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Wednesday, June 29, 2016

Destroying Ukraine to save it

The Saker is concerned that Ukraine is the next Syria to be "saved" by the USA:
The initial plan was to make the Ukraine a sort of “black hole” which would suck in all the economic, political, and military resources of Russia, ideally by having Russia occupying the Donbass. But now that the Russians have declined to get sucked in, it is Europe which is now threatened with the Ukrainian black hole.

The Americans probably realize by now that it is too late to put Humpty Dumpty together again and they are right. While, in theory, a join effort of the USA, EU and Russia could, at a huge cost, try to rebuild the Ukraine, political realities make such a joint action impossible, at least for the foreseeable future. They also realize that, courtesy of Mrs Nuland’s candid words, the blame for the disastrous outcome in the Ukraine will be put on the USA (which is not quite fair, the Europeans are also guilty as hell, but such is life). And if “losing Syria” was bad enough, then “losing the Ukraine” will do irreparable damage to the USA simply by debunking the myth of the USA’s omnipotence. This is very serious, especially for an Empire which has basically given up on negotiations or diplomacy and which now only delivers ultimatums.

So what are the US options here?

It is hard to predict at this time what the US might try to do. The normal US practice in such a situation is to simply declare victory and leave. That would work in Africa or Asia, but smack in the middle of the European continent that is hardly an option as it would result in a PR disaster.

The second option could be to basically blame the Ukrainians themselves for everything and try to protect Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania and Moldova from the inevitable consequences of the spreading chaos. The risk here, at least from the US point of view, is that Russia and her Novorussian allies would be more or less free to move in the created vacuum and that is something the USA absolutely cannot accept. The Americans would have visions of Zakharchenko in Kiev or pro-Russian riots in Odessa and that is simply beyond unacceptable.

Which leaves option three: to deliberately blow up the Ukraine.
It's going to be fascinating to see what happens once President Trump is able to put the leash on the foreign policy lunatics who still think they can control the world through their ever-judicious interventions. Did no one ever explain to them that breaking things is a) is not controlling them, and b) is a lot easier than controlling them?

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99 Comments:

Anonymous andon June 29, 2016 4:35 PM  

I thought we were gonna get along great with Russia once GWB was gone?

Anonymous BGKB June 29, 2016 4:35 PM  

What if TRUMP offers Putin & the world the info on the US cronies involved? Make Soros pay back the 33 tons of gold? "These are some very dirty people, no we wont fight to get Biden's cocaine snorting son back"

OT: http://www.thedailysheeple.com/conveniently-timed-official-found-dead-right-before-he-was-to-testify-against-hillary_062016

Anonymous Rog June 29, 2016 4:42 PM  

American soldiers should en masse decide to stop fighting in any unnecessary war. No more Americans willingly dying for the evil globalist agenda.

Blogger Cataline Sergius June 29, 2016 4:44 PM  

will do irreparable damage to the USA simply by debunking the myth of the USA’s omnipotence.

Wha...? Huh?

The tooth paste is already out of that tube.

And the tube has been thrown into an aluminum blast furnace.

Blogger Log June 29, 2016 4:50 PM  

But threatening to break things is a time-honored method of control.

Blogger Alexander June 29, 2016 4:50 PM  

Yeah but let's get to the really important issues:

What can we do about Putin's refusal to allow us to promote sodomy to schoolchildren?

The Ukraine is but a small price to pay...

Anonymous suggestion box June 29, 2016 4:51 PM  

Give them our "helper" types.

Relocate U.N. HQ, the State Department, and as many Obama flunkies and .gov acronym agency leaders as they can handle, on the condition that we never get them back.

Anonymous VFM #7916 June 29, 2016 4:54 PM  

Ahhh, the Dark Lord reads The Saker...

I am well pleased!

Anonymous VFM #7916 June 29, 2016 4:57 PM  

@2

Psh... one guy? You forget Vince Foster and the 46 other people who "died at very convenient times".

Anonymous meh June 29, 2016 5:10 PM  

No need to intervene to fix Ukraine or Syria, because breaking them IS the plan. We want chaos, not order.

Blogger Positive Dennis June 29, 2016 5:15 PM  

As my wife's father is Ukrainian, and she is Russian so things look a lot different to her. She no longer is Classmate (Russian Facebook) friends with her Ukrainian cousins, Russian families take such ties more seriously than Americans do.

The chaos in the Ukrainian is for Ukrainians focused on Putin. They do not have a clue who their masters really are.

For those interested in my blog perspectives on Russia, click here

http://www.prophecypodcast.com/journal/tag/russia

Blogger Snidely Whiplash June 29, 2016 5:18 PM  

Cue Quartermaster in
5.......4.......3.......

Blogger Cataline Sergius June 29, 2016 5:20 PM  

The Ukraine Crisis also brings up an intriguing strategic dimension.

The Poles leaked something interesting recently and they aren't the first to do it.

That the EU wants to dissolve all of the standing armies of it's members and create one EU Military.

While I think that only a EU bureaucrat could convince himself that this was a good idea, (*its not even a functional idea, forget about good*) this would give us the perfect excuse to bail out of NATO.

At this point NATO is the bastard child of political inconvenience and historical inertia. It has no other purpose than to drag the US into conflicts in Eur-Asia.

Any American strategic needs are best served by individual treaties and we don't...as yet...have one with the EU.

In theory they don't need us. In practice a unified EU military...

"The skilled French Rider atop the steady German horse?"

Ha Ha Ha (*gasp...wheez*) Ha Ha Ha

Blogger Snidely Whiplash June 29, 2016 5:23 PM  

Cataline Sergius wrote:"The skilled French Rider atop the steady German horse..."
"killed the Pole and stole his land."

Blogger Alexandros HoMegas June 29, 2016 5:25 PM  

"thought we were gonna get along great with Russia once GWB was gone?"

There was rift between GWB and the Neocons especially after his re-election, the Neocons wanted a invasion of Syria and Iran, and more conflict with Russia with GWB refused after being full with Iraq.

Obama for its "bad relation" with Israel he has being more Neocon friendly, the policy against Russia and Syria, the only exception is Iran.

Blogger Jim June 29, 2016 5:28 PM  

@2

I was thinking some where along the lines of President Trump granting a pass for the Russians to come over and get the Big O and all his top level admins past and present and take them back to Moscow for whatever purposes they would like.

Blogger Jim June 29, 2016 5:30 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Anonymous Alexander June 29, 2016 5:37 PM  

I'm actually from Ukraine. Specifically, one of the Eastern regions. We've seen a lot of unrest here and undoubtedly are going to see more. What Positive Dennis wrote is only partially true, though - the "CIA spies" and "Americans controlling Poroshenko" are actually anecdotes/memes around here. Yeah, ones that neo-nazies link on their facebook accounts. Whereas Russians talk about it seriously (as they should), but go overboard with completely denying any and all involvement of anything Russian in the unfolding events
Which creates an interesting situation: you have the huge majority of folks entirely unwilling to engage in any political conversation, whereas at the same time a lot of these people deeply hate one another over ideological drivel that they saw on TV. The government also rides the fear-mongering waves to increase regulation, fund the army, station unslettling amounts of troops in peaceful cities and so on. They basically make the situation worse in any way they can, hoping to run off with bags of cash once the ship goes down
Ukraine seems to have gone out of the spotlight many months ago. I generally get worried when it shows up in the mainstream, pretty bad sign.

Anonymous Rolf June 29, 2016 5:38 PM  

Trump could talk to Putin, cut a deal with radical islam and Chinese manufacturing as the common enemies, and *poof* - CoDominium.

There are worse outcomes.

Anonymous fred June 29, 2016 5:43 PM  

"No need to intervene to fix Ukraine or Syria, because breaking them IS the plan. We want chaos, not order."

(((We))) want chaos, not order.

FIFY

Anonymous Gen. Kong June 29, 2016 6:05 PM  

If the LQ is 'erected' the great dung-throne in November, a war in Ukraine will certainly be started. Sadly, far too many Ukrainians are stupid enough to fall for it. The truly evil empire is headquartered in Sodom-on-Potomac, not Moscow.

Blogger J Van Stry June 29, 2016 6:08 PM  

You'd think people would know by now that any guarantee of US support or protection is always one democrat away from being abandoned.

Blogger Alexander June 29, 2016 6:09 PM  

Note that Ukraine Alexander is not The Alexander.

Anonymous andon June 29, 2016 6:12 PM  

I hear Ukraine has beautiful women

Anonymous rienzi June 29, 2016 6:23 PM  

We could always turn (((Ms. Nuland))) over to the Ukrainians to do with as they choose, preferably a faction which has really suffered due to her actions. She's at least as guilty of "crimes against humanity" as a good portion of those in the dock at Nuremberg.

Time to let these tinpot would-be commissars that they can just as easily be the body in the ditch. Pour encourager les autres.

Anonymous Alexander from Ukraine June 29, 2016 6:32 PM  

@rienzi - frankly, I have reason to believe they would just sell her off to the highest bidder before any justice can be served. There's an old Slavic anecdote, which goes something like this - "What do you call two Ukrainians?" - "A partisan squad" - "And what do you call three?" - "A partisan squad with a traitor"

Anonymous cheddarman June 29, 2016 6:51 PM  

I wonder if the Slavs will realize their true enemy is the money power in the west

Blogger Arthur Isaac June 29, 2016 7:09 PM  

Notice how Ukraine policy gets dumped on the feet of (((Noodleman))) and how both Pantsuit and 0bsma get passes on foreign policy issues? What genius.

Blogger LP9 Solidified in Gold! Rin Integra June 29, 2016 7:15 PM  

By Fall, only to cause further problems, America will enter Ukraine to further ruin relations with Russia, meanwhile, Pres Alpha Putin observes a group of foreign embarrassments cause him to work towards ties with China or elsewhere. Did anyone note Putin 's statement on the Brexit - it was excellent.

Blogger Arthur Isaac June 29, 2016 7:23 PM  

(((Nudelman)))

Blogger ZhukovG June 29, 2016 7:42 PM  

The United States was stupid if it thought for a moment that it could deny Russia her Black Sea Fleet HQ. And the secession of Crimea from Ukraine and accession to Russia were completely predictable. Crimea has wanted to return to Russia since 1991 if not since the 1954.

Blogger Nick S June 29, 2016 8:09 PM  

I don't think handing Putin a ready-made justification is a wise strategy. I'm guessing he would jump at the chance to defend/liberate the AUOC-MP.

Blogger Gaiseric June 29, 2016 8:15 PM  

I can't for the life of me understand what American interest-- vital or trivial either one-- America has in the Ukraine. The only interest I have is archaeological and hardly anyone shares that perspective.

And even then worrying about the homeland of my Yamnaya forefathers is a very strange affectation and whim. For everyone else, they probably don't know really what the difference between the Russians and Ukrainians is anyway.

Blogger Gaiseric June 29, 2016 8:16 PM  

I can't for the life of me understand what American interest-- vital or trivial either one-- America has in the Ukraine. The only interest I have is archaeological and hardly anyone shares that perspective.

And even then worrying about the homeland of my Yamnaya forefathers is a very strange affectation and whim. For everyone else, they probably don't know really what the difference between the Russians and Ukrainians is anyway.

Blogger praetorian June 29, 2016 8:35 PM  

Why are you poking the bear?

STOP POKING THE BEAR.

Anonymous Takin' a Look June 29, 2016 8:39 PM  

OT- please, righteous Jews; those of you who go "if it's good for the Jews, it better be good for the Gentiles too" you need to DO SOMETHING!!!

This James (((Traub))) fellow is a maniac!!! He's gonna get you all killed! I saw an article a few days ago in Haaretz where jews are openly boasting that they have _always_ forced open borders since time immemorial to hide themselves in their host nations.

Is Kek driving your kin mad? This is insanity.

Blogger praetorian June 29, 2016 8:41 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger praetorian June 29, 2016 8:43 PM  

"killed the Pole and stole his land."

Demonstrating the incredible historical ignorance of those educated in the United States public schools, I only recently learned that after WW2, Russia took a huge chunk of Poland and, to make up for it, gave a huge chunk of Germany to Poland.

I'm sure most of the Ilk is far more historically literate than I am, but in case you didn't know about this, here's the wikipedia article

MFW I wonder what else I wasn't told about WW2...

Blogger praetorian June 29, 2016 8:45 PM  

The James Traub article is truly insane.

Anonymous fred June 29, 2016 8:56 PM  

"I can't for the life of me understand what American interest-- vital or trivial either one-- America has in the Ukraine."

There is no American interest; but there is certainly an (((American))) one.

Ukraine is one of the last White countries that is still overwhelmingly White. If Ukraine can be coaxed, prodded, or forced into the loving clutches of the EU, it will soon find itself up its chin in the wonders of Diversity. And then all those beautiful white Ukrainian women will be drowning in a sea of Arabs, Africans, Pakistanis, and assorted rapeugees. The long, slow, bleedout will begin, and in a few generations.... no more Whitey.

That is the (((intended))) endgame. That's what they're so tenacious about.

Anonymous Takin' a Look June 29, 2016 8:57 PM  

@ Praetorian

Yes it is. I'm agog over it.

Anonymous TheP6 June 29, 2016 8:58 PM  

Read the full article. Ok, I will not say that "destroy it, to save it" is not a possible scenario and yeah, I agree that situation in Ukraine is shit (I do not agree about:
1) "elections did take place, but they were anything but free." According to what? Just curious.
2) "the neo-Nazis are now more influential than ever". It is funny, because not even one nationalistic political party is present in parliament. Nationalistic, not neo-nazis. So how he can say about influence?).

The whole religious war is just silly. First, there are no reason for that. Ukrainians are religious, but not to such extend. Second, there is no propaganda in that matter. In Ukraine media did not even rised religious question for months.

"The initial plan was to make the Ukraine a sort of “black hole” which would suck in all the economic, political, and military resources of Russia, ideally by having Russia occupying the Donbass."
Well, if that is true, then why US let the EU meddling in with Minsk Agreements? The point of those Agreements is to reintegrate Donbass back to Ukraine and legalizing part of terrorist groups there and make Russian forces to leave (and of course, in reality, Ukraine should do its part regardless of what Russia will do). So if you want Russia to occupy Donbass, why you would push or let to push such agreements? Wouldn't US then just try "to froze" conflict then? Like encourange Ukraine to make borders with occupied territories of Donbass, making Ukraine to concentrate on internal problems?

Blogger Elder Son June 29, 2016 9:05 PM  

Still waiting for those Jen Psaki YouTube and Facebook videos.

Hell, you really do the State Dept. and USNATO briefings, and suck it all in as gospel truth. Amazing.

Blogger Elder Son June 29, 2016 9:10 PM  

The whole point of USNATO meddling in Ukraine, was a preemptive attempt to eliminate Russia's Black Sea Fleet which is its gate way to the Mediterranean Sea AND Syria. Everything else, if it has worked, would have been a bonus. Period. Generals.

Blogger Elder Son June 29, 2016 9:12 PM  

P.S. Get a map from the Arabian Sea all the way up to the Baltic Sea. Now take all the geo-political-econimic hub-bub and figure it out.

Anonymous andon June 29, 2016 9:13 PM  

39. Anonymous fred June 29, 2016 8:56 PM
"I can't for the life of me understand what American interest-- vital or trivial either one-- America has in the Ukraine."

There is no American interest; but there is certainly an (((American))) one.

Ukraine is one of the last White countries that is still overwhelmingly White. If Ukraine can be coaxed, prodded, or forced into the loving clutches of the EU, it will soon find itself up its chin in the wonders of Diversity. And then all those beautiful white Ukrainian women will be drowning in a sea of Arabs, Africans, Pakistanis, and assorted rapeugees. The long, slow, bleedout will begin, and in a few generations.... no more Whitey.

That is the (((intended))) endgame. That's what they're so tenacious about.


I bet that's it. current occupant doesn't give a damn about East vs West, only about destroying the U.S. and the white race. prob the same for soros

Anonymous Tyr's Disciple June 29, 2016 9:38 PM  

Empowering the Neo-Nazi militias in the West was always a risky strategy. If it backfires then it turns the Ukrainians against the West and back into the welcoming arms of Russia, and make no mistake, Russia would gladly welcome their Ukrainian brothers back into the fold.

Make no mistake. The ethnic hate flows one way. Russia has welcomed over a million Ukrainian refugees into the country. Russians see the Ukrainians as misguided children. There's plenty of hate among the pro-Russians but it is largely anti-regime, not anti-Ukrainian.

Blogger Phillip George June 29, 2016 10:12 PM  

.....like many in the Pentagon, now realize that ISIS is a covert mercenary army started by Israel and the CIA and supported by the Saudis, Turkey, NATO and other smaller nations. This knowledge is now spreading across America to the masses and American support for more Mideast wars fought for Israel, the CIA, and Israeli-American “Israel-first” Dual Citizens in the Pentagon and inside the Beltway is now quickly waning.

just quoting this line from Preston James.
Proxy wars have been a fools game. If an average Ukrainian realizes they have been played for fools - the country might save itself from NGOs, think tanks, advisers - hopefully lamp-posting many before they can get to their private jets/ shredding machines and before they can utter the words, diplomatic immunity.

Blogger EscapeVelocity June 29, 2016 10:15 PM  

It's time to ditch NATO and form a European Christian nation state alliance which includes Russia, excluded Turkey.

OpenID luciussomesuch June 29, 2016 10:37 PM  

"The whole point of USNATO meddling in Ukraine, was a preemptive attempt to eliminate Russia's Black Sea Fleet which is its gate way to the Mediterranean Sea AND Syria. Everything else, if it has worked, would have been a bonus. Period. Generals."

--No. The Black Sea Fleet is the weakest of Russia's four; and though Kremlin planning may be for its modernization to put it ahead of the Baltic at no. 3, it would still only then amount to a half dozen modern frigates and a comparable number of Kilo subs. Ironically, Egypt inherits Putin's Mistral-class helicopter carrier/assault ships, but Egypt and Turkey each have fleets which, on paper, are well-matched against the projected Black Sea fleet of the 2020s, let alone the straw force it is today.

This is really race war against Russia AND Ukraine.

Blogger Billy Ray June 29, 2016 10:44 PM  

you all act so smart but this article like so many other on this site and other sites is basically (name a place) it is (broken/black hole / quagmire) and it is all the fault of the US. And only the US,maybe with a little help from EU and Russia is never ever involved or shares blame. give me a break with the kindergarten simplicity.

Anonymous Jack Amok June 29, 2016 10:53 PM  

The tooth paste is already out of that tube.

Yeah... (scratches back of neck)... turns out that wasn't toothpaste...

Trump could talk to Putin, cut a deal with radical islam and Chinese manufacturing as the common enemies, and *poof* - CoDominium.

Trump is our Crazy Eddie.

As far as Ukraine goes, we have an active Uke expat community over here lobbying against the Russians. When the wall fell, I think the pro-Russian Ukes emigrated to Russia, the anti-Russian ones emigrated to the US, and the pro-Uke ones... well, assuming such a thing exists, I think they just got drunk out of despair.

Blogger Phillip George June 29, 2016 10:55 PM  

just remember the independent scientific investigation into Flight 017.
yeah, right. Lots of newspaper headlines on clear findings, just read the newspapers. LOL.

just like MH 370, like Egypt Air 804. Just like MetroJet 9268 over Egypt. Who exactly owned and operated security at Sharm el Sheikh?

good people, actually innocent people, died on flight 017.

No more free Wacos.

Philosophically what exactly is the different between a Rabbinical f...k all Goy to an Islamic f....k all infidels to a satanist's f....k anything human.

Anonymous Hezekiah Garrett June 29, 2016 10:56 PM  

@50 Judging from your syntax and diction, I will bow to your superior knowledge and experience with kindergarten simplicity.

Blogger ZhukovG June 29, 2016 10:56 PM  

@50 We are discussing the situation in Ukraine. Which, if you were paying attention at all was clearly a case of US meddling. The US officials involved even completely botched keeping their involvement hidden, literally broadcasting it over unsecured communications.

Blogger Phillip George June 29, 2016 11:02 PM  

remember the story, a few rebels with basic training got a hold of a BUK missile and shot down a commercial plane at 33,000 feet to show 'em how bad ass rebel they are.

Like rebels with BUK stuff read about Saddam Husseins bad ass WMDs and thought "we can do this"

like platinum jewelry on a rapper - it's all real. yeah Right.

Blogger Elder Son June 29, 2016 11:27 PM  

No. The Black Sea Fleet = Mediterranean Sea = Syria. (Not to mention Turkey).

We're not talking WWIII here. Yet.

I am sure you can tell us why USNATO-DoD-StateDept. wants the whole world to believe that the invasion of Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania is imminent, by Russia, any time now, just around the corner, pretty soon?

And hey! Let's not forget the invasion of Georgia, just because, by Russia, that keeps popping up here and there, because Russia just likes to invade its neighbors for no other reason than?

Man, you need to keep up with the propaganda machine. General.

OpenID luciussomesuch June 29, 2016 11:36 PM  

Elder "General" Son, you make little sense.

The point is, the Black Sea Fleet is an innocuous fleet in being, no real "threat" to (((anyone))). Even Steve Sailer seems to think the words "Black Sea Fleet" have a sufficiently ominous ring to them that the Pentagon might imagine it to comprise some globe-threatening armada. Not true.

Come to think of it, wasn't the Admiral Kuznetsov carrier deployed to the Syrian arena? From the NORTHERN FLEET? Ah yes, that would be why its flotilla graced the webpages of the Daily Mail as they sailed through the Channel.

If you, Elder Son, are a pro-Putinist, congratulations. I certainly am. However, your smartypants babble about the Black Sea Fleet as though it were the geopolitical key to control of the Mediterranean is idiotic. (((Neocons))) want to carve up Syria and deracinate Ukraine. These are vast, racist ambitions which far transcend the fate of the mere fleet-in-being Russia keeps in the Black Sea.

Blogger Elder Son June 30, 2016 12:47 AM  

It's not just the Black Sea Fleet they are after. But these things take baby steps. We just don't want to run right into WWIII. And yes, like all Russian Fleets, USNATO and State Dept. meddling in Ukraine was an attempt to eliminate the Fleet in Crimea. Even Putin knows and admits it.

Russia Black Sea Fleet Preparing To Send Warships To Syria and etc., etc., etc. Actually, as far back as 2006, Russia was thinking about moving its BSF to Tartus. Anyhow.

You're still thinking mass conflagration. So Russia brought in ships from another Fleet? So. We're not talking about CONTROL of the Mediterranean when you think Putin/BSF/Syria.

USNATO has no intention of carving up Syria. But assimilating it into UN region 7, Turkey as it head, of the globalists glorious NWO, along with the other non-integrating gaps of the ME/Persia.

All this will eventually lead to a conflagration. The people need to be brought to their knees to accept, peace in our time. It's all jockeying for position as of now.

Short-sighted and far-sighted?

Blogger Tom Kratman June 30, 2016 12:59 AM  

I am unconvinced that either State or the Agency can be controlled, short of a massive purge (by which i mean firing squads, not just firing).

Blogger Tom Kratman June 30, 2016 12:59 AM  

I am unconvinced that either State or the Agency can be controlled, short of a massive purge (by which i mean firing squads, not just firing).

Blogger Snidely Whiplash June 30, 2016 1:08 AM  

praetorian wrote:Demonstrating the incredible historical ignorance of those educated in the United States public schools, I only recently learned that after WW2, Russia took a huge chunk of Poland and, to make up for it, gave a huge chunk of Germany to Poland

Speaking of incredible historical ignorance, when was the last time that France and (substantial parts of) Germany were allied militarily, Since that was the context of the comment?

History did not start in 1938

Blogger Sherwood family June 30, 2016 1:20 AM  

I work at State and have long believed that the bureaucracy is going to have to be utterly crushed by the next President and the foreign policy apparatus gutted if he is going to be able to make headway toward a non interventionist policy that favors the US on trade.

If you look at most of the operating programs administered by State they are leftovers from the Cold War shined up for reuse to try to make the Islamic world like us. The approach in general is fundamentally incoherent but it has bureaucratic inertia and nobody has done anything to try to reframe US approaches at both strategic and tactical levels I.e. You can change strategy at the NSC but unless the bureaucrats that are supposed to make it a reality are brought into line you get the same programs deployed under different names to deal with foreign policy initiatives for which they are totally unsuited.

Blogger Sherwood family June 30, 2016 1:25 AM  

The last truly coherent policy document produced by State at a strategic level was George Kennan's Long Telegram which outlined the rudiments of a containment strategy for use against the Soviet Union. It was a sound strategy but that telegram only got sent back to headquarters because Kennan's Ambassador was out of town and could not stop him. While State Dept likes to claim that it is a tiny bureaucracy (and it is compared with DOD) it is still huge and has massive numbers of people working on projects and programs that are of no tangible benefit to the US tax payer but which, due to the vagaries of Congress we still have to implement.

Blogger Phillip George June 30, 2016 1:28 AM  

Napoleon got a lot of it, but Germany wasn't Germany. Upper and Lower etc. Prussia, Austria etc. Maybe search for pre Martin Luther alliances?
I suppose everyone has seen this by now:
http://thedockyards.com/genetic-maps-of-europe/

Blogger Snidely Whiplash June 30, 2016 1:44 AM  

Napoleon never tried to claim part of Poland. In fact, Polish soldiers volunteered for Napoleon's army to fight the (other) Emperor.
Look up the 7 years war, of which the French and Indian war was a small part. France and most of Germany vs Prussia. England came in on either side, as the opportunity presented itself, thus coining the phrase "Perfidious Albion".
Think of it as an interlude between the utter madness of the 30 years war and the utter madness of the French Revolution and the Napoleonic Wars.

King Frederick of Prussia amazed the world by holding off the French and Germans and Austrians and Russians for 7 years despite being out-manned and out-gunned.
Through it all, Louis was continually trying to take part of Poland for one of his younger sons.

Blogger Shimshon June 30, 2016 1:53 AM  

Donald Trump can reasonably be considered at least a mild antiwar candidate, despite some (rhetorical) bluster. Nonetheless, the left will likely vote in lockstep for Hillary, the most warmongering candidate in decades, if ever.

However, Bernie may still be a wildcard. He has, as far as I know, not yet conceded the race (seriously, that's hilarious). I doubt he'd do a third party run, but he could still play the spoiler. Bernie likely has more positions in common with Trump than Hillary. It's not as if President Trump is going to fight on issues like abortion and LGBQTXXX.

Thoughts on this?

Blogger Sherwood family June 30, 2016 2:06 AM  

There does seem to be cross over between some Trump and Bernie stands. A recent speech by Trump try to make that connection though Bernie tried to distance himself in an op Ed the other day. I do not know if a Trump can co opt enough over Bernie's positions to make dent but he seems to be trying.

Blogger VFM #7634 June 30, 2016 2:22 AM  

@67 Sherwood family

For Bernie and his supporters, political correctness trumps all other considerations. That's why they're all lining up behind Hillary, even though they have much more in common with Trump.

Blogger Ultimus Americanus June 30, 2016 2:48 AM  

Bernie's support is overwhelmingly white. For that reason alone, they will defect to Trump in significant numbers after this bloody summer.

Blogger Neanderserk June 30, 2016 3:41 AM  

" once President Trump is able to put the leash on the foreign policy lunatics who still think they can control the world through their ever-judicious interventions."

It would be interesting to hear your thoughts on whether and to what degree a president in general, and President Trump in particular, is able to do that. Blog.jim.com has opined that something like a presidential coup is necessary to counter the permanent bureaucracy.

I for one say that if we're going to import South America, we may as well bring banana republicanism and las castas along with the hot tortillas. It's time to take those Mexican flags seriously.

Anonymous Aaron June 30, 2016 4:18 AM  

The US has an obvious and clear interest in the Ukraine. Power and influence for their own sakes. That's why empires become empires - for more power, influence, and wealth, with no end in sight.

It's the underlying drive behind all empires and it's why they all collapse within about 300 years or so, as shown by Sir John Glubb in his excellent study of empires.

I'm surprised readers of Vox Day find the drive to power for its own sake hard to understand. Its the essence of "alpha".

"As above, so below" as the medieval alchemists liked to say, the macrocosm is reflected in the microcosm. Just as nations ruled by the drive for power, influence, and wealth, destroy themselves and make their lives miserable, so do individuals whose lives are ruled by the drive to be "alpha".

Martin can Creveld, a fantastic and insightful writer, has a wonderful description of the dismal plight of the "alpha" in his excellent book on women. He describes the alpha as living a lonely and gloomy existence bereft of friends, eternally guarding his hard won position, his emotional life ruled be jealousy, rage, aggression.

Creveld, of course, doesn't doubt that such a life is worth the sacrifice - as gifted a thinker as he is, he cannot question his own premises. That takes not just intelligence but an aptitude for metacognition, which is rarer than high intelligence.

It is intesting to see that that many here are quite clear eyed about the futility of "more power for its own sake" as a way of life for nations.

I find that fact cheering.



Blogger Shimshon June 30, 2016 4:29 AM  

"Its the essence of "alpha"."

Hardly.

"The alpha is the tall, good-looking guy who is the center of both male and female attention...All the women are attracted to him, while all the men want to be him, or at least be his friend."

He doesn't seek power. Power is GIVEN to him.

Anonymous artaud June 30, 2016 4:33 AM  

"History did not start in 1938"

Actually, demographically speaking, for all practical intents and purposes, history will henceforth be understood to have begun in 2008, with the miraculous birth in a humble bathhouse of Saint Barack the Wrecker of Civilizations.

Anonymous Aaron June 30, 2016 4:38 AM  

Shimshon, why is Vox running a blog counseling men on how to act alpha if it's just a function of good looks and height?

Everyone knows alpha is a function of behavior, wealth, and acquired status.

Vox's blog is called Alpha Game, not "you're fucked if you aren't good looking and tall".

What few are willing to concede is the emptiness of the the alpha life. But tjat many can see this on the national level is indeed cause for optimism.

Blogger residentMoron June 30, 2016 5:11 AM  

@Neandeserk

I believe that Generals are necessary but they don't run the army. Sergeants and colonels do.

That's why the president who is doing what the establishment wants can do literally anything, while the president opposing the establishment can do almost nothing.

Until we come to a crisis wherein the bureaucracy faces a clear choice between doing their jobs and hanging from a lamppost, that's how it is.

I could be wrong, of course.

Blogger Shimshon June 30, 2016 5:13 AM  

First, I don't know that Vox is running around doing anything of the kind. Second, just because you can change your behavior to act more Alpha doesn't mean you are motivated to do so in pursuit of power.

You are trolling, and badly.

Blogger Phillip George June 30, 2016 5:31 AM  

many can see this on the national level
many being more than three?
"the big short" was an interesting film. The figures in it suggest only a dozen people saw the 2008 financial crash before it happened.

The Chief Rabbi of Ukraine seems to have backed Poroshenko heavily/ correct?

The Jewish Daily Forward newspaper has indicated that Poroshenko is at least half Jewish, and it now seems that Ukraine will get a Jewish president to go along with the its Jewish prime minister, Arseniy Yatsenyuk.

This all seems a strange turn of events for a country that just went through a violent “revolution”
with muscle-power supplied by elements described by both Russian and American leaders
as neo-Nazi. While Svoboda and Right Sector street fighters may be the engine of this
revolution, the steering wheel appears to be in the hands of U.S. Assistant Secretary
of State Victoria Nuland and other Jewish tribalists.


but what would anyone know about family ties?

Anonymous Aaron June 30, 2016 5:37 AM  

Shimshon, so now you concede it is about behavior and not just good looks and height. Kind of a flip flop, no?

Alpha is about behaving in ways that project and claim power, as well as efforts to acquire it in the real world thru wealth and status.

You're utterly clueless and confused about blogs you read. Yeah, I'm trolling, because you don't understand basic concepts discussed on this blog.

Blogger Shimshon June 30, 2016 5:43 AM  

Aaron the troll, please point where I said it wasn't about behavior? I NEVER said that. Projecting power (dominance, really) is not the same as seeking power. You are the one conflating behavior and motivation, not me.

Blogger Stephen Davenport June 30, 2016 6:04 AM  

Who says we have to get militarily involved in the Ukraine. Whether you like it or not the Ukraine is a sovereign nation with elections. Russia wronged them and everyone knows it. If Russia could beat the Ukrainians they would have done it but they didn't, the Ukrainians fought hard and held them to a standstill. This article is ridiculous and sound like a bunch of pussies because of the big Russian bear { a myth by the way). Help the Ukrainians the best you can, given them some defensive weapons and aid. We do not have to send troops, they can take care of themselves.

Anonymous Aaron June 30, 2016 6:11 AM  

It's right there, in your first comment. So you think denying what's in plain sight is good "rhetoric".

This is what passes for top level argument in America these days.

Anonymous Aaron June 30, 2016 6:16 AM  

So dominating people is not the same as seeking power over them...

When you're in a hole, dude, stop digging.

Anonymous Quartermaster June 30, 2016 6:24 AM  

We aren't involved in Ukraine, and there is no need to get involved. If we send stuff to Ukraine, they can use it themselves. They're willing to fight to defend their own country. There is no need to send troops other than to teach how to use what we send.

Saker is given more attention than he deserves, Frankly. he has no idea what he is talking about in Ukraine.

Russians tried in Kharkov and Odessa, and they got shut down. The Kharkov bunch ran for Russia and is now defunct. In Odessa, most were killed because the tried to fight it out with the locals and the locals saw what Russia had tried in Donbas and wanted nothing to do with it.

Yes, there is corruption in Ukraine. As if there is none in Russia (which is a mafia state) or in Berlin, or Paris, or DC (especially DC).

Blogger Shimshon June 30, 2016 6:24 AM  

My first comment is @66. But you must mean @76.

"Second, just because you can change your behavior to act more Alpha doesn't mean you are motivated to do so in pursuit of power."

I said "project dominance" not dominate people.

Whatever, you're a troll. And intentionally misunderstanding me (or too stupid to be able to). Likely a Gamma (project much?).

Blogger weka June 30, 2016 7:18 AM  

@59I am unconvinced that either State or the Agency can be controlled, short of a massive purge (by which i mean firing squads, not just firing).

Tom, it is not merely the US State Dept. It is the UN (we have an ex Prime Minister there we do not want back, in part because she concentrates so much on correct process nothing gets done, and nothing is better than any UN agenda) and a bunch of self righteous wankers in Brussels.

But getting the USMIL back on US imperial territories from Guam to Diego Garcia is a good start.

@63
The last truly coherent policy document produced by State at a strategic level was George Kennan's Long Telegram which outlined the rudiments of a containment strategy for use against the Soviet Union. It was a sound strategy but that telegram only got sent back to headquarters because Kennan's Ambassador was out of town and could not stop him. While State Dept likes to claim that it is a tiny bureaucracy (and it is compared with DOD) it is still huge and has massive numbers of people working on projects and programs that are of no tangible benefit to the US tax payer but which, due to the vagaries of Congress we still have to implement.

Congress. Ruining the life of whatever it touches. The correct response to a State Department Weenie is to contain him in your capital: PNGing (the Soviets shot instead of expelling) the occasional one who wanders from the reservation, unfortunately, does not improve the herd.

I blame Harvard and Yale, for making fools feel intelligent and immortal, because credentials.

Blogger Ron June 30, 2016 7:34 AM  

@Shimshon

Shimshon, he's done nothing to you that you should insult him like that. You should apologize to him.

Blogger FALPhil June 30, 2016 7:39 AM  

@31 Nick S
I don't think handing Putin a ready-made justification is a wise strategy. I'm guessing he would jump at the chance to defend/liberate the AUOC-MP.

WE DON'T CARE.

Blogger Neanderserk June 30, 2016 8:30 AM  

If you claim that all alphas are evil, expect to get amogged.

"The trees went forth on a time to anoint a king over them; and they said unto the olive tree, Reign thou over us. But the olive tree said unto them, Should I leave my fatness, wherewith by me they honour God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees? And the trees said to the fig tree, Come thou, and reign over us. But the fig tree said unto them, Should I forsake my sweetness, and my good fruit, and go to be promoted over the trees? Then said the trees unto the vine, Come thou, and reign over us. And the vine said unto them, Should I leave my wine, which cheereth God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees? Then said all the trees unto the bramble, Come thou, and reign over us. And the bramble said unto the trees, If in truth ye anoint me king over you, then come and put your trust in my shadow: and if not, let fire come out of the bramble, and devour the cedars of Lebanon."

Straw man attack incoming in 5, 4, 3...

Blogger Shimshon June 30, 2016 8:34 AM  

@86 He has misquoted or distorted what I've said multiple times. He also threw the first insult. Start nothing...

Blogger Ron June 30, 2016 8:37 AM  

@89 Shimshon

Well, what can I say? You're right. Sorry.

LOL.

Anonymous ZhukovG June 30, 2016 9:13 AM  

Is Ukraine even really a nation?

It is a country, certainly, but is it really a nation? It seems to be little more than a few mutually hostile gangs either attached to various oligarchs or belonging to Pravy Sektor. Every time the ‘government’ has called for a mobilization all it triggers is another wave of emigration to either Poland or Russia. I mean, if you belong to an actual nation, shouldn’t you be willing to fight for it?

Frankly, the only reason Russia hasn’t taken control of the whole country is that Russia can’t afford to fix this ‘sub-saharan Africa in Europe’ mess. Hell, Russia even turned down Lugansk and Donetsk’s request to join the Russian Federation. And those areas, collectively referred to as Novorossiya, represent about the only functioning nation within the borders of the country of Ukraine.

Anonymous BGKB June 30, 2016 9:35 AM  

I for one say that if we're going to import South America, we may as well bring banana republicanism

I see Pinochet helicopter rides in the future.

That's why they're all lining up behind Hillary, even though they have much more in common with Trump.

HilLIARy is even starting to lose the gays. This summer will be bloody enough& TRUMP has shown he is not too cucked to run ads showing it.

I am unconvinced that either State or the Agency can be controlled, short of a massive purge (by which i mean firing squads, not just firing).

TRUMP will hold auctions for tickets to be on firing squads. It will be more popular than the SHOT SHOW, he might even let people rent full autos for it. I could see him changing all state executions to firing squads with family members getting one ticket and the rest of positions auctioned off.

Anonymous BGKB June 30, 2016 9:36 AM  

change: victim family members getting one ticket

Blogger Alexandros June 30, 2016 6:10 PM  

tricking Orthodox into fighting Orthodox; truly the United States is the Evil Empire.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash June 30, 2016 7:35 PM  

tricking Orthodox into fighting Orthodox; truly the United States is the Evil Empire.

It's not like some weren't already slavering at the thought of killing the other. It would not be the 1st time, nor the last.
Not that I'm crowing. We have the 30 years war on our side.

Blogger tz June 30, 2016 11:36 PM  

meanwhile, NRcruise.com is apparently going to go out to sea with most of the cucks aboard just after the election.
The B ark sets sail.
Anyone have a spare exocet?

Blogger Akulkis July 01, 2016 4:16 AM  

@23

After viewing photos of many Ukrainian and Russian women... most Ukranian women have decent body dimensions, but rather plain-jane faces (not terrible, but not great, either.) Russian women tend to be smoking hot.

Example -- American guys were going gaga about Anna Kournikova -- but in Saint Petersburg, she would an absolute dog.... like 3/10 on the local scale.

Anonymous jOHN MOSBY July 01, 2016 9:17 PM  

"Everyone knows alpha is a function of behavior, wealth, and acquired status."
The first one you are right. The next two you are hopelessly wrong.
You can be the most brokedick fuck going, and still be Alpha.
You can have no mun, and still get laid. It just takes skillz, and most betas, and the classes below them to get it , so they loses out to go home to fap furiously in front of da skreen saying loudly " I'm not a loser, I'mo show dat bitch !

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