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Saturday, May 14, 2016

Should women vote?

Louise Mensch and I discuss everything from conservative feminism to universal suffrage and Native American intelligence at Heat Street:
Louise:  We’re now debating feminism. Vox, you go first. Hit me with your best shot, as Pat Benatar once said.

Vox:  Okay. Louise, I know that you identify yourself as a feminist, and you also identify yourself as a conservative. Given the connection between feminism and progressive politics, I am curious to know how you rectify those two positions, those two identities.

Louise:  I don’t see that there is any reconciling to be done.  I can’t stand the social justice warrior thing of identify as. I am a feminist. I am a conservative. I said in our last debate to you that conservatism was about equal opportunity, and to me feminism is therefore a subset of conservatism. If conservatism is principally about equal opportunity, personal liberty, free trade, etc, feminism is a subset of that – because feminism argues that men and women should have equal opportunities.

Which is not to say the same opportunities, but equal opportunities. I recognize the biological differences between the sexes. To me there is no distinction between conservatism and feminism, except that feminism is a smaller version of conservatism, it’s a subset of it.

Vox:  I agree that the logic holds. That’s within the logical structure your proposing that that is consistent, but the problem I have with that is that surely an aspect of conservatism is to conserve something. It seems readily apparent to me that feminism is intrinsically incapable of conserving anything from Western civilization, to even a functional, civilized society.
There is more, considerably more, there. Read the whole thing. Then discuss it here, keeping in mind that it is a transcript of a free-flowing conversation and I frequently have absolutely no idea what she's going to throw at me next.

It's actually a rather interesting challenge, especially in light of the fact that I know people are going to have hissy fits over anything that is worded in an infelicitious manner.

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292 Comments:

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Blogger Alexandros May 14, 2016 8:03 PM  

I noticed she does most of the talking in that; how very laconic of VD. I wonder what the people in the peanut gallery who haven't been swayed think when they observe that pattern?

Blogger kurt9 May 14, 2016 8:04 PM  

The classical-liberal project is based on the notion that all humans have free agency. Many of you question that this is indeed the case. Legitimate arguments against classical liberalism require the assertion that some humans lack free agency. Likewise, denying women the franchise also requires the assertion that most women lack free agency.

A world and social order where some humans are assumed to lack free agency is an interesting one to speculate on. I suppose this is the primary task of the alt-right/neo-reaction concept.

How does one propose to protect the comfort and well-being of those who lack free agency and yet preserving the liberty and autonomy of those that do. Those of us who have free agency can hardly be expected to give up any measure of freedom of action in order to "accommodate" those that do not.

Blogger Jew613 May 14, 2016 8:11 PM  

Giving women the vote is like giving a child a machine gun, there's really no way it can end well.

Blogger Akulkis May 14, 2016 8:13 PM  

OT, just for Markku:

http://satwcomic.com/eurovision-winners

Blogger kurt9 May 14, 2016 8:17 PM  

Vox, you didn't just defeat Louise in a debate. You ran circles around her!

Anonymous Wyrd May 14, 2016 8:28 PM  

I would say women shouldn't have the vote, but then my wife would divorce me, take my children, and all my money and resources away from me.

Anonymous Curlytop May 14, 2016 8:30 PM  

You know the term/belief is a massive failure when people(women in case) resort to modifying the label.
"Oh, NO!I'm not a feminist! *Lowers, softens voice into the NPR sway..."I'm a conservative feminist." Or "evangelical feminist",
Up next: Libertarian Feminist.
It's still the same destructive sh!t wrapped in a different color package.

But a good read. Well done, Vox *raises wine glass*

Blogger Lovekraft May 14, 2016 8:35 PM  

What I look for, having dealt with 2nd wave boomer, middle aged feminists for a long time, when I read an (assumed 2nd wave feminist) is the arrogance and total lack of contrition or apology for decades of, well, you know the story.

She did show respect for Vox but I noticed that she has spent years studying the art of debate, how to parry and thrust, with little self-reflection to appear truly humble.

Serious issues are on the table and her attitude reminds me of a conversation with someone who is too clinging to her comforts which a lot of us have foregone.

Anonymous James May 14, 2016 8:41 PM  

I understand why you talk to Louise M. But good God I can't stand that woman. A mass of contradictory positions and platitudes looking for a cause.

OpenID gnossoss May 14, 2016 8:42 PM  

@2

I don't think it's necessary at all to say that some people lack free agency in order to argue that society would be better off if some people couldn't vote (the founders thought so, after all, and most people consider them classical liberals). Children have free agency, to at least some degree. We don't let them vote -- why? It's not because they're not free to make choices about what they want.

What you would need to prove to oppose this concept is that the individual must be given the vote in order for his interests to be taken into account by society, but this is clearly not the case. Women and children's interests were clearly considered even when neither had the vote, and they were better served then as well.

Blogger Sun Xhu May 14, 2016 8:45 PM  

I have never seen a woman, in journalism, able to be consistently objective about issues.

They always make it personal.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan May 14, 2016 8:47 PM  

Can she name and intellectually support the benefits of the women's vote to western society?

Blogger Gaiseric May 14, 2016 8:49 PM  

She's apparently unaware that Susan B. Anthony said that of you give women the vote women will give you socialism. I think most so called conservative feminists have a poor understanding of the early stage of the movement, and they imagine that the state of the movement now is some kind of aberration.

Blogger Dexter May 14, 2016 8:54 PM  

"If conservatism is principally about equal opportunity, personal liberty, free trade, etc, "

False premises from which her false conclusions flow...

OpenID gnossoss May 14, 2016 8:56 PM  

Does anyone know the intellectual roots of the universal franchise? Who argued for that and when? Was it an outgrowth of abolitionism? The idea must have come from somewhere; obviously the founders didn't believe in it.

Nowadays it seems to be a huge intellectual stumbling block to people to wrap their brains around not giving all citizens the vote, even though as Vox said in this exchange it's already limited and there are just various places to draw the line.

Blogger Dexter May 14, 2016 8:58 PM  

"Benito Mussolini was lap dog of Adolf Hitler,"

But Mussolini wrote the Manifesto of the Fascist Struggle in 1919, long before Hitler was anybody. Fail.

As for all her moaning about women under Hitler, in actual practice during WW2 the German women had many, many opportunities. Hitler became a feminist from 1940-45 because Germany had a labor shortage!

Blogger Caedryn Stonelaw May 14, 2016 8:59 PM  

@2 I think a lot of it comes down to the discussion of whether voting is a natural right. I would say that voting is unnecessary to the sustaining of Christian life, which is important to delineate since without an agreement on religion, there are no rights at all. So if voting is not a natural right, then what is it? Classically, voting has been a privilege earned through some feat. In America, that was land ownership, then an addition of military service, then just because you reached a certain age. Once criteria were removed, the experiment began to fail.

So in the case of women, just as Eve partook of the apple and Adam, through his release of authority, doomed us all to hell, so to shall women when they take (emphasis on this) position over men.

Blogger Dexter May 14, 2016 9:00 PM  

"feminism is the most divisive ideology, and the most fundamentally societally destructive ideology since communism."

In fact feminism is a subset of COMMUNISM not of conservatism as Mensch stupidly insists.

Blogger VD May 14, 2016 9:00 PM  

I understand why you talk to Louise M. But good God I can't stand that woman.

Oh, I quite like her. She's actually quite personable, it's only her argument mode that is hard-edged.

Blogger White Devil May 14, 2016 9:02 PM  

She moved from the education system to Trump... I assume based on her underlying connection between intellect and the moral worth of a human being.

(Also the conflation of respectability with intelligence.)

Then comes the part I like best: Vox gets her to agree to the in-person charm of the Alpha Male, but without mentioning hypergamy.

(She does tend to yammer.)

Her demonstrating a personal fixation on Trump is better than cutting up her guesses about public education. I especially love:

Wait a minute. His money is loved by attractive women.

Conservative Feminist: Conserve the country so I can sponge myself a bigger portion of it.

Blogger Dexter May 14, 2016 9:04 PM  

"Donald Trump. He’s quite clearly a moron."

Only a moron would think a moron could graduate from Wharton.

Anonymous Takin' a Look May 14, 2016 9:04 PM  

Thank you for the transcript link Vox.

There isn't anything I can say about Mrs. Mensch that hasn't already been commented on.

Anonymous mature craig May 14, 2016 9:05 PM  

I think things would probably be better for men if women couldn't vote

OpenID gnossoss May 14, 2016 9:06 PM  

Vox needs to read up on his Dalrock to have better answers about who's delaying/skipping marriage and why.

Nevertheless I think the basic case is easy to make.

As recently as, say, 1950, most average men could expect to marry a thin virgin during her most attractive age range, and she would almost certainly be expecting to stay home and take care of his household and children. The likelihood of divorce was low, with much disapproval from the community on the woman.

Nowadays an average man can expect to marry an overweight woman who has had sex with 3-5 other men, who has been sexually active for a decade or more, at the late end or beyond her most attractive age range. She will probably not be willing to take care of his household and is very unlikely to be prepared to do so even if she wants to. She may or may not want children, at least until she's nearing the end of her fertility. The likelihood of divorce is high, and if she chooses to divorce him, which she can do at any time for any reason, she will be lavishly praised by girlfriends, family, society, and preacher alike.

Incentives matter. It's actually a bit surprising that marriage isn't even worse off, considering the difference between scenario #1 and scenario #2. We may well be seeing the rest of the difference over the coming decades; these things have a lot of lag associated with them, as Dalrock has documented.

Anonymous Case May 14, 2016 9:06 PM  

The feminism shit is going to get real when the body bags full of women start coming home from war.

At this point I don't even have an opinion on it. I'm just a witness to insanity.

If the women want to step down from their specialized, protected status to merely being equal, it's their choice to make. Let them learn what it is.

Blogger Sun Xhu May 14, 2016 9:07 PM  

@23 Better for western civilization as a whole.

Blogger alcade May 14, 2016 9:07 PM  

Having read the Bible, and studied the passages regarding a wife's submission to her husband, I'm not sure how she can deny out of hand that the Scriptures do not mean what they say.

Blogger Dexter May 14, 2016 9:07 PM  

"Not according to Catholic teaching. Catholic teaching is that submission is mutual."

Um, "mutual submission" is not what the Bible verse says, it's not what the Church taught for thousands of years, it's a contradiction in terms, and it's completely unworkable in practice for a relationship between a man and a woman, but other than that it's a totally convincing idea.

Blogger Caedryn Stonelaw May 14, 2016 9:08 PM  

gnossoss wrote:Does anyone know the intellectual roots of the universal franchise? Who argued for that and when? Was it an outgrowth of abolitionism? The idea must have come from somewhere; obviously the founders didn't believe in it.

Nowadays it seems to be a huge intellectual stumbling block to people to wrap their brains around not giving all citizens the vote, even though as Vox said in this exchange it's already limited and there are just various places to draw the line.


From wikipedia:

"By 1856, white men were allowed to vote in all states regardless of property ownership, although requirements for paying tax remained in five states"

Whats weird is I care less about the race and sex qualification than i do about the property and tax requirements, but those seem to have mostly disappeared due to individual state actions before national laws were set to remove the identity criterias. I'd have to do a lot more looking to see why each of the states made the decisions they did though, but it is interesting.

Semi O/T:

I have been having this discussion with my brother for awhile, does anyone know why the founding fathers preferred property tax to income tax? I have yet to find a source on the topic.

Blogger Edgelord May 14, 2016 9:13 PM  

Raise the voting age to 35. You have to be that old to be president after all.

Blogger Sun Xhu May 14, 2016 9:15 PM  

@29 Taxation and voting eligibility requirements were handled at the state level, and varied greatly from state to state.

Blogger White Devil May 14, 2016 9:15 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Edgelord May 14, 2016 9:15 PM  

Tell them they are #fascistfeminists, just not in a place in feminist legal capture like Ontario.

Blogger Sun Xhu May 14, 2016 9:17 PM  

@33 Hey now... it's not nice to insult fascists.

Anonymous Philalethes May 14, 2016 9:17 PM  

Vox, you didn't just defeat Louise in a debate. You ran circles around her!

Not that I could see. Due respect and all, but it looked to me like she got the best of it, a rare event in my experience of watching Vox debate with people. For some reason he seems to have a soft spot for her; I don't often see him putting up with such nonsense.

She did show respect for Vox but I noticed that she has spent years studying the art of debate, how to parry and thrust, with little self-reflection to appear truly humble.

Because she is certainly not "truly humble". As a woman, she knows she is right; she's smart and educated enough to put up a good smokescreen of apparent rationality, but she's never going to be convinced by any appeal to reason, because that's not how her mind works. And because she's smarter than most men, her habitual attitude toward men, though generally pretty well hidden, is actually contempt.

For me, this conversation is an excellent example of why the Ancients advised: Never argue with a woman. Because while a man – at his best anyway – might enter an adversarial discussion to determine the truth, for a woman the only object is to win, by any means necessary. She already knows the truth of the matter, which is, by curious coincidence, exactly what she thinks about it. So the discussion for her is a question of who has the power, who will dominate. One tactic is to be a constantly moving target – a variation of the theme of Woman's Eternal Right to Change Her Mind – which was apparent in this conversation.

No amount of reason or logic will ever argue such women out of "feminism" – for one thing, because "feminism" has no fixed definition, but is simply whatever the woman wants it to be in the moment to gain whatever advantage she can therefrom.

"Feminism" means so many different things that it appears to mean very little. Its advocates constantly contradict each other and themselves. In casting off feminine reserve and modesty they seem to have learned intellectual shamelessness as well. Rather than damaging feminism, its incoherence offers an easy defense against criticism: whatever the complaint, the response is that it misses the mark because feminism is really something else.Jim Kalb

The famous George Washington quote appears to be spurious (at least according to Wikiquote, but remains relevant: "Government is not reason; it is not eloquence; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master." Allowing women to get their hands on this force is suicide for civilization.

The elemental struggle between the sexes is neither fought nor won in the field of reason, with words. The only stronger argument this female would recognize would be when she is put over some man's knee and shown her place – not that it has to happen literally, but only if the real potential is there and she recognizes it will she defer. And that has nothing to do with logic or reason.

Blogger SciVo May 14, 2016 9:19 PM  

While you see the problem as being entirely women not wishing to have babies, I’d ask you aren’t young men, as evidenced by the increasing age rate for marriage, in fact just being so selfish and refusing to step up as fathers and providers?

That does not follow at all. Because of hypergamy, women prefer to marry men that are older and more experienced than themselves. The age of a man's first marriage is going up because the age of a woman's first marriage is going up.

With regards to who is refusing to marry, I don’t know. I think that it’s a chicken or the egg question. Are young men refusing to marry women because they don’t want to get married, but they prefer to play video games? Or do they not even have access to women? Are they not dating? Are they not given a chance? I can’t answer that off the top of my head.

Stacy McCain's hypothesis, which I find compelling, is that women are foolishly making decisions to postpone marriage and childbearing on an "all else being equal" basis, while their decision changes the "all else."

That is to say, on the margin, young men are not getting the signals that they're going to have to provide for a family soon, so they stop preparing for that. Contra feminism, work sucks and most men would rather not. Some few are internally driven, but most need the motivation of love for their kids.

So without any hope that they would have a wife and kids any time soon, they look around and decide to work a job that they can do half-asleep and hungover, since it doesn't take much money to afford food, beer and a hobby or three.

So then when women finally realize that we weren't pulling their legs and trying to hoard the awesomeness of work for ourselves, and it really does suck like we said, they look around for good husband material and... don't see it.

Again, as with anything in economics, this phenomenon works on the margins. But even if doubling the number of women who die childless and alone only means going from (let's say) 5% to 10%, it's a 100% tragedy for the ones in that group.

And for the rest, by not starting until all of their most fertile years are behind them, there is a natural limit to how many kids they can have. So then the group fails to hit replacement rate, and gradually dies out from the collective result of the folly and selfishness of individual women.

Blogger Edgelord May 14, 2016 9:22 PM  

Everyone forgets wife goggles too. You meet a girl at the peak of her beauty and fall in love, and when she's 60 she still looks 21 to you.

Blogger Sun Xhu May 14, 2016 9:22 PM  

@36 It's simpler than that.

Feminism flooded the workforce with cheap labor, which drove down real wages until it's become almost impossible for most families to live a prosperous life on a single provider's income.

OpenID gnossoss May 14, 2016 9:23 PM  

@29 Should've googled first, I guess.

That's interesting though; most people seem to view the universal franchise as some sort of holy commandment, and can't even conceive of ending it. But apparently it only developed first as various changes to the rules by various states for various reasons that trended in the same direction, and then as women nagging to get the vote. There was never any real principle behind it at all. (Not to mention that the early suffragettes were hypocrites anyway, as at the time they started agitating for the franchise for women there were various men, many of whom could be drafted, who couldn't vote, despite the vote generally being considered to be given in return for selective service.)

Anonymous Philalethes May 14, 2016 9:28 PM  

Does anyone know the intellectual roots of the universal franchise? Who argued for that and when? Was it an outgrowth of abolitionism?

Not exactly your question, but as I understand it, modern American ideological feminism, birthed at the Seneca Falls Convention in 1848, and expressed in the
Declaration of Sentiments (an amusing pastiche of the Declaration of Independence – or would be if it had not had such dire consequences) composed thereat, was created mostly by wives of prominent Northeastern abolitionists of the time, who resented being barred from "equal" participation in the abolitionist movement. They had better ideas than their husbands, and thought it was "unfair" that they could not be heard in council.

Blogger Sun Xhu May 14, 2016 9:29 PM  

@37 Which is what makes women's predilection to dump their husband after the kids are out or almost out of the house so hilarious.

Honey, you will never get those "husband goggles" from any other guy. All men will now see you for the dumpy middle-aged fool that you are.

Blogger tz May 14, 2016 9:37 PM  

Louise:
No, because Benito Mussolini was lap dog of Adolf Hitler, and I’m sure you’re well aware that Adolf Hitler’s program for women was ‘Kinder, Kirche, Küche, Krankenstunde’ , meaning, “Children, church, kitchen, hospital.” That’s what he saw women has having a role doing. In Nazi Germany, women were awarded the Iron Cross if they’d had a certain number of children.


See! The KKKK, or is it like the WW2 song K-K-K-Katy?

OTOH I can conceive of a solution, Women can vote after their 5th child.

It was made the law in Nazi Germany that if a woman, a mother bearing this cross got in, let’s say a railway carriage, the other people had to vacate their seats for her, because her job was to be a brood mare. He took the most anti-feminist position that it is possible to take.

I think this is a worse evil than most things I've heard out of PP and NARAL (I don't count SJWs as they are usually so vapid there is nothing to refute, only open a window to let the miasma exit).

I'm not sure about single-sex clubs, other than the Trump deck featuring Milo as Queen. I don't want to get into spades.

Stefan Molyneux talks much on Women voting - single women want security (from the state), married women don't want their husbands stolen from.

Only the K-selected should vote.

Trump - HIV was a sentence to a horrible death. I don't have a "bear phobia" because I don't want to get between a grizzly and cubs. And if I was going to be forced to fight in a stupid war, I'd rediscover my asthma. I think that part of the exchange was a virtual or indirect shit-test.

Louise is NOT a Catholic, and if you remove the "Spirit of Vatican 2" heresies, you find Men as the provider, and Women bearing and nurturing children. Restated clearly in John Paul II's "Theology of the Body". The husband does not have to SUBMIT to his wife, but might have to sacrifice himself, Christlike. Christ, even in the crucifixion wasn't submissive.

... Intelligent women ... their shit-tests stink more.

And women seeking Alpha tend to look at a superficial level - it is hard, assuming you aren't using a cyber-yenta, to find a hidden alpha. Someone 5 foot tall might be a multimillionaire but it won't be visible.



Blogger CM May 14, 2016 9:48 PM  

The classical-liberal project is based on the notion that all humans have free agency.

Once upon a time in a land far away, I speculated on free agency. I think what women consider the free agency of men is a myth. This kind of ties in to VD's debate here.

Women who have been given the right to vote by the lobbying of the feminist movement are far more inclined to abandon the security of marriage and vote for security in government so they can hold this "free agency" that the assume men have. In doing so, while still relying on men who are the backbone of the economy in spite of feminism, it unmoores men from the rewards of acting with some responsibility, giving them REAL free agency.

Men have never had free agency. Women think they have, but they haven't. Their free reign desires have always had a check on them due to the pursuit of heirs, provision for those heirs and their mother, and protecting them by sheer force or creating a safe environment via civilization building.

This is why matriarchies fail, because men are given free agency.

Anonymous Philalethes May 14, 2016 9:50 PM  

Btw, I haven't been following developments closely the last couple days... Is Trump actually now backtracking on immigration – the single issue which made him the single candidate worth caring at all about, despite his many flaws? Is my sister actually correct, that he's a LIAR?

Anonymous mature craig May 14, 2016 9:55 PM  

Also what occurrs to me is the country is way way different now then it was in 1791

Blogger the bandit May 14, 2016 9:55 PM  

Vox points out that educated, feminist women don't have children, the response is: "Young men are getting married later and later."

Yeah, she's a feminist, all right.

Blogger tz May 14, 2016 9:55 PM  

I've always found Larry Niven's Kzinty fascinating, especially the part where the females were non-sentient. He wasn't intentionally describing the human species.
Where no Star Trek episode will go, ever.

Blogger CM May 14, 2016 9:57 PM  

Christ, even in the crucifixion wasn't submissive.

I can not figure out the argument against this. In the comparison to church and christ, where exactly is christ submitting to the church.

Blogger tz May 14, 2016 9:58 PM  

Young men are getting married later. These days it takes time, sometimes years, to get past the harridans and harpies.

Anonymous Philalethes May 14, 2016 9:59 PM  

Not to mention that the early suffragettes were hypocrites....

Not really; the concept simply doesn't apply. As John Ross explained: Men are true to their word; women are true to their feelings. Feelings change, thus what women say changes as well. The term "hypocrite", like other terms of reason such as "fair" or "equality", is in the female mind only a tool or weapon that can be used to get what is desired out of those who believe they have some objective meaning – i.e. men.

Nancy Collins: "You genuinely like women, don't you?"
Jack Nicholson: "Yeah, I genuinely do. I prefer the company of women, and I have deep respect for them. I'm buzzed by the female mystique. I always tell young men there are three rules: They hate us, we hate them; they're stronger, they're smarter; and, most important, they don’t play fair."
(Rolling Stone interview, March 29, 1984)

Blogger Student in Blue May 14, 2016 10:08 PM  

Ugh, not this "mutual submission" tripe again.

You're really far too kind to her Vox.

Blogger Lazarus May 14, 2016 10:11 PM  

re: trump not polling well with women.

I live in a place where the equivalent of a state government was run by conservatives for decades, where very few people admitted to voting for them. With Trump, da womenz get da tingle, but they will not admit it, because ....LOVE IS REAL!

Anonymous Ain May 14, 2016 10:13 PM  

"Louise: I don’t see that there is any reconciling to be done. I can’t stand the social justice warrior thing of identify as. I am a feminist. I am a conservative. I said in our last debate to you that conservatism was about equal opportunity, and to me feminism is therefore a subset of conservatism. If conservatism is principally about equal opportunity, personal liberty, free trade, etc, feminism is a subset of that – because feminism argues that men and women should have equal opportunities."

Replacing every instance of conservative and conservatism with liberal and liberalism would unmask the redefinition game.

Blogger Lazarus May 14, 2016 10:18 PM  

Student in Blue wrote:Ugh, not this "mutual submission" tripe again.

You're really far too kind to her Vox.


Men are responsible for making things safe. Women are responsible for making things pleasant.

These are my thoughts.

OpenID 6eb4663a-f39a-11e3-aed0-d7d38ec8d6cd May 14, 2016 10:24 PM  

That website ("Heat Street") smells of contrived, (((controlled opposition))), try hard, neocon propaganda attempting, lamely, to be young and "hip". Like Vox News they had the good sense to not allow themselves to get battered bloody by allowing comments.

Blogger Chief Matthew Heaving Bosoms May 14, 2016 10:25 PM  

Hey, Akulkis:

Sorry for being a dick the other day.

Matthew

Blogger kurt9 May 14, 2016 10:34 PM  

Instead of basing it on gender, why not limit the franchise to net tax payers or even more exclusive, to those who file "Schedule C" of the 1040, thus limiting the franchise to business owners and the self-employed.

The founding fathers limited the franchise to land owners because at the time anyone who was productive owned land.

The obsession with hedonism is one thing. But its clear to me that we want to create a society that favors the productive.

Any society get more of what it subsidizes and less of what it taxes.

Blogger Derek Kite May 14, 2016 10:39 PM  

That was thoroughly enjoyable. It isn't about beating anyone or winning, it is about putting across a viewpoint in a way that it can be considered, even accepted.

She likes to parry with a sharp edge, but if you probe you find that she isn't quite so dogmatic.

Great fun.

Blogger Teri May 14, 2016 10:43 PM  

The real question is: which is more important, having property owners vote or restricting voting by sex? I would be willing to stop voting (after this election). But I own property and pay taxes on it. I would be a more reliable conservative vote than a non-property owning man.

My personal opinion is that women vote based on emotion way too often.

Anonymous BGKB May 14, 2016 10:44 PM  

Conservative Feminist: Conserve the country so I can sponge myself a bigger portion of it.

5 abortions 1000 ex boyfriends and then decides to pretend to get a good man with lots of money. If abortion was illegal but the only punishment for women was to have the info be publicly available so they couldn't trick a better man than they deserve.

Anonymous Takin' a Look May 14, 2016 10:46 PM  

@ CM

"This is why matriarchies fail, because men are given free agency"

This. Why should a man care if women can leave them, take half their stuff, take more stuff and most importantly, take the kids?

What's in it for the 80% decent men if she divorce-rapes him because she is "un-haaaaappy"?

Seriously, why do people rag on the MGTOW movement? What iron-clad incentive is there for them nowadays to bust ass, provide for wife and kids without getting screwed over? Fuck feelings, explain in succinct detail why a good Christian (or moral man, period) should "man up" and marry a slut (often with kids in tow).

It's one thing to marry a widow with or without kids, quite another to marry a slut. I could understand a divorcee Christian woman who left an abusive or cheating or pedophile psychopath or was abandoned. Though even then, I'd say "buyer beware"

I'm on the side of the average man here, the average man is not a woman's dreamboat, but he WILL work his ass off to support a loving wife and their children.

As long as the Law gives a woman the right to divorce-rape a man, she ain't getting shit but Tindr hook-ups with double-wrapped condoms.

Blogger PVW May 14, 2016 10:50 PM  

Regarding universal suffrage, don't forget, the Jacksonian era of democratization, that led the states to end their property requirement for white men voting. Compare the state constitutions that came out of the founding era to those that came out of the 1820s (Jacksonian era). Property requirements were seen as elitist. The suffragists were often middle class or elite women whose families had property and money. They objected that lower class men had the right to vote, while they, as women of property and money did not. They argued that they experienced "taxation without representation."

Blogger Student in Blue May 14, 2016 10:52 PM  

@54. Lazarus
These are my thoughts.

That's nice, but it has nothing to do with "mutual submission".

Blogger praetorian May 14, 2016 11:08 PM  

‘Kinder, Kirche, Küche, Krankenstunde’

I literally agree with literally Hitler.

Blogger Josh May 14, 2016 11:11 PM  

Seriously, why do people rag on the MGTOW movement?

Because the future belongs to those who show up for it.

And because mgtows are annoying defeatists.

Blogger Arthur Isaac May 14, 2016 11:12 PM  

Not no, hell no.

When the soon to be performed autopsy is performed on Western Civilization, the cancer will be identified as spreading from the expansion of the franchise, just as it was in Rome.

Blogger Lazarus May 14, 2016 11:18 PM  

Student in Blue wrote:@54. Lazarus

These are my thoughts.

That's nice, but it has nothing to do with "mutual submission".



Okay, but I think it is a practical subset of :

We are exhorted also to submit ourselves one to another in the reverence of the Lord, not to be dictatorial, not to be too self-assertive, not to be anxious that our will should be done on earth or in heaven, but rather desirous that the will of the Lord should thus be done, and that we may be looking to note his leadings and providences in and through others as well as through ourselves, and especially to note the instructions in his Word.

Blogger praetorian May 14, 2016 11:27 PM  

First of all, let me just be specific. I don’t have a problem with women voting in a direct democracy of the sort we have in national referenda.

What?

Is this the part of the plan where we say things we don't actually believe in order to take power and put into action the next phase of the plan where we are actually honest about our plans?

Let’s get this straight. The founding fathers, number one, aren’t God. I know this may be heresy to you, but number two, the founding fathers built into the constitution the ability to have it changed.... Therefore, their original franchise is frankly irrelevant, since they built into it the ability to change it

There's your smart conservative feminist, like totally not burning down western civ for sentimental qualms, folks.

She is pretty good looking, though.

Blogger Lazarus May 14, 2016 11:30 PM  

Arthur Isaac wrote:Not no, hell no.

When the soon to be performed autopsy is performed on Western Civilization, the cancer will be identified as spreading from the expansion of the franchise, just as it was in Rome.


Western civilization, an amalgamation of Roman and Christian ethics, is not the equivalent of the Kingdom of God that will be for all time. The demise of Christendom was prophesied. It is useless to try to protect or revive it, because God seems to have other plans. One can speculate what these are, but I suggest one give up on all the old models.

Blogger Lazarus May 14, 2016 11:32 PM  

praetorian wrote:he is pretty good looking, though

She will blow up real good as she ages. Plus, who is the guy with the beads? What's up with that.

Blogger Were-Puppy May 14, 2016 11:33 PM  

They have some great SJW articles at that website

Anonymous Takin' a Look May 14, 2016 11:37 PM  

@ Josh

I understand that. The problem is that 80% of men in the White West under the age of 35 have never married.

You do understand that is...bad, right?

Blogger praetorian May 14, 2016 11:41 PM  

Seriously, why do people rag on the MGTOW movement?

MGTOW makes a lot of sense examined at the individual level. It's obviously no way to run a civilization because it is inherently degenerative, but I've got no problem with their logical analysis of the current state of affairs.

Men are always going to call other men pussies, especially in front of women. Men don't give much of a shit about other men, for the most part, because:

1000 women + 1 man = A potential civilization
1000 men + 1 woman = A very short horror film, followed by a very sad gay porno

This is why, rather than men telling women to shut the fuck up, stop slutting around and have kids with a man they can convince to stick around, we tell men to improve themselves and man up.

Anonymous Takin' a Look May 14, 2016 11:44 PM  

@ Josh

And the vast majority of these men who don't marry aren't having bastards. The majority of bastards are from the thugs who wet panties and have ZFG for child support.

Women abort the Tindr beta, keep the alpha's kid.

And the state kills any decent man who objects.

Blogger Josh May 14, 2016 11:45 PM  

I understand that. The problem is that 80% of men in the White West under the age of 35 have never married.

You do understand that is...bad, right?


Of course it's bad, and mgtow is not a solution.

Anonymous Takin' a Look May 14, 2016 11:52 PM  

@ Praetorian

True, so we tell the men to "Man up" and they flip us the bird.

It takes -time- and effort on an average man's part to build himself up and have the financial security for a wife and children. He may be in his 40s by then....

You know any fertile 40ish virgin females? I thought not.

Until we allow the good, hard working men who successfully landed themselves by 30 or 40 years of age the right to marry hot as fuck virgin 15-20 year old girls properly raised to be wives and do the Duggar/Amish thing in child-production....

STFU.

Anonymous david1965 May 14, 2016 11:52 PM  

the limited representative democracies, the problem is that it is historically far too easy for demagogues to manipulate women.

LOL, well, Trump's certainly manipulated you.

Blogger Lazarus May 14, 2016 11:54 PM  

praetorian wrote:MGTOW makes a lot of sense examined at the individual level. It's obviously no way to run a civilization because it is inherently degenerative, but I've got no problem with their logical analysis of the current state of affairs.



I understand the impulse, but ideological solutions can be counterproductive.

Men need to be more open to recognizing women who fit their actual Weltanschauung, not their fantasy about who they are. One needs to be open to what seems to be serendipity. I ended up with a skinny blonde woman with a dog. This was not my idea, but I recognized immediately that this was my fate, for some reason. 30 years now. Different dogs, same woman.
If I had been ideological about it , and not viceral, I would be fracked.

Anonymous Takin' a Look May 15, 2016 12:02 AM  

@ Josh

Well what is the solution? Cause all I hear from Men who white-knight against MGTOW is "I got mine, fuck you,you average loser, man-up and settle"

Anonymous Mr. Rational May 15, 2016 12:03 AM  

Takin' a Look wrote:Until we allow the good, hard working men who successfully landed themselves by 30 or 40 years of age the right to marry hot as fuck virgin 15-20 year old girls properly raised to be wives and do the Duggar/Amish thing in child-production....

STFU.

Damn straight.

More to the point, those women have to be made to understand that those men are their best prospects.

Anonymous Camilla Cameo May 15, 2016 12:07 AM  

I thought she was doing rather well, though wrong about just about everything, but then that outburst about Catholic teaching--UGH! Not only wrong but repugnant. That is not Catholic teaching. For Pope-Francis-worshipping NewChurch, maybe.

Blogger Lazarus May 15, 2016 12:08 AM  

david1965 wrote:the limited representative democracies, the problem is that it is historically far too easy for demagogues to manipulate women.

LOL, well, Trump's certainly manipulated you.


OOOOOOOOOOOOOO BURN!!!!!!!!!!!

And now for the unstated portion:

However, both men and women are capable of being manipulated by the people who want to serve as representatives, Donald Trump being one example.






Vox: The problem is that it is very, very easy for demagogues to get women to fall for the security issue. If you look at the studies that have been done, Ann Coulter cited some them in one of her books, you can track very closely the percentage of women voting to the policies being enacted and moving to the economic left. My contention is that feminism is the most divisive ideology, and the most fundamentally societally destructive ideology since communism.


I think that it is entirely possible that feminism will bring down western societies faster than the economic ideology of communism brought down the Soviet Union.


I don't see anything to LOL about there. Maybe you are one of those awkward types who laugh at the wrong times.

I think maybe so.


Blogger ray May 15, 2016 12:08 AM  

You don't 'debate' with the enemy, even when she's wearing a wooly coat.

The disaster of suffrage is obvious to anybody across the West, alive during these four decades, and is especially obvious to Americans -- the few sane and honest ones anyway.

Feminism drags the personal into revenge-totalitarianism, and the nations into corruption; they will never go anywhere except down and backwards engaging feminists in their endless demands, skreeches and bullshits. Very courteous and civil bullshits, to be sure! Yet this very same religion also forced upon the nation homosexual marriage, males in female bathrooms, a vile gendered 'legal' system, the destruction of fatherhood and family, fifty million abortions and counting, and so on. But, but, females are SO EMPOWERED now. Isn't that wonderful? Instead of being the slaves of those oppressor patriarchal men.



There's nothing to debate. Feminism goes or America goes.

Anonymous Takin' a Look May 15, 2016 12:10 AM  

@ Mr. Rational

Thank you.

Anonymous damntull May 15, 2016 12:14 AM  

Louise has a habit of jumping from the general to the particular.

Blogger ray May 15, 2016 12:19 AM  

"Western civilization, an amalgamation of Roman and Christian ethics, is not the equivalent of the Kingdom of God that will be for all time."


To say the least.

Blogger Crude May 15, 2016 12:19 AM  

It was made the law in Nazi Germany that if a woman, a mother bearing this cross got in, let’s say a railway carriage, the other people had to vacate their seats for her, because her job was to be a brood mare.

No, her job was to be a mother. The fact that this woman regards treating wives and mothers with respect for having a large family - that she calls them 'brood mares' - goes a long way towards showing what's wrong with feminism.

This isn't conservative, it's not feminism, and it's not Catholic.

OpenID malcolmthecynic May 15, 2016 12:23 AM  

What I got:

"Feminism is great! For my example, here is a woman who specifically did not identify as a feminist. To make my point, I will redefine her as a feminist. Now I am a feminist like Margaret Thatcher!"

Blogger J.M. May 15, 2016 12:23 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger J.M. May 15, 2016 12:24 AM  

@VD
First of all, let me just be specific. I don’t have a problem with women voting in a direct democracy of the sort we have in national referenda.

One just have to look at Switzerland to find the answers

http://web.stanford.edu/group/SITE/archive/SITE_2007/segment_7/gathmann_women_suffrage.pdf

Anonymous Camilla Cameo May 15, 2016 12:25 AM  

One of the best arguments against votes for women I've ever seen is here.

Blogger Josh May 15, 2016 12:28 AM  

Well what is the solution? Cause all I hear from Men who white-knight against MGTOW is "I got mine, fuck you,you average loser, man-up and settle"

Self improvement is certainly part of it. Not being socially autistic is another. Being brutally honest about you own socio sexual rank.

OpenID malcolmthecynic May 15, 2016 12:30 AM  

Anyway, I think that her position pretty obviously contradicts itself early on. You did do a decent job, however.

Blogger Josh May 15, 2016 12:30 AM  

Until we allow the good, hard working men who successfully landed themselves by 30 or 40 years of age the right to marry hot as fuck virgin 15-20 year old girls properly raised to be wives and do the Duggar/Amish thing in child-production....

M'fedora

Blogger Josh May 15, 2016 12:32 AM  

On a serious note, who is preventing 30 year old men from marrying hot virgin 18 year old women?

Blogger Dire Badger May 15, 2016 12:34 AM  

Vox, why do you keep having discussions with this woman? She ignores the obvious, changes the subject a dozen times in each sentence, and never, ever follows up on anything she says, ignores anything that doesn't make her point, and is basically incredibly unpleasant to read.

She CANNOT be pleasant to talk with... is she like super sexy or something? Because I couldn't see anyone tolerating her presence if they weren't rewarded in some way.

Anonymous Takin' a Look May 15, 2016 12:35 AM  

@ Mr. Rational

We also have to give a guarantee to the average hard-working "loser" man that all his hard work will pay off in a loving wife and children that are his.

I'm charismatic (won't discuss my personal situation except it is happy)

But I'm like Vox Day on his agreement that Red Men could lose their vote.

My happiness is conditional. Telling other white men who are "losers" in the eyes of women to "man up and marry the slut" disgusts me. It requires us charismatic Men to stop that bullshit and start shaming sluts and cads. Otherwise the 80% good men "losers" will either kill us all in explosive rage or say "fuck it" and sink into games and other hobbies while the White World turns into Brazil.

Blogger praetorian May 15, 2016 12:38 AM  

Being brutally honest about you own socio sexual rank.

(kek)

MGTOW is exactly that, Josh.

A delta, through a lot of effort and some luck, may raise themselves to a beta. Congrats, now your hard-won rank of a 7 entitles you to get nuclear rejections from female 6s and 7s that are alpha widows. But you can land a 5, who likely is an alpha widow as well, but at least is forced to be a bit honest about themselves by circumstances.

I'm not MGTOW, but I get it. I don't make fun of those guys, or hate them. It's the feral females that are the causal factor.

Blogger Dexter May 15, 2016 12:41 AM  

@96, yeah, I don't get it, I have read two interviews and both times she struck me as ignorant, unpleasant and dishonest. Can't see the point in interacting with such a creature.

Anonymous Takin' a Look May 15, 2016 12:43 AM  

@ Josh

Awesome, great comebacks absolving you of any social responsibility. Fuck all those socially retarded losers.

Plan on a harem? Gonna eunuch them all when it comes down to the wire?

Blogger praetorian May 15, 2016 12:44 AM  

I don't get it, I have read two interviews and both times she struck me as ignorant, unpleasant and dishonest. Can't see the point in interacting with such a creature.

Here, let me help.

Blogger Josh May 15, 2016 12:46 AM  

Awesome, great comebacks absolving you of any social responsibility. Fuck all those socially retarded losers.

Who is preventing 30 year old men from marrying hot virgin 18 year old women?

Blogger SciVo May 15, 2016 12:47 AM  

praetorian wrote:First of all, let me just be specific. I don’t have a problem with women voting in a direct democracy of the sort we have in national referenda.

What?

Is this the part of the plan where we say things we don't actually believe in order to take power and put into action the next phase of the plan where we are actually honest about our plans?


By "we" I hope he means "Western Civilization," since "we" in the United States have never had a national referendum. The alternative is that he's gone native (Italian) and off the (American) rez.

Blogger Josh May 15, 2016 12:47 AM  

In the spirit of Sailer's Law of Female Journalism, I give you Josh's Law of MGTOW: social norms must be overturned do that, come the revolution, the MGTOW will have ALL THE SEX he so rightfully deserves.

Anonymous Takin' a Look May 15, 2016 12:47 AM  

@ Josh

Really? You think it is just that easy for a landed man to seek out teen-age virgins without "shriek and point and scold"?!?!

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother May 15, 2016 12:49 AM  

I was able to find a 25 year old virgin on Match.com who had never set foot on a college campus. Think Deborah Ann Woll with real red hair. Why can't any of you do the same?

She's given me three sons and just slapped together a shit hot bowl of soup and served me first for dinner.

If I can so can you. Quit bitching. I'm not an alpha. I just go for it and don't second guess myself or admit defeat before battle is joined.

Blogger Dexter May 15, 2016 12:50 AM  

@101, so what? Doesn't matter what she looks like. He's not trying to get into her pants.

Blogger Josh May 15, 2016 12:50 AM  

Really? You think it is just that easy for a landed man to seek out teen-age virgins without "shriek and point and scold"?!?!

I never said it was that easy. Or that it ever was that easy. "shriek and point and scold" is not the same as preventing an action.

Anonymous Takin' a Look May 15, 2016 12:51 AM  

@ Josh

Yeah, cause the average loser 80% man just wants "sex". No romance, no children, no desire to fulfill his protective/provider instincts.


Yep, you must be enjoying your yuge harem. Good for you, you sociopath.

Blogger Josh May 15, 2016 12:52 AM  

Why can't any of you do the same?

Because they are secret kings and everyone should acknowledge their rightful place on the throne and give them all the sex.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother May 15, 2016 12:53 AM  

Ass, cash or grass, Josh. Nobody rides for free.

Anonymous Takin' a Look May 15, 2016 12:56 AM  

@Stg/animal mother and Josh

I am so happy for your unique, solipsistic circumstances. Let's apply that to ALL the 18-35 young White West men who never marry.

Got enough Boomers and lucky Gen-Xers to join you in the coming road wars?

Blogger Josh May 15, 2016 12:57 AM  

There is nothing wrong with a message of "man the fuck up."

Blogger Josh May 15, 2016 12:59 AM  

I am so happy for your unique, solipsistic circumstances.

They're not fucking unique. They're normal.

Men and women have been marrying and having babies for thousands of years.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother May 15, 2016 12:59 AM  

Bullshit, Takin a Look. If you want a woman you must take her. Women aren't handed out. Nothing is free. It never will be. You're living in a fantasy world. The world has always been a son of a bitch. It always will be until Jesus returns with clouds of glory and angels.

Blogger praetorian May 15, 2016 1:00 AM  

See?

Men find it almost impossible to work across socio-sexual classes in the interest of civilization. It's the 1000-1 problem.

Monogamy is the socialism of pussy. I'm a National Monogamist.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother May 15, 2016 1:01 AM  

A man can transcend whatever socio sexual class he finds himself in by transcending one emotion: fear. If you are afraid you will get nothing. If you spurn fear and ignore it you will succeed.

Anonymous Takin' a Look May 15, 2016 1:02 AM  

@ Josh

(There is nothing wrong with a message of "man the fuck up.")

I totally agree, are you man enough to guide, discipline and help and love these broken boys?

Or are you just a little bitch who wants to castigate without giving his precious time to help build up strong and loyal allies?

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother May 15, 2016 1:03 AM  

Takin a Look,

If you stick around and quit fucking whining you might learn something about life.

Blogger Josh May 15, 2016 1:03 AM  

Plenty of girls on the girl tree. Plenty of girls that want to get married and have babies and be mommies.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother May 15, 2016 1:04 AM  

But there are no girls hiding up your ass or in your closet. Face your fear, conquer it and win!

Blogger Josh May 15, 2016 1:06 AM  

I totally agree, are you man enough to guide, discipline and help and love these broken boys?

You make that sound gay. Very, very gay.

Anonymous Takin' a Look May 15, 2016 1:06 AM  

@ Stg58/animal mother

So help them get over their fear and awkwardness, or is it REALLY all about you and Josh and others preening over your lucky circumstances and abilities?

Again, all I see is "I got mine, fuck you, you loser (regardless of your circumstances)"

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother May 15, 2016 1:08 AM  

Broken boys with no fathers on earth still have a Father. The Word of God is your guide, rod and staff. The will of God is revealed through His Word. You want Game? It's Game from cover to cover. Men who give zero fucks.

Read it. Learn.

Blogger Josh May 15, 2016 1:11 AM  

you and Josh and others preening over your lucky circumstances and abilities?

What does luck have to do with it?

That's a cop out much like a liberal looking at a successful person and saying "oh, they just got lucky."

Blogger SciVo May 15, 2016 1:12 AM  

Josh wrote:On a serious note, who is preventing 30 year old men from marrying hot virgin 18 year old women?

You just destroyed Louise's attempt to put delayed marriage on men. No, if it were men's fault, then only men would get married later. If women actually wanted to get married and have kids, and men didn't, then all women would have to do is look at older men.

Women not only don't want to do that, they don't need to do that, because it's entirely their own choice to wait. We know for a scientific fact that if women said "no sex until marriage and I want it now" then men would go along with that, because they used to.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother May 15, 2016 1:12 AM  

I've earned every damn piece of my life. My wife, my sons, my house, my career. I've worked my ass off to make it happen. It's easy to just whine, complain and attribute my success to luck. My success is due to hard work and the grace of God.

Blogger Josh May 15, 2016 1:12 AM  

My advice? Find a church that preaches the Word and become part of that community.

Anonymous Takin' a Look May 15, 2016 1:13 AM  

Oh, so helping your fellow man (who could be an ally) is gay.

Well guess I'm a huge faggot since I help greenhorns on the job or awkward boys approaching girls or teaching how to properly sight a join, read a concordance, dress a kill.


Gotcha. Virtually none of those "boys" are mine by blood, just friendship and community.

If that is the definition of a faggot, I accept it.

Blogger Josh May 15, 2016 1:14 AM  

Oh, so helping your fellow man (who could be an ally) is gay.

No. The way you worded it was gay.

Anonymous Jill May 15, 2016 1:14 AM  

What she calls conservatism is actually classical liberalism. Conservatism itself shifts as society shifts; it's not a philosophy proper, but an impulse in humans that competes with progressivism and the desire for innovation. I can only assume that her definition is simply the current status quo talking points within her conservative circles.

Blogger G-S. May 15, 2016 1:15 AM  

I wonder what VD's mother thought of this. Would he want his daughter to vote?

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother May 15, 2016 1:15 AM  

Takin a Look,

Follow Josh's advice. Choose the church, doesn't matter what denomination, by the men in the church. If the men in the church run it and are recognizable as men, you'll find a woman there worth marrying.

Blogger Josh May 15, 2016 1:17 AM  

As an example, my church is full of couples in their twenties and thirties with kids.

Anecdotally, a cheat code would be to move to a college town and just go to the church that the RUF kids go to.

Blogger Weouro May 15, 2016 1:17 AM  

Her definition of conservatism is arbitrary. Since her definition of feminism is based on her arbitrary definition of conservatism, it's also arbitrary. There's no reason to give "conservatism" the constraints she does. Someone could say the exact opposite thing is "conservatism" and it would be equally true. So "conservatism" doesn't actually mean anything. Same with feminism, apparently.

But she does seem literally conservative in that she says she wants to hearken back to an earlier form of "feminism." I don't think "intersectionality" has anything to do with it. I think this is a situation where conservatism is following after progressivism. So it has naturally accepted feminism just as it has already started accepting homosexuality. I bet this woman already has an argument that gay "marriage" is actually a conservative thing.

Blogger Crude May 15, 2016 1:18 AM  

So help them get over their fear and awkwardness, or is it REALLY all about you and Josh and others preening over your lucky circumstances and abilities?

You're asking them for something they can't give, but for some reason they don't want to admit they can't give it. So they're telling you, in a very passive way, to please ask someone else.

In fairness, you're also asking a very difficult question: how do you educate men (who, either by nature or conditioning, are socially awkward and lacking confidence) to find women, start relationships and build families? Oh, and how do you do this successfully, knowing that a marriage can seem great for X years, then hit the skids and blow up beyond repair for who knows how many reasons?

It's not of much help, but one bit of advice I'd give is: there's no surefire answer, no totally safe bet, and to a degree you have to deal with things as they come. For passive or socially awkward men, this can suck, but 'learning to take risks' is a big part of it.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother May 15, 2016 1:19 AM  

My church is full of couples in their twenties and thirties with tons of children as well. Men run my church. Men who are not milquetoast pushovers.

That's the church you want to find in your area. Which part of the country are you in, Takin a Look?

Anonymous Takin' a Look May 15, 2016 1:20 AM  

@ Stg58/Animal mother

You've proved my point, you worked your ass off and got very lucky with a good woman.

@ Josh

You don't have Christ in you. You're too egotistic, not egoist enough for it.

I strive for Him, but don't have Him speaking to me. Maybe I'm a Bhuddist :-P ah well, as long as He protects those I care for, I can face the second death.

Blogger Josh May 15, 2016 1:20 AM  

Oh, and how do you do this successfully, knowing that a marriage can seem great for X years, then hit the skids and blow up beyond repair for who knows how many reasons?

The main reason is the man stops leading and his wife no longer wants to fuck him.

Blogger Josh May 15, 2016 1:22 AM  

You don't have Christ in you. You're too egotistic, not egoist enough for it.

Clearly.

Blogger Josh May 15, 2016 1:24 AM  

Look...life is work, marriage is work, raising kids is work. It's work, and it's damned hard work.

Blogger praetorian May 15, 2016 1:24 AM  

Men tearing down other men, while feral female behavior burns western civ to the ground: The Thread.

Blogger Josh May 15, 2016 1:24 AM  

Here's a good place to start:

http://alphagameplan.blogspot.com/2011/03/dragon-slaying.html?m=1

Anonymous Takin' a Look May 15, 2016 1:25 AM  

@ Crude

Agreed, they are too solipsistic in their own lives to fully realize what the world actually is and is becoming.

Hell, it's the same shit I hear from the "I stand with Israel and the Jews" Cruzlims." As opposed to Trump talking about Christians in one way, the Middle-easterner Christians getting slaughtered by ISIS.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother May 15, 2016 1:27 AM  

No Praetorian. We aren't tearing Takin a Look down. We're challenging him to stop accepting excuses and to do it. It can be done. It has to be done.

Blogger Weouro May 15, 2016 1:28 AM  

The idea that the Bible doesn't teach that the wife is subject to the husband is ludicrous.

It was weird that at the end she understood the importance of generalizing when it came to women wanting men they can look up to but not earlier when you were talking about IQ. Biblical marriage creates men women can look up to and women who can look up to men. She mentioned other ways men can gain status, such as through starting a business or the military. I wonder why she has a problem with subjection in marriage as a means to that end.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother May 15, 2016 1:28 AM  

Takin a Look, we know what the world is coming to. We live in it very day. We read. We keep track. We live it. The Kingdom of Heaven is taken by force.

Anonymous Takin' a Look May 15, 2016 1:29 AM  

@ Praetorian

Exactly, successful men telling the other 80% to "man-up" while yanking the rug from under them. Scolding, but no commitment. No follow-up

Blogger Josh May 15, 2016 1:31 AM  

Agreed, they are too solipsistic in their own lives to fully realize what the world actually is and is becoming.

Bullshit. We share examples to counter the lie that it's impossible for someone to get married and have children.

Blogger Josh May 15, 2016 1:31 AM  

Exactly, successful men telling the other 80% to "man-up" while yanking the rug from under them.

How are we yanking the rug out?

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother May 15, 2016 1:32 AM  

Yanking the rug? Pull your head out of your ass and read what we're writing, dipshit. We're telling you where women worth marrying are to be found. Stop making excuses and read what we are telling you.

Blogger Crude May 15, 2016 1:32 AM  

Agreed, they are too solipsistic in their own lives to fully realize what the world actually is and is becoming.

I don't know shit about them, and I don't really care. But you seem to really want advice, and I think a sincere question deserves a sincere answer. Sorry that I'm not able to be of more help, but the problem of risk and risk-avoidance is a major issue with the sort of people you're talking about.

It also helps to try and identify what problems you actually have. For example: I have a friend who had trouble talking with strangers, period. Social anxiety, common thing. Once you identify the various barriers you have (and you won't be able to identify all, certainly not at first) at least you have something you know you have to work on.

Blogger Josh May 15, 2016 1:34 AM  

Our message is simple: don't be a pussy. Go do something. Stop whining. Read the Word. Find a good church.

Blogger David-093 May 15, 2016 1:34 AM  

We're going to build a Wall around Vox Popoli and Mgtow is going to pay for it.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother May 15, 2016 1:34 AM  

Crude and Takin a Look,

You can click on my name and find out any damn thing you want to about me.

Blogger Weouro May 15, 2016 1:35 AM  

About who is delaying marriage, men or women. It's obviously both. Who is to blame is feminism. It makes marriage less appealing to both sexes. Men want respect, and feminism denies them that. Women want to be loved and feminism makes them less lovable.

Blogger Josh May 15, 2016 1:35 AM  

but the problem of risk and risk-avoidance is a major issue with the sort of people you're talking about.

My advice for those people would be to get a sales job that involves a lot of cold calling.

Blogger Josh May 15, 2016 1:36 AM  

We're going to build a Wall around Vox Popoli and Mgtow is going to pay for it.

WE'RE GOING TO MAKE THE COMMENTS GREAT AGAIN

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother May 15, 2016 1:37 AM  

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

Anonymous Takin' a Look May 15, 2016 1:39 AM  

@ Stg58/Animal mother

Are you for real? Where are the young fellows I talk to going to find a decent woman? Eastern Europe? A rumspringa amish girl who decided to live as an English?!?

You got masses of virginal or at least decent white girls who still believe in Love and the Old Ways?!?

Ortherwise, STFU! Around here, all the good girls married, close to 60% of the rest are going full SJW cock-carousel welfare bitches.

I'm very glad Josh and You have such an amazing community, but for the majority of White America under 35, it is Hell.

Blogger Josh May 15, 2016 1:40 AM  

Also do interesting things...arm wrestle Japanese executives at a sports bar, kidnap your sister's boyfriend and make him drive you and your brother to a casino an hour awake, walk into a bar with your group, throw your card on the bar, and say "seventeen whiskey sours."

Blogger Josh May 15, 2016 1:43 AM  

You got masses of virginal or at least decent white girls who still believe in Love and the Old Ways?!?


Yes.


Ortherwise, STFU! Around here, all the good girls married, close to 60% of the rest are going full SJW cock-carousel welfare bitches.


Then move.

I'm very glad Josh and You have such an amazing community, but for the majority of White America under 35, it is Hell.

Shocking idea...make your community better. Communities take work.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother May 15, 2016 1:43 AM  

I just fucking told you dumb ass. Josh told you. We both told you where to find marriageable women. You know why you are where you are? You like it there. You like being a failure so everyone can feel sorry for you. Guess what. The world is a son of a bitch. Always was, always will be. It will never get easier. You can either choose to live or choose to die. Make your choice.

Again: marriageable, quality Christian women are found in churches run by men. Men who run the church, their families and their daughters. They are not found in your typical mega church.

Do you understand?

Blogger Josh May 15, 2016 1:46 AM  

Go here: http://www.ruf.org

Find a chapter near you.

Contact them, ask them about a good local church.

Anonymous LurkingPuppy May 15, 2016 1:48 AM  

Dire Badger wrote:Vox, why do you keep having discussions with this woman? She ignores the obvious, changes the subject a dozen times in each sentence, and never, ever follows up on anything she says, ignores anything that doesn't make her point, and is basically incredibly unpleasant to read.

Sometimes a woman can seem quite smart at first, and it can take someone a while to look past that first impression and realize that she is incapable of being educated by reason. And sometimes there are valid reasons, tactical, strategic, or otherwise, to keep talking to her after realizing that.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother May 15, 2016 1:48 AM  

My turn:

If you're in the South, find your local Primitive Baptist Church. If you want traditonal women, you'll find them.

Blogger Josh May 15, 2016 1:51 AM  

Also if you're not in the South you should move to the South.

Blogger praetorian May 15, 2016 1:51 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother May 15, 2016 1:52 AM  

If we didn't give a shit about you two numbnuts, we wouldn't bother.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother May 15, 2016 1:52 AM  

Does that compute?

Blogger Josh May 15, 2016 1:53 AM  

WHAT'S THE SOLUTION?

Man up. Don't be a pussy.

STOP CALLING US NAMES AND BEING MEAN TO US.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother May 15, 2016 1:54 AM  

I enjoy this. I should have gone to the drill field.

Blogger praetorian May 15, 2016 1:56 AM  

Takin a look, I don't see this thread being much use. The meta point stands: men will fight and call one another names, feral female behavior will be excused or ignored. Repeat until it don't.

Bro, I'm married w three kids and a great wife. I've said, I'm not mgtow. But I am also capable of looking around and listening to logical arguments and seeing their point, even if I see the systemic implications.

Blogger The Deuce May 15, 2016 1:59 AM  

My favorite part of that interview was watching Louis' rationalization hamster trying to explain away why she found Bill Clinton attractive in person as something more flattering than it was. He "genuinely liked women." LOL, well, he liked having sex with them. Like most guys.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother May 15, 2016 1:59 AM  

We didn't tell you to ignore feral female behavior. We're telling Takin a Look where to go to avoid feral females.

Anonymous Takin' a Look May 15, 2016 2:01 AM  

@ Crude

Personally, I'm fine.

I'm just....agog at these idiots who believe their links and their platitudes make a Man.

Notice what they avoid responding to in my posts when they respond to me as well as the insults leveled against me.

Making Men is HARD WORK! It isn't saying a few quotes, presenting books and "patting heads, good boy". It is intense, get down in the dirt, bark and laugh at it all.

Men have lost their Way, all boys are supposed to be given the proper rites to know they are Men. That inner awakening of the Soul to understand their place.

They really do seem as arcane Harem Masters thinking that they will do fine against the average loser.

Sure, if they can manufacture a bio-weapon against the 80% like Cortez brought to the Eagle Warriors in Tenochitlan with his second army.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother May 15, 2016 2:03 AM  

You can take our advice or ignore it. If you choose to ignore it, it's on you.

Blogger Josh May 15, 2016 2:03 AM  

Notice what they avoid responding to in my posts when they respond to me as well as the insults leveled against me.

You still haven't answered my question about who is preventing men from marrying young virgins.

Blogger praetorian May 15, 2016 2:05 AM  

Yes, that was useful advice.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother May 15, 2016 2:06 AM  

The only person preventing Takin a Look from marrying young virgins looks back at him in thr mirror every morning.

Blogger Crude May 15, 2016 2:09 AM  

Personally, I'm fine.

Not a problem.

Men have lost their Way, all boys are supposed to be given the proper rites to know they are Men. That inner awakening of the Soul to understand their place.

And saying 'Go to Church, the KING OF KINGS WILL DO YOU RIGHT' ignores that, as Dalrock loves to take note of... a lot of churches are jokes. You have your fiery, animated preachers on the altar giving some of the worst fucking advice in the world. This comes to mind. And notice that the problem isn't just bad/lack of advice for men, but actively encouraging the women to be nasty bitch-shrews.

Anonymous Takin' a Look May 15, 2016 2:10 AM  

And Josh and Stg58/Animal mother are playing this game....okay guys, you stupid idiots. You've just presented on a widely read blog, information for white men all over the world to find eligible women in YOUR neck of the woods...

Can you figure out why that might not be a great thing for your families and communities? Especially...your SONS?!?


/facepalm, it's for the SAME REASON Vox STFU about details where he lives.

Blogger Josh May 15, 2016 2:11 AM  

I'm just....agog at these idiots who believe their links and their platitudes make a Man.

We're not saying that. We're saying...Here's a starting place.

Blogger Josh May 15, 2016 2:12 AM  

And saying 'Go to Church, the KING OF KINGS WILL DO YOU RIGHT' ignores that, as Dalrock loves to take note of... a lot of churches are jokes.

We didn't say go to just any church. We gave specific recommendations.

Anonymous Steve May 15, 2016 2:20 AM  

Should women vote?

Of course not.

And, look: nobody loves and respects women more than Steve. I like every kind of sexy woman - big boobed, massive boobed, leggy, petite, even gingers!

But women voting is like a cat driving a bus full of doubly incontinent retards while high as a kite on catnip. It's just a disaster for everybody involved. One that leads to hysterical tears and maniacal miaowing and piss everywhere.

However, we must be fair. That's why we need seperate, but equal, elections for women.

Men can vote for who runs the country. Women can vote to establish who has the kindest smile.

Men will choose which politicians staff the legislature and executive, women will choose the nation's cutest baby.

Men will have the dreary burden of paying attention to political matters, women will be free to concentrate on pretty dresses, shoes and hats.

Blogger Josh May 15, 2016 2:20 AM  

You've just presented on a widely read blog, information for white men all over the world to find eligible women in YOUR neck of the woods...

Can you figure out why that might not be a great thing for your families and communities? Especially...your SONS?!?


It's only a bad thing if you're fearful and have a scarcity mindset.

Anonymous Takin' a Look May 15, 2016 2:22 AM  

God-dang-it you guys are mid-wit IDIOTS!!!!!

I'm -dumb- maybe an IQ of 105-120 I don't know, but I'm not a smug POS.

I understand Vox. He agreed that as a Red Man he shouldn't have the right to vote in America. And he was happy to not be a voter for a decade in Italy.

Complexity in all his statements blah,blah,blah, I'm not arguing it, don't try.

But I GOT it, what he was saying, it was "fair".

And that is why I look at the midwits with face of disbelief. You truly think it is "all about me and mine"

For me, if me and mine disappeared, I'd still fight for this precious White,Christian West. Because it provides a Hope that nothing else does.

Anonymous Jill May 15, 2016 2:27 AM  

"Her definition of conservatism is arbitrary. Since her definition of feminism is based on her arbitrary definition of conservatism, it's also arbitrary." Her definition isn't arbitrary. It's based off classical liberalism, which many modern conservatives cling to, as that kind of thinking is traditional to modern Americans and Brits. That happens to be the true definition of conservatism: upholding traditions over cultural change. Feminism sprang from the ideals that inspired classical liberal thought. In fact, Mensch's definition of feminism sounds not too far off from from 17th/18th C arguments--usually having to do with the need for equal opportunity in education, while admitting that men and women aren't the same.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother May 15, 2016 2:27 AM  

You seem to have a problem being able to read what we're writing.

Anonymous Takin' a Look May 15, 2016 2:28 AM  

@Josh

Awesome! You live in a society that has solved the energy problem, the clean water/food problem, eliminated with extreme prejudice the hoarder elite and whoredom problem!

Why do the boys I talk to need to move? You, with your amazing Star Trek tech and values will overwhelm the World!!!!

/sarc

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother May 15, 2016 2:29 AM  

Are you a woman?

Blogger Josh May 15, 2016 2:30 AM  

Remember, gammas have female brains

Anonymous Takin' a Look May 15, 2016 2:32 AM  

@ Stg58/Animal mother

Nope, you and Josh make it very clear and plain that the other 80% of men under 35 deserve their fate. Typical lol libertarian Alyisa Rosenbaum clit-suckers with a Cucktian dressing.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother May 15, 2016 2:35 AM  

Again, you choose to ignore our advice. Yoi have no one to blame but yourself.

Blogger Josh May 15, 2016 2:42 AM  

Typical lol libertarian Alyisa Rosenbaum clit-suckers with a Cucktian dressing.

Can you translate that into English?

Anonymous Takin' a Look May 15, 2016 2:43 AM  

Again, you choose to ignore reality,

You've written off 80% of men because "it's too hard"

I respect that, even as you ignore all my responses to your idiocy. Again....what will happen to your sons if good,decent,hard-working white Christian Men from all over the world flood your communities? Will they have any local white women left? Or will they have to seek a bride elsewhere or leave for more fertile grounds? Will they say "screw it, I'm marrying that hot Christian Negro,Mongol,Latino"

Enjoy!

Blogger Josh May 15, 2016 2:45 AM  

Again....what will happen to your sons if good,decent,hard-working white Christian Men from all over the world flood your communities? Will they have any local white women left? Or will they have to seek a bride elsewhere or leave for more fertile grounds?

You reek of fear.

OpenID aew51183 May 15, 2016 2:52 AM  

Trump seems to live rent free in Louise's head.
She's defeating her own assertions about Trump not being alpha in the way she obsesses over him.

Anonymous Krul May 15, 2016 2:54 AM  

Josh wrote:... mgtows are annoying defeatists.

mm-hmm

Anonymous Takin' a Look May 15, 2016 2:55 AM  

You are Cucks, you worship Ayn Rand(Aliysa Rosenbaum) if not in her economic works, her sociopolitical thoughts.

You actually have the gall to accuse me of wanting to (as a typical hajnali) the best for my local community, it's culture and people without scattering the people until all that is left is pensioners and addicts. And offer....what? A strictly and coldly calculated move to a "best area"

Fuck you, maybe you can cut yourself off and pull up stakes, but there ain't no frontier left for the vast majority of us.

You and Stg58/animal mother are just the same as Kevin Williamson and David French. You're whebes. I bet you all already have contingency plans to high-tail outta your communities if things get "too hot".

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