ALL BLOG POSTS AND COMMENTS COPYRIGHT (C) 2003-2016 VOX DAY. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. REPRODUCTION WITHOUT WRITTEN PERMISSION IS EXPRESSLY PROHIBITED.

Saturday, June 11, 2016

No more Star Citizen refunds

Derek Smart correctly anticipated Star Citizen's new Terms of Service:
I have been making a lot of noise about the ToS and the fact that RSI/CIG are required to provide refunds and financial accountability to backers for failure to deliver the promised game, 18 months from the expiration Feb 2015 ToS v1.2. Those clauses triggered on May 31st, 2016.

I wrote about that extensively:

A lot of Shitizens said I was wrong, that I didn't understand it, blah, blah, blah. Yet, with the latest 2.4 patch disaster hurriedly pushed to live (conveniently ahead of E3 which they recently backed out of attending), they have done precisely as I said they would.

They released a new ToS. And if your scam alarm bells aren't going off already, well, you may be suffering from Sunk Cost Fallacy.

And it came to pass that the new June 2016 ToS has been released with the latest 2.4 "patch" going live. I am working on a blog post for it; but the highlights are:

- You can't sue them - like ever
- Under no obligation to deliver anything - like ever. Oh and delivery date and clause removed
- No refunds - for any reason - like ever
- Can ban your account - for any reason - delete it, and not refund you

In the meantime, if you ever want legal recourse, do NOT download the 2.4 patch and do NOT do ANYTHING on their site and/or services in which you are required to agree to this new ToS.
That sounds like a company with tremendous faith in its own offerings, doesn't it?

Labels:

75 Comments:

Blogger Markku June 11, 2016 11:19 AM  

In my teens I used to follow a few Rapture datesetters. Not very seriously, but still with some genuine interest. This is hilariously similar. I'm going to play Rapture bingo with the excuses.

Blogger Markku June 11, 2016 11:25 AM  

You'd think that when the date comes and goes, it would settle the issue and everybody would pack up and go home ashamed. Never does. Never, ever, does.

Anonymous Anonymous June 11, 2016 11:25 AM  

Haha, rapture bingo?

Pastor miscalculated
Satan tricked me
God changed his ToS
It occurred but was invisible
There's none righteous no not one
You didn't make the cut

E

Blogger Markku June 11, 2016 11:28 AM  

Anonymous, whose comment got hidden because "Anonymous": Use the Name/URL feature if you don't want to use a social media profile. Just type in any other name than Anonymous

Blogger bob k. mando June 11, 2016 11:34 AM  

dude, you are just a HATER. maybe if you were producing anything yourself you wouldn't be so obviously jealous of a developer who so clearly more accomplished than you.

Anonymous FP June 11, 2016 11:37 AM  

I'm shocked. Not really. That new space-sim/homeworld type game House of the Rising Sun looks pretty good though. Single player only in early access but already set to work with VR devices.

Blogger bob k. mando June 11, 2016 11:38 AM  

comment got "hidden", indeed.

that's really weird that you're actually loading the post to the screen and then having the html obscure it.

so it turns out that i can still see that if i simply halt the page load ...


Haha, rapture bingo?

Pastor miscalculated
Satan tricked me
God changed his ToS
It occurred but was invisible
There's none righteous no not one
You didn't make the cut

E

Blogger sconzey June 11, 2016 11:50 AM  

According to this Quora answer, in some common-law jurisdictions, 'unreasonable' Terms of Service can be rewritten or overruled by a court. I'd be interested to watch that class-action.

Blogger GK Chesterton June 11, 2016 11:55 AM  

I imagine "not ever getting what you paid for" could be easily held as "unreasonable".

Anonymous Cinco June 11, 2016 12:03 PM  

OT: What exactly is the difference between being brainwashed and just plain old dedication to a cause?

Three girls cover up sex attack on themselves to avoid discriminating against migrants...

Blogger Lazarus June 11, 2016 12:17 PM  

Security alert??

got this site off cbc from some online security expert, seems like a good way to check if your online accts and email are possibly compromised...

https://haveibeenpwned.com/

It says I have been breached under Lazarus. Me email accts are ok though.

Thing is, I only use "lazarus" here.

Anonymous VFM #6306 June 11, 2016 12:22 PM  

Jonestown Citizen.

I just hope we get a dead congressman out of this one.

Blogger Alexander Thompson June 11, 2016 12:23 PM  

Haven't terms of services been shown to have no real legal standing?

Blogger Giuseppe The Kurgan June 11, 2016 12:24 PM  

Sounds legit. Where can I send my $40,000 for the latest, greatest, neverwere?
(calling it vapourware would be insulting to water)

Blogger Leandro Novaes June 11, 2016 12:28 PM  

@13 Try No Man's Sky, although to be fair, the guy has demonstrated that they can deliver in the past.

Blogger Markku June 11, 2016 12:29 PM  

that's really weird that you're actually loading the post to the screen and then having the html obscure it.

The component that actually loads the comments is Google's service and it's a black box to us.

Blogger The Z Blog June 11, 2016 12:34 PM  

Markku, there was a study of this way back in the olden thymes. When Prophesy Fails is the landmark study of a UFO cult: http://tinyurl.com/znhtar7

It applies well to all Utopian movements, including the Cult of Modern Liberalism.

Blogger Megalomaniacal, Misogynist, Racist, Islamophobic, Ableist, Transphobic Hellhound June 11, 2016 12:38 PM  

Maybe, if we all send in $50K each, we can save the day and all those people won't lose their money!

Blogger Megalomaniacal, Misogynist, Racist, Islamophobic, Ableist, Transphobic Hellhound June 11, 2016 12:40 PM  

Jesus - no one knows the day or hour

goofballs - he's coming at exactly this date and time.

It's a guarantee he won't be coming when they say he is, isn't it?

Blogger Markku June 11, 2016 12:41 PM  

It's a guarantee he won't be coming when they say he is, isn't it?

But what if he comes precisely then, because it's when you don't think he's coming, because some people think he's coming?

Blogger Sentient Spud June 11, 2016 12:42 PM  

RSI/CIG should do an IPO.

Blogger Markku June 11, 2016 12:45 PM  

All crowdfunding in a couple of years:

"Dude, don't give them your money until you have the product! Remember Star Citizen?"

Blogger Markku June 11, 2016 12:49 PM  

Watch this documentary and you'll all understand how this went down

Blogger YIH June 11, 2016 1:25 PM  

As I said, sooner or later the legal system is going to get involved in this mess. Someone is going to (at least attempt) sue, or an state Attorney General on the political make is going to open an investigation. At that point, Kickstarter is also going to start asking questions of them - to keep themselves out of the line of fire.
I do not believe this was a scam from day 1, I believe it began honestly. Then the combination of ever-expanding vision and being awash in cash changed things.
This whole thing smells like many of the 'dot coms' that crashed and burned in '00-'01, lots of money, lots of money being spent in questionable ways, (parties, promotions, ect.) but when source funding dried up, (and it's going to happen here, either disillusioned ''investors'' or Kickstarter pulls the rug out from under them) it's going to resemble the fake Rock Ridge from Blazing Saddles.

Blogger bob k. mando June 11, 2016 1:32 PM  

19. Markku June 11, 2016 12:41 PM
But what if he comes precisely then, because it's when you don't think he's coming, because some people think he's coming?



tricksy, tricksy little Markku.

the category is not "when do *I* not think he returns", the category is "NO ONE ( not even Jesus ) knows when he will return". only the Father knows.

therefore, any man who *claims* to know the day of the return has elevated himself ABOVE Christ to, at a minimum, a level of holiness between the Son and the Father and quite possibly co-equal or superior too the Father.

do you really want to take the religious advice of that kind of a megalomaniac?

that was a fine attempt at bait and switch.


so, anyways, i have discovered that Jews shall be natural allies in the war against the Chuck Tingle ( Ch'Torr? a David Gerrold reference? oh, very nice. ) as they are soft buds who practice a soft way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_qLq74OmEY&feature=youtu.be&t=1m40s

Blogger Keith Glass June 11, 2016 1:33 PM  

I've long since considered the money pledged to be sunk, and nothing will come of it. Since ~ early 2015. . .

Blogger Markku June 11, 2016 1:36 PM  

the category is not "when do *I* not think he returns", the category is "NO ONE ( not even Jesus ) knows when he will return".

Knowledge is justified, true belief. If he comes precisely when they think, but they thought it for the wrong reasons, no one knew.

Blogger bob k. mando June 11, 2016 1:37 PM  

Chuck Tingle has become Truckman, destroyer of worlds.

https://twitter.com/ChuckTingle?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author

Blogger Markku June 11, 2016 1:39 PM  

I'm being facetious of course. That's not really the datesetter argument, it is that (supposed) pre-trib rapture is not the Second Coming and hence Bible doesn't make statements one way or the other, whether it can be known.

Blogger bob k. mando June 11, 2016 1:45 PM  

26. Markku June 11, 2016 1:36 PM
Knowledge is justified, true belief.



pffft.

known to be false since Gettier. take your weak sauce elsewhere.

Blogger WerePuppy June 11, 2016 1:54 PM  

@19 Markku

It's a guarantee he won't be coming when they say he is, isn't it?

But what if he comes precisely then, because it's when you don't think he's coming, because some people think he's coming?
--

Hmm, I have no idea :P

I see these kind of people sometimes, where they don't try and do anything useful because they think the return is nigh. It's kind of an excuse to be lazy for them.

Blogger Ahazuerus June 11, 2016 2:02 PM  

Markku and xyz Hellhound:

I don't know the exact day this thing is going to implode in class action lawsuits and recriminations, shattered dreams and destroyed reputations, but as Jesus might have opined, I know it's not far off.

Blogger bob k. mando June 11, 2016 2:02 PM  

28. Markku June 11, 2016 1:39 PM
That's not really the datesetter argument, it is that (supposed) pre-trib rapture is not the Second Coming



oh ho! so the actual argument is that ... Christ returning is NOT the Return of Christ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HVejEB5uVk

Blogger Snidely Whiplash June 11, 2016 2:04 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash June 11, 2016 2:04 PM  

No-one knows, but someone could predict correctly. Not knowing and being wrong are disjoint states.
"Even a blind pig sometimes finds an acorn."

Blogger WerePuppy June 11, 2016 2:07 PM  

What kind of money have some of the really large contributors been putting into Star Citizen?

Blogger Sentient Spud June 11, 2016 2:12 PM  

@35 This guy spent 30k on ships.

Blogger bob k. mando June 11, 2016 2:16 PM  

Riot-On succeeded because they were led by a Hard Bud who took many butt pounds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0lrIi0ce5E&feature=youtu.be&t=9m50s

Blogger Markku June 11, 2016 2:41 PM  

oh ho! so the actual argument is that ... Christ returning is NOT the Return of Christ?

He comes kind of half-way at pre-trib rapture, and we meet him in the air. He comes just enough to apply all the good Second Coming prophecies to it, but only just not enough to apply all the iffy ones, like not knowing the day nor hour.

I wish I was joking...

Blogger Snidely Whiplash June 11, 2016 2:46 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Ahazuerus June 11, 2016 2:51 PM  

I guess I'd better not touch this one.

Anonymous BGKB June 11, 2016 3:21 PM  

Sounds legit. Where can I send my $40,000 for the latest, greatest, neverwere?

BigGaySteve's Pinochet Helicopter Sim.

goofballs - he's coming at exactly this date and time.

According to SHTFPLAN the world is always ending tomorrow.

Blogger LurkingPuppy June 11, 2016 3:39 PM  

Snidely Whiplash wrote:No-one knows, but someone could predict correctly. Not knowing and being wrong are disjoint states.
Not knowing and being wrong are independent. They are not disjoint; disjoint means that they have no overlap.

Snidely Whiplash wrote:"Even a blind pig sometimes finds an acorn."
Blindness does not impair the sense of smell.

Anonymous ZaijiaN June 11, 2016 3:41 PM  

Meanwhile, i'm having a lot of fun over in the Elite: Dangerous universe. The majority of what Star Citizen promised, yet delivered incrementally, with realistic expectations.

Blogger Sentient Spud June 11, 2016 3:52 PM  

@43 Is a stick mandatory? Been on the fence about getting Elite: Dangerous because I've heard M/KB just doesn't hold up very well with the game design.

Anonymous Steve June 11, 2016 4:13 PM  

Sentient Spud - Bloody hell:

So I chose to use all that money on airfare to buy a bunch of Endeavors. [Laughs] So I bought a five pack of Endeavors instead.

PCG: How much is an Endeavor?

Chris: $350 base. And, so, that weekend I spent another $2,600 on the game, just that weekend, after seeing CitizenCon’s results. That burst of excitement every time makes me pull out the wallet and give him more funds, it’s just horrible. [Laughs] And we have so many more things coming. I haven’t yet seen my Javelin. My Javelin was a $2,500 pledge from Christmas last year. I still have a token for another one from my Completionist package. We have many more ships to come, probably four or five mainstream ships and then some variants before the release comes around. Unfortunately, they still have a way of prying multiple thousands more probably, before all’s said and done.


Re: Elite. A stick isn't mandatory but highly recommended. Takes about 30 minutes to get the hang of it, then you'll never want to go back to mouse and keys.

The Thrustmaster Hotas X is a decent stick for only £30.

Blogger Matthew June 11, 2016 4:50 PM  

bob k. mando wrote:that's really weird that you're actually loading the post to the screen and then having the html obscure it.

Blogspot commenting system is so crappy that's basically the best solution up with which we could come. Think of it as a three foot tall chain-link fence.

Blogger Markku June 11, 2016 5:35 PM  

Is a stick mandatory?

I would't buy it without a stick. But as Steve said, a used, perfectly adequate one isn't expensive from ebay or equivalent.

Anonymous JAG June 11, 2016 5:38 PM  

Even is this game ever sees a launch I doubt it does much business from the general MMO crowd. The evidence so far indicates a massive pay to win to the tune of 10s of thousands of dollars. Most people aren't willing to cough up that amount of coin. Most are also not going to invest long term in a game where they know they have no chance in PvP unless they take out a second mortgage to compete.

Blogger Sentient Spud June 11, 2016 5:55 PM  

The evidence so far indicates a massive pay to win to the tune of 10s of thousands of dollars.

All evidence to date suggests that the only business model being run here is 'pay'.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash June 11, 2016 6:09 PM  

"Pay to play" is great
"Pay to win" is, well, i guess.
"Pay to win a game that you will never be able to play" is fraud.

Blogger Cynic In Chief June 11, 2016 6:46 PM  

Practically yes, I use an XBox 360 controller and have become pretty good at it. Don't jump right in, watch the tutorial videos and do the tutorial sessions. You don't want to smash your ship into a space station because you can't steer or be interdicted and shot down because you don't know how to fight.

Blogger Markku June 11, 2016 7:58 PM  

I started with XBox 360 controller, then moved to joystick. An old Microsoft Sidewinder Precision 2, where rotation of the stick along its height axis simulates pedals. The game became about four times easier immediately.

Anonymous Were-Puppy June 11, 2016 7:59 PM  

When the whole thing collapses, i hope someone interviews that same guy.

Will he feel burned, or play it off like a weekend at the casino?

Anonymous Quartermaster June 11, 2016 8:22 PM  

Sounds like fraud to me.

Blogger Markku June 11, 2016 8:22 PM  

The 30k guy? He'll blame Derek Smart. Otherwise SC would totally have happened, if it weren't for Derek Smart causing an avalanche effect in making people not believe in the project.

Blogger Markku June 11, 2016 8:24 PM  

He himself of course made a completely wise decision with those 30k. He just made one simple mistake: He didn't anticipate a rascal like Derek Smart turning up.

Anonymous ZaijiaN June 11, 2016 9:40 PM  

Sentient Spud wrote:@43 Is a stick mandatory? Been on the fence about getting Elite: Dangerous because I've heard M/KB just doesn't hold up very well with the game design.

7 years ago I would have been all PC master race... so it is with a tinge of residual shame to say that I've been playing it on the XB1 with the controller, which is surprisingly not terrible. Between the dual thumbsticks you can do pretty much any type of maneuvering.

But lacking HOTAS, I imagine using an xbox controller on the PC would actually be pretty workable.

Blogger Markku June 11, 2016 9:44 PM  

It's possible to play it on xbox controller, yes, I did it initially. But let me tell ya, the almost completely novice human opponent you'll encounter, if he has a joystick, will reliably kick your ass. And considering the very harsh consequences of ship destruction, that is going to anger you right proper.

Blogger Austin Ballast June 11, 2016 9:57 PM  

Jesus - no one knows the day or hour

The fail in using this quote to prove no one never will know the date is that Jesus did not say that. He said that no one, at the time He spoke, knew the date or hour.

He did not say "no one will ever know the date our hour." I don't recommend claiming something He did not say.

That said, I don't believe anyone will know it now, but I no longer believe that is a complete impossibility since that was not what He said. Unlike some, I take what is written seriously.

Blogger Markku June 11, 2016 10:11 PM  

[on second thought, that's enough about Rapture in a Star Citizen thread. I deleted my messages]

Anonymous VFM 4388 June 11, 2016 10:21 PM  

As I said, sooner or later the legal system is going to get involved in this mess. Someone is going to (at least attempt) sue, or an state Attorney General on the political make is going to open an investigation. At that point, Kickstarter is also going to start asking questions of them - to keep themselves out of the line of fire.

This has already been happening, which is why Kickstarter now requires projects to include a half-assed risk analasys.

Blogger James Dixon June 11, 2016 10:23 PM  

> [on second thought, that's enough about Rapture in a Star Citizen thread. I deleted my messages]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUZEtVbJT5c :)

Blogger WerePuppy June 11, 2016 11:11 PM  

Crash and Burn

Blogger WerePuppy June 11, 2016 11:13 PM  

@59 Markku

[on second thought, that's enough about Rapture in a Star Citizen thread. I deleted my messages]

I leave mine because it's triggering some humorless types. It was all in good fun, I thought :P

Blogger 1337kestrel June 11, 2016 11:43 PM  

The evidence so far indicates a massive pay to win to the tune of 10s of thousands of dollars.

It doesn't necessarily need to be play-to-win... but making it balanced will take time and cleverness. As an MMO it's not as big a problem as selling weapons in a deathmatch game.

Blogger CashBailey June 11, 2016 11:46 PM  

I was so close to throwing in for this fiasco.

God, I'm glad I didn't.

Blogger SRBEL June 12, 2016 12:38 AM  

I'll put in another vote for Elite: Dangerous. As a console pleb I say the xb1 version is great, and there's no cross-platform play so everyone is limited to the xb1 controller. If you're getting whipped in combat I only have one question: do you even FA-off, brah?

Anonymous IndecisiveEvidence June 12, 2016 2:23 AM  

Always relevant to a Star Citizen thread: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4_NSKB8fSQ

Blogger residentMoron June 12, 2016 2:38 AM  

"[on second thought, that's enough about Rapture in a Star Citizen thread. I deleted my messages]"

There's quite a parallel tho, the whole "When will JC/SC arrive?" and "Will I live or die?", "Will it all end with a bang or a whimper?"

It's so almost on topic....

Blogger residentMoron June 12, 2016 2:54 AM  

Watching the SC funding page has been interesting lately. Sharp decline in monthly totals but a sharp up-tick in daily totals a couple of days after the new ship announced.

This suggests to me that newcomers are declining, while even the Sunk Cost Fallangists are losing faith and therefore will to re-commit funds.

If so, this indicates the terminal stage of any Ponzi scheme. I would add that Roberts admitted it is a Ponzi scheme when he said he's using new money to fund operations...

Blogger SRBEL June 12, 2016 4:32 AM  

I'll put in another vote for Elite: Dangerous. As a console pleb I say the xb1 version is great, and there's no cross-platform play so everyone is limited to the xb1 controller. If you're getting whipped in combat I only have one question: do you even FA-off, brah?

Blogger Werekoala1066 June 12, 2016 9:04 AM  

Saw a commercial for Time Warner Cable internet service yesterday featuring "Star Citizen".

Yeah.

Anonymous Athor Pel June 13, 2016 9:15 AM  

"Blogger Markku June 11, 2016 12:49 PM
Watch this documentary and you'll all understand how this went down"


Finns are weird.
That is all.

OpenID ymarsakar June 16, 2016 11:17 PM  

The funny thing about false prophets is when they happen to be in another prophet's prophecy.

Post a Comment

Rules of the blog
Please do not comment as "Anonymous". Comments by "Anonymous" will be spammed.

<< Home

Newer Posts Older Posts