Tuesday, May 10, 2016

Wrath of the Rabid

Hugos Vs Puppies IV: Wrath of the Rabid
Mere minutes after the nominations were announced, John Scalzi said that the Puppies were attempting to lead a parade that was already in motion, by nominating works of obvious quality that probably would have been nominated anyway.  George R. R. Martin made a similar observation:

    The Rabids used a new tactic this year. They nominated legitimate, quality works in addition to the dross. Works by writers like Stephen King, Neil Gaiman, Neal Stephenson, Alastair Reynolds,…Andy Weir, and several others. Some of these writers are apolitical (like Weir) while others are known to oppose everything that VD stands for (Gaiman, Stephenson, King).

This is a tacit admission that the Puppies are doing exactly what they claim to be doing–nominating “legitimate, quality works” based on “excellence in actual science fiction and fantasy,” regardless of the political stance of the nominated writer.

And while the bulk of the nominations are obviously for deserving works–Stephen King received his first nomination for over thirty years–several of them are…unique.

Two Best Related Work nominations, however, are generally being overlooked in the furor over My Little Ponies (and Chuck Tingle’s gay dinosaur erotica in space), and those are much more problematic.  “The Story of Moira Greyland” outs fantasy writer Marion Zimmer Bradley for abuse and molestation, and “Safe Space as Rape Room” by Daniel Eness raises some very uncomfortable questions about science fiction fandom.
Uncomfortable questions indeed. Questions which pedophandom is desperate to avoid asking, or being answered.

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Blogger swiftfoxmark2 May 10, 2016 11:06 AM  

Then of course, there's this:

George R R Marting wiener poetry

Anonymous Difster May 10, 2016 11:12 AM  


Anonymous lpdbw May 10, 2016 11:16 AM  

The Rabids used a new tactic this year. They nominated legitimate, quality works in addition to the dross.
So they're saying EVERYTHING nominated last year was drek. Must suck to be one of the ones who pulled out or got no awarded to know what Martin really thinks of them.

Blogger Sevron May 10, 2016 11:16 AM  

It's going to be fun watching them No Award their own pedo-past.

Blogger Daniel May 10, 2016 11:16 AM  

The big thing that has been mostly missed so far is that the very design of "safe spaces" provides (unintentionally or not) an environment that fosters direct pedophile relationships:

A child at a convention fearful of harrassment or interested in a safe place for controversial topics is encouraged to visit the safe space:

CONvergence should be an experience of universal physical safety; a place free from harassment and harassing behaviors; a space that is open minded, inclusive, and accepting of all people and all forms of geekdom. However, it is also a space that allows for individuals to engage in respectful discussion of controversial concepts and ideas, and to play with ideas that may push against some comfort boundaries so long as they do not create any direct threats to other members.

"Harrassment" includes a number of things, but typically emphasizes consent - or the lack thereof - in defining it. In other words, if a child consents to or welcome physical attention or photography or relationships...that can all be conducted in a Safe Space where he can theoretically "filter out" the unwanted, non-consensual stuff.

Problem: an adult who wants to molest children very much views those relationships as mutual and consensual, and in most cases will incorporate consent. Samuel Delany argues for them.

A Safe Space that refuses to explicitly and categorically condemn pedophilia, child photography and child molestation - regardless of the alleged consent of the child - is not a safe space. It is a rape room, the same sort of staging environment that a kid like Heidi Saha might have been prepped in to titillate the monsters.

This is why the pedofilers can't reject the title of the piece, as much as they try. It is true: there is a pedophile-sized loophole in the universal Safe Space policies...and it happens with such consistency that it is hard to believe it is unintentional.

Blogger J Van Stry May 10, 2016 11:34 AM  

Considering the My Little Pony episode is a screed against socialism/communism, I'm not surprised that they're really over looking that one as well and just making fun of it.

Blogger J Van Stry May 10, 2016 11:35 AM  

@3 I think they're finally being forced to admit that everything nominated last year was not Drek. That argument just isn't standing up.

Anonymous Anonymous May 10, 2016 11:37 AM  

The hate against the MLP episode makes no sense. Last year they voted "The Sword in the Stone" for the best retro Hugo novel (a perfectly respectable choice). Do they realize it's a children's book?

So they've already established that children's entertainment is fair game. The MLP reaction is, at the very least, inconsistent.

Blogger slarrow May 10, 2016 12:04 PM  

The subtitle of much of the Rabid Puppies' controversial nominations might be, "Sauce for the Goose...."

And finally somebody noticed the real trap in the nominations. (Well, I think GRRM noticed, which is why he tried to handwave the entire category away.) Best Related Work is the kill shot.

Anonymous Steve May 10, 2016 12:25 PM  

while others are known to oppose everything that VD stands for (Gaiman, Stephenson, King).


They hate fine wines, beautiful women, and the toppest of keks?

They are opposed to motherhood, apple pie, and Prince's greatest hits?

Anonymous BluePony May 10, 2016 12:26 PM  

I thought the MLP season finale would have been a better entry. It had time travel and alternate timelines (including one where Equestria is an ashen, lifeless wasteland that I'm surprised got past Hasbro approval) for the SF angle.

The pro-individuality message of the premiere was good, but the finale added to the lesson that, yes, some people are going to be more important and better at things. That doesn't give you the right to destroy them. Deal with it and go do your own things.

Or, you know, we could have nominated Rick & Morty.

Anonymous basementhomebrewer May 10, 2016 12:35 PM  

The SJWs are still trying to spin the MLP episodes as being part of their narrative. They are out there claiming the message is pro-diversity!, not anti-collectivism.

It's the same as the CT thing. They are trying to make it out like VD is an idiot while simultaneously being an evil supervillian genius.

Blogger Amaryllis May 10, 2016 12:43 PM  

TIL: George R.R. Martin thinks Jim Butcher's works are 'dross.' He probably said a few other things, but I wasn't able to make them out over the sound of him eating.

Blogger Daniel May 10, 2016 12:51 PM  

‏@LettGuo May 8
Pedophile defenders jump to the defense of pedophile enablers. What a surprise. #HugoAwards
Retweeted Spacefaring Kitten
Spacefaring Kitten @SpacefaringK
Year's first review of vile nonsense that got on the
#HugoAwards shortlist: "Safe Space as Rape Room" by @XDPaul.

Spacefaring Kitten ‏@SpacefaringK May 8
.@LettGuo @XDPaul I appreciate the thoughtful criticism.

Lett Guo ‏@LettGuo May 8
.@SpacefaringK @XDPaul "Thoughtful criticism" is outside your dynamic range. Defending the unacceptable, on the other hand...

Spacefaring Kitten ‏@SpacefaringK May 8
.@LettGuo @XDPaul You are free to make your case against any of the points I made. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

Lett Guo ‏@LettGuo May 8
.@SpacefaringK @XDPaul You made no points, just denial, denial, denial. Go protect your children, leave the rest to the men.

Sebastien de Castell ‏@decastell May 8 Kitsilano, Vancouver
@LettGuo @SpacefaringK Her replies to your tweets have been polite and inviting you to make your case. A little courtesy isn’t out of place.

Lett Guo ‏@LettGuo May 8
.@decastell .@SpacefaringK "Vile nonsense"? In defense of pedophilia? I think you need to reset your concept of polite and courteous.

Sebastien de Castell ‏@decastell May 8 Kitsilano, Vancouver
@LettGuo @SpacefaringK You disagreed with her article, which is fine, and then she offered to consider your responses—without insulting you.

Lett Guo ‏@LettGuo May 8
.@decastell .@SpacefaringK You are implying that I insulted her? Because she defends pedophiles? How is that insulting?

Sebastien de Castell ‏@decastell May 8
@LettGuo @SpacefaringK You indicated she was “incapable of thoughtful criticism”, of “defending pedophiles” & “leave the rest to the men”

Lett Guo ‏@LettGuo May 8
.@decastell .@SpacefaringK Yeess?
Did you read the #HugoAward nom? Did you read her reply? Those are accurate descriptions, not insults.

Spacefaring Kitten ‏@SpacefaringK May 8
.@LettGuo @decastell I questioned the proposition that 3 convicted criminals make subculture of (tens of) thousands "pedophile" as a whole.

XDPaul ‏@XDPaul May 8
@SpacefaringK @LettGuo @decastell That's not the proposition & you either know it or are simply one of the more illiterate pedos in fandom.

Spacefaring Kitten ‏@SpacefaringK May 9
@XDPaul @LettGuo @decastell You didn't address any of my points either. I know it's hard, dude. Easier to keep throwing those insults around

XDPaul ‏@XDPaul May 9
@SpacefaringK @LettGuo @decastell Your points are invalid. Defending child rape is simply sick. There is something wrong with you.

AmyCat =^.^= ‏@BookUniverse 7h7 hours ago
@XDPaul @SpacefaringK @LettGuo @decastell Where in ANY of that does she "defend child rape"? LYING about what she wrote doesn't count...

XDPaul ‏@XDPaul
.@BookUniverse @SpacefaringK @LettGuo @decastell Not a lie. Xe is making the EXACT same defenses that Walter Breen chronicled in Greek Love.

XDPaul ‏@XDPaul 3h3 hours ago
@BookUniverse @SpacefaringK @LettGuo @decastell What you pedophiles don't get is that normal people don't care about your cover stories.

Sebastien de Castell ‏@decastell 57m57 minutes ago
@XDPaul @BookUniverse @SpacefaringK @LettGuo I think you’re confusing the critique of an article with endorsement of heinous crimes.

XDPaul ‏@XDPaul 16m16 minutes ago
.@decastell @BookUniverse @SpacefaringK @LettGuo Uh no. You haven't read either work. You are confusing pedophilia cover-up with the truth.

Sebastien de Castell
@XDPaul @BookUniverse @SpacefaringK @LettGuo Clearly this issue is important to you. I wish you all the best in finding a positive outcome.

Reply to @decastell @BookUniverse @SpacefaringK @LettGuo

XDPaul ‏@XDPaul 9s9 seconds ago
.@decastell @BookUniverse @SpacefaringK @LettGuo Thanks! To victims finding healing; enablers facing the truth; abusers facing justice.

Anonymous Anonymous May 10, 2016 12:56 PM  


I thought the same thing when he read it. Anne Bellot and Mark Kloos, GRRM gave you an award for dross.

I'm sure if that was pointed out to GRRM he'd say we were being overly literal. Logic is not his strong suit.

Anonymous Laz May 10, 2016 1:39 PM  

"Or, you know, we could have nominated Rick & Morty."

I can't get enough of that show.

Blogger Student in Blue May 10, 2016 2:10 PM  

You need hone your rhetoric. They were striking postures of "gee why are you being so unreasonable just be dialectical like we are". Of course, switching to dialectical isn't the answer in this case because you'll get hammered in other ways, but you at least have to have the veneer of dialectic when you address these charges or else it just looks like making a mountain out of a molehill.

Blogger SciVo May 10, 2016 2:49 PM  

lpdbw wrote: The Rabids used a new tactic this year. They nominated legitimate, quality works in addition to the dross.

So they're saying EVERYTHING nominated last year was drek. Must suck to be one of the ones who pulled out or got no awarded to know what Martin really thinks of them.

Just when I'd finally gotten over it, they just had to go and re-diss Jim Butcher, one of my favorite authors in one of my favorite genres.

Not to mention Correia's Monster Hunter Nemesis, which was epic.

Or heck, just look at the full list of "dross" that asshat just shat all over.

I'm so mad I'm calm.

Blogger Daniel May 10, 2016 2:58 PM  

I disagree, Student in Blue. The follows, likes and retweets (which obviously you can't see) indicate otherwise - the emotions are triggering on autofire, and the neutrals are persuaded. Hammering the ignorant on the fact they haven't read the work, hammering the critic as a pedo-defender, and hammering the accusations of lies with the facts are exactly the emotional triggers to pull. I stand by that rhetoric 100%.

Did you see how the white knight actually flipped to support me at the end? That's functioning rhetoric.

Frankly, Lett Guo led out of the gate and had them spinning to begin with, so it wasn't much to finish painting them into the corner.

Anonymous Emmanuel May 10, 2016 3:20 PM  

I am not sure those guys deserve the uniqueness of a space raptor, yet I definitely wish them a butt invasion

Anonymous WinstonWebb May 10, 2016 3:21 PM  

He also serves the Dark Lord, though it's beyond his understanding just how.

Blogger ray May 10, 2016 3:40 PM  

"As for the Alt Right, well, we already knew she was dreadful."

We? I hadn't heard you'd been named Spokesman for the AltRight.

Generally, the AltRight has the same weakness as the WNs -- mondo Israel butthurtness. Butthurtness of Tinglerian proportions. If the Niggers didn't do it, well then the Joos did. And versy vica.

I especially enjoy how people who call themselves Christians (despite knowing little or nothing about Scripture) simultaneously loathe the word 'Israel'. The Bible doesn't hate the word Israel, God doesn't hate the word Israel, but supposed Christians do.

Not sure who gets the Scumbag Trophy on this one, the Hebe Haters or the Synagogue of Satan, busy blabbering about kabbala and kosher. Suit me fine if they spent forever together.

Blogger Erbo May 10, 2016 4:06 PM  

Interestingly enough, Davis' ultimate recommendation is:

The proper solution is more–more Puppies, more slates, more fans, more voters–so that the representatives of fandom, in general, better reflect the general tastes of fandom, rather than the slanted and biased views of a privileged few.

Which is the same thing my friend Jeff said:

4,000 ballots sound like a lot, but when you consider that 100,000+ people routinely attend events like DragonCon and ComiCon, the Hugos start to look like a rounding error. If 25,000 people registered for Worldcon, and 20,000 nominated, there wouldn’t be enough logs in the Western Hemisphere to roll any single faction to victory.

An award with a larger nominating and voting base, an order of magnitude or so greater than it is now, sounds like what the Hugos should be. Of course, it is what it is, and all sides are playing within the rules as they exist.

Blogger Student in Blue May 10, 2016 4:20 PM  

Frankly, Lett Guo led out of the gate and had them spinning to begin with, so it wasn't much to finish painting them into the corner.

Ah, I thought you were Lett Guo. That's why I was saying it needed polishing because it took until XDPaul started responding for there to be that veneer of dialectic reason underneath the emotional triggers.

Anonymous Hezekiah Garrett May 10, 2016 5:02 PM  

@22 Hey, sugartits, wrong thread.

Blogger Daniel May 10, 2016 5:32 PM  

It's okay, Spacefaring Kitten has screen-capped your comments and my reply in order to try to bury her original self-damning defense of pedophilia, so it all works out. SJWs double down indeed. I won't be surprised if xe ends up making a confession eventually. Totally not kidding. Just like pedophil likely has something buried in the crawlspace, I suspect that the spacefaring kitten is either a victim or a Lena Dunham-like perpetrator. Many of the other active deniers fell silent (never recanted, but fell silent) after the facts became undeniable. The ones who stick to the narrative are predominantly involved one way or another in child sex abuse, trafficking or unresolved recovery.

Just speculation, mind you, but it is a seriously odd thing for a normal person to reject an expose of pedophilia as "vile nonsense."

It's like Ted Cruz calling the affair story "garbage" instead "untrue." Just very suspicious.

I hope if xe is a former child victim, regardless of xir current possible crimes (if xe is also now a perpetrator), that xe does the right thing and gets help.

Blogger Lett Gou May 10, 2016 7:25 PM  

You did the work, Daniel, I was just monitoring the "thoughts" and decided not to let that one pass. She was the first to try and discredit the story, so if she got away with it others would pile on. I suspect that the "come and debate on my blog" will be trucked out as a "didn't turn up so we win". Doesn't matter. They can see now that we won't cede this ground. They could double down, but I suspect they'll try a different avenue. They still won't touch the third rail.

De Castell's white knighting was a surprise, but he's clearly out of his depth. Backed off rather than be splashed with pedojuice.

SiB, I'm an old bastard at this game. Don't mistake my style for ignorance.

Blogger Cataline Sergius May 10, 2016 7:43 PM  

...after the nominations were announced...


I know I'm beating a horse that is so dead that the ribs are seeing daylight here.

However, Scalzi's piece was published before the list was announced.

He knew all about it in advance, when that list is supposed to be secret.

Anonymous LurkingPuppy May 10, 2016 8:03 PM  

Daniel wrote:Did you see how the white knight actually flipped to support me at the end? That's functioning rhetoric.

He didn't flip to support you. “Clearly this issue is important to you.” implies that he thinks the issue is not important (and that you are wrong to care about it), and “I wish you all the best in finding a positive outcome.” is the sort of insincere boilerplate that HR people are taught to say while they are harming someone.

He didn't even concede that your articles were not ‘vile nonsense’, much less take your side in any other way. He merely hurled a subtler insult and ran away.

Blogger Revelation Means Hope May 10, 2016 8:06 PM  

he implies that you were abused yourself and that is why you won't let the matter rest. The "positive outcome" is their typical pablum when one of their fellow SJWs is displaying too much victimization and taking attention away from their own victim status.

Blogger Daniel May 10, 2016 8:33 PM  

Yes, but the normal audience doesn't know that and I don't care. It is meaningless. They never adopt the "other" except in concession.

Always give the lesser enemy a safe retreat.

Blogger Lett Gou May 10, 2016 8:35 PM  

Support or not, he knows when to back off.

Focus. We own #HugoAwards. Now find their hidey-holes and take them as well. The SJW are complicit in pedolphilia and never stop rubbing their noses in it.

Blogger Sebastien May 10, 2016 9:55 PM  


I'm the aforementioned Sebastien de Castell.

Like a lot of folks, I sometimes check out the #HugoAwards hash tag and that's how I first saw the exchange you're referring to regarding both the article in question and the critique. It's also how I saw later references to the comments here.

I tweeted at the time simply because one person in the exchange was offering to listen and the other kept responding with outrage. Whether that came out of an intentional strategy or from genuine anger isn't something I prejudge. Sometimes when you hear yelling you suggest to the people involved that they listen to each other.

I think all of us would agree that what ensued wasn't reasoned dialogue. That's fine. I'm not an expert on the issues involved and my free time is limited so I left the conversation. I did so in what was intended to be a respectful fashion: I acknowledged first to Lett Guo and later to XDPaul that this issue clearly mattered to them and wished them all the best in finding a positive outcome.

That's not me mocking the folks in question nor is it agreeing with their position. It's me taking them at their word that they genuinely care about this issue and wishing them the best. It's the only way I know how to express basic respect for another person even if I don't agree with them.

I'm responding here now because I dislike the idea that--through either someone else's interpretation or my poor choice of words--a fellow human being might think I chose to publicly mock them.

I understand that there's a language built up around these kinds of conflicts--of white knights and SJWs and triggering and othering. No doubt my responses earlier and now can be filtered and characterized through those terms and the ideas they represent to create any number of interpretations. Ultimately you get to decide whether to read sincerity into my words or assign them a label. I hope you'll choose the former.



Blogger bob k. mando May 10, 2016 10:06 PM  

my nominee for secret author is Dr. Jerry Pournelle.

you see, he's been faking these strokes for the last couple of years in order to have the time free necessary in order compose all of these Tinglers and, Method-like, stay in character.

he's going to have Rachel Bloom appear to accept his Hugo and she's going to do a rendition of "Fuck me, Doctor Jerry" to the tune of this little ditty:

Blogger Lett Gou May 10, 2016 10:25 PM  

Hi Sebastien, and welcome to the lion's den.

A quick recap, in '14 Larry suggested that there was space for non-SJWs in the Hugo Awards, in '15 Brad offered a negotiated truce and in '16 it's the Wild Hunt.

Sorry you got caught.

After the Twits and having read the comments on this thread - and I hope you did - I trust that you understand that we are very serious about exposing the nasty underbelly of SF fandom. The people who knew all about the pedophilia of some of the most prominent members of their little clique.

And did nothing.

While children were raped.

Some of these people are still in prominent positions in SF fandom. And they think that they own the Hugo awards, and can pass them out to their fellow perverts.

We are going to stop them.

If you hope to negotiate a truce, you are too late. Honestly, last year was too late, although the Sad Puppies didn't see it. Your posts seemed honest to me, so I did my best to cut you out of the conversation. The others...

...are meat for the beast.

Best, Lett Guo

Blogger Daniel May 11, 2016 12:33 AM  


Thanks for chiming in. Twitter is no place for in-depth dialogue. First, I would note that "white knighting" is an act of support that is usually assumed to be genuine, if engaged in with incomplete knowledge. The fact that you were fairly quickly able to better assess the situation and realize that the debate might be a bit more nuanced than it would first appear is all that "white knight" mention means: your entry into the discussion lent support to spacefaring kitten, but as an otherwise neutral party, you were persuaded that my original effort may have had merit that spacefaring kitten was trying very hard to obfuscate.

So, the deeper story is this: over forty years in Science Fiction fandom, hundreds of children were subjected to sexual abuse and exploitation. Not only this, but a number of Science Fiction luminaries, including the awarded Grandmaster Samuel R. Delany, Marion Zimmer Bradley and her husband Walter Breen published advocacy for child abuse. Furthermore, when the founder of Dragon*Con, Ed Kramer, was arrested for keeping a harem of young boys at one of the world's most prominent science fiction conventions, the leading voices in Science Fiction, including Harlan Ellison, Anne McCafferey and others, rushed to his public defense, and raised funds to defend him and to discredit his accusers...and anyone who stood in their way, including the lone author who stood against him, Nancy Collins.

A few years ago Moira Greyland, the daughter of Marion Zimmer Bradley and Walter Breen dropped a very gently-worded but withering condemnation of both her parents as incestuous pedophile predators. They had assaulted their own children and countless others from a very early age.

I wrote an analysis of this, including current commentary from existing fans, as well as the original writings of the pedophiles who continue to receive accolades and honors from SF fandom.

In attempting to dismiss a very serious work that is heavily sourced (mostly I simply let the offenders speak for themselves on the matter), Spacefaring Kitten is doing nothing but resorting to the pro-pedophile tactics I describe in "Safe Space as Rape Room." All xe has done is perpetuate a child-rape culture that lies at the very core of SF fandom.

Dismissing a simple recounting of the facts of the case as "vile nonsense" is simply twisted. I am serious in that I suspect that Spacefaring Kitten is a possible past victim of child molestation or a current abuser or possibly both. I simply see no other reasonable explanation for such a poorly cloaked attack on the facts of the situation. I genuinely want every victim in SF fandom to know that finally, people are listening. I genuinely want every perpetrator brought to justice. I genuinely want every enabler to hear the truth and to make amends for their past collusion (witting or unwitting) and join the fight against a considerable evil. Those who do not do this are perpetuating the problem, and for them, there can be no common ground.


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