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Saturday, July 16, 2016

A tale of two immigrations

An Englishman tells of his experience of immigrating to Provence, France:
More than a decade ago, long before we moved to the Loire region, my wife and I bought a 19th-century house in the heart of Carpentras, a Provencal market town with a population of 30,000, little more than a two-hour drive north of Nice.

The place had a rich history stretching back many centuries, the architectural legacy of which included a triumphal Roman arch and a magnificent gothic cathedral.

Our new home needed a lot of work, but the task seemed worth it because we could spend part of the year enjoying life in southern France. And at first our times in Carpentras seemed idyllic, wandering through market squares or sitting in a cafe under a cloudless blue sky.

But gradually, shadows began to creep across our retreat. What we had thought was a classic Provencal existence turned out to be something very different. Over the years, Carpentras underwent a dramatic change as the Muslim population grew and the town became ever more Islamified.

Although ethnic monitoring is illegal in France because it is seen as divisive and offends the concept of Gallic solidarity, it has been conservatively estimated there are at least 13,000 Muslims in the town, making up more than 40 per cent of the population.

Some have put the figure as high as 60 per cent. Two mosques, one of them a massive new block, have been established to meet the changing religious demographic. Inexorably, the streets were becoming filled with figures in Islamic dress, along with halal butchers and kebab shops.

In response to this transformation, the owner of the internet cafe opposite our house grew increasingly fervent in his support for the National Front, putting up large posters for Jean-Marie Le Pen in his windows, which were regularly smashed.

Throughout all this, we could sense that the gentleness of Provence, scented by grapes, lavender and sunflowers, was giving way to a mood of suspicion and latent threat.

One night I woke up to the smell of acrid smoke in the air. Looking out from my bedroom window, I saw to my astonishment that five cars had been set on fire in our street. On another occasion, while out in the countryside with my wife, I was menaced by a Muslim armed with scythe.

When, slightly shaken, I told this to a neighbour, who was a French army veteran, he recounted how a local Muslim had one day threatened to slit his throat.
There are now three options for France: surrender, mass deportation, and mass elimination. The French people can only choose one. Coexistence, which was their previous preference, is no longer on the table. And they will have to choose in the next ten years, because the window of opportunity for choosing is rapidly closing.

After that, there will be civil war regardless of what the French prefer, because Muslims reliably attempt to assume complete regional control once they reach a certain percentage of the population. See Nigeria for one example of that. The same thing may happen in London and several cities in the UK in the same time frame. It will also likely happen in the USA, as Americans are increasingly disinclined to repeat the French experiment with Islam and various forms of Muslim bans are already being openly discussed.

As for those who object that the mass deportations will lead to bigger government, well, it's too late. The time to prevent that has passed, and you shouldn't have been so blitheringly stupid as to champion mass immigration on the grounds of individual freedom of movement. Mass immigration will ALWAYS lead to bigger government one way or another, either because the immigrants demand it or because the natives demand it in response to being invaded.

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208 Comments:

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Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother July 16, 2016 8:09 AM  

If we want mass deportations, we need to clear out the current traitorous government that made them necessary in the ¡FIRST! place.

Anonymous Maximo Macaroni July 16, 2016 8:12 AM  

The Englishman's comments remind me of Victor Hanson's tales of life in immigrant-ravaged Southern California.
Those not willing to defend their ethnicity are doomed to see it disappear. I wonder what the Englischer thinks of Brexit?

Blogger Erynne July 16, 2016 8:26 AM  

But did Victor Hanson also say that the majority of immigrants were peaceful and decent people? This Englishmen is still doing what I see everyone say at dinner parties and get togethers, namely, the few bad apples case.

Human nature being what it is, one hopes that the spectacle of seeing the violence on the internet will reach a greater portion of people than the knowledge of college degrees having little value has done.

Anonymous Eduardo July 16, 2016 8:27 AM  

There is a way better solution. Deport ALL ... French people. Without the French, all Euro-muslims move in and voilá, you have now got rid of the problem!!!

U___U

Anonymous Steve July 16, 2016 8:36 AM  

We can have Moslems, or we can have a future.

Frankly, we're overdue a major war on the European continent. 71 years of peace is unnatural.

Blogger Eric Guillaume Dilasser-McDowell July 16, 2016 8:43 AM  

I type this sitting in a little village only 10 kilometers from Carpentras, and I have to say that the writer of that article is mostly right, or would have been 3 years ago. Thankfully the local government has recently started to gentrify the town back to what it used to be and no longer issues building permits for the sort of cheap ugly apartment blocks the kebabs live in, and just last year a wealthy local vigneron bought about half of those existing blocks with the intention of evicting a grand total of about 6,000 people and demolishing their nest in order to build an expensive residential district in the style of the old town. That caused a small riot and a lot of discontent, but in the end he won and the demolition work is due to start in September. The great thing about the Vaucluse region is that real-estate prices have considerably increased in the past couple of years thanks to demand from Dutch and Belgian cyclists who rent from big-time homeowners like the Carpentras tycoon, which means that other than the outskirts of Avignon, the evicted shitskins have no easy place to relocate to other than the projects in North Marseille.

Vaucluse is being gradually un-Kebab'ed as we speak, and that's not even counting the overwhelming support for Le Pen in the entire Provence-Alpes-Cote d'Azur region.

Anonymous Steve July 16, 2016 8:44 AM  

Eric - Keep calm and remove kebab.

Anonymous Eduardo July 16, 2016 8:50 AM  

Calling the arabs Kebabs is funnier than calling the Germans Krauts and the English Potato-Famers.

You know the problem is that the European imploded the middle East after cheap oil reserves so I guess the Imminvasion is just the counter attack... Sort of...

Btw, I should go to an arab restaurant and try a kebab, bet is delicious. Anyone here ever ate it?

Blogger Lazarus July 16, 2016 8:54 AM  

Erynne wrote:But did Victor Hanson also say that the majority of immigrants were peaceful and decent people? This Englishmen is still doing what I see everyone say at dinner parties and get togethers, namely, the few bad apples case

As Spengler/Goldman notes, the "peaceful" muslims supply camouflage and cover like human shields:

Most Muslims are peaceful people who disapprove of terrorism, but many are not. Opinion polls show a large and consistent minority of 20% to 40% approves of at least some form of terrorism. Support for ISIS generally is low, but much higher for Hezbollah, Hamas and other terrorist groups. By any reasonable count there are a few hundred million Muslims who in some way approve of terror, although very few of them would take part in terror attacks. But they are the sea in which the sharks can swim unobserved.

Anonymous Steve-waa July 16, 2016 8:56 AM  

Most of the French voting public refuses to vote for the political party which would stop the Muslim invasion. The National Front should be winning landslide victories. The French people continue to vote for the open borders pro muslim leftist or centrist poltical parties. Will Islamic mass murder change the minds of the French people?

Blogger Human Animal July 16, 2016 8:56 AM  

As for those who object that the mass deportations will lead to bigger government, well, it's too late.

The government required to keep peace between hostile factions may be bigger than the one required to deport... or eliminate.

With a Leviathan frisky enough, you can make fanatics live with gays, or feminists with orthodox sects. And if you can't tolerate a non-offending pedophile (or their allies) in your midst, swat teams will take a break from crashing in the doors of internet trolls to pay you a visit.

Blogger Paul Lutgen July 16, 2016 9:05 AM  

Is mass deportation possible? What do replace them with? What does France or Europe in general, look like in 20 to 30 years considering their low birth rates? Do you think we will have figured out how to clone people or grow babies in vats to replace the population?

Blogger stengle July 16, 2016 9:10 AM  

The point has been made by many others that "the peaceful majority" is not a factor in any shape or form. If you think the vast majority of Germans or Japanese didn't want war, that the majority of Russians didn't want Stalin sending people to the gulags then it is clear that throughout history it is the minority who shape events. Once the minority has enough confidence, gains enough weapons, then the majority shuffle along behind and accept who rules on the new ruling body's terms.

It won't end well, but at some point it must end.

Blogger Paul Lutgen July 16, 2016 9:12 AM  

#9 Robert Spencer says that when doing surveys many Muslims lie; you never know who might be listening in.

Anonymous Q July 16, 2016 9:15 AM  

"On another occasion, while out in the countryside with my wife, I was menaced by a Muslim armed with scythe."

That Englishman is a dumb bloke. What did he expect would happen?

Anonymous Steve July 16, 2016 9:15 AM  

Is mass deportation possible?

Not only possible, but trivially easy. This ain't putting a man on the moon.

What do replace them with?

You're assuming they need replaced. They don't. There's no problem in Western Europe for which hordes of illiterate goatfuckers are the solution.

Longer term we need to improve native birth rates but so far Euro governments have tried nothing.

Blogger Mark Mitchell July 16, 2016 9:20 AM  

Paul Lutgen

- If they can walk to Europe they can walk to Istanbul.
- Green spaces and meadowlarks
- Whiter, cleaner and a lot like the France of the 1950s.

Why do we need to replace the population? Only the bankers need a continually expanding ponzi scheme.

Blogger Rusty Fife July 16, 2016 9:22 AM  

Paul Lutgen wrote:Is mass deportation possible? What do replace them with? What does France or Europe in general, look like in 20 to 30 years considering their low birth rates? Do you think we will have figured out how to clone people or grow babies in vats to replace the population?

The population of France is much greater now than before WWII. Are you suggesting that it was a depopulated back-water then?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_France

Anonymous andon July 16, 2016 9:26 AM  

even mass self-deportation is possible. just start slowly eliminating one welfare benefit after another, then make it illegal to have a job, rent an apartment etc. then begin actually deporting all illegals, start cracking down on visa overstayers, imprison "birth tourists" and eventually rule of law is restored.

imo Trump could get it all done in 4 years

Blogger Cail Corishev July 16, 2016 9:30 AM  

It's just possible that removing millions of cheap laborers and welfare eaters will raise wages and make people wealthier, which will make them feel like they can afford to have more than 1.5 children. I know finances aren't the only, or primary, reason for the low birth rates, but they do matter.

As I understand it, Europeans are pretty crowded (compared to Americans), so it's not like they need to get back to having big families; they just need to replace themselves so they don't die out or get suckered into "we'll bring in young foreigners to pay for our retirement" schemes again.

Anonymous andon July 16, 2016 9:31 AM  

its funny that the same people who once screamed about "overpopulation" are the same ones worried about what we will do without these tens of millions of invaders

Blogger Phillip George July 16, 2016 9:32 AM  

Islam's just the 1300 year war.
The other elephant in the room, so to speak.

but they are a minority everywhere? Shia VS Sunni. Sufi Vs Everyone. Fundamentalist Vs Semi liberal etc etc. They blow over in a fierce wind. It's a house of Straw: allah "created man, out of a mere clot of congealed blood" etc/ etc. From squat toilets to eat food with the right hand, wipe your bum with the left. Haram dog ownership. All of it. Sticking bums in the air five repetitions a day? A fantastic accommodation of the impossible.

People fed the insanity, with, well food/ money/ electricity/ loans/ free housing/ slots in media/ land. Ceding credibility where there is none. That emperor never wore a stitch of clothing in its bloody life.

Anonymous andon July 16, 2016 9:38 AM  

8. Anonymous Eduardo July 16, 2016 8:50 AM

Btw, I should go to an arab restaurant and try a kebab, bet is delicious. Anyone here ever ate it?


not yet but I hear the best is when they marinate it for you in their own poop juice. might be special order though

Blogger Paul Lutgen July 16, 2016 9:40 AM  

Thanks for the correction, I thought the birth rate was a serious threat. I imaged the streets of Paris in 30 years, instead of teaming with people it would largely be empty with few souls breaking the silence.

Anonymous johnc July 16, 2016 9:40 AM  

Going forward let us re-double our commitment to the fact that there is no human right to practice Islam. Our great and venerable defender of Western civilization Pius IX put it succinctly: "error has no rights". If any nation's constitution contradicts this plain truth, then let it be accepted that that constitution is wrong.

Islam is a barbaric error that enslaves a large portion of humanity. Would we tolerate any other cancer and allow it to proliferate?

First it must be excised from the West, and then from the world. Remember in centuries past when the Christians wiped out the various satanic religions in Central and South America? That's what needs to happen to Islam.

Anonymous Moonbear July 16, 2016 9:42 AM  

Is mass deportation possible? What do replace them with? What does France or Europe in general, look like in 20 to 30 years considering their low birth rates? Do you think we will have figured out how to clone people or grow babies in vats to replace the population?

There was this period of time between 1930 and 1940 where one country in particular had incredible growth of children up above 4 per woman, it was called Germany.
They achieved this by giving out a fairly large loan to young couples, large enough to buy a house.
For every child you had they would remove 25% of the loan, when you had 4 children the loan would be paid off.

This created a whole lot of jobs in construction and manufacturing, gave people money to spend and made the population grow quickly.
It's very easy to promote people to have children, they just have to be let known there are a shortage of children and the idea of having children have to be promoted instead of suppressed like in today's society.

Today's policies are anti-humane, funny considering they use "human rights" as a shield to replace the native population throughout western civilization.

Blogger Orville July 16, 2016 9:43 AM  

I wonder if the French will rage against their government's Bataclan coverup. I'm not French and it makes me mad to hear of the torture and mutilation that was done. Eyes gouged out, balls cut off and stuffed into mouths, disembowelment.

Best Tools For Men

Anonymous Eduardo July 16, 2016 9:48 AM  

Andon

Whoever gave you that information... Needs to stop going in underground restaurants and start thinking about a battery of antibiotics 8D!

Anonymous JI July 16, 2016 10:15 AM  

I think Vox forgot another option - partition. Just like the French of the day gave the Viking raiders the Normandy reason to get them to quit raiding (at least this is what I recall, my history isn't the best), I would not be surprised if the French partitioned their country into Muslem and non-Muslem zones.

Anonymous cheddarman July 16, 2016 10:16 AM  

"Is mass deportation possible? What do replace them with?"

Replace them with toilet paper, once you learn how to wipe your own arse

Anonymous Eduardo July 16, 2016 10:22 AM  

JI

I think Vox is assuming the French will want the entirety of France, so partition would be to give up on a part of France which would be a failure of some sort. Assuming that muslims will continue to hurt the West European countries, is not really a good idea to have several muslim zones in The West.

Vox is actually correct, there is not much to do now, deporting them is unfortuantely the only way to go because the ideological principles involved make it impossible to just get along.

Blogger Rusty Fife July 16, 2016 10:31 AM  

Paul Lutgen wrote:Thanks for the correction, I thought the birth rate was a serious threat. I imaged the streets of Paris in 30 years, instead of teaming with people it would largely be empty with few souls breaking the silence.

Not hardly. The teeming masses are no longer required for majority of repetitive production. Soon, anyone below a 100IQ will be considered functionally retarded for the Automation Age.

The US Army won't accept anyone for any job, not even cook, if their IQ is below 80. I would suggest that this is the current level of functional retardation in the US.

After AI gets off the ground all of us will be functionally retarded.

Blogger John Williams July 16, 2016 10:33 AM  

@Stengle, it's not the minority that defines a group, but the extremists.

Blogger seeingsights July 16, 2016 10:36 AM  

Vox says: "As for those who object that the mass deportations will lead to bigger government, well, it's too late. "

I appreciate that Vox is anticipating an objection to his position. But my reply would be that mass deportations will NOT lead to bigger government. In the long run, it will reduce government size, for there will be less people relying on, and support of, the welfare/regulatory state.

Anonymous Malcolm July 16, 2016 10:40 AM  

"I wonder if the French will rage against their government's Bataclan coverup. I'm not French and it makes me mad to hear of the torture and mutilation that was done. Eyes gouged out, balls cut off and stuffed into mouths, disembowelment."

Jesus Christ hadn't heard about it until your comment - just googled it and seen it's the story's been broken within last 24 hours. Horrendous. And another black mark against the disgusting French establishment.

Blogger Rantor July 16, 2016 10:42 AM  

So we get liberal idiots claiming Malthusian theories of overpopulation. Now they are worried about declining population. In a shiny socialist age of cheap energy and robots, declining population is the solution for unemployment and many other ills.

Also if people had a peaceful, homogenous state ruled by Christians and faithful to Christ, they would start having babies anyway. The answer to declining population is never to import aliens, especially not idolatrous infidels.

Blogger Rusty Fife July 16, 2016 10:43 AM  

Eduardo wrote:JI

I think Vox is assuming the French will want the entirety of France, so partition would be to give up on a part of France which would be a failure of some sort. Assuming that muslims will continue to hurt the West European countries, is not really a good idea to have several muslim zones in The West.

Vox is actually correct, there is not much to do now, deporting them is unfortuantely the only way to go because the ideological principles involved make it impossible to just get along.


Part of the issue is that the French have this weird belief that Algeria and the rest of the empire are France. In once sense the partition has already been made; ship them to Algeria.

Yankees have the same sort of weird belief about the South; that because they subdued them once; the South is the North.

Blogger Rantor July 16, 2016 10:45 AM  

Partition won't work, eventually the infidels will outgrow their land (that they impoverished and destroyed) and require more. Might as well build a Palestinian terrorist camp next to Israel and see how that works. (Oh yeah, they did, it is called Gaza).

Anonymous Eduardo July 16, 2016 10:45 AM  

Stengle is not talking about what defines a group. He is saying that within a group, just because a huge majority is peaceful it doesn't mean that there will be some sort of a pressure to stop the violent people. So it is very simple, and first time I heard that argument was pretty impressive, you have 95 peaceful people and 5 murderers. Well you are not dealing with a 95% peaceful person when you engage with this group, you are dealing with 5 bad people in a group of 100 and you must worry seriously about these 5 bad people despite their group is overwhelmingly good people because there is most likely nothing those 95 good people will do to curb the violence of those 5. Basically stastical data about a group just to see if the group will be harmful is just wrongheaded.

What you are saying actually makes no sense John Williams, if you have warhawks and pacifists within the same group, how the heck you define that group? Neutral? That group has no opinion on war?

Anonymous Eduardo July 16, 2016 10:53 AM  

Rusty

Yeah! That is so weird, I mean Algerian soccer players even refuse to sing the Anthem but they are French! The Algerians make so crystal clear that they are Algerians and not French that is hard to understand the logic. I heard that in the 19th century they, the French, used to teach African children in Africa that their descendent were the gauls.

I think France just believed that since they had found the best outcome or the best setting for human beings, they ought to just teach it to everybody.

Well the North is the Union and the Union is the US of A!!! Let's keep ot down before Kratman start stalking us.

Anonymous Silas Birch July 16, 2016 10:54 AM  

"He shall be a wild donkey of a man, his hand against everyone and everyone’s hand against him, and he shall dwell over against all his kinsmen.”
Genesis 16:12

Gods Word rings true to this day !

Blogger Rusty Fife July 16, 2016 10:57 AM  

Eduardo wrote:Stengle is not talking about what defines a group. He is saying that within a group, just because a huge majority is peaceful it doesn't mean that there will be some sort of a pressure to stop the violent people. So it is very simple, and first time I heard that argument was pretty impressive, you have 95 peaceful people and 5 murderers. Well you are not dealing with a 95% peaceful person when you engage with this group, you are dealing with 5 bad people in a group of 100 and you must worry seriously about these 5 bad people despite their group is overwhelmingly good people because there is most likely nothing those 95 good people will do to curb the violence of those 5. Basically stastical data about a group just to see if the group will be harmful is just wrongheaded.

What you are saying actually makes no sense John Williams, if you have warhawks and pacifists within the same group, how the heck you define that group? Neutral? That group has no opinion on war?


Nassim Taleb addresses all of this broken normal distribution statistical thinking in his various Black Swan books. He even states that violence is the textbook case of black swans.

His answer is the equivalent of circuit breakers (or stop losses). The only conceivable protection from downside risk in the population is to deport them. I'd be glad to hear another.

Blogger Rusty Fife July 16, 2016 11:12 AM  

Eduardo wrote:Yeah! That is so weird, I mean Algerian soccer players even refuse to sing the Anthem but they are French! The Algerians make so crystal clear that they are Algerians and not French that is hard to understand the logic. I heard that in the 19th century they, the French, used to teach African children in Africa that their descendent were the gauls.

I think France just believed that since they had found the best outcome or the best setting for human beings, they ought to just teach it to everybody.


I like the soccer/anthem example.

The French engineers I've worked with have one glaring issue; they always believe their equations and thereby frequently mistake map for terrain. Such is the pitfall of mathematical intelligence.

Blogger The Other Robot July 16, 2016 11:24 AM  

KaMfF!

Blogger pyrrhus July 16, 2016 11:38 AM  

@32 The actual level of functional retardation is about IQ88, at which point British researchers have found people ineducable to any standard...McNamara's Folly was expanding the draft to people well below that level, who proved disastrous as soldiers...

Anonymous BGKB July 16, 2016 11:39 AM  

10 years and so many moslems got craped onto the town that the population is 60%. How many of them have jobs?

But did Victor Hanson also say that the majority of immigrants were peaceful and decent people?

No one ever talks about hard working moslems.

Is mass deportation possible? What do replace them with? What does France or Europe in general, look like in 20 to 30 years considering their low birth rates?

Cheap land and low taxes for not having to support low IQ 3rd worlders will make k style evolved people breed more. K style people want to save up to have kids they can support well while Latrina squats out 21 crack babies on their taxes.

I think Vox forgot another option - partition. They can have an area of land 6' under a pig farm.

I imaged the streets of Paris in 30 years, instead of teaming with people it would largely be empty with few souls breaking the silence.

Last time I was in Paris the blacks were revolting. It would be a nice city with only white people.

Partition won't work, eventually the infidels will outgrow their land Only if they still get welfare/dole

, if you have warhawks and pacifists within the same group, how the heck you define that group? Neutral?

A better analogy would be beheaders on the dole, and those too lazy to behead on the dole that don't mind other people beheading.

Blogger Avalanche July 16, 2016 11:40 AM  

@27 "Bataclan ... torture and mutilation that was done."

I keep trying NOT to think that the torture was done BEFORE death. (Because, what's the purpose after?) Rise up, rise up!! How CAN the people -- OUR people - just lie there, blind and silent?!

Anonymous Rhetoric Man July 16, 2016 11:40 AM  

JohnC...

"Going forward let us re-double our commitment to the fact that there is no human right to practice Islam."

Right, as if denigrating an entire religion is really going to help matters. Religion is faith. People's faith matters to them individually and collectively. It is more important than race or "western civilization".

"Islam is a barbaric error that enslaves a large portion of humanity. Would we tolerate any other cancer and allow it to proliferate?"

Here's my suggestion. Why don't you play surgeon and cut it out. You know, like Rambo, a one man sand n----- wrecking crew. Let us know how that works out.

Anonymous SciVo July 16, 2016 11:42 AM  

Paul Lutgen wrote:Is mass deportation possible? What do replace them with? What does France or Europe in general, look like in 20 to 30 years considering their low birth rates? Do you think we will have figured out how to clone people or grow babies in vats to replace the population?

The anti-natalist social engineers have already done all the heavy lifting for us in figuring out how a nation's birthrate can be manipulated. So, even if we accept your questionable premise that the French population must be prevented from shrinking, all we have to do is take the overpopulation fearmongers' policy prescriptions and do the opposite.

Any supposed wonk who says that it's hard to engineer a baby boom should not be taken seriously as an analyst. He isn't saying what he means, which is that he would rather not recommend what is required -- because he's a moral coward who can't handle confrontation -- which is completely different from it being difficult.

Blogger Sheila4g July 16, 2016 11:44 AM  

I read the excerpted article last night - and the author is still afraid to challenge the narrative directly. He still inserts the standard bromides (the vast majority of kebabs merely want to live in peace with their French neighbors). Of course, how maintaining one's native language and style of dress and food and religion and culture in a totally foreign land equates to "living in peace" is never quite explained. Plus, he moved away. What about all those who couldn't afford to? What about those who were forced out when all the kebabs moved in?

As I've noted before, based on prior experiences I actually have/had a fondness for Turkey. I like kebab - and I like Turks - IN TURKEY. Can't claim to have any similar experiences with Syrians or Algerians, and every time I drive past a mosque here in Texas I feel violated. FWIW and a bit off topic, my older son finally got me to go to the store with him to check out numerous different handguns to see what suited my hand (not exceptionally petite, but rather short fingers). Pretty much inclined to go for a compact Sig Sauer P390 (I think that's what it was) - double stack double action. The clerk was pushing some Glocks and I couldn't help but think of Nate! Since all the ones in the store had trigger guards, I couldn't really test the trigger to see how will suited it was, so now he's after me to go to the range and try one out - but being my kid, he also wants me to try out about half a dozen others. I keep telling him I want to learn to shoot on ONE gun and learn how to handle ONE gun before I expand, but he can't control his enthusiasm for all guns.

Blogger VD July 16, 2016 11:45 AM  

Right, as if denigrating an entire religion is really going to help matters. Religion is faith. People's faith matters to them individually and collectively. It is more important than race or "western civilization".

It is going to help matters. It has observably helped matters in the past. Islam is not more important than race or Western civilization to anyone but Muslims; because it is more important to them, they cannot participate in Western civilization.

Your position is both incoherent and ahistorical.

Remember, the best rhetoric is based on the truth. Yours today is abysmal rhetoric and totally hopeless if intended to be dialectic.

Blogger Robert What? July 16, 2016 11:45 AM  

As the inimitable Mark Steyn has pointed out: how are you going to wage a civil war in a country where the natives are in massive population decline considering they are having no children. He points out the image of a population of aging Frenchmen, or British, or Germans, doing battle with young Muslims. So in ten years, the only two choices will be submission or mass deportation. Unfortunately the governments have consistently proved themselves to be on the side of the invaders. So regrettably I see only submission in Frances future. Probably Germany's as well. The Brits, as ever, are a bit more unpredictable.

Blogger Avalanche July 16, 2016 11:45 AM  

@46 "Last time I was in Paris the blacks were revolting."

No matter what city you're in, the blacks are revolting! Disgusting, in fact!

Blogger VD July 16, 2016 11:46 AM  

Why don't you play surgeon and cut it out. You know, like Rambo, a one man sand n----- wrecking crew. Let us know how that works out.

I expect there are more than a few very well-funded genetic scientists in Israel working on that right now.

Blogger ace July 16, 2016 11:46 AM  

Moderates are simply the logistical tail.

Blogger VD July 16, 2016 11:48 AM  

As the inimitable Mark Steyn has pointed out: how are you going to wage a civil war in a country where the natives are in massive population decline considering they are having no children.

This is a very stupid argument made by people who only look at percentages and pay no attention to absolute numbers. There will be more French grandchildren than there were Frenchmen at the time of the French Revolution.

Blogger praetorian July 16, 2016 11:49 AM  

Paul Lutgen wrote:Is mass deportation possible? What do replace them with? What does France or Europe in general, look like in 20 to 30 years considering their low birth rates? Do you think we will have figured out how to clone people or grow babies in vats to replace the population?

- Yes.

- French. Or fresh air. Either is fine, since kebab is a net negative.

- A modern, stable homogenous european country.

- Incentivize family formation, particularly for the intelligent.

This is not hard stuff, Paul.

Blogger Avalanche July 16, 2016 11:59 AM  

@50 "but being my kid, he also wants me to try out about half a dozen others. I keep telling him I want to learn to shoot on ONE gun and learn how to handle ONE gun before I expand, but he can't control his enthusiasm for all guns."

“but being my kid, he also wants me to try out about half a dozen others. I keep telling him I want to learn to shoot on ONE gun and learn how to handle ONE gun before I expand, but he can't control his enthusiasm for all guns.”

Sheila, your kid is completely 100% correct! If you want to only 'learn' one gun, then it had damned well better be the RIGHT gun for you! If you buy "ONE gun" without actually trying multiple guns -- it can just as easily turn out that that gun doesn't fit your hand well (and with a trigger guard -- you did NOT hold that gun)! Say you buy a gun -- without actually test-firing it before purchase? And when you get it to the range, it turns out NOT to fit your hand well, and the recoil is uncomfortable, and you don't like it. You've wasted your time and money.

Go to the range. Rent and try *several* guns. Your son can advise you -- or if you don’t like taking advice from your kid -- have the range master suggest guns to try. See which one best fits -- WITHOUT a trigger guard (really, sheesh) -- and which feels best in your hand when actually shooting! Then you can buy your first gun, secure knowing that you WILL enjoy shooting with it, which means you will practice with it, which means you may have a chance of protecting yourself with it!

Blogger The Other Robot July 16, 2016 12:00 PM  

Any supposed wonk who says that it's hard to engineer a baby boom should not be taken seriously as an analyst. He isn't saying what he means, which is that he would rather not recommend what is required -- because he's a moral coward who can't handle confrontation -- which is completely different from it being difficult.

Simple solution: Shut down TV stations and the Internet at night. The number of babies born will go up. Oh, yeah. Get women out of the workforce and give them a payment for every child born in wedlock.

Blogger frenchy July 16, 2016 12:02 PM  

"...because Muslims reliably attempt to assume complete regional control once they reach a certain percentage of the population."

Vox, I hope you reach more people with this. I've noticed the same wherever Muslims are. They are nice and peaceful when in the minority, but once they get to a point where they have sufficient numbers to impose themselves, it's game on. I've lived in Montpellier, France and visit it often. From 1994 to now, Muslims were few but now are many. . .and they're getting clout.

It's only a religion of peace in foreign lands when their numbers are small and they are in the minority. It then takes on its true nature--a religion of war--when they got numbers.

I wish more folks could see that ISIS = Islam. What ISIS is behaving exactly how Muslims behaved when Islam was in its infancy. If anything can be said about Muslims today, it is that they're either slacking, or just biding their time. Muslim communities are ticking time bombs.

Blogger The Other Robot July 16, 2016 12:03 PM  

Did anyone see Obama on TV on Thursday night claiming that "It is easier to get gun than a computer or a book?"

That is the sort of crap that is on TV these days, and the propaganda has been going on for several decades.

Blogger Avalanche July 16, 2016 12:11 PM  

Oh, and Sheila? Once you've begun learning about your gun -- you ALSO need to learn about when, and when NOT, to use it! For example: my friend (whom I am slowly training about guns) asked, "what about a warning shot? Should you/would you fire a warning shot?"

Having done the research and education needed to reliably carry, my answer was: "not just no but hell no, not ever, not under any circumstance!"

"Whaaaaa...?!"

*IF* you are ever in a situation where you might need to draw your weapon, you may legally ONLY draw it IF you (or an "innocent" -- and that is another snake pit you need to educate yourself about!) are in IMMEDIATE (and credible) jeopardy of death or serious injury. ANY level of threat below that does not give you legal authority to draw. Drawing and firing a warning shot means, prima facie, that you were NOT in immediate jeopardy of death or serious injury.

(And then, add on your own state's specific laws and their jury instructions, which can "modify" the law's application!)

You MUST know this stuff if you are going to carry! (Mas Ayoob, whom I recommend to your education, says something along the lines of: The first problem is to survive the attack. The SECOND problem is to survive the aftermath! (Just think Zimmerman and his multimillion-dollar burden for lawyers and expert witnesses and so on.)

It is NOT sufficient to merely buy a gun and learn to put holes in paper!

Anonymous Bz July 16, 2016 12:17 PM  

TV news just told me four have been arrested in connection with the Tunisian Truck Terrorist, previously described as a loner.

Blogger Daniel July 16, 2016 12:20 PM  

Bring eastern european argentinian uruguayans. Not french but close enough culturally

Anonymous Bz July 16, 2016 12:30 PM  

Since you ask, we need to replace deported muslims and others with nothing at all. There is, in fact, nothing but advantages to this.

The economic and social case for this is so easy. While the GDP will decline when this is done, the GDP per capita will increase. The economic and social drag of a large and growing permanent underclass of useless eaters and hardened criminals (or worse) will no longer be present, which will further improve the situation in both the short and long term for any country that implements it. It's an economic stimulus that actually works without any magic tricks.

Once the muslims realize their life of ease was an illusion, that badly written laws and hospitality could be abused to any degree forever, they might well be happier back home too. But that's not really our problem.

We are, however, not yet at the point where the prestige of the ruling class permits them to admit this. It could be that clear-eyed outsiders are needed. I know it's so in my country.

Anonymous BGKB July 16, 2016 12:38 PM  

Shelia, are you sure you are in Texas if you can't find a place to rent multiple guns to try out?

Did anyone see Obama on TV on Thursday night claiming that "It is easier to get gun than a computer or a book?"

To be fair once a black kid steals a gun everything else is easier to get. In CA over 900 guns have been stolen from cops since 2010. If groids are willing to steal guns from cops they computers and porn mags are no problem. http://abc7news.com/news/report-944-law-enforcement-guns-lost-since-2010-in-ca/1402920/

Blogger Orville July 16, 2016 12:46 PM  

@62 I second checking out Mas Ayoob. He has a lot of good stuff on protecting yourself from the law enforcement rectal exam that you will undergo after a self defense shooting. For instance, politely refuse to give a statement until 24 hours later, and have a lawyer with you when you do.

Blogger The Other Robot July 16, 2016 12:50 PM  

Lots of people seem to think that Pence is the LBJ of the Trump ticket.

Blogger Rusty Fife July 16, 2016 12:53 PM  

Rhetoric Man wrote:JohnC...

"Going forward let us re-double our commitment to the fact that there is no human right to practice Islam."

Right, as if denigrating an entire religion is really going to help matters. Religion is faith. People's faith matters to them individually and collectively. It is more important than race or "western civilization".

"Islam is a barbaric error that enslaves a large portion of humanity. Would we tolerate any other cancer and allow it to proliferate?"

Here's my suggestion. Why don't you play surgeon and cut it out. You know, like Rambo, a one man sand n----- wrecking crew. Let us know how that works out.


Religion is your uniform as some wiseman says...

Anonymous Eric the Red July 16, 2016 12:54 PM  

This argument about declining population requiring mass immigration has always been specious, disingenuous, hollow, self-serving, pick an adjective. Every advanced economy in the world has learned how to do more with less, to the point where robotics is now being touted as needing very little workforce at all. Also, what about the ecological footprint of a population? Isn't a decreasing population supposed to be good for that delicate bitch Gaia? In addition, a people could always promote policies to either increase or at least stabilize itself without need of outsiders. We were all supposed to be waltzing into a future where time could renew our creative spirits with play and creativity and tra-la-la.

The takeaway conclusion can only be that the demographic reasons foisted upon us are all lies, that the forced importation of barbaric hordes is for one plausible reason only, and that is to get rid of the native white population either by intermarriage or internecine warfare. The elites are like ravening beasts, waiting on the sidelines somewhere with jaws slavering in anticipation of the carnage to come.

Blogger Rusty Fife July 16, 2016 1:02 PM  

Avalanche wrote:Sheila, your kid is completely 100% correct! If you want to only 'learn' one gun, then it had damned well better be the RIGHT gun for you! If you buy "ONE gun" without actually trying multiple guns -- it can just as easily turn out that that gun doesn't fit your hand well (and with a trigger guard -- you did NOT hold that gun)! Say you buy a gun -- without actually test-firing it before purchase? And when you get it to the range, it turns out NOT to fit your hand well, and the recoil is uncomfortable, and you don't like it. You've wasted your time and money.

I was shocked how many people in my CHL class couldn't work the action to load their little .380.

Try the full manual of arms before you buy.

Anonymous A Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents July 16, 2016 1:03 PM  

Mass immigration will ALWAYS lead to bigger government one way or another,

Polyglot empires are always ruled, not governed. That is because the trust level always winds up at the lowest possible state. Increasing the die-versity merely provides an opportunity to lower trust even further.

Blogger Rusty Fife July 16, 2016 1:04 PM  

The Other Robot wrote:Did anyone see Obama on TV on Thursday night claiming that "It is easier to get gun than a computer or a book?"

He must be trying to get paperbacks from CH.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash July 16, 2016 1:06 PM  

Les Français n'ont plus de trois choix;
Expulsez, Abbatrez ou Mourez;
On ne peut plus coexister


The French have only three choices;
Deport, slaughter or die
One can no longer co-exist

Blogger Rusty Fife July 16, 2016 1:08 PM  

pyrrhus wrote:@32 The actual level of functional retardation is about IQ88, at which point British researchers have found people ineducable to any standard...McNamara's Folly was expanding the draft to people well below that level, who proved disastrous as soldiers...

I stand corrected.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash July 16, 2016 1:10 PM  

Lazarus wrote:But they are the sea in which the sharks can swim unobserved.


I prefer to use alligators in sewers as an analogy. Better fits the case,and brings it home.

Anonymous A Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents July 16, 2016 1:12 PM  

@45
The actual level of functional retardation is about IQ88, at which point British researchers have found people ineducable to any standard…

A reference or cite would be very helpful.

Blogger The Other Robot July 16, 2016 1:17 PM  

Are the MSM suppressing stories about reprisals against Muslims in France?

I would have expected a few torched mosques by now.

Blogger Sheila4g July 16, 2016 1:18 PM  

Many thanks to all the advice from others here. Not trying to derail thread - but truly I am aware of how ignorant I am. It's just that, at least with my son, it's information overload on a massive scale. I'm not arguing against trying numerous guns and certainly realize I can't tell from holding one with a trigger guard - that was just to see which grip fit my hand. But if I really need to be familiar with the inner workings and loading and firing of multiple weapons and multiple types of rounds just to start, I feel overwhelmed!

Anonymous A Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents July 16, 2016 1:22 PM  

On topic.

Serbian troops and police to control border

Prime Minister of Serbia has 3,000 colonists and refuses to take more:
"Serbia cannot be a parking ground for people from Afghanistan or Pakistan whom no one else in Europe wishes to accept," Vucic said at a press conference. "Serbia must protect its national interests.”

Also Hungary starts to protect its border:

Hungary's new rules that took effect on July 5 requires all migrants caught within 8 kilometers (5 miles) of the Hungarian border be returned to the Serbian side of the razor-wire fence built last year.

I’m informed that Slovakia refuses to accept rapefugees, but can’t point to a source.

Anonymous A Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents July 16, 2016 1:23 PM  

On topic.

Serbian troops and police to control border

Prime Minister of Serbia has 3,000 colonists and refuses to take more:
"Serbia cannot be a parking ground for people from Afghanistan or Pakistan whom no one else in Europe wishes to accept," Vucic said at a press conference. "Serbia must protect its national interests.”

Also Hungary starts to protect its border:

Hungary's new rules that took effect on July 5 requires all migrants caught within 8 kilometers (5 miles) of the Hungarian border be returned to the Serbian side of the razor-wire fence built last year.

I’m informed that Slovakia refuses to accept rapefugees, but can’t point to a source.

Blogger Orville July 16, 2016 1:23 PM  

Baby steps Sheila4g. Think of guns like shoes. Start with a shoe that fits, then focus on type of shoes. Work shoes vs. dance shoes. Which one do you need the most? If budget is not a problem, then you will eventually have more than one gun.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash July 16, 2016 1:30 PM  

Paul Lutgen wrote:Is mass deportation possible? What do replace them with? What does France or Europe in general, look like in 20 to 30 years considering their low birth rates? Do you think we will have figured out how to clone people or grow babies in vats to the population?
In 20 or 30 years, France would be more conservative, more prosperous, safe, cleaner and more Christian.

What's not to like?

Anonymous cheddarman July 16, 2016 1:45 PM  

If the French would go ahead and euthanize the childless boomers as they retire, it would be fitting. One of the lies used to sell immivasion was that the immigrants working would provide the boomers with a lavish retirement.

Anonymous Jack Amok July 16, 2016 1:45 PM  

Since you ask, we need to replace deported muslims and others with nothing at all. There is, in fact, nothing but advantages to this.


Image fewer traffic jams, shorter lines at the store, less-crowded parks...

Anonymous Eric the Red July 16, 2016 1:51 PM  

Reciprocity in our Western value system is being used against us by other cultures that refuse to have that same value. And the traitors in our midst have bought into it hook, line, and sinker. They refuse to see that such lack exists in the other culture, or they believe with religious fervor that the other culture will sooner or later come around to adopt reciprocity. In addition, their belief absolutely precludes the use of direct quid-pro-quo reality-based action against the other culture whenever it takes advantage of the West. Instead the traitors double down, as a matter of religious principle. What causes this zealotry, what feeds the zealot's appetite?

Blogger Sheila4g July 16, 2016 1:52 PM  

@85 Jack Amok: This. I've read how a settler woman would weep with joy when she found she had a White neighbor within 5 or 10 miles. Half the time I have to force myself to go out and do what I need to because I hate the traffic jams and all the diversity. For Asians, Africans, and Mohammedans, everything seems to be a family affair - they round up ancient tottering grandparents and various aunts and cousins just to go to the grocery store. I guess solitude and space are just part of White privilege.

Anonymous Jack Amok July 16, 2016 1:59 PM  

Right, as if denigrating an entire religion is really going to help matters

Atheists and other lefties don't have any problem denigrating an entire religion, as long as it's a Christian one. Moslems certainly don't have any trouble denigrating Christianity. So either get with the program and shoot back, or tip your fedora to the good sirs and ladies while you still have a head to wear it on.

Anonymous BGKB July 16, 2016 2:00 PM  

Sheila4g. Think of guns like shoes.

You can also have guns painted/finished, instead of cammo you could go with Hello Kitty. "Your honor this is the gun Sheila shot Shitavious Cook with at 3am in her kitchen."

You can even buy a coating to duplicate rust. http://www.houtsenterprises.net/dur_durabrown.html

Anonymous Jack Amok July 16, 2016 2:11 PM  

For Asians, Africans, and Mohammedans, everything seems to be a family affair - they round up ancient tottering grandparents and various aunts and cousins just to go to the grocery store.

Yeah, I notice that too. But the dot-Indians are really obnoxious about it. They'll have the whole family, but strung out over an entire block taking up as much space as they can. And the idea of moving aside to make room for someone else using the sidewalk? I used to be surprised, expecting people from a crowded-ass place like India to have better manners than that. But, I now realize it's the opposite. Growing up with overcrowding turns people into selfish, passive-aggressive jerks trying to claim as much communal property as they can.

Also, your comment about pioneers - fewer people = people are more precious. Contra the claim we need a bigger government for mass deportation, the Black Death dropping Europe's population by a third created a huge explosion of liberty, as the people who were left suddenly became a lot more important.

I guess solitude and space are just part of White privilege.

Damned odd when you think about it. We don't like being around ourselves all that much, but every other population on Earth can't stay away from us.

Anonymous andon July 16, 2016 2:21 PM  

28. Anonymous Eduardo July 16, 2016 9:48 AM
Andon

Whoever gave you that information... Needs to stop going in underground restaurants and start thinking about a battery of antibiotics 8D!


nah, antibiotics wont kill the tapeworm. you need anthelmintics for that

Anonymous Discard July 16, 2016 2:23 PM  

Eduardo: Get your kebab from an Armenian. It's good and you haven't given anything to Mecca.

Anonymous andon July 16, 2016 2:24 PM  

17. Blogger Mark Mitchell July 16, 2016 9:20 AM

Why do we need to replace the population? Only the bankers need a continually expanding ponzi scheme.


and big business. bet they'd love to have a billion in Europe and a billion in the U.S.

Anonymous andon July 16, 2016 2:31 PM  

35. Anonymous Malcolm July 16, 2016 10:40 AM
"I wonder if the French will rage against their government's Bataclan coverup. I'm not French and it makes me mad to hear of the torture and mutilation that was done. Eyes gouged out, balls cut off and stuffed into mouths, disembowelment."

Jesus Christ hadn't heard about it until your comment - just googled it and seen it's the story's been broken within last 24 hours. Horrendous. And another black mark against the disgusting French establishment.


I'd love to see Sarkozy and hollande get the same treatment
cut off their balls + shove them in their mouth, then gut them like pigs

Anonymous Discard July 16, 2016 2:36 PM  

Sheila: I went through three different 9MMs before I found the one that best suited me. A waste of money on my part, but my friends were glad to buy nearly new second hand guns.

Blogger John S July 16, 2016 2:36 PM  

The Other Robot wrote:Did anyone see Obama on TV on Thursday night claiming that "It is easier to get gun than a computer or a book?"

He must be trying to get paperbacks from CH.


Naw, its a exchange problem. Neither Amazon or Dell take crack rock in trade. Shitravious with the stolen glock down behind the QuickyMart,on the other hand...

Blogger Robert Divinity July 16, 2016 2:38 PM  

It won't end well, but at some point it must end.

The three options Vox Day laid out are the most likely. I suppose segregation is another although that happens now.

Anonymous Eduardo July 16, 2016 2:38 PM  

Discard

I didn't know the Armenians made Kebab as well. I wanted to go eat some Scandinavian food some years ago. You know, the multicultural belly XD! The multicultural thing I think actually might good for you.

Btw, I was thinking here, where can one find statistics on immigration? Any big site on the net that holds multiple studies?

Anonymous Discard July 16, 2016 2:39 PM  

To raise the birthrate for intelligent White women, abolish the many millions of intrusive, make work, office jobs. And abolish all student loan programs for unneeded majors.

Anonymous andon July 16, 2016 2:47 PM  

48. Anonymous Rhetoric Man July 16, 2016 11:40 AM

Right, as if denigrating an entire religion is really going to help matters. Religion is faith. People's faith matters to them individually and collectively. It is more important than race or "western civilization".


wrong again. prob you're very religious and this distorts your view of things. Europe and America both becoming more and more secular every day. your views fit in more with middle east extremists

Anonymous Weak Hand Man July 16, 2016 2:54 PM  

Rusty Fife: Most .380s are made with the frame and barrel as one piece. For engineering reasons, that requires a stronger recoil spring, and they are actually harder to cycle than a 9MM. AFAIK, the Walther P-38 has the easiest action to work.

Anonymous andon July 16, 2016 3:01 PM  

61. Blogger The Other Robot July 16, 2016 12:03 PM
Did anyone see Obama on TV on Thursday night claiming that "It is easier to get gun than a computer or a book?"


that's how stupid he thinks you are

besides, its apparently easier to get an assault truck than any of those

Blogger Robert Divinity July 16, 2016 3:07 PM  

To raise the birthrate for intelligent White women, abolish the many millions of intrusive, make work, office jobs. And abolish all student loan programs for unneeded majors.

Additionally, we need to drop the age of consent to what it formerly was, 13 or so, and end compulsory education. Early marriage made the United States the sociosexual healthiest nation on Earth until progressivism decided to manage all aspects of our lives. The jobs are disappearing without government intervention, and the elimination of compulsory education would nullify quite a few of the useless seats in colleges and universities.

Anonymous Shut up rabbit July 16, 2016 3:18 PM  

So simple:
Don't. Pay. IQ<85 Parasites. To. Breed!

Blogger Tom Kratman July 16, 2016 3:42 PM  

Mass immigration is, as you've mentioned, (at least often and nowadays perhaps always) a form of war. One thing for which war can be counted on; it will grow government.

Blogger Were-Puppy July 16, 2016 3:55 PM  

@12 Paul Lutgen

What does France or Europe in general, look like in 20 to 30 years considering their low birth rates? Do you think we will have figured out how to clone people or grow babies in vats to replace the population?
---

I'm not sure where this idea of these giant populations comes from. Aren't we billions of people in population over what it was 100 years ago? France did ok back then.

Anonymous g July 16, 2016 4:04 PM  

"But did Victor Hanson also say that the majority of immigrants were peaceful and decent people? This Englishmen is still doing what I see everyone say at dinner parties and get togethers, namely, the few bad apples case."

[I'm posting a response to your comment that was actually made by a commenter named Johann on 1/11/16 at The American Conservative in response to an excellent article titled "Unmaking England".]

[This was actually written by someone who goes by "Johann".] - Political Correctness is not harmless. Opposition to national suicide is suppressed by governments and media mainly by calling the opposition curse words like xenophobes, neo-nazis, or other derogatory terms. It prevents an objective assessment of pros and cons of immigration policies in the public discourse.

Blogger Rusty Fife July 16, 2016 4:10 PM  

Weak Hand Man wrote:Rusty Fife: Most .380s are made with the frame and barrel as one piece. For engineering reasons, that requires a stronger recoil spring, and they are actually harder to cycle than a 9MM. AFAIK, the Walther P-38 has the easiest action to work.

Good to know. Being a member of the M1911 Master Race I hadn't even picked one up to look at it; let alone cycle the slide.

Blogger Were-Puppy July 16, 2016 4:18 PM  

@79 Sheila4g

I feel overwhelmed!
---

You really shouldn't worry about all that - at this point.

The suggestions to rent a few and try them at a range are the best idea. You'll likely find out of the several guns that one of them fits you like a glove.

That's when you look into loading and the other things.

Another suggestion for you to try -
Beretta Nano
Ruger LCP

They are small and for concealed carry, but have found several female like the fit in their hand of these guns.

Blogger Were-Puppy July 16, 2016 4:22 PM  

@84 cheddarman
If the French would go ahead and euthanize the childless boomers as they retire, it would be fitting.
---

Hmm - what were the options again?

a) Logans Run - old boomers already escaped the Sandman
b) Soylent Green - not too late for this
c) Road Warrior - Looks like it was already underway recently
d) Planet of the Apes - We really don't want to go there
e) Kull - I'm not so sure the lizard men aren't running things through subterfuge already :P

Anonymous Rog July 16, 2016 5:17 PM  

The native peoples of Western Europe need to get their hands on some firearms now and by any means necessary.

Blogger Demonic Professor El July 16, 2016 5:47 PM  

@8 Eduardo

Kebabs are all right as food, but not as good as gyros, which is what kebabs basically are.

Like most things Arab/Muzzie, it's just a crappy ripoff of what Europeans or Indians already made.

Anonymous BGKB July 16, 2016 6:02 PM  

nah, antibiotics wont kill the tapeworm. you need anthelmintics for that

I have often wondered if a tapeworm outbreak would be that bad for the US.

Anonymous Millenium July 16, 2016 6:04 PM  

@27 and @35: During the Beslan school hostage situation the muslims killed all the males, some through torture such as cutting off their testicles and stuffing them in their mouths, and then proceeded to rape and torture the school girls for hours until the Russians finally went in. Some girls were raped so bad they died from it. Children were forced to urinate on each other.
The same thing happened when muslims took hostages in the Westgate Mall in Nairobi. Torture, mutiliation, rape.

Anonymous Mr. Rational July 16, 2016 6:05 PM  

Jack Amok wrote:Atheists and other lefties don't have any problem denigrating an entire religion, as long as it's a Christian one.
The murderous insanity of Islam?  The caste-based fossilization of Hinduism?  The superstitious ridiculousness of animism?  Bigot, please!  Just because I found Christianity wanting doesn't mean I don't think everything else is worse.

Discard wrote:Get your kebab from an Armenian. It's good and you haven't given anything to Mecca.
Make mine gyros.  Which reminds me, I haven't had spanokopita or dolmades in ages.

Shut up rabbit wrote:So simple:

Don't. Pay. IQ<85 Parasites. To. Breed!

With the transformation of industry and work the IQ cutoff for productive vs. parasite may now be over 100.  Won't be many Blacks or mestizos that make the grade and of course das rayciss.

What would the USA be like with no dummies?  Vastly lower crime, smaller government, better education, better policies... I hate to compare things to paradise because I know humans can't do it, but it looks like that from here.

Anonymous A.B. Prosper July 16, 2016 6:28 PM  

Silas Birch wrote:"He shall be a wild donkey of a man, his hand against everyone and everyone’s hand against him, and he shall dwell over against all his kinsmen.”

Genesis 16:12

Gods Word rings true to this day !


Or for the noble heathens among us

The Poetic Edda Voluspa

Brothers will fight
and kill each other,
sisters' children
will defile kinship.
It is harsh in the world,
whoredom rife
—an axe age, a sword age
—shields are riven—
a wind age, a wolf age—
before the world goes headlong.
No man will have
mercy on another

Blogger Snidely Whiplash July 16, 2016 7:16 PM  

Mr. Rational wrote:What would the USA be like with no dummies? 

Even if it happened, you'd never know what it was like.

Blogger Tom Kratman July 16, 2016 7:35 PM  

"Another suggestion for you to try -
Beretta Nano
Ruger LCP"

And Glock 42. Women are often both recoil shy and averse to, ya know, actually taking their guns down to clean them. G42 is very light recoil and easy to D&A. It's also highly concealable, which is something that Sheila hasn't been told here yet (AFAICS).

Sheila, the gun you are willing to have with you _all_the_time_ is also the right gun for you.

Anonymous A.B. Prosper July 16, 2016 7:36 PM  

Shut up rabbit wrote:So simple:

Don't. Pay. IQ<85 Parasites. To. Breed!


Useful but its a short term solution since the people you want to breed aren't breeding.

And note being religious or conservative won't increase birth rates . Poland is both . That is a nation on the verge of banning all abortion even for medical reasons. Hungary too is very Conservative

Both of these nations and others like them all have fertility rates below White Scandinavians and Americans, well below. 1.3 is typical

Some of this is Communism aftershock certainly but is economic mostly.

Plain and simple, even if you change society unless you have a stable economy with stable employment, you are risking a very low fertility rate among anyone with a 3 digit or higher IQ.

This will get worse and it may be very soon that very developed and most less developed nations will have fertility rates well under replacement

We might be able to automate enough defenses to keep our land and culture but kept up too long there is no reason that the feral humans won't eventually simply walk into the empty land and take it. Optionally we stop helping and let nature claim them but that won't necessarily work with some cultures who can get buy on nothing.

And note we won't adapt those ideas, we can't and stay Western or industrialized. Yes people can subsist with an AK-47 and some bread I suppose but there is little to no industrial society in that reason since it can't be sustained. No demand basically

There are no good solutions in the works since automation will eventually reach a critical threshold and our cultures do not allow us to impose controls on technology.

My guess long term would be a Right Wing authoritarian civil defense state designed around actual conservationism, social and economic stability and independence . Economic Nationalism. Traditionalist Conservatism and Hard or Ultra-Nationalism basically

Unless Christianity makes a comeback in Europe, this won't be easy to impose if it can be done at all

The other option is social credit/basic income guarantee but it mandates tightly closed borders and homogeneity and might be impossible in non Scandinavian states or basically anywhere but Western Europe

Blogger Tom Kratman July 16, 2016 7:40 PM  

"During the Beslan school hostage situation the muslims killed all the males"

And the proper response to this is to count your victims by age and sex, multiply by 100 to ten thousand, for each age and sex, depending on how annoyed you are and how boneheaded the enemy is, and nail them up in public. Oh, and leave them there, of course.

Special care should be given to getting at the perps' families and home towns, but if you can't, any wogs will do in a pinch.

Another, possibly better, approach, is to multiply by 100 if you can get at their families and home towns, but by ten thousand if you can't and to use nukes in that case.

Specific and genocidal terror work.

Blogger Tom Kratman July 16, 2016 7:43 PM  

"And note being religious or conservative won't increase birth rates . Poland is both . That is a nation on the verge of banning all abortion even for medical reasons. Hungary too is very Conservative."

One suspects, _strongly_ suspects, that most women are generally in tune with the world situation in a way men are not, that they somehow know when really bad times are coming, and stop getting pregnant or bearing more than the minimal number of children that they can take care of under the shittiest of circumstances. They may well not even be aware that this is going on, either.

Blogger James Dixon July 16, 2016 7:55 PM  

> I think Vox forgot another option - partition.

Partition is just another form of surrender.

> Right, as if denigrating an entire religion is really going to help matters.

It doesn't seem to hurt the left in the US any. Remember Obama's guns and Bibles quote.

> Lots of people seem to think that Pence is the LBJ of the Trump ticket.

A fair assessment, as far as I can tell.

> I would have expected a few torched mosques by now.

Give them time. It's coming.

Blogger James Dixon July 16, 2016 7:58 PM  

Re: comment 120.

Absolutely.

Blogger Cail Corishev July 16, 2016 8:03 PM  

Lots of people seem to think that Pence is the LBJ of the Trump ticket.

I'm not sure what that means, but I find myself wondering how different opinions of him would be if he were being selected by Candidate Cruz (whom he supported) instead of Candidate Trump.

Blogger Thucydides July 16, 2016 8:23 PM  

Le Pen has called for a "declaration of war" against Islamic fanatics, and the French government is calling for a Levée en masse of sorts (asking young, able bodies Frenchmen to join the Reserves), so we are seeing baby steps.

At some point, refugee centres and the Islamic "no go zones" around the major French cities will start to go up in flames. That will certainly trigger a lot of "self deportation". One big issue is the large numbers of second and third generation Muslims in Europe, who, strictly speaking cannot be deported since they are citizens of their nation by birth (although obviously not citizens in the true sense of the word by belonging to the national culture as well).

Still, the cleansing fires should serve as a signal and warning to the rest of Europe. Vox's prediction of a Reconquista seems to be the sure bet, and a Crusade to take back the formerly Christian parts of the Levant is also in order at this point.

Anonymous Rodger That July 16, 2016 8:59 PM  

Discard wrote:To raise the birthrate for intelligent White women, abolish the many millions of intrusive, make work, office jobs. And abolish all student loan programs for unneeded majors.

A good start on rebuilding our universities would be to eliminate all majors/departments with the word "studies" in the title.

Blogger Groot July 16, 2016 9:04 PM  

I wonder if some way could be devised to ensure that, in today's world where a key driver for having kids is wanting to have kids, those who wanted kids would somehow be more likely to pass on their genes, ensuring that future generations, with increasing frequency, would be more likely to be derived from these kid-loving genetic outliers. Hmmmm...

Anonymous Mr. Rational July 16, 2016 9:09 PM  

Snidely Whiplash wrote:Mr. Rational wrote:What would the USA be like with no dummies? 

Even if it happened, you'd never know what it was like.

So how good is your trig and calculus, Mr. Whiplash?  You have all the marks of someone who thinks in concretes and emotions, lashing out at someone who doesn't share your shibboleths.

A.B. Prosper wrote:We might be able to automate enough defenses to keep our land and culture but kept up too long there is no reason that the feral humans won't eventually simply walk into the empty land and take it.
Unless the defenses are self-maintaining there will be skilled jobs keeping them up.  Skilled jobs, with the security of resources from the land those defenses are holding, would do it.

Blogger Tom Kratman July 16, 2016 9:13 PM  

"would somehow be more likely to pass on their genes"

Genes or memes or both; the effect is likely to be the same.

Anonymous Millenium July 16, 2016 9:27 PM  

Often overlooked in arguments about declining birthrates is the effect our sterile, rigid, regimented schooling system and prolonged adolesence has on girls.

Prior to the modern prussian schooling system and college for everyone mentality children spent time around everyone from the elderly to babies, older girls babysitting and caring for younger siblings or cousins, learning domestic skills from their mother and grandmother. Boys took pride in teaching younger boys things and in turn were taught things by older boys. Men taught boys life skills and presented the example that the successful man was the one who raised his family and was respected in the community.

Adulthood in those times meant finding a mate and starting a family. Adulthood now means going to adult daycare while racking up debt, struggling to live on your own, working jobs you hate to pay for mind numbing distractions and meaningless sex. The nearest most girls come now to a baby is being given, for a few uncomfortable minutes, someone else's baby at a rare family gathering. Community is non existent and you have more in common with a random shitposter on the net than the mystery meat living next door who no speakee engwish.

Anonymous Spartacus xxxxx July 16, 2016 9:29 PM  

Were-Puppy wrote:@84 cheddarman

If the French would go ahead and euthanize the childless boomers as they retire, it would be fitting.

---

Hmm - what were the options again?

a) Logans Run - old boomers already escaped the Sandman

b) Soylent Green - not too late for this

c) Road Warrior - Looks like it was already underway recently

d) Planet of the Apes - We really don't want to go there

e) Kull - I'm not so sure the lizard men aren't running things through subterfuge already :P



We already are already. And we're not going away any time soon either. In fact, we'll be around for a long, long time to come, thanks to not having to bother with raising you whiny, Gex X latchkey kids and your creepy-crawly 'Son' of Gen X'ers. And Soylent Green is totally like grooving with us man: we'll finally get something worthwhile out of you for our luxurious retirement years. Hey Jose? Throw another Gen X on the barbie, biatch.

Blogger Lazarus July 16, 2016 9:37 PM  

Some things other countries with more sense are doing:

A short but inclusive report on the following countries which are the first to ban Islam. See how the rest of the world is acting fast on the threat posed by Islam and its barbaric Sharia Law.

Japan has always refused to allow Muslims to live permanently in their country and they cannot own any real estate or any type of business, and they have banned any worship of Islam. Any Muslim tourist caught spreading the word of Islam will be deported immediately, including all family members.

Cuba rejects plans for first mosque.

The African nation of Angola and several other African nations have officially banned Islam.

Record number of Muslims, (thousands) deported from Norway as a way of fighting crime. Since these Muslim criminals have been deported, crime has dropped by a staggering 72%. Prison officials are reporting that nearly half of their jail cells are now vacant, courtrooms nearly empty, police now free to attend to other matters, mainly traffic offences to keep their roads and highways safe and assisting the public in as many ways as they can.


Have the Crusades Begun?/Article.aspx/19202

Blogger Lazarus July 16, 2016 9:42 PM  

Oh, never mind, on further research, it may all be bs.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash July 16, 2016 10:21 PM  

Still impressed with yourself, Mr. R? Well, it's nice for you that someone is.

If you're so smart, why are you an Atheist?

Blogger The Other Robot July 16, 2016 10:26 PM  

Police said “the man had hurled himself into the cab when the 20 tonne truck was held up by an obstruction. He wrestled with the driver, who seized a revolver and fired several shots at the man and at police officers who arrived on the scene. None was hurt. The driver was then shot dead by two officers.”

No word of the female police officer who also shot him dead, several times.

Blogger Rusty Fife July 16, 2016 10:38 PM  

A.B. Prosper wrote:

We might be able to automate enough defenses to keep our land and culture but kept up too long there is no reason that the feral humans won't eventually simply walk into the empty land and take it. Optionally we stop helping and let nature claim them but that won't necessarily work with some cultures who can get buy on nothing.


Nuclear powered blimps with a LASER gun that generates hydrogen for lift. Tons of human detecting sensors and bammo; a country is totally uninhabitable for all people.

The technology is not the limitation, only the will.

Pray for us.

Blogger Teri July 16, 2016 10:49 PM  

We have Armenian friends. One took my stepson out shooting. He told his dad "I teach him to kill Muslims".

Blogger The Other Robot July 16, 2016 11:22 PM  

As for those who object that the mass deportations will lead to bigger government, well, it's too late.

If they go the extermination route and subcontract it to individual French people, then there is no need for a bigger government.

Free expression of Charles Martel values.

Blogger The Other Robot July 16, 2016 11:39 PM  

There is a bit in here that reminds me of The Missionaries:

5 Guns to Buy Before an Election

Anonymous Mr. Rational July 16, 2016 11:45 PM  

Snidely Whiplash wrote:If you're so smart, why are you an Atheist?
You have it backwards.  I'm an atheist because I'm smart, and all the arguments given to me for Christianity were circular, false-to-fact or otherwise insulting to my intelligence.  I was raised in it, but I got to the point where I could not stomach it.

I'm not interested in reconsidering the issue.  I don't see how anyone can make an intellectually compelling case for something which declares that it MUST be taken on faith (faith that its own proponents' abuses of reason destroyed in me), and I am quite smart enough to declare that I have better things to do after 40+ years of ignoring all the preaching.  My own purposes take precedence over going through some tome to find the places where conclusions have been leapt to or axioms declared as results.  I had enough of that in the days of talk.origins on Usenet.  No thank you, I have no more fucks to give about it.

Blogger Were-Puppy July 16, 2016 11:47 PM  

@113 BGKB

I have often wondered if a tapeworm outbreak would be that bad for the US.
---

And a return of the tapeworm removal legend - a piece of steak on a string you drop down someones throat, then reel that 20' long worm in.

Blogger Were-Puppy July 16, 2016 11:54 PM  

@124 Cail Corishev

I find myself wondering how different opinions of him would be if he were being selected by Candidate Cruz (whom he supported) instead of Candidate Trump.
---

Candidate Cruz chose Snarly Furina.

Anonymous johnc July 17, 2016 12:02 AM  

@124 I'm not sure what that means

It means Trump should avoid any open-car cavalcades.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash July 17, 2016 2:48 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Anonymous Bukulu July 17, 2016 3:00 AM  

Rodger @ 126,

Crap, there goes my hope for a sinecure appointment to an endowed chair in Physics Studies!

Anonymous Jack Amok July 17, 2016 3:24 AM  

Good to know. Being a member of the M1911 Master Race I hadn't even picked one up to look at it; let alone cycle the slide.

If you ever do, just remember. Wash your hands afterwards in Balistol, and keep washing them long enough to say "John Moses Browning" twenty times.

Bigot, please! Just because I found Christianity wanting doesn't mean I don't think everything else is worse.

Are you by some chance under the impression Mr. Rational that I am a practicing member of a Christian church?

Anonymous Mr. Rational July 17, 2016 3:26 AM  

Snidely Whiplash wrote:My point exactly. You take Atheism on Faith and claim it's dispassionate and rational.
You are too stupid for words.

I take atheism as the best option because every theism presented to me (including the one I was raised in) has been justified in absolutely ridiculous terms.  Theists have had more than 4 decades to make a serious case to me, and haven't.

You congratulate yourself on your rationality in taking a purely emotional stance
Christards Always Project.

and look down your nose at people who came to the opposite conlcusion on purely rational grounds.
You could have made your case to me in the 1970's.  You preferred to try to sell me on blind faith and book-burning (literally!) instead.  Fuck off.

Anonymous Mr. Rational July 17, 2016 3:33 AM  

Jack Amok wrote:Are you by some chance under the impression Mr. Rational that I am a practicing member of a Christian church?
Jack Amok, I admit that I have not paid enough attention to your positions to have any notion of what you believe.  I am not responding to you.  If you want to make a case to me, go ahead... but I cannot say I have the time to consider it as seriously as you want it to be taken.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash July 17, 2016 3:48 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash July 17, 2016 4:29 AM  

Having been warned extensively on my habit of going seriously off topic when replying to idiots, cretins and posers, I have deleted my replies.

Just keep in mind, Mr. R, while you may be taken in by your rationalizations, few others are.

Blogger James Dixon July 17, 2016 8:56 AM  

> You have it backwards. I'm an atheist because I'm smart,

Do you have any idea how many times we've heard that argument? And do you have any idea how many times said "intelligence" was demonstrated to be grossly exaggerated?

> ...and all the arguments given to me for Christianity were circular, false-to-fact or otherwise insulting to my intelligence.

Christ rose from the dead or he didn't. The statement that he did isn't an argument, it's a statement of fact which can be examined. If it's false, Christianity is false, no matter what other arguments people may make. But apparently being "smart" is more important to you than determining the truth.

Blogger Rusty Fife July 17, 2016 10:05 AM  

@151 James Dixon

My favorite part of Christianity is that the Jews have had it in their power to falsify it for 60yrs (or 2,000 but who's counting). One simple act would destroy the faith; build the Temple.

Yet, there it is The Dome of The Rock. Where is their David?

Blogger Rusty Fife July 17, 2016 10:16 AM  

Jack Amok wrote:Good to know. Being a member of the M1911 Master Race I hadn't even picked one up to look at it; let alone cycle the slide.

If you ever do, just remember. Wash your hands afterwards in Balistol, and keep washing them long enough to say "John Moses Browning" twenty times.


I knew there had to be a purification ritual. I didn't realise it was also my shaving ritual.

Blogger Amahl_Shukup July 17, 2016 1:28 PM  

I fear that (most of) America doesn't have the stomach for what it's going to take to get our country back. I do, and I suspect most on this blog do too, but probably not Middle America, the folks who have grown up on diversity and tolerance and a steady IV drip of peace-and-love-will-overcome-all.

No, what it's going to take is mass deportation, possibly even extermination for the most pernicious neighborhood "no go" zones. We can make America pure and safe again, we have the means and we have the technology and weapons to do it.

Do we as a people have the stomach for it? I suspect not. Maybe Middle America should just close their doors and tune in to Dr. Phil and Oprah re-runs, and allow us to do the dirty work.

All they have to lose is their chains.

Anonymous Mr. Rational July 17, 2016 2:21 PM  

James Dixon wrote:Do you have any idea how many times we've heard that argument??
You seem to have difficulty understanding the difference between "argument" and "statement of fact".  I've told you how and why I arrived at the beliefs I hold.  You can either believe me or not.  It is not an argument.  Claiming that it is is silly.

And do you have any idea how many times said "intelligence" was demonstrated to be grossly exaggerated?
<shrug>  Ask me if I care.  Point-and-shriek isn't an argument either.

Christ rose from the dead or he didn't. The statement that he did isn't an argument, it's a statement of fact which can be examined.
It is a claim of fact, but one for which the evidence is extremely sketchy and belief in it justified with statements like "credo quia absurdum est".  Sorry, I've seen people believing in too many different kinds of absurdity to give credence to any of them.

There's another reason to hold absurdities at arm's length:  "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities."  We spend a lot of time on this blog pointing out the absurdities and atrocities of the left, but the log in your own eye needs attention too.

If it's false, Christianity is false, no matter what other arguments people may make.
We know Mormonism is false, because Native Americans are provably not descended from Jews.  For some reason that hasn't persuaded LDS to shut down.  Just because something is false doesn't stop people from believing in it.

But apparently being "smart" is more important to you than determining the truth.
I can't jump back 2000 years to get documentary evidence of Christianity's claims.  Neither can you, the creationist shibboleth question "were you there?" notwithstanding.  I have reached my own conclusions regarding what I was given in my birth church's attempts to indoctrinate me.  I concluded it was garbage.  Maybe there is non-garbage out there, but (a) that begs the question why that wasn't taught instead, and (b) I no longer care.

Frankly, when your holy book declares that pi = 3.0 (and that's not the only place either), you have a tough row to hoe.

Blogger Tom Kratman July 17, 2016 4:24 PM  

Smartness-wise, it would appear to be at least minimally bright to know the difference between an approximation and a statement of mathematical law, especially when using somewhat iffy and variable measures like cubits. And then there's that whole non-Euclidean geometry issue. Perhaps you can, if you look, find better examples for evidence of your point.

Blogger Tom Kratman July 17, 2016 4:37 PM  

By the way, M. R., I am not personally bothered by it if someone is an atheist, considering that it may well be necessary, for some souls, to demonstrate virtue in the complete absence of expectation of a reward for virtue. Not my issue, in any case.

However, the notion that intelligence drives or leads someone to atheism or from faith seems to me specious. Why? Why because one doubts that intelligence has the slightest thing to do with it. IOW, one either feels it or one doesn't, quite irrespective of one's intelligence. If you don't feel it; well, how can I or anyone insist you feel something you do not? The most I can say is, "Go in peace and prove in your own way to the God you are not being allowed to believe in that you're worth keeping around."

Still, as for intelligence, you can leave me out of it, Vox out of it, Stickwick out of it, or any of the other three and four nines denizens of this joint out of it...but how do you leave Socrates and Aristotle out of it? How Goethe and Gauss? Are you brighter than they were? If so, I am, indeed, impressed. If not, and if you claim intelligence and atheism go hand in hand, you have a serious argumentative problem due to people whose superior intelligence cannot be doubted, but who still believed in the Divinity or divinities.

Blogger Tom Kratman July 17, 2016 4:40 PM  

By the way, M. R., I am not personally bothered by it if someone is an atheist, considering that it may well be necessary, for some souls, to demonstrate virtue in the complete absence of expectation of a reward for virtue. Not my issue, in any case.

However, the notion that intelligence drives or leads someone to atheism or from faith seems to me specious. Why? Why because one doubts that intelligence has the slightest thing to do with it. IOW, one either feels it or one doesn't, quite irrespective of one's intelligence. If you don't feel it; well, how can I or anyone insist you feel something you do not? The most I can say is, "Go in peace and prove in your own way to the God you are not being allowed to believe in that you're worth keeping around."

Still, as for intelligence, you can leave me out of it, Vox out of it, Stickwick out of it, or any of the other three and four nines denizens of this joint out of it...but how do you leave Socrates and Aristotle out of it? How Goethe and Gauss? Are you brighter than they were? If so, I am, indeed, impressed. If not, and if you claim intelligence and atheism go hand in hand, you have a serious argumentative problem due to people whose superior intelligence cannot be doubted, but who still believed in the Divinity or divinities.

Blogger Tom Kratman July 17, 2016 4:40 PM  

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Blogger Snidely Whiplash July 17, 2016 4:43 PM  

Tom Kratman wrote:. Perhaps you can, if you look, find better examples for evidence of your point.

HE doesn't look. He goes to Atheist sites and copies their proof-texts.

Anonymous Eduardo July 17, 2016 4:44 PM  

Hmm already heard of that once by chance. Let's see this, it took a thirty cubits rope to measure thirty one cubits point four perimeter. A horrendous mistake of about... 4.5%.

Considering that part tells the general size of the structure and not a mathematical treatise, it seems acceptable.

Blogger Tom Kratman July 17, 2016 4:45 PM  

I was being, shall we say, uncommonly gentle, SW.

Anonymous Anonymous July 17, 2016 4:48 PM  

Well,there was some plan from the "remigration movement" http://www.remigration.me to create foreign enclave and incentives there ties with their homeland (shared welfare between France and ...whatever) with strict control of movement to slowly sieve the population or when the shit hits the fan "clean" the area.
They were vocal about that few years ago, now they act like an undercover operation (admissions only if your profile seems fit).
For the French speaking, ozon explains his plans in http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3PF9Kz-6C5o

Anonymous Eduardo July 17, 2016 4:54 PM  

Well he is a talk.origins veteran soooo...

You see the only way these arguments work, these whole Bible contradictions thing, is to assume that the Bible is exactly, and I mean 100% precisely, what God said. If that assumption is true, then yes the Bible seems pretty hard to coexist with the Notion of a perfect God. (although hoth beliefs actually come from two different theological point of views so technically no one should believe in Them both to begin with)

Blogger Snidely Whiplash July 17, 2016 5:03 PM  

Eduardo wrote:You see the only way these arguments work, these whole Bible contradictions thing, is to assume that the Bible is exactly, and I mean 100% precisely, what God said. If that assumption is true, then yes the Bible seems pretty hard to coexist with the Notion of a perfect God. (although hoth beliefs actually come from two different theological point of views so technically no one should believe in Them both to begin with)

That "Scripture is perfect and was handed down by God word-for-word" BS is specifically what Moslems believe about the Koran. No serious literate Christian believes it, or has ever believed it. Nor Jew, for that matter.

But Ol' "I'm so smart I don't know how to read for context and meaning" Mr. R would call that a dodge.

Blogger Tom Kratman July 17, 2016 5:03 PM  

It's really not, Eduardo. I figure you're likely Catholic, hence accept that much of the Bible is allegorical, say, teaching points, which, in itself, says something about God's purpose.

Too, God, so it is said (and must be accepted if He is omnipotent such that even time means nothing to, nor causes any limitation on, Him), lives in the eternal present, looking down upon the universe or universes as we might look down upon a road map. On that scale of difference, we lack the capacity to even begin to comprehend the faintest outline of the dimmest shadow of what perfection means. That's how far outside our moral scale and ability to judge God exists or, rather, that's an illustrative of a tiny fraction of how far outside our abilities He exists.

Anonymous Eduardo July 17, 2016 5:16 PM  

I am Raised Catholic. I am more of a... Non-denominational theist. Actually I just always had the allegorical idea about the Bible, nobody taught me that.

But I am very secular so you can bet almost all retardation that Mister Mister (broken wings bro!) has; I also share some mild level of that too, so I understand where he come from. Trust me, thinking outside the box is almost skull crushing effort, because our reasoning and criterias are held so dear to us (I believe this is a human thing really, not a secular human thing only).

But Kratman, think about it. if God is so out of reach for us, something that I agree to a certain extent, it would be okay to make any kind of mistake during the writing. Let alone 4.5% mistake on something that is what; irrelevent to the the story at hand if I am not mistaken.

Blogger Tom Kratman July 17, 2016 5:21 PM  

Probably not _any_ kind of mistake but minor one's that do not alter the story or teaching point? Yes, I suspect that's beneath His notice or, if not notice, concern.

Anonymous Eduardo July 17, 2016 5:25 PM  

Actually Snidely it is secular indoctrination. Since most people when young don't live their religion whole heartly, they tend to be easy to trick with false "facts" about their religion. So you invent a list of half-truths and you put them down (strawman) and all the "magic" of religion dies there, before you had a chance to even learn it.

The emotional scaring is so patheically strong that you turn into Dawkins and become an annoying sorry angry-at-the-world person. Hence why they feel so secluded from the world, no-one wants to share that.

But after that... God have Mercy on your candy-ass, cause its hard to even think about being different.

Anonymous Mr. Rational July 17, 2016 6:20 PM  

Tom Kratman wrote:how do you leave Socrates and Aristotle out of it? How Goethe and Gauss? Are you brighter than they were?
Are you brighter than Pascal and Voltaire?  I wouldn't compare myself to either of them.

Today we stand on the shoulders of giants, who have given us actual, comprehensible, testable explanations for things which once had to be waved away with supernatural causes, or, at the most humble and honest, "we don't know".  Socrates and Aristotle, however bright they were, had to suffer in ignorance; they helped establish the foundations but could have no inkling of what would be built on them.  Even Democritus was just guessing.  Goethe and Gauss?  Goethe wrote some fine fiction but Gauss is honored for his scientific work, not his piety.

Today, the more expertise someone has in matters like the life sciences, the less likely it is that they have anything like religious belief.  Philosophy, yes; religion, no.  Now why would that be?  Maybe... confirmed, testable knowledge disproves the dogmas?  The patterns of thinking required to ferret out scientific truth make religious thought an alien place?

one either feels it or one doesn't, quite irrespective of one's intelligence. If you don't feel it; well, how can I or anyone insist you feel something you do not? The most I can say is, "Go in peace and prove in your own way to the God you are not being allowed to believe in that you're worth keeping around."
Would that everyone were so tolerant, it would be far easier to get along.

Snidely Whiplash wrote:HE doesn't look. He goes to Atheist sites and copies their proof-texts.
Haven't bothered looking at one of those in ten years, maybe more (unless you count talkorigins.org which I scan now and then for stock rebuttals to creationist tropes).  Haven't bought a print magazine like Reason since 2010.  This may be hard for you to grasp, but the issue is just not important enough to some of us to spend any real time on it.  I address things when they come up in passing, otherwise it's just not part of my life.  I'd prefer that it never was again.

Eduardo wrote:it took a thirty cubits rope to measure thirty one cubits point four perimeter. A horrendous mistake of about... 4.5%.
The ancient Greeks knew that pi was closer to 22/7 than 21/7.  Even with your rope you'd know that thirty cubits was short.  Full and inerrant truth?  When you start having to make excuses for errors like that you've lost the argument.

Snidely Whiplash wrote:That "Scripture is perfect and was handed down by God word-for-word" BS is specifically what Moslems believe about the Koran. No serious literate Christian believes it, or has ever believed it.
But that's the justification for "scientific" creationism, anti-abortion and a host of other things.  So where do you draw the line?

Ol' "I'm so smart I don't know how to read for context and meaning" Mr. R would call that a dodge.
Are you saying that the 30 number is a wink wink indicating that "everything here is not exactly what it says literally"?  That rabbit hole goes mighty deep.

Anonymous Mr. Rational July 17, 2016 6:23 PM  

Eduardo wrote:Since most people when young don't live their religion whole heartly, they tend to be easy to trick with false "facts" about their religion. So you invent a list of half-truths and you put them down (strawman) and all the "magic" of religion dies there, before you had a chance to even learn it.
Everything I was taught about religion came from my family and church.  It was learning to think about other things, and seeing how they fit together the way religion didn't, that finally ended it for me.

Blogger Tom Kratman July 17, 2016 6:40 PM  

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Blogger James Dixon July 17, 2016 6:40 PM  

> You seem to have difficulty understanding the difference between "argument" and "statement of fact".

Touche.

> Ask me if I care.

Then why post about it?

But as I've needed to point out to others, it's not always the person I'm responding to that I'm actually talking to.

> It is a claim of fact, but one for which the evidence is extremely sketchy and belief in it justified with statements like "credo quia absurdum est".

Then don't believe it. But not believing it doesn't make you an atheist, it makes you an agnostic. An atheist has to claim it didn't happen.

> I can't jump back 2000 years to get documentary evidence of Christianity's claims. Neither can you,

Again, lack of sufficient evidence is an argument for agnosticism, not atheism. Yet you chose atheism.

> The patterns of thinking required to ferret out scientific truth make religious thought an alien place?

Newton (one amongst many) would be surprised to hear that.

Blogger Tom Kratman July 17, 2016 6:40 PM  

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Blogger Snidely Whiplash July 17, 2016 6:47 PM  

Yep, they've answered all the questions. Except
"Why is there such a thing as a physical universe at all?"
Mere being, the mere physical existence of the universe, violates every known rule of the physical universe.
But you will falsely claim a humble "We don't know" or like Asimov, hand-wave the badthink away with magic formulae like "Quantum Vacuum Fluctuations" or hurry on to such metaphysical disasters as multiple universes, or an oscillating universe.
Because you a ril smert sneering jackass.

Anonymous Eduardo July 17, 2016 6:47 PM  

I doubt you only learned about religion from your family and your church.

There is a world put there and it most definately has an opinion on religion and that opinion is out there for those who have ears. You most likely picked things here and there as well, from other people you trusted.

------------

Well you are the one assuming that full and inerrent truth is true, and it means whatever the meaning you give to it as you know... As I have said it. Look all contradiction arguments against the Bible rest on that assumption, which is not a across the board Christian assumption. But it does seem like a across the board assumption for many net atheys.

Sorry I didn't lose any argument, only IF I meant to assume the Bible as exactly what God has said. I said that in the thread. You are probably skimming through the answers...

Anonymous Eduardo July 17, 2016 6:51 PM  

Actually the pervasive materialism in academia makes religious thought alien because duh... Hehehe should be obvious.

;-) intelligence!!!

Blogger Tom Kratman July 17, 2016 7:35 PM  

I might actually be brighter, but it would be a hard case to prove, all things considered. On the other hand, I'm not the one claiming that atheism and intelligence inevitably go hand in hand; you are. I, on the other hand, am claiming that intelligence is irrelevant to the question, which you have, perhaps without realizing it, confirmed.

What Gauss is honored for doesn't really address what he believed, which seems to have been in the Christian God, if not necessarily any particular human expression of Him.

Blogger Tom Kratman July 17, 2016 7:38 PM  

"I am Raised Catholic. I am more of a... Non-denominational theist."

Ah, a backslider. As my former law parter used to say to me, "Stalin, Hitler, Kratman; all backsliders." This was, of course, before I went back to being considerably more of an observant Catholic.

Anonymous Eduardo July 17, 2016 8:12 PM  

Let's just say that... Mass was too boring XD. But now that I grew up, I can see things in a different light.

Blogger Tom Kratman July 17, 2016 9:02 PM  

This often happens, Eduardo. One observes that God probably doesn't need us to go to mass, for any imaginable good it does Him, but that we need mass for ourselves.

Anonymous Discard July 17, 2016 9:12 PM  

Years ago, the President of Caltech and at least two physicists on the faculty regularly attended my church. There are really smart and scientifically knowledgeable people, including ones living today, that are Christians. Therefore, a claim of having high intelligence is not an argument against theism.

Anonymous Mr. Rational July 18, 2016 12:39 AM  

James Dixon wrote:Then don't believe it. But not believing it doesn't make you an atheist, it makes you an agnostic. An atheist has to claim it didn't happen.
No, you have it wrong.  I don't believe it happened, and I have no theism:  a-theist.  There's no documentary evidence remaining and what's been claimed that's been adequately tested (like the Shroud of Turin) have been proven to be forgeries.  I don't have to claim the negative, and it can't be proven anyway; the burden of proof is on you.

lack of sufficient evidence is an argument for agnosticism, not atheism
Agnosticism is claiming not to know, IIUC.  I claim that the evidence we have does not justify such a charitable position, and a deity who is so demanding yet hides so completely is about as perverse as the Allah conjured up in the psychotic ravings of that murderous 7th-century goatfucker (I much prefer to believe in a universe that's indifferent than one which is malign).  There, I've cemented my anti-Islam credentials.

Newton (one amongst many) would be surprised to hear that.
Newton made his major contributions in mathematics, and he was as strange or stranger than the legendary mathematicians of the 20th century.  They're weird ducks indeed.  Did you know he spent most of his efforts on alchemy?  All for nothing, barking up a completely wrong tree.  I see religion as more of the same, save as a method of manipulating people.  It is PHENOMENALLY good for that.

Snidely Whiplash wrote:Yep, they've answered all the questions. Except

"Why is there such a thing as a physical universe at all?"

If it wasn't here, you wouldn't be able to ask the question.  Next!

Mere being, the mere physical existence of the universe, violates every known rule of the physical universe.
Now you've descended to Truth By Blatant Assertion.  Maybe you can get to Truth By Primate Feces Missiles by close of business Friday, and finish your backwards recapitulation of human evolution to the last common ancestor with chimps.

Eduardo wrote:I doubt you only learned about religion from your family and your church.
Perhaps it's more accurate to say that I learned about my religious teachers from the other things I learned at the time.  It's impossible to remember clearly words from 4+ decades ago, but between the calls for book-burning and everything else, I decided that the people trying to make a good believer out of me were not worth believing themselves.  They did not see reality properly; what I did not consider at the time is that they may have been trying to make me see reality improperly.  That actually explains a lot.

the pervasive materialism in academia makes religious thought alien because duh...
Except I'd essentially finished this process by age 14.

Anonymous Eduardo July 18, 2016 1:04 AM  

Why the universe is here? Because if it wasn't we wouldn't be able to ask the question. My Golly that is ... Textual misinterpretation FTW.

It does explains a lot, Mr Emotional (and no, unlike you I don't really believe that disqualifies you so settle down). But I understand where you coming from no problem, probably would make the same decisions as you did if I were in your shoes facing THAT situation.

Hmmm? So you became a materialist by 14? Sooo... What does that have to do with a pervasive ideology in an institution?

Anonymous Eduardo July 18, 2016 1:12 AM  

Newton's biggest volume of works is: Theology.

His work on alchemy was in the end of his life after doing sever works on natural philosophy.

Funny the Shroud is fake? That is weird, you talking about those Carbon-14 tests taken from the medieval sides? which were patches from the centuries of handling the thing every Sunday. You know just like books get new covers after years of handling.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash July 18, 2016 1:48 AM  

Mr. R
What physical law alliws you to violate entropy?
Saying, as you do, that it is violated therefore there is such a law merely begs the question.
I can explain it within my cosmology. You claim to but cannot. Instead you descend to ad hominem mockery. You're a poser and an idiot.
You want to claim you discerned the secrets of the universe at the age of 14. It's ludicrous on its face.

Anonymous Mr. Rational July 18, 2016 12:48 PM  

Eduardo wrote:Newton's biggest volume of works is: Theology.
And they're read by whom?  Chip Delany's biggest volume of works is Dahlgren and Hogg, or something like that.  These things have zero value.

you talking about those Carbon-14 tests taken from the medieval sides? which were patches from the centuries of handling the thing every Sunday.
You are saying that the conservators of the Shroud, who had every interest in proving it authentic and controlled the process, deliberately provided material they knew was not original?  Doesn't pass the smell test.

There are other inconvenient facts about the Shroud that the credulous simply won't acknowledge:

1.  The image is much taller than contemporary Jews.  Nobody described Jesus as a towering figure.
2.  The proportions of the hands and face are wrong... but they are consistent with medieval iconography.

Occam's razor says that there is money to be made in fake antiquities and relics, and fraud is par for the course.  Wahhabists ban such things, and may actually have a point.

Snidely Whiplash wrote:What physical law alliws you to violate entropy?
Entropy is a macroscopic property, and it is being continuously diluted by the expansion of the universe.  For its first 300,000 years the universe was composed of hot plasma and effectively in a "heat death" state.  Expansion cooled it until atoms could form, whereupon the heat was converted to light which became the CBR.  The original CBR at several thousand K is now red-shifted and diluted to 2.7 K.

Saying, as you do, that it is violated therefore there is such a law merely begs the question.
I'll wager you know nothing about entropy you haven't gotten from creatonut websites, and can't even define ΔS without looking it up.

I can explain it within my cosmology. You claim to but cannot. Instead you descend to ad hominem mockery.
I mock you because you are unable to make a serious argument.  You can't even re-state my words accurately; doing so honestly would leave you without a case.

You're a poser and an idiot.

You want to claim you discerned the secrets of the universe at the age of 14.

Let's see:  ad-hominem and straw-man right there.  Lying AND projection.  RJW much?

Blogger Snidely Whiplash July 18, 2016 12:50 PM  

Mr. Rational wrote:Snidely Whiplash wrote:What physical law alliws you to violate entropy?

Entropy is a macroscopic property, and it is being continuously diluted by the expansion of the universe. 


Description is not explanation, fuckwit.

Anonymous Mr. Rational July 18, 2016 12:58 PM  

Insults aren't an argument either.... fuckwit.

I'll try to explain these things to you if you do 3 things first:

1.  Provide an authoritative (to you) source for the entropy argument.

2.  Locate a solid debunking from mainstream science sources.

3.  Show how the debunking is erroneous.

If you can't even understand the argument and counter-argument there's no point talking to you.

Anonymous Eduardo July 18, 2016 1:11 PM  

I didn't know that importance is based on readers and not content... Obviously you and I are pretty damn worthless.

The scientists themselves cut the piece of the shroud the conservators didn't have all that control that you thinking, which makes sense because as a scientist, I would want to check the source material I am collecting.

Smell test? Lol...

Occam's Razor says that we ought choose simpler explanations over complex ones because, truth not being attenable we ought to stick with less time consuming explanations. It is a nominalist thing. That which you just did is not Occam's razor.

But hey, guess what, I read a bit about the shroud and it seems it is indeed a painting from the end kf the Medievak ages, some studies from the first decade of the 20th century analysed eye witnesses and documents from that time and it seems that it was meant to be a painting to celebrate Easter. Read that in a catholic encyclopedia...

Will read your link... I don't think the credulous even know these criticisms, you yourself know zero theistic philosophy despite talking about related subjects. It just happens really, ignorance about a Subject is hard to counter without an actual desire to do research. No fault there IMO.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash July 18, 2016 1:47 PM  

Okay, fuckwit

First law of thermodynamics – Energy can neither be created nor destroyed. It can only change forms. In any process, the total energy of the universe remains the same. For a thermodynamic cycle the net heat supplied to the system equals the net work done by the system.

Second law of thermodynamics – The entropy of an isolated system not in equilibrium will tend to increase over time, approaching a maximum value at equilibrium.


As you acknowledge above, the universe has a start, a beginning, prior to which it did not exist.

Given that matter/energy in an isolated system can neither be created nor destroyed, and that net entropy must always increase,
how is it possible under the laws of physics for the universe to exist?

Your response merely says it happened. Which is pretty obvious.

Anonymous Eduardo July 18, 2016 3:08 PM  

Well folks gonna ya to your quarrel. Found a huge site about the Shroud, so I might read that a bit.

ciao folks! 8D

Blogger Tom Kratman July 18, 2016 3:30 PM  

"And they're read by whom?"

That's at least the second time you've done something like that. Please stop. When the question is what someone believed, someone who was clearly very intelligent, it is not refuted by how others take it or how much it is read by others or what they are honored for. These answers are irrelevant, completely off point, and silly. I think - hope, at least - that you're brighter than that and can do a better job. If you can't then your initial comment about atheism because intelligent is self refuted. Try to do better, please.

Anonymous Mr. Rational July 18, 2016 9:44 PM  

Eduardo wrote:I didn't know that importance is based on readers and not content... Obviously you and I are pretty damn worthless.
How much influence do you or I have?  I don't delude myself.

Newton denied the trinity and never took Anglican orders.  Nobody reads his religious stuff except scholars of Isaac Newton.  He has negligible influence there.

Wikipedia, OTOH, has an interesting bit:The clarity and simplicity of science was seen as a way to combat the emotional and metaphysical superlatives of both superstitious enthusiasm and the threat of atheism,[131] and at the same time, the second wave of English deists used Newton's discoveries to demonstrate the possibility of a "Natural Religion".
"Deeper Into Superstition" would make a good title for a book which sums up where conservative Christianity has been going from the time I was growing up.  And you wonder why I reject it?

The scientists themselves cut the piece of the shroud the conservators didn't have all that control that you thinking
The Vatican had complete control of the process and nixed C14-dating for years.  It selected the number and names of laboratories involved and also required control samples:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiocarbon_14_dating_of_the_Shroud_of_Turin#History

https://www.shroud.com/nature.htm

Of course, we have plenty of people who disputed the results, which is the fallacy of consequences.  They're arguing in essence that the selection of the sample was so sloppy (nobody did a microscopic examination first?) that the results which do not support the believers should not be believed.  This is risible.

The Vatican should simply retire the shroud as a purported relic and hold it up as an example of faith being exploited for profit.  If it can get away with that without being totally hypocritical, that is.

Anonymous Mr. Rational July 18, 2016 10:29 PM  

Tom Kratman wrote:

That's at least the second time you've done something like that. Please stop. When the question is what someone believed, someone who was clearly very intelligent, it is not refuted by how others take it or how much it is read by others or what they are honored for.

Except in this case I used it to demonstrate that the guy was a heretic as well as a borderline nutcase.  Why should I believe crazy stuff because of Newton, when his was obviously not reliable even by the standards of the religious body behind his university?

But Newton rejected mainstream Anglicanism, so following geniuses suggests I should too.

Snidely Whiplash wrote:As you acknowledge above, the universe has a start, a beginning, prior to which it did not exist.
Yes.  Are you clueful enough to be able to calculate the entropy of a gas of a thermal distribution of photons at 2.7 K versus the original... at the volumes they occupied then and now?  It's an adiabatic expansion problem, you shouldn't have any difficulty with it if you actually know squat rather than simply repeating creatonut talking points.  So far you've avoided every quantitative question I've thrown at you, not even trying to bat at them.  The ump is calling them strikes.

Given that matter/energy in an isolated system can neither be created nor destroyed, and that net entropy must always increase,

how is it possible under the laws of physics for the universe to exist?

The universe expands, silly; other energy is converted to the stretching of space.  Mass-energy in the form of hydrogen is being converted to photons, neutrinos and black holes.  After 13.7 billion years at it, it appears that it is nearing or at the end of the last major stage of star formation.  Red dwarf stars will keep going for as much as a few trillion years but as hydrogen becomes too scarce to form clouds big enough to make stars we will see the end of supernovae, then the slow burning out of stars in inverse order of mass.  Oh, we may have some spectaculars like explosions from the mergers of neutron stars but they'll be few and far between.

tl;dr the universe as we know it now is a temporary condition; it just seems permanent because compared to it you're a mayfly and it's a bristlecone pine.  That condition is pretty much required given humanity arose through evolution, whereas a created universe could expire in less than the natural lifespan of things in it.

Anonymous Spartacus xxxxx July 19, 2016 12:39 AM  

Mr. Rational wrote:Tom Kratman wrote:

That's at least the second time you've done something like that. Please stop. When the question is what someone believed, someone who was clearly very intelligent, it is not refuted by how others take it or how much it is read by others or what they are honored for.



Yes.  Are you clueful enough to be able to calculate the entropy of a gas of a thermal distribution of photons at 2.7 K versus the original... at the volumes they occupied then and now?  It's an adiabatic expansion problem, you shouldn't have any difficulty with it if you actually know squat rather than simply repeating creatonut talking points.  So far you've avoided every quantitative question I've thrown at you, not even trying to bat at them.  The ump is calling them strikes.

The universe expands, silly; other energy is converted to the stretching of space.  Mass-energy in the form of hydrogen is being converted to photons, neutrinos and black holes.  After 13.7 billion years at it, it appears that it is nearing or at the end of the last major stage of star formation.  Red dwarf stars will keep going for as much as a few trillion years but as hydrogen becomes too scarce to form clouds big enough to make stars we will see the end of supernovae, then the slow burning out of stars in inverse order of mass.  Oh, we may have some spectaculars like explosions from the mergers of neutron stars but they'll be few and far between.



Mr. Rational, you were very politely ordered to stand down. Perhaps Kratman cannot calculate more microstates of a Maxwell-Boltzman distribution in six-dimensional phase space than thou. So what? His area of expertise is elsewhere, just as important, and due every bit as much respect. Rest assured, there are other readers here who can easily show where you err in the above areas of physics and cosmology, multiple counts, "silly". In your last quoted paragraph alone there are one thousand such errors of hubris and assumption. Now picture yourself in a foxhole with Kratman and the rest of us.

Anonymous Mr. Rational July 19, 2016 1:25 AM  

Spartacus xxxxx wrote:Mr. Rational, you were very politely ordered to stand down.
You do not understand.  I am a civilian.  Col. Kratman is not my superior officer; I am his.

Blogger Tom Kratman July 19, 2016 1:28 AM  

You don't have to positively believe anything, as I think any remotely careful reading of what I wrote would show. But you should not make a claim, tacitly that intelligence and atheism go hand in hand, then either back it up with spurious arguments or attempt to refute refutations with still more spurious arguments. Moreover, had you been paying the slightest attention, you would have noted that In said intelligence has nothing to do with it, hence you would not make silly statements such as that anyone is suggesting you must be anything because of Newton. All you really need to do because of Newton is understand that your initial point, atheist because intelligent, is just horseshit, plain and simple.

Blogger Tom Kratman July 19, 2016 1:29 AM  

Umm...no. I'm retired. Nobody is my superior officer anymore.

Blogger Tom Kratman July 19, 2016 1:36 AM  

Oh, and by the way, heretic and unbeliever are not the same thing.

Maybe you should go back to the dictionary and give a long hard look at any definitions of intelligent or intelligence you may find. You've been showing surprisingly little of it here, though I still hope you can do better, if you would only read with a little more care and think about it some.

Or do you imagine that, Newton perhaps having been a heretic somehow proves or even suggests that he was an atheist or even an agnostic. These things - heresy, atheism, and agnosticism - are not the same. Suggesting or claiming they are does you neither argumentative good nor personal credit.

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