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Monday, August 29, 2016

Mailvox: what is Churchianity

Yesterday we had a few requests for a definition of "Churchianity":

 Is there anywhere on this blog where you define "Churchian"? 
- MS

I too would like a definition of Churchian. Could you cover that in a future post?
- Jaypo

While I have frequently alluded to it, I have not addressed Churchianity directly on this blog before. In part, that is because I am loath to play Christian Police, a role for which I am ill-suited spiritually and temperamentally. I wish to stress that I cannot, and will not, be the judge of whether anyone is a genuine Christian or is a mere Churchian instead; that determination is well above my pay grade. It does not fall to me to even be the judge of my own Christianity, as we are all fallen and none of us know whether we will be saved or we will be one of those from whom Jesus will turn and say "I never knew you."

In this, as in all things spiritual, we see as though through a glass, darkly. And yet, we are also given eyes and wit and perhaps even a modicum of spiritual discernment, so if we cannot judge another man's soul, we can certainly judge institutions by their actions and intellectual concepts by their consequences.

I gave the matter a fair amount of thought when writing Chapter 9 of Cuckservative, "Christianity and Cuckservativism". As my co-author, John Red Eagle, is agnostic, the task of addressing that particular topic naturally fell to me. I go into considerably more detail in the book, particularly concerning how Churchianity relates to various trends that have swept the American churches, but a few excerpts from it should help provide a better understanding of what Churchianity observably is before we attempt to define it.
Many churches have reduced Christianity to the parable of the Good Samaritan, to such an extent that their religion could be more reasonably described as Good Samaritanism than Christianity. And while they subscribe chiefly to salvation through works and societally-approved attitudes rather than faith, they nevertheless possess complete and utter faith in the intrinsic goodness of foreigners.

Churchians (for it would not be strictly accurate to describe them as Christians) are liars and deceivers. They worship the god of Babel, not the Christian God. They serve the world, not Jesus Christ.

But where does this religious obsession with improving the world through works come from, when it has been absent from Christian theology for the greater part of two thousand years? Indeed, the entire conceptual core of Christianity is fundamentally based on the nature of the world not only being fallen and imperfect and ruled by an immortal spirit of evil, but remaining that way until the Son returns, the Prince of the World is cast down, and the Kingdom of Heaven is established.

Justice, in both Greek philosophy and proper Christian theology, is “rectitude of the will”, as can be seen in Aquinas’s Summa Theologica, specifically Secunda Secundæ Partis, Question 58, Article 1. And in the Christian sense, rectitude of the will is defined by conformity with God’s will, which can be debated, but being immutable, is assuredly not defined by the ever-mutating social justice narrative.

So social justice Christianity, or Good Samaritanism, or Churchianity, all amount to the same thing: a false form of Christianity that cloaks itself in Christian rhetoric while denying both the conceptual core of Christianity and the fundamental nature of the justice to which it nominally dedicates itself. And these false forms all flow from a concept that is considerably newer than Christianity, although it is related to an older religion.

The term tikkun olam is from the rabbinic literature known as the Mishnah, which dates back to 1492 and is believed to come from an oral tradition that may be as much as a thousand years older. It appears in the phrase mip’nei tikkun ha-olam “to indicate that a practice should be followed not because it is required by Biblical law, but because it helps avoid social disharmony.”

The phrase is often translated as “for the sake of the healing of the world”, which is why the expression appears in English as a directive to “heal the world” or “fix the world”, but a better translation is “for the sake of the perfection of the world”.

In other words, the cuckservatives and other Churchians have elevated a literally extra-Biblical post-Christian concept that flies directly in the face of genuine Christian theology to a super-Scriptural level, then used it as the basis to judge both members of the Church and the Bible itself!
So, we can summarize all of this with the following definition:

Churchianity is social justice-converged pseudo-Christianity that cloaks itself in Christian rhetoric and trappings, follows the world rather than Jesus Christ, and seeks salvation through works instead of faith.

And if I can say this without sounding too eschatological, I expect it, or something very like it, will be the seed of the religion that worships Antichrist in the place of Jesus Christ.

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252 Comments:

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Anonymous DDT August 29, 2016 8:12 AM  

'Works, not faith' really sums up Churchianity well, and it seems like that's the common point between SJW Christians and 'conservative'/Churchian Christians. SJW Christians explicitly don't care about faith or any belief at all related to God or Christ. 'Conservatives'/Churchians care one hell of a lot more about works and political right-think and right-talk, which is the principle standard they judge Christians by.

By the way, for any Christians on Reddit who are so inclined, there's now an Alt Right Christian subreddit. It is brand new, but content shall be going up often.

Blogger Mr. Naron August 29, 2016 8:15 AM  

So, it's the Social Gospel of the late,19th and early 20th centuries? I thought it was more than that. It seems like it also has to do with a kind of feminized legalism the way attitudes toward foul language and drinking are bludgeoned around here.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan August 29, 2016 8:18 AM  

People virtue signal towards "authority", so negate the authority.

True story about works, I know a woman, was tops in her field a true talent, took her Catholic faith seriously or so I thought. At her parish she took charge of the project to provide housing to people with a need, and while discussing this great works I mentioned in passing that I thought the job of the church was to guide the immortal soul into heaven. She gave me the don't be silly response and yes she is divorced and getting her freak on in late middle ages.

Blogger Gaiseric August 29, 2016 8:20 AM  

Not even the parable of the Good Samaritan. As I've had to point out numerous times to acquaintances of mine, in said parable, the Good Samaritan took the victim of the thieves to the next town and paid for his upkeep for a while. He did NOT take the victim into his own home. And he really most certainly did NOT scour the desert for anyone around to invite into his home, regardless of whether they were victims of thieves, the actual thieves themselves, or completely unrelated to either except through vague geography. And then when the thieves among them raped his daughters, beheaded his sons and looted his house, he hardly chuckled to himself saying, "Those rascally desert people! We need to invite more of them!"

Blogger J A Baker August 29, 2016 8:20 AM  

"And if I can say this without sounding too eschatological, I expect it, or something very like it, will be the seed of the religion that worships Antichrist in the place of Jesus Christ."

This is already happening and is referred to as the ecumenical movement. Many churches are involved in this. I used to listen to Ravi Zachariah, but it seems lately he has been promoting on lending himself out as a speaker at a number of ecumenucal events. Usually these events are like three day conventions consisting of performances by various converged "christian" music acts and speakers from various denominations.

I'm not Catholic, but I come from Catholic stock, both sides of my family are Catholic, and while I don't judge Catholics nor do I condemn them to hell, I do disagree with much of their beleifs, particularly the beleif that the Pope represents God's will here on earth.

The Pope is a man and men are fallible, especially this most recent Pope whose words leads me to believe that he is for this ecumenical movement as well.

I used to consider myself a Baptist but I have recently thrown off that title. I fell for the trap of legalism and lordship salvation. I am thankful to have been delivered from that corrupt spiritual system by the grace of God.

I now take the position of that we are saved by Grace through Faith alone in Christ alone and once saved always saved.

I belive that a Christian's walk with and growth in Christ can only be possible if that person first has assurance in his own salvation.

That's just my two cents, and where God has led me at this point in my life.

Blogger Jewel August 29, 2016 8:21 AM  

Yeah. It's lonely being an orthodox Catholic convert these days. At least there's Ann Barnhardt. With luck and effort, we might be cell mates in the same Federal penitentiary.

Blogger Nate August 29, 2016 8:21 AM  

"seeks salvation through works instead of faith"

attention aspies:

This does not mean the guys down there helping the cajuns muck out their houses and rebuild their lives are churchians.

Anonymous Sth August 29, 2016 8:23 AM  

I like the term 'Churchian'. I went to school in a small community but did not live there, but I'm doubtful of the devoutness of most who were there. I was always amazed how a community of 3000 or so could have a dozen churches: one Catholic, a couple Baptist, a couple Lutheran, a couple Methodist and too many others to list.

I'm also turned off by the obsession with pre marital sex and how the average Christian is tied in to the statist system of marriage licenses and other nonsense. If monogamy were working there would not be so many divorces even in the Churchian circles. I don't disagree with a man/woman arrangement to raise children, but something is not working and doubling down on Churhianity is not helping.

Blogger Nate August 29, 2016 8:25 AM  

" I thought it was more than that. It seems like it also has to do with a kind of feminized legalism the way attitudes toward foul language and drinking are bludgeoned around here."

agreed. This is a very narrow version of Churchianity and certainly isn't the one we've been using for the last decade.

Primarily we have associated churchianity with feminized Christianity.

Blogger Melampus the Seer August 29, 2016 8:26 AM  

Good works are a necessary but not sufficient criteria for salvation and sanctification.

Blogger Nate August 29, 2016 8:31 AM  

"Good works are a necessary but not sufficient criteria for salvation and sanctification"

Christians don't do good works to be saved.

They do good works BECAUSE they are saved.

Only believers obey. Only those who obey believe.

Blogger S1AL August 29, 2016 8:33 AM  

My observation is that it's the Teddy Bear Jesus phenomenon writ large: heaven, but not hell; forgiveness, but not repentance; speaking in love, but absent truth; by works, but without faith or grace.

Indeed, it might be the truest expression of "taking your freedom for license" that the world has ever seen.

Niceness is not a virtue.

Blogger residentMoron August 29, 2016 8:33 AM  

NO, Melampus, good works are the fruit of salvation, not any kind of necessary condition.

Salvation is a free gift (free; unpaid for, unearned, undeserved, un-owed) provided in Christ for everyone.

The lack of good works can be a sign of spiritual immaturity (I've only just learned the gospel of salvation by faith in Christ, and am yet to learn and internalise what it means in practical terms for an adult in the faith), or it can be a sign of deception (I've been taught that salvation by faith is a matter of assent only. I say I believe, but I do not obey), or it can be a sign of despair (I've been taught a doctrine of perfection that my inability to achieve has left me with only a sense of constant failure), or perhaps other things I've not yet seen or thought of.

Blogger VD August 29, 2016 8:35 AM  

So, it's the Social Gospel of the late,19th and early 20th centuries? I thought it was more than that.

What part of "follows the world" did you find hard to understand? The world has moved on from the Social Gospel, ergo Churchianity manifests itself in different ways today. But it is essentially the same impulse and the same spirit.

Anonymous John August 29, 2016 8:35 AM  

@5
I'm not Catholic, but I come from Catholic stock, both sides of my family are Catholic, and while I don't judge Catholics nor do I condemn them to hell, I do disagree with much of their beleifs, particularly the beleif that the Pope represents God's will here on earth.

The Pope is a man and men are fallible, especially this most recent Pope whose words leads me to believe that he is for this ecumenical movement as well.


This is a misrepresentation of Catholic doctrine. We do not think that the Pope is impeccable (sinless), nor do we think he is infallible in everything he says and does, but only when he invokes the full power of the apostolic authority of St. Peter which he has inherited. The Pope isn't necessarily a saint. The purpose of the Pope is to be the one visible head of Christ's Church, so that all Christians know where to find the true Faith and the true Church; without such a visible head, you end up making the Church invisible and the Faith a matter of opinion, a "do-it-yourself" religion totally divorced from Christ and the apostles. This is what Protestants do when they pick up the bible and act as if they have the right to interpret and teach it, effectively making themselves the Pope / visible head of Christianity on earth.

Anonymous Thales August 29, 2016 8:35 AM  

"If your church is indistinguishable from Unitarian Universalism, you might be a Churchitarian..."

Blogger SteelPalm August 29, 2016 8:37 AM  

I'm secular, but based on my readings, it appears that the actual meaning of "tikkun olam" is very different than the way Social Justice Warriors have perverted it;

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/14275#.VrIXilMrKqA

Anonymous Roundtine August 29, 2016 8:38 AM  

There are a lot of progressive churches with the fig leaf of Christianity. They have sermons on global warming, lesbian priestesses, and work on issues such as fossil fuel divestment. I don't consider this churchianity (as Vox has used it) because it's so blatantly not Christian. Churchianity is more subversive, it looks like Christianity, to the point where atheists would call adherents "Jesus freaks," but the guts of the religion have been taken out and replaced with progressivism.

Blogger Timmy3 August 29, 2016 8:41 AM  

To the extent that Churchian is used, it often sounds like the rhetoric attack against Christian conservative positions by people who are not necessarily Christians themselves but motivated by politics. Thus, it is dishonest to some degree.

Blogger VD August 29, 2016 8:41 AM  

This is a misrepresentation of Catholic doctrine.

I don't give a flying rodent's posterior what it is. Drop it. Now.

The fact that someone on the Internet may or may not be wrong is not your signal to drop everything and derail the comments with an off-topic dissertation.

Blogger Johnny August 29, 2016 8:43 AM  

The problem with Good Samaritanism Christianity it tends to turn into what is called here virtue signaling, acts of conspicuous or over the top paternalism that for some substitute for more ordinary and useful behaviour.

Anonymous farmer August 29, 2016 8:43 AM  

Your conception of churchianity is clearly colored by your experience in MN. Those churches were converged decades ago.

But there is a more insidious form in bible belt areas that infects even the fundentalist and evangelical opponents of the social gospel churches you describe. And it is something whose roots in some cases go back mellenia. Invidious because in word and practice it projects fidelity to scripture while being just as corrupt.

What are its traits? It is feminist, even when purporting to oppose feminism. Usually its childbirth and divorse rates are the same as the world.

It holds to tradition over scripture. It is all about butts in the seat and wallets, not holiness. Titheing is often required. It conceives of a gentle 'invite to church' style evangelism if any at all. Street preaching is just not nice. Neither is any call to repentance, except maybe to men. It elevates pulpet preaching and the preacher above all else.

It is full of hypocrites whose children fall away and whose youth groups are dens of iniquity. Its gospel is usually of the pray a prayer, ticket to heaven style. It is very much a compartmentalized Sunday style Christianity.

If it has any political relevance it is as dups for the GOP. Often its adherants won't know where the books in their bible are and even if they do, there will be many untouchable verses they don't even know exist because their sect studiously ignore them.

Blogger tz August 29, 2016 8:44 AM  

Works that don't.
How many do anything about Abortion?
Do they spend more time lobbying politicians than doing the works themselves?
The work of the churchians is virtue signalling.
Having abandoned the real God and his Christ, whose gospel is hard (narrow is the way) they have to make something up so they can score SJ points.

Blogger The Anti-Gnostic August 29, 2016 8:47 AM  

A friend and fellow Orthodox was complaining about the ideology and hyper-scholasticism of Western theology beginning to invade the Orthodox seminaries. I said that's why you ground a Church in a People, and then it's not this arcane body of doctrine but a living, breathing way of life.

His jaw dropped open, and that was the end of the conversation. The notion of an actual Christendom is repellent to the moderns.

Anonymous PaulSacramento August 29, 2016 8:48 AM  

Churchianity seems to be what happens when "social values of the time" overrule explicit Christian doctrine.

I think that element has always tried to influence and take root in Christianity in some form or another, it is just that in the 20th and 21st century, the perfect tool now exists to do it. The Internet.
It creates a phenomena that was less viable before and that is sheer intimidation by faceless minions.

Of course true Christianity has the cure for the illness too, put your faith in The Son.
Not so long ago people died for their faith, standing up for their faith ( that, as we know is STILL happening) because their faith in The Son was strong.
Sad when our faith is so weak that we are intimidated by "social conscience" that we know to be wrong and that will not harm us physically, much less spiritually, but may inconvenience as at the "comfort" level.

Lots of comments in this thread that may open up cans' of worms too...lol.

Blogger Melampus the Seer August 29, 2016 8:48 AM  

11. Nate wrote: "Only believers obey. Only those who obey believe."

Not so. James 2 gives a comprehensive rebuttal:

What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.


The demons have faith, indeed perfect knowledge, of God and Christ. Yet, they do not obey, and they are not saved.

13. residentMoron wrote: "NO, Melampus, good works are the fruit of salvation, not any kind of necessary condition. Salvation is a free gift (free; unpaid for, unearned, undeserved, un-owed) provided in Christ for everyone."

I don't think you know what a necessary condition is. If a -> b, then b is a necessary condition for a. So, I don't think we disagree there. However, faith without works is dead. The wages of sin is death. The absence of good works implies an absence of faith.

Salvation is "free; unpaid for, unearned, undeserved, un-owed", but man must cooperate with grace. He cooperates by doing the good works that converted the pagan world: almsgiving, fasting, and keeping the prayers.

Anonymous John August 29, 2016 8:49 AM  

Churchianity is social justice-converged pseudo-Christianity that cloaks itself in Christian rhetoric and trappings, follows the world rather than Jesus Christ, and seeks salvation through works instead of faith.

I think a more succinct definition would be: Christianity emptied of its supernatural content. You can see this movement developing rapidly since the 19th century onwards, who wanted a humanist "religion" based solely on reason and love of humanity. Churchianity is the Church without God, with Man as the object of devotion as opposed to God. The feminist, SJW crap is not the core of Churchianity, but only its contemporary trappings; the essence of Churchianity is humanism, churches turned into "communal centers" rather than houses of worship.

Anonymous ZhukovG August 29, 2016 8:50 AM  

If you conform your Christian doctrine to the world rather than conforming your world to Christian doctrine; you are a Churchian.

Blogger Earl August 29, 2016 8:51 AM  

At first I wanted to quibble with "salvation by works" but then I thought about churchians thinking to themselves that "anyone not in agreement with social justice is probably not a Christian/evil/going to hell/Republican." Seems likely for many of them to see us that way.

(Then again, I'm not sure they're not spineless enough to believe in hell.)

Blogger Whisker biscuit August 29, 2016 8:52 AM  

If you want to witness some real feminized Christianity, attend a Pentacostal service on a Wed or Sun.

The effiiminant "men" playing 40 minutes of ridiculously loud love songs to Jesus; the preacher with no Elders or Deacons rambling on about tongues, exalting your wife to Jesus-like status, and the flock convulsing and doing spontaneous wind sprints is a sight to behold.

What sucks for me is I married into a family that runs a YUGE Pentacostal church here in our community. We stopped going well over a year ago, which makes the family get-togethers interesting....

Blogger tz August 29, 2016 8:53 AM  

Another strain is the "we're going to be Raptured - must support Israel to have Christ return". I think Rafael Cruz (Ted's dad) is in there.

The main split was in the 1960s, but cracks appeared before. From the reformation through the early 1900s there was doctrinal development, but continuity.
Today, it is bizarre. "We can't do anything about the planned parenthood death camp down the street, so lets invite some homeless drug addicts in".

Blogger Nate August 29, 2016 8:56 AM  

"The demons have faith, indeed perfect knowledge, of God and Christ. Yet, they do not obey, and they are not saved."

its an old saying mate... but it will make you feel better... let us reword it

"Only Those who love God obey. And only those who obey love God"

That revised version is particular nice when we recall that the Prophet Nathan, in his rebuke of King David first accused him of despising God.

Blogger Dexter August 29, 2016 8:56 AM  

Very simple. Leftism subverted Christianity and is using it for Leftist ends. Churchianity is Leftism masquerading as Christianity.

Blogger Nate August 29, 2016 8:58 AM  

"Churchianity seems to be what happens when "social values of the time" overrule explicit Christian doctrine."

Correct.

The primary goal of the Churchian is to be perceived as a Good Person.

The primary goal of Christianity is Love your God with all your heart, and to love your neighbor as yourself.

Blogger Melampus the Seer August 29, 2016 8:59 AM  

29. Earls wrote: "At first I wanted to quibble with "salvation by works" but then I thought about churchians thinking to themselves that "anyone not in agreement with social justice is probably not a Christian/evil/going to hell/Republican." Seems likely for many of them to see us that way."

Yes. The SJW church makes works an entirely sufficient condition for salvation and sanctification. Unmoored from faith and the traditions of Christendom, the SJW churchgoer doesn't know what works are good in the Christian sense. Thus, they float about in the storms of social approval and fashionable politics, doing whatever pleases their worldly masters.

Blogger tz August 29, 2016 9:01 AM  

They will deny salvation through works, but then will say "everyone accepted Christ and once saved, always saved". With nothing more to do for their salvation (like working it out with fear and trembling), they look for something else to do. The world and the devil suggest social work. Worse, as their own evil in giving the sick, elderly, and poor to leviathan has created many evils, they are stuck with few things they are willing to do.

Blogger dc.sunsets August 29, 2016 9:01 AM  

Virtue signaling has a lot in common with how typical (mass) women continuously signal in their eternal battle with other women in the context of hypergamy.

I find it interesting that your (VD) dating of the Mishnah (1492) is so close to the beginning of the Lutheran Reformation. I can't recall just which Protestant sect adopted this, but IIRC one of them explicitly requires that adherents obtain membership in The Elect (the only people who will be saved by Christ) via works.

I like the Dark Enlightenment insight that today's Progressivist Cult (Churchianity being its religious version, democratic socialism being its "secular") traces its lineage all the way back to Luther, via the Pilgrims.

It was always there, just awaiting a long period of mass-adoption of the insane belief that resources are unlimited, fueled by the monetary madness of the last 50 years amplified by the secular downtrend in bond yields that began in August of 1981.

Blogger Bobloblaw August 29, 2016 9:04 AM  

this heresy is demonstrated in africa where feeding the hungry surpassed bringing the gospel.the gospel can change an entire nation. just feeding the hungry makes lots of boy soldiers.
the world cannot bear the blight of the feral human

Anonymous DDT August 29, 2016 9:05 AM  

Very simple. Leftism subverted Christianity and is using it for Leftist ends. Churchianity is Leftism masquerading as Christianity.

It's not that simple, because you have a lot of anti-Leftists who are still Churchians.

Anonymous Eric the Red August 29, 2016 9:09 AM  

The attempt to force a heaven on earth will invariably result in a hell on earth. And then there's all that feminine virtue-signalling.

Why depend on the living Jesus Christ, when you've got Churchianity going for you instead?

Blogger mushroom August 29, 2016 9:11 AM  

A local pastor of my denomination was on the news a couple of years ago talking about his very large church as being "the third place" -- home, work, church -- for people. The church has a gym and a Starbucks (or something like that) inside it.

Essentially, he is in the business of making "well-rounded" people who are compliant and well-adjusted. I'm sure he believes wholeheartedly in Romans 13 wherein all government is established by God and good Christians ought to be obedient, long-suffering citizens. A flood of illegal immigrant criminals is God's way of bringing those most in need in contact with the Good News of God's Love. He probably has tattooed girls with diverse husbands singing and jumping up and down on stage during the worship service.

When you say "churchianity", this is what comes to my mind.

Blogger Phillip George August 29, 2016 9:11 AM  

A rather better thing a supreme court justice said about pornography was [paraphrased] "I can't define it but I know it when I see it"

all the same that was a good effort, and like the pornography quote, maybe no-one can even explain any better as to how or why.

The unbridgeable chasm between works and grace. The real/ genuine brotherhood of man that is universal, global, joins us:

sinners saved by Grace. 2000 year, works like brand new.

Anonymous Peter Grant August 29, 2016 9:14 AM  

I like Bob Mumford's definition of secular humanism:

"Secular humanism is what happens when the world evangelizes the church."

Word.

Blogger mushroom August 29, 2016 9:15 AM  

A local pastor of my denomination was on the news a couple of years ago talking about his very large church as being "the third place" -- home, work, church -- for people. The church has a gym and a Starbucks (or something like that) inside it.

Essentially, he is in the business of making "well-rounded" people who are compliant and well-adjusted. I'm sure he believes wholeheartedly in Romans 13 wherein all government is established by God and good Christians ought to be obedient, long-suffering citizens. A flood of illegal immigrant criminals is God's way of bringing those most in need in contact with the Good News of God's Love. He probably has tattooed girls with diverse husbands singing and jumping up and down on stage during the worship service.

When you say "churchianity", this is what comes to my mind.

Blogger Jew613 August 29, 2016 9:18 AM  

Vox, the Mishnah was not written in 1492. While you are correct it was a series of oral traditions it was compiled in written form in the 2nd century by Rav Yehuda HaNasi.

Anonymous SciVo August 29, 2016 9:19 AM  

From prior discussions, Churchianity preaches a Gospel of Nice that would not make anyone socially uncomfortable at the golf club. Its adherents are thus absolutely of the world, not just in the world; and are therefore in rebellion to God.

We have also talked about how it is a gnosticism, which is a whole interesting discussion in its own right.

farmer wrote:What are its traits? It is feminist, even when purporting to oppose feminism. Usually its childbirth and divorse rates are the same as the world.

It holds to tradition over scripture. It is all about butts in the seat and wallets, not holiness. Titheing is often required. It conceives of a gentle 'invite to church' style evangelism if any at all. Street preaching is just not nice. Neither is any call to repentance, except maybe to men. It elevates pulpet preaching and the preacher above all else.

It is full of hypocrites whose children fall away and whose youth groups are dens of iniquity. Its gospel is usually of the pray a prayer, ticket to heaven style. It is very much a compartmentalized Sunday style Christianity.


If you're talking about what I call Simonism, which preaches the Prosperity Gospel, I consider that more of a con game than a religion. It relieves marks of their money by purporting to teach them how to cast magic spells in the name of Jesus, and its primary scripture is Casting Bread On Waters.

Anonymous BGKB August 29, 2016 9:19 AM  

OT: Huffpoo fires employee for saying HH https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/08/29/huffpo-writer-finds-out-what-happens-when-you-mention-hillarys-health/

Black Panther leader Quandel X denounces bath house Barry, endorses TRUMP https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/08/27/donald-trumps-outreach-has-caught-activist-quanell-xs-attention/


Anonymous johnc August 29, 2016 9:25 AM  

Christianity today is fubar'd in the truest sense of the term.

If you pulled any devout Christian out of some random time in history (like 13th century or whatever) and dropped him in an average American "Christian" church, I'd bet he would feel like he was hearing a foreign religion.

Blogger Phillip George August 29, 2016 9:27 AM  

that is OT BGKB - but with technology they can now do entirely digital simulation Hillary. They don't even need a physical Hillary. CGI Hillary is in perfect health.

Christians, the real deal, will always point to "better off, rather than better than"

delusions of moral adequacy/ supremacy/ aka muhammadism piety isn't there.



Blogger Unknown August 29, 2016 9:30 AM  

Churchianity = Christless Christianity.

Interestingly, nationalism, even if it's based on Christian teachings, is included in Horton's definition.

Blogger Dexter August 29, 2016 9:30 AM  

If you pulled any devout Christian out of some random time in history (like 13th century or whatever) and dropped him in an average American "Christian" church, I'd bet he would feel like he was hearing a foreign religion.

You pulled an average adult American out of the 1930s, 1940s, or 1950s and dropped him in a 2016 American "Christian" church, he'd say "HOLY SHIT THE COMMIES TOOK OVER!"

Blogger Dexter August 29, 2016 9:32 AM  

It's not that simple, because you have a lot of anti-Leftists who are still Churchians.

It is that simple because the whole point of the Left subverting the Church was to capture and use the dummies who think they are anti-Leftist.

Anonymous dr kill August 29, 2016 9:40 AM  

I now take the position of that we are saved by Grace through Faith alone in Christ alone and once saved always saved.

I belive that a Christian's walk with and growth in Christ can only be possible if that person first has assurance in his own salvation.

That's just my two cents, and where God has led me at this point in my life.

This is exactly what I was taught in the PC (USA) as a lad in the 60's. What am I to make of a Church that commands ministers to preform gay marriages in the same building where I was baptized? As I tell my Mom, This means the worst person in the world can accept JC as his Lord and Savior on his deathbed and be admitted to Heaven. It's like the boiling frog metaphor, Mom's been so close all these years she didn't even see it happening.

Anonymous Mark Call August 29, 2016 9:40 AM  

Here's a simpler, more readily-applicable definition:

'Churchianity' is a corporate 'church', whose creator is the Almighty State, rather than the Creator and Author of Scripture.

As such, it worships the creation rather than the Creator.

And for a quick check, just see if it has a 501c3 tax exemption (in the US) and a set of corporate papers confirming who it really serves.

Oh, and it very much tends to ignore “Scripture as Written” and prefer a version that men and the women and children who rule over them say He SHOULD have Written, if only YHVH were as smart as they are.

Blogger SemiSpook37 August 29, 2016 9:40 AM  

As a Catholic, obviously this is a rather touchy subject. Up until the 1960s, the Faith had remained rather constant in terms of adherence to the basic tenets (i.e. the six precepts of the Church). Casti Concubii, as an example, was a direct rebuke of the 1930 Lambec Conference that saw the Anglicans drop the resistance to contraception. Pope St. Pius X rightly denounced Modernism as an evil influence that was slowly infecting the clerical ranks of the Church.

And then Vatican II happened. It is rumored that upon his deathbed, Pope John XXIII, realizing that the proceedings had been infiltrated by communists and other such Modernists, demanded that the council itself be stopped. Between the debate whether the council itself was pastoral or doctrinal in nature (most tend to agree it was only pastoral) and the inherent ambiguity in many of the documents (partly what people use to make the "Spirit of Vatican II" excuse), it's easy to see where the Churchian adherents felt empowered.

The sheer irony is that while the Churchians finally have their representative in Bergolio, there is a slowly building movement afoot amongst those of my generation to bring the Faith back to what it actually is, not what the Churchians want it to be. The chief issue is the actual Liturgy. Personally, I want to see the Pauline Missal abolished and return to the Traditional Mass, but I would just be happy with returning the "ad orientum" stance (priest leading the congregation in prayer) as a start.

That's what the Churchians in the Catholic Church seem to be missing: the Liturgy has never been, and never will be, about them. It's always been about giving thanks to Almighty God THROUGH the sacrifice of Jesus Christ at Cavalry.

Anonymous DDT August 29, 2016 9:41 AM  

It is that simple because the whole point of the Left subverting the Church was to capture and use the dummies who think they are anti-Leftist.

I admit that Churchians on the right are at best idiots, but treating them as Leftists isn't going to work. They'll flash their right-wing credentials - "But I oppose gay marriage!" "I'm anti-abortion!" "I believe in Christ resurrected!" It's one thing to regard them as useful idiots of the left. It's another thing to call it leftism masquerading as Christianity, especially when there are full blown left-wing Christians out there, complete with 'Jesus rose spiritually, abortion is a sacrament, gay marriage is holy' talk.

Churchians are useful idiots of leftists, but that doesn't make them leftists. Which is part of the problem. They didn't subvert people into leftists, they subverted them into tools.

Blogger SemiSpook37 August 29, 2016 9:44 AM  

johnc wrote:Christianity today is fubar'd in the truest sense of the term.

If you pulled any devout Christian out of some random time in history (like 13th century or whatever) and dropped him in an average American "Christian" church, I'd bet he would feel like he was hearing a foreign religion.


Well, obviously, because by that metric, they would either be Catholic or Orthodox, and they would never have even imagined someone having the stones to tell the Vatican off.

OpenID basementhomebrewer August 29, 2016 9:55 AM  

TL;DR version. If you find out someone did something kind for someone else and did it subtly or tried to hide their charity = Probably a real Christian.

If someone did (or, more often, convinced someone else to do) something kind for someone and made sure to advertise that fact to everyone they could = Definitely a Churchian

Blogger residentMoron August 29, 2016 9:57 AM  

Melampus

Neither in Nate's, nor mine, nor Vox's original formulation, was there implicit or explicit denial of the need for good works.

The point is that even James' construction "Show me your faith without works, and I'll show you my faith by my works" necessarily demands that the faith comes first, the works as a consequence of the faith.

I say "even" because Luther, for example, having been convicted of the gospel of salvation by faith alone, wanted to exclude the book of James from the bible. Plainly, reading and understanding are not the same thing.

"Don't call me stupid. Stupid people don't read Nietzsche!"

"Yes, they do, Otto: they just don't understand it."

Salvation by works is a lie. A pose. A self deception. True religion has a simple set of rules, but it is not a simple set of rules.

Blogger dc.sunsets August 29, 2016 9:58 AM  

@56, let's not get too nostalgic for yesteryear's Christians. If you buy Tuchman's "A Dark Mirror," even when Christians took their faith quite literally there were many who gave in to sin. The anecdote of the knight who returned from war to find his wife miraculously pregnant (with the Priest's kid) sounds remarkably consistent with today. Humans haven't changed all that much. Modernity only offers the impulsive mind lots more latitude in ways to indulge in vice (or varieties of sin.)

I, the agnostic, recognize that eschewing sin is about what a man or woman chooses on the inside, not about how they one-up those around them. Virtue is, again, what one does when there's no one else (other than God) to judge. The moment ones actions are dictated by competition and signaling in the social realm, any mention of Christ is just part of the con. As noted, by this metric, finding an organized Christian church these days is probably like finding a 19-year-old virgin girl on Epstein's Island.

Blogger jamsco August 29, 2016 10:00 AM  

“I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away ... If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.

(John 15:1,2,6 ESV)

Anonymous Gen. Kong August 29, 2016 10:01 AM  

tz wrote:They will deny salvation through works, but then will say "everyone accepted Christ and once saved, always saved". With nothing more to do for their salvation (like working it out with fear and trembling), they look for something else to do. The world and the devil suggest social work. Worse, as their own evil in giving the sick, elderly, and poor to leviathan has created many evils, they are stuck with few things they are willing to do.

This is an excellent observation. The churchians have delivered the widows, orphans, elderly, sick and poor into the tender hands of government (owned by Satan's leviathan) so they can either improve the infrastructure of the third world for the same leviathan, wage war on Mohammedans for it (but aid and abet the slaughter of the small Christian remnant in the levant and the balkans while waving the Banana Empire's flag, or profit from leviathan's colonization project to populate formerly Christian lands with Musloids and savages. The nominal "Vicar of Christ" is a wholly-owned step-n-fetchit for George Soros, the largest land owner in his native Argentina, as noted by Barnhardt here.

Blogger pyrrhus August 29, 2016 10:01 AM  

It seems to me that the major outward signs of churchianity are 1.embarassment at the supernatural aspects of Christianity, 2. constant virtue signaling, like good works in Africa, not in the west, 3. the cult of "nice", and 4. women in the pulpit....

Anonymous Mark Call August 29, 2016 10:02 AM  

Here's a simpler, more readily-applicable definition:

'Churchianity' is a corporate 'church', whose creator is the Almighty State, rather than the Creator and Author of Scripture.

As such, it worships the creation rather than the Creator.

And for a quick check, just see if it has a 501c3 tax exemption (in the US) and a set of corporate papers confirming who it really serves.

Oh, and it very much tends to ignore “Scripture as Written” and prefer a version that men and the women and children who rule over them say He SHOULD have Written, if only YHVH were as smart as they are.

Blogger Cash August 29, 2016 10:02 AM  

I've been going with a different understanding this whole time. I assumed that Churchians were caught up in the trappings of church over the teachings of Christianity.

Things like "being nice" became more important than things like doing right.

I still don't see it as a political position but a shallow Christianity that CAN be converged with social justice.

Blogger Anonymous-9 August 29, 2016 10:04 AM  

I hear truth in this blog post, and my heart quakes. Tears here.

Blogger SemiSpook37 August 29, 2016 10:04 AM  

@59

Not disagreeing with you there. It was more of a casual observation, and you're only roughly 150-200 years removed from the Great Schism that split the Catholics and the Orthodox.

Blogger Cash August 29, 2016 10:05 AM  

I've talked some here about fighting against true SJW's invading my church.

I call them Marx with a Jesus mask.

It gets the point across to a handful of the educated.

Blogger Escoffier August 29, 2016 10:06 AM  

I've been saying for at least a decade that Progressivism entered the Church like a silent deadly gas and simply removed Jesus Christ as the central pillar.

Anonymous A Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents August 29, 2016 10:08 AM  

The primary goal of the Churchian is to be perceived as a Good Person.

Church of Nice. "Do you recycle?" a more important issue in some churches than "Do you follow Christ?"; in the world, and of the world.

Also a Gospel of Stuff, where giving Stuff to people is sure to bring them closer to God. Do not confuse the endless giving of Stuff to people with the act of actually feeding the hungry, or launching a flatboat to rescue a neighbor in the bayou.

The convergence runs rather deep in some churches.

Blogger VD August 29, 2016 10:09 AM  

Vox, the Mishnah was not written in 1492. While you are correct it was a series of oral traditions it was compiled in written form in the 2nd century by Rav Yehuda HaNasi.

First known full Mishnah printed in Naples Italy, 1492

Blogger Anonymous-9 August 29, 2016 10:10 AM  

Vox,
I don't think you need to play Christian Police. Just speak the truth as you see it. Many feel the same way but have no words to describe what they see and feel. Those need only the light of a small candle to find the path. Light small candles. That's enough.

Blogger Whisker biscuit August 29, 2016 10:11 AM  

Exactly! I've learned more on this blog than I have attending any church!

Blogger praetorian August 29, 2016 10:11 AM  

It does not fall to me to even be the judge of my own Christianity, as we are all fallen and none of us know whether we will be saved or we will be one of those from whom Jesus will turn and say "I never knew you."

Amen.

dc.sunsets wrote:Virtue signaling has a lot in common with how typical (mass) women continuously signal in their eternal battle with other women in the context of hypergamy.

Underrated post.

J A Baker wrote:
I'm not Catholic, but I come from Catholic stock, both sides of my family are Catholic, and while I don't judge Catholics nor do I condemn them to hell, I do disagree with much of their beleifs, particularly the beleif that the Pope represents God's will here on earth.

The Pope is a man and men are fallible, especially this most recent Pope whose words leads me to believe that he is for this ecumenical movement as well.


You have to come back.

Anonymous AQuickCheck August 29, 2016 10:12 AM  

Here's a simpler, more readily-applicable definition:

'Churchianity' is a corporate 'church', whose creator is the Almighty State, rather than the Creator and Author of Scripture.

As such, it worships the creation rather than the Creator.

And for a quick check, just see if it has a 501c3 tax exemption (in the US) and a set of corporate papers confirming who it really serves.

Oh, and it very much tends to ignore “Scripture as Written” and prefer a version that men and the women and children who rule over them say He SHOULD have Written, if only YHVH were as smart as they are.

Blogger praetorian August 29, 2016 10:14 AM  

SemiSpook37 wrote:And then Vatican II happened. It is rumored that upon his deathbed, Pope John XXIII, realizing that the proceedings had been infiltrated by communists and other such Modernists, demanded that the council itself be stopped.

(((communists)))

Blogger Shimshon August 29, 2016 10:17 AM  

"First known full Mishnah printed in Naples Italy, 1492"

Come on Vox. It's just a coincidence that the first printed Mishna was published soon after the invention of the printing press? It's pretty well documented that manuscripts existed for centuries prior to that. The famous burning of 24 carriage loads of Jewish religious manuscripts in 13th century France (the Talmud is specifically noted but obviously other works were included; this was considered one of the great tragedies of European Jewish history) is enough to disabuse such a notion.

Anonymous DDT August 29, 2016 10:21 AM  

The primary goal of the Churchian is to be perceived as a Good Person.

I think this is a strong distillation. Churchians place a priority on perception. If you disapprove of their stance on abortion, or gay marriage, or anything else, they will put a lot of emphasis on reframing, redefining, recommunicating to try and maximize their beneficial perceptions. And they will stretch things to the limit on this front.

To get an idea of the limit, look at a David French family photo.

Blogger Nick S August 29, 2016 10:22 AM  

Churchians are self indulgent herd animals first. Fellowship dinners supersede the Great Commission.

Anonymous A Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents August 29, 2016 10:25 AM  

There is also a strong tendency to cheap grace in Churchianity; forgiveness without repentance. It's very feminine.

Anonymous Gen. Kong August 29, 2016 10:25 AM  

DDT wrote:It is that simple because the whole point of the Left subverting the Church was to capture and use the dummies who think they are anti-Leftist.

I admit that Churchians on the right are at best idiots, but treating them as Leftists isn't going to work. They'll flash their right-wing credentials - "But I oppose gay marriage!" "I'm anti-abortion!" "I believe in Christ resurrected!" It's one thing to regard them as useful idiots of the left. It's another thing to call it leftism masquerading as Christianity, especially when there are full blown left-wing Christians out there, complete with 'Jesus rose spiritually, abortion is a sacrament, gay marriage is holy' talk.

Churchians are useful idiots of leftists, but that doesn't make them leftists. Which is part of the problem. They didn't subvert people into leftists, they subverted them into tools.


Useful-idiots certainly aren't rightists. They're 'conservatives' who've conserved nothing. The leftists in charge shout "squirrel!" and off they run - perhaps to enlist in the marines to provide aid to ISIS (who they're told they're fighting) in Syria, or to destabilize Muslim lands to facilitate the invasion of their hometown by rapefugees. They refuse to see the Banana Empire for the pure evil it is. Yes, leftist is not correct term for them, strictly speaking. Even so, the 'conservative' notions they think they stand for boil down to unprincipled exceptions to their underlying liberalism (leftism).

Anonymous Rather, Not August 29, 2016 10:25 AM  

As a formerly devout catholic, now atheist, I will follow Shimshon's wise advice to stay out of Christian theologizing. However, I do want to express my appreciation for Christianity. I know that my journey to a philosophical moral system is a road far too few are capable of making to ever form a society. Given the realities...I choose a Christian society as far superior over any other, especially the marxist inspired atheist versions of hell on earth. Thank you for allowing me in. Although I am not of you, I will fight for you.

Blogger Whisker biscuit August 29, 2016 10:27 AM  

Listen to K-Love for a day, and you'll hear Churchianity.

Blogger Mountain Man August 29, 2016 10:27 AM  

"It does not fall to me to even be the judge of my own Christianity, as we are all fallen and none of us know whether we will be saved or we will be one of those from whom Jesus will turn and say "I never knew you.""

Sobering thoughts.
I know you understand/know this but its worth repeating: Always remember that it is the grace of God given to us by the blood sacrifice of His Son Jesus that saves.
Grace and Grace Alone !
Im reminded of a recent sermon by my recently deceased pastor. He said "when you stand before the Father , Jesus reaches into the closet and puts his coat on you , and the Father looks at you and says - thats my boy"
Its a simple profound illustration that has given me great comfort when my own faith can seem weak and in doubt.

The reality is that any faith that discounts or minimizes the necessity of Christ is a false faith.

Anonymous BGKB August 29, 2016 10:28 AM  

Hey Vox have you been talking to an AE? https://www.lewrockwell.com/lrc-blog/blacks-economically-illiterate-whites/

"An individual who could best be described as part of the “alt right” has challenged me on the concept of democratic policies leading to economic collapse... Would you happen to know of a city dominated by whites that has seen economic collapse because of democrat- Keynesian policies? Or would you be able to explain why Portland – despite being incredibly pro-democrat and such – has not seen the collapse that other major cities have? Thank you for your time, sir. AE"

Anonymous Mark Call August 29, 2016 10:29 AM  

This is NOT an anonymous comment. But I do not believe Vox to be a coward, and I am curious what is SO DAMN THREATING about a post offering an alternative definition for 'churchianity'.

I have been posting to this thread longer than 99% of the readers here, and longer than you've been 'moderating'.

To the Vile Faceless (and apparently you left out 'Cowardly') Moderator: If you intend to ban me, at least have the integrity to do so openly!!!!

Mark Call
Colorado
www.markniwot.com
www.hebrewnationonline.com

Blogger SarahsDaughter August 29, 2016 10:31 AM  

Excellent timing for me to share with my daughter after a discussion yesterday:
Daughter (D): "They are like the most religious family I know of"
Me: "Oh? They believe in Jesus *more* than other believers?"
D: "No. But they've adopted like 7 kids"
Other Daughter: "Yeah, if you see a really black kid in town, it's probably one of theirs." (small town 93% white)
D: "So what would you call that, I know 'more religious' isn't right..."
Me: "We call that misguided"

Anonymous DDT August 29, 2016 10:31 AM  

Useful-idiots certainly aren't rightists. They're 'conservatives' who've conserved nothing.

I think we're going down a rabbit hole here. I just want it realized that Churchians include a number of people who will spout their right-wing, even sincere, views at a person - but they're still Churchians. And many Churchians, I think, just need to be woken up. It's not like they're defiant in their Churchianism many times. Many don't even know an alternative.

Anonymous Mark Call August 29, 2016 10:32 AM  

Here's a simpler, more readily-applicable definition:

'Churchianity' is a corporate 'church', whose creator is the Almighty State, rather than the Creator and Author of Scripture.

As such, it worships the creation rather than the Creator.

And for a quick check, just see if it has a 501c3 tax exemption (in the US) and a set of corporate papers confirming who it really serves.

Oh, and it very much tends to ignore “Scripture as Written” and prefer a version that men and the women and children who rule over them say He SHOULD have Written, if only YHVH were as smart as they are.

Anonymous johnc August 29, 2016 10:33 AM  

@76

In general humans are herd animals, it's just human nature. We need to accept that and use it to our advantage.

When the prevailing wisdom is that everyone should just make up everything for himself, it's only natural that the herd is going to follow the leader that tickles his ears the most.

Blogger Leo Littlebook in Shenzhen August 29, 2016 10:35 AM  

Vox has described Western Churchianity, which is not the same as the definition of churchian.

A churchian is one who insincerely claims the mantle of Christian while remaining mostly worldly.

So a Chinese pagan who is "also" Christian is a churchian, as is a WWII German Nazi pseudo-Christian, as is an MTD post-modern American SWPL.

Sincere belief in an anti-mainstream Christianity different than the original is a denomination, heresy or cult.

Churchian is the equivalent of "poser" in punk rock.

Anonymous Watchfull1 August 29, 2016 10:35 AM  

With Churchians, there's usually a lot of references to Bible verses about helping the "stranger."

Anonymous FrancisFrancis August 29, 2016 10:41 AM  

No God. No importance. Christianity is delusion

Blogger Quadko August 29, 2016 10:44 AM  

Christianity is cross-cultural, so inside a culture you'll get various local Christian subcultures.

But Christianity is personally expensive, so give a Christian subculture some time (and maybe a few generations) and the expensive stuff can get trimmed - but then it's just a worldly subculture.

Churchianity is a modern western group of these purely cultural groups.

That also explains why the Christians stuck in such subcultures are always aiming for "revival, return to roots, or back to fundamentals." God can and has done that, but He's just as likely to convert a bunch of barbarians and leave the dwindling remnant's subculture to wither and die.

Blogger Sam Lively August 29, 2016 10:47 AM  

@59

I think you should read more than just Tuchman's A Distant Mirror to get an idea of medieval Christianity. That book reads like nihilism porn - it's no wonder that it was a formative influence on Rape Squared's perception of the era.

Blogger Anonymous-9 August 29, 2016 10:49 AM  

Blog request, please: How to find an authentic church.

Blogger dc.sunsets August 29, 2016 10:52 AM  

@83 Misguided? I suppose.

Like you, my wife and I discussed with our sons our insights regarding why people did what they did.

A corollary to Actions to Signal Virtue ("good works") is one of my favorites: "Trying to be different for the sake of being different is the essence of conformity."

People who are conspicuous in their Good Works are full of shit.

Blogger Josh August 29, 2016 10:53 AM  

Blog request, please: How to find an authentic church.

Find a local RUF chapter and ask them.

Alternatively, find a church that has a strong commitment to both community and action.

Anonymous Stephen J. August 29, 2016 10:53 AM  

C.S. Lewis, as always, gives his fictional devil Screwtape a remarkably salient point:

"About the general connection between Christianity and politics, our [the devils'] position is more delicate. Certainly we do not want men to allow their Christianity to flow over into their political life, for the establishment of anything like a really just society would be a major disaster. On the other hand we do want, and want very much, to make men treat Christianity as a means; preferably, of course, as a means to their own advancement, but, failing that, as a means to anything -- even to social justice. The thing to do is to get a man at first to value social justice as a thing which the Enemy demands, and then work him on to the stage at which he values Christianity because it may produce social justice. For the Enemy will not be used as a convenience. Men or nations who think they can revive the Faith in order to make a good society might just as well think they can use the stairs of Heaven as a short cut to the nearest chemist’s shop. Fortunately it is quite easy to coax humans round this little corner. Only today I have found a passage in a Christian writer where he recommends his own version of Christianity on the ground that “only such a faith can outlast the death of old cultures and the birth of new civilisations”. You see the little rift? “Believe this, not because it is true, but for some other reason.” That’s the game."

From which I propose the following definition: "Churchianity" is the state of mind in which love of God is treated as a means to the end of improving the world, rather than in which improving the world is treated as a means to the end of loving God.

Anonymous BGKB August 29, 2016 10:54 AM  

Jews drink own kool aid, http://www.unz.com/isteve/jerusalem-post-will-too-many-israeli-children-lead-to-demographic-disaster/

Blogger SemiSpook37 August 29, 2016 10:55 AM  

@73

Absolutely. Not everybody converts with the best of intentions, and that, quite frankly, is very disheartening, if not diabolical.

Blogger Anonymous-9 August 29, 2016 10:57 AM  

93.
Thank you.

Blogger Anonymous-9 August 29, 2016 10:57 AM  

I still want a blog post, though.

Blogger Matamoros August 29, 2016 10:57 AM  

I would change it slightly:

Churchianity is social justice-converged pseudo-Christianity that cloaks itself in Christian rhetoric and trappings, follows the world rather than Jesus Christ, and seeks salvation through rhetoric instead of faith.

Blogger Brian H August 29, 2016 10:58 AM  

I'm also starting to notice the different flavors Churchianity comes in.

I've long been well-aware of the more explicit leftist tenets that have pervaded the mainline protestant churches. Woman clergy, gay marriage, endless tolerance, etc.

But I'm waking up to the fact that many of the bigger 'bible believing' churches prefer to largely ignore the big existential issues even though they regularly preach heavily out of scripture. They'll spend an entire month preaching a series about some tedious theme from the gospels, quoting large passages left and right.

But you can go all year without hearing a word from the pulpit explicitly discussing abortion, homosexuality, leftism, globalism, etc. If it has any implication to political stances, forget about it, you'll only get a casual mention once in a blue moon if you're lucky.

Blogger Matamoros August 29, 2016 10:59 AM  

So, it's the Social Gospel of the late,19th and early 20th centuries? I thought it was more than that.

The Social Gospel is an updated Puritan "do-goodism" so it is a continuity.

Blogger overcaffeinated August 29, 2016 11:05 AM  

This seems like a similar concept: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immanentize_the_eschaton?wprov=sfla1

Blogger J A Baker August 29, 2016 11:11 AM  

For myself, I believe that when a person becomes a Christian, though they may still struggle with a sin or sins, they have had a change of heart about that sin and they call it what it is which is sin, you certainly don't wish to continue sinning, you certainly don't encourage others to do those same things, you don't approve of it or promote it and you don't celebrate it either. You take a stance on it in call sin, sin.

Having said that, we struggle daily with sin, but now we have Christ to help us and to pick us back up when we stumble.

It is like when Peter walked on water as long as he kept his eyes on Jesus, but as soon as Peter looked away he sank, but Peter did not get back up on the waves by himself, no Jesus reached out and picked him up.

As Christians we need to have faith in the power of Jesus to save us, especially when we need him the most, when we aren't even looking to him and have fallen back into our sins.

Blogger synp August 29, 2016 11:12 AM  

VD wrote:Vox, the Mishnah was not written in 1492. While you are correct it was a series of oral traditions it was compiled in written form in the 2nd century by Rav Yehuda HaNasi.

First known full Mishnah printed in Naples Italy, 1492

No, the Talmud includes the Mishnah plus later commentary (gemarah and other parts). The earliest complete Talmud that survives is the Munich Talmud:

http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/bsb00003409/images/index.html

They styles of the Mishnah and the later parts are very distinctive, so the dating of the finalizing of the Mishnah to to the third century seems reasonable.

Blogger Nick S August 29, 2016 11:13 AM  

johnc wrote:@76

In general humans are herd animals, it's just human nature. We need to accept that and use it to our advantage.

When the prevailing wisdom is that everyone should just make up everything for himself, it's only natural that the herd is going to follow the leader that tickles his ears the most.


Right. Exactly why I included the word 'first'; as in consciously prioritized importance.

Blogger CM August 29, 2016 11:14 AM  

A churchian is one who insincerely claims the mantle of Christian while remaining mostly worldly.

I don't agree. Christian-in-name-only is very different from Churchians.

Nominal Christians call themselves that, may show up on sundays, but largely, their faith has no impact on their daily life.

Churchians DO allow their beliefs to impact their lives. They are active, fervent, and as long as you stay away from the major issues where problems pop up, come across as genuine Christians.

Its when certain theological issues come up where rather than seek to understand and accept scripture at its word, they theologize it to irrelevance and neutrality, erecting their own extra-biblical sensibilities in its place. Such as in areas of divorce, wifely submission, female ordination, slavery, and globalism. It is not limited to these examples, but are issues that have come up in recent times with large and loud fervor.

Blogger bob k. mando August 29, 2016 11:14 AM  

VD
have elevated a literally extra-Biblical post-Christian concept that flies directly in the face of genuine Christian theology to a super-Scriptural level, then used it as the basis to judge both members of the Church and the Bible itself!



hunh.

you notice how that is a direct equivalent to the way Law is practiced today; in that Not Law is elevated to a super-Constitutional level, then is used as the basis to judge both citizens and the Constitution itself.

so weird, it almost looks intentional.



17. SteelPalm August 29, 2016 8:37 AM
I'm secular, but based on my readings, it appears that the actual meaning of "tikkun olam" is very different than the way Social Justice Warriors have perverted it;



i don't think any here are overly surprised by that. subvert first the Jew, then the Christian, then the Law. all through the repeated use of teaching people that they should prefer the Bitter over the Sweet ... but telling them that the Bitter actually is the Sweet.



39. DDT August 29, 2016 9:05 AM
It's not that simple, because you have a lot of anti-Leftists who are still Churchians.



being Conservative does not make you anti-Left.


as Chesterton said:
“All conservatism is based upon the idea that if you leave things alone you leave them as they are. But... if you leave a thing alone you leave it to a torrent of change.”

Blogger Unknown August 29, 2016 11:17 AM  

"Churchianity" is the state of mind in which love of God is treated as a means to the end of improving the world, rather than in which improving the world is treated as a means to the end of loving God.

This is good.

Or put a slightly different way - "those who believe that loving the world is God's purpose rather than believing loving God is the world's purpose."

The SJW and the nationalist both fit in the former category.

Blogger synp August 29, 2016 11:17 AM  

So they're churches who believe in personal salvation through works in this world (haolam hazeh) and in salvation for mankind through perfecting the world (Tikkun Olam).

The obvious conclusion is that they are Judeo-Christian.

Anonymous Gen. Kong August 29, 2016 11:21 AM  

Just an observation - but it strikes me that the form of Christianity which actually bears any resemblance to the kind which existed when Charles Martel defeated the advance of the invading Musloids at Tours so very long ago is largely purged from the west at this late date. There might be remnants scattered here and there I cannot point to a single organized body actually controlled by them.

Catholicism, whose infiltration began decades before the well was poisoned by the (((marranos))) and their useful idiots who authored Vatican II (kudos to Praetorian who also knows about Nostra Aetate and its ultimate implications and fulfillment) is owned by Soros. Those remnants within who are pursuing liturgical restoration are already being purged - and will ultimately be purged completely absent a divine intervention on the order of the Angel of death being sent to directly remove the present abomination sitting on Peter's throne and all his supporters.

As for Protestantism, it's many divisions have served to preserve some tiny remnants but again even the "conservative" denominations like the Southern Baptists are mostly converged. The apology for slavery, the participation in the resettlement of rapefugees, antiracism plus other pet SJW programs all point to a trend - to which there is no organized resistance. So-called "Mainline" Prots have been fully converged for decades now. They are completely lost and may as well be converted to mosques or temples to Isis. Pentecostals? They were believers in the gospel of equality and women in the pulpit before it even became a cause celebrate of the Rockefeller Baptists and the Episcopalians. That's the roiling cesspool from which emerge mountebanks like "Apostle Copeland" who annointed Ted Cruzman-Sachs as presidente. Carnival-barker con-men with harems of women - kind of like the negro "church" and similar side-shows found in Latin America.

Orthodoxy? In Greece it seems to have be owned by the owners of the EUSSR. Because of it's autocephalous structure, other branches seem less poisoned - but those are largely elsewhere and often actively targeted for extermination by Musloids with the assistance and support of useful-idiot Churchians serving in the Banana Empire's legions. I would think that the top priority of Christians - some of whose best defenders can be seen right here - would be a crusade to take back the church, now largely in the hands of the enemy.

Blogger synp August 29, 2016 11:21 AM  

SteelPalm wrote:I'm secular, but based on my readings, it appears that the actual meaning of "tikkun olam" is very different than the way Social Justice Warriors have perverted it;

Ask an Orthodox Rabbi and he'll tell you that the way for Jews to perfect the world is by devoting as much of their time as they can afford to studying the Torah and the Talmud.

Other Jews have taken this imperative to other places, including social justice. Unfortunately also to other perfect-the-world movements such as International Communism.

Blogger bob k. mando August 29, 2016 11:23 AM  

106. CM August 29, 2016 11:14 AM
Such as in areas of divorce, wifely submission, female ordination, slavery, and globalism. It is not limited to these examples, but are issues that have come up in recent times with large and loud fervor.



yeah, the failure to hold people ( especially women ) to account for divorce and submission to their husband is a major tell.

Blogger jamsco August 29, 2016 11:23 AM  

From Screwtape:

"I have been writing hitherto on the assumption that the people in the next pew afford no rational ground for disappointment. Of course if they do—if the patient knows that the woman with the absurd hat is a fanatical bridge-player or the man with squeaky boots a miser and an extortioner—then your task is so much the easier. All you then have to do is to keep out of his mind the question "If I, being what I am, can consider that I am in some sense a Christian, why should the different vices of those people in the next pew prove that their religion is mere hypocrisy and convention?" You may ask whether it is possible to keep such an obvious thought from occurring even to a human mind. It is, Wormwood, it is!"

Blogger CM August 29, 2016 11:25 AM  

From which I propose the following definition: "Churchianity" is the state of mind in which love of God is treated as a means to the end of improving the world, rather than in which improving the world is treated as a means to the end of loving God.

I love this. It is perfect.

I am quite frequently regaled by pleas of"even so and so thinks this and you admire them" or "so and so will feel this way about that."

My response? When have I ever cared what others thought before stating a belief? If I cared, I would have changed as soon as I knew YOU didn't like it. I don't care what they think. I care if it is true. Is it true or not? *silence*

Blogger Sam Lively August 29, 2016 11:30 AM  

CM wrote: A churchian is one who insincerely claims the mantle of Christian while remaining mostly worldly.

I don't agree. Christian-in-name-only is very different from Churchians.

Nominal Christians call themselves that, may show up on sundays, but largely, their faith has no impact on their daily life.

Churchians DO allow their beliefs to impact their lives. They are active, fervent, and as long as you stay away from the major issues where problems pop up, come across as genuine Christians.



Yep. Basically Christians who've been raised to view explicit patriarchy as an evil.

It's why they are so vulnerable to leftist/SJW shaming tactics. And why they are instinctively repulsed by Trump.

Blogger Assyrian Nationalist August 29, 2016 11:32 AM  

Anyone here have a well sourced analysis on the meaning of turning the other cheek?

My gut feeling is that the idea that you are to expose your left cheek after a Mohammedan has driven a blade through your right cheek emerged from a fairly modern take on scripture.

Blogger Leo Littlebook in Shenzhen August 29, 2016 11:36 AM  

Christian-in-name-only is very different from Churchians.

That's an erudite answer, CM, but I don't agree.

You're describing churchian SJWs versus churchians.

Christian-in-name-only (Chino?) is poor rhetoric and thus an inadequate substitute for "mainstreamer posing as Christian".

Lesser churchians are cover for greater ones. The beliefs are the same; only the commitment differs. Drain the sea.

Re turn the other cheek.

Blogger bob k. mando August 29, 2016 11:37 AM  

116. Assyrian Nationalist August 29, 2016 11:32 AM
My gut feeling is that the idea that you are to expose your left cheek after a Mohammedan has driven a blade through your right cheek emerged from a fairly modern take on scripture.



you don't say?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Crusade

Anonymous Be Not Afraid August 29, 2016 11:40 AM  

Vox, I like your short definition at the end.

@68: >Church of Nice. "Do you recycle?" a more important issue in some churches than "Do you follow Christ?"; in the world, and of the world. Also a Gospel of Stuff, where giving Stuff to people is sure to bring them closer to God.

Two more examples from my former UMC congregation:
-The church had an annual neo-pagan Earth-worship celebration and enviro-stewardship platform
-One of the major "giving" days' proceeds was going to the local community center's rec hall. A sound system > food for the hungry.

Blogger James August 29, 2016 11:45 AM  

This issue is dear to my heart so I will toss in my 2 cents regarding the faith versus works question: My understanding is that unbelievers will appear before Jesus Christ on His Great White Throne where they will be judged by their works, and their works will only serve to condemn them; whereas alternatively the believer who trusts in Jesus Christ will appear before His Judgment Seat, where the works of the believer will be judged, and even though the worthless works of wood hay and stubble will be burned up, any good works will pass through the fire of judgment and the believer himself will also pass through unscathed even though all his wicked works will be burned up. This is the loss to be suffered by those who slack off and don't take their worldly Christian duties seriously but who do somehow have a saving faith in Christ and who have been born again and were foreknown of God to be predestinated to salvation and glory.

Anonymous farmer August 29, 2016 11:45 AM  

Part of the problem is the feminist portion of churchianity is baked into the cake of western Christianity. When the Greeks and Romans joined the church they brought with them messed up views on sex, women and marriage.

So you can save Western Civilization and all you've done is make the world safe for feminist Christendom.

You can't just turn the clock back to year x. You have to root out the weaknesses in the old order that led us here.

Blogger Assyrian Nationalist August 29, 2016 11:47 AM  

Leo Littlebook in Shenzhen wrote:Re turn the other cheek.

Thank you.

bob k. mando wrote:you don't say?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Crusade


Clever.

Anonymous DissidentRight August 29, 2016 11:51 AM  

Blog request, please: How to find an authentic church.

If you’re Lutheran or willing to experiment: http://lutheranliturgy.org/ gives a good proxy. While even confessional Lutherans are largely cucked for various reasons, they have resisted intrusions to the church.

Anonymous DissidentRight August 29, 2016 11:53 AM  

Churchianity is social justice-converged pseudo-Christianity that cloaks itself in Christian rhetoric and trappings, follows the world rather than Jesus Christ, and seeks salvation through works instead of faith.

This is a great definition because it includes feminism as well.

Anonymous Dean Haskins August 29, 2016 11:53 AM  

As christianity was invented and codified by Constantine and his Roman ilk, it is synonymous with churchianity. The entire belief system is built on a faulty foundation, devoid of the true traditions of the faith. Having been a formally educated churchian for five decades, until the Holy Spirit led me out of that man-made organization, I can personally attest to the many differences between being a christian and being a true believer.

Anonymous Julian August 29, 2016 12:03 PM  

I live in a small(ish) Bible belt town with a gazillion Christian churches. Even living in the historic part of town where you would expect a lot of old white people to live, I'm surrounded by Middle Easterners. They kept to themselves until recently, when a man came over and shouted at me and threatened to shoot my pets because he doesn't like cats. I can't figure out what economic opportunities immigrants are finding here. It all seems very unlikely.

Blogger Sean August 29, 2016 12:05 PM  

I got into it with a lib one time for suggesting that the Good Samaritan was an individual mandate not a societal.

Blogger Mr. Naron August 29, 2016 12:06 PM  

"What part of "follows the world" did you find hard to understand? The world has moved on from the Social Gospel, ergo Churchianity manifests itself in different ways today. But it is essentially the same impulse and the same spirit."

I suppose it's the part where using foul language and drinking COULD be construed as "follows the world". I know the Bible has no "Seven Dirty Words" like TV of old, nor does it forbid drinking. That's why I was under the impression that a Churchian was one who elevated such things to essential doctrine.

As for the Social Gospel of a century ago, they weren't exactly the same kind of globalists of today. They did have a missionary impulse, but they were as racist as the day is long and more often than not aggressive imperialists. Make no mistake, they DID believe in the superiority of Western Civilization.

Blogger Nate August 29, 2016 12:08 PM  

"Anyone here have a well sourced analysis on the meaning of turning the other cheek?"

It was an act of defiance.

it is a relatively long and complicated explanation... but it is all about hebrew and roman culture.

Anonymous J. J. August 29, 2016 12:20 PM  

Vox, as a long time reader and long time elder at an evangelical church, I am very appreciative of your fight against Churchianity (and that many in the Ilk have also had valuable input over the years). It's a constant battle. Only occasionally do I come across full-on unabashed cucks. The battle is most often in the hearts and minds of those who should know better... longtime believers with a love for Christ and for the Bible, but occasionally will throw me with something they say. I think there's a social pressure toward "niceness", both from secular society and a rising tide within American Evangelicalism. GRACE = NICE is a false equation. I might be fortunate in that ours is a small church full of more mature believers (on average)... I suspect mega-churches are often full of SJWs in sheep's clothing and I can't imagine the scope of the battle there. Still, I have to keep aware, and I suppose this is why the Bible prescribes shepherds (pastors and elders) for the sheep, because sheep sometimes wander. Lucky me... if you ever meet someone who wants to be an elder too badly, be skeptical, because they are unaware of the task ahead.

I do have a slight quibble with the term "Churchianity". The Church is the Bride of Christ, the ones he loves and laid down his life for, the ones He will gather in the end. So, using the word "Church" in a negative light sounds backwards. I get it, though... the "Christ" in "Christianity" is replaced by . And that's the Church's biggest issue today, replacing Christ with something/anything, especially what is palatable to the culture (someone mentioned Michael Horton's "Christless Christianity" - the best book I've ever read describing the state of the modern Church).

Blogger Assyrian Nationalist August 29, 2016 12:23 PM  

Leo Littlebook in Shenzhen wrote:Re turn the other cheek.

Thank you.

bob k. mando wrote:you don't say?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Crusade


Clever.

Anonymous #8601 August 29, 2016 12:34 PM  

Last time I visited my Mom, we went to her church, which I had not attended for a while. One of the elders stood up to announce proudly that the "syrian" refugees the church had sponsored arrived in town last week, and had settled into their new house. This announcement was greeted with a loud applause by the congregation.

If not for my Mom, I would have walked out.

Blogger Old Ez August 29, 2016 12:36 PM  

"and seeks salvation through works instead of faith." Exactly like all Christians did for the first 1,500 years of Christendom? I could never swallow the idea that someone can get to Christ/God by thinking happy thoughts. They *must* do good deeds. Sorry if anyone disagrees, but I think 1,500 years of traditional Christianity has to trump a theological ideology that was elaborated principally to justify a massive looting operation in the Sixteenth Century.

Blogger Old Ez August 29, 2016 12:42 PM  

"First known full Mishnah printed in Naples Italy, 1492" - What does that have to do with when the Mishnah (and its predecessor, the Tosefta) was actually composed? The oldest extant copies of Aristotle's biological works dates from around 800AD, should we then infer that Aristotle wrote in 800AD? The Mishnah dates from 2nd Century AD, there may be no surviving manuscripts that old, but it doesn't mean Mishnah hasn't been around that long. It was an oral tradition long before it was committed writing anyway.

Blogger VD August 29, 2016 12:45 PM  

If not for my Mom, I would have walked out.

Next time, walk out.

Blogger VFM #7634 August 29, 2016 12:47 PM  

Churchianity is social justice-converged pseudo-Christianity that cloaks itself in Christian rhetoric and trappings, follows the world rather than Jesus Christ, and seeks salvation through works instead of faith.

And furthermore, it comes in leftist/SJW and cuckservative varieties, which is why some people are confused about the existence of right-wing Churchians. Those aren't "right-wing", they're cucks.

And if I can say this without sounding too eschatological, I expect it, or something very like it, will be the seed of the religion that worships Antichrist in the place of Jesus Christ.

Agreed, it'll be the "Christian" wing of the One World Religion.

Blogger VD August 29, 2016 12:48 PM  

The Mishnah dates from 2nd Century AD, there may be no surviving manuscripts that old, but it doesn't mean Mishnah hasn't been around that long.

It's irrelevant. The point is that it post-dates Christianity. What part of "first known FULL Mishnah" escaped your attention? Given that Maimonides was born in 1135, it should be obvious that his commentaries don't date back to the 2nd century AD.

Or do you wish to claim they are irrelevant to Judaism?

Blogger Herb Nowell August 29, 2016 12:53 PM  

@4: Very interesting analogy. In seeking something missing from church (I didn't have a name for the Churchianity and "single sinism" I was trying to escape at the time) I wound up in an Antiochian Orthodox parish. As such I routinely hear about the conditions Christians in the Middle East, especially Syria, face as a considerable fraction of them are in the same church. A handful are family members of parish members.

I doubt anyone is surprised we've had several collections specifically to aid Syrian Christians and fund raisers coordinated with the local Maronite Catholic Church (roughly the Catholic counterparts of our Orthodox communion).

You know what we have not done? We have not brought a single person, not even family of parish members, to this country through the church (I can't speak about families doing it for their own relatives but I know of none). We do, as we are called to do, give aid to our brothers but we give them aid to help them not infantilize them. We also give aid to them and not their persecutors (although we still implore God to remember those who hate us as well as those who love us before the Great Entrance).

Then again, the Orthodox take on the parable of the Good Samaritan is much broader than merely a "be nice to people tale" and on at least one level casts us not as the Samaritan but the man who rejected him and yet was given succor by him after the beating by the thieves. In that interpretation the Samaritan is, of course Christ, and the men before him are Adam then Moses (and the other prophets).

Blogger bob k. mando August 29, 2016 12:57 PM  

135. Assyrian Nationalist August 29, 2016 12:23 PM
Clever.




it's not clever, it's history. what the Humanists and Atheists hate for people to find out is that the 1st Crusade was called, not to 'conquer' the Holy Land, but to free it from the recently successful Turkish Muslim Jihad to which it had fallen.

it was a request for help from the Byzantine Empire / Orthodox Church which had, until the Turks, administered the Palestine, to which the Roman Empire / Catholic Church sent aid.


this is another metric by which one can see that the current Roman Catholic church no longer is. because, in the face of overt and declared Jihad ( see videos of Imams proclaiming in clear English that they will take our women and breed us out of existence and that this is the will of Allah ), the Roman Church is demanding that the West take in EVEN MORE Muslim hordes.

this is in NO WAY a Christian act.

Anonymous Mark Call August 29, 2016 1:01 PM  

Blog request, please: How to find an authentic church.

Any number of litmus tests exist. I suggest (as does Scripture, see Deuteronomy 13 for example) that preaching "another jesus, whom we have not preached" is pretty definitive.

Check out Malachi 3, and Hebrews 13:8. If He is in fact the same, "yesterday, today, and forever" and churchianity says otherwise - then just who is the liar?

Ask about Romans 13, and compare the Clergy Response Team Authorized Version with stories about the midwives from Exodus, the life of King David, and of course the Acts of those who went to jail for 'civil disobendence'.

Ask to see their incorporation documents, and then which of the two masters that they thus serve will prevail when Push – inevitably – Comes to Shove.

Finally, Matthew 5:17-19 and consider whether or not “heaven and earth” still exist, and what that might mean. If they try to “twist Paul” (II Peter 3:15-16) and claim that something in his letters, taken out of context, means he was contradicting the One he claimed to be a bondservant of – then run, don't walk, to a place where ALL of His Word, as Written, is the final arbiter of Truth.

(re: the 501c(3), et al – check out www.markniwot.com)

Blogger Arthur Isaac August 29, 2016 1:01 PM  

@Gen Kong. Marrano Jesuits (((Lacunza))) and (((Ribera))) also gave us the doctrine of the Rapture motivated by the Counter-Reformation. They needed a futurist eschatology so people would stop pointing at the Pope as the anti-Christ incarnate. Rapture = go to sleep Christian leave it to God's (((true heirs))). Later, the (((Lotus Club))) funded Scofield who picked up where Darby left off and had themselves a Dallas Theological Seminary to spread their Churchian lullaby far and wide.

Anonymous GreyS August 29, 2016 1:05 PM  

"Churchianity" is creeping secularism which is a direct result of Protestantism. `The term serves chiefly as a palliative for making "Bible-based Christians" feel better about not being involved with other Christians and a church. As they take their faith and retreat into their bedrooms, they don't realize they are merely another branch of the same tree as the SJWs.

Blogger Arthur Isaac August 29, 2016 1:07 PM  

Charles Martel didn't believe that a "Rapture" was going to save him from the Great Tribulation, else he might have just as easily sat on his hands waiting for God to deliver him....

Blogger Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus August 29, 2016 1:10 PM  

"and seeks salvation through works instead of faith." Exactly like all Christians did for the first 1,500 years of Christendom? I could never swallow the idea that someone can get to Christ/God by thinking happy thoughts. They *must* do good deeds. Sorry if anyone disagrees, but I think 1,500 years of traditional Christianity has to trump a theological ideology that was elaborated principally to justify a massive looting operation in the Sixteenth Century.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)

Shoot, what did Paul know about it anywise?

Blogger EscapeVelocity August 29, 2016 1:10 PM  

Marxism has been called a Christan heresy by GK Chesterson.

Perhaps why it's been so incessant in Euorpean Christendom.

Blogger Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus August 29, 2016 1:10 PM  

Charles Martel didn't believe that a "Rapture" was going to save him from the Great Tribulation, else he might have just as easily sat on his hands waiting for God to deliver him....

Charles Martel was also a Catholic heretic and a lost man.

Blogger frigger611 August 29, 2016 1:13 PM  

Thank you for the explanation.

In my own little mind, I thought the term was brilliant, because it shines light on the idea that the simple act of just GOING TO CHURCH is what makes one a good Christian.

Sort of just joining the "good" team, you know....

without all that faith and and doctrine and overly judgmental stuff that might be too burdensome while striking out on your road to becoming the totally awesome person you're meant to be.

Anonymous #8601 August 29, 2016 1:18 PM  

@VD Next time walk out

Will do! It was also Boy Scouts day at the Church, except half of them were girls, as was the Scout Leader. When the F did Boy Scouts go co-ed??

Blogger Arthur Isaac August 29, 2016 1:18 PM  

Charles Martel was also a Catholic heretic and a lost man.

But it's amazing how many Liberation Theologians are not counted as the same....

Blogger JDC August 29, 2016 1:19 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger JDC August 29, 2016 1:21 PM  

OSAS (Once saved always saved)

I am reminded of Jesus' temptation in the desert.

Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written: “‘He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'” Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’” (Mat. 4)

Jesus came to the world, died for all and promises eternal life in his name, saved by grace through faith. We receive this promise, this free unmerited gift and then begin to contemplate what we may or may not do to lose it, instead of just accepting it and growing in our discipleship.

I imagine the devil quietly whispering in our ear, “Did he really say you’d be saved by faith alone? Go ahead, test it and earn it, after all, God promised.”

Anonymous S E Delenda August 29, 2016 1:21 PM  

"Churchianity is social justice-converged pseudo-Christianity that cloaks itself in Christian rhetoric and trappings, follows the world rather than Jesus Christ, and seeks salvation through works instead of faith."

On the contrary, it is salvation through assent (faith)to popular ideas, one of which is faith in gvernment. You can do anything you want as long as you vote Hillary and wear a breast cancer awareness ribbon.

Blogger Orville August 29, 2016 1:22 PM  

I prefer the "man, movement, monument" assessment, where it starts with God working through one man, moves to movement that becomes bureaucratic over time, and finally a dead monument devoid of any trace of God within it's walls.

That said, I'll wave a hanky for most of what brother Nate said.

Blogger clk August 29, 2016 1:23 PM  

@147

By their fruit you will recognize them. Are grapes gathered from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles?...

Even so faith, if it has not works, is dead ...

Blogger clk August 29, 2016 1:24 PM  

The fruit of a man is his work...

Anonymous A Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents August 29, 2016 1:28 PM  

The word "churchianity" is very apt for the times, and that is why it is spreading along with "cuckservative" in all sorts of interesting places.

The reaction that both words inspire from the cucks and churchians is absolutely entertaining. That wide-eyed, disbelieving, "how dare you!" spluttering incoherence is YUGE.

Blogger synp August 29, 2016 1:32 PM  

VD wrote:
It's irrelevant. The point is that it post-dates Christianity. What part of "first known FULL Mishnah" escaped your attention? Given that Maimonides was born in 1135, it should be obvious that his commentaries don't date back to the 2nd century AD.

I think you are confusing The Mishnah, a compilation of oral tradition written down in the first, second and third centuries, with the Mishneh Torah, a book by Maimonides. They are not related.

The Toseftah is similar to the Mishnah and from the same timeframe, but it includes content that the people who compiled the Mishnah did not see fit to include in the Mishnah. The word Toseftah translates as addendum. The Gemarah is later commentary of the Mishnah written mostly in Aramaic as opposed to the Mishnah's Hebrew. The Mishanah and Gemarah together (plus commentary) are bound together to form the Talmud.

Maimonides' Mishneh Torah is a summary of practical parts of the Talmud. It was written so that the answers to the question of what Judaism demands of its adherents would be available easily without searching the massive Talmud.

In this role of practical guide it has since been replace by the Shulhan Aruch, a book from the 16th century more heavily influenced by Jewish mysticism (Kabbalah) that flourished at about that time.

Anonymous S E Delenda August 29, 2016 1:32 PM  

And here we have the exigesis of the singular verse.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)


James 2:14-26New King James Version (NKJV)

Faith Without Works Is Dead


14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my[b] works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[c] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[d] And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

These verses are supplemented by a myriad of others that indicate what you do matters. Luther shows every indication of being what was used to be called a "scrupulant", who could not subsist on hope but wanted a guarantee, so he invented a recipe. It's no accident he called James an "epistle of straw" and said he would burn the book of James, if he could.





Blogger Old Ez August 29, 2016 1:55 PM  

@VoxDay "Maimonides was born in 1135, it should be obvious that his commentaries don't date back to the 2nd century AD."

Ok, I see where the confusion is now. You're referring to something called "Mishneh Torah", written by Maimonides. Mishneh Torah and Mishnah are *not* the same thing. I don't usually "pull rank" like this, but several years ago I spent several thousands of dollars and many hundreds of hours acquiring and studying rabbinic literature in translation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mishneh_Torah

See disambiguation clause at top of page. Mishnah =/= Mishneh Torah.

Blogger Nate August 29, 2016 1:59 PM  

People keep asking about Churchianity

Look up Joel Olsteen.

http://babylonbee.com/news/joel-osteen-apologizes-using-lords-name-sermon/

Blogger Old Ez August 29, 2016 2:00 PM  

@160 knows his stuff.

Anonymous andon August 29, 2016 2:00 PM  

143. Blogger bob k. mando August 29, 2016 12:57 PM

what the Humanists and Atheists hate for people to find out is that the 1st Crusade was called, not to 'conquer' the Holy Land, but to free it from the recently successful Turkish Muslim Jihad to which it had fallen.


I get the feeling most folks under 30 don't know this. they think the Christians were the invaders

Blogger Arthur Isaac August 29, 2016 2:04 PM  

Charles Martel was a "heretic"? He was never excommunicated and is buried in the Basilica of St. Denis. Where and by whom was he ruled a "heretic"?

Blogger Leo Littlebook in Shenzhen August 29, 2016 2:08 PM  

It is not necessary to debate works salvation to understand the OP. The key phrase is, "works instead of faith."

It is not a question of relative emphasis, of whether Thomas was more saved than the thief on the cross, but rather of wholesale replacement.

If they really believed, they would fear to alter His Word. They don't.

Therefore they worship the image of god within themselves, the biocultural god-ego, rather than Jehovah, who stands outside the phantoms of monkey minds.

Their invasion of and superficial resemblance to Christian subculture is as either mops or sociopaths.

Blogger Student in Blue August 29, 2016 2:20 PM  

@134. J. J.
I do have a slight quibble with the term "Churchianity". The Church is the Bride of Christ, the ones he loves and laid down his life for, the ones He will gather in the end. So, using the word "Church" in a negative light sounds backwards. I get it, though... the "Christ" in "Christianity" is replaced by .

Even more than that, it's worshipping the bride above the groom - again another instance of rejecting patriarchy as some sort of inherently "evil" thing.

The church is the bride, yet what happens when the bride, completely unchecked, gets her way with everything? She becomes a bridezilla. And she also, more likely than not, becomes unfaithful.

Blogger VD August 29, 2016 2:28 PM  

Mishnah =/= Mishneh Torah

All right, so what is the best way to rewrite that sentence? It doesn't actually matter when the source of tikkun olam was first written down, so long as it was after 33 AD.

Blogger Banshee August 29, 2016 2:44 PM  

This is a bit late in the thread to bring it up, but the idea of perfecting human society on earth through the efforts of individual Christians, as opposed to things only getting perfect after the Second Coming, is an old dream. There are a lot of Jews who hoped that Israel would be able to be the big brother to the world and a good example, and that the Gentile little brothers would just fall into line someday -- and then the Messiah would come, not the Messiah would make that happen. There were a lot of Christians who took "Be perfect as My Father is perfect" as something that everybody could readily do themselves before Jesus came back; and that's where Pelagius, the Montanists, and many other heretical groups turned into heresies. So we're talking early Christianity there.

Most of today's social justice nonsense has its roots in Joachim of Fiore's silliness about the Age of the Holy Spirit (which is where all that Age of Aquarius crap came from).

The other thing to note is that most social justice nonsense isn't at all interested in good works being done by individual Christians or individual church groups. Somebody else can do the soup kitchen, because the allegedly Christian SJW is much more interested in lobbying the government or putting out pamphlets and virtue signals. Many of them feel that good works are a bad thing, because taking care of your neighbor yourself gets in the way of government taking care of all the neighbors forever. The same thing is true for those progressive Jewish groups that have largely abandoned traditional charitable giving and charitable acts, in favor of giving money to dubious causes and going to demonstrations.

Good works are not the focus at all. They are the easily abandoned excuse.

Blogger The Kurgan August 29, 2016 2:54 PM  

JA Baker,
Your opinions are not based on Catholic views but rather the misrepresentation by Churchianity of those views.
Francis is a heretic and so are all the popes since 1958. As any actual Catholic knows.

Blogger Factory August 29, 2016 2:59 PM  

For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,


Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;


Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.


2 Timothy 3

Anonymous CitizenOutkast August 29, 2016 3:07 PM  

It does not fall to me to even be the judge of my own Christianity...none of us know whether we will be saved or we will be one of those from whom Jesus will turn and say "I never knew you."

Have to disagree with that point. I think God wants us to know, and would rather we knew for sure and could speak from a position of certainly and strength rather than "well, I hope I'm saved, and here's the good news that you, too, could possibly be saved maybe." The NT has a bunch of verses that state this or at the very least allude to it.

We're told "work out your salvation with fear and trembling." Not "work out your potential salvation."

Quotes from 1 John:

1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (not "maybe")

1Jo 2:3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. (Now, you could say "yeah, we know Him, but that doesn't mean He knows us." Except, what would be the point of that? John is also writing to teach these new Christians what they need to know, and wants them to be sure of what he has taught them before.)

1Jo 2:13 I am writing to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I have written to you, children, because you know the Father.

3:23 This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
24 The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
4:15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Character limit?

Blogger Mountain Man August 29, 2016 3:07 PM  

@165
Thats pretty funny. It reads like a a christianized Onion article.

Anonymous CitizenOutkast August 29, 2016 3:07 PM  

Apparently, at least according to John, we should know we have eternal life. No one should feel worthy of it. No one should use it to feel superior to another person, but it sounds to me like we should at least be sure. With an attitude of "thank God, because I couldn't do it on my own."

In the book of Galatians, Paul sounds pretty sure about those he's writing to:
3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Mark:
16:16 "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. (Again, not "maybe, you'll never know.")

Romans:
Ro 10:8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" --that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

I would never judge someone else's salvation. As you say, it's definitely not our place to do so, no matter what. But I've wrestled with the whole "may or may not be saved" thing, and from personal experience I know you can be almost useless constantly wondering if you're just lying to yourself, and the devil likes to stick in your ear "why do anything just to get tossed into hell anyway? You could be a perfect saint and still burn forever? Why bother?" I still struggle with this every once and awhile, because I know I'm definitely not good enough for anything, let alone salvation. I wonder if I'm doing enough, if I'm still motivated out of selfish desires, if anything I do will even be considered "done for Jesus." It's a very insecure state of being when it's like that.

This really isn't even getting into works, because even if you're doing good works, a person could still jab you with "yeah, but are you really doing them for Jesus, or are you doing them to earn your place in heaven?"

Now, since I'm the peon in this realm of intellectual superiors, feel free to rip my post to shreds. I'm not being sarcastic with that first segment.

Blogger CM August 29, 2016 3:13 PM  

If Grace -> Works

Not If Works -> Grace

You can have works without grace, in which you are trying to raise yourself up.

But with Grace, we are his workmanship, called to do His good works (Ephesians 4:10). So grace must have works, but works do not need grace.

Anonymous Gen. Kong August 29, 2016 3:21 PM  

andon wrote:143. Blogger bob k. mando August 29, 2016 12:57 PM

what the Humanists and Atheists hate for people to find out is that the 1st Crusade was called, not to 'conquer' the Holy Land, but to free it from the recently successful Turkish Muslim Jihad to which it had fallen.


I get the feeling most folks under 30 don't know this. they think the Christians were the invaders


… as they've been taught in public schools in books written by communists like (((Howard Zinn))) and others too numerous to count. 25 years ago James Dobson - who might well be a Darbyite-Scofield heretic himself for all I know - stated that Christians needed to remove their children from the maw of public edumacayshun (this warning itself was at least a quarter century late). How many did so? Some, but not many. So here we are…..

Blogger The Rev August 29, 2016 3:40 PM  

I'm late to the party, but Jim Jones (of poisoned Kool-Aid fame), was literally a Communist infiltrator to the Church. When he went to infiltrate the Methodists, he was surprised to find a Methodist minister who willingly helped him get a start as a pastor, despite knowing he was an atheist Communist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones#Indiana_beginnings

The Eschaton will not be Immanentized. The Eschaton immanetizes you.

Blogger CM August 29, 2016 3:40 PM  

25 years ago James Dobson - who might well be a Darbyite-Scofield heretic himself for all I know - stated that Christians needed to remove their children from the maw of public edumacayshun (this warning itself was at least a quarter century late). How many did so? Some, but not many. So here we are…..

My mother did. Because of him. Many baptists did and still do... because of him. That christian curricula exist for homeschoolers says something about the not insignificant rise of homeschoolers among "weird" christians.

Its only trendy now because non-christians joined in the fun.

Now to the heretic thing, I don't know. He's not as outspoken as some of his FotF paeons are these days and they have adopted some churchianity stuff.

But Dobson himself? Its hard to say. He and Elisabeth Elliot were the big Christian family formation experts of the day and they were pretty hardnosed on authority and heirarchy.

Blogger The Hammer August 29, 2016 3:41 PM  

@121, http://www.tektonics.org/lp/madmad.php

@171, while I thought your chapter was strong overall against the churchian ideology, I thought this was a weak point. If one isn't pre-millennial, many of other eschatologies think the spread of the gospel (real one, not the social one) will make the world better and it will be mostly Christian before Jesus returns.

One big piece of historical evidence those of us of this positive amillennial or post-millennial view appeal to is that the Gospel created Western civilization. Which we agree has been a great thing for the world in general.

Blogger Desiderius August 29, 2016 3:46 PM  

"It was an act of defiance."

If you think of it as akin to mooning someone, you'll not be far off the mark.

Blogger Desiderius August 29, 2016 3:49 PM  

"The primary goal of the Churchian is to be perceived as a Good Person."

The is the crux of the entire matter. It is prior to considerations of left/right/SJW or any of that mess.

The church of Jesus Christ crucified, resurrected, and ascended is to be a hospital for sinners, not a hotel for saints. Churchianity is in the hotel business.

Blogger Austin Ballast August 29, 2016 3:58 PM  

Nate wrote:People keep asking about Churchianity

Look up Joel Olsteen.

http://babylonbee.com/news/joel-osteen-apologizes-using-lords-name-sermon/



That would be like citing The Onion for facts.

Joel Osteen has many problems, but that article is a spoof.

====

who might well be a Darbyite-Scofield heretic

I am not sure all what you dump in that bucket, but many of us hold to truths that you likely put there because they make you uncomfortable.

Believing in a pre-trib rapture is Biblical, as an example. I won't argue the point, but wanted to note that many of us are quite disgusted with Churchianity but still hold Biblical beliefs.

I grew up in the RCC and was even confirmed there, so I suppose I will remain a heretic to many for leaving the fold myself.

It does sound like the RCC is almost in the Pope / Anti-Pope stage once again.

Anonymous GreyS August 29, 2016 4:00 PM  

Francis is a heretic and so are all the popes since 1958.

What is the process you used to decide on the year 1958?

Blogger Were-Puppy August 29, 2016 4:00 PM  

A lot of posts here are trying to equate Churchians with leftists. The part you are missing is, they are a type of Cuckservative, not a true lefty.

It's a rehash of the old question "is a Cuckservative an SJW?". Nope, two different things.

Blogger The Rev August 29, 2016 4:02 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Old Ez August 29, 2016 4:13 PM  

"It doesn't actually matter when the source of tikkun olam was first written down, so long as it was after 33 AD."

100% true statement.

But I would also caution against lumping the idea of "salvation by works", which is an integral doctrine of both Orthodoxy and Catholicism, in with "Tikkun Olam". I understand fully what you mean by "works" and tikkun in the sense of "immanentizing the eschaton", but that's not all what "salvation through works" means in the traditionalist faiths. There's plenty of Scriptural evidence for *both* salvation through faith (Gal 2:16-17) and through works (Mat 19:16-19). I think in cases like that, where Scripture seems to point in two directions, Tradition is indispensable.

Blogger Nate August 29, 2016 4:13 PM  

"Joel Osteen has many problems, but that article is a spoof."

Yes. The Babylon Bee is a parody site.

But its a parody site known for skewering its targets with the truth.

And that article is a great example of it.

You will be hard pressed to ever hear the word "Jesus" come out of Olsteen's mouth.

Blogger tz August 29, 2016 4:14 PM  

@149 - It is all grace, through the trusting, active faith that leads to works, not the abstract belief faith that says do what you please.

Plastic or Wax fruit looks good but isn't edible.

@145 Chuck Baldwin has a list of churches similar to Liberty Fellowship Montana - he doesn't have a 501c3, and many of those don't either.

Beyond that you might need to look to rural areas, or just walk in and see if the women are dressed modestly and/or heads are covered or something simple like that. But it has to go deeper.

@General

Jesus contended with everyone, the Pharisees, Saducees, and you don't see anyone he encountered trying to make the world better in the way mentioned. You can find nothing about making the world better in the New Testament.

(H/T Baldwin) That for a few centuries there was this America where because everyone was Christian that God's blessings flowed and we had peace and prosperity, and the occasional judgment (Lincoln) doesn't mean the the cause was Christians acting. No, Christians did the right thing, and the Lord blessed their nation. Now they are lukewarm and apostate and we are suffering judgement.

God does see hearts. He blesses true and wise charity. He curses virtue signalling.

Blogger Nate August 29, 2016 4:19 PM  

"Thats pretty funny. It reads like a a christianized Onion article."

dude the Bee is amazing. its a whole site of christian satire. In one article they have Joel Olsteen bitching at poor people and orphans because they don't just get with the program and declare a faith victory over all their problems.

Blogger Nate August 29, 2016 4:25 PM  

" You can find nothing about making the world better in the New Testament."

love your neighbor as yourself.

Jesus advocated acute intervention into individual lives where you are in your day to day life.

Blogger synp August 29, 2016 4:32 PM  

VD wrote:Mishnah =/= Mishneh Torah

All right, so what is the best way to rewrite that sentence? It doesn't actually matter when the source of tikkun olam was first written down, so long as it was after 33 AD.


The phrase mipnei tikkun olam was probably used decades or more before that, but only in the narrow sense.

"Mipnei tikkun olam" meant a regulation ("takana") was put in place by the assembly of rabbis (Sanhedrin) or by a lower court that was not based on scriptures, and that regulation was needed for harmonious living.

I think seeing Tikkun Olam as some great mission to be undertaken by all Jews is far later than that and probably stems from Kabbala many centuries later.

Blogger tz August 29, 2016 4:35 PM  

@56 - But what have they done about abortion? 55 million dead? What is so more important than this holocaust that they've been busy for 4 decades and have not had the time to create a real opposition and escalate until it has ended?

That they can tolerate a holocaust for a Generation, they can tolerate far worse than Gay Marriage.

Churchianity is worldly, not heavenly. Jesus asked "What profiteth a man to gain the world but lose his soul?". He also said (in the sermon on the mount) not to do good deeds for or before men since there will be no reward in heaven.

Churchians are for worldly status. Instead of finding a child to adopt that God may want, they will find the one that shows they are tolerant.

If every churchian was willing to go to jail to stop Abortion, except for a few converged states, it would end. Oh, but going to jail for praying in front of an Abortion clinic loses SJW points!

The real spiritual work is hard. It isn't going into ghettos or the 3rd world, it is going into Hell itself. It isn't fighting poverty, it is fighting demons. It isn't getting "community service" awards, it is hearing your heavenly Father say "Well Done".

Churchianity is spiritually minimal, worldly maximal.

Blogger tz August 29, 2016 4:37 PM  

@193 - loving your neighbor means saving his soul first.
All too many want to make the "world" better yet not want to lift a finger to help any particular person including many who are close, socially or physically.

Anonymous Gen. Kong August 29, 2016 4:40 PM  

@Austin Ballast
It seems Cyrus Scofield (whose study-bible dates from 1909) is one of the important figures whose work enabled the erection of serious heresy discussed here the other day: Judeo-Christianity. It is a very widespread heresy and an important component of the 'one-world religion'. Since 1958 (Vatican II), it's been embraced by the Catholic Church as well as most Protestants. The majority of churchians in the Banana Empire's homeland are Judeo-Christians of one type or another.

There is a 'conservative' branch of Judeo-Chistians who are prone to do things like sign up for the Banana Empire's Zionist legion in order aid Musloids in their extermination of local Christians, because Israel. (This is the Goldman-Sachs/Israel worshipping branch of Judeo-Christianity, as opposed to the more openly-SJW Golden Dindu worshippers, many of whom endorse other facets of the globalist agenda like abortion, the whole sodomite culture, etc.). It does not necessarily follow that anyone who believes in a pre-tribulation rapture is a full-blown heretic, but this particular doctrine, and its popularization by Darby, Moody and Scofield, does appear to be a central plank of the Goldman-Sachs/Israel worshipping sector of the Judeo-Christian heresy so prevalent in what was once referred to the 'bible belt' of the USA.

Blogger Were-Puppy August 29, 2016 4:44 PM  

@197 Gen. Kong
@Austin Ballast
It seems Cyrus Scofield (whose study-bible dates from 1909) is one of the important figures whose work enabled the erection of serious heresy discussed here the other day: Judeo-Christianity.
---

I've got one of those Schofield bibles somewhere, now I'm interested in digging the notes of it. I don't recall seeing that stuff in there, but maybe my eyes weren't opened at the time.

Blogger Orville August 29, 2016 4:50 PM  

You will be hard pressed to ever hear the word "Jesus" come out of Olsteen's mouth.

Not even when he stubs his toe?

Blogger Sam Lively August 29, 2016 4:51 PM  

@181

I think FOTF is likely in the early to mid stages of convergence. I heard Dobson got the soft boot awhile back.

Not necessarily on the fast-track to SJWism - more like a bunch of apathetic hacks milking the brand name for sinecures as they apologize and qualify their way into irrelevance.

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