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Monday, August 01, 2016

It survived the Borgias and Avignon

So one would presume the Catholic Church will also survive the increasingly disastrous Pope Francis. But I expect he is testing the Catholicism, though not the Christianity, of more than a few Catholics these days. I mean, seriously, "a new humanity"? What sort of Communist post-Christian anti-Biblical happy talk is that?
Flying back to Rome Sunday night from Krakow, he was asked by reporters why he has never used the word "Islam" when denouncing terrorist attacks.

Francis said he thinks "it's not right to identify Islam with violence."

He added that every religion has its "little group of fundamentalists.'" He said that if he speaks of violent Islam, he'd have to speak of violent Catholicism, since Catholics kill, too.

Referring to Isis, also known as Islamic State group, Francis said it "presents itself with its violent identity card, but it's not Islam.'"

God, said Francis in his final homily of the pilgrimage, "demands of us real courage, the courage to be more powerful than evil, by loving everyone, even our enemies."

"People may judge you to be dreamers, because you believe in a new humanity, one that rejects hatred between peoples, one that refuses to see borders as barriers and can cherish its own traditions without being self-centered or small-minded," Francis told his flock.

Earlier in his pilgrimage, Francis had expressed dismay that many people and places aren't welcoming enough to refugees or those fleeing poverty in their homelands.
That's not Catholicism. That's not Christianity. That's raw Neo-Babelism. One observes that despite his attempt to encourage Poles to meekly accept Islamic invasion, Francis has taken in fewer refugees than the so-called Nazi Pope took in Jews.

He's literally preaching an anti-Crusade of Muslim occupation. I understand that his comments often get taken out of context, but this is straight from the jackass's mouth. No wonder the very Catholic Polish government wasn't enthusiastic about his visit.

I'm very interested in knowing what the Catholics here think about this pope. I am NOT interested in hearing the various anti-Catholics spewing their usual venom nor is this an invitation to do so, so be aware that I won't hesitate to delete Protestant comments on this post. But from an outsider's perspective, considering the way in which this pope followed on the heel's of Benedict's resignation, there does appear to be something seriously wrong in the Vatican.

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305 Comments:

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Anonymous Juan Carlo of the Nerds August 01, 2016 5:50 AM  

Nah man, that IS Christianity.
Christianity is guilty for modern liberalism and Western Modernity in general. Heck, when you try to read modern apologists like David B. Hart or Rodney Stark, you see that bastards are actually proud of it.

High time for the West to rid itself of subversive Jewish god, and embrace our own Gods which we forgot and buried.

Blogger szopen August 01, 2016 5:52 AM  

In the meantime, the number of days since last muslim terrorist attack...

121 584.

In Poland, that this.

Within 15 minutes I will translate fragments of one of Polish nationalist-catholic well-known publishers.

Blogger VD August 01, 2016 5:58 AM  

Nah man, that IS Christianity.

Don't be a complete idiot. No Christian is going to have his faith shaken, let alone start worshiping gods of wood and stone, because the College of Cardinals happened to choose another lunatic.

Anonymous Pope Cleophus I August 01, 2016 6:02 AM  

If being a disciple of George Soros and Karl Marx would get you to heaven, he would have ascended already. I cannot recall any pope in my life being as far left of center as this one.

Perhaps it is the screwed up ideology of the Society of Jesus. Perhaps it is the influence of his homeland. Whatever it is, I find I like this pope less each time he opens his mouth.

I was cool to Benedict when he became pope, but I found that I preferred his more conservative stance.

Maybe Francis should grow out the Karl Marx beard.

Blogger Rantor August 01, 2016 6:03 AM  

Arch-Catholic Ann Barnhardt calls Pope Francis a diabolical narcissist. Based on her description they are the worst form of human, seeking to sin and destroy and force the weak and unwitting to join in their evil.

Anonymous Steve August 01, 2016 6:04 AM  

Catholic here. Raised in the sort of household that has pictures of JPII and Padre Pio on the walls, BVM statuette on top of the telly, and a holy water font at the door.

So, naturally pretty loath to criticise Il Papa.

That said, Francis just gets worse every time he opens his big, flappy Argentinian mouth. I've never before felt contempt for the Bishop of Rome, but I do now.

The man is an utter fool. Not a fool for Christ, mind, but a dancing monkey for the enemies of Christendom. Even the most cynical and corrupt of medieval clerics was better than Francis, because at least those men stood up to our Muslim enemies.

If it weren't for the fact that mainline Protestant denominations round here are equally-if-not-more pozzed I'd consider joining them.

I have a wholly newfound sympathy for Henry VIII. If I could, I'd bundle this pontiff into a rocketship and fire it directly into the sun.

Then try to feel remorse so I could make a true confession.

Anonymous Auntie Emm August 01, 2016 6:04 AM  

I pray for him. I do not like him. He is misguiding millions, billions of Catholics. what else could we expect from a Latin American Socialist?

I go to Mass for worship, and the Eucharist. Each week, the priest vague-sermons to the congregation about peace and love. It's starting to sound more like some quasi-Hindu karma chant. The notion of Christian love - the "Love thy enemy" type - is never explained. Love they neighbor is never explained, either. Just love them...how? Romantically? Have sex with everyone you meet to show your love? Well of course not, that's ridiculous on it's surface. But so is giving away your home to them (which immigration forces us to do) and allowing them to abuse your physical substance, your children, and your peace.

I hear all of this in Bergoglio's speeches. Let them overrun you, he says. We must love our enemies, and it's implied that if you don't, you're not Catholic.

And there's the danger. "You're not Catholic if you don't follow what the Pope said." It offers the dagger to those who are looking for any small thing to exploit about one's professed faith.

Bergoglio is divisive, and he is separating the sheep from the goats, but he is not the shepherd.

So I'll keep praying that he will hear God, and know, and that other Christians will hear God, and that those who have not heard will also come to know God.

Blogger Doom August 01, 2016 6:07 AM  

Black pope. First! (Or maybe not, haven't checked.)

Literally, I think of him as among those anti-faithful popes, the Vatican II, and other things that are bad and just have to be endured. Or, politically, much as I think of obama and being American. They don't really work together, but one doesn't make me less the other. I realize one isn't what it seems.

I think of him, actually, as the Catholic form of zero's unholy man... the wrong reverend wright. Both are forms of anti-colonialism, having almost nothing to do with actual faith. Mugabe could well be a preacher of such, he certainly has acted on it. I do think, coming from where he came from, and being what he was, he tried harder to be even more of an oppressed south american in spite of actually being Italian. He is much of why I don't trust south of the border Catholicism. At least he hasn't murdered any little naked boys by painting them gold. That I know of... as pope.

Of course, it looks like he is exactly what the big money (American Catholics) wanted. Though I think they are the globalists, so... Being false, globalist, and even a phony minority. He's a globalist's poster pope.

Blogger wasu August 01, 2016 6:07 AM  

Poles say "Pope is infallible in faith matters. ... only" and then they add that they are ready to show Christian mercy - at distance

I wonder how are opinions about WYD in US

Blogger Lazarus August 01, 2016 6:08 AM  

Pope Francis: He added that every religion has its "little group of fundamentalists.'" He said that if he speaks of violent Islam, he'd have to speak of violent Catholicism, since Catholics kill, too.

versus

Reality:

If a group of Jewish or Christian terrorists in Algeria, Egypt or Saudi Arabia had committed the same kind of stabbings, car-rammings, throat-slittings and shootings that France and Germany are suffering now, they would have provoked an immediate reaction. Tens of thousands -- maybe hundreds of thousands -- of enraged Muslims would have rushed into the streets to kill, stab or eviscerate the first group of Jews or Christians they met. Within 24 hours, no church or synagogue would be able to open its doors: all of them would have been burned to cinders.

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/8568/europe-islamist-terrorism-denial

Anonymous Euryale August 01, 2016 6:09 AM  

Catholics have an extremely high aversion to internal divisions. They are by construction anti-schismatic. Approaching them on topics such as the strangeness of the behavior and words of the higher clergy is akin to walking on a minefield. Their tendency is to explain everything away.

In France, this attitude is fortified by a strong, cultivated feeling of persecution by the secular state. The catholics stay as much as they can out of politics and just want to raise families. They refuse to see that their church has been massively infiltrated by progressivism.

Example : cardinal Wölki, who recently acquired a migrant ship, turned it into a mass altar, and explained the cries of the drowning migrants are the cries of God. The reaction I got from a French relatively high thymos catholic was: "but they're Protestants in Germany, it was a Protestant."

For a historical example of half-arsed catholic dissidence, you can read this piece on the Thymos Book Club: https://thymosbookclub.wordpress.com/2016/06/08/nerd-rage/
It takes place in 17th C France.

Bergoglio is seriously fraying the nerves of French catholics. All kinds of statements, texts, clarifications of doctrine relative to courage and anger are surfacing and resurfacing. The best French speaking blog to follow this, or anything related to French politics in general, is La lime: http://fboizard.blogspot.fr/ — Frank writes with a high-thymos, high-intellect catholic point of view.

The Thymos Book Club, based in Paris, recently formulated a doctrinal statement that takes the exact counterpoint of Bergoglio: https://thymosbookclub.wordpress.com/2016/07/30/the-thymos-book-club/

The uncucking of the French catholics, or of a sufficiently large proportion of them, is key to putting a stop to the Great Replacement in Europe. The catholic character of large segments of the French military should also be kept in sight.

Anonymous Takin' a Look August 01, 2016 6:12 AM  

@1

You're describing churchianity, otherwise known as judeo-christianity. There's been elements of that for centuries but it is only in the last 200 years has it really gained steam. As Vox said, it ultimately leads to Babelism.

And yes, this is a feature, not a bug.

Blogger #7139 August 01, 2016 6:13 AM  

Vox, I am Catholic and in my late 50s. Pope St Pius V must roll over in his grave every time Francis talks about Islam. Francis is causing scandal every other time he opens his mouth. Maybe someone will remember how to poison a pope and get rid of him. It would be the lesser evil.

Blogger Joe Keenan August 01, 2016 6:17 AM  

Hey, He's not as bad as Alexander VI. So, there's that. Part of the problem is Mass Media. The Mass Media led to the rise of the Cult of the Pope. Until relatively recently, you could be a good Catholic and go through life not even knowing who the pope is. The Magesterium of the Church possesses the Truth, not the pope. This is Catholic dogma. The rise of the Cult of the Pope has resulted in "everyone" weighing the impact of the latest utterance of the pope. This is not reflective of Catholic dogma. The pope is only protected by the chrism of infallibility when he speaks "From the Chair of Peter" that is, he makes a formal declaration. Otherwise, he's just another guy with an opinion and that opinion is not a dogma of Faith.

Anonymous Steve August 01, 2016 6:22 AM  

Each week, the priest vague-sermons to the congregation about peace and love. It's starting to sound more like some quasi-Hindu karma chant.

And they wonder why the half-empty pews are occupied by decrepit old ladies and immigrants who don't speak enough English to understand how much soft soapy shite they're hearing.

I'm convinced there's a link to the decline in liturgical standards, too. The Mass in Latin was a solemn, dignified affair. Most modern Masses assail your ears with godawful "folk groups" woefully caterwauling about Jeeeeeesssuuusss until you half expect the Son of Man himself to show up with a whip and put a stop to it.

They offend your eyes with tacky polyester vestments that look like they came from the props department of a no-budget 1970's BBC science fiction show.

Altar girls fidget and chew gum while the priest wibbles on about wuv and peace.

I rarely think of murder as often as I do during a typical modern Novus Ordo Mass.

Jesus said to sell your cloak and buy a sword. High time we did.

Blogger VoodooJock August 01, 2016 6:23 AM  

I'm a Catholic, and Catholic educated, though I haven't been to mass in years. Over the past 30 years or so, and I qualify this as someone in his 40's that hasn't been around to see the evolution of the church from days prior to Vatican II, there's been an increasing trend for the church towards Marxism. That being said, in comparison to the Pope's I've known, this one's decidedly worse when it comes to profoundly unworkable economic edicts. Given how the Church influenced early economic thought, and developed some of the fundamental ideas of capitalism, that aspect's particularly grating.

His statements on Islam though, that's sheer madness. It's easy to rationalize the Marxist rhetoric as pandering to the impoverished masses in places like Latin America and Africa. There's no rationalization of his lassitude towards the Muslim invasion of Europe. It's one thing to be ignorant of the historical context of the invasion, it's quite another to actively ignore that which is directly in front of your face.

Blogger szopen August 01, 2016 6:23 AM  

Translation is not exact. Do not quote, sometimes I cut the words or even sentences, I've only tried to preserve the gist.

Part 1
Rafał Ziemkiewicz, The mystery of Francesco

The longer I think about the pope Franceso's statements, especially since immigrants and refugees became their leitmotive- the openness for the former and submission to the latter - the more I see only two possibilities.

One, easiest and more obvious: this pope, speaking delicately, is not intelectually equal to hsi great predecessors. Instead of thinking in rigorous cetegories of his faith, he submits to the emotions. He has also problems with precise formulation of his thoughts, because of that he gives enemies of the Church the endless possibilities of cnfuding the catholics with his statements, taken our of context the easier, that even in palces where Evangelia and Catechism gives absolutely straight answers, he uses to escape from categorical statements, instead putting the Church teachings into the cotton so much that borders with witdrawal [from such teachings].

The second possibility: we are all so more screwed [in original non-vulgar, but no literary word] that everyone even dares to imagine, but we do not know that - but He already knows.

In favour of the first possibility there are many arguments, many of which already appeared in my texts. Often left-liberal media in whole Europe, and also in our place, with visible joy are beating us on the hated cathols's heads with some quote: you see, this is your Pope speaking, and how do you look now, you religiant dark mass! With naked eye you can see that this was and is their expectations with regards to World's Youth Days. So Pope would rub the nose of the Polish Church [..], so he would scold the faithful - and if he would also scold the Law and Justice, and if organisation of this great event would fail, the clique at Czerska [address of main left-wing newspaper] would be full orgasm. RIght now we have leading slogan, following their brethren German media "liberal Pope in the country of nationalists and devouts". Specific directions: "Pope greeted coldly" "Pope ashames Polish clergy" "Polish catholism has not grown up to Francesco" etc

Of course, it's hard to have pretenses to the Pope about things said by hostile propaganda, but one must admit that Francesco, with his penchant towards round and multi-meaning setences does not make their work hard.
Everyone one supposedly know that "refugees" are refugees and "immigrants" are immigrants, but Francesco cannot not know that modern leftist propaganda is based on mixing those two words.

But there is something which does not suit this variant. This Pope can also say things as wise and cathegorical as his predecessors. But he is not uttering them when he is speaking to media nad crowds. He is speaking them on closed meetings of bishops. Just make yourself familiar with archbishop Gądecki relation for Vatican Radio. You can see the other Francesco there, in the sense of broad horizons, rhetorics, being precise in identifying the problems. [...]

Blogger szopen August 01, 2016 6:24 AM  

Rafał Ziemkiewicz, mystery of francesco, part 2


The only logical explanation: the Pope who came from the other continent and who has no our European habits - and of them is considering the old continent to be the centre of civilisation - he just see that the Europe is lost for the white man. It's enough to count the demographics, estimate the will of survival of the old, decadent West' societies, look at its rot and compare it with wild vitality and self-confidency of muslims entering it from the all sides. Too long was Europe working for her doom, too far it went from her christian roots, wading into all kinds of darwinisms, marxisms and relativisms, and it's no longer possible to return her to the previous shape. Why europecentric conviction that God is expecting that from us? maybe europe already fulfilled His task in His plans, just like Jerusalem had to fall and be destroyed, and how Christian Roman Empire had to fall, even though all Christians were praying for its survival?


The Jerusalem fall threw Christians and the True Faith to all empire. Fall of the empire - to all West and North. Maybe, in order to consume the South and East, we need another historical catastrophe?

Everything is revolting inside me when Pope orders me to see Christ in people cutting the throats of old priets next to his altar, to accept them and love them. But Jesus would said he is right. If the conquered have to conquer the conquerors, then the road is via martyrdom, not sword. From my point of view the Pope is disarming us before the coming battle. But maybe he is doing that on purpose, to arm us to another battle, because this one is already lost? Maybe the conflict with the barbarism eating us from the inside is so unimportant [..] because the deviants and the singers of political correctness throats will be cut the same as martyrs, and the key to bringing back the spirit of the first christian lies elsewhere?[..]

I do not know. Words of Francesco dissapoint me and irritate me, usually they provoke irony, not the euphory, but I admit I am fascinated by His silence. Especially on Bright Mountain [Jasna Góra, monastery] where he looked at the joyful, dancing crowd of the generation doomed for the terrible future with a sight - that was my impression - like he wasn't there, sadly. [... a poem cut ...]

To tell those enthusiastic, drunken with youth people about that all? Or allow them to be happy?

But maybe he was just tired. Maybe he is just not intellectually comparable to his great predecessors. I have no idea

-- End of the translation --

Blogger Horn of the Mark August 01, 2016 6:27 AM  

I did nine years of Catholic school but I've fallen into the twice-a-year routine of my parents. I love the idea of Catholicism far more than the modern practice, and American Catholicism lacks any of the history and rich flavor of its European origins.

That said, I could still get behind it emotionally again if it cared enough to protect itself and its people and not be so damn soft. An anti-pope would be very much welcome right about now.

Blogger Conor Foran August 01, 2016 6:27 AM  

@11

You have it right on the money. Just like officers in the military commenting on the policies and nature of the sitting president, it is wildly inappropriate for Catholics to comment on the policies or person of the Pope. Nonetheless, the amount of explaining away, damage control, and changing attitudes - from "fool of God" to "what is he going to do next and when is he going to go away?" - is highly indicative of the grassroots response from faithful Catholics (as opposed to Churchian catholics).

The only question is how much worse the damage will get.

Ab ira tua, ab insidiis diaboli, a morte perpetua, libera nos, Domine.

Ut Ecclesiam tuam sanctam regere et conservare digneris, te rogamus, audi nos.

Blogger szopen August 01, 2016 6:28 AM  

Overall, I am disgusted that a tone of a lot of Polish right-wing blogs, portals and newspapers is "you see, we are not racists, we love blacks, browns, arabs too". One have an impression that they would be happy to import a million of Nigerians and another million of Syrians if they only were nominally Christian (not necessarily even Catholic).

Blogger Krul August 01, 2016 6:37 AM  

Juan Carlo of the Nerds wrote: High time for the West to rid itself of subversive Jewish god, and embrace our own Gods which we forgot and buried.

Pffft...

You Christians are so dumb. If you were smart like me you'd slaughter a pig and sprinkle its blood on a crowd of drunkards. I'm sure Wotan will protect us from disease.

Anonymous Ellipsis Lacuna August 01, 2016 6:43 AM  

I wonder how far Bergoglio would go with his non-resistance ethic. What if Italy becomes majority Muslim? What happens when St. Peter's becomes a mosque? Would he have a problem with that or would he say it's "god's will"?

Blogger Keyser Soze August 01, 2016 6:46 AM  

Ann is right. He is the leader of the diabolic narcist Vatican homo team. Salvation he does not lead to.

Blogger FALPhil August 01, 2016 6:46 AM  

Francis said he thinks "it's not right to identify Islam with violence."

Anyone who can completely ignore 1600 years of documented history has no business being a pontiff.

Anonymous Dyskord August 01, 2016 6:47 AM  

The saddest part is Benedict XVI is the Pope Catholicism needed during Merkel's Migrant Jubilee. Instead they have a Globalist, false christian, spouting churchian bullocks and washing the feet of rapists.
The worst part is the rot is set in and the Catholic Church will need to be purged of the socialists, gay lobbyists and One religion cucks.
While the Anti- Pope Francis and his ilk repeat they are standing on the right side of history, they freely perpetrate the greatest of sins for the "Greater Good" but there is no greater good. Only good and evil.

Blogger Cataline Sergius August 01, 2016 6:52 AM  

I have a genuine question for the Catholics gathered here within.

Is a schism possible?

Anonymous FrankNorman August 01, 2016 6:52 AM  

Everything is revolting inside me when Pope orders me to see Christ in people cutting the throats of old priets next to his altar, to accept them and love them. But Jesus would said he is right. If the conquered have to conquer the conquerors, then the road is via martyrdom, not sword. From my point of view the Pope is disarming us before the coming battle. But maybe he is doing that on purpose, to arm us to another battle, because this one is already lost? Maybe the conflict with the barbarism eating us from the inside is so unimportant [..] because the deviants and the singers of political correctness throats will be cut the same as martyrs, and the key to bringing back the spirit of the first christian lies elsewhere?

And maybe Bergoglio is telling you to stand down and let the Muslims kill you because he is your enemy, because he wants you to die. Simple as that.

Or you could convert to Islam. Bergoglio would probably be happy with that, too.

Blogger Mad Dok Rob August 01, 2016 6:54 AM  

Very devout Catholic here. I was very unhappy when Benedict stepped down. Was even more unhappy when Cardinal Sarah was not elevated to Pope. That man would be huge for the traditional Catholic church.

Francis for me is...well strange. He is rock solid on some things (tradional marriage, infanticide, basically all moral teachings), but then communicates them is such a bad way to let everyone think he is saying the opposite. What he appears to be the most passionate about are not theological matters (global warming, etc). With his manner, I belive he is doing damage to the church by making people think the church is changing teachings when it is not.

What faithful Catholics need in this moral mess of a temporal world is another Pope Urban. Someone that will stand up to modernity and fight for traditional Catholic morals. This is what I think the non-catholics in the world need. This is what I think Cardinal Sarah would be. The world needs someone to boldly stand up, confront evil, and (as the Democrats like to say, but never do) speed truth to power.

Anonymous Steve August 01, 2016 6:56 AM  

Is a schism possible?

My view on that is sympathetic to Michael Bolton:

Michael Bolton: Yeah, well, at least your name isn't Michael Bolton.

Samir: You know, there's nothing wrong with that name.

Michael Bolton: There *was* nothing wrong with it... until I was about twelve years old and that no-talent ass clown became famous and started winning Grammys.

Samir: Hmm... well, why don't you just go by Mike instead of Michael?

Michael Bolton: No way! Why should I change? He's the one who sucks.

Blogger Whisker biscuit August 01, 2016 6:57 AM  

If you believe the ancient prophecy of the popes, he is the final one in history.

Blogger FALPhil August 01, 2016 6:57 AM  

@10 Lazarus:

Reality:

If a group of Jewish or Christian terrorists in Algeria, Egypt or Saudi Arabia had committed the same kind of stabbings, car-rammings, throat-slittings and shootings that France and Germany are suffering now, they would have provoked an immediate reaction. Tens of thousands -- maybe hundreds of thousands -- of enraged Muslims would have rushed into the streets to kill, stab or eviscerate the first group of Jews or Christians they met. Within 24 hours, no church or synagogue would be able to open its doors: all of them would have been burned to cinders.

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/8568/europe-islamist-terrorism-denial


I thought this was appropriate.

Anonymous r August 01, 2016 6:58 AM  

I'm a traditionalist Catholic.

It seems to me that we have the pope we deserve. Collective punishment is a tool God often sees fit to use, and our task is to repent and return to righteousness - look at the book of Jonah.

If the Holy Martyrdom of Fr. Hamel is awakening the French, that's encouraging. The real sign will be the election of a pope who cleans house - Urban IX? Leo XIV? Pius XIII?

Anonymous SciVo August 01, 2016 6:59 AM  

As a lapsed convert, every time that ignorant fool opens his mouth, I feel better about not going to Mass. He clearly doesn't understand the first thing about the immense social capital that can be accumulated within a high-trust culture, since he's vigorously advocating the complete destruction of all such.

(I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt that he just can't comprehend concepts that are so alien to his nature and upbringing. It's that or he's a tool of Satan.)

Maybe I'll check out one of the Baptist churches in town; I've been that before too. And maybe next time the cardinals will pick a guy with some love for Europe and native Europeans, who might even defend them instead of encouraging the orcs.

Blogger Mad Dok Rob August 01, 2016 6:59 AM  

Sorry, mixed up my Popes. I meant Pope Pious, not Pope Urban.

Blogger Dudemeister August 01, 2016 7:02 AM  

I'm at a fairly traditional parish - one mass is full Latin, in English mass the texts are sung in Latin. Our priests are teachers (Ph.D's) at the seminary. I cannot recall the Pope ever being mentioned outside the "pray for us" shout out. We have a catacombs mentality. The world is out to weaken and challenge the faith. Our mission is a responding spiritual fight. I like this much more then the hippie newer masses and attitudes of lukewarm Catholicism.

Blogger Student in Blue August 01, 2016 7:03 AM  

I'm curious what John C. Wright would have to say on this subject. He's very good at pointing out the anti-Christian spin that media likes to put on and managed to exonerate the Pope each time something like this came up before.

Anonymous stress management August 01, 2016 7:03 AM  

Not Catholic, but sympathetic to their problems with this false shepherd, as we have had to endure our pastor preaching that Nehemiah rebuilt "a wall of acceptance and love".

The good shepherd protects his flock. The false one leaves the gate open, then pretends not to see the wolves in sheep's clothing when the flock complain, and then finally welcomes the wolves openly into the pen (and tosses out the sheep who continue to object).

Be prepared to get tossed, fellow Christians. Reminds me of someone important, I can't quite remember His name ... .

Blogger Stilicho August 01, 2016 7:11 AM  

Welcome to the Reformation!

John C. Wright has written several times about the leftist press misquoting Francis in order to present him as one of their own and that must be considered. However, the one instance I investigated at any length was Francis' failure to answer the Filipina girl who asked why there is suffering in this world. Catholics on this blog answered the question immediately. Francis was unable to (per the official Vatican news organ and not the suspect lefty press). So that must be considered as well.

Anonymous basementhomebrewer August 01, 2016 7:15 AM  

We will see how far the leadership has fallen when they select the next Pope. If they decide to go with anyone not from Europe then we will know the leadership is compromised. Any of the cardinals not compromised is secretly embarrassed and vowing to never make that mistake again.

Blogger Justin C August 01, 2016 7:17 AM  

Hi Vox,
Long time reader / lurker, I very rarely engage here. However this is near and dear to my heart. I'm a recent convert to Catholicism. I crossed the Tiber under Pope Benedict. I have really had to delve into history to find justifications to both come into the Faith, and remain in it.

Here are some point I wish to share. We have had a lot of bad popes in the past 2 millennia. The thing is, none of them thankfully had access to twitter, or journalists. These people were much worse of a pope than Francis. At least he TRIES to to / be the right thing (God Help US)

The scandal of the Arian heresy in the 3rd century shows an precedent for how many clergy can be swallowed up in an idea, but that idea (eventually) being rejected. I think up two 3/4ths of all the clergy subscribed to Arianism at one point before it was rejected at Nicea.

So we have to remind everybody, especially Liberals, that the Catholic church didn't begin with Vatican II, or Pope Francis. The Church consists of three elements. Church Militant on Earth, but we are also bound in communion, literally to our predecessors, Church Suffering (in purgatory) and Church Triumphant in Heaven.

And yes, the Jesuits should be suppressed for the sake of western civilization.

Deus Vult

Blogger Student in Blue August 01, 2016 7:32 AM  

@Justin C
The scandal of the Arian heresy in the 3rd century shows an precedent for how many clergy can be swallowed up in an idea, but that idea (eventually) being rejected. I think up two 3/4ths of all the clergy subscribed to Arianism at one point before it was rejected at Nicea.

You're making it sound like once the truth came out, everyone just rushed to agree that "Oh, you're right that was a bad idea wasn't it?". It completely belies the amount of hard work and dedication needed for truth to finally gain ground against a big lie.

Blogger Stephen August 01, 2016 7:34 AM  

Christianity started as a bunch of SJWs in the Roman Empire, perhaps that is the way it ends also.

Blogger Eric Guillaume Dilasser-McDowell August 01, 2016 7:40 AM  

I liked him at first, thinking he was some humble ascetic (I still think at this point that his taking away of some of the gaudiness endemic in the Vatican is a good step). Having not yet taken the red pill when he ascended, I was of a mind his non-agression regarding gays was a nice plus and that he was simply some nice guy trying to teach the hardliners how not to be arseholes.

Not much happened with him for a few years, during which I swallowed about 30 red pills, and then the next I heard of him he was preaching about the inherent peace of Islam, the goodliness of socialism, why wealth should be redistributed, and that Jesus was a violent conquerer worse than Mohamed. Imagine my shock and revulsion. There have certainly been one or two worse Popes, but never in history one who blatantly put the interests of the Church's greatest and oldest enemy before that of common Catholic citizens. As you say though, Vox, the Catholic Church has survived worse than one cuckold Pope, though these are very dark days. At this point I'm so desperate I'd happily support another Avignon Schism if it meant the rise of a Polish or Balkan Pope with big enough stones to proclaim a Tenth Crusade.

Blogger agraves August 01, 2016 7:42 AM  

I am a lapsed Catholic and have on occasion thought about going back to the Church in a serious way. This pope and his antics are like a kick in the balls whenever I consider returning forcing me to ask myself " what the hell am I thinking"?

Anonymous 3GR August 01, 2016 7:43 AM  

Catholic here. Francis is the last attempt of the ancient and grey, Vatican II generation heretical bishops, to complete their failed project of a half century ago, of trying to fully progressivize the church.

Post Vatican II, the Latin church was in chaos. The clergy was already rife with progressives, who used the council as an excuse to abandon every tradition, dogma, and practice, that conflicted with their 60's Marxist-hippy vision of what the church should be.

Then John Paul II was elected. I've heard the cardinals thought him to be a liberal; he ended up being surprisingly orthodox. Lots of criticism has been leveled at him, much deserved, but he did much to combat the errors of the progressives, and tried to steer the west back to orthodoxy.

He was also the most traveled pope in history. His visits to other nations earned him media attention and celebrity status. His high-profile relative orthodoxy lead many faithful, more traditional Catholics, to view him as a "living saint".

His pontificate was also long. This lead to his pontificate being cemented in people's minds as the standard for what a pope is.

You can read about the Catholic doctrine of infallibility here. Pay special attention to the section on papal infallibility, and what exactly that term is used to signify.

In JPII's papacy, his status as celebrity and living saint contributed to the widespread misunderstanding of papal infallibility. The masses began to act as if every word that fell from the pope's lips was inspired prophecy.

But JPII, and his successor Benedict VI, were very media savvy. They understood that all the eyes and ears of the world were on them, that whatever they said in public would be globally heard and given great weight. They were very careful in their interactions with the media.

Francis, on the other hand, blurts out whatever he wants to say. His own opinions, preaching, etc. And the world, conditioned by our past two popes, acts like he's making doctrinal pronouncements.

I'll be honest. The man seems a communist. He doesn't seem to have an adequate grasp of political reality, and he sprays his own personal ignorance all over the airwaves, to confuse entire generations of Christians all of whom have been conditioned to treat his every word as divinely inspired.

His wanting to flood Europe with foreign invaders is proof he's either ignorant, or cruel. I think it's the former. He's not letting the past 2000 years of Christian Tradition, with its respect for nations, states, and borders, inform his thinking. He's engaging in the same cultural Marxist equivocation of humanity with family. In Christian terms, he's conflating the universal church of God, with the secular order of the world. The two are not the same thing.

That the church is universal, and open to all, that all Christians are brothers in Christ, doesn't mean you have to let every Christian in the world move into your country, any more than you have to let everyone in your home parish move into your house. And it's retarded to extend Christian universalism to Muslims. They're not Christian. We are not one with them in Christ. It's only by confusing the secular order of the state with the church that this sort of error is possible.

This is what Pope Francis signifies, in my mind. He's a symbol of this confusion, set atop the church of God. A kind of progressive flag, planted on Mount Zion. Claiming this church in the name of communism, or something.

Though I do think he's an unwitting stooge and a useful idiot who really believes the fantasy that oozes from his mouth. I get the impression that he's trying to do good, but that spending his whole life in a third-world communist jungle country has addled his senses. I've often wondered if he's a punishment sent to us for our sins.

I hope he either reforms, or resigns. The sooner the better, I think.

Blogger The Kurgan August 01, 2016 7:44 AM  

This son-of-a-bitch needs smothering with a pillow.
Problem is I think he's actually the herald of the antichrist, and as such, at best, a mortal can only wound him. Still... At least it would be something.

Blogger Alexandros August 01, 2016 7:47 AM  

Orthodox here: I'm more interested in what the Roman Catholics feel about the pope emeritus. We on the Eastern side of things loved that guy. Was he popular on the RC side as well?

Anonymous Anonymous August 01, 2016 7:48 AM  

Francis merely confirmed my sedevacantist suspicions. Canon law states clearly that a manifest heretic cannot be pope, and Mr. Bergoglio speaks nothing but heresy.

Blogger Chent August 01, 2016 7:49 AM  

I'm very interested in knowing what the Catholics here think about this pope."

As a devout Catholic, I think the guy is not Catholic, not even Christian, but a heretic. The worst Pope in the history of the Catholic Church.

He is believer of the religion of the Left, disguised under a thin layer of Christianity.

The Borgias were criminals but they didn't change doctrine and they didn't mislead millions of souls so these souls chose the path to Hell

All of this was prohesized. Our Lady of La Sallette said that Rome would lose the faith anb become the See of the Antichrist while the Church is in eclipse. Francis is paving the way to this situation.

Blogger Old Ez August 01, 2016 7:49 AM  

We Catholics haven't had a Church since the Vatican II revolution overthrew Catholicism and replaced it with something else. This "Pope" seems to be the crowning achievement of that satanic revolution. The modern problems started long before Bergoglio but he appears to be their most virulent manifestation in term of affected leadership.

Anonymous Thales August 01, 2016 7:49 AM  

Well, at least bears still shit in the woods...

Blogger Richard Stone August 01, 2016 7:53 AM  

He's Benedict XVI from Camp of the Saints. If he got his way in Europe his fate would be the same too.

Blogger Justin C August 01, 2016 7:53 AM  

Well remember and baptized Catholic male could be Pope, married or not. Our Lord can decide to send a meteor tomorrow and wipe most of humanity out and I could get elected Pope next week. Things can change fast.

Anonymous Steve August 01, 2016 7:56 AM  

Alexandros - Yes. He is highly respected and widely loved. His efforts to restore solemnity and beauty to the liturgy - resisted by a lot of useless, trendy* bishops - were welcome.

* Trendy by the standards of 1973 or so. Boomers delenda est.

Blogger Richard Stone August 01, 2016 7:57 AM  

"We Catholics haven't had a Church since the Vatican II revolution overthrew Catholicism and replaced it with something else. "

I used to consider this position extreme, and for a long time frequented a moderate Catholic site that advocated how VII was a boon for the Church. After about the 100th time a commenter intellectually destroyed the argument, followed by getting banned, that I came to realize how indefensible the position was.

Anonymous Steve August 01, 2016 8:01 AM  

Justin C - Pope Trump I to Make the Vatican Great Again.

Anonymous M.W. Peak August 01, 2016 8:02 AM  

The Church will survive. Most Catholics believe (or should believe) in the Church itself while understanding that the humans who occupy it are sometimes downright corrupt. Popes come and go, but the Church and Church faithful will remain. And the backlash against the liberal reforms among the laity could easily start producing orthodox priests from which might rise a staunch, devout Catholic Pope. That is if the Church can find some way to have an Inquisition against the heretics masquerading as bishops.

Anonymous FAILBOAT August 01, 2016 8:04 AM  

Apply the logic of SJW entryism to the Vatican II heresy. There is no Catholic Church, our doctrine has been corrupted beyond recognition over the last century. Saint Peter of Verona cautioned us against those who advertise their piety through conspicuous display of poverty...this Pope should go re-read those lessons, or read them once, you know, because he probably doesn't recognize the name.

Anonymous VFM 9054 August 01, 2016 8:13 AM  

On the one hand, the Pope is correct that Christians are called to love our enemies, and pray for those who persecute us. On the other, the kind of love that he encourages is a destructive, enabling kind of sentimentality.

Part of loving well, particularly loving your enemies well, is to declare a spade a spade. When you see someone commit evil, if you love them, you must declare it evil, with the deep hope that they will repent and be reunited with Christ. Speaking truth to power, as it were.

Blogger Durandel Almiras August 01, 2016 8:16 AM  

Catholic convert from atheism. Converted in my late 20's, attended seminary, discerned out, now a family man who is a director of music for a parish. I came into the Church under Benedict.

I didn't like Francis from the beginning. His election struck me as the Cardinals doing a diversity hire (though Bergolio is Italian, but since diversitists believe in magic dirt, the guy is Argentine). Argentina is massively corrupted by Progressivism and Liberation Theology, aka Communism. I met fellow seminarians from down there and they didn't even know basic prayers or conduct requires of a seminarian. A few even thought prayer was gauche, a habit of the dumb and poor. If these seminarians were representative of what was being taugh in Argentina, then the Church is dead down there. A few of my fellow brothers in seminary were from Latin America and they were attending in the States because their bishops felt that all of the seminaries down there were compromised. So I've not had high hopes since his election.

And then he keeps opening his damned mouth. Yeah, John Wright is correct, sometimes the press screws it up and even the News.VA website screws up a translation now and again, but there was never a need to spin, and correct, and account for a pope's words like what is needed for Francis every week.

I at first gave him the benefit of the doubt and thought he just lacked skill in speaking. But after hearing enough talks or reading the Vatican News statements, I switched to he's not nearly as smart or intellectual as Benedict or JP2.

But his statements in Poland...the disconnect that World Youth Day didn't experience a terror attack because of Poland's immigration stance...he now sounds as clueless and unhinged as the progressive hippie baby boomers who still infest the Church in America.

I still wish to attribute stupidity and poor education from being a Jesuit and raised in Liberation Theology South America. But Bella Dodd and others warned that the Church was infiltrated by Communists long ago. A good chunk of those guys would be in the 70-80 age range in the Church. Maybe he's more than an idiot who preaches the World rather than the Good News.


Progressivism/Modernism is the new Arianism. We need another Athanasius.

Blogger Crude August 01, 2016 8:20 AM  

I'm very interested in knowing what the Catholics here think about this pope.

I dislike him. I tried very hard to give him the benefit of the doubt at first. I defended him, I thought he was trying to express orthodox Catholicism in new ways.

Instead, he's quickly turned into basically the Catholic Obama, complete with attacking Catholics while refusing to criticize muslims whatsoever. I suspect the main thing that keeps him from being even worse is the worry that if he were more vulgar, the Holy Spirit would move someone in the Vatican to send him hurling out a window.

Aside from the damage he's done in numerous ways, I'm glad that he ultimately operates by being intentionally unclear and vague. I hope he ends up giving the SSPX a personal prelature without any concessions on their part - if he does that, it may end up being a clear case of a rotten Pope being used for great things.

Blogger allyn71 August 01, 2016 8:22 AM  

"I'm very interested in knowing what the Catholics here think about this pope."

Nothing well, the flock is without a shepard.

This man is doing great harm to the church causing scandal and confusion at every opportunity. He is a Marxist following the heretical liberation theology that rose up in Latin America post VII.

It is hard to be joyful and filled with hope at times, have to remind myself that in the end we win.

Blogger Chent August 01, 2016 8:22 AM  

@Alexandros

Cardinal Suenens exclaimed “Vatican II is the French Revolution in the Church”. Yves Congar declared “The Church has had, peacefully, its October Revolution.”

I think this is extremely insightful because of three reasons:

1) Vatican II was the change of the traditional Catholic doctrine to fit into the Enlightenment religion that was the basis of French revolution (creating a syncretistic religion, the way many of our Protestant brothers had done longtime ago)

2) Like the French Revolution, Vatican II was a revolution of a leftist minority against the majority and the previous authority

3) Vatican II and French Revolution created the same groups:

a) Reactionaries, those that thought that the Revolution was a mistake and strove to go back to the traditional regime.

b) Conservatives, they embrace the revolution but they want to avoid its worst aspects. They want to preserve some kind of continuity with the past. They use unprincipled exceptions to do that (http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/005864.html)

c) Liberals/progressive. They want to bring the revolution to its ultimate consequences but removing all the unprincipled exceptions.

I am from Spain. In Spain, most old Catholics are conservative and most young Catholics are progressive. Yesterday, a friend of my sister was "married" to her lesbian partner by a "progressive" priest. My sister was exultant: "Such a brave priest!".

I live in Latin America, where most Catholics are conservative.

Reactionaries are a very tiny collective. I am a reactionary or a conservative with reactionary tendencies.

Benedict XVI was a conservative. He was very supportive of Vatican II, but he eventually mellowed and broke with the progressive wing, becoming a conservative, This way it was cheered by conservatives and rejected by progressives and reactionaries. For me, it is a man of really deep erudition, maybe the most intelligent and learned Pope we have had ever. And he means well but he doesn't realize that being conservative is an untenable position and today's progressive will be tomorrow's conservative.

Francis is a scoundrel cheered by progressives and rejected by reactionaries. Conservative tend to interpret their words in a way consistent with traditional Catholic doctrine, even if this means using really weird logic.

I disagree (I have had personal debates with them) but I understand. Unlike with progressives and reactionaries, there is a strong psychological barrier for Conservative Catholics to criticize the Pope, which causes them a significant psychological distress. So it is better to let the rationalization hamster get wild. They are good sheep with an evil shepherd that plays them like a fiddle.

Blogger EasyCompany August 01, 2016 8:28 AM  

I am a Traditionist Catholic and am part of the Society of Pope Pius X.

We still practice the Faith and the Mass in all the glory of the pre-Vatican II mess.

What I think of Pope Francis is best done by a article written by Bishop Fellay of the SSPX:

Pope Francis, a genuine Modernist!

Extracts of Bishop Fellay's sermon

He [Bishop Fellay] amplified a few points regarding Fatima, the Secret, the 2012 SSPX relations with Rome, and then spoke of some of the many grave problems with Pope Francis.

From the start, we have the impression that we have something wrong with this pope. From the start, he wanted to distinguish himself to be different from anybody else."

We must look, said the bishop, at what is his vision of the Church, his vision of the council, and what is his plan.

It was around the time of World Youth Day, late July of this year, that Francis began an avalanche of talks, interviews, phone calls, etc.

We may not have the entire picture at this point, we have enough to be scared to death."

Contradictory statements of the pope
Bishop Fellay gave the example of one of these contradictions:

He spoke of interview in early October that Pope Francis conducted with the atheist journalist Eugenio Scalfari in Rome’s La Repubblica wherein Francis appears to promote a dangerous relativism:

Scalfari: Your Holiness, is there is a single vision of the Good? And who decides what it is?

Pope Francis: Each of us has a vision of good and of evil. We have to encourage people to move towards what they think is Good.

Scalfari: Your Holiness, you wrote that in your letter to me. The conscience is autonomous, you said, and everyone must obey his conscience. I think that's one of the most courageous steps taken by a pope.

Pope Francis: And I repeat it here. Everyone has his own idea of good and evil and must choose to follow the good and fight evil as he conceives them. That would be enough to make the world a better place."

With a good deal of emotion, Bishop Fellay said of the pope’s response:

That’s really not Catholic! Because whatever I think has absolutely no value if it does not fit with reality. The first reality is God!... God is the unique goodness and the reference for everything which is good!..."

We have a conscience, but it will only lead us to Heaven if our conscience is a mirror of God. The conscience must be formed according to God’s law. "So to pretend that anyone can follow his own idea is just rubbish,” said Fellay, “It has nothing to do with Catholic teaching. It is absolute relativism."

Few days after this, however, Pope Francis spoke of the necessity of fighting the devil, the final battle with the devil, that nobody can fight the devil half way, and that we must fight relativism. Francis said the opposite what he said to La Repubblica. “He said the contrary of what he just said!”

Please read the rest hear and listen to the whole sermon.

http://sspx.org/en/node/2599

PLEASE HEAR ME MY LAPSED BROTHERS!

I am truly sadden by your having forsaken the Church and the Mass! Please, please reconsider what you are doing to yourselves!

You are placing your soul, and those of your family, in the Devil's hands! Do you think that by forsaken Christ (refusing to go to Mass and part take of Holy Communion) you are really showing the Church what for???

Do you think the corruptors of the Faith want you in those pews and not at home watching TV?

Who do think is laughing at you when you say that?

Who do you think is crying for you?

Please, please come back!

If you cannot stand the wishy-washy modern church, look for a Latin Mass church. They are everywhere.

Start hear and look around the web for sites that show where they are!

http://sspx.org/en

And if you just can't return to the Catholic Faith, don't turn to the Protestants, but look to the Orthodox Church!

They are our lost brothers.

Pleas for the love of God, come back!

Anonymous Trigger Warning August 01, 2016 8:29 AM  

Where are the Borgias when you need them?

Anonymous The Ramones August 01, 2016 8:30 AM  

I'm a Catholic. This pope is an insane, wicked idiot. It's kind of hard to be both wicked AND an idiot (it's usually one or the other), but both Bush and Obama managed it, why not Francis? Cum malleus maleficorum capitam suam clobberenda est. It really IS clobberin' time.

I don't recall Jesus saying, If he asks for your cloak, give him your children's future, and your daughters' [redacted]. If you give to the needy something which is not yours to give, that's not charity, it's theft.

Blogger Popa August 01, 2016 8:31 AM  

Perhaps he is the black pope. He is, at least, very unfortunate in his public opinions.

Mister Doom (#8), I know most of southern catholicism is heavily influenced by leftism, but there is hope: see http://heralds.blog.arautos.org/worlwide/

The church in the background is in Brazil, and is not 10 years old.

Anonymous CC August 01, 2016 8:32 AM  

I saw this a while ago, top 50 most influential Jews in America and Pope Francis and Angelina Jolie were given honourary status in the "plus" category.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/11/forward-50-jews-pope-francis_n_4254738.html

On it's face that, doesn't seem to make much sense to me, how can a pope be considered Jewish in any way? But maybe the phrase "is the Pope Catholic?" doesn't make powerful rhetoric any more.

Blogger Cail Corishev August 01, 2016 8:37 AM  

Francis is the embodiment of Vatican II. He preaches the Modernist heresies of Vatican II stripped bare, without any of the pretensions to traditional Catholic teaching that his predecessors wrapped them in. To put it in terms often used here, he's like the SJWs who now control organizations like the SFWA: they're not willing to hold back and just lean left anymore; they're reveling in their power to drive left at top speed.

For this reason, he's necessary. As long as we had men on the throne like John Paul II and Benedict who dressed up the new religion of Vatican II in Catholic-ish vestments, it wasn't easy to see the break without considerable study. Francis makes that break as clear as it could be, short of his coming out on the balcony and saying, "Jesus is not God." (And if he did that, some would still say we was misinterpreted.) Francis is waking people up to the fact that the problem goes deeper than just some overly enthusiastic concessions to modernity like Communion in the hand and girls serving at the altar.

As a Modernist, he is a naturalist and an indifferentist: he believes that all religions are valid and an aid to salvation (yes, this is non-Catholic, not to mention non-First-Commandment), and he's entirely focused on the material world. He says Jesus is our buddy and will save us as long as we do our best, and incorrigible sinners (if any exist) will be annihiliated rather than go to Hell (yes, really), so Francis isn't worried about our souls. He's worried about our bellies and our feelings. Since he can't distinguish between good belief systems and bad, he ascribes any violence to worldly causes such as poverty and discrimination. He really does believe that Muslims who kill Christians are lashing out against earthly mistreatment, not carrying out the wishes of their demonic religion.

Whether Francis is an apostate pope or an imposter to the throne is a somewhat complicated theological issue that took me a few years to work through, so reasonable people of good faith can differ on that. In either case, he is making it clear that he and the heresies of Vatican II which produced him are not Catholic and must be rejected entirely. They can't be "interpreted in the light of Tradition" as so many Catholics were hoping Benedict would do. The only way to return to the Catholic faith is to scrap him and them completely.

Blogger c0pperheaded August 01, 2016 8:37 AM  

I'm a Catholic in the US. Unfortunately, most Catholics I know don't give two shits about what the Pope says. I think this has a lot to do with the past three Popes: Hippie Pope, Nazi Pope, Commie Pope. It would be nice to have a Pope that defended Catholicism and talked about Jesus instead of communism.

Blogger Mad Dok Rob August 01, 2016 8:41 AM  

Alexandros wrote:Orthodox here: I'm more interested in what the Roman Catholics feel about the pope emeritus. We on the Eastern side of things loved that guy. Was he popular on the RC side as well?

Alexandros,

Personally, I loved Pope Benedict. Very saddened by the "retirement". I think the bride of Christ would be much better off if he was still Pope.

Blogger James Dixon August 01, 2016 8:42 AM  

Well, the only thing I can say on the subject is to repeat the comment of my wife's Episcolpalian grandmother: "Roman Catholic, dear. I'm as Catholic as they are." Not being Roman Catholic, I have no basis for an opinion one way or the other.

Blogger James Dixon August 01, 2016 8:47 AM  

> The Church will survive.

Of course. It is His church, not ours. He will not abandon it.

Blogger Ragin' Dave August 01, 2016 8:49 AM  

Traditional Catholic here. Grew up in the Novus Ordo, moved to the traditional Latin Mass several years ago.

Francis is profoundly stupid, profoundly egotistical and narcissistic, surrounds himself with the most "progressive" members of the Vatican (the homosexualists, the sodomites, the kiddy-diddlers), and preaches more based on his Marxist ideology than he does his Catholic theology.

In short, Francis is the crowning achievement of the Second Vatican Council. The new "modern" church for the new "modern" man, none of whom believe a damn bit of what they profess.

Is he the worst pope we've ever had? No, not by a long shot. But he's the worst pope in this current age.

@27 - there currently is a "schism" in the Church: Sedevecantism. People who believe that the current papal seat is empty, and has been empty since the death of Pope Pius VII in 1958. These people don't reject the Catholic Church, they reject the Second Vatican Council.

Anonymous johnc August 01, 2016 8:49 AM  

@48 Orthodox here: I'm more interested in what the Roman Catholics feel about the pope emeritus. We on the Eastern side of things loved that guy. Was he popular on the RC side as well?

It's a mixed bag. Good Catholics generally liked the guy. Catholics who aren't Catholic -- which is most of the "Church" -- didn't really like the guy because he was what is called "conservative", whatever that means. Most of the first-world bishops didn't like the guy because they are left wing nuts, and Benedict also tried to make the Church more hospitable for its more traditional members. His resignation and current status are peculiar and raise many questions. What seems apparent is that the internal strife boiled over and led to him stepping down. Some believe he is still the pope. Personally, I don't.

@VD: I visit many of the good, serious Catholic blogs out there about as faithfully as I visit this one. And it seems the more serious the Catholic, the more they do not like this pope, and say it plainly. Since the outsiders only see the bigger headlines, I think they don't realize just how bad Francis is. The guy is clearly a heretic -- probably not even Christian -- and this position is becoming more accepted amongst the faithful. History will place him with the Borgia popes or worse. He is clearly the pope of our punishment, and we're quite terrified to see who will be the next one.

I think most good Catholics are just trying to piece things together and find meaning, because none of us or our ancestors of memory have ever lived through something like this. So outside of the history books, it's uncharted territory.

Anonymous Ellipsis Lacuna August 01, 2016 8:49 AM  

I wonder if it's possible for Benedict to come out of retirement?

Blogger Jamie-R August 01, 2016 8:49 AM  

Catholics had to choose between the strictness & separation from the modern world of Benedict vs the humanistic touches of John Paul II without the hardline against communism because it has only grown in the West Post-Soviet Era. They wanted outreach, but it was suicide. Benedict was fighting a battle inside the church that is ready to cede to the world, at least at the symbolic Pope level. Because the West is dying & communication is failing.

Blogger Alexandros August 01, 2016 8:50 AM  

Do Roman Catholics have warrior saints like Eastern Orthodox do? If so, has Francis ever commented on them?

Anonymous johnc August 01, 2016 8:55 AM  

@Ragin' Dave

Francis has forced me to take a hard look at some of the modern sacred cows in the Church. I.e., the Second Vatican Council and this New Mass. When you actually do the research you find a complete trainwreck indeed.

I go to the Traditional Latin Mass now as well. It is the Mass of our ancestors going back at least over a thousand years. And to think they thought they could suppress it and take away what was rightfully ours. In some ways, Francis opened my eyes... and the eyes of many, many Catholics.

Blogger IreneAthena August 01, 2016 8:56 AM  

People may judge you to be dreamers, because you believe in a new humanity, one that rejects hatred between peoples, one that refuses to see borders as barriers and can cherish its own traditions without being self-centered or small-minded...

Sounds like the guy is riffing on the Sermon on the Mount. Even the weird "new humanity" bit evokes Mt 5:5 "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth."

Blogger rumpole5 August 01, 2016 8:58 AM  

There IS a solution to the locusts devouring our Christian culture:

2 Chronicles 7:14
“If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.”

Less time whining and more time on knees in confession, thanks, and praise, my friends.

Blogger Alexandros August 01, 2016 8:59 AM  

I've very glad that the Roman Catholics who are upset with Francis generally think highly of Benedict; I feel like I can understand them just a bit better as a result. It does make the current situation with Francis all the more sad though. Francis has made attempts at reconciliation all but impossible.

Anonymous Ellipsis Lacuna August 01, 2016 9:01 AM  

Let's not forget Hillary's VP is deep into Jesuitism.

Kaine attended Rockhurst High School, an all-boys Jesuit high school, where he joined spring mission drives to fund Jesuit activities in Honduras.

Kaine took a year off from law school to volunteer with Jesuit missionaries in Honduras, where he ran a small vocational school for teenage boys while honing his Spanish. It was an eye-opening experience for the Midwesterner, who witnessed the devastating effects of poverty up close, and ignited his longstanding commitment to social justice.

OpenID paworldandtimes August 01, 2016 9:03 AM  

"Sounds like the guy is riffing on the Sermon on the Mount."

To me it sounded more like a riff on Lennon's 'Imagine.'

PA

Blogger Cail Corishev August 01, 2016 9:03 AM  

Francis for me is...well strange. He is rock solid on some things (tradional marriage, infanticide, basically all moral teachings),

You've gotta be kidding. Amoris Laetitia says people living in "non-traditional arrangements," which means anyone shacking up or committing adultery and doesn't rule out homosexuals, may have some of the elements of marriage as long as the relationship is sustained over time and they love each other. He stuck a knife in marriage with his drive-through annulments, and yanked it out through the other side with this document.

Officially he's against abortion -- he's gotta be, because he's the pope, right? -- but somehow he rarely mentions it. During the Planned Parenthood baby-parts-selling scandal, when the abortionists were reeling and ripe for a knockout punch, he went to Congress and talked about pollution and poverty. If he were secretly in favor of abortion and just realized he couldn't say so without causing a revolt, you'd have a hard time telling the difference.

Anonymous Bowman August 01, 2016 9:03 AM  

A movement which is not explicitly anti-left always become leftist ...

Anonymous JC NRA August 01, 2016 9:04 AM  

Raised Catholic, married a Catholic, kids in Catholic school.

But I sure don't feel Catholic: this pope is a piece of shit.

What makes me truly sick is not that a clear employee of the Deceiver is at the helm (we've collectively brought this upon ourselves) - but how blindly the so-called "Catholics" around me defend him. It's worse than somebody defending BHO because we have to "respect the office of President" - because at least Bath House Barry isn't directly responsible for sending souls to hell.

Blogger synp August 01, 2016 9:06 AM  

stress management wrote:Not Catholic, but sympathetic to their problems with this false shepherd, as we have had to endure our pastor preaching that Nehemiah rebuilt "a wall of acceptance and love".

Say, what? Tell me more...

Blogger dc.sunsets August 01, 2016 9:07 AM  

Raised "High Church Episcopal" here.

I thought the only differences between my upbringing & Roman Catholicism were:
1) we didn’t believe in intercession by the saints (so we didn't pray to them.)
2) we didn’t believe that the Pope was literally God's voice on Earth (in the same way bread & wine was transsubstantiated into the body & blood of Christ, which we did believe.)

Isn't seeing the Pope as a miguided man for all practical purposes heresy for a Roman Catholic?

Blogger Chent August 01, 2016 9:08 AM  

@johnc

"I think most good Catholics are just trying to piece things together and find meaning, because none of us or our ancestors of memory have ever lived through something like this. So outside of the history books, it's uncharted territory."

This can't be stressed strongly enough. As a Catholics, we are not prepared to deal with the apostasy of the Pope and the abandonment of traditional Catholic doctrine.

For the ones of us who are aware (most Catholics are blissfully ignorant) is a challenge our ancestors never gave us the tools to deal with. Different ways have been proposed: sedevacantism, "be aware and resist", "ignore and focus on the Sacraments". Besides praying, there is no consensus about what to do in the reactionary camp.

This age is painful for the Catholic that is aware.

Anonymous Credo in Unum Deum August 01, 2016 9:11 AM  

I am a Catholic Convert. I came into full communion with The Catholic Church at the Easter Vigil in 2010.

The main reason: It is the Church Founded by Jesus.

I also like the traditions of the Catholic Church. I LOVE the Extraordinary Form (Latin) of Mass, I go to it almost exclusively. I have studied it extensively, and I know what's going on, the history behind all the moves within it and their meanings, and I enjoy the experience of that form of the Mass. I also love the Dominican Rite of the mass, I've been to two of those. I eventually want to attend a Byzantine Rite, Melkite Rite, and a Coptic Rite.

The Extraordinary form of the Mass, if the numbers hold, will be the ONLY form of the Mass in about 40-60 years. At one Mass I attended they asked for volunteers for Altar Servers for the other Masses, and they also asked if anyone wanted to do the Altar Boys' laundry for the Latin Mass, as they had about 10-13 Altar Boys for the Latin Mass every week. The numbers are not there for the future of the Ordinary Form of the Mass. Most of the kids who are "Confirmed" in the Ordinary Form of the Mass, in just 10 years, leave the Church, they just walk out the door, and never come back.

Unfortunately, I joined what I thought was the Church of the Crusades, and I got the Care Bear Church...

The Catechesis (teaching) in the Church is Pathetic. Sit in almost ANY RCIA class, and you'll understand what I mean. You have to experience it to understand it.

I am a total Outlier in the Catholic Church. I own multiple copies of The Bible. Vulgate, Greek New Testament, and Septuagint, and I'm working on my Biblical Hebrew. I own and have read the Catechism as well, it isn't that hard. I also own, and read the "Summa Theologica" in both Latin and English. Also... In Latin/Greek and English: Collection of the Apostolic Fathers, St. Bede, St. Augustine, St. Jerome, St. Basil, Eusebius, Tertullian to name just a few.

The church today is riding on the momentum from the Industrial revolution like a lot of things today. It is DONE in Europe. In Germany alone, for every ONE person who comes into the Church, 90,000 LEAVE. If the Church in Germany wasn't sitting on several billion dollars, they would've closed their doors years ago...

I would say that at least 99% of Catholics aren't Catholic. They are Universalists, they just don't know it. They have NEVER opened up a Bible. If you told them, please open up up to the Letter to the Romans, most won't know where to look in the Bible. They won't even know that it's closer to the back of the Bible...

The current Pope is the Pope the current Church deserves. He will be the worst Pope in history. He is a pathological narcissist. He is selling out the Body of Christ, along with everyone else in Europe in order to feel good about himself. I am all for helping the poor, but I don't support letting in an entire army of muhammadins!!

It isn't just this Pope though, the Bishops have to take some of the blame as well. The Archbishop of Cologne did some God-Awful virtue signaling recently on the Feast of Corpus Christi...

http://gatesofvienna.net/2016/05/the-dhimmi-archbishop-of-cologne-is-at-it-again/

THAT ISN'T rare in the Church today! That is par for the course!

The Church has problems! The Church in America made nearly 80 million dollars from the US Government from "refugee resettlement" (Pretty much all the Major Churches in America are guilty of that BTW...) That's just the tip of the iceberg... Obama giving a speech at Notre Dame college. The major financial and sex scandal coming out of the Diocese of New York, the list goes on and on and on.


For his total lack of leadership, and for encouraging hundreds of thousands of muhammadin fighters to just walk into Europe, this Pope will be considered the WORST Pope in History.

Blogger Chent August 01, 2016 9:12 AM  

No, because the Pope is infallible only when speaking ex cathedra. The last time was about 1950.

But it's really disturbing, like watching the leader of Jews making praising nazi ideolody during World War II

Blogger darrenl August 01, 2016 9:14 AM  

Catholic here.

I'm not concerned about any off the cuff comments of any Pope because he is not protected from error in those cases. I'm no more concerned about his opinions of Islam or immigration than of his opinions on baseball.

The Church was promised protection from error a long time ago by someone infinitely wiser than I, so I leave it in His hands.

There have been, and will be bad Popes. Is Francis one of them? Maybe. The Church plays the long game so most likely none of us will be around to find out.

Blogger pyrrhus August 01, 2016 9:17 AM  

Francis is a Peronista globalist who was elected by pedophiles in the Vatican. The good news is that he's not very bright....

Blogger SemiSpook37 August 01, 2016 9:18 AM  

Not to belabor the point, but I'm with the multitude of my fellow traditionalists here. What we're seeing from Papa Bergolio is what you get from someone who grew up under Peronist influence and then doubled-down on the insanity with formation under the modernist segment of the Jesuit order.

I was rather shocked at the April 2005 Conclave that elevated Ratzinger to become Benedict XVI, and found his approach towards things rather refreshing, especially since he had been around the block, so to speak, in all of the major circles of influence. There was a reason he was placed as the Grand Inquisitor/Prefect for the Congregation of Divine Faith, and while many traditionalists abhorred his tenure there, it was vital to keeping things afloat.

The rumors surrounding the 2005 Conclave say that Bergolio was definitely in the running for elevation, so his elevation in 2013 wasn't so much of a surprise. What IS surprising is his approach to the Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) within the last 18 months.

For those of you that are unfamiliar with them, they're a canonically irregular traditionalist order that was driven out by the modernist factions within Rome back in the 70s/80s. What drove that particular nail in the coffin was Archbishop Marcel Lefevbre's decision to elevate four priests as bishops under his claim of emergency with regards to the defense of the Faith. This action caused the Archbishop and those newly consecrated bishops to be considered excommunicated from the Faith. Benedict XVI, at the time, considered it a horrible consequence of the situation.

And then he lifted the excommunications in 2009. I suspect that was the beginning of the end of his pontificate, because the "Spirit" of Vatican II went full court press on him, ultimately enabling Bergolio to be elevated.

As I said, it is rather odd that Bergolio is pushing to regularize the SSPX, but then again, they did work together while he was Archbishop of Buenos Aires in Argentina, and felt that the order was capable of much good. It appears that the offer reportedly presented to and accepted by Bishop Bernard Fellay, current leader of the SSPX, will allow for the SSPX to be stood up as a personal prelature of the Church, much like Opus Dei. Word on the street is that there are some doctrinal issues to be ironed out (pertaining to the SSPX's stance on Vatican II), but my suspicion is that they'll "accept" it just to get everyone to be happy, and then promptly ignore it in practice.

That ignorance, oddly enough, is what all of us as Catholics should follow, if that's the case.

"I see your point, but as it's likely to lead souls to ruin, I think we're better off doing what needs to be done to save souls rather than trying to fit a construct that's already set up against us."

Blogger Cail Corishev August 01, 2016 9:20 AM  

Do Roman Catholics have warrior saints like Eastern Orthodox do? If so, has Francis ever commented on them?

Yes. No, unless it was to say they were wrong and we don't do that kind of thing anymore.

Francis comments as little as possible on anything that is recognizably Catholic. As a Modernist of Vatican II, he wants to remove everything from Catholicism that makes it unpalatable to people of other faiths (especially (((one))), but ultimately all of them). So you'll rarely hear him talk about saints other than John Paul II or Mother Teresa, the Virgin Mary, the rosary, other traditional devotions, grace, apparitions, popes or papal documents prior to 1962, Crusades, indulgences (yes, they still exist), Confession, Hell, Purgatory, etc. He doesn't genuflect to the Blessed Sacrament, and if he talks about the Eucharist, it's only in the most naturalistic, "communion meal" terms.

If you can look at it and say, "That's Catholic," he's not into it.

Blogger tz August 01, 2016 9:20 AM  

The Peronista Pope.

1. The holy spirit knows what he is doing. And it might be chastisement.
2. The office does not give wisdom.
3. Francis (I keep thinking the Talking Mule from the 1950's) is heavy on mercy. This is the year of mercy and I walked through one of the holy doors yesterday.
4. It extends to SSPX and his very liberalism might end the schism on the right.
5. The Islamic attacks except the most recent have not been directed at Christians, only America and Europe. When was the last one in Argentina?

In sum, the office was never designed to be political, and war is the extension of politics. Frances can't see evil in tne nice Imams that have come to the Vatican.

But I can explain it to every Christian here easily.

How many have Muslims killed in the EU and the US over how many years?

How many have those doctors dressed in nice suits and driving nice cars killed in Abortion clinics? 60 million here.

Few even mention the holocaust in our midst that slaughters a million babies each year in a gruesome manner. You don't see it. You don't think about it. You. Don't. Care.

Years ago I predicted that Terrorism would increase to the point of Abortion as a chastisement. We're on our way. We can either accept Terrorism or stop Abortion.

Being deaf and blind to a holocaust for 40 years - including Catholics - in blood up to your necks - you aren't in a position to examine the Pope.

Don't think of them as Muslim terrorists, think of them as retroactive abortionists.

Also remember Lincoln's war if you doubt God judges nations for their sins. The stain of slavery took the blood of 600,000 to wash away - 7 million in today's population.

Innocent blood cries out for justice. Pope Frances means the cry has been heard. But so might Hillary.

Anonymous Rob August 01, 2016 9:21 AM  

Practicing Catholic here. Just this last weekend I was looking for SSPX chapels in the area. Since there were none, I started looking for Orthodox Churches. I am definitely thinking about converting to Greek Orthodox.

I don't expect the Pope to call for a new crusade, but at the very least he should have declared Fr. Hamal a martyr. Instead he says he's "just another casualty" in a war that has "nothing to do with religion."

If his pontificate is as long as JPII, there is a good chance the whole US church will break away.

Blogger Chent August 01, 2016 9:23 AM  

This is the position I labelled "ignore and focus on the sacraments"

Blogger darrenl August 01, 2016 9:28 AM  

I'm equally unimpressed with your labels...but thanks for sharing.

Blogger Cail Corishev August 01, 2016 9:30 AM  

John C. Wright has written several times about the leftist press misquoting Francis

They did some of that in the beginning, but they soon learned that it wasn't necessary. Get on a plane with the man and stick a microphone in his face, and you'll get all the embarrassing anti-Catholic nonsense you can handle.

Also, at some point, if you're being misquoted, it's on you to fix it -- stop giving interviews to those who misquote you, and use your massive pulpit to correct the misquotes. This guy gives interviews to his atheist friend who's known for paraphrasing, and people use that to excuse his heresies: "Well, we don't know that he said exactly that." Hey, he hasn't said he was misquoted, and he went back to the guy more than once, so we have to assume he was happy with the results. And why are so many of his long-time friends and collaborators atheists and Jews anyway?

He's not Catholic. That's all.

Anonymous SeriousBrah August 01, 2016 9:30 AM  

Practicing Middle-Eastern Catholic here (Latin Mass attendee to boot). When I was younger I thought the vision of the Vatican getting invaded and the Pope getting shot would not happen in our lifetime (The third secret of Fatima). These days I believe it needs to happen, and especially with this Pope.

As Christ has suffered and died, his Bride will endure the same before rising again.

Blogger Alexandros August 01, 2016 9:31 AM  

@97

I am definitely thinking about converting to Greek Orthodox

I assume you're in America and so I caution against specifically the Greek Orthodox church. The Greek Orthodox Church in America is filled with literal heresy that gets people excommunicated. While we excommunicate many, many priests, the fact remains that we even need to do this means the corruption is widespread.

The actual Greek Orthodox Church in Greece is absolutely fine, but, for now, stay away from the Greek church in America while we clean house.

I recommend researching the Orthodox Church in America (OCA) parishes first. It's all the same church, but the OCA was established by the Russians who made sure that they put mechanisms in place so that it didn't end up like how the Greek church in America is now. The siren's call of modernism is strong in America, but the Russians have a great motto which helps combats its spread:

"If it's not hard, it's not holy."

Blogger Abyssus Invocat August 01, 2016 9:33 AM  

I am a religious, observant Catholic. Holy Mother Church, as VD observed, survived the Borgias and the Anti-popes. And I might add the Roman Empire, the Huns, the French Terror, Bonaparte, Hitler and the Soviet Union. She'll be here long after Isis and the rest of Islam are ashes and dust and tales to scare children.

The Pope does babble on when he ought not. And as a Catholic, I and many others are disappointed that he has not been more forthright in the defense of Christians and Christiandom. I for one would love to see him demand that the West defend the Christians of the Middle East by arms, and if they refuse to do so, call for a Crusade.

All that said, he is not speaking ex cathedra and so Catholics are free to respectfully disagree. Christ promised Christians that the gates of hell would not prevail against His church. And so it will be.

Anonymous Redbane August 01, 2016 9:35 AM  

To understand what is happening within the RC Church, and the world at large in these times, one must know about the 1917 messages of Fatima, more correctly described as the 'Prophecies of Fatima' The place name is significant. 2017, the 100 year anniversary is likely going to be a year of tumult that the world has not yet seen before. These divine locutions stated that the rot in the RC Church 'would start at the top' .These are not the only historically recent prophecies to describe the fall and later rise of Catholicism.Fatima predated the Oktober Revolution, but stated that 'Russia would spread her errors throughout the entire world'

Blogger Leo Little Book in Shenzhen August 01, 2016 9:37 AM  

Neo-Babelism is apt.

Christianity does not teach to love everyone, but "one another", meaning other Christians.

The only difference between Protestant and Catholic Progressive churchianism is that the Catholic is more centralized.

Blogger Chent August 01, 2016 9:40 AM  

My labels are not good and I don't care that you are unimpressed. Maybe someone can make up something better.

Besides the labels, people who reject the current Pope have three strategies:

1) Yours. Since you have explained above, no need to repeat.Ignore Bergoglio and go on with your Catholic life.

b) Resist Bergoglio while claiming he is the Pope. A lousy Pope but the Pope. For example, Richard Ferrara

c) Bergoglio is not the Pope. The chair of Sant Peter is empty. Sedevacantism.

I am not writing for you, since you should know this, but for non-Catholics that don't know these things.

Anonymous Niall August 01, 2016 9:40 AM  

My wife is a devout Catholic. She and her friends believe that the leadership of the demented Francis, much like the era of clerical-abuse scandals, is a time of trial and purification for the Church which only the faithful will be able to endure. She entirely expects (as do I) that Francis -- should his life continue to be spared by God -- will try to dismantle the current structure of the Church and try to shepherd the faithful into joining an ecumenical one-world religion which will be a pillar of the incipient one-world government. She takes some consolation, however, in the thought that by a technical interpretation of Canon Law Benedict XVI is still the Pope.

Ultimately, faithful Catholics believe in the unshakeability of core doctrine and in the efficacy of the Sacraments, things no human being can change; but on a political and social level, of course, they recognize that things are going to get very much worse before they get any better.

Blogger John Regan August 01, 2016 9:40 AM  

I don't think Francis matters very much. I read an article recently that pointed out, rightly I think, that you can't conceive of the pope as this dictator who can snap his fingers and change everything, one way or the other.

There are lots of bishops. He can't wholesale get rid of them all, even if he wanted to, which Francis probably doesn't.

There are some who believe that we haven't had a real, non-heretical pope since Pius XII died in 1958. Maybe. Again, it doesn't matter much.

What matters, it seems to me, is that you have the SSPX, the SSPV, and young and vital Latin Mass movement in various places. The long term outlook is hopeful. The 60's generation is dying off.

It's not that different from the wider culture. Destruction is easy and dramatic; rebuilding is painstaking and requires discipline and patience.

Blogger Alexandros August 01, 2016 9:43 AM  

One other thing on those Roman Catholics who are upset and want a traditional mass: You may wish to consider the Byzantine Catholic (eastern rite) churches.

As an Orthodox Christian, I can attest that it's virtually the exact same experience walking into a Byzantine Catholic mass as you'd get walking into an Orthodox liturgy.

They have retained communion with Rome since way back, so you would not be leaving the Roman Catholic church at all.

Blogger Student in Blue August 01, 2016 9:44 AM  

@Credo in Unum Deum
I would say that at least 99% of Catholics aren't Catholic. They are Universalists, they just don't know it. They have NEVER opened up a Bible. If you told them, please open up up to the Letter to the Romans, most won't know where to look in the Bible. They won't even know that it's closer to the back of the Bible...

Sadly, that's applicable to every denomination in today's world.

Blogger Beefy Levinson August 01, 2016 9:44 AM  

I'm a Catholic convert, baptized and confirmed in 2005. Like most converts, I was accused by some cradle Catholics of trying to be "more Catholic than the pope." Today that sounds less like a joke and more like a compliment.

I don't know what it is about airplanes, but Pope Francis has mostly been an embarrassment every time he opens his mouth. It's generally a bad thing whenever people who hate everything the Church stands for are lauding a Catholic clergyman. Everyone loves Pope John Paul II now that he's gone on to his eternal reward, but during his reign the media and liberal Catholic Churchians hated his guts, which is as it should be.

With Francis, it's obvious he disdains anything that smacks of pre-Vatican II Catholicism. He reserves all of his harsh words for more Tradition leaning Catholics. I think he dearly wishes he could liberalize the Church even more, but he knows he can't make a direct frontal assault on doctrine. Instead he tries to make discipline so lax as to make doctrine almost nonexistent in practice (see the disastrous Synod on the Family from last year.)

But my faith isn't in the pope; it's in Jesus Christ. We've had bad popes before and we will have more right up until the Second Coming. Many saints lived and died blissfully unaware of the goings on in Rome during their time on earth. If nothing else, Francis is making serious Catholics think about the nature and the extent of the papacy's authority.

Blogger tublecane August 01, 2016 9:50 AM  

I was raised Catholic, though I'm not a believer and I don't participate in the Church. The hierarchy was "converged," as you put it, but the 60s. The laity has largely been converged or cowed, though some of it hangs on. This Pope is a couple steps further to the left, and I fear secretly a few steps more than we know.

But maybe my perception of him is colored by his predecessor, who was a Warren Harding sort of retrogressive figure. Francis seems worse than he is by comparison? Or maybe not.

Blogger Murray August 01, 2016 9:53 AM  

Some excellent, excellent comments from Catholics here. Well done, good and faithful servants!

Atheist convert to Catholicism here. One point I'd add is that the authority of the pope is much more constrained than many moderns think.

The First Vatican Council sums it up well (my emphasis):

For the Holy Spirit was promised to the successors of Peter not so that they might, by his revelation, make known some new doctrine, but that, by his assistance, they might religiously guard and faithfully expound the revelation or deposit of faith transmitted by the apostles.

Religiously guard and faithfully expound the deposit of faith. The pope's role is fundamentally conservative. He's not an oracle or God's mouthpiece, and he's certainly not empowered to innovate or announce a new gospel, as this pope comes perilously close to doing. His role is to preserve and expound the faith as it has been handed down from the Apostles.

But as others here have pointed out, the role of the papacy has become artificially inflated in the age of mass media, to the point that we now have personality cults developing around each occupant of the Chair of Peter, with all his utterances treated as if they come from God himself. In addition, orthodox Catholics have grown accustomed to viewing the papacy as a bulwark of stability in the midst of a largely apostate hierarchy.

So what do we do? We take the long view. Pray, practice traditional devotions, attend the most reverent Mass we can find, call out errors even when they come direct from the mouth of the pope, hunker down and wait things out. It may be decades or even centuries before the Church is restored, but that's in God's hands. We just have to remain faithful.

Anonymous NateM August 01, 2016 9:56 AM  

Raised catholic, attended mass every week growing up, with rare exceptions, but more recently haven't attended very often. And I my parents were Very serious Catholics, more than just the suburban "Get it out of the way on saturday night, then forget about it" types, so not just claiming status as a catholic based on putting in the time here.

As I said I haven't attended mass regularly lately, even predating this pope, but all his antics have actually made me consider conversion. I mean I wasn't actively involved, but it gave me the urge to get involved in a completely different church. That's how annoyed Social Justice Pope has made me. Granted I was thinking something closely related to Catholicism, like the Orthodox church, not completely jumping over to the dark side and becoming Lutheran or something (Wink). I mean the last time I encountered a Catholic movement that was THIS Social Justice minded was in college, attending the Newman Center that was presided over by Paulist priests. These were the types I THOUGHT were about as extreme as you could get, with Homilies about the Suffragettes peppered with guilt appeals to make the overwhelmingly white middle class crowd feel bad if they didn't support causes of social justice. One day I just got up during about the 4th straight week of that bullshit and just left. Now it appears the SJP is insistent on bringing that brand of Catholicism everywhere. Gee, wonder how that's going to work out. If anything I see a lot more influence in the Greek and Russian Orthodox churches when many traditional minded Catholics make the leap over. (INB4 Putin Controlled the Pope for his own gain)

Anonymous ZhukovG August 01, 2016 9:56 AM  

With John Paul II we had the Alpha, Rock Star.

With Benedict we had the Sigma, Intellectual.

With Francis we have a 'nice' Delta that is totally out of his f'ing depth.

But, incompetence, however profound, does not equal heresy.

Blogger Thomas Henderson August 01, 2016 9:56 AM  

Poor Jorge is confused. Perhaps he listened too much to John Lennon in his younger days. Or took Fukuyama too seriously when he announced the end of history.

The current international elite genuinely believe in a "pax liberalis seculaerum via ordo technocratus", a secular liberal peace by way of technocratic order or control. The pope is merely aligning the Vatican to this worldly vision, the triumph of progressive revolution to bring peace and freedom to everybody.

The problem is that the peace of Christ is not compatible with the liberal secular peace. Jesus came not to bring peace but the sword where the possibility always exists for divisions among people even among family members. The kiss of peace at an Orthodox liturgy or the peace of Christ exchanged at the Catholic Mass is only possible after the reconciliation of the sinner with God and his neighbour. Reconciliation requires the humility to understand one's limitations in trying to seek and achieve the good. Liberalism assumes the individal person to be good a priori and has a hard time accepting any limitations on his freedom.

Jesus also made it clear that his kingdom was not of this world. The kingdom of God is only achievable through atonement, i.e. through the children of God - the ones born not of the flesh nor of the will of Man but of God - aligning their wills with the ultimate good, by actively seeking the petition within the Lord's prayer, "thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." Technocratic management is not part of the equation.

Its difficult to watch the lunatics take over the asylum especially an asylum so venerable as the Vatican.

Blogger David August 01, 2016 9:58 AM  

I personally don't have any problem whatever with 'loving my enemy' [wishing the best for him] while at the same time squeezing the trigger to blow his brains out, as I also have a duty to protect my family, my neighbors, and my country.

Blogger tz August 01, 2016 9:58 AM  

Here is a summary of Francis

Blogger Melampus the Seer August 01, 2016 9:59 AM  

My Roman Catholic brothers and sisters, consider the Orthodox Church. It is Catholic, Apostolic, and recognizes the necessity of nations. The autocephalous churches are recognized by their nationality: Greek, Russian, Antiochan, American, etc. The important role of national language and cultural practices are respected. Great importance is placed on the anti-Babel event of Pentecost, the moment the Church was created, in which the Apostles were given the languages of the nations they would evangelize for the unity of the *nations* in Christendom.

The Orthodox church will never accept the curses of progressive modernity. There is no single authority with the power to do that. Each Bishop is equal to all others. Orthodox ecclesiology considers the Church to be much like a hologram. Each church in service of a Bishop is mystically the whole Church from the beginning of time to the end of the Age. They are equal in all respects. There is no hierarchy of Bishops and no Vicar of the church. Christ needs no mediator.

Cannon law and doctrinal matters are managed by correction of two other Bishops or if necessary a synod. Unlike in Roman Catholicism, doctrine does not develop. It is what the Apostles, the Holy Fathers, and the Councils taught. Full stop. Contrary to Roman Catholic teachings, we do not believe that we understand christianity better than the Apostles themselves.

Orthodox accept and even revere the primacy of the Pope. At each Synod, his seat, left empty, is at the head of the table. No other bishop has say in it since the Third Council. However, we do not accept the *supremacy* of the Pope nor his infallibility. We do not consider that any man, including any Bishop, is infallible. We believe the Church is infallible over the long history of the church to the end of the Age. In other words, the Church will serve God's purposes in the end, but God can even make error and sin serve his purposes. So, at no time can a church or a man be said to be acting without defect. In fac, most likely they are acting with defect. As John Chrysostom said, the road to hell is paved with the bones of sinful clergy. Clericalism is much less of a problem in Orthodoxy than Roman Catholicism.

Orthodox do not consider theology to be a branch of reason whereby philosophical categories are applied to religion. Instead, Orthodox classify theology as a branch of *action* characterized by benevolent prudence. If you ask an Orthodox to do theology, he will not take you to a library. He will go with you to feed the poor, care for the widows, and teach the young, all in prayer and thanksgiving.

Consider Orthodoxy dear Roman Catholic brothers and sisters. It's not perfect. It has its own problems with heresy and such. But I think you can keep what you love about Christ and the Church with neither the problems of the development of doctrine nor a hierarchy mediating your relationship with Christ.

Blogger Chent August 01, 2016 10:00 AM  

I have always heard about the beauty of Orthodox liturgy and I wish I could go to this Byzantine Catholic churches

Blogger Tino August 01, 2016 10:00 AM  

Perhaps it's time to learn where the Vatican truly plays... and that Pope Francis is not an aberration.

http://www.oneworldofnations.com/2016/07/iniquitous-reprobates-black-nobility-report2.html?m=1 As good as any report on the topic.

Anonymous Rhetoric Man August 01, 2016 10:02 AM  

"Francis said he thinks "it's not right to identify Islam with violence. He added that every religion has its "little group of fundamentalists.'" He said that if he speaks of violent Islam, he'd have to speak of violent Catholicism, since Catholics kill, too."

No truer words have been spoken here.

auntie emm...

"He is misguiding millions, billions of Catholics."

In the end, God will judge who has been guided and misguided.

Cail...

"It is hard to be joyful and filled with hope at times, have to remind myself that in the end we win."

We win when God gives us His light.

Blogger James Dixon August 01, 2016 10:03 AM  

> Kaine took a year off from law school to volunteer with Jesuit missionaries in Honduras, where he ran a small vocational school for teenage boys while honing his Spanish. It was an eye-opening experience for the Midwesterner, who witnessed the devastating effects of poverty up close, and ignited his longstanding commitment to social justice.

Because you have to travel all the way to Honduras to see poverty. Right. He should try visiting some of the small towns in his native midwest.

> I thought the only differences between my upbringing & Roman Catholicism were:
1) we didn’t believe in intercession by the saints (so we didn't pray to them.)

Well, that's a somewhat debated subject, as I understand it: http://www.anglicancatholic.org/on-the-role-of-the-saints?class=greenlink

I believe the Anglican position is that it's considered acceptable for an Anglican to ask a saint to intercede on his behalf. They're not supposed to be prayed to as if they were Christ or God. My wife is the one who was raised in the Episcopal Church though, not me. If you want I can direct your comment to her.

Blogger Cail Corishev August 01, 2016 10:06 AM  

We have had a lot of bad popes in the past 2 millennia.

Okay, let's deal with the "bad popes" excuse. We have had popes who were bad men: murderers, fornicators, extortionists, whatever. Those popes did their bad things, but left the Deposit of Faith alone. What we haven't had, prior to Vatican II, is a pope who consistently taught against the Catholic faith. The bad popes of the past didn't try to change doctrine to make their bad ways okay.

We're not talking about a few off-the-cuff remarks here; we're talking about a consistent, 3-year (or 50-year, if you look deeper) pattern of teachings on faith and morals which are contrary to the teachings that went before, sometimes exactly opposite. Francis's heretical words have lowered the bar so much that most of what he says doesn't get reported unless it's unusually bizarre; but if you follow him regularly, you know that it's not just a weird statement here or there. It's an almost daily pattern, showing up every time he speaks.

That matters because Catholics are required to assent with intellect and will to the teachings of the Holy Father. No, that doesn't mean we have to jump every time he says so; but it does mean that when a pope (or a series of popes) teaches something about the faith consistently and repeatedly, we have to assent to it. We certainly can't just blow off everything he says while saying we respect his office and saying Mass in communion with him.

However, Catholic doctrine isn't the US Constitution; it can be and is developed, but it can't be amended. As Paul told the Galatians, "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. (Galatians 1:8)." If that applies to the Apostles and angels, it certainly applies to Francis. If he preaches a contrary gospel, we are not just to ignore him, but are to cast him out and declare that he is not from God, and thus cannot be the Vicar of Christ. It's one or the other: he's the Vicar of Christ and has the authority to teach us, or he's an impostor and doesn't.

Accepting that is the hard part. Once you do, you realize that we have a long history of good, reliable teachings from hundreds of previous popes, saints, and theologians, more than you could study in a lifetime. If illiterate peasants in medieval France could save their souls by adhering to the faith as it was taught then, so can we. If this is the time mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 3, when the one who holds back the anti-Christ has been taken out of the way, so be it.

Anonymous andon August 01, 2016 10:08 AM  

at some point people will have had enough of the mooslims and their apologists

Blogger Jon M August 01, 2016 10:12 AM  

Maybe the Sedevacantists have been right all along, but the Church is a field of battle that I refuse to cede to the enemy. As mentioned above, the Catechesis in the Church is dreadful - whether by accident or Jesuit design is left as an exercise for the reader - and so I continue to do my part by teaching actual doctrine in my CCD classes (aka Sunday School). Mine may be a lone voice in the wilderness, but if my teaching draws a few children into the Remnant it will not have been in vain.

Long story short: Francis is a fool from whom the childen of the Church, young and old, need protecting.

Blogger Jon M August 01, 2016 10:15 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Anonymous gxg August 01, 2016 10:19 AM  

Born and raised Catholic in the U.S.

This pope is working very hard to lead his flock to slaughter. If you're not Catholic, you only see the idiotic things he says on the news.

It's more pervasive than that. Our Diocese newspaper is filled with pro-invasion propaganda, both of the Islamic and Mexican variety. These articles all originate in Washington D.C., so this isn't a local thing. There's lots of pictures of women & children refugees/invaders and very little coverage or concern for the Christians being slaughtered in the Middle East.

There's also been a shift in the readings and sermons, with an overbearing emphasis on "opening your doors to those less fortunate." It's not that I don't agree with being charitable, but the emphasis is obviously on immigration and invasion. Even our local priest had been kind of joking, "Well, uh, here we are, hitting this theme again..."

I feel angry and betrayed. A few months ago, we stopped going to church. I hate the thought of leaving it permanently, because our families have been Catholic forever. But I resent lending my voice, money, or support to an organization that is betraying my children and future grandchildren.

I've taken money that would've gone into the weekly offering envelope and sent it to Trump. He seems far more supportive of Catholics than this cuck of Pope is.

Blogger szopen August 01, 2016 10:19 AM  

dc.sunsets wrote:
Isn't seeing the Pope as a miguided man for all practical purposes heresy for a Roman Catholic?


No. According to catholic doctrine, Pope is infallible only when speaking ex cathedra in matters of faith (when speaking officially about catholic doctrine). Pope can sin and err. Pope, in particular, may err when giving interviews, speaking in private, or even speaking to crowds of millions of people - because he is then not speaking ex cathedra about Church' teachings.

I am not a catholic, but I have and had many fundamentalist Catholic friends. I think I know more about Catholic doctrine than my Catholic wife (she hates me when I quote St. Paul letter to Ephesians :-D ).

Anonymous NateM August 01, 2016 10:20 AM  

@11 "Catholics have an extremely high aversion to internal divisions. They are by construction anti-schismatic. Approaching them on topics such as the strangeness of the behavior and words of the higher clergy is akin to walking on a minefield. Their tendency is to explain everything away."

i'd have to agree. After my bad experience with the Paulists I sought out another nearby Catholic Church, but it turned out to be a "Traditional" one (IE, they don't believe in any new policy adopted after Vatican II, Believe any Pope after that point is a Heretic, etc) and as a Catholic I just couldn't justify to myself being there. And this was a time where JPII was still around, who I had great respect for, probably most other Catholics too. Granted some of the things were rather refreshingly old fashioned, head coverings for women and the like, but others like obsessing over the distance of each worshiper from the Sacristy seemed borderline autistic.

Anonymous Jim Scrummy August 01, 2016 10:21 AM  

A lot of good comments on this post. As practicing RC, I have been having a hard time respecting this Jesuit Pope. Never been a fan of the Jesuits, who in my experience from my Catholic HS days, are big practitioners of liberation theology. This current pope is a practitioner of liberation theology, even though he denies it. The Church will survive this Pope and his stupidity. But, I am not sure of the future replacement Pope, who could turn out to be much worse?

Blogger Servant of the Chief August 01, 2016 10:24 AM  

Irish Catholic here.

I admit there is a part of me that is loathed to speak ill of the Pope or give voice to my doubts regarding him amongst those who are not Catholic, or amongst Catholics whose faith may be further damaged by my words (Calumny is terrible in and of itself, but one rarely gives thought to how one's words affect the faith of others, wether they are true or not).

But in truth I am very, very, very tired of Pope Francis. As an Irish Catholic I always had a kind of ultra-montanism in me, which is a perennial problem all Irish Catholics have to some degree or another and its tied to our reliance on the Church Hierarchy as a substitute aristocracy after the exile of the native Irish lords, but thats another story.

Pope Francis is... I don't think, he is an open, willing heretic, but there is very little sensus Catholicus in what he does and says. He despises tradition, he spurns faithful Catholics, he fails to reassure and console the doubtful and fearful (and considering the state of the Church is getting worse and worse thats far more damaging than it sounds), he once was offered a spiritual bouquet of thousands of Rosaries said for his sake, or perhaps it was a million, which is more prayers than any Catholic could dream of having said for their sake and he dismissed it out of hand. His language is uncouth, his manner is disparaging, he has been either complicit or ignorant regarding the UTTERLY shameful shenanigans of the recent synods of the family (in case you missed or didn't follow it, the first shameful thing? It was closed to the public. NO Synod in the past has ever been so closed off with no information allowed out) he has done nothing about the Lavender Mafia or the St.Gallen Gang that infest the hierarchy and silence the Good Bishops that are actually there, assuming he is even aware of them, he ignores the silent persecution of traditionalist orders of priests, nuns and monks his pauperism ends up COSTING the Vatican City state more with the Swiss Guard having to make special exceptions norms and rules because he refuses to live in the Papal apartments and he refuses to treat his office with the dignity it deserves (St.Pius X, the Catholiciest of Modern Popes, slept on planks at night, but during the day he definitely looked like the Pope he was) he tries to DEMOTE the office of Peter as 'just another Bishop' and tacitly supports and promotes the decentralization of the Church, and its goes on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on.

I love the man, but I am very weary of him.

Blogger John Regan August 01, 2016 10:26 AM  

Another thing to bear in mind. Not that long ago we had the great Pope St. Pius X, for whom the SSPX is named, and he instituted the oath against modernism and held his ground and said all the right things, and still the seminaries and convents were infiltrated with, well, you know. Communists, among other things.

And we've still wound up where we are.

If you take the long view the west has been committing religious and cultural suicide in earnest since the middle of the 19th century, and what happened in the Vatican and in the church in the 1960's was just the last big push to finish the job.

But as you might expect you look at the young and where things are trending for the future and it appears that long march is failing and will fail.

I don't worry about it much anymore. I do what good I can in the "great restoration" when I get the opportunity, and the rest - Pope Francis, etc. - I just let go. If you can attend an SSPX, or an "extraordinary form" and help with money, expertise, labor, singing in the choir/schola, do so and hang on.

Belloc wrote this piece (probably about the 1920's, to give some perspective) about how it was far worse to live in a de-Christianizing west than to live in a pagan society that was Christianizing, as in ancient Rome.

I do think we've bottomed out and are making the slow transition to "re-Christianizing". It's an optimistic time, as far as I can tell.

Blogger August August 01, 2016 10:29 AM  

This pope is nuts. Of course, one of the last sermons I heard, before I stopped going, was a priest talking about charity and then concluding that Jesus is a democrat. There is a lot of cult of nice, churchianity nonsense, and sending their young women off to college and career, and then wondering why they've got to shut down their schools due to dropping attendance.
Pope Benedict made us hope things would get better, but it appears to me the Vatican bureaucracy was against him. The bureaucrats seem to like Papa Francis.
If I was more sociable, I'd convert to Eastern Orthodoxy. But even with them, it seems like you do need a temporal leader, in charge of the land- and generally able to lean on the clergy when they get up to stupid things.

Blogger Johnny August 01, 2016 10:29 AM  

I have never been able to figure out Catholic dissenters. If you don't agree with the Pope, why aren't you a Protestant? I mean forming your own opinion is a protestant thing, trusting the hierarch is a catholic thing.

Anonymous johnc August 01, 2016 10:30 AM  

@gxg I feel angry and betrayed. A few months ago, we stopped going to church. I hate the thought of leaving it permanently, because our families have been Catholic forever. But I resent lending my voice, money, or support to an organization that is betraying my children and future grandchildren.

Try to find a Latin Mass. Even if you have to drive an hour one-way. The full Sunday should be reserved for the Lord. The further you have to drive, the more grace your family will receive for the sacrifice.

It is unfortunate... in some places (like where I live) there are three Latin Masses within reasonable driving distance. But in some parts of the country there are none anywhere. It really is like a desert out there.

Anonymous Hezekiah Garrett August 01, 2016 10:32 AM  

I don't think much about the Pope, and if I did, truth be told, I might not think much OF him.

But that little snippet, "a new humanity", is perfectly orthodox. The sanctifying graces supplied by God in the waters of baptism elevate the human soul to an entirely new level. Put it this way, there is as much difference between a dog and a man as there is between a man and a baptised man.

Did il Papa mean that? Who knows? Who cares? I prey for the day Popes tell journalists to read the catechism and encyclicals, and if they need more understanding, to look up their local parish. (The parish priest might be just as bad, but hey, subsidiarity is a thing.)

Anonymous Hezekiah Garrett August 01, 2016 10:34 AM  

I prey... Freudian or caffeine deprived. You be the judge!

Anonymous A Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents August 01, 2016 10:34 AM  

Thanks to all the Roman Catholics who have chosen to comment on this topic. It's interesting to read.

Just want to point out the obvious self-selection here: those Roman Catholics most prone to favor Francis do not comment here and are not likely to, while those RC who do comment here are not likely to be among the fans or supporters of Francis.

For defenders of the current Pope one must elsewhere.

Anonymous johnc August 01, 2016 10:35 AM  

@Johnny I have never been able to figure out Catholic dissenters. If you don't agree with the Pope, why aren't you a Protestant? I mean forming your own opinion is a protestant thing, trusting the hierarch is a catholic thing.

That's not how we see it. We judge articles of Faith based on the history and tradition of the Church. I.e., what has been accepted as the Holy Faith from the beginning is the Faith today. That means if some pope like Francis comes along saying squirrely things, we judge his words not by his position in the Church, but by history.

So we do not assent merely on position. The Deposit of Faith was delivered once and for all to the Apostles and never changes. What Catholics believed in the past, we believe now. No pope can change that.

Christ is head of His Church, not Francis. Francis is merely tasked with acting as a steward -- passing on what was handed on from the previous generation to the next.

Blogger Doom August 01, 2016 10:35 AM  

Hahah! I've read the bible, NT, about seven times. The OT three times, once I realized just how vital it is to a full understanding. I have NO IDEA where most of the books are. NT gospels? Gotcha. At least which testament. Beyond that, bugger off. I'll... look it up. Sheesh. Who reads the book list for memorization? Seriously. The list of books in the front were made so you don't have to do that.

Anonymous BGKB August 01, 2016 10:36 AM  

I mean, seriously, "a new humanity"? What sort of Communist post-Christian anti-Biblical happy talk is that?

Moslems are the zerg of humanity.

Blogger Cail Corishev August 01, 2016 10:40 AM  

Orthodox here: I'm more interested in what the Roman Catholics feel about the pope emeritus.

Sigh. Benedict is complicated.

I like Benedict, and loved him for allowing the return of the true Mass. He has an appreciation for Tradition that was refreshing after years of trashing it, and I enjoyed his quotes about the "banal liturgy" of the Novus Ordo as much as anyone.

But his other statements about being a man of Vatican II, and the fact that he was one of its shapers, nagged at me. How could a man both embrace and reject something? So I started studying him more closely. Problem is, he's a serious intellectual, so you can't read his stuff without a thesaurus handy. Even then, it's easy to wonder whether you understood the exact meaning of the theological terms he used, and hope that he meant something else.

It finally came together when I read that his favorite theologians were followers of Hegel. Hegel came up with the idea that you can take a thesis and come closer to the truth of it by synthesizing it with its opposite. Now, that may work for imperfect things, but what if your "thesis" is something which is already perfect, like the teachings of Jesus Christ, or His Body on earth? Then its anti-thesis is....what?

But that's what Benedict's "hermeneutic of continuity" is about: taking the Catholic faith and synthesizing it with the faith of Vatican II, which is in many ways its opposite, and ending up with something better than before. He never intended to undo Vatican II at all, like I and many of my traditional friends hoped; he wanted to put it in a blender with pre-Vatican II teachings and come up with something that would work for everyone.

I still like him, and he probably did slow down the headlong charge of Modernism a bit. But he also obfuscated the situation, because now Francis looks like such a radical change that few people realize he's only the culmination of a 50-year progression, and almost everything Francis says was said in some form by Benedict, John Paul II, or Paul VI before him. Going "back to Benedict" or a Benedict clone, even if it were possible, wouldn't fix anything, because the same men who gave us Benedict gave us Francis, and they'll keep doing so until the rot of Vatican II is dug out.

Blogger praetorian August 01, 2016 10:42 AM  

Francis is the last attempt of the ancient and grey, Vatican II generation heretical bishops, to complete their failed project of a half century ago, of trying to fully progressivize the church.

Ancient and gay. It is the homosexual, philosemitic (in some cases, just plain semitic) group that sold the church out to the world.

The worst Pope in the history of the Catholic Church.

There have been a lot of popes.

As an Irish Catholic I always had a kind of ultra-montanism in me

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility

"The Catholics of Ireland not only do not believe, but they declare upon oath ... that it is not an article of the Catholic faith, neither are they required to believe, that the Pope is infallible, and that they do not hold themselves 'bound to obey any order in its own nature immoral', though the Pope or any ecclesiastical power should issue or direct such an order; but, on the contrary, that it would be sinful in them to pay any respect or obedience thereto."

Blogger tublecane August 01, 2016 10:45 AM  

@135-You may be confounding Catholicism with "1984."

Blogger Dean Esmay August 01, 2016 10:45 AM  

It's totally acceptable for a regular Mass-attending believing Catholic to dislike any particular Pope. Often they do.

I remember those who disliked JPII though he eventually transcended (most) of that. Benedict XVI was widely hated by some until he left. The same will be true of Francis.

What I see, over and over, is both right-wing and left-wing press quote-mine the guy. Which is not to say some of the criticisms aren't correct. But the most recent I saw was a quote in the New York Post--given with no context and just a sweeping conclusion, and nowhere where we could go to look for more context.

This is normal. So What I Normally do is wait 2-3 days, then go look for a Vatican source that has the full context of all remarks.

Whenever I do that--so far anyway--I fine, sometimes he's still been cringeworthy. But more often, he's just been taken out of context, again. So I wait patiently.

Then I also remind people, Catholic or non, that Popes are human, Popes can be wrong, Popes can be awful people even. Cardinals criticize current Popes. Bishops and Priests do too. This is also normal for being Catholic. It happens.

So it may be some think I'm overly nice to this Pope--I have come to his defense a few times. But I don't think him perfect and no other Catholic should. Maybe I'm too nice. Maybe I look for too many excuses. Or may the press really is clueless, and maybe some of them really do have it in for him. And maybe it's in between.

One thing for sure: the faith doesn't depend on the guy. In fact he could be the closet commie they say he is, in which case, he'll just wind up gone anyway. He can't just bark orders that we all comply, despite what some may say.

Anyone who wants an in-depth understanding of where Popes are usually coming from on economic matters should see the late 19th Century Papal Bull "Rerum Novarum" and the subsequent updating encyclical by JPII known as "Centessimus Annus." So far Francis has to my eye stayed within these bounds, though he does seem to go more toward one side of it than another.

Most important take home: no Catholic is required to hang on every word of any Pope. Anyone worried about Catholics should remember that.

Blogger The Remnant August 01, 2016 10:45 AM  

This pope is a man of the world rather than a man of god, and he has made the church more worldly. Whether this is by mere coincidence of his becoming pope or part of a larger conspiracy I cannot say. I can say that the resentment he's stoking is very similar to what motivated Martin Luther.

Anonymous Viking August 01, 2016 10:45 AM  

I am a Catholic convert by my own choice. That is, not for a marriage or some such. Even with Francis I don't regret the decision but he is certainly trying. I very much liked Benedict as I am definitely more traditionally leaning than most.

I am not a sedevacantist although Francis does make me at least consider the possibility that he is an anti-pope. (An anti-pope calling for an anti-crusade?) He at least seems to be strongly pro-life. And it doesn't appear that any Church doctrine was actually changed with Amoris Laetitia even if there was a somewhat disturbing shift in emphasis.

I think Francis will go down in history, if there is much of it left, as at least a poor pope and possibly a bad or even heretical pope. There is no doubt he is a globalist and he at least lets his politics get in the way of his ministry. The Church isn't his toy or a vehicle for his personal social beliefs. He was charged with taking care of Christ's Bride for a time. Failing to protect her from those who would harm her will surely not go unnoticed. Any Church leader should consider how terrible the anger of the Bridegroom will be when he returns for her and finds her so treated. And the greatest part of that anger won't be for the barbarians doing only what they know. It will be for the ones he called His friends, the ones he trusted with His greatest treasure but who then turned their back on that trust.

All these things do also make me wonder of the Day of the Lord is very near. Perhaps Francis is the last pope.

Blogger darrenl August 01, 2016 10:47 AM  

Forgive me. I misunderstood your tone. Reason #1000 that I should stop commenting on the internet.

But yes, I have bigger fish to fry than what the Holy Father says at 30000 ft on a plane.

Reading here, get the impression that some have forgotten who guides the Church.

God Bless, sir.

Blogger Tamquam August 01, 2016 10:52 AM  

Catholic born and bred. Considered leaving for some form of Protestantism, but just couldn't. Liturgy and doctrine matter.

Initially I thought he might be OK, you just had to parse his statements in context, which the media is utterly unable to do. He's said some good things, for example, "Hagan lio!" As a fluent Spanish speaker I read that as "Make a ruckus for the Gospel." Nice, I like it.

I am increasingly disappointed that he is inclining to the leftist zeitgeist and supporting the socialist undermining of Western civilization.

He's got one job, one job, and he's blowing it: to transmit whole and uncorrupted the deposit of faith received by the Apostles. We've seen some good popes, some bad popes and a whole mess of mediocre popes. Popes have been condemned as heretics and anathematized by their successors before now; it can happen again.

All of which is above my pay grade. My job is to live the Gospel as fully and completely as I can. Pray for me as I for you.

Blogger Dean Esmay August 01, 2016 10:55 AM  

Oh, I should add: Not only are Catholics not required to agree politically with a Pope, or agree with all he says, or follow his advice, BUT:

Another thing to keep in mind, he always has to think of the entire Catholic faith, and the rest of Christianity globally. Whether other Christians agree with him or not, it's part of his job. At the moment, countless millions of non-Roman Catholic but still closely related Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox (eg Coptic) and non-Chalcedonnian Orthodox (eg Assyrian Orthodox) are NOT in Communion with Rome--

AND YET, in much of the Islamic world, the Pope is seen almost like "Sultan of all Christians." No, this claim makes no sense. The claim isn't just wrong, it's crazy wrong. But this is how he gets seen. And thus, ANY stray remark he makes can redound to immediate death or dismemberment for Christians who aren't even part of his flock. He knows this, everybody involved in Vatican diplomacy gets it.

You may say "they're persecuting those Christians anyway!" but don't be naive. If you think they can't do worse you're crazy.

Remember that a Pope isn't your local Bishop or even Cardinal advocating for you. He's a global figure. He can't NOT be a global source. Things he says here can get Coptics killed in Africa. Things he says here can get Orthodox in Palestine killed. And so on and so forth.

History records many times when Popes were essentially held hostage by events. Recent historical discoveries have shown that during at least one of the Crusades (I forget which, probably the 4th) the Pope at the time was literally being blackmailed on pain of death of innocents to shut up about certain excesses going on. This was also true during World War II, where rumors the Pope was Hitler's guy ran rampant, such rumors continuing for decades until it turned out it wasn't true at all.

Thus my advice is to, if Francis annoys you, remember:

1) You aren't required to do everything he says as a Catholic, or even required to like him.
2) The press does quote-mine him. Always look for full context if you can get it, even if it requires waiting a bit.
3) Remember what Catholic Social Teaching actually is; it's neither Socialist nor raw libertarian Capitalist. Rerum Novarum and Centessimus Annus will clarify.
4) Remember you don't know everything, and go back to #1: you aren't required to give any Pope slavish obedience on any of the major political issues of the day.

For whatever any of that is worth.

Blogger praetorian August 01, 2016 10:57 AM  

I have never been able to figure out Catholic dissenters. If you don't agree with the Pope, why aren't you a Protestant? I mean forming your own opinion is a protestant thing, trusting the hierarch is a catholic thing.

Consider the alternatives. Look at the mainlines. Look at the prosperity gospel. Look at the warehouse churches. The rock-band and light-show churches. Look at usury rampant. Look at the autistic theology. Recognizing the deep and perhaps fatal problems in todays catholic church, the protestant urge has plenty to answer for itself.

Basically, I think it's worth fighting for.

Also, jews hate the catholic church. These days that's almost enough for me.

Blogger SemiSpook37 August 01, 2016 11:02 AM  

Jon M wrote:Maybe the Sedevacantists have been right all along, but the Church is a field of battle that I refuse to cede to the enemy.

The problem with the sedes is that they think they know better than those who were properly trained within the Church with regards to how the flow of Apostolic succession is maintained. My fear is with those types is that they'll still refuse subsidiarity to Rome if and when there is a pontiff elevated that aligns to what their particular viewpoint is. Along those lines, they're no better than the "Old" catholics that rejected the idea of infallibility at Vatican I (a council which has only been suspended, not formally closed, by the way, IIRC).

Jon M wrote:and so I continue to do my part by teaching actual doctrine in my CCD classes (aka Sunday School).

And may God bless you for doing as such. We need more people like you around to help turn the catechesis problem around. I, personally, can't stand the current iteration of the CCC, as it's way too wishy-washy in terms of how it addresses things (the main problem is that it spends way too much time overexplaining things, and not in a good way). I need to dig back into my Baltimore Catechism No. 3 and start getting smart on that one, along with my oldest. She's got a good head on her shoulders, and she's starting to ask questions that I personally can appreciate.

Blogger Dean Esmay August 01, 2016 11:11 AM  

I keep coming back, sorry, but I'll point out another fact:

Current press in English has it that Pope is disliked in Poland.

Family contacts I have in Poland, by comparison, say BS, they and most people they know love the guy in Poland.

A recent Gallup International opinion survey showed Francis wildly popular in Poland, only more popular in places like Argentina.

Thus, it just further underscores: when you see something in the press, rather than just kneejerking, stop and reflect. There is almost no bit of news that requires you to come to conclusions instantly.

The Polish Nationalist government in charge has reasons to be skittish about Francis, not least of which is Kremlin hostility toward the Papacy. Yes, Catholics paying attention (not just me) know full well about the politics with Kiril, the Moscow Patriarchate, and the hostility Putin has toward the Vatican. Governments involved in the burgeoning Trans-Nationalist anti-Globalist movement are aware of how things are seen too.

By comparison, Francis has to be Pope to all these people, across all these borders, and across all the differing political opinions within the flock.

I would think the best possible strategy for the trans-nationalist movement is to find some way to let worried Catholics know the "altright" isn't out to get them, and may be unhappy with the Pope but isn't going to try to enact revenge on Catholics for him. So to remind again:

1: No Catholic is required to align politically with the Pope unless the stakes are very high--like the guy gets taken hostage or something. Otherwise, seriously, he can talk all day, no one has to vote his way.
2: Popes are global figures. They can't take sides in local conflicts.
3: Popes have to think about non-Catholic Christians in areas where they're going to be in danger.

All just things to think on.

Blogger praetorian August 01, 2016 11:13 AM  

For my fellow catholics looking to start their day with a nice cup full of despair, triggering & cognitive dissonance:

http://forward.com/opinion/159955/converts-who-changed-the-church/?p=all

Mmmmm, the anti-semitism. So smooth. Velvety, almost.

Blogger Alexandros August 01, 2016 11:18 AM  

@155
Fifty years ago this fall, Catholic bishops gathered in Rome for a council that would bring the church “up to date” by making it speak more directly to the modern world.
making it speak more directly to the modern world.
modern world.

They're not even trying to hide their pursuit of modernism.

Blogger Tom Kratman August 01, 2016 11:21 AM  

I sent this to my priest on 24 April. I haven't been back since then, which really bothers me quite a bit.

Dear Father ___:

I've come close to walking out of mass before, when Deacon Mike was plugging for gun control. I didn't, then, but I resolved that I would walk out if the church again attempted to interfere, even if only by suggestion, with matters of internal politics of the United States or undermining of the Constitution of the United States or undermining of the security of the United States.

This morning, at the early mass, I did walk out after we were intoned to not be afraid of letting in "refugees." I'm not sure what universe the reader lives in. I am not sure what universe the writer of the request for prayers lives in. In the universe I live in, the real universe, those refugees are mostly - no, _overwhelmingly_ - military age males, from a hostile religion, heavily infiltrated by ISIS/DAESH, a slave trading, raping, fanatical, genocidal, and expanding group of that religion. No, the State Department and DHS cannot filter out the maniacs.

Yes, as a matter of fact I do have quite a bit of experience over there.

I will not welcome them. I will not encourage others to welcome them. And I will not support a church that says we should. They are the enemy. They are the enemy of both civilization and Christianity. They are not an enemy to be turned by turning the other cheek. (Indeed, given the sexual proclivities of the region, it is wise to keep all one's cheeks far, far from them.) And those who would let them in are working hand in hand with the enemies of civilization and the Church.

Whether I shall come back to Saint Mary's, find another Catholic Church less politically and suicidally liberal, or join a less effectively anti-Christian Protestant church I cannot say at this time. I am pretty sure that whichever way I decide, God will understand my preferring not to support the ruin of my country, my civilization, or my religion.

Sincerely,

Thomas P. Kratman

Blogger Servant of the Chief August 01, 2016 11:22 AM  

@144 praetorian, You are conflating Papal Infallability with Ultra-Montanism, which is not the same thing. Ultra-Mntanism is an error in the Catholic Church were undue emphasis on the powers, perogatives of the Pope. (which, yes, a misunderstanding of Infallability can be seen as) while the Bishops of Ireland did reject the teaching int he 19th Century, the average Irish man still regarded the Pope with the same distant reverence chinamen used to revere their emperor in the forbidden palace. It was an error, but it was ingrained in us and still lingers even in the secular wasteland Ireland has become.

Blogger Cail Corishev August 01, 2016 11:25 AM  

That's not how we see it. We judge articles of Faith based on the history and tradition of the Church. I.e., what has been accepted as the Holy Faith from the beginning is the Faith today. That means if some pope like Francis comes along saying squirrely things, we judge his words not by his position in the Church, but by history.

Exactly. And wearing a white suit and sitting in the Vatican doesn't guarantee that a man is the pope. At some points in history, earthly rulers told the bishops, "You're going to elect my favorite guy, or else." We accept those men as popes because they didn't teach against the faith, and we believe that the Holy Ghost will protect any true pope from error.

More than anything else, the pope is the guarantor of the Deposit of Faith, because "whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven." This situation where the pope spouts heresy and then his apologists try to stuff it into a Catholic frame is exactly backwards. The pope is the one we can count on to step in when all the rest are off the rails.

So if a guy in a white suit openly attacks the faith and preaches a different gospel, we know he's not the pope, and as I referenced above from Galatians, he is anathema. We don't have to know how he's not the pope, what went wrong with the election, whether he's the first impostor, or what's going on. We just have to adhere to the faith as it was consistently passed down from the Apostles and pray for God to straighten it out.

Blogger praetorian August 01, 2016 11:27 AM  

It was an error, but it was ingrained in us and still lingers even in the secular wasteland Ireland has become.

Yes, I was trying to point out that there was historical precedent in the irish church, in particular, for a healthy skepticism toward the hierarchy.

Blogger Achilles August 01, 2016 11:32 AM  

As a Catholic I recognize there have been a lot of bad Popes. I can't recall one so intent on dismantling the Church though. As much as I loathe the cowardly communist, Red Francis is just a symptom of the disease. The Vatican is full of evil men. What better institution for SJWs to infiltrate?

What I find interesting is that despite being one of the first organized religions to be infected (they hired Saul Alinsky to train priests) it still has held firm against things like gay marriage and female priests.

I'm not sure how much lay people can do to turn the tide. Stop the government giving the Church money to take in "refugees" seems a good start. I'm sure bribery plays a big part. Support clergy who have common sense and defend Catholicism. At least have the balls to affirm our right to self-defense. And calling for a new crusade or reconquista wouldn't hurt.

Blogger Astalnar August 01, 2016 11:38 AM  

I'm Catholic. To tell you the truth, I pray to God we get Urban IX as soon as possible. Pope Francis is an embarrassment to Jesuit order.

Blogger CM August 01, 2016 11:43 AM  

Cail -
If this is the time mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 3, when the one who holds back the anti-Christ has been taken out of the way, so be it.

Could you expound on this?

Anonymous stress management August 01, 2016 11:45 AM  

@157 Tom Kratman -

Thank you for the sample letter, it pulls no punches. Bravo, despite the terrible weight in withdrawing from communion/fellowship. Shake the dust, and stand firm.

More Christians need to oppose their errant clergy with these kinds of blunt warnings and letters. Most people in the pews (or, more distressingly these days, a pop-rock auditorium) just sit there and go along with any worldly trend, heresy, political stupidity, etc. issuing from the pulpit. The Bereans were considered more noble for challenging it.

Hold them to their place!

Anonymous gxg August 01, 2016 11:46 AM  

#157: I sent this to my priest on 24 April...
That was one powerful letter. I wonder if they took it to heart. If not, they should.

When I was in grade school, sometime in the 70s, I recall asking my Mom why people were ever worried about having a Catholic President. (We were discussing JFK at the time.) She said that previously, there was a concern among many people in the U.S. that it would be unwise to elect a man whose allegiance was to a central authority outside the USA.

Today, as I ponder this globalist Pope and our Pro-Islamic President, I can't help but think that this concern was well founded.

OpenID malcolmthecynic August 01, 2016 11:48 AM  

Catholic here,

Pope Francis is a poor Pope. No question. But he is the most recent in a VERY long line of Popes.

What's needed is perspective. Just because Pope Francis is the most recent Pope, does not make his thoughts and opinions more valid than any previous posts. My thought is that our best bet is honestly ignoring His Holiness and looking through the past statements of Popes and documents throughout Church history. His Holiness can't just invalidate them. They'll always be there.

The long history we have to draw on didn't start with and won't end on Pope Francis. We've had bad Popes before. We will again. We've survived them all.

The Church has survived for 2,000 years. Bad Popes didn't kill it in the past. A bad Pope won't kill it now.

Perspective is always in order.

Anonymous Gen. Kong August 01, 2016 11:48 AM  

I'm rather surprised that only one of the Catholics here have mentioned Ann Barnhardt. As noted, she regards the Marxist SJW known as Pope Francis as a 'Diabolical Narcissist' and makes a strong case for it. The other position she has taken, which was not noted above is that she regards him as an Anti-Pope, since (she argues) that Benedict XVI never actually resigned from the office.

Anonymous Anonymous August 01, 2016 11:50 AM  

I was born and raised Catholic, was even a lay missionary for 13 years. I was very, very conservative with Latin Mass, etc. I raise my family s Catholics (Sunday Mass, Catholic Camp, etc.) but I'm agnostic deep down. I am really, really POed with the Red Pope Francis, who is as cowardly, hypocritical and senile as he is dangerous. I feel frustrated that there is no real way for Catholics to counter Francis' insane statements and snap him out of his Islamic Fantasy. I want him gone. I want a pope declaring a crusade.

Blogger dc.sunsets August 01, 2016 11:51 AM  

I've learned much from the insightful comments here.

My takeaway is how much I underestimated the breadth & depth of rot now in place. True believers must be almost like Early Christians, who risked much if not all by devoting themselves to that which was considered blasphemy by their neighbors, coworkers & Authority.

The so-called Alt-right is much, much more than a loose political movement.

Blogger Leo Little Book in Shenzhen August 01, 2016 11:52 AM  

Church should be a respite from worldly soul-sickness, not its apotheosis.

Better bugs and honey in the desert.

Anonymous rubberducky August 01, 2016 11:53 AM  

Catholic here. Hate this pope. Always have. Saw it coming. He's a Marxist. Liberation Theology is nothing but an attempt by Latin Americans to pervert the Gospel, graft communisn on to it, and use it as a tool to promote social justice.

Pope John Paul II rightly called Liberation Theology out as a heresy. And the man who is now pope distanced himself from it.

But, as we have seen, he was lying. Because SJWs always lie.

Blogger Christopher August 01, 2016 11:53 AM  

I drafted a long comment going over how it's best to get the original material --preferably from a .va source, and take it in context and read it with charity --and comparing it to how the lame stream media push pulls quotes, e.g. Trump.

But yeah, his view on borders in the current world context is a problem ... I question it. I don't know how to work up a charitable and useful interpretation of it. If he wants to say something like, aim less at the refugees and more at Merkel and Obama and the oligarchs really running the show and setting up these circumstances, why doesn't he just say so? Has he elsewhere?

OpenID malcolmthecynic August 01, 2016 11:53 AM  

Cail,

Pope Honorius I was literally anathematized.

This isn't an "excuse", it's a valid point.

Blogger bob k. mando August 01, 2016 11:55 AM  

120. Melampus the Seer August 01, 2016 9:59 AM
We believe the Church is infallible over the long history of the church to the end of the Age.


'over the long history'?

that's how you get around the prophecy of Revelations which says that all but one of the churches are in error?

i mean, even if you don't consider Rev 2 & 3 prophecy, at a minimum you have to consider that an overwhelming majority of the 'Church' was in significant error even in the time of the Apostles.

Anonymous gxg August 01, 2016 11:55 AM  

A side note... Catholic Charities is one of the organizations facilitating the resettlement of "refugees" here in the USA, which is why I've stopped giving to them entirely. There's an annual fund-raising campaign. This past year, I tossed the fundraising material straight into the trash. Now, as I look at Tom Kratman's letter, I realize that throwing it out isn't enough. I should send back the donation-envelope with a letter explaining why I no longer support them.

Unfortunately today, Catholic Charities gets much of their money from the government, so the loss of private donations might not bother them all that much.

OpenID malcolmthecynic August 01, 2016 11:55 AM  

If Pope Francis is an anti-Pope then the Vatican will at one point confirm it. In lieu of that, I will and do treat Pope Francis as my Pope.

Blogger bob k. mando August 01, 2016 12:00 PM  

157. Tom Kratman August 01, 2016 11:21 AM
I sent this to my priest on 24 April. I haven't been back since then, which really bothers me quite a bit.



even speaking as a Baptist, i'm sorry that you've been forced to this.

the only comfort i can offer is that the whole message of the Bible is Repentance and Righteousness.

so long as you are attempting to hold fast to Biblical teaching, i encourage you.

Blogger Markku August 01, 2016 12:01 PM  

that's how you get around the prophecy of Revelations which says that all but one of the churches are in error?

Smyrna was not in error, along with Philadelphia. There was also a few others that got a good grade, but the sin of which was tolerance.

Blogger CarpeOro August 01, 2016 12:13 PM  

I was born and raised in the Lutheran church (a branch which became the ELCA) and left it when it began "considering" being more accepting of homosexuality. I moved on to a Mennonite branch and lapsed from that. With marriage, I started attending Pentecostal churches with my wife (Assembly of God). What I have observed is that I have been most enriched in my faith when the focus was on God. The problem has always been when the congregation or pastor has deviated from that. In the high church (Lutheran or Catholic), the problem often appears to be where the leadership structure has become corrupted to try to be more of this world. For the Evangelicals, there always seems to be a focus on the personality/person of the pastor of the churches (I have been to four different Assembly of God congregations and seen three racked by splits caused by portions of the congregation and the pastors having falling outs) that causes the lack of focus.

Remembering my High church roots and what it can be like to be in a church where the focus truly belongs, I have at times recently considered the Roman Catholic church. The problem is, I see almost as many issues there today as engendered the writing of the 95 Theses by Martin Luther. I can't justify working on converting my wife along with myself at this point when I can't muster arguments for it over what we attend now (between the misinterpretation of speaking in tongues and the personality cult issues this should be easier for me to argue, but it is not).

Blogger U PC BRO? August 01, 2016 12:21 PM  

If there is one potential bright spot of the current Muzloid invasion it is the opportunity it presents to return so many lost souls to the Church. When I think of what could be if we had the right man in the Holy See, how many lapsed Catholics and even Protestants would rally to the banner of he church...and yet we have the worst possible man at the worst possible time. Instead of mustering the Templars, his top priorities are fretting over global warming, letting women who frivorce their husbands take Holy Communion, and apologizing to faggots.

Blogger James August 01, 2016 12:39 PM  

My parents sent me to Roman Catholic elementary school so I would get discipline and rigorous teaching that did not exist in government schools. I made First Confession and received First Communion and then Confirmation as a Roman Catholic. According to the rules I'm still technically Roman Catholic even though I believe more like Calvin and Luther and Knox now and reject the idea of a Pope having any special authority over my spiritual condition. And the teaching of this Francis person supports my decision in my mind to reject unconditional submission to such arbitrary authority. I believe that everyone is answerable to the Truth in the Bible and to spiritual Truth in general. Francis is obviously full of idiotic New Age "Bablistic" baloney. Now is a good time for Roman Catholics to realize that they need not submit to such ridiculous heresies.

Anonymous Leonidas August 01, 2016 12:42 PM  

I'm an adult convert to Catholicism - raised protestant, became atheist as a teenager, then agnostic, then converted to the Church under Benedict. I'm not 100% sure what to make of Francis.

To be sure, the media is absolutely distorting what he says - down the point of outright lying. If you're not seeing the quotes in the original language, don't trust them. Translations of him are universally bad, but I've seen more than a few that are outright lies.

On the other hand, he's just plain not a good speaker. He's misinterpreted by the media on many occasions because he phrases things so incredibly poorly that there's room there for the misinterpretations to be made.

Frankly, he doesn't seem terribly bright to me. That's a bit disappointing to an overeducated +3 standard deviation IQ like myself. I came into the church under Benedict, and he was an intellectual giant. Francis, whatever else he may or may not be, is not that.

My general opinion of the man is that he's an amiable dunce. I believe he has a strong Faith, and that his heart is generally in the right place. His mind is clearly somewhere else. I also think, like many here have noted, that his thoughts are influenced (clouded?) by his South American heritage and his generation. The man himself has repeatedly and loudly disavowed Liberation Theology, both before and after becoming Pope. Nevertheless, you can't live in a world that enmeshed in such drivel without it influincing you - and I believe it has in his case. Likewise, the Baby Boom may not have happened so much outside the USA, but the attitudes of the generation are pretty widespread in the western world.

But I have to admit that there are days when I wonder if I'm being overly charitable with my interpretation.

Blogger Harry Cassandra August 01, 2016 12:43 PM  

One cannot be an obedient Roman Catholic and be a nationalist. Nationalism is anathema to Church teaching because it, allegedly, puts one's nation before God (i.e. before the Catholic Church).

Protestantism has no problem with nationalism so long as one recognises that the only legitimate theologians left are guys like Rushdoony and Dabney. Kinist theonomy is the only reading of Scripture that is biblically nationalist, ethnically aware and race realist. Everything is different degrees of humanism cuckism, devoted to avoiding biblical teaching in order to fit with the humanist zeitgeist.

Blogger tz August 01, 2016 12:44 PM  

@125 there is a difference between dogma, doctrine, and discipline. For example, non-married priests in the latin rite.
Francis has called (excessively) for Mercy but has not overturned a teaching. Divorce? Let adulterers feel good on the way to hell.
@157 I'm 3 blocks from a church that has the Latin mass and is healthy (many trads go pharisee, not this one). The other in Wyoming is on the campus of Wyoming Catholic College where they encourage open carry but ban cell phones. There is a remnant, and it isn't exactly exile with gigabit ethernet and craft beer.

Blogger Cail Corishev August 01, 2016 12:50 PM  

@163, Sorry, I meant 2 Thessalonians 2. The chapter is about the coming of anti-Christ and the end times, and Paul is explaining to them that certain things have to happen first. Verse 3 talks about a revolt (Vatican II?). Verse 7 says: "For the mystery of iniquity already worketh; only that he who now holdeth, do hold, until he be taken out of the way."

Many Catholics take that "he who now holdeth" back this coming to be the head of the Church against which the gates of Hell shall not prevail, meaning that the pope will have to be moved out of the way somehow before, as verse 8 says, "And then that wicked one shall be revealed whom the Lord Jesus shall kill with the spirit of his mouth..."

There are also private revelations and prophecies that support this idea of the pope and/or Church being eclipsed by a false one at some point as a necessary step in God's plan, but since we're not required to put faith in any of those, I thought I'd stick with scripture.

Blogger August August 01, 2016 12:52 PM  

Regarding Vatican I- if you look at the rise of the bureaucrats as something beginning as absolutism became fashionable (Martin Van Creveld's Rise and Decline of the State), and then metastasizing in the Revolutionary movements in the 1800s, you can also assume this happened in the church. Whether you feel inclined to stick to Vatican I or not, you can definitely look at it as a bureaucratic caricature of what they sort of vaguely remembered the former nobility to have.
If you want a flavor of this from another culture, try reading the Hagakure. The author was of the Samurai class, and obviously loved the Samurai, but you can tell from the writing that he was really just a bureaucrat.

Blogger tz August 01, 2016 12:53 PM  

@182 Nationalism is compatible in the context of subsidiarity. Family, relatives, tribe/village, provence, nation.

Putting nation above God, or that the nation, circumcision or anything else but Christ saves is a heresy. Loyalty is a virtue in context, including to nation, but it means exposing national sins.

On point Chuck Baldwin's Latest sermon is on point. He mentions over half the women seeking abortion claim to be Christian.

Blogger szopen August 01, 2016 12:55 PM  

Harry Cassandra wrote:One cannot be an obedient Roman Catholic and be a nationalist.


Tell that to almost all Polish nationalists (there is only very small pagan strain, the rest is stressing the importance of catholicism).

Blogger Stilicho August 01, 2016 12:56 PM  

@Tom Kratman: when you find yourself stating to you church hierarchy "Here I stand. God help me, I can do no other."... you are in good company.

Blogger tz August 01, 2016 12:58 PM  

I find it strange to complain about Francis and a local church. How much is your soul, and the souls of your family worth. If there was a toxic waste dump next door, you'd move, taking whatever loss. But people will stay in spiritually toxic environments until they are crippled, maimed, or dead.

You can't change Popes, but you can change parishes (or pastors).

Blogger VFM #7634 August 01, 2016 12:58 PM  

@ malcolmthecynic

Pope Honorius I was literally anathematized.

Wrong. St. Robert Bellarmine determined that the charges were trumped-up and baseless, and were made in the first place by the proto-Eastern Orthodox.

If Pope Francis is an anti-Pope then the Vatican will at one point confirm it. In lieu of that, I will and do treat Pope Francis as my Pope.

That would require the Vatican be SJW-unconverged. That's rich. Are you going to wait for the scoundrels to condemn themselves?

@Gen. Kong
The other position she has taken, which was not noted above is that she regards him as an Anti-Pope, since (she argues) that Benedict XVI never actually resigned from the office.

That doesn't solve anything. Benedict is just as bad as Francis, but sneakier.

Francis isn't a sudden thing going on here. The rot started with John XXIII and Paul VI with their evil Second Vatican Council, and when they completely changed the Mass, the rites of ordination and consecration, and... everything.

There's a reason Catholicism started to collapse after Vatican II. Think about it.

Blogger tz August 01, 2016 1:02 PM  

@186-cont.
Baldwins sermon is about how pastors and the congregation don't resist the devil (Text: James 5 "Resist the devil and he will flee from you"). The Devil is a coward (omega or gamma). He can only intimidate into destruction, but the destruction is real.

Blogger Were-Puppy August 01, 2016 1:03 PM  

"People may judge you to be dreamers, because you believe in a new humanity, one that rejects hatred between peoples, one that refuses to see borders as barriers and can cherish its own traditions without being self-centered or small-minded," Francis told his flock."

Pure globalist verbiage

Blogger Guy Fox August 01, 2016 1:05 PM  

The long slow march through the institutions has most certainly included the Catholic Church, and today we have an SJW as our pope. I have come to the conclusion that the devistation wrought since Vatican 2 is not just a problem with the application of the counsel documents, but that the documents themselves are converged. The evidence is clear by every measure that the Church has collapsed since the counsel. I don't think anything is going to change for these effeminate churchman until they see the severed head of the pope dangling from the hand of some dirty Arab. God will purify his holy bride with the white hot heat of his wrath. May He have pity on is all.

Blogger Jon M August 01, 2016 1:06 PM  

Hogwash. You can be both Catholic and Nationalist. Obedience to God can coexist with obedience to secular authority when the latter doesn't tread on the former. Supporting nationalism can be done as a defense against the sorts of secular incursion into religious life that are so prolific in our day.

Blogger Marie August 01, 2016 1:08 PM  

"One cannot be an obedient Roman Catholic and be a nationalist."

St. Joan of Arc

Blogger Were-Puppy August 01, 2016 1:08 PM  

@8 Doom
Black pope. First! (Or maybe not, haven't checked.)
---

Maybe they are setting up for the First! muslim pope.

Blogger tz August 01, 2016 1:09 PM  

@190, Contraception is still a grave sin - Humanae Vitae. Almost no other "Christians" hold to that. It is clear but ignored. Francis has not mentioned it.

If the Latin Mass was so perfect, then why did the church fall? It wasn't. The laity were dumb sheep doing what the priests said, and the priests in turn to the bishops, so when the bishops said to go to hell, the priests followed, and the laity followed them.

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