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Tuesday, June 28, 2016

Of Byzantium and the #AltRight

Caleb Q. Washington observes a certain synchronicity:
The history of the Byzantines hit a number of issues that are held closely by the Alt-Right. First of all, the fall of the Roman Empire is an area of historical significance that draws anyone who seeks to understand patterns of massive political change and upheaval of civilizations. The Byzantines are naturally a part of that story. They continued on from their weakened position for almost a millennium, accounting for about half of the days between the Rome’s foundation by Romulus and the fall of Constantinople. Understanding this civilization is one source from which the Alt-Right seeks knowledge about what might happen to our own Western Civilization and what it might take to preserve it.

One thing that is very important to the Alt-Right is tradition. The Byzantines were a civilization that maintained ancient traditions in a world that changed drastically around them. Their work, both culturally and militarily, has ensured that the great love of the Alt-Right, Western Civilization, survived long enough to thrive. The good done for the world by the Byzantines does not go unrecognized by those who have learned the story.

If any experience defines young people who have joined the Alt-Right, it is the notion of: “The Red Pill”. At some point, we all came to realize that some piece of the dominant cultural narrative is an inaccurate portrayal of the world, paralleling the experience of the protagonist in The Matrix. This is the intellectual equivalent of crossing the Rubicon, to use a relevant metaphor. Once one lie is unmasked, the entire tapestry of the cultural narrative is under suspicion. Part of the journey we find ourselves on is learning about the parts of history which go untaught.

The story of Byzantium is a story that will go untold to anyone who doesn’t actively seek it. It is the greatest civilization that is not mentioned in school. Learning the history of Byzantium means learning about a subject which is entirely absent from common historical narratives, which generally skip the years between 476 and 1066.
I don't actually have an opinion on this, but I did find it amusing in light of how one of my favorite histories is John Julius Norwich's three-volume History of the Byzantine Empire. Indeed, if you look closely on the videos of my appearances with Stefan Molyneux, you can see the spines in their pride of place next to the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica.

It is fascinating, however, to see how the atheist wing of the #AltRight is moving towards Christianity even as the evangelical wing is moving towards orthodoxy and race realism.

Labels:

145 Comments:

Blogger Brian S June 28, 2016 1:06 PM  

as someone who wasn't raised with religion, I'm coming to appreciate the benefits of it even if I personally tend towards "nature worship" (not any form of organized paganism, but just a general love for the outdoors and the cycles of nature)

Anonymous Faceless June 28, 2016 1:11 PM  

The Byantines are the forgotten people, the funny people. They kept getting beaten down, and they kept getting back up, but they also dwindled away. They protected the west and they were hated by the west.

I have a set of prints of Constantine Paleologus, standing at the broken walls. The Greeks remember, and they did, although it took a German prince to save them from servitude: "The walls have fallen but I survive."

Even when America is rended into all sorts of little places, the people still have a choice - live as a smaller but hardier unit, disappear, or relocate. I always figured the Alt Right chose smaller, hardier unit as the desirable outcome.

Anonymous Crude June 28, 2016 1:12 PM  

It is fascinating, however, to see how the atheist wing of the #AltRight is moving towards Christianity even as the evangelical wing is moving towards orthodoxy and race realism.

I think looking at just who's fighting against SJWs, 'refugees', etc in Europe is being noticed by many right-wing irreligious. It's the atheists and academics who are cheerfully trying to upend all the benefits of Western civilization. It's the people holding crosses in the air who are fighting the hardest.

Anonymous Shawn June 28, 2016 1:17 PM  

Part of my "Red Pill" experience, to which I owe great thanks to our host and the Ilk, was becoming Orthodox. I have yet to read to read "History of the Byzantine Empire", but it is now on the list. Many, many thanks!

Blogger frenchy June 28, 2016 1:17 PM  

Vox,

Whoa! Someone else who got the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica? I was told it was the last good one they did, and had the recipe on how to make gun cotton, so I picked up a set on Ebay for like $200. Really, I just wanted the gun cotton formula.

Anonymous AlexT June 28, 2016 1:20 PM  

'Byzantine History' by Alf Henriksson was my favourite book growing up. Read it if you can find a translation. A lot of western atipathy towards Byzantium is because they were what the Holy Roman Emperors wanted to be: Actual Emperors of Rome.

Anonymous Philalethes June 28, 2016 1:25 PM  

@5. frenchy:

Free, public-domain sources for 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica text

Blogger VD June 28, 2016 1:26 PM  

I picked up a set on Ebay for like $200

Phenomenal price. It's worth $1,500.

Blogger dc.sunsets June 28, 2016 1:27 PM  

Since I consider today's leftism to be nothing more than a Christian heresy, movement toward a more traditional form of Christianity has more to do with tradition than Christianity.

I was raised in a High Church Episcopal parish (long since converged) and while the civilization such upbringing inculcated is what I want, it too suffers from Magic Dirt limits.

I think it's the people (DNA, that is) who desire the traditions & the culture so produced that matter. Such people adopt the right form of Christian theology (as long as they're not prevented from doing so by collectively insane social convention.)

Too bad High Church Episcopalian parishes died. It was a fantastic place for young people of high IQ to find similarly bright mates.

Anonymous Madison June 28, 2016 1:30 PM  

Vox,
Why the 1911 edition? Is it worth getting?

Blogger RobertT June 28, 2016 1:37 PM  

From the article ... "One of them is a number of people, myself included, fascinated with the Byzantine Empire."

I'm impressed. Count me among them.

Anonymous Orville June 28, 2016 1:43 PM  

Loved the Encyclopedia Britanica as a kid (probably late 60's), we had that and World Book Encylopedia sets. Wold Book sucked compared to it.

Blogger Dirtnapninja June 28, 2016 1:43 PM  

The great enemy of the Byzantine Empire was factionalism.

Anonymous Mr. Rational June 28, 2016 1:45 PM  

Crude wrote:It's the atheists and academics who are cheerfully trying to upend all the benefits of Western civilization.
Nonsense.  Atheists are front and center in the fight, trying to get the religious to drop some of their crippling rules of engagement.  It was the religious in Michigan who fought to keep welfare increases for additional welfare babies, because they didn't want to encourage abortion.  Imagine Michigan with just half the parasites it has now.

The religious defeat themselves the same way the cucks do, but it's their own ethos hamstringing them and not the enemy's.

Blogger Joshua_D June 28, 2016 1:48 PM  

Mr. Rational wrote:Crude wrote:It's the atheists and academics who are cheerfully trying to upend all the benefits of Western civilization.

Nonsense.  Atheists are front and center in the fight, trying to get the religious to drop some of their crippling rules of engagement.  It was the religious in Michigan who fought to keep welfare increases for additional welfare babies, because they didn't want to encourage abortion.  Imagine Michigan with just half the parasites it has now.

The religious defeat themselves the same way the cucks do, but it's their own ethos hamstringing them and not the enemy's.


Easy there, Ms. Sanger.

Blogger Darwinian Arminian June 28, 2016 1:53 PM  

. . . even as the evangelical wing is moving towards orthodoxy and race realism.

As much as I'd like to believe this . . . . where? Can't see it happening from where I'm sitting. These days I'm far more likely to see the Southern-fried frauds of SBC16 vote to condemn the Confederate flag right before moving on to propose a statement of support for #BlackLivesMatter and then adjourning for a scheduled demonstration in front of the US Capital Building as they call for the immediate resettlement of more Syrian "refugees."

If you do know of any churches that are remaining faithful to Christ while also not cucking themselves out of existence, I'd love to hear of them. But I've looked far and wide for one myself, only to reach the conclusion that they're an endangered species, if not completely extinct.

Anonymous Orville June 28, 2016 1:53 PM  

I'll throw in my opinion that Byzantines were also influential in preserving the scriptures via the Byzantine texts that were a source for the Textus Receptus used by most of the reformers, as well as by whole lines of eastern churches that were never affiliated with Rome.

Anonymous Orville June 28, 2016 1:56 PM  

@15 Ditto that. I'm not seeing it either.

Anonymous patrick kelly June 28, 2016 2:00 PM  

@4 Shawn

Welcome! There are a handful of we Orthodox lurking and posting here.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash June 28, 2016 2:03 PM  

Darwinian Arminian wrote:If you do know of any churches that are remaining faithful to Christ while also not cucking themselves out of existence, I'd love to hear of them.
I'd love to say the Catholic Church, and 20 years ago I would have. But not now, not in America.

Blogger Alan June 28, 2016 2:03 PM  

For those so inclined, there is an interesting podcast series and blog about the history of the Christianity from an Orthodox perspective. Byzantium and the relationship between the Church and state is central to much of the series.

https://johnstrickland.org
https://johnstrickland.org/podcast/


Anonymous fred June 28, 2016 2:10 PM  

"Ditto that. I'm not seeing it either."

P.J. O'Rourke once said (I paraphrase) that at this point, all being a Christian means is that for some reason you can't remember, you have to give your golf clubs away to some mud-hut village in Namibia where they'll just wind up using them as weapons.

Anonymous Gecko June 28, 2016 2:13 PM  

"The Alt-Right and Byzantium" - because our answer to corruption is "kill it with fire."

Anonymous Elipe June 28, 2016 2:13 PM  

Guys, Vox is talking about evangelicals in the Alt Right movement, not in general.

Wtf is this talk about Michigan? That's not the Alt Right. That's the very establishment we Alt Right Christians are fighting to replace.

Blogger Orville June 28, 2016 2:14 PM  

I wonder if Owen Stanley touches on that in his new book. I've sworn off fiction for the summer, but I'm sorely tempted to get it. I was a huge Wodehouse fan as a teen.

Blogger wasu June 28, 2016 2:14 PM  

There is more untold history - the whole Eastern and South-Eastern Europe:
- fall of Kievian Rus
- fall of Hungary kingdom
- fate of Bosnia and Serbia
- Poland-Lithuania wars against Turkey and Tatars
- Habsburg Empire grown as opposition to Turkey
- raise of Russia and conquest of East

There is a reason why Eastern Europe is actively fighting Islamic immigration .. and it looks like it is now Western Europe time to be the frontier

Blogger Ken June 28, 2016 2:18 PM  

Sounds like a fit ting comparison, since Byzantium's greatest foe was Islam.

Anonymous Gecko June 28, 2016 2:27 PM  

I don't actually have an opinion on this

I find this statement surprising, and I've been a reader for years. Now that I think about it, I can't remember many times you mention the Eastern Romans. However, much of what you say is in line with one who would revere them, and from many different angles.

Blogger Gaiseric June 28, 2016 2:30 PM  

Ken wrote:Sounds like a fit ting comparison, since Byzantium's greatest foe was Islam.
Western civilization's greatest foe is the corrupt elements within itself. Islam is just the weapon that the corrupt use.

Anonymous Crude June 28, 2016 2:31 PM  

Mr. Rational,

Nonsense. Atheists are front and center in the fight, trying to get the religious to drop some of their crippling rules of engagement.

No, they're not, because most of them are still coming to grips with the realization that all the shit religious people were warning them about ('Islam is coming to Europe! These liberals are trying to suppress speech!') turned out to be true.

It was the atheists who were crowing, as recently as three years ago, how Europe is so irreligious, it's such an enlightened and beautiful place. Why, look at Sweden of all places! That is an atheist utopia.

It's not, unless having your numbers overrun with the fatally cucked out is the new utopia.

There are no 'crippling rules of engagement' among the religious, because 'the religious' has long been comprised of a diversity of people. We all knew it. Religious wars, remember? I assure you, right-wing Catholics had no patience for liberal Episcopalians well before atheists even knew there was a difference.

More recent was the conviction that atheists were united in love of reason and freedom and, as has been made clear, it ain't true. Gamergate is filled to the brim with people coming to grips with the fact atheism wasn't comprised of - beg pardon - 'Mr Rational' types, that a good number of their champions of yesterday are their most vicious attackers today. Meanwhile in Europe, when you do see people standing up to SJWs and muslim hordes, they're usually hefting crosses in the air. In either reverence or respect.

So kindly recognize the failure of New Atheism, atheism's inadequacy to contribute much in the way of reason and sense to the world, and that religious people have a whole lot of people with a lot more sense than many atheists will ever grasp in their lifetimes. A lot of them suck, but again, this isn't news to the religious.

There's a reason why Trump, whatever his beliefs, has a ton of religious support, and why all that talk of how he was dead in the hyper-religious south turned out to be bullshit. The idea that there's a major correlation between 'atheism and reasonable thought' or even 'atheism and love of freedom' is dead in the water.

Anonymous ovah June 28, 2016 2:32 PM  

Easy there, Ms. Sanger.

Easy there, enabling, Western-destroying Churchian Cuck.

Anonymous proxy weapons June 28, 2016 2:38 PM  

since Byzantium's greatest foe was Islam

It is not Islam - it is the International Jew and their allied Euro traitors.
There would be little trouble with Islam - or feminists, or the negro, or the mestizo - were it not for that over-represented, Babylonian Super Minority class - those whom it benefits the most, and who were most influential in changing the culture of Western Civ for their own gain, again, with the aid of traitors.

Blogger Cloudswrest June 28, 2016 2:38 PM  

"I picked up a set on Ebay for like $200

Phenomenal price. It's worth $1,500."

It comes from a time before Landru.

Blogger Nick S June 28, 2016 2:40 PM  

When I was a kid, I never dreamed I would live to see the tables turn so drastically, but turn they have. I imagine it's difficult to comprehend how utterly astonishing this turn of events is for people who weren't constantly pummeled with anti-soviet propaganda during their formative years.

Anonymous Moonbear June 28, 2016 2:45 PM  

@3 "It's the people holding crosses in the air who are fighting the hardest."

Sorry, have you seen the actions of the pope? He is more like the Holy Cuck than anything else.
He is so cuck in fact that he got the EU's prize of integration.

Anonymous Elijah Rhodes June 28, 2016 2:46 PM  

It is fascinating, however, to see how the atheist wing of the #AltRight is moving towards Christianity even as the evangelical wing is moving towards orthodoxy and race realism.

I also find it interesting that the rejection of the narrative is bringing people to very hybridized viewpoints. There's sort of a reshuffling of the deck going on. I was having a twitter exchange with someone who was making the case that Nationalism requires that one worship the god of The State. The justification for that was likely that the German form of nationalism was socialist, and so were many of the offshoot groups we've seen since.

I don't think nationalism requires any particular economic view, and we are currently seeing that expressed with the rise of a somewhat different form of nationalism, one that allows for positions that have historically been incompatible. For example, one can be a nationalist and reject American exceptionalism, or be a nationalist isolationist, or even a non-patriotic nationalist, as much as that seems to be a contradiction.

Quite a few of my acquaintances and friends are red-pilled to at least some extent. And I wouldn't call any of them nationalists by any traditional definition. Most are pretty libertarian-conservative-ish, but they all feel the tug of nationalism and are trying to incorporate that within the political framework they align with.

OpenID peppermintfrosted June 28, 2016 2:47 PM  

» #AltRight is moving towards Christianity

Old Testament is garbage about garbage Jews like Jacob, who jewed his father to jew his brother out of his birthright, and Joseph's brothers, who sold him into slavery, and Joseph himself, who jewed the Egyptians, and Moses and the god Yahweh, who jewed the Egyptians some more, and it goes on from there.

In response to this horrible record, the Scholastics invented "nominalism": the Scholastic conception of what behavior is sinful is suspended when talking about the heroes and the god of the Old Testament, on the grounds that that god can make things not sinful by saying so or whatever, so just leave it alone.

While the bibblical text says that God gave Adam a breath of life, which suggests dualism to the untrained mind, Aquinas preferred Aristotle's much more sensible hyelomorphic conception of soul, which is more of a non-conception of soul. However, Aquinas was still prejudiced against understanding our species in the context of the other species, asserting that we have one "soul" each, but the other species have one "soul" for their entire species.

The truth is, of course, that all conscious animals have consciousness, and you know if an animal is conscious if you know what it means to render it unconscious.

Aquinas knew that appetites were shared with the animals, but thought that reason was shared with the angels, and only humans, with both appetites and reason, also had passions. This three-layer mind concept was later taken by Freud, dressed up in psychobabble, and unleashed unto the world with the effect of subverting the sexual morality inherent to the monogamous White race.

The need to place man between animals and angels, and thus give man characteristics not shared with animals, does not necessitate, but prejudices against, an understanding of man as animal. The most striking difference is not, however, tool use, farming and herding, or organized warfare. The most striking difference is language (and thus politics).

Aquinas could have, and perhaps should have, said that God is the Word, and only the God, angels, and humans have words. That would have conveniently not have been wrong, and perhaps not have prejudiced future scholars so strongly against understanding human nature.

Blogger wasu June 28, 2016 2:52 PM  

@33

Now that is one big time hypocrite - have you seen that testimony of soviet empire role in planting left-side SJW in the west?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3qkf3bajd4

Blogger Snidely Whiplash June 28, 2016 2:52 PM  

Gaiseric wrote:Western civilization's greatest foe is the corrupt elements within itself. Islam is just the weapon that the corrupt use.

And this is different from the Eastern Empire, how, exactly?

Anonymous patrick kelly June 28, 2016 2:53 PM  

Let me recommend Byzantium by Stephen R. Lawhead as a fictional account of the era through the eyes of an Irish monk swept away by historical events as he makes his way to Constantinople.

OpenID economicsophisms.com June 28, 2016 2:56 PM  

I'm a big fan of Byzantium and an Orthodox catechumen. We may well need to set up a 'Byzantium'of our own, depending on how things go. I would encourage others to read about Byzantium, I don't see how one can do so (at least as an open-minded atheist) and not want to convert to Orthodoxy. Interestingly, in my Orthodox church, although fairly liberal for Orthodoxy, has Charity pamphlets for Palestinians, zero about cucking for Our Greatest Ally.

Blogger Cane Caldo June 28, 2016 2:57 PM  

"It is fascinating, however, to see how the atheist wing of the #AltRight is moving towards Christianity even as the evangelical wing is moving towards orthodoxy and race realism."

We must hope that atheists actually arrive at Christianity. There is a great risk for Christians of co-option and entryism under the guise of alliance. Too many atheists stop short of Christianity and land at some destination Socrates/Plato's "Noble Lie". From there they will attempt to manipulate our gullible and pre-occupied brothers and sisters in Christ. That is the history of Neo-Conservatism and how it maneuvered American Christians and it won't do. Atheists can be Christians neighbors and servants, but not our equals because we are co-heirs with Christ but they are not.

Blogger James Dixon June 28, 2016 2:57 PM  

OT but relevant. I am sitting 6 seats back and 2 rows to the right of a podium where our hoped to be next President will be appearing in another hour or two. I'll try to report how it went.

Blogger James Dixon June 28, 2016 2:58 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Cane Caldo June 28, 2016 2:58 PM  

@Patrick Kelly

I second Byzantium by Lawhead.

Anonymous Crude June 28, 2016 2:59 PM  

Moonbear,

Sorry, have you seen the actions of the pope? He is more like the Holy Cuck than anything else.

And I criticize him when he does cuck out - as do plenty of other Catholics. Who, you should realize, don't seem to share the Pope's views on such matters. Nor is that about to change.

As I keep saying - tell me there are religious cucks around. Vox calls them Churchians I believe, and he's right. The difference is that this wasn't news to religious people. That many religious people are sensible and fight to preserve the West that they created, while many atheists are in fact hostile to it, IS news to many atheists.

It's a lesson worth learning. The promise of New Atheism - that an irreligious world would be saner, more free, safer and more - turned out to be bullshit. You'd think the irreligious would want to get over their, frankly, superstitious fears of all things religious and realize there's a lot of value in it after all.

Anonymous Shawn June 28, 2016 3:02 PM  

@18. Thanks!

Blogger Mr.MantraMan June 28, 2016 3:02 PM  

Is a Byzantium Option on the table? Would it dry up Dreher's funding for world travel?

Blogger Cinco June 28, 2016 3:07 PM  

@James Dixon

Nice. How long people to his speech did you arrive to get that seat?

Anonymous Napoleon 12pdr June 28, 2016 3:08 PM  

@42:

If I'd known that, I'd have sent you the lyrics for "All You Need Is Trump". The tune is the Beatles' "All You Need Is Love".

Anonymous Napoleon 12pdr June 28, 2016 3:12 PM  

In the long term, faith has a long-period cycle. Around 200 years. Strong in the 1600s, weak in the 1700s, strong in the 1800s, weak in the 1900s.

We're due for an upturn.

Blogger CarpeOro June 28, 2016 3:13 PM  

I've been interested in Byzantium for a long time, but then I wanted to focus on military history when I was of an academic bent. The love-hate relationship between the Eastern Romans and the rest of Europe is complex but boils down to each leaving the other to fend for itself as they struggled in their own manner to survive.

There are certainly lessons to be learned from that relationship, the most important one being if other nationalists fail to send you help when you are worst off don't assume it is animosity and write them off. We are all going to be hunkering down to survive and sending part of our strength elsewhere is not likely to be an option. As times improve we will want to reestablish solid relations and consider extending some help. That may well be limited (ala Victoria) to simple advisers. If we are on the receiving end, we need to appreciate such help for what it is. Pax Romana and Pax Britannia passed, as will Pax Americana. Don't look for or strive to be the replacement. The price is too high.

Blogger Nick S June 28, 2016 3:14 PM  

wasu wrote:@33

Now that is one big time hypocrite - have you seen that testimony of soviet empire role in planting left-side SJW in the west?


Yes, I'm familiar with the way things were 40 years ago and I have no doubt that doctrinaire Communists are godless globalists just as all godless globalists are, by definition, communists and that includes many American SJW politicians today.

I'm also guessing that at least part of Putin's motivation for annexing Crimea was that it is a step toward Kiev and the reunification of the Moscow Patriarchate.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash June 28, 2016 3:17 PM  

As I see more and more of how the world is going and draw historical parallels, I have begun to wonder if Moscow isn't actually the new Byzantium.

The Western Empire is (again) collapsing due to its towering hubris, actually inviting the barbarians into Rome. The Provinces are declaring their independence.

The Legions are withdrawing from Britain.

Blogger Ostar June 28, 2016 3:19 PM  

And what did Byzantium's so-called allies do to her in the 4th Crusade? Backstabbed her and looted Constantinople.
I think that's one of the reasons the Byzantines are not mentioned much in the modern narratives, because such a lesson of treachery might open more than a few eyes to current similarities....

Anonymous A Pardigm Is More Than Twenty Cents June 28, 2016 3:33 PM  

The Byzantium option looks quite a bit better to me than the Benedict option. Perhaps this Theme can be developed further.

Blogger Josh June 28, 2016 3:35 PM  

Let me recommend Byzantium by Stephen R. Lawhead as a fictional account of the era through the eyes of an Irish monk swept away by historical events as he makes his way to Constantinople.

I also recommend Byzantium.

Blogger Sean Carnegie June 28, 2016 3:38 PM  

Moving towards orthodoxy? How and in what way? Define orthodoxy.

Blogger CM June 28, 2016 3:42 PM  

If you do know of any churches that are remaining faithful to Christ while also not cucking themselves out of existence, I'd love to hear of them.

Perhaps some like minded and local people should get together and form home churches where scripture is read and a simple liturgy is done.

Anonymous patrick kelly June 28, 2016 3:43 PM  

" Interestingly, in my Orthodox church, although fairly liberal for Orthodoxy, has Charity pamphlets for Palestinians"

Our Antiochian community has Syrian, Palestinian, and other Orthodox from the Middle East or Africa. Years ago they were cautioning us about not judging or profiling Muslims too much, talked about how they got along fine with them back in the "old country" yada-yada.

Not so much now. Some are arming themselves. Maybe they're having deja-vu from current events news.

Blogger CM June 28, 2016 3:45 PM  

From there they will attempt to manipulate our gullible and pre-occupied brothers and sisters in Christ.

The number of atheist bishops is unbelievable.

Anonymous Elipe June 28, 2016 3:46 PM  

Ever since the "Enlightenment", atheists demagogized "lel make up my own rules as I go" moral system and are now horrified to find elites applied their teachings.

Anonymous andon June 28, 2016 3:49 PM  

53. Blogger Snidely Whiplash June 28, 2016 3:17 PM
As I see more and more of how the world is going and draw historical parallels, I have begun to wonder if Moscow isn't actually the new Byzantium.

The Western Empire is (again) collapsing due to its towering hubris, actually inviting the barbarians into Rome...


is it hubris or treason?

Anonymous andon June 28, 2016 4:02 PM  

37. Blogger wasu June 28, 2016 2:52 PM
@33

Now that is one big time hypocrite - have you seen that testimony of soviet empire role in planting left-side SJW in the west?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3qkf3bajd4


I wonder what Bezmenov would think of Russia these days

Anonymous RCFlyer June 28, 2016 4:11 PM  

Interesting - I've always been fascinated with Byzantium. I also recommend "Byzantium" by Lawhead, great book. For those with a liking for sci-fi, "Up the Line" by Silverberg is a good read - about time-travelling tourists visiting various historical events in Constantinople. And I've recently been re-reading the Belisarius series by Flint and Drake.

Blogger Old Ez June 28, 2016 4:12 PM  

I read "The Grand Strategy of the Byzantine Empire" a few years ago. It was alright but not up to Luttwak's usual standards in my opinion. It actually focused more on Byzantine macro-tactics rather than strategy though, let alone grand strategy. Maybe I wasn't reading it right.



Blogger Josh June 28, 2016 4:14 PM  

I'm also guessing that at least part of Putin's motivation for annexing Crimea was that it is a step toward Kiev and the reunification of the Moscow Patriarchate.

You would be wrong.

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey June 28, 2016 4:16 PM  

Ezra Pound maintained that one of the reasons for the Eastern Roman Empire's longevity, and main the reason why it is so ignored in history classes, was their success in dealing with a certain tribe. No pogroms, no expulsions-- just banned from government, banking, and education.

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey June 28, 2016 4:16 PM  

Ezra Pound maintained that one of the reasons for the Eastern Roman Empire's longevity, and main the reason why it is so ignored in history classes, was their success in dealing with a certain tribe. No pogroms, no expulsions-- just banned from government, banking, and education.

Anonymous Daedalus Mugged June 28, 2016 4:20 PM  

Timing of the thread is good given that [omitted] just detonated a bomb at the airport of what was once Constantinople.

Blogger Nick S June 28, 2016 4:26 PM  

Josh wrote:You would be wrong.

Well, I said I was guessing. Since you are so sure, could you point me in a direction for more research into a full accounting of his true motivations?

Blogger Snidely Whiplash June 28, 2016 4:31 PM  

Francis Parker Yockey wrote:No pogroms, no expulsions-- just banned from government, banking, and education.

And media to that, and I'm all-in

Blogger Snidely Whiplash June 28, 2016 4:33 PM  

Daedalus Mugged wrote:Timing of the thread is good given that [omitted] just detonated a bomb at the airport of what was once Constantinople.
It's still Constantinople. it's just that Turks can't pronounce it properly.

Anonymous andon June 28, 2016 4:34 PM  

66. Blogger Josh June 28, 2016 4:14 PM
I'm also guessing that at least part of Putin's motivation for annexing Crimea was that it is a step toward Kiev and the reunification of the Moscow Patriarchate.

You would be wrong.


mindreader?

Anonymous andon June 28, 2016 4:36 PM  

71. Blogger Snidely Whiplash June 28, 2016 4:31 PM
Francis Parker Yockey wrote:
No pogroms, no expulsions-- just banned from government, banking, and education.


And media to that, and I'm all-in


how will you enforce it if they call themselves Stewart instead of Liebowitz?

Blogger frenchy June 28, 2016 4:41 PM  

"Phenomenal price. It's worth $1,500."

Well, the set was not in the best of condition. I remember that when I moved out of the apartment, the volume that was on the floor stained the beige carpet.

And to anyone interested, there are sets on Ebay right now averaging about $500. Mind you, they are only in fair condition. Still worth the investment. I saw two sets that looked like a steal!

Blogger Snidely Whiplash June 28, 2016 4:44 PM  

andon wrote:how will you enforce it if they call themselves Stewart instead of Liebowitz?
Registration and armbands, duh...

Anonymous Tosser June 28, 2016 4:54 PM  

Any interested readers might want to give Warren Treadgold's mammoth A HISTORY OF THE BYZANTINE STATE AND SOCIETY a try. Some may find it dry. I found it thrilling.

Anonymous Instasetting June 28, 2016 5:01 PM  

Agent of Byzantium and the Videssos Cycle by Harry Turtledove are about Byzantium, I think. I've read some of the second. Turtledove has a strong liking for bueraucracy as in the notion that the 'crats will keep things going in roughly the right direction even under a bad emperor, but the barbarians require a great leader to get anything good done.

Not sure if these books should be reccommended or not.

Anonymous RCFlyer June 28, 2016 5:13 PM  

Agent of Byzantium is good alt history - it imagines an Empire which survived much longer due to Mohammed converting to Christianity. Definitely recommend.

Anonymous CC June 28, 2016 5:15 PM  

Crude wrote:

As I keep saying - tell me there are religious cucks around. Vox calls them Churchians I believe, and he's right. The difference is that this wasn't news to religious people. That many religious people are sensible and fight to preserve the West that they created, while many atheists are in fact hostile to it, IS news to many atheists.

It's a lesson worth learning. The promise of New Atheism - that an irreligious world would be saner, more free, safer and more - turned out to be bullshit. You'd think the irreligious would want to get over their, frankly, superstitious fears of all things religious and realize there's a lot of value in it after all.


Yeah, this has been my realisation over the last few years. I was raised a Christian and was a strong believer as a child. However, a growing scepticism for the supernatural in the bible together with all the contradictions as well as overbearing church control led me to doubt it all when I was about 12 or 13.

I did appreciate much of the teachings and scripture and somehow still considered myself Christian as I had internalised so many of the lessons and values and I never rejected them even when contemplating other philosophy or spiritual teachings (much Western philosophy is about reconciliation with Christianity anyway). Concepts like sin and repentence, forgiveness and personal development all stayed with me (as I'm sure they do with others). I know too whats being sold as Christianity today in the mainstream, such as the garbage spouted by that globalist pope, is merely a tool of Western abnegation.

But since being "red pilled" I have done much more reading into the history of the West and I really understand just how much Christianity underpins it all. Without it, we wouldn't have individualism (for better or worse) which has allowed personal expression and development in so many fields, such as the scientific and creative. It has allowed Western Civilisation to thrive and fully exploit possibly the greatest strength humans possess, their adaptability.

So yeah, like you say, the virtues of Christianity become ever clearer to me, while the vices of being in a society lacking a strong moral code can make me feel like I'm living in a cuckoo clock.

Anonymous Moonbear June 28, 2016 5:24 PM  

@45 Crude
The polish and other eastern Europeans have it in their history to fight off Muslim invaders, I am not so sure it is the Christian heritage so much as the defenders of Europe mentality that makes them fight, certainly their religion does make up a part of it but it is not the complete picture.

The rest of the Christians in the world seems to think it is a good thing to have their churches converted to mosques, because kindness?
If that is not a accurate portrayal it seems to be the image I have constructed through observations.

Anonymous r June 28, 2016 5:35 PM  

The deeper you dig for red pills, the closer you get to true, unhippified Christianity. The only truly unforgivable sin is self-deception.

Blogger Alexandros June 28, 2016 5:41 PM  

The Byzantine Empire never gets the credit it deserves for saving the west; we sent legions into the Alps to liberate Italy from Islamic domination even while Constantinople was under siege.

Regardless, it's Russia's turn now to carry on that tradition.

Anonymous Joe Blowe June 28, 2016 5:47 PM  

proxy weapons wrote:since Byzantium's greatest foe was Islam

It is not Islam - it is the International Jew and their allied Euro traitors.

There would be little trouble with Islam - or feminists, or the negro, or the mestizo - were it not for that over-represented, Babylonian Super Minority class - those whom it benefits the most, and who were most influential in changing the culture of Western Civ for their own gain, again, with the aid of traitors.


Jews could be citizens in Byzantium but they could not hold any office or serve in the military. They could not give testimony against a Christian in court, could not own Christian slaves, had to live in their own neighbors, and live under other restrictions. For hundreds of years these laws were enforced the Byzantine Empire flourished. After a thousand years or so the Jews were tolerated more and more that by the 1400's when the Jews actually had more rights than the Christians in the Empire was kaput. This is why the history of the Byzantine Empire is not taught or popularized.

Blogger Josh June 28, 2016 5:51 PM  

Well, I said I was guessing. Since you are so sure, could you point me in a direction for more research into a full accounting of his true motivations?

Sure.

Crimea has been a part of Russia for two hundred years and was only given to the Ukraine during the USSR.

Anonymous andon June 28, 2016 5:55 PM  

85. Blogger Josh June 28, 2016 5:51 PM
Well, I said I was guessing. Since you are so sure, could you point me in a direction for more research into a full accounting of his true motivations?

Sure.

Crimea has been a part of Russia for two hundred years and was only given to the Ukraine during the USSR.


wow, looks like you settled that

Blogger Ben Cohen June 28, 2016 5:56 PM  

Funny that I'm reading Norwich's masterpiece right now. The overriding theme, especially in the later years of the empire, was that their worst enemies were the western Christians who constantly invaded with the aim to end the "schismatic Greek empire."

The parallels today are obvious. Who is the main enemy, the leftist traitors or the invaders (Muslims and pagans in Byzantine times)?

Blogger James Dixon June 28, 2016 5:57 PM  

> Nice. How long people to his speech did you arrive to get that seat?

We arrived at 1:30. They started letting people in just after 2:00. Mr. Trump arrived about 5:00. This was an invitation only event sponsored by Murray Energy.

Anonymous CC June 28, 2016 6:02 PM  

Josh wrote:Well, I said I was guessing. Since you are so sure, could you point me in a direction for more research into a full accounting of his true motivations?

Sure.

Crimea has been a part of Russia for two hundred years and was only given to the Ukraine during the USSR.


Apparently it was Kruschev's idea. He arbitrarily separated Crimea from Russia because of the Black Sea and it looked neater on the map (if I remember rightly). Gotta love that Communist reality defying logic.

You can learn more here:

http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Crimea_river

Blogger wasu June 28, 2016 6:07 PM  

@85
I believe his main reason to go for Crimea was strategic one - treaty to use Crimea military port for Russian marine was about to expire and Ukraine was not ready to extend it .. he was not going to let control of Black Sea to slip that easily. It is vital part of Russian security with possible invasion routes from south - they lost once a war that way ...

IMO he made a huge historical error by attacking further Ukraine - they probably could live without Crimea taken over with bloodless victory - the further attack antagonized them to no end.

Blogger James Dixon June 28, 2016 6:19 PM  

We didn't want to advertise the event too early, though I did mention in passing in an earlier discussion. The protesters were minimal and kept well back from the arena. Security was tight.

Blogger James Dixon June 28, 2016 6:19 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger dienw June 28, 2016 6:21 PM  

@12. Dirtnapninja

The great enemy of the Byzantine Empire was factionalism.

The only real major faction at that time was Roman Catholicism.

Anonymous Charlie Baud June 28, 2016 6:22 PM  

"Yeah, this has been my realisation over the last few years. I was raised a Christian and was a strong believer as a child. However, a growing scepticism for the supernatural in the bible together with all the contradictions as well as overbearing church control led me to doubt it all when I was about 12 or 13."

Amazing how skepticism is really just an adolescent problem with authority. Atheism is inhherintly childish.

Also amazong how teenagers somehow discover "contradictions" (really just misapprehensions) in the Bible that great theologians somehow missed for centuries.

Blogger Crude June 28, 2016 6:26 PM  

Moonbear,

The polish and other eastern Europeans have it in their history to fight off Muslim invaders, I am not so sure it is the Christian heritage so much as the defenders of Europe mentality that makes them fight,

They seem pretty fucking sure. At the very least even the irreligious among them have a healthy honor and respect for their religion and its traditions. They aren't holding up the humanist logo at football rallies in an act of defiance against the muslims.

Keep in mind, these aren't exactly people for whom atheism is a novel idea. It's pretty notable that the cultural wages of atheism and explicit irreligion are rotten.

Are there a lot of shitty Christians? Yes. St Paul could have told you that. And Aquinas, and Thomas More, and anyone else. I'm Catholic and I'll flat out say our current pope is largely rotten. Shitty Christian leaders happen. Notice that the shittiest Christians tend to be the ones who most embrace an in-practice irreligious, left-wing ideology, by the by.

What I'm saying is pretty hard to deny: there's value in religion/Christianity, particularly where the alt right is concerned. New Atheism's central claim has failed. Atheists love to talk about being evidence based and willing to suck up hard truths. Here's one more they need to wake up to.

Anonymous Charlie Baud June 28, 2016 6:40 PM  

@1

Nature worship is a vulgar sentimentality that can be easily manipulated because it has no solid dogmas.

@13

Amazing how atheists always claim their support for abortion, a largely Jewish-controlled industry that has decimated white birthrates, as proof of their love for the West.

@30

If Churchians have harmed the west, it is only because they followed the lead of the useful idiot atheists that came before them.

@36

“Old Testament is garbage about garbage Jews like Jacob, who jewed his father to jew his brother out of his birthright, and Joseph's brothers, who sold him into slavery,”

Neither of which are presented as admirable acts.

“and Joseph himself, who jewed the Egyptians,”

By helping them successfully manage a famine?

“and Moses and the god Yahweh, who jewed the Egyptians some more,”

By freeing wrongfully imprisoned people from slavery?

“In response to this horrible record, the Scholastics invented "nominalism": the Scholastic conception of what behavior is sinful is suspended when talking about the heroes and the god of the Old Testament, on the grounds that that god can make things not sinful by saying so or whatever, so just leave it alone.”

That's a dumbded-down version of Ockham's divine command theory, but hardly the sole scholastic view.

Ed Feser has a good post on the subject, if you're literate enough to read it:
http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2010/10/god-obligation-and-euthyphro-dilemma.html

“The truth is, of course, that all conscious animals have consciousness, and you know if an animal is conscious if you know what it means to render it unconscious.”

Saying the soul is just consciousness is an absurdly reductionist stance, nor does Catholic theology say that animals are without souls, only that the souls of animals are not immortal.

“Aquinas knew that appetites were shared with the animals, but thought that reason was shared with the angels, and only humans, with both appetites and reason, also had passions. This three-layer mind concept was later taken by Freud, dressed up in psychobabble, and unleashed unto the world with the effect of subverting the sexual morality inherent to the monogamous White race.

The need to place man between animals and angels, and thus give man characteristics not shared with animals, does not necessitate, but prejudices against, an understanding of man as animal. The most striking difference is not, however, tool use, farming and herding, or organized warfare. The most striking difference is language (and thus politics).”

Actually, Freud was the one who disregarded the idea of man as a rational being and reduced man to an animal, as you seem to want to do.

Blogger wasu June 28, 2016 6:54 PM  

@95
"They seem pretty fucking sure. At the very least even the irreligious among them have a healthy honor and respect for their religion and its traditions"

You got it very close - I can observe that for a lot of Poles, maybe even majority - religion is a tradition not faith.

BTW. Do you know that small Bulgaria has declared radical Islam a crime?

Blogger Crude June 28, 2016 6:59 PM  

wasu,

You got it very close - I can observe that for a lot of Poles, maybe even majority - religion is a tradition not faith.

The lines between tradition and faith aren't always so stark. Religion is in part a conviction and a commitment, not just a measure of how much hypothetical odds someone places on the truth of a particular claim.

That said, Poles are unique in that I remember hearing their youth are at once more irreligious yet also more pro-life than their parents were. Go figure.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash June 28, 2016 7:15 PM  

dienw wrote:The only real major faction at that time was Roman Catholicism.
That statement is so far off the mark it might as well be from another planet. The Church itself was not considered or called "Roman" for most of the life of the Empire, and represented at least 4 major factions and dozens of

minor ones over the centuries. The various Imperial and noble families spawned factions at an amazing rate. Even the sporting world created factions (the Reds and Blues) that participated in court politics and racked up a surprisingly large number of assassinations.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash June 28, 2016 7:21 PM  

Greens and Blues

Blogger wasu June 28, 2016 7:24 PM  

@98
Poles have a very strong right-side politics tradition that is based on patriotism (call it nationalism), statism, conservative values (family), moral values .. but not necessarily - Catholicism. I guess Church joined patriots here, not the other way around ..

Thing that goes nowadays in Poland is that young go non-religious (in meaning - i do not care for religion and wasting 1 hour weekly) while right/conservative values (hence pro-life, family) and patriotism generally spread - statistics says 18-29 y.o. - 65-75% vote right.

Anonymous CC June 28, 2016 7:26 PM  

Charlie Baud wrote:"Yeah, this has been my realisation over the last few years. I was raised a Christian and was a strong believer as a child. However, a growing scepticism for the supernatural in the bible together with all the contradictions as well as overbearing church control led me to doubt it all when I was about 12 or 13."

Amazing how skepticism is really just an adolescent problem with authority. Atheism is inhherintly childish.

Also amazong how teenagers somehow discover "contradictions" (really just misapprehensions) in the Bible that great theologians somehow missed for centuries.


Well, I'm just naturally sceptical. For example the Catholics believe in transubstantiation and that Mary had a virgin birth, the Protestants don't. I believe even less than both of them. But it doesn't mean I disbelieve or discount it all.

I've had and witnessed so many debates on doubt and faith and the arguments always tend to go round in circles. To me it feels a bit pointless. It seems impossible for one side to convince the other. Anyhow, I respect people's right to believe what they want and explain it how they want. I always could see the merits of faith and can also understand the yearning for it, a writer like Graham Greene explored that very well. And as I said, I've come to realise how vital Christianity is to Western Civilisation, you really can't have one without the other. I just wanted to say that Vox was right in my case when he was pointing out how some people are moving toward Christianity. I expect it will experience a surge as times get tougher for Christians.

And who knows? Maybe my beliefs will change. I'm certainly thinking about it more. In any case I do consider myself a Christian in how I try to live my life. People wear WWJD bracelets and I like to think that kind of thinking comes automatically to most people raised in a Christian culture. In any case, I got the messages Jesus was delivering in his parables.

And I'm relieved I wasn't reared in some of the other religions, especially something like Islam. I would have completely turned away from that.

Anonymous Charlie Baud June 28, 2016 7:56 PM  

@101

And where does those conservative and moral values come from if not Catholicism? The Church was the one thing that preserved Polish values through Communist rule. As Glubb pointed out, there is no natuional identity without religion.

@102

Protestant believe in the virgin birth, but not transusbstiantion. This is a doctrinal difference, not a contradiction. The Virgin birth can be trusted as the New Testament documents have been historically verrified, and there are enough Eucharistic miracles to verrify transsubstantiation.

Blogger Rusty Fife June 28, 2016 8:04 PM  

Charlie Baud wrote:

“and Joseph himself, who jewed the Egyptians,”

By helping them successfully manage a famine?

“and Moses and the god Yahweh, who jewed the Egyptians some more,”

By freeing wrongfully imprisoned people from slavery?


The alternative reading for that is Joseph used insider information to corner the market on food before the famine. Made himself famously rich, protected his crime family (((because blood is thicker than gold))), and enslaved one of the six cradles of civilization.

The new pharoh, who took over after the Egyptian slaves revolted, then ensalved the Jews as recompense.

Poor Jews dindu nuff'n.

Anonymous Charlie Baud June 28, 2016 8:18 PM  

"The alternative reading for that is Joseph used insider information to corner the market on food before the famine."

If you want to classify saving up grain and being financially responsible as "using insider information", then sure.

https://www.theologyofwork.org/old-testament/genesis-12-50-and-work/joseph-genesis-372-5026/josephs-successful-management-of-the-food-crisis-genesis-4146-57-4713-26/

Anonymous Charlie Baud June 28, 2016 8:18 PM  

"The alternative reading for that is Joseph used insider information to corner the market on food before the famine."

If you want to classify saving up grain and being financially responsible as "using insider information", then sure.

https://www.theologyofwork.org/old-testament/genesis-12-50-and-work/joseph-genesis-372-5026/josephs-successful-management-of-the-food-crisis-genesis-4146-57-4713-26/

Blogger Rusty Fife June 28, 2016 8:19 PM  

@104 Charlie Baud

I might go further. Egyptian enslavement may have even brought the Jews to civilization much like the Hajnal/Manorialism did for the Europeans. Before then they were pastoral goat ropers.

Blogger Rusty Fife June 28, 2016 8:23 PM  

Charlie Baud wrote:If you want to classify saving up grain and being financially responsible as "using insider information", then sure.

Joseph correctly interpreted the dream; i.e. insder information.

Then recommended the pharoh tax the people an additional 20% so the pharoh could warehouse it; i.e. corner the market.

When the Egyptian populace ran out of food, they weren't allowed to store themselves, the Pharoh enslaved them.

Joseph protected his family from the same consequences.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash June 28, 2016 8:34 PM  

Charlie Baud wrote:If you want to classify saving up grain and being financially responsible as "using insider information", then sure.

If you want to classify cornering the market in staple foods and using his political connections and market power to dispossess and enslave the native population of the country as "being financially responsible". Israel deserved enslavement.

Blogger Rusty Fife June 28, 2016 8:40 PM  

@106 Charlie Baud

When all of the livestock had been traded, people willingly sold themselves into slavery to Pharaoh and sold him the ownership of their lands as well (Gen. 47:18-21). 

Sure. This must have made Joseph weep at night. What other choice did he have?

Perhaps he could have broadcast the prophesy and told everyone else to store their own grain? Perhaps not built a huge Leviathan to steal all their freaking food.

This is what one Jew did to a Cradle of Civilization. Impressive.

Anonymous Charlie Baud June 28, 2016 8:59 PM  

@109

"If you want to classify cornering the market in staple foods and using his political connections and market power to dispossess and enslave the native population of the country as "being financially responsible". Israel deserved enslavement."

Saving up grain that would have otherwise been wasted or died is indeed being responsible.

@110

Quoting Barnes;

" They do not become Pharaoh's bondmen. They own their land under him by a new tenure. They are no longer subject to arbitrary exactions. They have a stated annual rent, bearing a fixed ratio to the amount of their crop. This is an equitable adjustment of their dues, and places them under the protection of a statute law. The people are accordingly well pleased with the enactment of Joseph, which becomes henceforth the law of Egypt."

You're assuming that people would have believed Joseph, or that he was in any position to make the prophecy known.

Blogger Rusty Fife June 28, 2016 9:08 PM  

@109 Snidely Whiplash

The other interesting take-away is how little loyalty the immigrant Joseph has for his adopted country. Notice the family that sold him into slavery and nearly killed him; still gets put on the dole during a famine.

The natives are enslaved, and the immigrants, who brought nothing; no skills only more mouths to feed, are free.

They even tried paying for the food and he gave away the king's stuff.

Blogger Rusty Fife June 28, 2016 9:16 PM  

@111 Charlie Baud

From your link, this is awesome: "His wise strategy and effective implementation of the plan even allowed Egypt to supply grain to the rest of the world during the famine (Gen. 41:57). "

Not only did Joseph's plan enslave the native Egyptians; he made a killing on the foreign markets as well. No wonder the Egyptians hated his guts. Steal their food, later steal their land, and sell the stolen food to other countries for more cash!

Soros really is the fruit of this guy's loins.

Blogger Rusty Fife June 28, 2016 9:23 PM  

Charlie Baud wrote:You're assuming that people would have believed Joseph, or that he was in any position to make the prophecy known.

I make no such assumption. I virtually guarantee that many people would have ignored him. He could have even had the Pharaoh make a proclamation that the people shalt store the requisite grain. Many wouldn't have. They would have starved.

But it is better to live free than die. Joseph was not a model citizen he was an alien invader that took advantage of a political crisis to enrich himself and his family. They deserved their consequent enslavement.

Anonymous Gen. Kong June 28, 2016 9:38 PM  

dienw:
The only real major faction at that time was Roman Catholicism

Not really, but the RCs were ultimately the force which led to its demise. The schism was formalized only in the mid-11th century. Before that there was considerable infighting between the Iconoclasts and the Iconodules. The Iconodules won out eventually but the civil war lasted around 200 years. Left them in bad shape for the "Biznissmens' Crusade" of 1204, the only time the walls of Constatinople were entered by hostile (Western, Roman Catholic) forces - largely thanks to treason. After the looting of the city (largely by French and Venetians) is when they formed the "Latin Empire" to occupy the place - while the actual Byzantine nobles formed the Despotate of Epirus, and the Empires of Nicaea and Trebizond - eventually re-taking the city in the 1260s. The Byzantine Empire never really recovered from the Fourth Crusade. Less that 200 years later the great wall of Theodosius II - which had fended off invaders for a thousand years - was destroyed by Ottoman guns specially designed by Catholic engineers from Italy.

Anonymous Charlie Baud June 28, 2016 10:51 PM  

“The other interesting take-away is how little loyalty the immigrant Joseph has for his adopted country. “

By helping them whether an economic crisis and coming out stronger than before?

“Notice the family that sold him into slavery and nearly killed him; still gets put on the dole during a famine. “

They weren't put on anything. Joseph provided for them on his own.

“Notice the family that sold him into slavery and nearly killed him; still gets put on the dole during a famine.”

Read Barnes again, you obtuse retard, they weren't enslaved.

“Not only did Joseph's plan enslave the native Egyptians; he made a killing on the foreign markets as well.”

Where does any of that imply he made a killing? Egypt had enough reserves to sell to other countries.

“I make no such assumption. I virtually guarantee that many people would have ignored him. He could have even had the Pharaoh make a proclamation that the people shalt store the requisite grain. Many wouldn't have. They would have starved.”

And because of Joseph, they didn't, and Egypt was better off.

@115

The sack of Constantinople was retaliation of the Massacre of the Latins, which anti-Catholic historians never acknowledge.


http://italianmonarchist.blogspot.com/2015/04/massacre-of-latins.html

If you want to blame someone for the fall of Constaniople, blame the Jews who lowered the gates.

Anonymous Mr. Rational June 28, 2016 11:01 PM  

Crude wrote:No, they're not, because most of them are still coming to grips with the realization that all the shit religious people were warning them about ('Islam is coming to Europe! These liberals are trying to suppress speech!') turned out to be true.
Really?  How many atheists do you know?  As in, sit around, drink beer and shoot the bull with?

I'm sure I know a lot more than you do, and a lot better than you do.  Among those of my acquaintance, positions on the Religion of Pieces range from negative to openly hostile.  (When you understand that moslems wouldn't even give you a chance to convert before killing you, it tends to color your attitude accordingly.)  I don't think any of us would disagree with the relevant statements of either Richard Dawkins or Winston Churchill.

The shitlibs and (((globalists))) posing as atheist leaders for the public are about as representative of the average man who'd never sit in a pew as Paul Ryan is of the average Republican.  There is a lot less difference between us than you think.

It was the atheists who were crowing, as recently as three years ago, how Europe is so irreligious, it's such an enlightened and beautiful place. Why, look at Sweden of all places! That is an atheist utopia.
Yes, it was so nice wasn't it... until a particularly nasty religion got established there.

You helped create that problem, you know.  You were so shrill and nasty about not serving God and everything else that most people just plain tuned you out, which gave a certain group of (((people))) a chance to insert deadly enemies under the radar.  You could have rooted your talk in the real world, about beheadings and infibulation and consummation of marriages with 9-yr-olds.  Both secularized Christians and atheists care about such things.  You wasted your moral authority on pronouncing divine punishments.  Nobody thinks fire will come from the sky and destroy sinful cities a la Sodom.  Did you describe the actual threats Sweden would face?  Not that I recall... and I recall atheist voices warning in real-world terms, in magazines like Reason.  Ibn Warraq is one name that comes to mind.

Sweden's major problems today come from religion:  the Religion of Pieces.

So kindly recognize the failure of New Atheism, atheism's inadequacy to contribute much in the way of reason and sense to the world, and that religious people have a whole lot of people with a lot more sense than many atheists will ever grasp in their lifetimes.
Humans will ever mess up with evidence and reason.  It's no reason to give up on them.

Blogger Were-Puppy June 28, 2016 11:02 PM  

@67 Francis Parker Yockey
Ezra Pound maintained that one of the reasons for the Eastern Roman Empire's longevity, and main the reason why it is so ignored in history classes, was their success in dealing with a certain tribe. No pogroms, no expulsions-- just banned from government, banking, and education.
---

That's a very interesting point.

Blogger David-093 June 28, 2016 11:09 PM  

@116

I had never heard of the Massacre of the Latins until now. Forgotten history indeed.

Blogger Were-Puppy June 28, 2016 11:09 PM  

@84 Joe Blowe


After a thousand years or so the Jews were tolerated more and more that by the 1400's when the Jews actually had more rights than the Christians in the Empire was kaput. This is why the history of the Byzantine Empire is not taught or popularized.
---

Wasn't it some Byzantium city that (((someone))) opened the gates for muslims?

Anonymous Mr. Rational June 28, 2016 11:13 PM  

peppermintfrosted wrote:Aquinas could have, and perhaps should have, said that God is the Word, and only the God, angels, and humans have words. That would have conveniently not have been wrong, and perhaps not have prejudiced future scholars so strongly against understanding human nature.
It might have prevented Ayn Rand from going so far off the rails too; Koko the gorilla is enough of a counterexample to her bright-line criterion to force a re-evaluation, if Objectivism hadn't already hardened into a dogma.

Dogmas, partial or untruths which we consider parts of our identity and have extreme difficulty examining critically, are perhaps THE biggest threat we have in this age.

Blogger Were-Puppy June 28, 2016 11:18 PM  

@102 CC

Mary had a virgin birth, the Protestants don't
---

They don't? News to me.

Blogger Were-Puppy June 28, 2016 11:24 PM  

@113 Rusty Fife

Not only did Joseph's plan enslave the native Egyptians; he made a killing on the foreign markets as well.
---

The Original Bankstah

Now, did he have secret knowledge of pyramids into grain silos?

Blogger EscapeVelocity June 28, 2016 11:26 PM  

Never met an Atheist that didnt love the Left's war on Christendom. School Prayer, Intelligent Design, removal of Christian iconography from the public sphere and religious trapping in govt buildings and institutions.

Atheists are just another (perhaps the first) Cultural Marxist agitated minority group...supporting the cultural dismantling of Eruopean Christendom.

Maybe there is some kind of reproachment going on, but I dont see it.

Blogger Crude June 28, 2016 11:30 PM  

MR,

Really? How many atheists do you know? As in, sit around, drink beer and shoot the bull with?

Irreligious? Plenty. Hardcore New Atheist atheists? I don't keep those people as friends. Even irreligious regard them as unpalatable.

But I've got more than enough experience seeing claims like 'Sweden is like an atheist paradise, oh God it shows how great the world would be without religion'. I've watched PZ Myers and Richard 'Polyamous/Actually a creep' Carrier and company go full on New Atheist for years, drop the mask, then kick it into Atheism+ gear.

Hell, Richard Dawkins himself famously talked about using ridicule and belittling on theists, writing off the idea that normalizing such could backfire on him because atheists are so much wittier. The very idea that atheists could ever -turn on him too- came as such a shock to him, I hear he had a stroke.

The shitlibs and (((globalists))) posing as atheist leaders for the public are about as representative of the average man who'd never sit in a pew as Paul Ryan is of the average Republican.

The average irreligious person has no trouble sitting in a pew. Sorry man, but the person who can't let a post-sneeze 'bless you' pass without a pissy comment is a subsection of a subsection of a subsection.

Really, 'never sit in a pew'? That's the sort of frantic shit you have to let go of. It's atheism's functional replacement for actual superstition.

Yes, it was so nice wasn't it... until a particularly nasty religion got established there.

Yeah: 'Secular humanism/left-wing secular politics.' You act like the 'particularly nasty religion' got established there by fucking accident. They were invited in, by irreligious and atheists. Who, then and now, still treat the Christians fighting muslims in the Crusades as religious barbarism, not 'a great thing'.

That's on you guys. You didn't even see it coming. And as usual, you refuse to learn lessons. Too frightening for you.

You helped create that problem, you know. You were so shrill and nasty about not serving God and everything else that most people just plain tuned you out,

With respect, gent, you don't know what the fuck I did, or what values I've preached. You want to point out problems among the religious? Bad news: I can do it better than you, more thoroughly, with more convincing points. So can many religious people. And no, atheists demonstrably don't care about those things, hence bitches in Scandinavia lugging around signs saying "Will trade racists for rapists" and "Refugees welcome". Care to guess what proportion will back Team Clinton in the US this year?

But God forbid many Christians don't want to sanctify same-sex marriages (Good job on that, by the way, what with the LGBT lobby nearly all-in on their muslim defense) - great reason to attack 'em. Irreligiosity came, and its nations collapsed. They collapsed/are collapsing -everywhere-, in fact, with Sweden just being the most prominent example. Not because theists undermined you. It was a self-inflicted wound by irreligious and atheists, and you still won't admit it because, God forbid, that would mean copping to New Atheism's failure. And just like the SJW atheists, a chunk of New Atheists would sooner make things worse than admit to a fuckup.

Humans will ever mess up with evidence and reason. It's no reason to give up on them.

New Atheism wasn't about evidence or reason. It was a shitty secular eschatology rooted in spite and ignorance. It has been debunked. The people who still cling to it and can't cop to atheism's failures are the secular version of a guy with fifty X's marked on his calendar, mumbling to himself 'No, for SURE, this time I KNOW this is rapture day.'

Anonymous andon June 28, 2016 11:39 PM  

116. Anonymous Charlie Baud June 28, 2016 10:51 PM
“The other interesting take-away is how little loyalty the immigrant Joseph has for his adopted country. “

By helping them whether an economic crisis and coming out stronger than before?


sounds like he was helping himself

Blogger Snidely Whiplash June 28, 2016 11:42 PM  

"... It was a self-inflicted wound by irreligious and atheists, and you still won't admit it because, God forbid, that would mean copping to New Atheism's failure. "
Irreligion and Atheism are themselves the wound.

Blogger Were-Puppy June 28, 2016 11:42 PM  

@124 EscapeVelocity

Never met an Atheist that didnt love the Left's war on Christendom. School Prayer, Intelligent Design, removal of Christian iconography from the public sphere and religious trapping in govt buildings and institutions.
---

I've had this same experience. The ones I've met that are serious Atheists had a monomania about Christianity, to the detriment of almost everything else.



Atheists are just another (perhaps the first) Cultural Marxist agitated minority group...supporting the cultural dismantling of Eruopean Christendom.
---

I recall reading in the Black Book of Communism where the commies in the USSR would sponsor atheist days. These would be at Christmas, Easter, etc. And would have these huge obnoxious gatherings right near every church. Especially the ones they had yet to loot.

Blogger EscapeVelocity June 28, 2016 11:46 PM  

Atheists also cling to this foolish idea that is promoted by the Left that Christianity and Christendom is and has been Anti-Science.

This conflict theory Left Narrative is deeply cherished by Atheists...and it's obviously false...and has been thoroughly refuted.

Besides that fact that the Marxist-Communists were prima-facia Atheists. This being the banner under which Christendom has been most thoroughly bebased.

Atheism is shite. Telling Christendom to accept the debauchery of Leftwing revolutionary social war.

But yes, Marxism and Cultural Marxism were designed specifically to target Christendom and Christian societies, systems, and institutions. Using Alinsky tactics of holding them to their own principles. Blaming Chirstendom for this is blaming the victim.

Blogger EscapeVelocity June 28, 2016 11:50 PM  

Atheism IS rootless cosmopolitanism.

Anonymous Charlie Baud June 29, 2016 12:34 AM  

@117

You can use all the anecdotal evidence you want, but the fact is that Christians are far more likely to oppose immigration than atheists are.

http://www.amren.com/news/2015/11/pew-muslims-hindus-most-pro-immigration-groups-in-u-s/

Christian morality was never an obstacle for nationalism before, it actually bolstered it. The problem was that atheists and secularists weakened and undermined the Christian influence that had kept suicidal leftism at bay. If nationalist atheists were as numerous and important as you say they were, why didn't they do anything about it?

" and I recall atheist voices warning in real-world terms, in magazines like Reason."

The same Reason magazine that opposes nationalism and supports open immigration?

"Humans will never mess up with evidence and reason. It's no reason to give up on them."

And all atheism can produce is sentiment and anecdote, apparently.

@121

“Dogmas, partial or untruths which we consider parts of our identity and have extreme difficulty examining critically, are perhaps THE biggest threat we have in this age.”

Dogmas are fundamental to social identity, but I don't expect you to understand that.

Anonymous Charlie Baud June 29, 2016 12:54 AM  

@126

Sounds like you can't fucking read.

Blogger EscapeVelocity June 29, 2016 1:02 AM  

*rapprochement

argh!

Anonymous CC June 29, 2016 7:22 AM  

Were-Puppy wrote:@102 CC

Mary had a virgin birth, the Protestants don't

---

They don't? News to me.


That's what I was always told growing up (I was raised a Catholic). I see that in terms of the story of Christ it makes little sense. I'll have to read up on that and see where I got if from.

Interesting discussion here, I have to admit I was influenced by the cultural marxism when rejecting organised religion. I always had this perception that white men and the West were being run down all the time, but I never knew where this came from and it definitely influenced me. But I understand the value of Christian tradition in society now. Give me that over communism any day of the week.

Incidentally, my father used the story with Joseph and the grain at a board meeting (it was a Christian organisation). They had a surplus of money and the other board members wanted to spend it all. He told them to remember the 7 years of want that followed the 7 years of plenty and managed to caution them against it, so that was a good take-away from that story, whatever you think of Joseph's behaviour.

Blogger Rusty Fife June 29, 2016 9:34 AM  

CC wrote:Incidentally, my father used the story with Joseph and the grain at a board meeting (it was a Christian organisation). They had a surplus of money and the other board members wanted to spend it all. He told them to remember the 7 years of want that followed the 7 years of plenty and managed to caution them against it, so that was a good take-away from that story, whatever you think of Joseph's behaviour

Joseph's behaviour is admirable if you were a pastoralist Jew, who had no claim on Egypt's grain, and was starving. I can see why he is a hero to them.

However, they never seem to be able to put themselves in the place of the Egyptians who were hurt by Joseph's actions. No narcissism to see here.

The part that chaps my ass is the subsequent moaning about how badly the Egyptians treated them afterwards. If they'd just suck it up and admit to their part in the enslavement, it would be fine.

But no. The Jews dindu nuffin to warrant the mistreatment of the Egyptians. They were just minding their own business in a foreign land where they weren't invited by the natives.

Anonymous Crude June 29, 2016 10:15 AM  

By the way, it's not like I think all irreligious are bad people. Far from it. And I think there's a growing awareness among the irreligious that perhaps the right wing has more appeal than they thought (especially Trump), and even that maybe Christianity has some things going for it, regardless of their views on the ultimate truth of it all.

I'm Catholic. I do not cast a blind eye to papal failures, the effects of left-wing Christians on policy, etc. Atheists would do well to finally realize that irreligious, even atheist people, are not enlightened beings of reason in the main. Alt-right irreligiosity is going to involve getting over New Atheism.

By the by, I see Dawkins there is on the frantic 'Oh God we must remain, support this petition for a revote' train.

Anonymous Charlie Baud June 29, 2016 1:34 PM  

Rusty, you're still being an obtuse retard.

The grain was stored by the Pharoah, not Joseph. The Egyptians were never enslaved and still held their own land, and selling their cattle relieved them of a burden.

Anonymous Charlie Baud June 29, 2016 2:04 PM  

"And I think there's a growing awareness among the irreligious that perhaps the right wing has more appeal than they thought (especially Trump), and even that maybe Christianity has some things going for it, regardless of their views on the ultimate truth of it all."

I wish I could be as optimistic, but atheists by and large support immigration and leftist policy. Is it a coincidence that Poland's youth are less religious and also support the EU?

Blogger SirHamster June 29, 2016 2:47 PM  

Charlie Baud wrote:Rusty, you're still being an obtuse retard.

The grain was stored by the Pharoah, not Joseph. The Egyptians were never enslaved and still held their own land, and selling their cattle relieved them of a burden.



Selling their bodies and land sounds like enslavement to me. I'm going to put the "selling their cattle relieved them of a burden" into the cognitive dissonance bin.

So when the money failed in the land of Egypt and in the land of Canaan, all the Egyptians came to Joseph and said, “Give us bread, for why should we die in your presence? For the money has failed.”

Then Joseph said, “Give your livestock, and I will give you bread for your livestock, if the money is gone.” So they brought their livestock to Joseph, and Joseph gave them bread in exchange for the horses, the flocks, the cattle of the herds, and for the donkeys. Thus he fed them with bread in exchange for all their livestock that year.

When that year had ended, they came to him the next year and said to him, “We will not hide from my lord that our money is gone; my lord also has our herds of livestock. There is nothing left in the sight of my lord but our bodies and our lands. Why should we die before your eyes, both we and our land? Buy us and our land for bread, and we and our land will be servants of Pharaoh; give us seed, that we may live and not die, that the land may not be desolate.”


Thanks for the interesting take, Rusty. Not sure I buy it, but it does fit.

Anonymous Charlie Baud June 29, 2016 7:39 PM  

"Selling their bodies and land sounds like enslavement to me."

No more than any other manual contract labour.

" I'm going to put the "selling their cattle relieved them of a burden" into the cognitive dissonance bin. "

Feeding Cattle during an extreme famiune is indeed a burdon. Really, the taking of the livestock, which they could not feed and which were going to die anyway, is an aspect of governmental mercy, not exploitation.

http://www.freebiblecommentary.org/old_testament_studies/VOL01BOT/VOL01BOT_47.html
https://bible.org/seriespage/47-proper-perspective-poverty-and-prosperity-genesis-4713-31
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/barnes/genesis/47.htm

Anonymous Mr. Rational June 29, 2016 11:54 PM  

Charlie Baud wrote:@13

Amazing how atheists always claim their support for abortion, a largely Jewish-controlled industry that has decimated white birthrates, as proof of their love for the West.

Amazing how fetus-worshippers refuse to acknowledge that White birthrates have dropped precipitously even where abortion was severely restricted (Romania, Germany, Japan).  If you want White birthrates to go up, make family formation affordable again!  White people have low time preference and need to see a future for their children before they'll have them.  Yes, legally re-segregating neighborhoods and schools will be hard, but people will flock to it with huge sighs of relief.

Elective abortion has its greatest impact on those with high time preference, e.g. NAMs.  This is why the Mississippi statistics look like they do; they're too dumb to avoid getting pregnant when they don't want to be, but barely smart enough to deal with the consequences in the only way left.  NAMs are our enemy:  we should not be interfering when they are making that particular mistake.

Therapeutic abortion also helps White birthrates.  Some families will not risk having a child if the odds of e.g. Down's or other defects are high.  A recent study found that some 37% of pregnancies were terminated after prenatal diagnosis of Down syndrome, comprising some 3100 abortions to 5300 live-born cases.  Diagnoses of e.g. neural tube defects no doubt also prompted couples to abort and try again.  If you force these couples to bear a child with a major birth defect, they will probably not have any more; you effectively terminate their posterity which you claim to be defending.

Some things you have to leave to the individual to decide.  Butt out.

Anonymous Mr. Rational June 30, 2016 12:27 AM  

EscapeVelocity wrote:School Prayer, Intelligent Design, removal of Christian iconography from the public sphere and religious trapping in govt buildings and institutions.
"Intelligent design" is re-labeled creationism.  "cdesignproponentsists" is the smoking gun, far more truthful than the "hide the decline" some love to tout as proof of some conspiracy in climate science.  The same forces pushing ID are also pushing climate science denial and ridiculous cosmologies aimed at supporting YEC.  Now why would that be?

These things are all fronts of dogma's war on truth.

Can you make a case why government buildings should have religious trappings?

Atheists are just another (perhaps the first) Cultural Marxist agitated minority group...supporting the cultural dismantling of Eruopean Christendom.
Yeah, when we say the earth neither has corners (isn't flat) and isn't the center of the universe, it's to attack Christendom, not because it's, like true.  Right?

Idiot.

Crude wrote:I've watched PZ Myers
As have I, for years.  I've seen him speak multiple times, and watched him go from defender of science to rabid advocate of cultural Marxism including HBD denial.  When he delivered a lecture I saw last year, he attacked The Bell Curve and A Troublesome Inheritance as "racist".  TBC barely touches the issue of race, and only gingerly.  I didn't feel like making a target of myself by asking him about The Ten Thousand Year Explosion.

I wouldn't be surprised if Myers is a false-flag operative, witting or not.

Yes, it was so nice wasn't it... until a particularly nasty religion got established there.

Yeah: 'Secular humanism/left-wing secular politics.'

Precisely WHICH religion turned Sweden into the rape capital of Europe, and Malmö into a no-go zone?

You act like the 'particularly nasty religion' got established there by fucking accident.
The non-accident was slipped under the radar by (((people))) like (((Barbara Lerner Specter))).

They were invited in, by irreligious and atheists.
You mis-spelled (((Marxists))).

Anonymous Mr. Rational June 30, 2016 12:30 AM  

Charlie Baud wrote:You can use all the anecdotal evidence you want, but the fact is that Christians are far more likely to oppose immigration than atheists are.
Catholic Relief and Lutheran Social Services are two of the biggest groups pushing the Islamic invasion of the United States using our money.  I've met far too many Cuckstians who practice "telescopic philanthropy", doing missions in e.g. Haiti when people next door need help.  Sorry, the No True Scotsman fallacy doesn't work here.

Crude wrote:I think there's a growing awareness among the irreligious that perhaps the right wing has more appeal than they thought (especially Trump), and even that maybe Christianity has some things going for it, regardless of their views on the ultimate truth of it all.
I've supported the broad agenda of the right (free markets vs. cronyism, closed borders, against both leftist and rightist social engineering) all my life.  I've been effectively atheist since I was 14.  Put that together.

Anonymous Charlie Baud July 04, 2016 9:38 PM  

"Amazing how fetus-worshippers refuse to acknowledge that White birthrates have dropped precipitously even where abortion was severely restricted (Romania, Germany, Japan)."

I doubt Japan had much of a white birth rate to begin with. You act like abortion is somehow seperate from the rest of the social planning/de-population agenda. For all your harping about "liberty", you're playing right into the hands of the globalists.

http://prepareforchange.net/2016/02/24/a-brief-history-of-social-engineering-and-psychological-warfare-in-the-united-states/

As Steve Sailor has pointed out, abortion has only increased illigitimacy.

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/pre-emptive-executions/

"Diagnoses of e.g. neural tube defects no doubt also prompted couples to abort and try again."

And which part of your ass did you pull that factoid out frim? All you have is speculation. And just like your Jewish libertaria puppet masters want you to, you're championing the murder of disabled children as some heroic act, oblivious to the fact that disabled children can and do grow up to lead productive lives and enrich the lives of their families.

"These things are all fronts of dogma's war on truth."

The only truth-obscuring dogma is Darwinism, which if you read this blog often enough would realize has no real proof.

"Can you make a case why government buildings should have religious trappings?"

The promotion and preservation of our cultural identity as a Christian nation.

"You mis-spelled (((Marxists)))."

And those Marxists were all atheists.

"Catholic Relief and Lutheran Social Services are two of the biggest groups pushing the Islamic invasion of the United States using our money."

And yet, the majority of Christians still oppose immigration while the majority of atheists support it. You're deflections aren't working.

"'ve met far too many Cuckstians who practice "telescopic philanthropy", doing missions in e.g. Haiti when people next door need help."

Yet, Christian charity still does more for local well being than do posturing atheists.

"Sorry, the No True Scotsman fallacy doesn't work here."

Then why do you constantly employ it to avoid addressing the fact that most leftists and marxists are and have been atheists?

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