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Sunday, June 19, 2016

Another free trade debate

This exchange with Louise Mensch on Twitter vastly amused me. In my book, it is right up there with the digression into sexbots in the James Miller debate:
Louise Mensch ‏@LouiseMensch
The idea you need free movement of people for a free market is a lie. We have free trade with USA without free movement

Supreme Dark Lord ‏@voxday
It's not a lie. Read Mises: the same arguments apply. For full benefits of free trade, free labor mobility is required.

Louise Mensch ‏@LouiseMensch
no; we presently enjoy free trade with America no free movement between us either way

Supreme Dark Lord ‏@voxday
You can see exactly how NOT free UK trade with USA is here. Complete with tariff codes and rates.

Louise Mensch ‏@LouiseMensch
live animals?

Supreme Dark Lord ‏@voxday
3.8 percent on the sale of domestic rabbits, to be precise. Just one of thousands of examples. Demonstrably unfree trade.

Louise Mensch ‏@LouiseMensch
er... I honestly don't think most people are going to count bees and rabbits Vox

Supreme Dark Lord ‏@voxday
It's 5.7% on nuclear reactors. Would most people count them?
In fact, the USA and UK have neither free trade nor free labor mobility.

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60 Comments:

Blogger S1AL June 19, 2016 11:51 AM  

Apparently there is need for a new term meaning "largely free trade with low tariff rates and exceptions for sensitive materials and/or drugs". Either that or we'll get to enjoy months/years of this pedantry.

Anonymous Big Bill June 19, 2016 12:02 PM  

GATT allows each country to apply tariffs to special goods and services. It has never been a "free trade" agreement. It is a "somewhat freer trade agreement".

As individual industries are strangled and shrink in lobbying power, the GATT treaty will be successively revised to eliminate tariffs on their products.

Anonymous SciVo June 19, 2016 12:05 PM  

When we have free labor mobility and free trade in the birds and the bees, they call it "human trafficking." Is there an argument for free trade that would not also support sexual slavery?

Blogger The Other Robot June 19, 2016 12:07 PM  

But, but, but, the {{{elites}}} are trying to improve free labor mobility by enacting open borders ...

Meanwhile, the NT Slimes muddy the waters around BREXIT.

Anonymous 11B June 19, 2016 12:16 PM  

The idea you need free movement of people for a free market is a lie. We have free trade with USA without free movement

When I read this I thought she was going to use the old distinction between free trade and a common market. A few years back on this blog, free traders were arguing that free trade isn't the same as a common market. They pointed out that a common market would necessitate the free movement of labor, but free trade would not.

I no longer see the free traders making this argument.

Anonymous Philalethes June 19, 2016 12:44 PM  

I don't know how Twitter works – except it seems to offer slightly different content in desktop vs. mobile versions – but I haven't seen any of this exchange on the @voxday page. What am I missing?

Blogger Earl June 19, 2016 12:47 PM  

I think they mean free trade leads to Freedom, like how Marxists meant socialism leads to Communism.

Blogger John Williams June 19, 2016 12:47 PM  

You need to complain to @twitter management about shadow banning.

Anonymous VFM #6306 June 19, 2016 12:49 PM  

Go to Vox's page and check his "tweets and replies" tab, Philalethes.

Blogger Joe Doakes June 19, 2016 1:05 PM  

Uuuh huuh huu, look who knows so much. It just so happened your trade here is only "mostly" free, and mostly free is only a little alive.

Anonymous Great Again June 19, 2016 1:52 PM  

It's a red herring anyhow. Nobody is all that concerned about free trade between culturally similar nations with equivalent socio-economic conditions.

It's the free trade between rich, educated nations and poor, uneducated nations that is the problem. That type of trade is going to bring both participants toward the collective average. That is, most people in the rich nation will get poorer and most people in the poor nation will get richer.

Blogger bob k. mando June 19, 2016 1:57 PM  

Louise Mensch is demonstrably an ignorant fucking retard.

which renders her accusations of others being liars especially piquant.


10. Joe Doakes June 19, 2016 1:05 PM
Uuuh huuh huu, look who knows so much. It just so happened your trade here is only "mostly" free, and mostly free is only a little alive.



the parrot it's not dead, it's simply resting it's eyes.

Blogger Cinco June 19, 2016 2:09 PM  

Mostly free == 100% slave whose master grants certain privileges.

Anonymous BGKB June 19, 2016 2:11 PM  

er... I honestly don't think most people are going to count bees

Last I checked you buy them by the hive.

We have free trade with USA without free movement

This is awkward I went to look up healthcare traveler magazine and they haven't had a new article out since march. I haven't tried to leave the state since then either. Perhaps I should go see if I can cross the state line. http://healthcaretraveler.modernmedicine.com/

It's the free trade between rich, educated nations and poor, uneducated nations that is the problem.

You mean Walmart fish meat from Chile, with occasional human finger meat, has an advantage by not having to deal with the EPA or OSHA?

Anonymous Ain June 19, 2016 2:14 PM  

She continues to redefine things. Tariffs don't become free trade because it's on an item you would never buy.

Blogger Matthew Edwards June 19, 2016 2:21 PM  

I've been thinking about the distinction between 'free mobility' and 'free trade' for awhile. Myself, and I believe a lot of alt-right guys and former libertarian types, run into a contraction in their beliefs. They're pro-free trade and they view free mobility as a part of free trade, but they can't advocate free mobility since they know it will destroy their country and any hope of having their ideology ever embraced, mainly due to genetic differences.

However, I think this is a false conundrum. Free mobility is not within the scope of free trade. In fact, free mobility is the opposite of free trade. Free trade is when two parties voluntarily exchange things or services and both perceive a benefit from doing so. Both parties assess the value of what is being traded for and what they're trading for it. Free mobility doesn't involve an assessment of anything. It's akin to theft. Going into a country without permission is like going into a home without someone's permission.

An adequate analog for free trade applied to labor would be a system that analyzes the value of both the good ( labor, people in this case) and what is exchanged for that good (land, government benefits possibly, more abstract things like affects on social cohesion) to determine if the trade is to be conducted.

I'm sure someone could try to suggest that voluntarily allowing someone to take your shit even if they agree to leave something (unknown, bad or good) in its place is in the scope of 'free trade', and maybe they're right. I don't think the government falls within the realm of anything 'voluntary' though, and they're the ones in charge of migration.

Blogger Salt June 19, 2016 2:46 PM  

Matthew Edwards wrote:Free mobility is not within the scope of free trade.

It affects it therefore it it is within the scope. In, say, the 1950s the affect was minimal. It could probably be ignored. Today, and for the past ~30+ years, the movement of people and capital has been quite pronounced, and increasing.

Blogger James Higham June 19, 2016 2:57 PM  

Vox, shhhhhhhh! She's backing Brexit, that's all we need to know this week. :)

Blogger Rantor June 19, 2016 3:07 PM  

25% tariff on European made light trucks... which is why BMW builds the X-Class in South Carolina. For the UK, the tax applies to LandRovers exported to America. There are lots of tariffs between US, UK, and EU.

Blogger Salt June 19, 2016 3:08 PM  

'Free mobility' is the wrong term. Take the free out; it confuses the issue. It's just mobility and the its rate of change. The higher the rate, the greater the impact. In the case of US open borders, one could then say mobility is uni-directional, free, and headed towards maximization which shall cease when people realize it's better elsewhere.

Anonymous Faceless June 19, 2016 3:32 PM  

@16 Matthew Edwards

Here's the knot this contorts you into:

Supposing one of these classic examples, where country A has resource X in abundance to produce finished goods Gizmo, and country B has resource Y in abundance to produce finished goods Widget. Then they cut the head of the chicken, say, "Ricardo! Comparative Advantage!" and conclude that country A should focus on making Gizmos and buy Widgets from B, and vice versa.

Well, then, you go to the next stage and say - Gizmos are a whole lot less labor intensive than Widgets. Widgets are a whole lot more labor intensive.

Add onto this: The people of Country B love their particular ways of doing things, their political system, etc, but most of the rest of the world hates them. In fact, the people of Country A really hate the people of Country B.

The people of Country B foolishly entered into treaties that allow the rest of the world to judge them, to punish them, to do things to them if they don't play the game.

So, lots of people from Country A get on boats and go to Country B. There are Widget jobs to be had. The streets are paved with gold.

What is Country B to do? If Country B doesn't let them in, there is a laundry list of charges - they are put under global censure - they are racists; they are mercantilists; they are jingoists. They are "hoarding" resources to make Widgets.

If Country B does let them in, the things that made Country B distinct cease to exist because all of those people who arrive from Country A do everything differently - they don't like driving on that side of the road, they crack their eggs on the little end instead of the big end, the whole nine yards. Further, the people from Country A, a place that is overflowing in superfluous laborers because Gizmos-only comparative advantage have dislocated large parts of the population that could have been Widget makers in Country A.

All of this to say: To assert that free mobility is not intimately tied to free trade is to take a very narrow and a very time-constrained view of free trade and to assume that all goods are, indeed, of equal labor and capital intensity, which they are not, and that all natural resources are evenly or equitably distributed, which they are not.

Blogger Dexter June 19, 2016 3:49 PM  

As usual she is completely dishonest.

"Your argument is wrong because it is too general. Give me a specific example!"

(provides example)

"Your example is too narrow, so it doesn't count!"

Blogger Cail Corishev June 19, 2016 4:02 PM  

She continues to redefine things.

She doesn't think she's redefining anything, but she's a woman: if she doesn't shop for it, it doesn't exist.

Blogger The Other Robot June 19, 2016 4:22 PM  

Someone send them the Human Hamster wheel.

Their inner hamster needs it!

Anonymous RCFlyer June 19, 2016 4:41 PM  

I'm a Yank working in the UK. You would not believe the amount of paperwork I had to fill out and the massive fees my company had to pay for my work visa. In the meantime, rapefugees are pouring across the channel.

Anonymous Takin' a Look June 19, 2016 4:45 PM  

OT (or not)

Selective Services may be extended to women

Something tells me I need more popcorn hehe.

Anonymous BGKB June 19, 2016 4:49 PM  

OT: the RNC convention will get ugly. Why does the left talk about ugly Americans but never ugly African Americans? http://www.thedailysheeple.com/cleveland-is-purposefully-setting-the-stage-for-mass-protester-violence-at-the-rnc-docs-reveal_062016

Tariffs don't become free trade because it's on an item you would never buy.

No wonder Bernie wants to do away with 27 flavors of deodorant.

Blogger The Other Robot June 19, 2016 4:51 PM  

@26: Do they get a set of red pumps and Manpons because of the PTSD they will get from firing that 5.56mm round so much?

Anonymous Takin' a Look June 19, 2016 5:06 PM  

@ 28 The Other Robot

Yes and safe spaces, because "Grrl power!

Anonymous Peter Blood June 19, 2016 5:30 PM  

Let's play this Talmudic #$%$%, too. We'll propose a 35% import tariff on all goods, and call it "Free Trade".

Blogger The Other Robot June 19, 2016 5:41 PM  

@29: She may never need sanitary products again because of the damage to her body.

Of course, pity about the no child bearing bit.

Blogger Were-Puppy June 19, 2016 6:42 PM  

@16 Matthew Edwards

I've been thinking about the distinction between 'free mobility' and 'free trade' for awhile.
---

I came out of that last debate understanding why a globalist doesn't care about the movement of peoples. They don't want nations anyway.

Blogger Rusty Fife June 19, 2016 6:45 PM  

Takin' a Look wrote:@ 28 The Other Robot

Yes and safe spaces, because "Grrl power!


Does EFMB stand for Extreme Female Merit Badge?

Blogger Were-Puppy June 19, 2016 6:46 PM  

@22 Dexter
As usual she is completely dishonest.

"Your argument is wrong because it is too general. Give me a specific example!"

(provides example)

"Your example is too narrow, so it doesn't count!"
---

Dexter, you'd be sleeping in the doghouse tonight if she heard you point that out :P

Blogger Were-Puppy June 19, 2016 6:51 PM  

@33 Rusty Fife

Does EFMB stand for Extreme Female Merit Badge?
---
Estrogen Fortified Man Babes

Anonymous BGKB June 19, 2016 6:52 PM  

Yes and safe spaces, because "Grrl power!

I earned the EFMB but they kept trying to give girls 3rd chances back then, the one in the video needed 1/2 dozen people encouraging her and she only beat the 3hr clock by 13 min. Cunt CPT Sarah Cudd from Public Health Command, Fort Knox threw her rifle to the ground then used it as a crutch & looked down the barrel, I wouldn't be surprised if she had someone help carry her stuff when no one watching.

Anonymous BGKB June 19, 2016 6:57 PM  

Expert medical field badge. You spend a week training, take a written test at the level of an EMT test then go through different lanes( litter obstacle course, day/night land nav, triage) that you pass or fail ending in a 12 mile road march that has to be done in 3 hours. Bitches that were CPR instructors even failed the CPR lane and managed to get 2nd chances.

Blogger Gapeseed June 19, 2016 7:17 PM  

The United States is itself a free trade zone, with essentially unlimited labor mobility between states. Has the free trade and unlimited labor mobility been a boon or bane? I'd say boon on average, even if Texans complain about Californians and Live Free or Die Guys look askance at the refugees from the People's Republic of Massachusetts. This labor mobility has also shaped American culture and our notions of freedom and opportunity.

At the same time, I can appreciate how free trade between the United States and, say, Saudi Arabia has caused an immense number of problems that we seem to pay for every time we hear of a terrorist attack on American soil.

Blogger Phillip George June 19, 2016 7:24 PM  

Vox, I relate everything to religion because it is. Example. In what sense isn't a mosque building campaign a form of political takeover? With the free flows of capital from Saudi Arabia and Turkey for mosques and the trickle down effects on what type of schools girls can attend, what things television can broadcast, what things advertising companies can display, who in funding political campaigns, eg. the Saudi-Clinton House of US gaming.

Economics is war by other means is religion by other means. QED

Anonymous DissidentRight June 19, 2016 7:59 PM  

Labor mobility in the US has allowed blacks to demolish many cities and communities, which literally proves the point.

Blogger The Other Robot June 19, 2016 8:03 PM  

@33: By the look of that guy who breezed past her at the finish, it stands for Extreme Female Masturbation Badge.

However, I don't know if at my age I could do 12 miles with that load in three hours.

What is the load they have to carry? That is 1 mile every 15 minutes.

Blogger The Other Robot June 19, 2016 8:05 PM  

@40: That is an astute observation.

I have observed before that cheap illegal Mexicans are tying down low-wage entry-level jobs that white HS grads might have started with, but the same is true of blacks. That is, they were preventing a lot of white from getting their start in the work force.

Blogger Rusty Fife June 19, 2016 8:13 PM  

BGKB wrote:Expert medical field badge. You spend a week training, take a written test at the level of an EMT test then go through different lanes( litter obstacle course, day/night land nav, triage) that you pass or fail ending in a 12 mile road march that has to be done in 3 hours. Bitches that were CPR instructors even failed the CPR lane and managed to get 2nd chances.

Cool. Like the advanced infantry badge for medics.

Blogger Rusty Fife June 19, 2016 8:24 PM  

BGKB wrote:Expert medical field badge. You spend a week training, take a written test at the level of an EMT test then go through different lanes( litter obstacle course, day/night land nav, triage) that you pass or fail ending in a 12 mile road march that has to be done in 3 hours. Bitches that were CPR instructors even failed the CPR lane and managed to get 2nd chances.

The closest thing in the Air Force is alcohol rehab; it seems to be a requirement to make E-6.

Blogger The Other Robot June 19, 2016 8:37 PM  

@41: Looks like 48 lbs.

Anonymous VFM #6306 June 19, 2016 8:48 PM  

Free Trade within a nation is a) not Free Trade and b) a lot like Detroit.

That is the best case scenario for Free Trade: to be unfree trade and megaboom megabust.

Real Free Trade is simply barbarian tyranny. Someone will benefit: just not you.

Anonymous andon June 19, 2016 8:53 PM  

OT friendly migrants:

http://pamelageller.com/2016/06/idaho-muslim-migrants-rape-5-year-old.html/

Blogger Gapeseed June 19, 2016 9:12 PM  

@40 DissidentRight - Wouldn't be nearly as a big a problem had Great Society not destroyed the black family. Without fathers, many of the kids become unproductive and beget unproductive kids.

Plus, most blacks are citizens, and many (albeit not as many as in the past) are Christians.

Bonus: Blacks have to eat too.

I understand the point, but it can go too far and become too mean-spirited.

And please, don't call me a cuck. I'm just not a dick.

Anonymous BGKB June 19, 2016 9:12 PM  

OT: Timmy Cook was mad about not getting wedding pizza so he boy cots TECH support for the RNC. Bake the KKcaKe but don't provide tech service.
http://www.presstv.com/Detail/2016/06/19/471199/Trump-Apple-HP-Facebook-RNC-US

OK we all knew they would do this but didn't think they would admit it http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2016/06/19/lynch_partial_transcript_of_orlando_911_calls_will_have_references_to_isis_cut_out.html

Wigger with Satan goat tattooed girlfriend tries to take cops gun at TRUMP rally.

http://www.podblanc.guru/michael-sandford-19-tries-to-grab-cops-gun-assassinate-glorious-leader-in-houston_d5b3d7571.html

Blogger Gapeseed June 19, 2016 9:26 PM  

One other point - given their druthers, blacks are like any other group in that they prefer to live in their own communities. There would be far less racial intermingling were it not for integrationist sentiments in the Civil Rights movement. A lot of people might say that the tradeoff is worth it, although it is difficult to dispute that black-on-white crime is higher than it otherwise would have been.

Anonymous patrick kelly June 19, 2016 10:14 PM  

Drunk bloggin' woo hoo...

Blogger The Other Robot June 19, 2016 11:08 PM  

Speaking of free trade the Hugo packet is available.

Anonymous DissidentRight June 19, 2016 11:52 PM  

@48 @50
International free trade has the same destructive effects regardless of whether it is practiced within political borders or across them.

It is not being a dick to point out that we were all better off without black labor mobility. We'd all be better off still if blacks were entirely politically independent.

Anonymous Eric the Red June 20, 2016 12:45 AM  

@49 BGKB..
They have their little rationalization all cooked up as to why they're redacting references to ISIS:
"We see no clear evidence that he was directed externally," the President added.

But that statement is typical disingenuous misdirection from the Liar-in-Chief. Since this is 4GW, there was no need for precise direction. ISIS did exactly what was necessary, which was to declare before Ramadan that any potential terrorist should just go for it, using whatever methodology seemed likely to cause the most harm.

Anonymous mr hyde June 20, 2016 2:28 AM  

But is there free trade for trains?

Blogger residentMoron June 20, 2016 3:04 AM  

"We see no clear evidence that he was directed externally," the President added.

But even less evidence is enough to convict the Brexit campaign for the death of yon MP.

Due process for me, but not for thee. Rules of evidence for me, but not for thee. Ah, the delightful moral standards the left have given us! What mayhem they have wrought on themselves.

And most still too stupid to see it.

Blogger Nate June 20, 2016 7:31 AM  

i love how people claim we have free trade like its a tautology. hell... we don't even have free trade state to state. For example... people in many states cannot join online wine clubs. Tabocco products are another example where state lines become a real problem... not to mention Insurance.

Anonymous BGKB June 20, 2016 9:25 AM  

"We see no clear evidence that he was directed externally," the President added.

But even less evidence is enough to convict the Brexit campaign for the death of yon MP.


I have seen articles that practically claim TRUMP shoved his hand up the afghani moslem's ass and forced him to shoot 100+ gays at a nightclub while saying "i did it for the tranny bathroom law & white privilege"

Blogger James Dixon June 20, 2016 10:11 AM  

> hell... we don't even have free trade state to state.

Nope. Many states have a use tax on items brought in from another state, to replace the lost sales tax they can't collect on an out of state sale. It amounts to an intra-state tarrif.

And as you note, that ignores the BATF items, almost all of which are limited in one way or another.

Anonymous jOHN MOSBY June 22, 2016 12:16 AM  

And please, don't call me a cuck. I'm just not a dick.

Why did you say that if were not so ?

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