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Monday, June 13, 2016

Two shooters

Mike Cernovich explains why the "lone wolf" explanation for the Orlando shootings doesn't hold up:
Assuming the shooter had tactical training, he’d be carrying a load bearing vest with 8 fully loaded 30 round magazines, for a total of 9 magazines (one on his weapon). That’s 270 rounds.

Mateen would also have a fully-loaded pistol with an unknown number of magazines. Let’s assume he was using a 9mm handgun, which holds a 15 round magazine, and that he was carrying 4 additional magazines. That’s 75 rounds of 9mm ammo.

In total, Mateen would have had 345 rounds of ammunition.

If you think 345 rounds of ammo is a lot, talk to some soldiers. People are hard to kill.

Also watch this video. You can hear 30 rounds go off in a matter of seconds. Yet somehow the shooter was killing people for 3 hours?

Talk to any soldier. Even at close ranges, that is not much ammo. According to the official story, Mateen averaged 3.45 rounds per casualty. That short of sheer killing power would make him the envy of even trained special operations soldiers.

If Mateen had over 345 rounds of ammo, where was he holding it?
And there is the fact that multiple witnesses have reported at least one additional shooter. Janiel Gonzalez, who was in the club, said, "I’m pretty sure it was more than one person. I heard two guns going at the same time."

I was dubious about the official story once I heard the final numbers. 50 killed out of 103 wounded is an absurdly high fatality rate, particularly with a high-velocity rifle that shoots rounds that are fairly small in diameter and tend to go through the body. Contrast this with the massacre at the Bataclan theatre, where three attackers armed with grenades and bomb vests killed 89 out of more than 300 wounded.

Now, obviously I have zero reliable information concerning what happened in Orlando. But based on the similarity of the Pulse attack to the Paris attacks, which involved three-man strike teams, I would conclude that there are may have been two gunmen who escaped as Omar Mateen kept the police occupied. Remember that it was reported that Mateen left the club and then came back. Why leave and then go back? Also, given the ethnicity of the club-goers, it wouldn't have been hard for the other shooters to shed their gear and pose as escaped hostages in the confusion.

Labels:

148 Comments:

Blogger Zaklog the Great June 13, 2016 8:25 AM  

Regarding fatality rate: Conditions in a crowded nightclub full of civilians are not nearly the same as conditions on a battlefield. I have no idea how much difference that makes, but it must make some difference.

Blogger Cataline Sergius June 13, 2016 8:29 AM  

I had had some speculative thoughts in that direction myself.

Let me be legally clear, I am not making any accusations here.

Public records show that Mateen was living with a 30-year-old woman named Noor Zahi Salman. A Facebook profile under the name “Noor Zahi” shows two photos of a woman posing with Mateen and a small boy. When reached by phone, Salman’s mother declined to comment.

First things first, strictly observant Muslims don't shack up. Sure they have sex (and it's always only been the second time she has ever done that) but they don't move in together. Does. Not. Happen. That plus the mortgage application and my money is on wife.

Blogger Johnny June 13, 2016 8:32 AM  

Good points. Given the survival numbers it will be hard to cover up if there were more than one, and a coverup is likely if it can be done. Better to minimize the event for PR purposes.

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer June 13, 2016 8:33 AM  

I was checking on calibers available for AR-15s when I found this on Wikipedia:

The AR-15 is a military assault rifle notably sold legally to citizens of the U.S., sometimes after perfunctory background checks, and other times without background checks (the "gun show loophole"). The AR-15 was used to murder 20 first graders and six adults at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, CT; to murder 49 innocent people at the Pulse nightclub in Orlando, FL; and to kill many others in the mass killings that are virtually unique to the U.S. due to the easy availability of the AR-15 and other military-grade weapons to anyone.

But, the point I wanted to bring up is that an M16 uses 5.56mm rounds which are designed not to punch through a person but to bounce around inside the body. This maximizes the damage, obviously. If a similar caliber round for the "assault rifle" was used then you would get the same result.

Anonymous paradox June 13, 2016 8:34 AM  

While always good to question the official story. The Yankee jihadist was shooting huddled together, cowering faggots. Hell, he probably killed 3 fags with one 9mm zipping through various AIDS infested bodies. A room full of 8 year old girls would have less causalities.

Blogger rumpole5 June 13, 2016 8:35 AM  

When I heard the cellphone video taken from outside I thought the same thing. More than one. Our leaders are worthless liars. Making ordinary citizens stand in lines at public buildings and airports does not accomplish anything! I am more angry at the PC fools in charge than I am the Islamic radicals. They are doing something to accomplish their stated goals while our traitorous politician s dither and pose. I loathe every one of them!

OpenID genericviews June 13, 2016 8:37 AM  

I fail to understand why there is speculation about how much ammo the man carried. This is an easily knowable fact. It can be calculated by counting them. If the conclusion is dependent on the ammo count being correct, then it is pointless to use the assumed amount. If the two are independent, then, again, it is pointless to calculate an assumed amount.

"Tactical training" is not in any way related to the choice of how much ammo to carry or how to carry it. There are as many opinions on this topic as there are tactical blogs.

Blogger daddynichol June 13, 2016 8:40 AM  

Why two+ hours before the police actively engage? That's a lot planning.

Blogger Cataline Sergius June 13, 2016 8:43 AM  

@8. daddynichol

Why two+ hours before the police actively engage? That's a lot planning.

Because he took hostages. That throws the cops automatically into negotiating mode. Its a spinal reflex with them. It's SOP.

And ISIS knows it. They did the same thing in Paris with the same result.

OpenID genericviews June 13, 2016 8:48 AM  

M16 uses 5.56mm rounds which are designed not to punch through a person but to bounce around inside the body.

That's a myth. 5.56mm bullets are subject to the same rules of physics as everything else. What really happens is that the bullets yaws or "tumbles" as it passes through soft tissue. Often, the bullet does not finish tumbling 90 degrees before exiting the body. A high amount of the damage is due to the metal jacket fragmenting off the core as the bullet suddenly stops moving forward. If the bullet strikes bone or metal object worn on the body, the path of the bullet may be deflected, again, according to the laws of physics, in a totally predictable manner.

5.56mm bullets are not inherently more deadly than any other rifle bullet that size, going that fast (between 2800 and 3200 pfs). They are not magical. They do not bounce around inside the body looking for a way out.

Blogger Cataline Sergius June 13, 2016 8:50 AM  

Which answers my question from yesterday; Why didn't he attack Disney World or Universal which are just down the road from Pulse?

He was planning from the start to take hostages. He chose his venue with that in mind.

Actually Paris should have been worse, the reason it wasn't was that one gendarme figured out what was going on and Charlie Marteled his way into the Bataclan.

The reason Paris wasn't worse was a one man cowboy operation.

Blogger JaimeInTexas June 13, 2016 8:54 AM  

Close proximity of the crowd, close quarters, a high velocity round that may injure more than one person, it adds up to high casualties to me. Plus, when the rounds begin to fly, a crowd in close quarters, what did they do? Did the freeze? Start running towards the exits? I understand that some just "hid" in the bathroom, trapped?
How was the rifle taken inside? It is summer and hot. Did the shooter wear something that allowed the concealment?

Blogger bob k. mando June 13, 2016 8:56 AM  

Cernovich
Yet somehow the shooter was killing people for 3 hours?



nobody was "killing people for 3 hours".

hell, he could have knifed ( if he had bothered to bring a blade with him ) every single person in the night club to death in that amount of time and not fired a single shot.

so there are, necessarily, large stretches of time when he wasn't doing anything but duck-and-cover, otherwise there would be zero survivors.

and all this fantasizing about "maximum number of magazines" is all well and good ... what if he brought a box or two of loose ammo and was reloading in the club?

remember, he's got multiple firearms. all he has to do is find a moderately defensible position with minimal cover so the night club patrons can't see what his hands are doing. anybody charges him ( and this is very rare ), he drops the current mag he's reloading and dumps a couple of pistol rounds into them.



it's also not going to serve any purpose trying to compare military rounds/kill ratio numbers in a situation like this. the vast majority of rounds expended on the battlefield is suppressing fire, never even aimed at anyone.

the night club situation is this clown entering the bathroom and shooting fish in a barrel. hell, if he had any brains he'd have procured a grenade or built a small IED for just this eventuality and just tossed that into the bathroom and closed the door.

but towelheads ain't very smart.

agree that we won't know more until forensics gets done with the crime scene investigation.

Blogger J A Baker June 13, 2016 8:57 AM  

The lone crazy gunman narrative halos to cast doubt that this tragedy was planned and ideologically motivated. But if there were more than one person involved it's hard to say that the guy just went crazy. No, this massacre, similar to the San Bernadino shooting was idilogically driven and planned far in advance. It's just bad timing g seeing as it happens in the same week Obama endorced Hillary who did such a bang up job as secretary of state.

Anonymous That Would Be Telling June 13, 2016 9:00 AM  

It's way too early to be labeling this possibility a conspiracy, the forensics people who would figure out this sort of thing have I'm sure barely begun their work, the bodies had to be removed before hand, after marking where they were. Plus a lot more work of that nature, interviewing survivors, analyzing the sounds from video recorders, and so on. But I agree that the body count smells, one way or another.

There's also one possible big difference between the Paris and Orlando night club attacks:

@4 Ron Winkleheimer:

But, the point I wanted to bring up is that an M16 uses 5.56mm rounds which are designed not to punch through a person but to bounce around inside the body.

To say that the original AR-15 round was "designed" to be anything in particular is a gross overstatement, beyond it being a high velocity "varmint" round. When it was analyzed in the '80s, it was discovered that its primary wounding mechanism is, if it's traveling at a high enough velocity, breaking at the cannelure into 2 parts, and at higher velocities that would be obtained in such close quarters, the back end fragmenting, all this while it's rotating front to back as all such rounds do when they change media like that. The SS109 bullet NATO standardized on was designed to do something irrelevant to this, but was observed to have the same wounding mechanism.

Whereas the original AK-47 round, the 7.62×39mm, is within 10% of the venerable .30-30 round, and simply makes one half turn as it exits, albeit making a wider path. The AK-74 round is of similar diameter and construction, but tumbles twice if the path is long enough.

So the 5.56x45mm round is, all things being equal, a more lethal round, but then again, we don't know exactly what ammo any of these terrorists used, although the ones in Paris are more likely to have used service ammo. But I assure you my 5.56 evil black rifle is loaded with much more effective ammo, and such is easily available in the US market.

So, significantly worse wounds, 2 or so hours past the "Golden Hour", that could at least partly account for the higher body count.

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer June 13, 2016 9:00 AM  

5.56mm bullets are not inherently more deadly than any other rifle bullet that size, going that fast (between 2800 and 3200 pfs). They are not magical. They do not bounce around inside the body looking for a way out.

I did not say they were magical. I did not say they bounced around "looking" for anything.

I said what you said, I just used different terminology.

. If the bullet strikes bone or metal object worn on the body, the path of the bullet may be deflected, again, according to the laws of physics, in a totally predictable manner.

I'm failing to see where I said that 5.56mm bullets did anything to violate the laws of physics.

the bullets yaws or "tumbles" as it passes through soft tissue.

OK, if it makes you feel better, from now on I will say tumbles instead of bounce.

The fact remains, 5.56mm bullets and bullets that size are designed to cause a maximum amount of damage to a human being.

Blogger Starbuck June 13, 2016 9:02 AM  

Sometimes I wonder. These mass shootings always seems to point to a second or third shooter. The official story is always one gunman. Then the people put posts up claiming to have talked to an eye witness claiming more then one shooter. There is never any other evidence brought out to the public.

I am not saying that it isn't true OR false. But I wish if it were true, someone could bring forth evidence the police or FBI could not deny. This would force them to take the investigation in a different direction. With said shooter dead, him being the patsy and all, it would be very interesting to see where the investigation led to.

I am not a true conspiracy theorist, but I got to say some of it actually makes sense. I just wish the stuff that is true (if it is true) could be brought out and exposed all the guilty parties involved.

Blogger mushroom June 13, 2016 9:04 AM  

The first thing a friend asked when we heard the count went up on Sunday morning was, "How many were hit by friendly fire?"

But I agreed with J A Baker above. Multiple shooters means it is clearly a planned terrorist attack. The dead jihadi holding hostages while his partners escape would match up with what we have seen in France and Belgium.

Anonymous Steve June 13, 2016 9:07 AM  

Eh, dunno.

But it's quite rare for Islamic atrocities to be one-man operations. They generally travel in packs, whether to rape little girls or shoot up airports.

So I wouldn't be surprised if he had accomplices.

Anonymous That Would Be Telling June 13, 2016 9:09 AM  

@13: bob k. mando:

what if he brought a box or two of loose ammo and was reloading in the club?

Or ammo in 10 round stripper clips, you can even buy them from ATK packed 3 per as issued to our troops, under their Federal brand as seconds or excess production from the DoD's Lake City plant. It doesn't take long to do this, but does take a clip guide and perhaps more attention to detail than the terrorist would have been able to muster.

Or he could have taken a larger than normal load of magazines, he wasn't planning on humping them for miles, he parked within a few tens of feet from the nightclub. He was planning on killing as many people as he could, and maybe he was a better shot than the average insha'Allah terrorist we've been accustomed to.

Anonymous Shnookums June 13, 2016 9:09 AM  

"I’m pretty sure it was more than one person. I heard two guns going at the same time."

Echoes? Even if not, that seems like something one could easily be confused about, heat of the moment, bullets flying, etc.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan June 13, 2016 9:10 AM  

Not a Castalia book, but "Days of Wrath" seems relevant, a year ago I would have said it was Foxtard click bait for the much mocked rubes, today an inevitable scenario

Blogger Derek Kite June 13, 2016 9:14 AM  

I have no idea what went on, but multiple shooters could be security or someone shooting back. Or lots of shooting high to create cover for moving people out.

If you were security that night, and these places do have serious security, what would you do? Try to clear people out. There would be panicked mayhem, likely close to standing room only. Try to get a group ready to move, create a diversion.

I doubt he did it alone, even if he was the only shooter that night.

His US provided security training did him well. These things are extraordinarily difficult to pull off.

Blogger Chris Mallory June 13, 2016 9:18 AM  

I would almost guarantee that in that close packed crowd, you had people wounded by bullet fragments, bone fragments and spalling from the environment.

Kevin Harris was seriously wounded by bullet and bone fragments when Vicki Weaver was killed.

Blogger Nick S June 13, 2016 9:18 AM  

JaimeInTexas wrote:Close proximity of the crowd, close quarters, a high velocity round that may injure more than one person, it adds up to high casualties to me. Plus, when the rounds begin to fly, a crowd in close quarters, what did they do? Did the freeze? Start running towards the exits? I understand that some just "hid" in the bathroom, trapped?

How was the rifle taken inside? It is summer and hot. Did the shooter wear something that allowed the concealment?


Yeah. I figure he got a few twofers in the beginning, with all the snuggling and whatnot.

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer June 13, 2016 9:21 AM  

Or he could have taken a larger than normal load of magazines, he wasn't planning on humping them for miles, he parked within a few tens of feet from the nightclub.

Could have been carrying a gym bag full of magazines. Apparently he got into a shoot out outside the club with a cop on the way in. Maybe the cop (who was working security) wanted to look inside a bag the shooter was carrying that held the rifle/mags.

Anonymous Joe Blowe June 13, 2016 9:24 AM  

There are apparently many witnesses to multiple shooters.

http://82.221.129.208/ifyouareinamericayouprobablycantseethisad8.html

Blogger Roger G2 June 13, 2016 9:26 AM  

Cernovich is on point here. And thanks for conjuring up an old memory. For combat, they'll load you down worse than any mule with ammo, AT4's, Dragon rounds, grenades, etc. Everything except food and snivel gear. Yeah, no room for any of that. Huh.
We used to say, "if you're comfortable, you're wrong."
Meaning, of course, if you're warm, dry, feeling rested, not hungry, etc, you're doing something wrong and you'd better square that ass away. You probably have room for more ammo.

Blogger Sheila4g June 13, 2016 9:26 AM  

From what I've read (and it's obviously an open question as to how accurate any of the reports are) he wasn't just shooting, but talking to people - telling them America needs to stop bombing ISIS. That lends credence to the argument he wasn't shooting for 3 hours - who knows how much time he was shooting and how much time he was talking?

I would also presume the shooter knew the venue - had been there before. Was he a regular? If so, he probably knew many of those he was shooting. Was he proselytizing? Reports also said he asked people their race before shooting. I wonder how many of the Mestizo victims self-identified as White? Would he have held particular animus for Cubans? I've only seen a handful of photos of victims, and as Vox noted, most are brown.

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer June 13, 2016 9:32 AM  

Eye witness reports are simply unreliable. Especially in a situation where you are afraid for your life and trying to escape, along with several dozen other people.

The situation is chaotic, being a nightclub I would imagine dimly lit, people are screaming, and lot of the people there might never have seen a real gun before.

I remember seeing a news report awhile ago where someone called the police reporting someone was walking around with a rifle and when the police responded it turned out to be some guy from the local government using some sort of tool to sample/test water.

And that was during broad daylight and nobody was shooting.

Anonymous Moonbear June 13, 2016 9:36 AM  

As a former soldier I strongly disagree with civilians trapped in a building being hard to kill.
I would argue this man was incredibly inept. Head or heart is a one bullet kill fail that you can also shoot both lungs.

Breivik killed 77 and injured 319 out in the open with people running all around and he was one man.

Anonymous antipater_1 June 13, 2016 9:39 AM  

Anders Breivik shot dead 69 young people at a Workers' Youth League summer camp on the island of Utøya in Norway 5 years ago so it certainly is possible for Omar Mateen to have acted alone.

Anonymous Rhino June 13, 2016 9:53 AM  

Honestly, I'm a soldier and I find it believable.

Blogger Markku June 13, 2016 9:58 AM  

I take the same view. Soldiers need tons of ammo because the enemy is trained. They know when to give supporting fire, to move during supporting fire, and you need supporting fire of your own for your own to move. Not so with sitting duck civilians.

The only remarkable thing here are the eyewitness reports about two weapons firing simultaneously.

Blogger Giraffe June 13, 2016 9:59 AM  

There are other types of ammo for the AR-15. Soft points. Expanding hollow points. Plastic tipped varmint bullets. Bullets designed for deer. People shoot FMJ because it is cheaper, but it isn't that much cheaper. Law enforcemetn would be smart to keep quiet if he did in fact use that. But 50 out of 100 isn't that high a kill rate for an AR and 3 hours for people to bleed.

Anonymous Anonymous June 13, 2016 10:01 AM  

Shh, just Shh. M16? Is it still the 1970's? Modern AR's are modeled after the M4. Shorter barrel collapsible stock. It's a nato caliber. Uses 5.56 or .223. Mostly in 55 or 62 grain bullets. For comparison the old M1 or 30.06 is most popular in 150 and 180 grain. Purpose of the M4/AR is to wound the enemy idealy removing two others from the fight to tend to the casualty. SFC Woody

Anonymous Takin' a Look June 13, 2016 10:01 AM  

I just read Jim Stone after psy-ops false flags like this. He calms me down and makes me think. He's got a great comment from David Steele.

Blogger Elocutioner June 13, 2016 10:01 AM  

It's a plausible theory. What I find interesting is that you have 300 ppl, many/most are narcissists, packed into a nightclub and we don't have any cell phone videos or pictures from the event?

Anonymous Elijah Rhodes June 13, 2016 10:05 AM  

There was a report on Facebook that someone was shot 11 times and survived. That's highly suspect. It was probably 11 bullet fragments.

At close range firing into a crowd, you're going to get a lot of ancillary damage beyond your primary target. Bullets fragment, and they can, and do over penetrate, particularly at very close range. What type of ammo did he use? Different ammo designs have very different penetration characteristics.

3 hours is also a lot of time for people with survivable injuries to bleed out. I suspect the casualty rate was much higher because of that. I don't recall there being a long standoff in Paris.

It should also be noted that police investigators are always more suspicious when all the witnesses agree than when they don't. Multiple people during trauma never have exactly the same experience.

That's all to say, it's too early to proclaim how many shooters there were. I'd like to see a lot more info, along with the ballistic reports first.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan June 13, 2016 10:06 AM  

I'll wait for weaponsman to weigh in on the topics at hand

Blogger Johnny June 13, 2016 10:07 AM  

There is a certain amount of unreliable info here about bullets.

As for the M16 rifle, when the gun was first introduced the more or less standard military round in most armies was about 30 caliber. The old 30-06 round was the basis for the US military 308 round introduced in WWII. Both are 30 cal as is the AK47 with its 7.62 bore. (7.62mm bore diameter about equals 30 cal)

To allow the troopers to carry more bullets they dropped the size of the M16 round from 7.62mm down to 5.56mm. The new round goes a little faster than most already fast 308 or 30-06 rounds, but is usually not as lethal owing to smaller size. Size counts. A 5.56 round has less energy than a 7.62 round and a 50 cal rifle bullet is apt to rip your arm off. Perhaps to offset this to some extent they rifled the barrel with a lower rate of twist, spinning the bullet less, and causing it to tumble at a distance. At close range this has only nominal effect because any bullet will tumble after hitting a target.

Military doctrine often stresses penetration more than killing power. They want the bullet to get through the barrier or body armor and do some damage. Wounding an enemy is often as valuable as killing him. This thinking produces "full metal jacket" bullets that do not expand or break up easily, penetrate well, but are less likely to kill.

The hunting population definitely wants bullets that kill and kill quickly, sometimes called take down power. Thus they favor bullets that are soft and expand on impact. "Hollow point" is one form of this.

Despite the gun’s military pedigree, if the shooter had any sense at all he was using civilian hunting rounds. Hey, he was hunting humans.

Blogger sconzey June 13, 2016 10:08 AM  

Whether or not there is another gunman, I find the idea of a cover-up implausible.

This would be exactly the opposite policy to that pursed for the Bataclan, for Charlie Hebdo, Boston Marathon and San Bernardino. In all of those circumstances, the government and the media were open about the number of attackers, even when they didn't yet have them in custody (or even know who they were).

It is possible however that there were multiple gunmen, but the police and intelligence agencies don't know-- as Vox said it's possible they might have ditched their gear and pretended to be civilians.

(It's important not to forget that there are other plausible explanations for the high number of deaths, most of which have been mentioned by others.)

Anonymous JC NRA June 13, 2016 10:13 AM  

I think Mike needs to stick to his area of expertise. A lot of folks here have hit it on the head – it’s very easy to carry extra ammo. Forget reloading or stripper clips: 8 mag chest rig, 8 mag active shooter bag over the shoulder, a few in pockets, several on the belt. The jihadi was no stranger to PT, so he could EASILY have had twice what Mike proposed.
At close quarters, with an AR and a red dot – hit rates of 2 per second seem feasible when you’re in a shooting gallery. And at 2700 fps, give or take, don’t forget about the hydrostatic shock of high velocity hitting fluid. I’ve seen morgue shots of a guy who took a 5.56mm to the head at bad breath distance and it vacated his melon like a carved out pumpkin.

Not saying there wasn’t a second shooter, but the arguments for it here are silly. Hit the range for some mag dumps and tell me how slow it sounds …

Anonymous TLM June 13, 2016 10:15 AM  

This footage from inside the club should help.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPJDwWrWjFA

Anonymous Anonymous June 13, 2016 10:15 AM  

Again dude, no. NATO doesn't fight to win. It has rules. You can't win wars trying to follow rules. The 5.56 is designed to wound allowing the casualty another opportunity to kill you. Hence our whole kinder gentler military. Ask any euro soldier before they were pozzed by nato. They hate the 5.56. Used to fist fight when scavaging bodies over the enemies 7.62s. Think you might be confusing the two. Not trying to make ya mad just give you a heads up. Hate when people talk about stuff they know nothing about. SFC Woody

Blogger Badmojo June 13, 2016 10:22 AM  

Most of the reports have said "injured in the attack" and not "injured by gunfire" - is that meaningful?

Is it possible that the stampede plus a multi-hour siege just gave them time to bleed out?

Anonymous patrick kelly June 13, 2016 10:24 AM  

This was my first take also, that it was a very high body count for one guy with two weapons. I'm not as sure now.

The one clip I watched with audio had a relatively slow rate of fire, it was consistent, rhythmic, and sustained, but not even as fast as what I would normally consider a double tap.

The thing that bothers me is his ability to do this without anyone attempting to stop or even interrupt or distract him. Yeah I know, scared rabbits and sheep not inclined to do that.

If he found a relatively secure position hard to approach it would limit his field of fire and maneuverability. I guess anyone not running away in a panic would stick out and draw his fire.

Don't really know, I've never been in situation like that, hope I never am.

Blogger Chris Mallory June 13, 2016 10:30 AM  

"His US provided security training did him well."

I don't know how much security training he had. There has been talk about him helping to transport illegals on a DHS contract. But according to the accounts I have read, this guy was just an ID checker at a gated subdivision.

He supposedly washed out of a police academy somewhere and had a criminal justice/police science degree not mention if it was an actual degree or just a certificate.

Blogger Tom Nichol June 13, 2016 10:31 AM  

Since the shooter was involved in security work, could he have been working the venue as a security guard and simply brought in his gear? I've not reviewed all the information on him do know one way or the other.

There are so many questions surrounding this story, but what really stands out is the incompetency of the FBI interview of this guy (and others), his personal history and yet, he gets recent approval to purchase firearms. Something is way off on this whole event, but we all know the primary push is for more gun control regardless of the truth.

Blogger Tom Nichol June 13, 2016 10:31 AM  

Since the shooter was involved in security work, could he have been working the venue as a security guard and simply brought in his gear? I've not reviewed all the information on him do know one way or the other.

There are so many questions surrounding this story, but what really stands out is the incompetency of the FBI interview of this guy (and others), his personal history and yet, he gets recent approval to purchase firearms. Something is way off on this whole event, but we all know the primary push is for more gun control regardless of the truth.

Blogger Chris Mallory June 13, 2016 10:37 AM  

"Since the shooter was involved in security work, could he have been working the venue as a security guard and simply brought in his gear?"

It sounds like the first cop involved was paid security at the club. Doubtful they would be paying off duty cops and a uniformed security company. They probably had the cop patrolling the parking lot and a couple of bouncers on the inside.

Blogger JaimeInTexas June 13, 2016 10:39 AM  

A snapchat vid I saw, about 9 rounds (did not count) were fired, apparently the first set of shots, before anyone realized there was shooting going on.

Blogger Nick S June 13, 2016 10:43 AM  

Jihad makes Buckaroos soft.

Chuck Tingle ‏@ChuckTingle:

LONESOME TRAIN: whooooo whoooo
CHUCK: get outta here train
LONESOME TRAIN: whoooo whoooo
CHUCK: I SAID GET OUTTA HERE TRAIN YOURE SAD DAYS

Anonymous Shorty June 13, 2016 10:47 AM  

It's entirely possible. The deaths not immediately caused by a hit to a critical CNS area or massive hemorrhage are eventually caused by shock, which has to be treated pretty fast. Going in, shooting 50 people, then killing yourself leaves EMS a lot of available time once the scene is called safe for medics. When your shooter is still actively moving, with the potential for explosives involved, people who would otherwise get treated and live end up in decompensated shock and die on a glittery floor.

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer June 13, 2016 10:48 AM  

He supposedly washed out of a police academy somewhere and had a criminal justice/police science degree not mention if it was an actual degree or just a certificate.

I saw a news article stating that he had an Associate Degree in something called Criminal Justice Technology, which would be the sort of degree a wannabe cop would get.

Blogger Jim June 13, 2016 10:49 AM  

Not saying its not possible, but just how does 1 guy by his lonesome shoot 100 people at close range without being overwhelmed but sheer numbers? That's some kinda mutant Sgt. York/Terminator in int he police dept combo.

Anonymous BigGayKoranBurner June 13, 2016 10:54 AM  

There is video from clubs or at least 1/4 second security footage unless the sand nigger was smart enough to damage it. That said the cops still have not released security footage from the Waco biker shootout which was most likely cops shooting to protect a spotted undercover cop.

If you were security that night, and these places do have serious security

Oy vey someone claiming to know the security of gay bars better than me.

There was a report on Facebook that someone was shot 11 times and survived. That's

There are didndus that have been shot 17 times by cops that survived.

jihadist was shooting huddled together, cowering faggots. Hell, he probably killed 3 fags with one ... A room full of 8 year old girls would have less causalities

Sadly I can't argue against this. When I was in Miami for a travel contract I couldn't find a single gay guy that didn't do drugs.

I fail to understand why there is speculation about how much ammo the man carried. This is an easily knowable fact.

Do you think all the affirmative action cops can count all the spent brass and subtract what they shot?

Why two+ hours before the police actively engage? That's a lot planning.

Either cowards or they didn't want to stop it for PC reasons.

How was the rifle taken inside? It is summer and hot.

Is that a mosin nagant in your pocket or are you happy to see me.

Anonymous Moonbear June 13, 2016 10:54 AM  

@53 Millennials.
People are so disenfranchised from reality that when it hits they go into shock, they are also extremely egotistical and would sooner hide to be the last one shot than to actively defend others.
The wonders of diversity, the celebration of the ego.

Anonymous Baseball Savant June 13, 2016 10:55 AM  

Nate, if you are around, what do you think about this?

Blogger Dexter June 13, 2016 11:01 AM  

what if he brought a box or two of loose ammo and was reloading in the club?

LMAO that is hilariously stupid.

"Everybody sit tight while I stuff mags!"

Anonymous rubberducky June 13, 2016 11:04 AM  

I think it is extremely likely that he prepared the grounds. For instance I heard that the back doors of the club were padlocked. For many the only way out was through the shooter. What? Why? There's a good chance he is the one who padlocked the doors.

I heard one survivor say that the killer went around shooting the wounded, shooting anything that moved on the floor. So I am surprised that the body count isn't higher if that's the case.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan June 13, 2016 11:07 AM  

10AM and not a single email from Midway USA or Brownells let me assume they are recalibrating their prices

Anonymous andon June 13, 2016 11:08 AM  

look at the bizarre responses I get online when I point out that mooslims hate gays:

"You are helping ISIS recruit their next generation. If you call all muslims evil then they will feel like they don't belong here and will resent America."

>>(who the hell wants mooslims to feel like they belong here?)

"You don't think it's possible that alienating Muslims like you do could contribute to their radicalization?"

Blogger Chris Mallory June 13, 2016 11:09 AM  

"How was the rifle taken inside? It is summer and hot."

An AR with a 16" barrel and the stock fully collapsed will have an OAL of 31" or so. It would easily fit in a 36" duffel bag.

BGS could answer better than me, how likely would it be to get a duffel bag into a gay dance club?

Blogger RC June 13, 2016 11:11 AM  

I believe in Magic Sand. Deport them all. Then try for treason all who aided and abetted.

There may or may not have been other parties involved but a competent single shooter, barring armed resistance, could pull this off without much difficulty. Those untrained in the arts would stand in awe at the speed and accuracy of a well-trained shooter, most notably how quickly one can reload and resume sustained fire.

That is why the wise man invests in defensive training. When confronted with a threat if you cannot produce your weapon and fire in two seconds, your chances for seeing the next sunrise go down dramatically.

Blogger Chris Mallory June 13, 2016 11:11 AM  

@59 I had a couple from Midway and one from Gallery of Guns offering a Bushmaster XM15 for under $750.

Anonymous Be Not Afraid June 13, 2016 11:12 AM  

If there is a wife and she was an accomplice, she's probably already on a plane to Saudi or one of the 'Stans courtesy of the US Government.

Blogger RobertT June 13, 2016 11:16 AM  

Very astute observations. Doing the job the media isn't doing.

Blogger RobertT June 13, 2016 11:17 AM  

Very astute observations. Doing the job the media isn't doing.

Anonymous Moonbear June 13, 2016 11:21 AM  

@60 "You don't think it's possible that alienating Muslims like you do could contribute to their radicalization?"

Ask them if they think it is a coincidence that Muslims have been relentlessly attacking Europe for 1400 years.
Or if it is possible that not alienating them have contributed to their success in performing terrorism.

Anonymous Gen. Kong June 13, 2016 11:23 AM  

The one thing we can rely on is this:

Government, Police and Lügenpresse (Propaganda Ministry) always lie. It's what they're paid to do. All upper levels occupied by Diabolical Narcissists by now. They lie more naturally than they draw breath.

Even if Magicdirtmud Matteen was alone, why did he have a job with G4S working for the DHS, plus (not confirmed yet) the special federal license which allows you to carry a mini-gun into a church? - after being on the FBI's watch list??? Was he using a select fire M-4? Not that we can expect police and government to admit if so. Lügenpresse is usually so stupid about weapons that everything's a assault rifle/machine gun to them.

Cui bono?

Have the ruling elite been drinking their own Kool-Aid? Or, are they still counting on the large numbers of public edumacayshun indoctrinated dumbasses to fall for the bullishit story being already concocted (Gun control needed now!)?

Anonymous Jake June 13, 2016 11:24 AM  

He had 3 hours to go around and shoot his victims in the head at close range. I would expect efficient use of ammo under those conditions.

Blogger Chris Mallory June 13, 2016 11:30 AM  

"How was the rifle taken inside? It is summer and hot." Part 2

The van they said he used was parked under a blue awning at the rear of the club, opposite the front entrance. A fence, I would guess 6' or so by the pictures surrounds the back and the side of the club where the patio is located. The fence looks to have an 8-12" opening at the bottom. He could have staged his weapon and gear outside the fence by his van and pulled it under the fence from the inside or simply climbed over the fence.

It is all just speculation until they release more details.

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer June 13, 2016 11:30 AM  

Ask them if they think it is a coincidence that Muslims have been relentlessly attacking Europe for 1400 years.

I was reading "The Great Heresies" the other day and for some reason I was struck, as in chilled to the bone struck, by how miraculous the survival of Christian civilization is.

The Muslims came pretty damn close to conquering it several times.

Anonymous FP June 13, 2016 11:31 AM  

Other factors, like mentioned in the Jim Stone link above make me think there were more than one shooter, not that he killed/wounded so many. That so much of reddit and facebook were censored yesterday is suspicious.

The anti-gun narrative is going to fail miserably especially with the guy being a long term employee of a security/merc company that was hauling illegals around the country. FBI investigates the guy twice but what we need is more gun laws...

Blogger Nationalist Flicka June 13, 2016 11:38 AM  

**"You don't think it's possible that alienating Muslims like you do could contribute to their radicalization?"**

People don't think, they just repeat.

Anonymous andon June 13, 2016 11:39 AM  

FP June 13, 2016 11:31 AM
That so much of reddit and facebook were censored yesterday is suspicious.


in the case of Reddit, who is behind it? I bet there is pressure coming from govt. people need to get used to censorship here and there before they can really apply it

Blogger The Kurgan June 13, 2016 11:39 AM  

There may or may not have been more than one shooter, but Mike's ideas are very poor.

Blogger Chris Mallory June 13, 2016 11:45 AM  

Eyewitness interview video

https://twitter.com/ABC2020/status/742227271629430784

The victim makes it sound like Omar was reloading mags, that he didn't want to shoot blacks, and that Omar claimed to have 3 accomplices.

Blogger Chris Mallory June 13, 2016 11:45 AM  

Eyewitness interview video

https://twitter.com/ABC2020/status/742227271629430784

The victim makes it sound like Omar was reloading mags, that he didn't want to shoot blacks, and that Omar claimed to have 3 accomplices.

Blogger YIH June 13, 2016 11:45 AM  

Cataline Sergius wrote:Which answers my question from yesterday; Why didn't he attack Disney World or Universal which are just down the road from Pulse?

He was planning from the start to take hostages. He chose his venue with that in mind.

Actually Paris should have been worse, the reason it wasn't was that one gendarme figured out what was going on and Charlie Marteled his way into the Bataclan.

The reason Paris wasn't worse was a one man cowboy operation.

Disney World, by design, is a 'harder' target. General public access to it is rather restricted - i.e. there are only a few ways in or out - there are no fences around it to keep gate-crashers out because there doesn't need to be. Unlike Disneyland or Disney Paris, it was designed to be remote from residences and other businesses (Walt intended that from the start - after seeing seedy tourist crap rapidly surround Disneyland). You have to drive a few miles to even reach the parking areas. IOW, without a vehicle, you can't do much of anything there. There is public transportation inside Disney property (the monorail and buses) and public transportation to/from via the Orlando bus system, but as you guess, it can be slow and unpredictable going.
It would be a poor and difficult choice for a terrorist strike.
Universal/Sea World are not so isolated but would also be difficult to pull off a large assault.
Nightclubs, malls, even schools would be better choices for a large number of targets and easier access to them.
That said, yesterday I mentioned ''why didn't they frisk?''. Well it turned out this Johnny Jihad was hired as Security by the club. Not only would he have access to areas that would generally be off-limits to the general public, he'd know most of the building - including stash spots for weapons/ammo that few others would even notice.

Anonymous Moonbear June 13, 2016 11:46 AM  

@71 I was reading "The Great Heresies" the other day and for some reason I was struck, as in chilled to the bone struck, by how miraculous the survival of Christian civilization is.

Indeed, the same thing happened to them as did with the mongols, they encountered the Germanic tribe in war when they felt threatened.
Maybe a coincidence, maybe not. :)
All I know is fighting white people in war tends to end poorly, which is probably why they have changed tactics now after 1400 years of banging their heads against the wall.
The scary thing is they have inside help now.

Anonymous Mudder June 13, 2016 11:52 AM  

I don't think this holds up. Either you'd have armed guys leaving the scene, or you'd have additional guns and gear laying around the club. In either case, the police would know there were additional suspects. While I have no doubt that the government is incompetent and shady in equal measure, I think they would be highly motivate to prevent additional attacks and there would be a shelter in place warning issued.

Blogger dc.sunsets June 13, 2016 11:52 AM  

Should people importing & settling "refugees" today be held criminally liable for the slaughters they or their children commit in future years or even decades?


I say the records are examined & the politicians & resettlement agency people involved in importing this clown's parents be indicted as accessories before the fact.

Anonymous rubberducky June 13, 2016 11:54 AM  

How could he have got his rifle in? Simple, he grabbed his rifle and walked right in. The first ones to go down were probably the bouncers. What were they going to do?

Blogger Markku June 13, 2016 11:55 AM  

Wounding an enemy is often as valuable as killing him. This thinking produces "full metal jacket" bullets that do not expand or break up easily, penetrate well, but are less likely to kill.

Often more valuable. The best thing is to have the enemy die very slowly, and have him scream all through the night. You have a sniper watching it, and when they come on a rescue mission you shoot them, and so forth. Now you have more dying enemies. Even if they wise up and just let the soldier scream, it is EXTREMELY demoralizing to the enemy to listen to it.

Blogger James Dixon June 13, 2016 11:55 AM  

> 10AM and not a single email from Midway USA or Brownells let me assume they are recalibrating their prices

Ruger stock is up almost 10% so far today.

Blogger Nick S June 13, 2016 12:00 PM  

The only way to stop jihadis is to thoroughly discredit the foundations of their ideology using their own metrics with the Koran and Hadith. I'm skeptical of whether or not that can even be done, but insofar as it could our government is so completely invested in the idiotic over-the-top seperation of church and state abstractions that they can't even talk about it in any intelligent way. Gun control is just a red herring to keep from addressing the real issue.

Maybe now that they've hit Obama where he lives, he might change course, but I doubt it.

Blogger dc.sunsets June 13, 2016 12:03 PM  

Regarding AR 5.56 ammo, even the .mil uses 77 grain open tip match (OTM) bullets whenever available. At $1/retail trigger pull they're not cheap but if this clown was just crazy & not inbred/stupid, it would account for much.

Fortunately, as with aviation safety it's not a lack of opportunity that protects us so much as a dearth of relatively well-informed, suicidal demons available.

PS: would it be a leftist propaganda windfall if this clown used 60 or 100 round magazines? Obviously they exist, and some are reliable. (Although if this clown just bought his guns recently, he might not have even fired them for function check.)

Blogger dc.sunsets June 13, 2016 12:11 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger dc.sunsets June 13, 2016 12:15 PM  

As with the Waco biker bar melee, the odds of us ever knowing what the evidence actually shows (e.g., how many spent cases were recovered, or whether any persons other than the guy described as the perpetrator were hit by police bullets) are essentially zero.

Anonymous old man in a villa June 13, 2016 12:20 PM  

Well, well, well, what have we here- the 911 call records for all of Orlando were mysteriously unavailable after the server that hosts the recordings at Broadcastify went down around midnight, just before the shooting and weren't back online until after the attack ended.

http://forums.radioreference.com/broadcastify-live-audio-listener-support/334791-nightclub-shooting-archives-missing.html

Are there no end to the coincidences?

Blogger dc.sunsets June 13, 2016 12:20 PM  

Dr. Martin Fackler wrote extensively about the wounding effects of FMJ ammo in 30 cal (30-06, 308 and 7.62x39) as well as 5.56.

His deep experience in the surgical treatment of such contradicts most of the "shoot to wound" baloney that is otherwise "common knowledge."

Bottom line: fmj is only good for training. At most distances all fmj bullets do is punch nice, clean, often survivable holes in people, a fact reconfirmed by the Stockton school yard shooting by Patrick Purdy.

Anonymous Difster June 13, 2016 12:31 PM  

Me: Ex-Marine Infantry

While it's entirely possible that he didn't act alone, there is absolutely no reason that a single shooter in a closed, dimly lit building could not affect that many casualties.

It's likely that some people died as the result of stampeding.
It's likely that some people died as the result of friendly fire.

It's possible and even likely that the shooter took some sort of performance enhancing drug that kept him extremely focused and augmented his already determined mindset.

As for reports of multiple gun fire - It's inside a building. In such chaos, it might be hard for even a well trained person to figure out how many firearms there were. It's also entirely possible that he was firing the rifle with one hand and the pistol with the other. They would each make a distinct sound and in that environment, if you're more than 25 feet away from it, you can't tell where it's coming from unless you see the muzzle flash.

The speculation of multiple shooters is not unreasonable, but as of yet, there's no convincing evidence that there was and there is no reason to think a single shooter could not have done this.

Blogger Giraffe June 13, 2016 12:39 PM  

Hysterical faggots make the best eyewitnesses.

Blogger Chris Mallory June 13, 2016 12:40 PM  

Omar was trying to "friend" other homo establishments in Orlando on Facebook.

http://eastorlandopost.com/report-orlando-nightclub-shooter-cased-other-gay-clubs

Anonymous Bob June 13, 2016 12:40 PM  

Rumors as to at least one accomplice have been flying around since the shooting. It seems to fit the M.O. of many of these attackers:

- Boston Bombers (2)
- Paris (cells)
- San Bernardino (2+)
- Chattanooga (assuming shooter didn't drive while firing)

Still awaiting word on whether/how the foiled attempt in California is connected to the Orlando shootings. Similar time of attack, same type of target, same types of ordinance - hard to believe it's just a coincidence.

Anonymous Difster June 13, 2016 12:41 PM  

I guess you could say he had a GUERRILLA MINDSET. (h/t Josh & Glenn)

Blogger YIH June 13, 2016 12:41 PM  

Just as a reminder: The Station nightclub fire in '03.
No moslims, no firearms, 100 dead, 230 injuries. Complete with drawings of the floor plan and locations of the victims. 31 of them were stacked up like cordwood right by the entrance/bouncer area.
So yes, the 'fish in a barrel' scenario is plausible.

Anonymous Anonymous June 13, 2016 12:42 PM  

There was a long delay before the wounded inside could be helped. Many were probably just wounded in an extremity but bled out because of the long delay. This from a paramedic relative explaining the high kill/wounded rate.

Anonymous Anonymous June 13, 2016 12:43 PM  

Looks like 3 cops were firing at the guy. In a crowded space.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/12/us/orlando-shooting-timeline/index.html

Anonymous Paul June 13, 2016 12:44 PM  

Looks like 3 cops were returning fire. In a small crowded space.

Blogger Chris Mallory June 13, 2016 12:45 PM  

@94 "Still awaiting word on whether/how the foiled attempt in California is connected to the Orlando shootings."

They are probably not related. SMPD is walking back some of their earlier statements.

"Santa Monica Police Chief Jacqueline Seabrooks initially said on Twitter that the 20-year-old man told one of her officers after he was arrested that he wanted “to harm Gay Pride event.”

But Lt. Saul Rodriguez said later the tweet was a misstatement. He said the suspect told investigators that he was going to the Pride festival but said he did not make additional statements about his intentions.

"It was a misstatement," Rodriguez said. "Unfortunately, she was given incorrect information initially, which indicated that that statement was made; however, that statement never was made. He did indicate that he was planning on going to the Pride festival but beyond anything as far as motives or his intentions that statement was never made nor did any officer receive that statement.""

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-gay-pride-la-weapons-20160612-snap-story.html

Blogger Giraffe June 13, 2016 12:46 PM  

"Bottom line: fmj is only good for training. At most distances all fmj bullets do is punch nice, clean, often survivable holes in people, a fact reconfirmed by the Stockton school yard shooting by Patrick Purdy."

Sometimes. The rifle/bullet system was designed so that the bullet will tumble, and the fmj will break at the cannellure into two fragments. Or, if it hits bone it's a big mess.

There are many variations in rifle and ammo today, so FMJ ammo may not tumble as readily. But it isn't a piece of cake to get shot.

Blogger YIH June 13, 2016 12:49 PM  

@91 Difster:
It's possible and even likely that the shooter took some sort of performance enhancing drug that kept him extremely focused and augmented his already determined mindset.
Meth. Dirt cheap, lasts several hours, commonly available. Used extensively by all sides in WWII.

Blogger Chris Mallory June 13, 2016 1:00 PM  

@94 "Still awaiting word on whether/how the foiled attempt in California is connected to the Orlando shootings."

They are probably not related. SMPD is walking back some of their earlier statements.

"Santa Monica Police Chief Jacqueline Seabrooks initially said on Twitter that the 20-year-old man told one of her officers after he was arrested that he wanted “to harm Gay Pride event.”

But Lt. Saul Rodriguez said later the tweet was a misstatement. He said the suspect told investigators that he was going to the Pride festival but said he did not make additional statements about his intentions.

"It was a misstatement," Rodriguez said. "Unfortunately, she was given incorrect information initially, which indicated that that statement was made; however, that statement never was made. He did indicate that he was planning on going to the Pride festival but beyond anything as far as motives or his intentions that statement was never made nor did any officer receive that statement.""

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-gay-pride-la-weapons-20160612-snap-story.html

Blogger Chris Mallory June 13, 2016 1:00 PM  

Omar was trying to "friend" other homo establishments in Orlando on Facebook.

http://eastorlandopost.com/report-orlando-nightclub-shooter-cased-other-gay-clubs

Blogger Nate June 13, 2016 1:00 PM  

Part of the high fatality rate is explained by huge amount of time he had. He could take some time and go around finish folks off with head shots.

Anonymous BGKB June 13, 2016 1:00 PM  

Leftists are talking about standing together, isn't that what let one gunman kill over 50 people because they stood together?

BGS could answer better than me, how likely would it be to get a duffel bag into a gay dance club?

If it was Miami he could just say it was full of cocaine. Seriously if he was willing to shoot anyone stopping him where couldn't he take a duffle bag?

The victim makes it sound like Omar was reloading mags, that he didn't want to shoot blacks

They smell bad enough when not wounded, just think of how many showerheads Milos shower has.

The only way to stop jihadis is to thoroughly discredit the foundations of their ideology using their own metrics with the Koran and Hadith

Public service announcements with pics of Mohamad blowing a pig, them moslems chimp at like the San Bernardino x-mass party instead of well thought out attacks.

Anonymous BGKB June 13, 2016 1:08 PM  

Oh my it turns out the guy heading to the Hollywood gay parade with guns was a gay Bern in hell supporter.
http://www.gaypatriot.net/2016/06/12/santa-monica-terror-suspect-doesnt-fit-the-desired-profile/

"The officers said that the other complainants and witness stories were consistent and none seemed intoxicated. Two of them referred to an incident earlier in the day in which Howell had pointed his gun at his boyfriend."

Anonymous Martin Ambrose June 13, 2016 1:23 PM  

I pretty much am just assuming that half of the casualties at the club were caused by the SWAT team engaging gunman.

Blogger Arthur Isaac June 13, 2016 1:42 PM  

It is a conspiracy though. Western governments are importing these people and pretending like there is no problem.

Blogger JaimeInTexas June 13, 2016 1:45 PM  


"One eyewitness to the attack, who was inside the nightclub when it happened, was giving his testimony to the attack, after being trapped inside the club, live on-air, to a mainstream news source when he was abruptly cut off after providing a crucial detail. The eyewitness said that during the attack “there was a guy there that was trying to […] hold the door closed so that we couldn’t exit,” as pointed out by an investigative reporter on YouTube."

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-06-13/multiple-suspects-loose-orlando-why-media-blackout-eyewitness-accounts

Anonymous BGKB June 13, 2016 1:47 PM  

5.Cowardly gay a-hole admits to blocking exit after he escaped to keep shooter from following him. Charge this fucker with something
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Gc2QRdcSGI

Anonymous Credo in Unum Deum June 13, 2016 1:58 PM  

I wouldn't be surprised if there was more than one shooter.

I wouldn't be surprised if there was only one shooter.

With the right set-up (Tactical vest, a magazine coupler for the first two magazines), and practice and training, you can carry up ten 30 round AR-15 magazines with relative easy. That's 300 rounds right there. Practice a little bit with that set-up, and you can do some damage pretty quickly.

Add the fact that it is an enclosed area of a dance club, crammed with a bunch of drunk, and unprepared people, with bullets flying through multiple targets, killing 50 people is doable.

Just saying that it is doable...

Blogger Arthur Isaac June 13, 2016 1:59 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Arthur Isaac June 13, 2016 2:03 PM  

Full metal jackets are Hague convention, circa Boer War when the Brits wanted to label the Boers as war criminals for not having stockpiled full metal jacket ammo. It's where the propaganda term "dum-dum" came from.

Blogger Arthur Isaac June 13, 2016 2:06 PM  

Islam is the religion of peace and refugees just want a normal life.

The government is imminently trustworthy.

~The Ministry of Truth

Blogger Arthur Isaac June 13, 2016 2:06 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Arthur Isaac June 13, 2016 2:12 PM  

Nah dawg, they are radicalising Muslims by their gay behavior. They need to get back in the closet like all of those guys in Saudi Arabia and Iran are used to.

This is what Sharia law looks like losers.

Blogger Arthur Isaac June 13, 2016 2:15 PM  

Or loaded mags and rifle in duffles and chucked them over the fence (or presaged) them.

Blogger bob k. mando June 13, 2016 2:16 PM  

57. Dexter June 13, 2016 11:01 AM
LMAO that is hilariously stupid.



okay, so your plan is that he carried ~200 ( approx 1 mag per minute expended ) loaded mags into the club? at 15oz per 30rd mag for AR, that's over 185 lbs.

plus rifle, plus pistol, plus possible explosive vest????

while engaging in a firefight?

and i'm the one who's stupid?

i also like how you completely excised by point about taking cover before attempting the reload ...



76. Chris Mallory June 13, 2016 11:45 AM
Eyewitness interview video
https://twitter.com/ABC2020/status/742227271629430784



baw-hahahahahaha. even better, the eyewitness is saying that the perp called multiple people on his cell phone over this three hours + clearing jams + reloading?

but dumbshit Dexter thinks he couldn't POSSIBLY have been spending any time reloading.

you notice that the witness says that he heard that Omar CLAIMED to have multiple accomplices in the club *as well as* sniper support OUTSIDE, to take down the police as they arrived.

but the witness NEVER ACTUAllY SAW ANYONE ELSE.

were any cops engaged by snipers outside the club? no?

then the perp was just blowing smoke up everyone's ass when he said that he had sniper support. which makes the verbal claims of help inside the club also likely to be bullshit.

Anonymous That Would Be Telling June 13, 2016 2:22 PM  

@80: Mudder:

I don't think this holds up. Either you'd have armed guys leaving the scene, or you'd have additional guns and gear laying around the club. In either case, the police would know there were additional suspects.

My, you're impatient. On Breitbart's live updating page, a tweet mentioned they removed the last body of over 40 if memory serves at something like 9:30 am this morning. The forensics people doing this might notice details like that while they're working on the bodies, but the serious sweep for that sort of evidence probably started somewhere around the time our host posted this topic.

If additional perpetrators left before the police set up their beloved perimeter, it's entirely possible they weren't noticed at the time. That's the sort of thing the police might figure out with enough interviews, and collecting and going over the area's surveillance videos. Which will take days at minimum.

Anonymous Anonymous June 13, 2016 2:25 PM  

"Three hours later Swat team officers stormed the building with an amoured car and shot him dead. More than 50 people were injured", according to the London Times.

Just saying there's a possible alternative explanation for the large number of casualties.

Still the "lone-wolf" islamist's fault anyways.

Anonymous Longtime Lurker June 13, 2016 3:01 PM  

Cernovich raises a number of good points, which suggest more than one shooter. It is, however, possible that one shooter could have pulled off such a high body count if (1) the shooter was well trained, (2) the shooter was well positioned, i.e., blocking the only obvious exit to safety, and (3) stood with his back to the primary light source. After the initial targets in physical striking distance were neutralized, it then became a question of how quickly the shooter could reload. That's alot of ifs, but absent solid confirmatory evidence to the contrary, we are looking at a lone shooter scenario.

Blogger Noah B June 13, 2016 3:40 PM  

Repeating and building somewhat on what others have said:

Based on the photograph of the Kevlar helmet of one of the police officers who survived the shooting, which I saw before I even heard the body count, my immediate thought was that it looked like it had been hit by two soft point bullets. If so, that partially explains the high body count.

The time that victims had to bleed out after being wounded is another major factor.

345 rounds of small caliber ammo is nothing for a combat load. 1000 rounds of .223 alone would not be unrealistic here. This wasn't a solider marching 20 miles who didn't know what equipment he was going to need; he knew he was going to slaughter defenseless people, so no need for a radio, entrenching tool, 12 lbs of water, MRE's, etc.

At the distances involved within a typical building, hitting a target with a decent rifle isn't at all difficult. People can't run very far before they encounter obstacles, so this is nothing like trying to hit someone sprinting across an open field. Once the exits became obstructed by bodies, most of the people left probably just give up, huddled down someplace, and waited to die.

At such distances a narrow-beam, rail mounted flashlight is a suitable aiming device. A 75% hit rate, with 50% of hits being fatal within 1 hour isn't at all unrealistic with .223 soft points. Someone who's even decent with a rifle wouldn't need an aiming device of any kind at such short ranges - point and shoot is just fine.

And the difference between a mass killing and combat couldn't be greater. In combat, people are shooting back at you, and as exciting as that can be, it still tends to fray nerves and greatly degrade one's aim.

But most importantly, setting up yet another muslim shooter would be a hopelessly inept false flag strategy. I don't have a very high opinion of the intelligence of the left in general, but even they are smart enough to know that they would need to pin a horrible mass shooting on whitey instead of a muslim. This probably hurts them more than it helps.

Anonymous Sharrukin June 13, 2016 4:14 PM  

202 rounds fired.

2 shots per each dead.

Source: 202 rounds fired during #Pulse nightclub shooting in #Orlando http://at.wftv.com/1S2T5xl #wftv #orlandounited

Blogger Noah B June 13, 2016 4:22 PM  

The following statement of Mike's is beyond absurd: "As you follow the story, look for this evidence. If we don’t see all of this, then there was a second shooter."

That doesn't logically follow at all. After the chaos of the police shooting up the place and EMT's rescuing the survivors, good luck to the techs and photographers trying to process what is left of the crime scene. The police aren't all the competent to begin with, and journalists don't have much interest in reporting these details. They'd much rather show video of survivors' families sobbing inconsolably than count the number of empty mags found and other details that only a few people will seriously think about. In general, people who think critically aren't the MSM's primary demographic. The MSM in the entertainment business.

Blogger Markku June 13, 2016 4:27 PM  

Meth. Dirt cheap, lasts several hours, commonly available. Used extensively by all sides in WWII.

At least we Finns used amphetamine, not metamphetamine. Besides, the latter has no sensible reasons to use it as a performance enhancer.

Blogger Markku June 13, 2016 4:30 PM  

Meth is sort of a really, REALLY shitty version of amphetamine. Its side effects are worse than any performance enhancement you get from the fact that it metabolizes into amphetamine in your body.

Blogger Markku June 13, 2016 4:32 PM  

2 shots per each dead.

Casualty means dead OR wounded. There were about 50 dead. So, four shots per kill.

Anonymous Sharrukin June 13, 2016 4:37 PM  

"Casualty means dead OR wounded. There were about 50 dead. So, four shots per kill."

I know but only noticed it after hitting publish and there doesn't seem to be an edit option.

103 casualties with 202 shots is pretty damn good shooting.

Anonymous Napoleon 12pdr June 13, 2016 4:40 PM  

I think we'll find a lot of dead came from the bathrooms. They're a cul-de-sac, almost always. One door.

Another factor I haven't seen mentioned are very-high-capacity mags. 40 and 60 rounders. Not sure if this perp had any, but they are on the market.

Blogger Noah B June 13, 2016 4:51 PM  

Also, at least until now, walking into a gay nightclub dressed up as the Terminator probably didn't raise many eyebrows.

Blogger Bob Loblaw June 13, 2016 5:02 PM  

What really happens is that the bullets yaws or "tumbles" as it passes through soft tissue. Often, the bullet does not finish tumbling 90 degrees before exiting the body.

The big knock against the M855 type cartridge (assuming that's what he used) is it's effectiveness at range is really variable because below 750 m/sec it often doesn't yaw, and when it doesn't yaw it doesn't fragment. So you end up with a tiny, clean hole through the target's body. But at the ranges we're talking about in this incident that's not going to happen, and you couldn't ask for a deadlier round.

I'm not surprised there were fifty dead with that amount of ammo given you get over-penetration from a round with that much energy and some number of the victims almost certainly had survivable wounds but bled out before the cops got control of the building.

Anonymous andon June 13, 2016 7:22 PM  

Bob Loblaw June 13, 2016 5:02 PM

....and some number of the victims almost certainly had survivable wounds but bled out before the cops got control of the building.


I get the feeling most cops these days are more concerned with collecting their big fat pensions.

Anonymous Cyclone Bob June 13, 2016 8:36 PM  

I was giggling this A.M. when my alarm clock radio woke me with a LEO press conference from Orlando. One asswipe after another took the mic to congratulate The Team, with virtually zero useful info given throughout -- except the fact that the death toll has been revised from 50 down to 49 because "we don't count the shooter as a victim."

I'd be shocked if they all were NOT standing in an actual circle, and NOT jerking each other off.

Blogger Arthur Isaac June 13, 2016 9:02 PM  

Loving me some SWHC stock right about now......

Anonymous Discard June 13, 2016 9:41 PM  

112. Arthur Issac: Dum sum bullets originated in a British arsenal at Dum Dum, India. The Brits opposed outlawing them because they were especially useful for knocking down Wogs who challenged Imperial rule, but they eventually signed the treaty. The U.S., finding that Phillipinos responded well to soft-nosed bullets, did not agree to that part of the treaty.

Not aware that the British accused the Boers of using unlawful ammunition, but piss on them if they did. The real objection, I'd bet, is to using them on White men.

Blogger Aeoli Pera June 13, 2016 9:52 PM  

Theory: He only hit ten and the rest died from acute AIDS exposure.

Anonymous John Steed June 13, 2016 11:15 PM  

OK what gives? The main page shows 139 comments but only 134 are shown. Have four been deleted while the counter is stuck?

Anonymous Mr. Rational June 13, 2016 11:35 PM  

John Steed wrote:The main page shows 139 comments but only 134 are shown. Have four been deleted while the counter is stuck?
There are 5 auto-spammed comments by "Anonymous".  Kill javascript and reload, and you'll see them.

Anonymous Ha June 14, 2016 9:15 AM  

Omar went to the range to practice. He was so bad the shot through the cables holding the target to the roof (which would get you thrown out of any range I've ever been to). Meaning he was a veeeery bad shot.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3639725/Orlando-gunman-went-wild-shooting-practice-new-AR-15-Glock-two-days-massacre-range-purchased-weapons.html

‘He was really blasting it,’ revealed a man practicing next to him at the St. Lucie Shooting Center range.

‘’He was shooting pretty hard and the cables holding the target came down — whether that was bad aim or a ricochet I don’t know.

He told me he was getting used to his new weapons.’





Anonymous Didas Kalos June 14, 2016 11:06 AM  

.223 rounds do not "bounce around in the body." Please go shoot a pig or deer with one and show us how it has "bounced around" in the body. argh.

Blogger bob k. mando June 14, 2016 1:43 PM  

38. Elijah Rhodes June 13, 2016 10:05 AM
At close range firing into a crowd, you're going to get a lot of ancillary damage



what's that?

indeterminate gender pronoun damage?

Blogger Markku June 14, 2016 2:16 PM  

Yep, what initially was thought to be the effect of tumbling and cavitation, when the Soviets introduced the AK-74, was later revealed to just be the effect of greater velocity when shot at short distance, and the better lead fragmentation it produces. It's entirely moot for .223 due to its lower velocity compared to the NATO round.

The South African military (Finnish too) did their own tests and while sometimes the round did change direction due to hitting a bone and this did increase the damage, it was too rare as to be significant.

Anonymous Cowardly Lion June 19, 2016 6:39 AM  

I love all these references to "the forensics people."

You won't know what happened when "they finish their work." You'll never know what happened.

There is only one source of information: "government officials say."

No journalist will ever get a look at the bodies, the bullets, the bullet holes, or anything else.

The only way to "know" anything about this event is to assume that lying politicians are reliable sources.

Blogger Gunner Jacky September 02, 2016 2:47 AM  

It is not that great as it seems to us while we are reading it. These massacres and killings doesn't seem that much technical while they are happening, there is a situation of panic and terror, everyone running to save his own life. Guns and bullets must be used wisely and legally.
Regards:
MA Gun License

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