016 6:24 PM  

Lazarus wrote:

"Vox lives in Italy, and:



Italy gets new law punishing Holocaust denial

Mon, 19 Oct 2015

By a large majority, the Italian Chamber of Deputies has adopted legislation that criminalizes the denial of the Shoah. 340 deputies voted in favor, one against and 107 abstained.

In future, people who promote, incite or commit acts of racial discrimination based in part or entirely on the denial of the Holocaust can be punished with prison sentences of up to five years.


Know what I'm sayin'?"


Good point. Sometimes I forget this is an international blog while I remain in the U.S. and enjoy (for now!) the protection of the First Amendment.

VD, to whatever respect you may privately disagree with the official account, I respect that you are not fully at liberty to disclose it.

Blogger Weouro May 28, 2016 6:24 PM  

I can confirm that I don't care. I gave up on reading this debate all the way because the topic is so boring. "Resolved: You're ANTI!!! Let me count the ways." "No, that's ridiculous." "This is ANTI behavior." "No, that's ridiculous."

Blogger rcocean May 28, 2016 6:26 PM  

I just skipped and read VD's reposes. Evidently, to be indifferent to Jews and treat them like everyone else is to Hate them. Because the only people who don't Love Jews are Anti-Semites.

I guess.

Blogger rcocean May 28, 2016 6:27 PM  

BTW, once you realize that many Jews in the past were viewing things from a prism of "What's good for the Jews" then a lot of History makes more sense.

Blogger praetorian May 28, 2016 6:29 PM  

I am reliably informed that it looks like I fared badly.

I think she is beating you out for a sufficiently stupid audience, just because she never admits you have a point and you never talk her into a corner. She's relentless with the emotional rhetoric and all over the place, and you don't call her out on her hysterics and ad hominem's.

If someone literally can't, they'll see her literally not evening, and literally won't.

Anonymous #8601 Jean Valjean May 28, 2016 6:29 PM  

Louise is a Point and Shrieker.

Anonymous Random American May 28, 2016 6:45 PM  

Something Vox said in a post a few days ago gave me a new perspective on this issue. "Holocaust denial" may be illegal. Now, this is ridiculous, granted, because even holocaust-profiteers admit that the numbers and various testimonies accepted have changed over the years. Was it 1.2 or 4 million at Auschwitz? Jew soap? Lampshades? Nazis playing football with dead Jew babies?
It's already ridiculous to make a changing target be a mandatory belief.

But as Vox pointed out, you can't really make it illegal to not give a shit. I don't give a shit. Plenty of people (including my own distant English/Irish/Native American ancestors) have been victims of genocide, or enslaved, persecuted, driven out, or made into serfs by the powerful. And us modern Euro-Americans are currently being dispossessed in favor of people who have no goodwill toward us.

What happened to the wandering Jews 70+ years ago was nothing at all special historically, and their own well-documented clannish, nepotistic, and controlling behavior makes grievance and conflict almost unavoidable with their host nations. They could have blended in, but didn't. They could have left, but didn't.

If the existence of a well-defended, well-funded Jewish ethno-state can't solve the problem of "anti-semitism" even now, maybe Jews should look to their own group and individual behavior for answers.


I had my fill of standard American "judeo-christian" propaganda growing up, and I simply don't give a shit about it anymore. I respect and even admire the Jewish sense of identity, and I actually wish modern Europeans and "whites" would learn a thing or two about group solidarity from Jews, but they no longer get any special sympathy from me, especially if it comes at cost to my own group/race/country/family.

Screw it. Done. Don't care, no more than I care about millions of fake refugee Muslims, invading welfare-Africans, or economic tourist Hispanics. Actually, less than I care about Hispanics, as I am blood with a few of them.

Anonymous Cochise May 28, 2016 6:46 PM  

VD, I think the reason so many think you fared badly is because she appears to have you on the defensive the entire time, largely over whether or to what degree you agree with or sanction "racism" or "anti-semtism" from fellow alt-righters. That was unfortunately my take as well.

Anonymous Partyboob May 28, 2016 6:48 PM  

Of all the people you've debated-- at least the ones I'm aware of-- Louise Mensch is the most uninformed, least intelligent, least capable debate partner yet. Your patience in not verbally smacking her upside her dim-witted head is impressive.

Anonymous JRL May 28, 2016 6:53 PM  

were you actually emotionally moved by Louise's rhetoric? In what way?

She annoys me...but I'm just mid-witted enough to see that she is scoring rhetorically.

She's not really debating. She's browbeating and othering...

Yep.

Blogger Salt May 28, 2016 6:53 PM  

VD wrote:That's clear from the Nazi documents alone.

A copy of the minutes, the transcript of the Wansee meeting, survived. That was the meeting chaired by Hydrich to discuss measures including that of the Jewish question.

Anonymous Ain May 28, 2016 6:54 PM  

Louise Mensch: "That’s an argument for better education. I think they know about the Germans, it’s an argument for better education."

If they never heard about it in the home, the family by definition doesn't care.

Blogger icr May 28, 2016 6:59 PM  

Hollywood has been churning out an endless stream of Hate Whitey propaganda since about 1967. They must be responsible for many thousand of deaths, no?

Anonymous VFM #6306 May 28, 2016 6:59 PM  

"Appear," "seem," "looks like."

Three phrases that tend to expose the flaws of any case.

Anonymous JI May 28, 2016 7:00 PM  

Mensch said: "He used the term Negroes. This is a guy that you re-tweet."

My God, is the PC so deeply embedded that "Negro" is not acceptable to this woman? That is the correct name of a race, like Caucasian. It was not only common parlance when I was a kid, it was considered respectful and proper. What the heck is wrong with her? I think she's a nut.

Anonymous VFM #6306 May 28, 2016 7:03 PM  

JRL, no, you don't know what rhetoric is. It isn't something you "see" it is something you feel if it is effective.

If Louise didn't make you feel personally shameful, the rhetoric failed spectacularly, because that was its objective:

To make a fence sitter like JRL feel bad enough about himself to accept her Narrative.

Anonymous BGKB May 28, 2016 7:09 PM  

So you don’t care that the left was correct about your racism and sexism?

I have been called a bigot for not wanting to have sex with a guy I knew was HIV+, that is where the goalposts will be moving to next. Of course he didn't know my views on realism.

The US has played the game of making Israel weak, and we should wish all nations be strong.

How is giving Israel $8billion a year in US taxpayer money, admittedly mostly going to a few billionaires with some coming back to the US as bribes, making Israel weak?

The Jews have been thrown out of every single country they've gone to in any numbers. Wonder why?

If I was kicked out of 100+ bars I might start to think it had something to do with me, but I have only been banned from one for stopping their best customer, Grandpa Moses, from taking my roofied friend home. The funny part was they said it was for getting the cops involved (the victim, Grandpa Moses roofier, & the guy that videoed the encounter where not banned) and I asked them to leave a voicemail message to that effect with me or call the cops.

Vox, do you really adhere to the official narrative of "The Holocaust," as you implied in the transcript of the debate?

Even I wouldn't publicly identifiably outright question the turning jews into lampshades as I wish to visit European nations after the nigapocalypse is over.

don't expect a homo-fag nigger-jew to not be a narcissistic asshole. Same goes for homo-fag-jews

They could have blended in, but didn't

Hanukkah celebrates the killing off of Greek jews that assimilated.

Anonymous Philalethes May 28, 2016 7:13 PM  

Like others here, the more I see of this woman, the less I like her. Not that I ever did in the first place. I'm afraid I would not have the patience to "debate" her, for she is a prime example of why I'm coming to consider talking with most women about anything of substance a waste of time. It's all just gush, outpourings of feelings masquerading as thought.

Unfortunately, it seems that most women who've been blessed (?) with a modicum of intelligence, i.e. enough to actually use reason to figure things out, instead use that gift only to superpower the hamster and add more punch to what are, if examined, merely emotional outpourings regarding by whatever triggering "facts" have lodged in their minds – e.g. *T*H*E*H*O*L*O*C*A*U*S*T*, the Greatest Crime of Human History, at mention of which all must pause whatever they were doing, tug at forelocks and shed a sympathetic tear for those poor, poor people who've been so unjustly singled out for persecution all over the world for as long as anybody can remember – while everybody else, of course, has been having just a great old time.

Back in the late 90s I happened to mention in the hearing of a friend, an archetypal middle-aged sincerely left-liberal female (she was among the "human shields" who went to Iraq) that I was listening to Rush Limbaugh on the radio. (I was not a "ditto-head", but found him sometimes a refreshing alternative to all the lies from most of the media.) She was shocked. "I'm ashamed of you," she cried, "I think..." I forget what it was she thought, but what I thought (but didn't say) was, "No, A--, you don't think: you emote, and call it thinking."

Blogger Mastermind May 28, 2016 7:24 PM  

Vox lost this one too. I'd say it went about 70/30 in Mensch's favor. He did recover a bit near the end but she got in point after point and Vox had trouble finding his footing for most of the discussion.

Blogger Lazarus May 28, 2016 7:31 PM  

Mastermind wrote:Vox lost this one too. I'd say it went about 70/30 in Mensch's favor. He did recover a bit near the end but she got in point after point and Vox had trouble finding his footing for most of the discussion.

Don't be silly.

Anonymous Eric the Red May 28, 2016 7:32 PM  

VD, what's the problem? You get tongue-tied and are unable to respond coherently to this woman, while with other interviewees you are effective. For example, the issue of Ann Coulter is a no-brainer... the candidates were indeed discussing US policy on Israel, and essentially pandering to it as usual. You were correct to say that Coulter expressed herself with exasperation, but you did not clearly say that there is a clear distinction between a US policy that does not place Israel on a pedestal versus hating Jews. Was that really so hard to think of during the interview? Sorry, but your performance during the previous interview was less than stellar, and this one was even worse. Next time don't do this venue again, or at least change it in your favor somehow.

Anonymous Philalethes May 28, 2016 7:33 PM  

I wrote at some length in a previous thread regarding this woman of my own history with The Jews, so I won't repeat it here. It is getting to be somewhat amazing to me, though, how none of these people seem to have noticed that the rest of us are really getting sick and tired of their endless hypocritical masochistic narcissism.

I was actually surprised to learn, sometime between then and now, that Louise Mensch is not actually Jewish herself – i.e. not born of a Jewish mother, though I don't know if she has formally converted after marrying a Jew. I guess she's a Wannabe Jew, which would partially explain why she's so over the top with all the Jewish tropes. And I am reminded again of Otto Weininger's analysis of the fundamental femaleness of the Jewish character.

Recently I read in a novel of the protagonist's incidental visit to the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC, which he found very moving. Of course, I knew said museum was there, but had never thought much about it. But now I thought, What? Why in Washington? What the hell did the so-called Holocaust have to do with Washington, or America? Did it happen here? No. Did Americans have anything to do with it? No. So why must this monument take up space in our capital city? Why is it any of our business? Why must we forever pay for this so-called Crime which we did not commit?

Blogger Rusty Fife May 28, 2016 7:47 PM  

Philalethes wrote:Of course, I knew said museum was there, but had never thought much about it. But now I thought, What? Why in Washington? What the hell did the so-called Holocaust have to do with Washington, or America? Did it happen here? No. Did Americans have anything to do with it? No. So why must this monument take up space in our capital city? Why is it any of our business? Why must we forever pay for this so-called Crime which we did not commit?

Perhaps it's a place holder for when the KKK and neo-NAZIs take over, like has been reported by the SPLC as immanent for decades, then they will update the exhibits.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash May 28, 2016 7:48 PM  

If that was a debate, I'm a penguin. She spewed her outrage and emotions all over, listened not at all, never actually responded to anything VD said, was at all times dishonest and outraged.

@VD I would suggest insisting on your right to finish your statements. Letting her run over you looks weak.

Anonymous Ezekiel Cassandros May 28, 2016 7:49 PM  

Philalethes wrote:What the hell did the so-called Holocaust have to do with Washington, or America? Did it happen here? No. Did Americans have anything to do with it? No. So why must this monument take up space in our capital city? Why is it any of our business? Why must we forever pay for this so-called Crime which we did not commit?

So they can use it as a rhetorical weapon to control us. That's part of how they got us into the first Gulf War: by spreading a ridiculous fake story of Iraqis dumping babies onto the floor to die, and telling us that not intervening would be just like when we hesitated stopping the Holocaust.

Same reason they're telling Germans that they should accept Germans becoming a minority in Germany, because Nazis.

Guilt and restitution have nothing to do with it. It is a WEAPON and nothing more.

Anonymous Stickwick May 28, 2016 7:50 PM  

Why, why would you rebel against being taught about one of history’s most appalling massacres, which happened in the modern age and for which rarely therefore, as opposed to in historic massacres, we have photographic evidence?

This really pisses me off. So, Vox talks to a bunch of young people and finds out that they really don't care about the Holocaust, and Mensch is incensed. I bet if he'd asked those same kids about Stalin's purges or the killing fields in Cambodia, they'd go, "Huh?"

My Ukrainian great-grandparents barely escaped Stalin's purges by emigrating to Canada. Millions of other Ukrainians were not so lucky. Reasonable estimates place the death toll much higher than that of the Holocaust, and in the worst possible way -- slowly starved to death. How many times does anyone hear about this? When does it EVER come up in conversation or in debates or in the media the way the Holocaust does? NEVER. Now, it's entirely reasonable that this is the case, because it was several decades ago, and besides serving as an historical object lesson in the dangers of totalitarianism, it simply isn't relevant to anything. And it certainly doesn't elevate Ukrainians to any special victim class.

But if what matters is how long ago it happened, then what about the millions killed by Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge? That was a lot more recent than the Holocaust or Stalin, there is plenty of photographic evidence and living personal testimony, and yet how many young people are even aware that it happened in their parents' lifetime, let alone care? I've asked people ten years younger than me, and none of them even knew what I was talking about. Does that represent some kind of a cultural obscenity or does it just reflect the fact that it is so far removed from young people's experience that they just don't care?

Anonymous Random American May 28, 2016 7:52 PM  

Good points about Coulter, what she said was in no way anti-semitic, no more than if our entire foreign policy was wrapped around Samoa and someone questioned it.

But as far as "win or lose", the only way Mensch "won" anything, was if you accept her many unspoken premises. She assumes that rhetoric is always indicative of reality, that "racism" of whites really is a big problem in America, that "anti-semitism" is a big problem. But it's pretty clear to a growing number of people that whites are by far the most discriminated-against group, both by other groups and our own government, and can't even mention it without being attacked.

You pretty much have to be a hypersensitive Jew or brainwashed liberal to accept any of her bullshit on its own terms, so I see no victory for her here, except among those who were never going to see it otherwise.

That said, Vox could have turned up the heat a bit, sure.

Anonymous Random American May 28, 2016 7:55 PM  

And, seriously...LOL at her talking about how all these millions of immigrants are going to become "real Americans" and learn to worship the Jew. I think Vox could have exploded that myth a bit better, but it's pretty obvious BS.

Sorry, lady, even you know that isn't true. It's just another attempt to guilt American whites into doing Jew's work for them, to their own detriment. Those days are going, going....

Anonymous Philalethes May 28, 2016 8:07 PM  

@114. Ezekiel Cassandros

So they can use it as a rhetorical weapon to control us. Agreed.

That's part of how they got us into the first Gulf War: by spreading a ridiculous fake story of Iraqis dumping babies onto the floor to die....

Ron Paul tells the story (so I recall anyway; if I have it wrong it's my error) of how he came to see the real horror of abortion, when as a young medical student he assisted with a delivery, then watched the doctor/nurse or somebody take the baby into another room, put em head down in a bucket and leave em to die – because the mother didn't want em. Pot, meet kettle.

Blogger Elder Son May 28, 2016 8:10 PM  

“How many goddamn Jews does he think there are in America!”

That's it huh? That gets them all panty bunched?

And seriously, I am sick of hearing about the holocaust. And I don't give a FUCK about the holocaust. I do care about the COMING holocaust right here in America.

And, if you want to be a JEW, go be a JEW in Israel. A Mexican in Mexico. A African in Africa. Etc.

Anonymous Philalethes May 28, 2016 8:12 PM  

...the heroism of the greatest generation of Americans, who along with the British, saved the world in World Wars One and Two, and particularly in World War Two from the intense evil of the Nazis. If you think that I cannot take pride, for example because I was born in 1971, take great pride in knowing the fact that both my grandfather’s served and my maternal grandfather was a gunner on a naval ship. It gives me immense pride.

What a load of crap. I was born during the Second Great War, so it was my father, not my grandfather, who "saved the world" as a US Navy fighter-bomber pilot. And you know what? I'm not the least bit "proud" about that – and neither was he. Unfortunately, I never had the chance to talk with him about it, as we were only just getting to be friends before he died suddenly in 1974; but I did know that what he felt about that war, and his part in it, was bitterness and sorrow. He was a smart man; he knew he was being lied to even as he did the job he was assigned (and very well, I'm sure, and nearly didn't survive several times) – but sadly he didn't live long enough for me to be able to tell him what I began to learn some 20 years after his death, about how thoroughly and egregiously he (and all Americans) had been lied to. Charles Lindbergh was right, may he rest in peace.

So anyway, (1) I am not a member of those recent generations Vox talks about, for whom those events are far in an unknown past – I was thoroughly brought up to believe in and care about them, and did, but I no longer do, having learned that the truth was vastly different than what I was taught. And (2) neither am I one of the Hispanic, Asian, African or other groups Vox talks about – and no, Louise, they are not Americans, they are Hispanics, Asians, Africans, et al. – who simply can't be expected to care about events that have no connection to their lives or history; I am a "pure blood" Anglo American whose ancestors founded this country, and whose family and national history have been very much affected by the clever machinations of the Chosen People – and I am heartily sick of them.

I wish they would just go home (now that we've bought it for them), and take their "Holocaust Museum" and their endless narcissistic superiority/victim complex with them. From the slave trade to the fact that even Donald Trump had to make the obligatory pilgrimage and bend the knee to AIPAC, they've done little but harm to this country. It is worth noting that in the late 19th century, Jews were better off in Germany than anywhere else in Europe – yet they turned on and savaged the very nation that had generously given them refuge. A consistent pattern, it seems.

Anonymous Bob May 28, 2016 8:14 PM  

Based on a few quick Google results, there are about 6 million Jews in the United States as of 2014 (about 2% of pop). To put that in perspective with 2010 census data:

- 5 million Native Americans (single or mixed race)
- 6 million Jews
- 9 million self-identifying LGB (estimated)
- 15 million Asian
- 40 million Black (single or mixed race)
- 51 million Hispanic or Latino (single or mixed race)
- 224 million White (single or mixed race)
- 308 million reported US citizens

Interesting how such small percentages of our population attract so much attention.

Blogger bob k. mando May 28, 2016 8:18 PM  

121. Bob May 28, 2016 8:14 PM
are about 6 million Jews in the United States as of 2014



how convenient.

Blogger praetorian May 28, 2016 8:18 PM  

6 million jews, you say? 6 million?

[stares into distance]

OpenID luciussomesuch May 28, 2016 8:44 PM  

Vox writes: "But I don't question that the National Socialists concocted the Einlosung in late 1941 once they realized they were not going to be able to hold onto Eastern Europe."

--Good Lord, Vox! Late 1941 was Operation Typhon, late 1941 Stalin declared Moscow to be under a state of siege. How on earth could the Nazis have predicted in late 1941 that they wouldn't hold on to Eastern Europe? That doesn't even make any . . . .

Oh.

Anonymous Bob May 28, 2016 8:45 PM  

@122 and @123

Interesting, no? When they talk about the 6 million Jew holocaust, they're talking about all the Jews in the US.

Take that as you will.

OpenID luciussomesuch May 28, 2016 8:47 PM  

And it was f**king Jews! f**king f**king f**king!!!

Anonymous mature craig May 28, 2016 8:49 PM  

And again don't want to step on anyone's toes but BKGB you absolutely disgust me. U abuse free speech. U make me want to join the ADL

Anonymous Cochise May 28, 2016 8:49 PM  

Salt wrote:

"A copy of the minutes, the transcript of the Wansee meeting, survived. That was the meeting chaired by Hydrich to discuss measures including that of the Jewish question."


Sure, but what do those alleged "minutes" actually state, as opposed to the darkest spin the Holocaustianity propagandists attach to them?

OpenID lelaebuis May 28, 2016 8:51 PM  

>You are far to nice to and let her rant on. I feel you are losing these debates from a lack of fire.

Vox didn't lose. Good job, there.

By the way, the figures on Jewish population in the US amount to about 2.2%. I would have thought it was at least 5%. You do have to consider that the requirements to be Jewish are fairly strict. There are likely a lot of people out there carrying Jewish DNA that don't qualify under the strict definition.

Blogger Noah B May 28, 2016 8:59 PM  

When Juan wades across the Rio Grande on his journey to the land of eternal gibs, at what point does the magic dirt kick in and make him start caring deeply about the Holocaust?

OpenID lelaebuis May 28, 2016 9:09 PM  

>He did recover a bit near the end but she got in point after point and Vox had trouble finding his footing for most of the discussion.

You're right that Vox did get stronger after he heard the drift of her arguments. If there are further debates, it might be useful to consider those early questions and have a stronger response ready if she repeats them in different context.

As far as the interrupting goes: This now seems to be a standard technique to overrun the opposition. Typical responses are a) to point this out by asking the other person to wait while you finish your point or b) to continue talking despite the interruption.

Blogger Noah B May 28, 2016 9:12 PM  

The ending seems a bit abrupt. Did she have a stroke?

Blogger Lazarus May 28, 2016 9:12 PM  

Philalethes wrote:What a load of crap. I was born during the Second Great War, so it was my father, not my grandfather, who "saved the world" as a US Navy fighter-bomber pilot. And you know what? I'm not the least bit "proud" about that – and neither was he

My father was a bomber pilot in the RCAF. Probably had similar experiences. Put through social and legal pressure to sign up, did not see the urgent need to proceed to a foreign war, scoffed at the propaganda, etc., and did not see the Germans as some kind of scourge on mankind, but victims of the system of things as they were.

But once the shooting started, it got more personal, and yet there still was a professional understanding involved.

The German who shot him down actually wrote about the vagaries of war that night in his memoirs. My father survived, lived through prison camp, and did not tell his story til one night in the late 70's.

I am sorry you did not get to hear your father's story, but I am sure it would be somewhat similar.

Blogger bob k. mando May 28, 2016 9:17 PM  

4. Crude May 28, 2016 3:46 PM
It's bullshit there, and it's bullshit here.



once you understand that by "education" they mean brainwashing it all makes sense.

Blogger Noah B May 28, 2016 9:19 PM  

Reasonable estimates place the death toll much higher than that of the Holocaust, and in the worst possible way -- slowly starved to death. How many times does anyone hear about this? When does it EVER come up in conversation or in debates or in the media the way the Holocaust does?

When one learns who was behind the Holodomor, it sheds some light on Germany's actions. War is hell.

Blogger icr May 28, 2016 9:19 PM  

"-Good Lord, Vox! Late 1941 was Operation Typhon, late 1941 Stalin declared Moscow to be under a state of siege. How on earth could the Nazis have predicted in late 1941 that they wouldn't hold on to Eastern Europe? That doesn't even make any . . . .

Oh."

When the US entered the war. But why did Germany declare war on the US? Sure FDR kept trying to goad into it, but why not try to stave it off as long as possible? It could be they figured the odds became longer the longer they waited and if they, together with the Japanese, had a lucky streak they might get a negotiated peace.

Anonymous BGKB May 28, 2016 9:28 PM  

BKGB you absolutely disgust me. U abuse free speech. U make me want to join the ADL

Say high to my exes for me. The ADL was formed after a jew named Leo Frank was lynched for raping a 13yo goyim girl to death.

"The Jewish Big Money in New York realized their heavy-handed tactics of bribery and overt lies had botched and thus failed to prevent the rescue of Leo Frank, the head of B’nai B’rith in Atlanta, Georgia. The top New York Jews grasped that they needed henceforth a much more sophisticated legal and PR operation so that AT LEAST FUTURE GUILTY JEWS COULD ESCAPE JUSTICE. And this was the ADL, founded in October 1913, A DIRECT RESULT OF THE MARY PHAGAN-LEO FRANK CASE!"

Actually mature craig is more bothered by me than the fact the boston marathon moslems had 3 gay jew next door neighbors that got beheaded on the 10th anniversary of 911, but PC cops couldn't profile.

Tell me mature craig who is worse the guy who says "I wish Israel well but don't think it needs $8billion a year from the US taxpayer" or the moslem that says "the holocause didn't happen but should have"?

Blogger praetorian May 28, 2016 9:28 PM  

U make me want to join the ADL

Read The Culture of Critique.

Blogger Michael Maier May 28, 2016 9:29 PM  

Philalethes wrote:... I am a "pure blood" Anglo American whose ancestors founded this country, and whose family and national history have been very much affected by the clever machinations of the Chosen People – and I am heartily sick of them.

I wish they would just go home (now that we've bought it for them), and take their "Holocaust Museum" and their endless narcissistic superiority/victim complex with them. From the slave trade to the fact that even Donald Trump had to make the obligatory pilgrimage and bend the knee to AIPAC, they've done little but harm to this country. It is worth noting that in the late 19th century, Jews were better off in Germany than anywhere else in Europe – yet they turned on and savaged the very nation that had generously given them refuge. A consistent pattern, it seems.

Well said.

Blogger Lazarus May 28, 2016 9:33 PM  

Eric the Red wrote:Sorry, but your performance during the previous interview was less than stellar, and this one was even worse.

Maybe you don't quite understand the process involved. Vox's views get exposed to a wider audience, the more thoughtful of which will realize their value.

Win and lose in debate is in the eye of the beholder. The purpose is the exposition of ideas.

Expand your conceptual horizons.

Blogger Noah B May 28, 2016 9:36 PM  

It wasn't even really a debate, just lots of ineffectual shrieking from Louise Mensch.

Blogger Earl May 28, 2016 9:59 PM  

She did better in previous debates

Anonymous Ezekiel Cassandros May 28, 2016 10:01 PM  

Philalethes wrote:Ron Paul tells the story (so I recall anyway; if I have it wrong it's my error) of how he came to see the real horror of abortion, when as a young medical student he assisted with a delivery, then watched the doctor/nurse or somebody take the baby into another room, put em head down in a bucket and leave em to die – because the mother didn't want em. Pot, meet kettle.

Not sure what the pot and kettle thing is implying, but I was referring to specifically the incubator-stealing claim which was a total 100% hoaxy hoax.

Blogger The Overgrown Hobbit May 28, 2016 10:07 PM  

When Louise wossname went on about the "unique awfulness" of the Holocaust, my first thought was of the atrocities of the Cambodian massacres..

Since, in parts of Asia, those same atrocities continue to this day (North Korea anyone?) by the same bunch of ideologues...?

That woman's supposed caring is load of dung.

Blogger Samuel Nock May 28, 2016 10:16 PM  

Don't forget that Coulter was an acolyte or discip,e of Joe Sobran's. It would not be going too far to say that stylistically, rhetorically and in overall outlook, no one was more influential on Coulter than Sobran. In terms of branding and marketing, Coulter - thankfully - was not influenced by him.

Anonymous mature craig May 28, 2016 10:20 PM  

But despite a few trolls I am mostly enjoying the robust debate and discussion here

Blogger Noah B May 28, 2016 10:21 PM  

That woman's supposed caring is load of dung.

Clearly she wasn't too interested in talking about the Great Leap Forward.

Blogger Elenor Laurence May 28, 2016 10:24 PM  

53: "... it reads like Vox is talking to a horse. He reasons and reasons, and nothing that she says in reply shows any comprehension or recognition of Vox's points."

Vox's point (I would assume) is NOT to convince her, but to present the information to her listeners/readers.

So many of our "rightists" think that they are arguing (or debating or discussing) with the end-goal of convincing the person with whom they are speaking. It's the *audience* for whom our presentation is intended! If it helps, think of Louise as a (martial arts?) training device: perhaps Vox is 'presenting techniques and information to the class' by demonstrating ON Louise!

On my dating/mating/marrying advice list, I expend endless hours (or so it seems) discussing (and arguing when necessary) with girls and women who disagree and have no intention of understanding. Not a problem for me -- because I remain ever-conscious of the folks reading -- the 'fireworks' draw them to read (what primate can ignore a fight?!) -- and my reasoned presentation gives the readers something to think about.

Blogger Samuel Nock May 28, 2016 10:25 PM  

For anyone steeped in alt-right knowledge, this kind of debate is face-palmingly frustrating to read. What one really wants is someone who has truly absorbed the mindset and outlook of the alt right, and is still able to critique it on top of that. Mensch lacks that background, although she obviously thinks she doesn't.

In fact the topic under debate didn't even really occur, at least in part 1. Mensch heard the word "Holocaust", shockingly realized Vox doesn't think it was the worstest worstest thing that ever happened, and she went - sorry, have to use the word, even if she is an "equality feminist" - hysterical. That's not a debate about anti-Semitism, it's Mensch clumsily and sputteringly accusing Vox of being an anti-Semite. Snore...

Anonymous JRL May 28, 2016 10:26 PM  

VFM6306 - the use of rhetoric and its effectiveness are two different things.

Anonymous Philalethes May 28, 2016 10:38 PM  

@136 Lazarus

I am sorry you did not get to hear your father's story, but I am sure it would be somewhat similar.

After my father died, his (second) wife showed me a letter he'd written to his mother sometime in 1945, when he was participating in the firebombing of Japan. I particularly remember one passage where he described dropping bombs on some building, which exploded in flames; he wrote something about hoping it was a school (i.e. full of children). Bitter despair. He did not enjoy killing, especially when he was smart enough to see some of the holes in the justifications. (The current fuss over Obama's apologetic visit to Hiroshima disgusts me almost as much as Obama himself – who I'm sure doesn't mean a word of what he said. But it is certainly true that the Axis powers were not alone in perpetrating egregious atrocities.)

And I remember when I was a child, hearing him talk about seeing an entire field of brand new airplanes bulldozed off a South Pacific island into the sea at the end of the war – because it would have been harmful to the American economy to bring home all the resources that had been expended on the war. One of the primary reasons, of course, why Roosevelt wanted the war was to lift the country out of the Depression – which his "New Deal" policies had not only not helped, but exacerbated and prolonged. Smedley Butler was as right as Charles Lindbergh.

He did me a lot of harm, but the harm done to him – by his parents and the elders and leaders of his society and country, people he should have been able to trust – was orders of magnitude worse. I do wish he had lived long enough that I could have shared with him some of what I've learned.

Anonymous VFM #6306 May 28, 2016 10:49 PM  

JRL - of course, but you described ineffective rhetoric as successful rhetoric. So don't lecture Vox on his debate skills when you can't tell good rhetoric from bad.

Anonymous Philalethes May 28, 2016 10:54 PM  

@146. Ezekiel Cassandros

Not sure what the pot and kettle thing is implying, but I was referring to specifically the incubator-stealing claim which was a total 100% hoaxy hoax.

The pot and kettle was not meant to imply criticism of anything you said, but that the US is hardly in a position to criticize "Iraqis dumping babies onto the floor to die..." (hoax or not) considering what's done to babies here.

I'm also minded of the Jews making a big fuss in their scriptures about their neighbors sacrificing babies to Baal, when some 3000 years later they themselves are still practicing their own version of infant sacrifice to a bloodthirsty G-d. True, they don't actually kill them (except in a few accidental cases), but they sure as hell do torture and mutilate them. Pot & Kettle.

Blogger CM May 28, 2016 10:58 PM  

She is a worshipper of jews. The weight she puts on the holocaust vs other tragic massacres is sorely lacking in empathy.

Honestly, I would argue that young people today are not so hung up on the holocaust because they know it isn't the only tragic event in history. And that is what it is... history.

Also, her statement on acceptable free speech: "I hate the jews" is acceptable, but someone who doesn't actually *hate* jews can't point out that they should have left egypt after the famine and returned to their OWN lands given to them by God instead of hanging out, growing in power and influence in someone elses land, and triggering a mass enslaving response by fearful egyptians?

Oh... we are talking about Germany and Hitler... now, you see, I have a hard time showing an excess amount of pity for one event in history over another.

But now, I'm an anti-semite and have no right to free speech because I am inciting violence against jews... because I can understand why the Egyptians - i mean Germans - did what they did?

I don't like this woman.

Blogger Blume May 28, 2016 10:59 PM  

It's not about screaming. She gets in 12 or so shots and let's you have half a reply about one and then it's on to her next 12 points. I know you can do better because I have seen you do it here.

Blogger Blume May 28, 2016 11:04 PM  

We have one in Galveston, Tx.

Blogger FALPhil May 28, 2016 11:05 PM  

@118 Stickwick
But if what matters is how long ago it happened, then what about the millions killed by Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge?

Not to mention Mousey Dung's Red Guard and the Cultural Revolution.

Blogger CM May 28, 2016 11:06 PM  

True, they don't actually kill them (except in a few accidental cases), but they sure as hell do torture and mutilate them.

I get why you are bitter about your own non-jewish blood ritual, but for whatever reasons jews hold to the old covenant, perhaps you should let that go.

Circumcision and child sacrifice are hardly the same.

Blogger FALPhil May 28, 2016 11:28 PM  

@140 BGKB
The ADL was formed after a jew named Leo Frank was lynched for raping a 13yo goyim girl to death.

Heh. He actually strangled her after raping her. I have relatives that live about 7 miles from the site of the hanging tree. It was a Georgia senator's son who was the ringleader of the lynching committee. No one was ever charged.

An interesting social phenomenon was that there was growing discontent in that area at that point in history about the use of children in factories owned by Jews. The victim was an employee at the factory where Leo Frank was an executive.

Anonymous Philalethes May 28, 2016 11:32 PM  

Circumcision and child sacrifice are hardly the same.

Neither are oranges and tangerines "the same", but they're both members of the same class of fruits, with a common ancestor and nearly identical ingredients.

The child sacrifice practices of the Phoenicians (or whoever it was) and the Jewish practice are both sacred rituals requiring grave harm done to infants to propitiate bloodthirsty deities. The only difference is that in one death is the result, while the other stops short of that end – officially, anyway.

Another Pot & Kettle is the big fuss Americans – especially feminists – make over the female genital mutilation practiced in Dar al-Islam and Africa, while much the same is done to boys here. No, they're not the same, but the difference is only in the forms of the bodily organs (analogous in the two sexes) attacked and mutilated or excised. The reasons for both – both the stated reasons (I had an article, unfortunately lost, from a doctor in Cairo calmly laying out all the "medical" reasons why FGM is beneficial to the girl) and the real, hidden reasons – are identical in both cases.

Who was it said something about seeing to the stick in ones own eye before criticizing the mote in another's?

Blogger LurkingPuppy May 28, 2016 11:34 PM  

Random American wrote:But as Vox pointed out, you can't really make it illegal to not give a shit.
Don't challenge them— you'll get blue laws that forbid businesses from operating on Yom HaShoah.

Vox Day said:I know they don’t. I know they don’t. I went around as asked a bunch of teenagers, and on a scale of one to ten, they rated the Holocaust a one.
But… the Holocaust is supposed to be a shibboleth! They can't talk about it that way!

Blogger vtah May 28, 2016 11:40 PM  

does this woman ever let you talk? if she really wanted an explanation then she should listen more. she will never "get it". too full of herself.

Anonymous Godfrey May 28, 2016 11:47 PM  

I remember it well. All the candidates - as usual - were kissing up to Israel (i.e. Jewish $$$). That's exactly why Ann made the comment.

The answer to Ann's question is simple... there aren't many Jews in America, but the ones that are here have a hell of a lot of wealth, power, and influence. That's why the candidates kiss up to Israel Ann.

Anonymous Roundtine May 28, 2016 11:50 PM  

Vox appears to do poorly if you think his objective is to convince her, not the audience. She also failed by derailing the discussion and widening it. Vox was clearly not evasive, she was jumping around.

I see where Vox might have pinned her in a couple spots, but from the discussion it's hard to say if it would have worked because you need the other person to at least accept a few points for the sake of debate.She was getting triggered by Vox's initial statements and going off on tangents. Do not blame the master for the student's mistakes.

Anonymous JRL May 29, 2016 12:01 AM  

6306 - I think she did out-rhetoric vox, though her rhetoric didn't sway me personally. Again, there is a difference. Since you are schooling me, give me some examples of Vox's use of rhetoric in this debate.

Anonymous Fox Night May 29, 2016 12:35 AM  

They should call themselves Heeb Street.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash May 29, 2016 1:21 AM  

Earl wrote:She did better in previous debates

Earlier debates were not personal to her.
For pretty obvious reasons (Philosemite, married to a Jew, lives in a Jewish community), this one was personal. The mere suggestion that there are a lot of people particularly young people and Arabs and Mexicans, who don't care about the final solution, was enough to trigger her into shutting down all thought and discussion.

I mean, if you want an illustration of an amygdala hijack, there it is.

Blogger Deep Thought May 29, 2016 1:24 AM  

Why do you bother? She seems to be clueless. And why do you let her cut you off so frequently?

On another note, my ancestors are European bu had fought on the other side. i could care less for WW1 and WW2.

OpenID lelaebuis May 29, 2016 1:39 AM  

>Since you are schooling me, give me some examples of Vox's use of rhetoric in this debate.

Actually, he pretty much refrained from rhetoric (i.e. emotional arguments), which is why I liked his responses here so much. There just is no answer to 1) they have a right to feel that way and 2) the average person doesn't give a shit about this.

Anonymous Jill May 29, 2016 2:11 AM  

Historical events are abstract to the mind, especially when the people learning them are fat and comfortable and not worried about where they'll get their next meal or about whether their house will be bombed during a raid. So they might care at the moment when they view shocking pictures or read horrifying accounts, but there won't be enough emotional energy to maintain the angst, unless the emotional fires are being constantly stoked (some people get "high" off constantly stoking their emotional fires). However, I do wonder how much fear actually is passed down genetically, as some recent research has suggested. It's an interesting idea because I would suspect that, as much as I don't like the word "trigger", that kind of fear-based response could easily be triggered by those who would wish to manipulate a fear response in people. A fear response is not the same as concretely caring about something that matters, though. Fear is far too visceral to be considered a matter of conscious caring.

Blogger VD May 29, 2016 2:15 AM  

I would suggest insisting on your right to finish your statements. Letting her run over you looks weak.

The avoidance of the appearance of weakness is, of course, my foremost objective in all things.

Sorry, but your performance during the previous interview was less than stellar, and this one was even worse. Next time don't do this venue again, or at least change it in your favor somehow.

I think you, and those who agree with you, should probably stop reading here. You're only going to hurt your overheated little brains.

I find it very amusing that some of you seem to think that the results of debates are best determined by word count. Or "fire". I'm entirely content with the results.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash May 29, 2016 2:38 AM  

VD wrote:The avoidance of the appearance of weakness is, of course, my foremost objective in all things.
Weakness, as you know, doesn't persuade.

Anonymous jOHN MOSBY May 29, 2016 3:32 AM  

Rickey Vaughn is pounding the crap out of that yenta on Twitter right now.
" My mind is messed up after taking hard drugs " - that yenta
garsh, you think so, yidette ?
" Of course I favour complete gun control, which murderous shooter lately was part of a "well regulated militia " ? -that yenta again .
This bitch is nuckin' futs, Vox.

Blogger Michael Maier May 29, 2016 3:39 AM  

Vox, you appear reasonable and I wouldn't say you "lost".

But I am lost as to the appeal - on your part - for engaging this emoting harpy. You have not seemed in the past to be indulgent of such creatures as this.

Anonymous jOHN MOSBY May 29, 2016 3:54 AM  

Now that brain fried female is going after Cernovich.
She's got some stripped gears upstairs, I tell ya.

Blogger Megamus Maximus May 29, 2016 4:48 AM  

Hmmm, Mensch looks like an idiotic shit, while Vox is the voice of reason.

Sounds like a victory.

Doesn't help that she tries and make everything a matter of argument when a lot of Vox's statements are a matter of truth.

Blogger Tupla-J May 29, 2016 7:38 AM  

Millenium, are you aware of the fact that your handle means "a thousand assholes"?

Blogger Ron May 29, 2016 8:25 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Lazarus May 29, 2016 8:44 AM  

CM wrote:someone who doesn't actually *hate* jews can't point out that they should have left egypt after the famine and returned to their OWN lands given to them by God instead of hanging out, growing in power and influence in someone elses land

They didn't have a choice. Their time in Egypt was circumscribed by God, as told to Abraham.

Blogger tz May 29, 2016 9:27 AM  

@118 - same here, I'm of Ukrainian descent as well. "Which Holocaust?" Then there are the Armenians.

And I often bring up the current abortion holocaust, now 10x what Hitler did. Ringing the bell is met with wringing the hands. Where were/are the good...

Oh and for those who want us to be like the Nice Japanese

Blogger Michael Maier May 29, 2016 9:33 AM  

FTFY:
http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2016/05/27/war-crimes-imperial-japan-lesson-moral-equivalence-mr-obama/

Blogger Rabbi B May 29, 2016 9:47 AM  

A little late to the party.

What is the true cause of anti-Semitism? Simple. Assimilation and non-observance. Antisemitism and persecution of the Jews has never spared those who are determined to live non-Jewish lives.

Therefore, Jews should learn to be as inconspicuous as possible in their host nations, and the last thing we should be doing is demanding special representation, in all its forms. No matter where we find ourselves, as long as we are determined to live as something other than Jews, in the true sense of the word, we will inevitably become the architects of our own misfortunes.

Anonymous Elijah Rhodes May 29, 2016 10:16 AM  

Jews have overplayed the victim card to the point of absurdity, and now are not only shocked to discover that people are pushing back, but using SJW tactics of crying racism.

The irony is that people acuse anyone who advocates for white interests as being a supremacist, but what do you call a minority culture that demands, and feels entitled to, special treatment from their host nation? Isn't this what blacks try to do vis-a-vis slavery?

What do you call it when ONE ethnic group is not only singled out by American presidential candidates when asked about America, but then gets emotionally triggered when someone dares ask "how many fucking jews are in America?".

Imagine Louise's response if Americans living in Israel demanded the same special place at the table that Jews demand here? Would she cry racism if someone asked "how many fucking Americans live in Israel?"

Jews learned that they could pull the heart strings of America after WWII, just like blacks have with slavery. And now that Americans no longer feel those emotions, they are called racists. That's rich.

Blogger praetorian May 29, 2016 10:50 AM  

I mean, if you want an illustration of an amygdala hijack, there it is.

OOSHTBHFAM

Anonymous mature-Craig May 29, 2016 11:00 AM  

re racist: If a person gets pissed off at some African people and some Jewish people once in a while, that doesn't make them a racist.

If they go around specifically harassing African and Jewish people I would say that makes them a racist, and that's bad

Blogger Chent May 29, 2016 11:02 AM  

Vox, I know you are a very bright person. I admire you and I thank you for the your fight against political correctness.

I don't mean to offend but why do you participate in these debates with Louise? What is your goal?

I've seen you debate a lot of times and you are always on the offensive, taunting people, using rhetoric. Here you let Louise emote all over the place, make incoherent ramblings. You are on the defensive and doing dialectics.

Is gaining an audience among the moderates your goal? Could you explain it to a midwit like me?

Blogger Gaiseric May 29, 2016 11:02 AM  

@Millenium. There's more than one way to "win" a debate. You don't have to refute every point your opponent makes or humiliate them publicly, especially if they're doing a great job of looking like an idiot on their own and making your points for you.

Anonymous Takin' a Look May 29, 2016 11:14 AM  

@ Gaiseric

Indeed, how does it go..."Never interrupt your opponent when he is making a mistake"?

It's quite clear Vox is giving the appearance of a bored and slightly exasperated rationalist here while Louise Mensch is emote-vomiting all over the place. It's -painful- to read her in the transcripts.

Anonymous Starck May 29, 2016 11:32 AM  

The notion that Jew can't be AMerican is as warrantless as the idea that Catholics or those of German or Russian or Chinese heritage can't be "American". I think the misunderstanding is built of ignorance, frustration and bigotry.

Blogger praetorian May 29, 2016 11:34 AM  

If they go around specifically harassing African and Jewish people I would say that makes them a racist, and that's bad

Would it surprise you to learn that there are African and Jewish people specifically harassing you?

Read "Culture of Critique".

Anonymous mature-Craig May 29, 2016 11:49 AM  

Would it surprise you to learn that there are African and Jewish people specifically harassing you?

they usually don't do it for no reason, I used to be real asshole and I deserved it

Anonymous Brick Hardslab May 29, 2016 11:53 AM  

I wonder how she thinks that illegals from Mexico (whether or not they are 'citizens' now) are going to be proud of being Americans to the point of caring about the holocaust when they manifestly don't care about America? Watch the US Mexico soccer game. They are all there booing at the national anthem and cheering Mexico at every turn.

If you can't get them to be American enough to cheer for a sports team the holocaust is right out.

Blogger J Melcher May 29, 2016 12:00 PM  

"“How many goddamn Jews does he think there are in America?”

Typical Coulter. A perfectly fair and logical question obscured by rhetoric. Omit the "damn" and we not only have a highly interesting question but an example for discussing many related one.

How many Jewish people are in America? Compared to Catholic or Irish or Hindu, say? Is the Jewish (or Hindu, Hispanic, whatever) population well distributed or concentrated in certain regions, states or cities? (Or even school districts?) If there are a lot of Jews (or Catholics) in a school district should their religious beliefs be "accommodated" in designing the lunch program or other services? (I betray my age -- my public school always served fish-sticks on Friday in deference to Catholic traditions of the day) Or does the average or Federal rule trump (so to speak) local culture, whether religious, ethnic, or linguistic? How many, what percentage, of the voting public must be of an identifiable class before such considerations come into play? Ten percent? Two? How many (damned?) LGBT sexually-anomalous citizens exist, how are they distributed, and do their votes swing decisions at either the precinct or national level?

How many illegally resident workers in the U.S. have family with them? What percentage want to buy homes and invest in businesses and accept the propositions of the "American Dream" -- and what percentage are here to earn income, buy remittances, and support families and make investments back in their homelands of origin? How many, and what percentage, of undocumented residents make what kinds of demands on the public schools, public hospitals, abused women's shelters... ? How many of these ("damned"?) problem people are from Mexico, how many from India, how many from China? How many took flight or ship with tickets and visa and then OVERstayed their visas, versus how many ("damned"?) people just walked into the country and just ("damned"?) stayed?

If we have some number of LEGALLY resident or newly naturalized citizens or recently born-here's from some single nation of origin -- say, the (South) Vietnamese communities arising in the US since 1975 -- does that or should that affect our diplomatic relationships with their parents' homeland? In this example, does Vietnam deserve different treatment than, say, Japan?

The whole reasoning frame of Coulter's question is VERY MUCH fair and interesting and under-discussed. But the expression "goddamned Jews" has obscured the issue rather than bring in forward.

Anonymous r May 29, 2016 12:03 PM  

You can call a Jew any name you want. Just don't call him a Jew or he'll get upset. Who was it that pointed that out, again?

I'm actually a philosemite on balance but this shit is ridiculous.

Blogger Mitzi Baines May 29, 2016 12:06 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

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