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Wednesday, August 31, 2016

Churchianity and the feminized church

It's really rather remarkable, that as Christians lament declining attendance in their churches, and particularly, the growing absence of men of any age in them, they continue to double-down on the Churchian doctrine of the Holy Lady Parts. Rollo Tomassi observes that there is a material price to the structural and spiritual violations of 1 Corinthians 14:34-35, to say nothing of 1 Timothy 2:11–12 and 1 Timothy 3:11.
After almost six years of following the religious aspects of the Red Pill, I think it’s high time men acknowledge that modern Christian culture simply does not have men’s best interests as part of its doctrine anymore. Christianity, in particular, is by women, for women – if not directly executed by women, though even that is changing.

Church culture is now openly hostile towards any expression of conventional masculinity that doesn’t directly benefit women and actively conditions men to be serviceable, gender-loathing Betas. The feminist narrative of “toxic masculinity” has entirely replaced any semblance of what traditional masculinity or manhood once was to the church. Any hint of a masculinity not entirely beholden to a now feminine-primary purpose is not only feared, but shamed with feminine-interpreted aspersions of faith.

I recently read a study that our current generation is the least religious in history and I think as far as men are concerned much of that disdain for religion is attributable to a church culture that constantly and openly ridicules and debases any male-specific endeavors or anything characteristic of conventional masculinity. It’s no secret in today’s church franchisement that reaching out to, and retaining the interests of, men is at its most difficult.

Again, this is attributable to a generation of feminized men being raised into a church culture, and eventual church leadership, that has been taught to prioritize and identify with the feminine and reinforced with articles of faith now defined by the Feminine Imperative. The modern church has trouble reaching men because the church no longer has a grasp of what it means to be ‘men’.

To be clear, that’s not an indictment of the genuine faith itself, but rather a fairly measured observation of the way a feminine-primary church culture has shaped that faith. In the future, any man with a marginal capacity for critical thought will avoid the contemporary Christian church and religion for the obvious misandry it espouses; the only religious men you will find will be those raised into a life of religiously motivated Beta servitude – or those dragged to the feminine-directed church by wives who hold authoritative ‘headship’ in their relationships.

And even in what some consider to be pro-masculine or “macho” churches, we still find the Paper Alpha leaders preach from a mindset that defers wholesale to the feminine’s “Godly perfection” as they attempt to AMOG other male member to greater devotion to qualifying for, and identifying with, the feminine influence that pervades their church.
In this, as in so many things, observe that the consequence of following the lie is eventual destruction. This is what Paul means by knowing things by their fruits. If a church can throw out such clear Biblical direction in the interest of remaining in harmony with the current social or political consensus, it is only a matter of time before it will throw out any other instruction that makes anyone feel uncomfortable, and eventually, the Cross and the very concept of sin as well.

One need not be a theologian, or even a Christian, to see how this process has played out over the last 50 years.

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185 Comments:

Blogger freddy August 31, 2016 5:04 AM  

So, what is your position on January Ostean? Archetypal charlatan leading a legion to hell?

Blogger freddy August 31, 2016 5:05 AM  

Joel, douche da bag, ha

Blogger JACIII August 31, 2016 5:11 AM  

This is why your local church's men's groups are completely without interest. Cringeworthy is the idea of spending a Saturday morning breakfast with guys who haunt their wives' shadow the other six days of the week.

Anytime more than three men get together and there isn't a tobacco or hard drink involved, even peripherally, it's a horseshit pickle fest of virtue signaling man babies.

I'd rather take a beating.

Blogger VD August 31, 2016 5:12 AM  

Archetypal charlatan leading a legion to hell?

I don't pay enough attention to any current evangelical figure to have opinions on any of them. To date, every single one of them whose writings I have read, from John Piper to Rob Bell, reeks of Churchianity to some degree. It is little wonder that so many good Christian men want nothing to do with today's churches.

Blogger freddy August 31, 2016 5:13 AM  

Bulleit Rye, a few neets, on behalf of my Arminian friend Nate. And a big quaff to that Calvinist Finlandian. Well done to all and to crushing all nefarious invaders

Blogger freddy August 31, 2016 5:15 AM  

One dose of Joel and you know something reeks from you know where

Blogger Doom August 31, 2016 5:28 AM  

Sadly, it isn't just evangelical. I have better things to do and God damned well knows it. Hell, I can't even find a charity. Won't go through churches, they just redirect as .gov did with social security and all else. Bring in muslims with the money, on top of taking .gov and Soros and Koch brother money for it.

I do have my faith, it is good. Would love to have it rightly tended. Don't see that happening. Kill Vatican II, then purge the pope and his socialist earthly order, and those like that, and I'll begin thinking about it. Until then, let them eat estrogen, choke on it. I'll not have much to do with women, either. I have found that I need them less than they need me... on both counts. And time will prove it.

Anonymous Eric the Red August 31, 2016 5:33 AM  

Feminine... always seeking approval from those around them. So when it comes to God, they can forget all about Him as long as 'the community' bestows its seal of virtuousness.

A masculine Christianity knows God's approval and seeks none other.

Blogger residentMoron August 31, 2016 5:35 AM  

I posted this here once before, as a compliment to our host, but I re-post it as an example of something written by a Christian woman in the 1860s.

Note the complete absence of the writer herself in the text:

"The greatest want of the world is the want of men - men who will not be bought or sold; men who in their inmost souls are true and honest; men who do not fear to call sin by its right name; men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole; men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall."

Yes, things have changed in the church.

Blogger freddy August 31, 2016 5:37 AM  

Doom, is it possible that "lone rangers" unchecked could go rogue?

Blogger Lovekraft August 31, 2016 6:12 AM  

I heard an audio clip of someone talking to Jim Jones in his LA church. The interviewer asked "why aren't there crosses, places to pray?" with Jones replying "we don't need those anymore."

We all know how that turned out.

Blogger Lovekraft August 31, 2016 6:14 AM  

If the current and (to be amped-up) demonization of the white male/alt-right continues, it will result in us becoming even more focused, vigilant and strong. The lying left will only be able to force our submission because we know their entire ideology is corrupt. And when the enemy uses force against us, we know yet again we are on the right path.

Anonymous Alice De Goon August 31, 2016 6:18 AM  

When I think of the modern church, I think of Garfunkel and Oates' song "The Loophole" about a couple of good Catholic girls who follow the Bible (except the mean-sounding stuff they don't agree with) and who, in a bid to keep their boyfriends, decide to let them into the no go place. Because Sodomy is, like, invisible to God. It's not like he destroyed a couple of cities because of it or anything...

Remember girls, Jesus is your boyfriend! He wants you to slut it up in your youth so you'll be experienced for the one special man he has set aside and prepared for you. God only wants for you to be happy! If taking 7 cocks at once is the only way for you to feel good about yourself, then you can bet Jesus is sitting on a cloud, giving you the big Thumbs Up!

Blogger residentMoron August 31, 2016 6:18 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger residentMoron August 31, 2016 6:19 AM  

@Lovekraft

I believe the biblical term for what you describe is:

"tried in the fire"

Blogger Markku August 31, 2016 6:20 AM  

One of these days we need to create a map where unchurched Ilk will put their pins, and start organizing house Churches near Ilk hotspots. Remember, you only need two or three. Preferably three, because two can feel a little gay.

Anonymous MikeinTX August 31, 2016 6:24 AM  

The problem is in the concept of "church" being extended beyond the local body of believers. My pastor is a man, in the way that word has traditionally been understood, he doesn't AMOG, he genuinely listens and wants to learn from strong men in his sphere, he doesn't white knight or indulge women, he shows nascent alt-right tendencies. No man up lectures on Fathers' Day.

But leadership in any hierarchy inevitably gets converged, so my opinion is that men are going to be best served by local churches that are minimally influenced by a denominational hierarchy. The more local control, the better.

Why this is implicit when it comes to civil government but somehow not considered WRT spiritual government is a mystery.

Blogger Lazarus August 31, 2016 6:28 AM  

CHRISTIANITY VS. CHURCHIANITY. - A.A. Phelps, 1883

We are living in an age of shams and counterfeits. Satan seems to have abandoned the hope of crushing out the Christian Church by a process of undisguised hostility, and now seeks to destroy her efficiency by stealthily draining off her vitality, and robbing her of every supernatural element. He "transforms himself into an angel of light," and often assumes to be the special friend and guardian of the Church. Craftily he infuses his deadly virus and inculcates his plausible philosophy, until the moral perception is obscured, the conscience is distorted, and policy runs nearly the whole ecclesiastical machinery. Thus a popularized religion--which costs nothing and is worth nothing--is readily accepted, while the old religion of the cross is utterly discarded. The consequence is, that there is religion enough, and Churchianity enough, but a great famine for real Christianity. We meet with thousands all over the land who, if catechised in regard to their spiritual condition, reply with much self-assurance that they are members of such a Church. They assume that the Church is an ark of safety; and, once ensconced within her enclosures, all further anxiety ends. Let us try to unmask this dreadful delusion of the devil.

Blogger Laguna Beach Fogey August 31, 2016 6:33 AM  

There's always Wotan.

Blogger Doom August 31, 2016 6:44 AM  

MikeinTX,

While strong local input/control is good, has a place, it too will always fail. I believe it will fall sooner. What you suggest about local government is good for some things. But it will fail, for example, if the whole nation comes under attack. As for churches, it is the same. And what church is not under constant attack? How many letters were written to churches who were falling astray in the early days of the church, right there in books of the bible? There does need to be organization and authority beyond the local church. It's a matter of getting the right balance between local and main body, having limits on each, and about the faith itself. Local churches just as often go full on thievery to Jim Jones, or just fall apart over an issue that shouldn't be an issue, such as divorce or many other issues that shouldn't be all that confusing.

While the Church of Christ is in the process of being broken, even this pope can't make women priestesses or support abortion (publicly), or do a lot of things. He (he?) just can't. He doesn't actually have the authority. Only if the Church literally breaks can these things happen. Not perfect, but there are some limits, so far. He can't even (openly) support birth control. I bet that burns and itches. *grins*

Anonymous 5343 August 31, 2016 6:44 AM  

One of these days we need to create a map where unchurched Ilk will put their pins, and start organizing house Churches near Ilk hotspots. Remember, you only need two or three. Preferably three, because two can feel a little gay.

This is a great idea.

Blogger Markku August 31, 2016 6:47 AM  

Ilk could also inform on good, masculine Churches in which they go. If they turn out to pull any pussy-ass crap, we'll track the informant down and make him run half-marathon in pink tutu.

Blogger weka August 31, 2016 6:48 AM  

@19. No, there ain't Wotan. If you know your Anglo Saxon literature, you would know that.

There are plenty of believers who turn up to worship God and then tell the rest of the programmed feminine church to circle round the drain. It's useful to consider that the rich church in Revelations was the one called lukewarm and spat out.

@Marrku (lost number). Pins on the map don't work well with OPSEC. Two or three, agreed: and that is manageable.

Blogger Doom August 31, 2016 6:48 AM  

Markku,

No... too tempting for some. *cough*

Blogger Markku August 31, 2016 6:49 AM  

No, only Vox would see all pins. The person putting his on the map wouldn't see anyone else. When Vox sees a cluster of three, then, activate protocol.

Blogger Timmy3 August 31, 2016 6:55 AM  

Do I know why church attendance declined? I have no idea, but blaming it on male bashing and the feminized church is not looking at other influences. There has never been a struggle more difficult than today in winning and retaining converts. Today we have a President that no longer openly visits church services. He sets the tone for the country. No traditional church advocates for any presidential candidate for this line is broken with Clinton or Trump. The secularism of the country is on the march.

Blogger Doom August 31, 2016 6:56 AM  

Oh, sure. And perhaps we could get Vox to set up transportation, reading/study material, and meeting places? You are mighty generous with Vox's elbow grease, Markku. Though... someone trusted could be given such a task. True. Had to laugh. Especially imagining Vox reading your post. Can only imagine the expression, but... was fun.

OpenID basementhomebrewer August 31, 2016 6:57 AM  

This is something I have struggled with over the past decade and a half. I grew up in a church that was not churchian but was infiltrated when I was a young teenager. The pastor quit as a result and luckily he was replaced with a non churchian but he wasn't as strong. I left for college before the final nails were put in the coffin there.

When I got to college I couldn't find any churches I liked at all. I wasn't quite sure why other than they all felt wrong and misguided. I eventually gave up trying. Since then, every time I have moved I spend 2-3 months looking for a church but give up when they all turn out to be the same churchian style.

Blogger Markku August 31, 2016 6:59 AM  

Timmy, stop with the defeatism. I'm a Finn, I know how this is done. We've had five major revivals here, and a number of minor ones. It almost always starts with one man who gets tired of the dead church in his country, and is willing to invest himself in changing it.

Blogger Markku August 31, 2016 7:04 AM  

Doom, this is fundamentally an issue of trust. Readers of the blog trust Vox, and no-one else, with that information. None of it would have to be actively managed by him, as long as people know that he is the ultimate custodian of the information.

Blogger Lazarus August 31, 2016 7:05 AM  

Timmy3 wrote:Do I know why church attendance declined? I have no idea,

Should have stopped there.

Blogger Markku August 31, 2016 7:06 AM  

I'm not saying we do this, but I _am_ saying that chances of anything improving without a revival, according to the historical template of revivals, are extremely close to zero.

Blogger Markku August 31, 2016 7:10 AM  

Revivals happen when five million people say "somebody needs to do something about this" and one says "I need to do something about this".

Blogger Josh August 31, 2016 7:12 AM  

The map doesn't even have to have your address or town, just the county and state would be sufficient.

Blogger Markku August 31, 2016 7:15 AM  

And Doom, it may look like I'm overly generous with someone else's time, but you need to realize that I'll go home in an hour or two, and might easily find a message that says "ok, make the map".

Blogger Markku August 31, 2016 7:17 AM  

You want NATE to be in control of the communications?

No, you don't.

Blogger postmodern redneck August 31, 2016 7:17 AM  

I am a lifelong Christian, now 66 years old. There's been a lot of press about the "Nones." There has been a limited amount about the "Dones." I have been one for some years now. There is a study of this by two sociologists who happen to be Christians: https://www.group.com/product/9781470725921-church-refugees-soft-cover.do They estimate about 30 million Dones in the US. Many of them are people who were in leadership in their congregations. We are not Lone Rangers, at least any more than we can help. We get together with others of like mind as we find them. But we are through with the organized church. Over time, any organization drifts toward being run for the benefit of the staff rather than the clientele (This applies not just to churches, but to anything--gov't agencies, large corporations like GM, universities, school districts, labor unions...on and on).

Anonymous Wilbur Hassenfus August 31, 2016 7:18 AM  

I knew an evangelical girl who took it up the tailpipe too preserve her virginity. No lie. I nearly fell off the floor.

Anonymous the management August 31, 2016 7:24 AM  

One of the marks of the feminized church is the central focus on "youth ministry" or "children's ministry". It's as though Jesus didn't just let the little children come to Him (along with the adults), but ran a really fun daycare and vacation bible school.

Blogger VD August 31, 2016 7:28 AM  

No need to wait, Markku. OK, make the map. Depending on opsec, we might even make it an Android app.

Blogger Markku August 31, 2016 7:29 AM  

I was afraid of that. But, this is by far the number one problem in the entire world right now. And, I know where to go for assistance.

Blogger VD August 31, 2016 7:29 AM  

All that needs to be sent is closest town, state, and max distance willing to travel on a weekly basis.

Blogger VD August 31, 2016 7:30 AM  

But first, finish the store dox, if they aren't finished already. That takes priority.

Blogger Markku August 31, 2016 7:31 AM  

Yep, this problem has been waiting for a solution for decades. It can wait for a few weeks more.

Anonymous Broken Arrow August 31, 2016 7:32 AM  

Without listening to a single sermon all you have to do is listen to the music in any church and that's going to tell you most of what you need to know. If every song is a weepy love song for Jesus then the odds of good preaching and even proper administration of the sacraments is close to zero.

Blogger Markku August 31, 2016 7:32 AM  

I'm pretty sure that now that the idea is out there, feedback will come to me. I won't have to go to it.

Blogger John rockwell August 31, 2016 7:32 AM  

@Wilbur Hassenfus

And some who take it up the tailpipe who have their own intestines fall out.

Yeah using the opening that is designed for expelling human waste for sex is such a good idea(sarc)

Anonymous Samson J. August 31, 2016 7:35 AM  

It's pretty obvious that Rollo is seeing what he wants to see in order to avoid the conversion that is calling to him. He uses blanket statements - "all" churches, etc. - that just aren't true.

Blogger Wrangler August 31, 2016 7:40 AM  

Big fight in the SBC over Calvinism vs Traditionalism. Calvinist now hold most of the key positions and claim criticisms of them are just rebels trying to divide the body of Christ, "we need unity". We have compromised our truth for an illusive unity. As Dalrock said, "the compromise of today is the starting point of negotiations tomorrow". We need to defund the seminaries. Want to be a preacher, apprentice under a good Godly preacher and don't waste $ on feminized seminaries.

Blogger clk August 31, 2016 7:42 AM  

I don't know if I would attribute all the decline to the "feminization" of Christianity (and I think that's the wrong made up word but I lack a better one) or whether a lack of attendance led to this "feminization." Or whether its just the reflection of the greater society.

I cant speak to the protestant churches but in the RCC I think we are viewing history myopically if we think that the social positions/approaches have been constant through out our history. While I could argue that the basic tenants of the religion are the same since Peter, the approaches to implementing those have always changed with society (sometimes lagging by 1000's of years in the case of the RCC :) ) -- it cant be helped because the church is run by people.

And to some extent, I don't really mind that there might be multitude of differences in approaches to Christianity, some which are quite liberal and not for me or you but its just another way that God opens a door for people to walk in.


If we are honest with ourselves ... its not really that different than what happened during the protestant reformation "heresy" ... we can argue why that occurred but I have always viewed it as the hand of God opening a door and providing a path for more people to know him... not a bad thing...

If there was a internet blog back then I am sure there would have been a bunch of equivalent "ilk" bemoaning the reductions in flogging and burning at the stake like the good old days... :)




Blogger RobertDWood August 31, 2016 7:42 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger GeuxBacon August 31, 2016 7:47 AM  

The "Reformed" ideology, based on Calvinism, may be our salvation (no pun intended) for the feminization of Christianity.

Blogger VD August 31, 2016 7:49 AM  

I don't know if I would attribute all the decline to the "feminization" of Christianity (and I think that's the wrong made up word but I lack a better one) or whether a lack of attendance led to this "feminization." Or whether its just the reflection of the greater society.

Stow it, cucky. The "I don't know if...." line of attempted criticism is nothing more than a meandering, nonsensical, and usually ignorant expression of feelbad.

Blogger EscapeVelocity August 31, 2016 7:49 AM  

Vatican II was a disaster.

Evangelicals are gaining where the traditional Churches have failed. Anglican/Episcopal, Presbetyrian, Catholic.

Blogger Phillip George August 31, 2016 7:51 AM  

when churches had bodies buried inside them a certain sobriety ensued. Now all the coffins are in FEMA camps.

No pockets in a shroud, no atheists in a Fox hole. Perhaps every new church needs a few bodies buried prominently.

The sanitization of death. Even ISIS struggle to get their heads on pikes propaganda onto the front pages. Perhaps get the next hundred Syriac church christians killed could donate a pellet load of corpses to Hillsong to set up tombs of the unknown Christian. Cool.

safe spaces for snow flakes.

Blogger postmodern redneck August 31, 2016 7:52 AM  

One thing to be careful about: From my study of history, the useful life of any Christian "movement" seems to be 20-40 years. And the sooner they get "organized" the sooner they stop moving. They don't disappear; they morph from being an active "movement" to being a monument to something God did in the past. (And now the landscape is littered with Lutheran monuments, Methodist monuments, Baptist monuments, etc.) I do think the Dones are going to be harder to organize than most, because so many have rejected the existing organizations. But I have heard there are some people trying it.

Blogger Markku August 31, 2016 7:54 AM  

We get three people to take the communion together, and we've already accomplished something. So, I'm not too worried about 20-40 years.

Blogger Dave August 31, 2016 7:55 AM  

Today we have a President that no longer openly visits church services. He sets the tone.

Remember all the times we saw Bill and Hillary on TV entering or leaving a church and Bill was holding that humongous bible. Man, did they set the tone.

Blogger RobertDWood August 31, 2016 7:59 AM  

In the us you could use zip code of residence, distance of travel,and willingness to host/facilitate. That would retain opsec while sorting out the Ilk.

Blogger Orville August 31, 2016 7:59 AM  

Markku, if you go the app route, maybe a set of radio buttons such as the following:
* Catholic
* Non-Catholic
* Calvinist
* Arminian
* Ok with any of the above
State, County, Max Miles

I think your idea is great! I have searched in vain for many years. Listening to old recorded messages from days gone by is no substitute for fellowship with another like minded man.

Best Tools For Men

Blogger Markku August 31, 2016 8:00 AM  

I'm not touching the Catholic side with a ten foot pole. But, I'm not preventing a Catholic from taking the idea and running with it either.

Anonymous SugarPi August 31, 2016 8:00 AM  

It's heartening to read your menfolk comments. Our family home churches. After a move a few years ago, we couldn't find a church to join in the small, rural community near us. The only one we would consider has now gotten on the emerging church bus.

The homeschool community is so feminized, we're having problems there too. Ditto the hybrid school my grandsons now attend.

These churchians are all (okay not ALL) raising crotch-kicking, girl-powered harpies. The going thing in these SJW-led "churches" is to guilt members into adopting a passel of minority or foreign chillins so that mommie dearest is a saint above reproach, though frazzled to the point that natural children are thrown into public school when their behavior becomes a problem in the Christian environment.

The girls horn in on any game the boys are playing, spew their venom, then call boys rude if they respond in kind. I almost wish this wasn't a "Christian" school so I could give my grandsons their Papa's Army Airborne-inspired comebacks from yesteryear, before the see-you-next-Tuesday crowd invaded there too.
All hail the patriarchy!!

Blogger Phillip George August 31, 2016 8:02 AM  

https://www.ordo-militaris.us/

gird up thy loins. Blessed be the peace makers. Everyone declaring war on you should be given time to surrender.

Respect their declaration of war. Just respect it.

Blogger Dave August 31, 2016 8:05 AM  

The "I don't know if...." line of attempted criticism

We need "the right made up word" for that but I lack one.

Blogger Orville August 31, 2016 8:06 AM  

@61 I'm not touching the Catholic side with a ten foot pole. But, I'm not preventing a Catholic from taking the idea and running with it either.

I wouldn't either, but there are a fair number of Catholics here, and I'm going by the "any to the right" of me thinking. Plus, if they've left the Pope, they may leave off other things too. I don't want to derail this into yet another Catholic vs Protestant whine fest.

Blogger Markku August 31, 2016 8:07 AM  

It's probably not malicious though. I've felt defeated, and I've talked like that. That's just how it goes. But we don't need it here.

Blogger Doom August 31, 2016 8:15 AM  

Markku,

Mark me down as learned. And, yet, I still had fun with my version of events.

Let me know when things are set up. I will gladly pray with any man still having true faith. Three is great. A dozen or more would be even better. Just for a Christian outlet. 'Tis good. Not sure that would happen here, but only one way to find out innit.

Anonymous Moses Apostaticus August 31, 2016 8:21 AM  

Art of Manliness did a great series on this recently: http://www.artofmanliness.com/2016/08/08/is-christianity-an-inherently-feminine-religion/. Seems to be something many men are thinking.

Have you come across Todd White Vox? He's solid in the word and emphasises the kingship rather than the lovely nicey niceness of Jesus.

Blogger Josh August 31, 2016 8:26 AM  

It's pretty obvious that Rollo is seeing what he wants to see in order to avoid the conversion that is calling to him.

Rollo is a Christian

Blogger LonestarWhacko August 31, 2016 8:45 AM  

Those who read their Bible are aware that the warnings about apostasy are very pointed. Feminised Churchianity? It's outright apostasy. And from those things turn away....as we are warned.

Fellow believers, not followers. As for working up small groups.....consider what's happening in China.

Headline on Drudge says Homeland Security is going to oversee the election. That means Clinton wins. Original Christianity was hated and hounded as haters of mankind.

The operating principles from back then are still relevant. Paul emphasized accurate knowledge. You see, Armageddon is coming.....as those who actually believe understand it.

The point is this.....as Jesus said....only a few would be saved.....as thru fire. Churchianity is the easy way of comfortable apostasy.

The Bible is God's word. It is THE standard for existence. Demons are walking about.

Anonymous johnc August 31, 2016 8:47 AM  

This is rooted in a very pernicious spiritual error that has an attachment to sentimentality. Somebody mentioned the horrendously saccharine music found in many churches today. And look how it has even effected doctrine, with Christians (!) now supporting the most ridiculous sins under the umbrella of, "If it makes somebody feel good about him / her / itself, then it must be what God wants! God is love!"

To paraphrase Ann Barnhardt a bit, Christians today think God is the Big Golden Retriever in the Sky, always eager to slobber all over you in tail-wagging over-exuberance regardless of your state or condition. Somebody could be spiritually killing himself with spiritual cancer and we're supposed to believe that, as long as you're happy, God is doing an Irish jig about it all.

It boils over when we take Christ off the Cross, as seeing Christ crucified is unpleasant to us. (Does it remind us of our sin?) When you separate Christ and His Cross, you know you're on the path towards a weak, limp-wristed form of Christianity.

In the 1950s during the Cold War this sentimentality was seen by some as a major weakness in the West:

"The Western post-Christian civilization has picked up the Christ without His Cross. But a Christ without a sacrifice that reconciles the world to God is a cheap, feminized, colourless, itinerant preacher who deserves to be popular for His great Sermon on the Mount, but also merits unpopularity for what He said about His Divinity on the one hand, and divorce, judgment, and hell on the other. This sentimental Christ is patched together with a thousand commonplaces, sustained sometimes by academic etymologists who cannot see the Word for the letters, or distorted beyond personal recognition by a dogmatic principle that anything which is Divine must necessarily be a myth. Without His Cross, He becomes nothing more than a sultry precursor of democracy or a humanitarian who taught brotherhood without tears." -- Bishop Sheen

Anonymous paradox August 31, 2016 9:13 AM  

Laguna Beach Fogey
There's always Wotan



Heineken?! F**k that sh*t!

Blogger Josh August 31, 2016 9:26 AM  

There's always Wotan

Not today Satan

Blogger Anonymous-9 August 31, 2016 9:34 AM  

Vox,
Can you please tell us the version of the Bible you rely upon?

Anonymous farmer August 31, 2016 9:39 AM  

The quickest way to smoke out churchians in a new group is for the women to wear the Christian covering as all did until first wave feminism hit. The churchiams all instinctially dispise it. But just remember the seeds of the feminist rebellian were laid by the early church fathers.

Don't put new wine in old wineskins, 2 or 3 is the way to go.

Antiseminary anti professional pastor is the way to go, that was a big part of our fall.

Blogger Escoffier August 31, 2016 9:49 AM  

Markku wrote:One of these days we need to create a map where unchurched Ilk will put their pins, and start organizing house Churches near Ilk hotspots. Remember, you only need two or three. Preferably three, because two can feel a little gay.

I'm in.

Blogger VD August 31, 2016 9:50 AM  

Can you please tell us the version of the Bible you rely upon?

In English, I usually use the NIV. I often prefer the King James for quotations, though, due to the feel of the language. I'm not hard-core about any one translation, though. In Italian, I use the CEI, or Conferenza Episcopale Italiana 1974.

Being multi-lingual, I'm more aware than most of the impossibility of flawless translation from one language to another, much less from Divine to Man.

Anonymous Drose August 31, 2016 9:51 AM  

"One of these days we need to create a map where unchurched Ilk will put their pins, and start organizing house Churches near Ilk hotspots. Remember, you only need two or three. Preferably three, because two can feel a little gay."

If it helps, I a forming a red pill focused Christian Men's group in the Metro Detroit area.

Blogger Joe Doakes August 31, 2016 9:53 AM  

Vox once wrote about coaching soccer teams, explaining the difference in sexes: women need group encouragement, men need individual motivation. Men need a set task to accomplish.

Women can listen to "Jesus loves us all" and be perfectly content.

Men need to hear "Jesus saw you commit that sin and it puts you smack at the top of His Shit List so you better get right with Him THIS INSTANT or He will kick your ass for all eternity."

Men don't go to church because there's nothing in it for them. No confession. No forgiveness. No penance. No salvation.

Speaking of a set task, how about a new Crusade?

Blogger Abyssus Invocat August 31, 2016 9:55 AM  

I hope there will be a Catholic version. If so, put a pin in Singapore.

Blogger Abyssus Invocat August 31, 2016 9:56 AM  

Wherever two or three of you are gathered in my name...

Blogger Escoffier August 31, 2016 9:56 AM  

postmodern redneck wrote:One thing to be careful about: From my study of history, the useful life of any Christian "movement" seems to be 20-40 years. And the sooner they get "organized" the sooner they stop moving. They don't disappear; they morph from being an active "movement" to being a monument to something God did in the past. (And now the landscape is littered with Lutheran monuments, Methodist monuments, Baptist monuments, etc.) I do think the Dones are going to be harder to organize than most, because so many have rejected the existing organizations. But I have heard there are some people trying it.

20-40 years from now isn't our responsibility. Today is.

Blogger Bard August 31, 2016 9:57 AM  

ILK, do it yourself and stop complaining. I took the lead in home study after at least 10 families bitched about wanting someone to step up. They are all seeking real truth and are fed up with the latest colon cleanse bs as am I. I quit going to the old group and told them they were leading the youth to a life of failure. Red pill Christianity. You don't like it, I Don't care.

Blogger Bard August 31, 2016 10:00 AM  

#christiangate (is narrow). I am the leader and so are you.

Blogger Bard August 31, 2016 10:01 AM  

Take it back like everything else

Anonymous LES August 31, 2016 10:03 AM  

Western Man eschews Jefferson's natural aristocracy and hierarchy and favors individualism and self-sufficiency. However, men will follow a true natural leader who is not a Barney Fife pulling rank.

Blogger Bard August 31, 2016 10:04 AM  

Take it back like everything else

Blogger Bard August 31, 2016 10:07 AM  

#christiangate (is narrow). I am the leader and so are you.

Blogger Nate August 31, 2016 10:10 AM  

I would suggest that this need not even replace church for you. Gather and create your ilk men's bible group.

For example... I have a group of like minded folk that get together for a little thing I call Theology on Tap.

in another church that I know of... about 40 men get together every wednesday at 5am for a bible study that is now only referred to as Fight Club.

so I would encourage all to participate... not just those who have no good options for church homes.

Blogger Nate August 31, 2016 10:12 AM  

"20-40 years from now isn't our responsibility. Today is."

Roll Tide.

Blogger jamsco August 31, 2016 10:13 AM  

VD: "To date, every single one of them whose writings I have read, from John Piper to Rob Bell, reeks of Churchianity to some degree."

How about a more simple definition of Churchianity: Anyone claiming to be Christian who expresses opinions anywhere to the left of the principles of Vox Day, as determined by Vox Day.

So a pastor might allow only male pastors and elders, encourage all of his members to be actively pro-life, decry same-sex marriage from the pulpit, and exclusively and exhortatively preach the Bible, Repentance and the Gospel, but if he says that interracial marriage is okay, well then the declaration is made:

Churchian.

Blogger SemiSpook37 August 31, 2016 10:13 AM  

Orville wrote:I wouldn't either, but there are a fair number of Catholics here, and I'm going by the "any to the right" of me thinking. Plus, if they've left the Pope, they may leave off other things too. I don't want to derail this into yet another Catholic vs Protestant whine fest.

One of the Catholics here. My $0.02:

As some people have mentioned up-thread, Vatican II needs to be done away with. The intended ambiguity in many of the documents that proceeded from the council have given the Modernists coverage to wreak havoc on the Church, especially in cases where they invoke the "Spirit of Vatican II" to justify their actions. It's all political bullshit. And like similar political bullshit from the 1960s, the entire world is the worse for it.

Early in my marriage, my wife (who, oddly enough, has had way much more exposure to Catholic instruction than I ever did) and I got into a discussion about our children (we only have daughters) and their participation with regards to the Faith. At the time, my wife was all for letting my daughters become acolytes (altar servers) so that they could "experience" what it was like in the sanctuary. Me, having become aware of actual Catholic tradition about 6 months before I met my wife, took the obvious stance that her idea wasn't a great one, particularly due to the fact, and while it "sounds" chauvenist to those hard core Modernists and feminists alike, that the sanctuary is not a place for women...ever.

I said this in the context, oddly enough brought up by my wife when we were first dating, that the sanctuary is the only thing that men have that makes them men (specifically, spiritual growth), while women have their ability to gestate and produce life (physical growth). She has since come around to agree with me on this, especially with regards to the current situation within the Church on a number of fronts.

I think that's a major contributor to the problem at large, where it appears the focus on this bastardized concept of "equality" is more of a infantile rejection of a truly complimentary system, which is what God intended. It doesn't reject the idea that women, individually or as a whole, can make an impact with regards to the Faith; it just means their contributions have effects that DIFFER SIGNIFICANTLY from what men can do.

Blogger Markku August 31, 2016 10:19 AM  

Healer, heal thy butthurt. He said "to some degree".

Blogger jamsco August 31, 2016 10:20 AM  

He also said "reeks". And I never said I was a healer.

Blogger Nate August 31, 2016 10:21 AM  

'How about a more simple definition of Churchianity: Anyone claiming to be Christian who expresses opinions anywhere to the left of the principles of Vox Day, as determined by Vox Day.'

its snarky and bitchy sounding but you're actually nibbling around the edges of a legitimate problem.

That problem is one that has plagued Christianity since the begining. Where to draw lines. Everyone laments schism... but every time someone disagrees... schism happens.

At some point we're going to have to suck it up and accept that the church is not perfect. it is made up of men who are fallen and broken. No church is perfect. Thus I say, the perfect church is the church that needs you.

Blogger Markku August 31, 2016 10:22 AM  

Yes, he did. But your conclusion doesn't follow. Now, he may THINK it about a certain someone we wouldn't like him to think it about. But he didn't actually SAY it.

Blogger jamsco August 31, 2016 10:23 AM  

Good points, Nate.

Anonymous TLM August 31, 2016 10:24 AM  

Markku- Please run with the app, it's needed. I stopped attending 2 years ago. Just couldn't stomach the false teaching, sugar coated bubble gum pop worship music, and then they hired a musician that wears moon boots with skinny jeans every week. It's so gay.

PM Redneck- Your comment was interesting. Most of the men I know that have dropped out like myself were once teachers or men that served in other leadership type positions.

Blogger jamsco August 31, 2016 10:25 AM  

Markku, You're saying that Vox didn't actually say that Piper is a churchian? Fair enough.

Blogger Arthur Isaac August 31, 2016 10:26 AM  

A careful reading of the letters to the Churches in Revelation shows that the 5 Churches that receive a rebuke have woman problems.

Blogger Josh August 31, 2016 10:27 AM  

At some point we're going to have to suck it up and accept that the church is not perfect. it is made up of men who are fallen and broken. No church is perfect. Thus I say, the perfect church is the church that needs you.

Amen. Maybe that church in town that you're walking out of is the one God wants you to transform.

Blogger Markku August 31, 2016 10:29 AM  

Yes, that is what I'm saying. Now, of course, he didn't say the opposite either. But until he does, the conclusion doesn't follow.

Blogger Nate August 31, 2016 10:30 AM  

"Markku, You're saying that Vox didn't actually say that Piper is a churchian? Fair enough."

He's not churchian.

He's just a douchebag that calls God evil.

Blogger Nate August 31, 2016 10:32 AM  

"Amen. Maybe that church in town that you're walking out of is the one God wants you to transform."

Its like good mean keep this list of things that will make them leave. if X... I am out.

how about if X... I stay and say No. X is wrong. Over and Over and Over.

You know. Like the liberals did. The liberals who have tons of scalps on the wall should add.

Blogger jamsco August 31, 2016 10:33 AM  

Still, that's the opinion I'm reading from Vox - a pastor (or church) who I don't agree on the issue of race is false Christianity.

Blogger jamsco August 31, 2016 10:34 AM  

"... calls God evil."

And you call him weak. But that's OT, I suppose.

Blogger Murray August 31, 2016 10:36 AM  

One major problem is that we no longer know what masculinity is supposed to look like. Just as FTM trannies and "genderqueer" women think that masculinity is all about going "Hurr, hurr" and hulking about with a scowl on your face, Christian leaders think that the best way to reach men is with sportsball coach pep talks and embarrassing imitations of military jargon.

For a truly masculine style of worship, look at the Traditional Latin Mass or the Orthodox liturgy. These can be hard slogs for the uninitiated (the Orthodox liturgy clocks in at some 3 hours!): they're celebrated in a foreign language, there's very little "audience participation", the music is like nothing you hear in the outside world, and much of the priest's celebration is inaudible to the congregation. But paradoxically, these elements strike a deep chord in the masculine psyche. The worship isn't about you, you're not there to celebrate (or berate) the Wonderful Us, it's directed at God, and God alone. A man attending a traditional liturgy of one of the ancient churches feels himself caught up in a cause--and a fight--much bigger than himself. He is conscripted into the army of God, battling principalities and powers under the leadership of the saints and the angels. That's a truly masculine form of worship.

Blogger Nate August 31, 2016 10:39 AM  

"And you call him weak. But that's OT, I suppose."

SCHISM!!!!

Blogger SemiSpook37 August 31, 2016 10:43 AM  

@106

Thank you. Someone else that gets it. And this is coming from someone whose mother had to agree to raise her children in the Latin Rite instead of the Ruthenian Rite (which she was raised in), which still faces ad orientum in line with the Divine Liturgies of St. James and St. John Chrysostum.

Truth be told, I got more out of those Divine Liturgies (even if they were in the vernacular) than I ever did out of a Pauline Mass. Just saying.

Anonymous johnc August 31, 2016 10:48 AM  

+1 for the TLM. You can't go to a Novus Ordo Mass -- your balls will fall off.

And don't anyone talk about "but but but it's a 45-minute drive!". We're not going to save Western Civilization if we can't even sacrifice a 45 minute drive on a day that should be exclusively reserved for God anyway.

Blogger CM August 31, 2016 10:54 AM  

He is conscripted into the army of God, battling principalities and powers under the leadership of the saints and the angels. That's a truly masculine form of worship.

No participation? Even in Holy Communion response liturgy (The Lord be with you/And also with you)?

I guess everything I think about that I think men would like is gimmicky. My husband does not participate, but absorbs. I want to ask questions and sort things out til I'm satisfied. He just listens and tells me if he liked it or not after.

But he also dislikes going... i always thought his lack of participation and his unmotivation to attend were because its not important to him.

Blogger Hrodgar August 31, 2016 10:55 AM  

Re: Murray 10:36am

It is interesting to note that Catholicism, while not completely immune to the Romantic reaction against Rationalism and its accompanying disproportional exaltation of female piety, didn't have too much trouble with that until after the liturgical innovations of the 60's and 70's. While there were certainliy exceptions, as late as 1913 Robert Hugh Benson was counting 2 to 1 ratios of men to women in at least some Catholic services in England, and claims that similar tendencies existed in Italy and France.

Joseph Shaw, chairman of the Latin Mass Society of England, has some worthwhile analyses of this and related subjects. These posts begin a pair of series which represent, in my opinion, his best work on the subject:
http://www.lmschairman.org/2014/12/podles-on-masculinity-and-church-pat-1.html
http://www.lmschairman.org/2016/08/was-religion-feminised-in-19th-century.html

Anonymous patrick kelly August 31, 2016 11:02 AM  

I'm not going to claim the EOC is completely immune from this, but we do seem to be highly inoculated and structurally resistant.

Come witness a liturgy or vesper service at an active, growing EOC and you will likely find men, men who shoot, do martial arts, home-school, self-employed. And beards, lots of beards, manly beards, not neck-beards. Yes, you will also find other types, a diverse group of political leanings and culture, but any attempt to bend the community to emphasize or focus on those differences are blown away like chaff in the wind.

Most of our services are predominantly in English, and led by men. Priests, deacons, readers, chanters, men because that's who is permitted. Women may participate alongside and support the leading men. Choir directors are a notable exception, but they are also under the authority of men.

There are still little ethnic enclaves but they appear to be fading and diminishing, replaced by a newer generation of American converts. The journey to the EOC from any of the more popular American traditions is a painful, difficult journey, not usually taken for frivolous or impulsive reasons. You don't just show up and say "sign me up".

I've witnessed some attempts at entry-ism, but they run into the ancient brick wall of the patriarchy and centuries of experience with the winds and waves of persecution, infiltration, and other diversions. Most of the SJW types leave, if not run away, or resign themselves to crying against the wind.

My opinion. The people aren't perfect, they don't have to be, we are surrounded by the great cloud of witnesses, upon very thick, hard, strong weather worn rock.

Anonymous 5343 August 31, 2016 11:03 AM  

"[Piper] calls God evil."

And you call him weak.


Straw man. And yeah, OT.

Blogger Murray August 31, 2016 11:03 AM  

@110 I said "very little" participation, not no participation. Compared to the modern (Pauline/Novus Ordo) liturgy, in which the congregation is ceaselessly doing stuff In order to feel included, the traditional liturgies are festivals of silence.

@111 Benson and Shaw are both excellent. I'll have to re-read those posts. Thanks.

Blogger Chiva August 31, 2016 11:04 AM  

how about if X... I stay and say No. X is wrong. Over and Over and Over.

And keep saying it even when asked to leave the church. You may not change the hearts/minds of the leadership, but the laity hear what you say.

The truth will out.

Blogger jamsco August 31, 2016 11:05 AM  

Straw Men.

Blogger Nate August 31, 2016 11:11 AM  

"And keep saying it even when asked to leave the church. You may not change the hearts/minds of the leadership, but the laity hear what you say. "

yup.

Example: I noted the church I was attending offered no accountability. I spoke to the minister about it and we decided it was time to institute some. So we worked at it. and we recieved lots of push back.

And yes.. the minister actually ended up getting moved to another church. But the new minister that came picked up where he left off. And just this week... two members were told not to come back to an intense discipleship class because they had missed to many classes. (they had been warned and knew they were expected to attend regularly.)

They were butthurt. But the class appreciated it.

Blogger Markku August 31, 2016 11:15 AM  

This time I have no patience for you, Mark Call. I will delete you with extreme prejudice.

Blogger jamsco August 31, 2016 11:15 AM  

Good for your church, Nate. Accountability is key in a church.

Blogger Nate August 31, 2016 11:16 AM  

Mark Call

c'mon man. don't derail this.

Blogger Nate August 31, 2016 11:17 AM  

"Good for your church, Nate. Accountability is key in a church."

it is.

And its something I hope the home churches created from all this institute as well.

Blogger Doom August 31, 2016 11:30 AM  

Arthur Isaac,

"A careful reading of the letters to the Churches in Revelation shows that the 5 Churches that receive a rebuke have woman problems."

Well, as things stand, I'm in good stead then. Now, schism happens, or so I've heard. But if a she joins me, it won't be the other way around. Bad birds tend to flock off, quickly.

Blogger Nate August 31, 2016 11:37 AM  

"A careful reading of the letters to the Churches in Revelation shows that the 5 Churches that receive a rebuke have woman problems."

it is more than a little disengenuous to label those all "woman problems".

some obviously are. others obviously are not.

Blogger Servant August 31, 2016 11:45 AM  

Paul outlines what to do with an apostate in corinthians. At some point, If you can't kick them out, seems like you should leave.

Blogger Mad Dyeda Jørgen August 31, 2016 11:59 AM  

@52

"The "Reformed" ideology, based on Calvinism, may be our salvation...for the feminization of Christianity."

Five-point Supralasarian Calvinism is straight up redpill Christianity. The theological rigor it demands alone would solve a host of problems in the church, not just our pathetic feminization.

I realize that hardassed devotion to Unconditional Election is not for everybody. I'm sympathetic, I really am. Think of Calvinists as the Marines. Not everybody has to be as tough as the Marines, but everyone benefits from their service. Just make sure we get plenty of rum when there's no war on, or we'll fight amongst ourselves.

Anonymous Mark Call August 31, 2016 12:19 PM  

Nate - If a thread entitled "Churchianity and the feminized church" that even includes a request for an app detailing LOCATIONS of fellowships that are NOT feminized can be "derailed" by comments DIRECTLY FROM SCRIPTURE about precisely WHY that happened, and continues --

then I'm clearly the wrong place.

Too "feminized", arguably. But I'm done wasting my time.

Blogger RobertDWood August 31, 2016 12:23 PM  

Solid in the word is not the descriptor to use.

Blogger Mike Q. August 31, 2016 12:28 PM  

I like seeing these discussions about Christianity/Churchianity on the manosphere - these blogs are what opened up my own eyes to the abuses of men in the church ("marry the slut" and "man up" being common phrases in the last church I went to). I may not be able to save the converged churches but what would you suggest be done as someone who aspires to the office of overseer or to deacon? I'm not content with talk being the end of the matter. The knowledge is useful but I want to do something about it - the letters in Revelation talk about overcoming and conquering, and as a Christian I don't think I get a pass for watching it burn and die. The solutions are not all that simple either...

Anonymous User August 31, 2016 12:29 PM  

The RCC is far less cucked than many people assume. There is definitely a pretty cucky social justice wing, but there is much to learn from an organization that has endured for thousands of years. Priestly celibacy and the male requirement are both responses to sociosexual reality. The catholic Q&A show on the radio yesterday had a priest bring up the great commission when asked about the threat mohammedism represents. He said unequivocally God wants us to convert them all.

I'm not a huge fan of this pope as he is portrayed in the lügenpresse, but so what? Even if he's every bit as bad as they say he's nowhere near the worst pope ever.

Blogger RobertDWood August 31, 2016 12:34 PM  

Mmm. The same, jew and greek, yet marriage is forbidden? Go spew your idiotic thoughts somewhere less logical.

After all, heaven forbid an indian man and a white woman become one.

Blogger ThirdMonkey August 31, 2016 12:39 PM  

At this point, the only way I am leaving my church is in a casket. Stay and fight is my current strategy. I do a lot of pushing back on things, but I spend a lot of time in prayer on my knees with the ones I push, too. I wouldn't be opposed at all of being part of housechurch Ilk group. We do family worship every day at my house, anyway. Might as well add a couple of families into the mix once a week.

Blogger Mad Dyeda Jørgen August 31, 2016 12:48 PM  

@130

I used to feel the same way. Then I saw how thoroughly churches can be destroyed, even with a *majority* of good people pushing back as hard as they can without setting fires. Eventually, most of the good people get tired of it and leave, and the remnant end up shoved into a few pews in back where they are systematically excluded. No thanks. If the leadership of a church is unwilling to accept the counsel of scripture, they get to eat my dust.

Blogger Nate August 31, 2016 12:50 PM  

"Mmm. The same, jew and greek, yet marriage is forbidden? Go spew your idiotic thoughts somewhere less logical. "

that verse doesn't mean what you think it means.

I myself don't consider inter-racial marriage a sin. I just think its a bad idea.

Then again I also think its a bad idea for auburn fans and alabama fans to intermarry.

OpenID boardroomal August 31, 2016 12:58 PM  

The best book on this subject I have found that does a great job nailing the history of the feminization of Christianity is a book by Dr. Leon J Podles, which I read while I was converting to Catholicism about 12 years ago entitled, "The Church Impotent: The Feminization of Christianity". Very thorough....and this is why I converted to Catholcism. Now don't get me wrong, Catholicism is rife with: Social Justice Warriors, Faggot Clergy, Heterodox and Heretic laity, clergy and theologians however,

1. The priesthood and clergy are "Male only" this will never change...we just need to clean up the faggotry now
2. The Doctrines & Dogma are impossible to change...this really pisses off the Libs and the SJW's...it is amazing to me how dedicated these evil bastards are in the church that they never leave but try to stay in...however the rules are so well defined...I identified that the Dogma and Doctrines are the Supernatural Infrastructure on the boat....and its impossible to change it. Even the Pope cannot do it.
3. There are good orthodox priests sprinkled here and there...they are militant warriors for Christ and truly rise to the call of the ordained...find & support them.

OpenID boardroomal August 31, 2016 1:03 PM  

I also believe the "Eastern Orthodox" churches are also bastians of true Christianity....witness eastern orthodox lead angry men rushing an attempt at Western "LGBT Parades"....didn't end up well for the "Genital-Led" people. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBshyyKQQoY

Evangelicals are "Cuckservative Neocons" that focus their services on really bad Christian Rock music...and "Goodfeels"

Blogger Anonymous-9 August 31, 2016 1:30 PM  

#16 One of these days we need to create a map where unchurched Ilk will put their pins, and start organizing house Churches near Ilk hotspots. Remember, you only need two or three. Preferably three, because two can feel a little gay.

Are women allowed to attend?

Anonymous User August 31, 2016 1:32 PM  

Any nation that follows Church teaching on marriage, birth control, and abortion is going to win compared to any nation that doesn't.

Blogger haus frau August 31, 2016 1:32 PM  

We have a music director at my church who is probably in his 60's and has been married for decades. Nice couple but he speaks with a lisp and every time he speaks to the congregation of this or that missions trip he chokes up and starts crying on stage in front of everyone. The last time was two weeks ago talking about the mission to oaxaca. He made his little speech for 10 minutes or more crying the whole time. I could hardly stand it. I would not have thought it wouldn't occur to the church elders that this is uncomfortable and unattractive. Show casing effeminacy in men is not how you grow a congregation.

Blogger Markku August 31, 2016 1:38 PM  

Are women allowed to attend?

Yes. But we don't specifically seek out women. Whenever you get men doing something significant, women ALWAYS follow.

Blogger clk August 31, 2016 2:24 PM  

@53 --- "Stow it, cucky. The "I don't know if...." line of attempted criticism is nothing more than a meandering, nonsensical, and usually ignorant expression of feelbad"

Wow .. and to your longest reader.:) ..I am always pleasant to everyone until its no longer time to be pleasant -- if you mistake old fashion manners for cucky then by all means continue on with your error. I am pretty sure you have a rule here about treating others as you expect to be treated (its either your rule or Gods rule - I often get the two of you confused although he is a bit taller and significantly less sanctimonious) .. If I have broken some rule, then please let me know and I will try not to do that .. but I am pretty sure I haven't other than possibly point out reasonable positions in a polite manner.

I think you own me a beer...

Blogger Snidely Whiplash August 31, 2016 2:36 PM  

Anonymous-9 wrote:Are women allowed to attend?

Depends. Can you keep you mouth shut? Do you know how to pour a beer and make a sandwich?

Blogger Jed Mask August 31, 2016 2:40 PM  

KJV 1 Corinthians 14:34-35,

34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

KJV 1 Timothy 2:11-12,

11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

KJV 1 Timothy 3:11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
_____________________

... Ah-men! Amen! ... A wonderful, in-depth piece written describing the plight of the Modern Western American Christian Church. Amen.

You've critiqued the problems precisely Mr. Vox.

At the local family church I've been going to and serving as an usher has many of the same "churchian issues" going on, from the "music", "women-catering", thinly-veiled "attacks" on "male-bashing" and appeasing the sensibilities of the female audience in the "uncomfortable, uneasy" social atmosphere.

I'm definitely an "outsider" there in the church like some strange "black sheep" walking about as the "elephant in the room" because I go diametrically against everything that is going on there in accordance to God's Word (King James Version Holy Bible [KJV]).

By His Grace I've been like a "witness" to the brethren at the congregation and between real life and my "virtual online presence" from people who may have seen Who I stand for online; I think it's clear to most everyone there at the church I'm not "all in" with how the church is currently functioning.

Well, individually we can and SHOULD make a stand to live and do what's right in His Word but it has to be coordinated in PATIENCE, GOOD JUDGMENT and TIMING to be most effective; always listening to the Holy Spirit for Guidance and Direction.

Okay now, I'll leave it there for now.

Quite a lot of issues up for discussion.

Good to see that Vox and the people here commenting are going somewhere with this post to IMPLEMENT in real life at the churches. Amen.

~ Sincerely,

Bro. Jed

Blogger Austin Ballast August 31, 2016 2:50 PM  

Markku,

I don't know if your response about RCC stuff was due to the list or a deleted conversation, but I would definitely have Roman Catholic on the list. People can choose themselves.

I would add a charismatic choice to account for that. It may matter to some people.

Nate,

I am tired of arguing with others to at least some extent. Church should be with somewhat like minded people, not a debate club. It won't be perfect, but why go someplace you have to fight for many things? Where do you draw the personal line?

====

I grew up RCC and was even an altar boy for a short time. Distant ceremony does nothing for me now. It does fit some and they can go for it if they wish, but making disciples is more important than anything else.

Blogger Nate August 31, 2016 2:56 PM  

"I am tired of arguing with others to at least some extent."

Go orthodox and submit to the church. They haven't changed in 2000 years and they ain't gonna start now.





if my church ever posts a sign out front that says "no guns allowed" I will never step foot in the church again.

Blogger Nate August 31, 2016 2:57 PM  

" It does fit some and they can go for it if they wish, but making disciples is more important than anything else."

this is the primary focus of my local church. connecting people with Jesus. Making disciples. if that is truely the main focus of the church... then how active girls are in sunday service really doesn't matter that much.

Blogger Markku August 31, 2016 3:06 PM  

but I would definitely have Roman Catholic on the list

I wouldn't. First of all I'm not interested in the slightest bit, and second, I would have no means of determining if the claim is credible. So, I'm not going to put OUR credibility on it. But, I would be inclined to hand over the code to some catholic who wants to run the project, as long as it doesn't have any implied connection to us.

Anonymous Jane C August 31, 2016 3:10 PM  

I attend a "gospel assembly" church in western Canada, an area known for its non-participation in religion. Gospel assembly has no paid staff - it is all done by volunteers, so everyone pitches in. The church elders who preach at services are all male. Women do not teach in the church except in Sunday school. We sing old hymns that have stood the test of time. Women cover their heads during church and no one wears revealing clothing to church. It is way less feminized than other churches. People at this church seem happy and understanding of their roles. My husband (normally not a churchgoer) doesn't mind attending sometimes. It is a simple, Bible believing church that throws a mean potluck!

Blogger Markku August 31, 2016 3:15 PM  

I mean, revival of traditional Vatican I Catholicism - with independent house Churches? That idea is so preposterous as to be straight out of Monty Python. The system doesn't work that way. The Protestant system does.

And, if Catholics want this "latin mass" thing like they seem, I'm pretty sure there are already lists out there. It's a simple is-or-isn't determination.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash August 31, 2016 3:21 PM  

Nate wrote:if that is truely the main focus of the church... then how active girls are in sunday service really doesn't matter that much.
Lex orandi, lex credendi as the Latins say. The rule of prayer becomes the rule of belief.
How the services are run is actually more important than making converts, because the converts you make and they way they grow into Christian disciples will be determined by the services you provide.
If you want a concrete example, look at the Catholic Mass. in 1965 they turned the altars around. Seemingly a small and simple change, make the service more accessible to the congregation, make sure that people can hear the prayers.
Unfortunately, it changes the action, from the priest leading the people in prayer and offering their gifts and sorrows back to God to the priest teaching the people through what are ostensibly prayers to God.
What was directed at God is now directed at the people, for their emotional and intellectual development.
By turning towards the people, the priest, in a very small and minor way, has turned his back to God.
And most of the destruction in the Catholic Church has followed from that.

Blogger yoghi.llama August 31, 2016 3:32 PM  

Well it's all just gone round in a circle and resurfaced. Xianity was the cultural Marxism of the 4th century -- the equalitarian ideology that helped various assorted slaves, women, Semites, Goths and Celts feel that they were equal to, or better than, accomplished Greek and Roman pagan philosophers and initiates of the mystery cults.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash August 31, 2016 3:52 PM  

yoghi.llama wrote:Well it's all just gone round in a circle and resurfaced. Xianity was the cultural Marxism of the 4th century -- the equalitarian ideology that helped various assorted slaves, women, Semites, Goths and Celts feel that they were equal to, or better than, accomplished Greek and Roman pagan philosophers and initiates of the mystery cults.
Oh bullshit. That's simply a tendentiously repurposed version of "Constantine destroyed the true Christian Church!" It was a lie in that version and it's a lie in this version.

Anonymous Instasetting August 31, 2016 4:00 PM  

Nate, be honest, you just don't think Auburn fans should be allowed out in public, let alone marry.

Anonymous Avalanche August 31, 2016 4:09 PM  

@8 "A masculine Christianity knows God's approval and seeks none other."

I struggled a bit, early on, with my husband's clear sense that as much as he wanted MY respect, a woman's respect -- in the 'real' world -- is not worth anything in regards to a man's view of himself. For a man, only another man's respect has meaning to him. Certainly, I respected the hell out him, such as I have never felt for another man, but as a matter that mattered TO HIM; it was merely appropriate (and appreciated) that I respected him; he needed to be worthy of men's respect.

(And, actually, that increased my respect FOR him! He neither needed nor wanted the respect of women -- or womanish men!)

Anonymous Avalanche August 31, 2016 4:19 PM  

@27 "You are mighty generous with Vox's elbow grease, Markku. Though... someone trusted could be given such a task."

It's 10 years from now. Vox has anointed ... er, that is ... APPOINTED the "pope of the Alt-Right" (well our branch of it, anyway {wink}), who does, in fact, arrange transportation and reading lists (all from Castalia House, of course).

The world is different, but not SO different that we do not hear the aggrieved cry, from somewhere in Italy:

"Will NO ONE rid me of this meddling priest?!"

Blogger JohnG August 31, 2016 4:22 PM  

@128 I think this pope is probably worse than you think. Here and Here , though I think the female clergy is just a symptom. It looks to me like everything going on in the "church" is pretty much just following the script.

OpenID camillacameo August 31, 2016 4:23 PM  

@149
Yes, yes, yes. Catholics needn't be included in this map thing, because we have too many structural requirements for our worship to be valid and licit--validly ordained priest with permission to celebrate from the bishop of the diocese--so a system of folks starting up their own church groups wouldn't work, AND because we already have lots of networks in place for this. http://www.latinmasstimes.com/

I also recommend the liturgy of the Personal Ordinariates; it's basically the TLM in Prayer Book English, though those parishes are rarer.

Blogger Were-Puppy August 31, 2016 4:25 PM  

@100 Arthur Isaac
A careful reading of the letters to the Churches in Revelation shows that the 5 Churches that receive a rebuke have woman problems.
---

I read through all of those a few days ago. Pretty scary the various churches, even the ones doing good, were still lacking.

Blogger L. Jagi Lamplighter Wright August 31, 2016 4:27 PM  

What church is this? Not the (insert word that means morally conservative that is not whatever the Alt-Right objects to in political conservatives) churches. Not the Catholic church. Not even the Lutheran that runs our Boy Scout Troop.

I assume this is the Left-leaning SJW-infected churches.

Blogger yoghi.llama August 31, 2016 4:30 PM  

Of course Constantine didn't destroy the true church, he just presided over a narrowing of the focus of an already somewhat debased popular movement.

It has been correctly pointed out that in a stable state or empire, people need to be bound together by a common ancestry or a common ideology. Unfortunately if you want > 50% of the people to grasp the ideology, needs must it be aimed below the average IQ of the people.

Xianity and Islām were both obviously such ideologies created to bind people together into multicultural empires. In Xianity's case, a decaying one, in Islām's case, a cheeky new startup. Aśoka was probably trying to do the same kind of thing with Buddhism in the Maurya empire.

Xianity and Buddhism have both subsequently transcended that political aspect of their history; Islām not.

Blogger Nate August 31, 2016 4:58 PM  

"How the services are run is actually more important than making converts"

The Great Commission says... No.

Anonymous TLM August 31, 2016 5:01 PM  

139. haus frau

A few years ago my old pastor asked me to go golfing with two white guys from his hometown that run some Haitian non-profit charity that were visiting. Mind you this charity is not based in Haiti but in our state. The 2 dudes seemed like normal guys when we golfed. The next morning one the guys spoke in front of the congregation and he transformed from normal golfing guy into a fountain of tears and anguish over these poor Haitians. I mean some serious water works and theatrics. I'm sitting there thinking were was any of this yesterday? It seemed like one big phony act. And it was really over the top, very off putting.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash August 31, 2016 5:12 PM  

L. Jagi Lamplighter Wright wrote:What church is this? Not the (insert word that means morally conservative that is not whatever the Alt-Right objects to in political conservatives) churches. Not the Catholic church. Not even the Lutheran that runs our Boy Scout Troop.

Congratulations of having a bishop who runs a tight diocese.
Or maybe the particular problem we're talking about isn't obvious to a woman.
Does your local parish have altar girls? Female Eucharistic ministers? Female preaching? An office dragon that runs the priests? More gossipy old biddies than small children?

Blogger haus frau August 31, 2016 5:18 PM  

@162
TLM viscerally revolting just about covers it. Emotional incontinence in public from a woman is awkward but to be expected. We're just wired that way. In a man its self humiliation dressed up as virtue. This particular music director is probably just that way, but he ought to know how unseemly it is to put his bad tendencis on full display repeatedly.

Anonymous cheddarman August 31, 2016 5:36 PM  

I could go for anything protestant, be it high church Anglican or snake handling hillbilly independent churches, as long as they are obedient to the full counsel of the word of God.

Blogger Nate August 31, 2016 5:48 PM  

"Nate, be honest, you just don't think Auburn fans should be allowed out in public, let alone marry."

Can Confirm.

Blogger Austin Ballast August 31, 2016 6:01 PM  

Nate,

Go orthodox and submit to the church. They haven't changed in 2000 years and they ain't gonna start now.

Not happening anytime soon. I am very much a Sola Scruptura guy and would fit in there even less.

My point about arguing is I see little value in that. I suppose I would content more if I had been in a church a while and it was headed downhill, but trying to persuade others that they are wrong is a mostly waste of time today.

I will explain just about anything to those who are interested, but I don't see much of that, unfortunately.

Blogger Mark Butterworth August 31, 2016 6:16 PM  

The Orthodox and Catholic Church have been strongly conservative in preserving their doctrines and dogmas, but many RC diocesan chanceries are run by women in the US (I know this for a fact in Sacramento) and are highly feminized. Same with RCIA programs having women directors and doing all the teaching Paul forbids them from doing.

In general, church alters people but little through the course of their lives. Those who want to get closer to God join monastic Orders as priests, monks, nun, and lay brothers or sisters.

Thus, a feminized church has no appeal to men since they aren’t really there to be radically transformed, but to find fellowship, community, and helpful roles to play. Men will go along with the fact that much of the Faith makes no sense so long as they are getting something out the deal.

With having women in charge and gamma (or gay) male priests, there is nothing in such a church to appeal to men.

And so, even a conservative church like the RC (discounting the fraud Francis) offers little to nothing for a layman’s involvement.

Blogger dfordoom August 31, 2016 6:34 PM  

26. Timmy3

Do I know why church attendance declined? I have no idea, but blaming it on male bashing and the feminized church is not looking at other influences.

The schools may have something to do with it. I don't mean the public schools, I mean the church schools. The public schools just preach atheism. At least you can fight against that. The church schools preach a distorted and perverted Christianity that is all about Social Justice and feelings. Churchianity if you like. That's much more dangerous. So many well-meaning people still think they're getting their kids a religious education by sending them to a church school.

It's easier to convert an atheist to Christianity than to convert a churchian to Christianity.

So homeschooling offers some hope. Withdraw your support from church schools. It's a way of fighting back.

Blogger Unknown August 31, 2016 7:22 PM  

The Church of the Little Kings has an affirming ring to it. Could work. Would need a lot of exclusions and maybe a new bible. Some new commandments may help - no cucks, no Midwits, no brownies, no dissenters, no lefties. Could gather writings from inspiring believers and publish them under a new label online. It's worth a try. I'm a member already. Takes the new word with me wherever I go, and fellowships whenever I logs on. I prays the way I want, chooses my own verses, cuts across any old ideas I want, weaves new theology to patch up holeses, I takes the Precious with me so's I can read the latest Wordses from The Dark Lords my Godses on the busses, and preaches Words of Great Import to those who are hungry and thirsty and needful as far as my selfses can see.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash August 31, 2016 7:28 PM  

Unknown wrote:The Church of the Little Kings has an affirming ring to it.
That's nice dear. Now go away, the men are talking.

Blogger Kirk Forlatt August 31, 2016 9:02 PM  

@126

Calvinistic churches are "straight up red pill?" They're the ecclesiastical Marines, hmm?

Pardon my quoting Shakespeare, but that's bull f*cking sh*t.

As a former elder in the PCA (I'm one of those "Dones," I suppose), I can say flatly that the PCA, the OPC, and all the other "conservative" Presbyterian and Reformed denominations are as rabidly virtue-signaling as a lefty SJW group-grope in Takoma Park. The PCA just finished devoting almost an entire General Assembly to apologizing for slavery and trying to figure out how to make black people like them. Calvinistic churches are run by bloodless, chestless, syllogism-spouting eggheads who live in mortal terror of pissing of their womenfolk. Their God is abstract, not personal. Everything is a feekin' DEBATE with those fellows. They'll divide and shun at the drop of a head-covering. They're forever "disappointed" and they find plain, masculine speech to be "unfortunate" and "sad." They burn beaucoup calories frowning and shaking their heads.

Someone who comes out of some evanjellyfish cuckregation might be awed at the Reformed boys and their bowties and single-malt parties, but a close look will disillusion a straight-thinking follower of Christ.

If someone finds and wants to support a Calvinist congregation, have at it and blessings to you. But at least go into it with open eyes. And beware of comparisons to the Marine Corps. I'm not just a former Presbyterian officer...I'm a former Marine, too. And Chesty Puller is cussing in his Valhalla at the faggotry and military holiness spiral into which his once proud Corps has descended, with the Commandant nodding along.

Blogger Mountain Man August 31, 2016 9:44 PM  

@172
Well written indictment. Having attended a hard core Reformed Bible Church for nearly 7 years of my life I can second your assessment. The church imploded due to lack of charity, infighting over minute points of doctrine and whispering among the women folk. While there I never once heard a sermon exhorting the women to stop gossiping and to truly submit to their husbands. Nope - how could that be done when the outwardly "submissive" women had their proud ,dour husbands by the balls when behind closed doors. What a joke ! Couldn't leave the church quick enough

Blogger MarkAA August 31, 2016 10:01 PM  

The strength of their masculinity varies a lot from congregation to congregation, but conservative (LCMS) Lutherans are the manliest Christians I know. Few SJWs, strong emphasis on family and providing for them, with fathers having headship. All-male clergy, pro-life, pastors and all-male elders determine and run the worship. Lots of home groups and Lutheran schools. Schoolteachers are have a ministry call from the congregation and must take a vow to uphold the creeds, and the Lutheran confessions. Have their own denominational colleges and seminaries. Far from perfect, but better than most.

Anonymous Pennywise August 31, 2016 10:06 PM  

"Rollo Tomassi observes that there is a material price to the structural and spiritual violations of 1 Corinthians 14:34-35..."

About that...Based on a detailed examination of Greek manuscripts, Dr. John Gustavson states, "Paul never wrote these words as a 'commandment of the Lord' but was simply quoting what the Judaizers in the Corinthian church were saying." He goes on to say that "there is not one trace from Genesis to Malachi of any such prohibition of women to literally keep silent in the church nor is there a single word in the whole 'law of Moses' dealing with the subject." So what "law" is the author referring to or quoting? Gordon Fee says this "law" refers to an external source, meaning "an oral understanding of Torah such as found in rabbinic Judaism." Gustavson agrees and points out that the Jewish Oral Law taught the silencing of women and cites the Talmud that states it is "a shame for a woman to let her voice be heard among men." He also notes that Paul never appealed to the "law" for the guidance of the Church of Christ. On the contrary, he declared that believers were dead to the law by the body of Christ" (Rom. 7:4) so that they might serve in newness of spirit and not the oldness of the letter (Rom. 7:6).

From "Did Paul Really Say, "Let the Women Keep Silent in the Churches"? Dennis J. Preato

Blogger Lazarus August 31, 2016 10:48 PM  

Pennywise wrote:About that...Pennywise wrote:.Based on a detailed examination of Greek manuscripts, Dr. John Gustavson states, "Paul never wrote these words as a 'commandment of the Lord' but was simply quoting what the Judaizers in the Corinthian church were saying.

Yes. About that.........

1 Timothy 2:11
A woman must learn in quietness and full submissiveness.

1 Timothy 2:12
I do not permit a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man; she is to remain quiet.



I respectfully submit that Dr. John Gustavson is an SJW, and has exercised Rule 1 of that tribe.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash August 31, 2016 11:44 PM  

Pennywise wrote:

About that...Based on a detailed examination of Greek manuscripts, Dr. John Gustavson states... a whole bunch or bullshit.

Theologians can always find a reason to ignore the plain text of scripture. It shouldn't have to be a Catholic to remind you.
"Based on a detailed examination of Greek manuscripts" the Jesus Seminar concluded that Jesus never actually said anything important, wasn't God, and the minority report concluded that He never existed.
And all this when the fruits of greater female participation in leadership, ministry and services are pain for all to see. I'm sure if you asked an Anglican theologian, he would tell you there is no reliable scriptural authority for not ordaining sodomites as well.

The fact that a theologian came to the conclusion is a primary reason to cast a wary eye on it.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash August 31, 2016 11:45 PM  

well... plain, but pain seems to work too.

Blogger John rockwell August 31, 2016 11:57 PM  

@VD

Just be aware there is alot of alterations to the translation in the NIV 2011 to conform to the feminist/egalitarian standard:
http://www.waynegrudem.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/An-Evaluation-of-Gender-Language-in-the-2011-NIV.pdf

Blogger Subversive Saint September 01, 2016 3:24 AM  

True enough. War Eagle

Blogger Kirk Forlatt September 01, 2016 6:46 AM  

One other observation on finding a congregation with whom to gather...unless you find yourself in extraordinary circumstances, you will have to remain silent among these "brothers and sisters in Christ" about your political, social, racial, economic, philosophical, and relational beliefs. Think I'm exaggerating? Put my statement to the test, then. Go to any church gathering and during the "fellowship" time, engage some of them in conversation. It won't be five minutes before SOME topic along the above-mentioned lines arises. Simply tell the truth of what you believe. And then watch yourself get sidelined, shunned, and incrementally cast out. Unless you find yourself among a group of His followers who also happen to be readers of your favorite blog, you're going to have to operate undercover. And if you have to keep secret your ideas and beliefs on these topics in a place where there SHOULD be free and frank discussion, what does that tell you? What's the point of even being there? The "two or three" idea is the absolute best. You don't need more than that. The Lord you claim to trust and believe said it plainly. Two or three of you gather, and He's there with you. Why do you need a large group, a building, and a mission statement? If anyone has a different experience, my hat is off and my apology at the ready, gentlemen.

Blogger Bede Jarrow September 01, 2016 7:07 AM  

As someone that was in a the religious life for some time, you have no idea the level of cuckoldry that exists among clergy of a certain age when you make the suggestion that the church needs to be re-embrace the masculine and eschew the feminine or that the so-called victims are rarely the actual victims.

Blogger Mad Dyeda Jørgen September 01, 2016 9:24 AM  

@172

I speak of Calvinism as theology and philosophy, not a denomination. To the best of my knowledge, there is not one single "Calvinistic" denomination currently in existence. PCA, PCUSA, CoC et al are entry drugs for Unitarianism, and have been for at least half a century. None of them can any longer affirm the Westminster Confession, although a few pastors here and there might pretend to.

Calvinism that affirms Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace and Perseverance of the Saints is invincible when pitted against manipulative, emotion-driven Churchianity. If Calvinism comes of as harsh or unloving, it should be remembered that a Calvinist cannot be shamed into supporting a hopeless mission trip or redefining sin, because for a Calvinist these are not emotional decisions. We do not wring our hands over lost souls, because God is the Admiral of every soul and He unerringly sends them whither He would. This is why I called it redpill Christianity. It utterly emancipates the believer from the whinging appeal, and the altar call, and the unceasing casting of peals before swine that typifies the feminized, evangelical church.

I confess that we are a contentious lot, and love debate. This is why Calvinism does not make a good system of order for churches. But as a philosophy for individuals, it is excellent.

Anonymous Anonymous September 02, 2016 9:56 AM  

http://www.portlandpua.com/stylelife/Files/Preparing/The%20Red%20Queen%20by%20Matt%20Ridley.pdf
Worth a read

Anonymous Rugby11 September 02, 2016 9:58 AM  

Worth a read
http://www.portlandpua.com/stylelife/Files/Preparing/The%20Red%20Queen%20by%20Matt%20Ridley.pdf

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