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Saturday, September 10, 2016

Alt-White and Alt-West

One of the chief pieces of evidence concerning the fact that #GamerGate was a primarily left-wing group is the way in which many of the supporters of the #AltRight are observably ignorant of the basic tenets of the most successful anti-SJW, anti-media action since the cultural war began. Every group and every movement has its tone and purity police, and usually, their activities are totally counterproductive. Consider this observation from the central rallying point of the GamerGate left, KotakuInAction:
I'm finding it hard to believe this needs to be said, but since it appears that Mark Kern (AKA Grummz) got mobbed, from within GG, by tone-policing PC assholes who took umbrage with him referring to Nyberg as "he" instead of "she", to the point that he decided to quit GG, losing us a valuable ally and supporter, it would seem that this indeed needs to be said: Political correctness and tone-policing have no place in GamerGate.
Now, this doesn't mean that entryism is not a serious potential problem or that there are those individuals who are best kept at arms-length, or further, for one reason or another. But in general, the tone and purity police are a much bigger problem in the early stages.

Therefore, in the interest of educating those interested in learning the tactics of those who have successfully used them in the past, it may be useful to read this document, which was widely accepted throughout GamerGate and helps explain how we successfully addressed the problem.
All of the following are counterproductive and damage ourselves ONLY:
No objectives, no goals, no demands, no philosophies, no lists.
  • It screws up the framing of the issue by forcing us to focus on specific issues.
  • The corrupt journos will adhere to the letter of the list and not the spirit. They will find a way to weasel around them.
  • The second nobody is looking, they'll go back to being dishonest.
  • This idea was put forth by a well-meaning PR person, not someone experienced in consumer activity. PR is the journo's game. Not ours.
  • It divides us into the goals we each specifically want and we don't all want the same things. What appeases you will not appease another etc.
  • Demands are things that terrorists make. We are a consumer revolt. We are not violent. We are not underhanded. We are not a political movement.
  • Philosophies are for philosophers, not consumer revolts. We don't need philosophy to obtain the moral high ground, the opposition has already given it to us. We have no benefit in philosophies.
  • Goals are for games, not a consumer revolt.
  • Objectives are for military operations, not a consumer revolt.
  • Lists are for nerds.
  • It is true that it may increase our numbers (in an absolute sense, but we're still divided over the goals) because people have specific things to champion. However, this will bring us fence-sitters and those of weak will and not people that will do the work of writing emails and investigation of corruption. If they aren't invested on the merits, they aren't invested and thus are not helpful.
  • We do not need clear end points. If people are discouraged by a perceived lack of progress, take a break. This is an extended and long-term approach and you must take breaks. If you need specific goals for yourself, participate 2 or 3 days a week. Phrase it in those terms. Creating goals is not necessary.
  • It does not help people get into this. What does help people get into this is a more coherent and concise set of facts that they can evaluate and come to their own conclusions.
  • Numbers are not an argument. Facts create numbers. Numbers don't necessarily create facts.
  • Phrasing these goals incorrectly will put them as lines in the sand. We cannot change them once they're satisfied. We cannot move goalposts like they do.
No narrative changing.
  • As we are a consumer revolt and not a political movement, we do not need a narrative.
  • Narratives are for PR. PR is the journo's game. Not ours.
  • We let the opposition change the narrative for themselves as they've done time and again for the last month.
  • We will go as far politically as we must (as we've been forced to do so far), but have no inherent desire to do so.
  • If a person is energized by narrative, they are in the wrong place. Narratives change and we would lose them when it changes anyway. Additionally, it's unlikely that people that aren't participating on the merits will do the requisite work involved.
  • We are about facts, logic, and reason. A narrative is a way of spinning these. We have no spin. Only truth.
  • We are actually inclusive and this has been demonstrated already. There is no need to push this or any message.
No leaders.
  • This is a 100% shill idea put forward by the opposition to make it easy to play the identity game. This is their bread and butter and they will co-opt or ruin anything that they can get their hands on.
  • We've lasted for a month and counting with no real dictators. We should continue this trend.
  • There are currently no weak points to attack.
  • As attacks against individuals intensify (people have lost jobs, been sent mafia-esque messages in the mail, and have been severely harassed for being involved), it's clear that giving them heads that are more important than others is a bad idea.
  • Even discussing who you would pick implies some kind of extra importance. We do not want this. We're all in this together.

This is a section of a longer document, and was conceived as a comprehensive rebuttal to help GamerGaters address a specific type of shill known as The Changer. Other shills to watch out for included The Fear Monger, The Defeatist, The Dismissive, The False Flag, The Politico, The Discreditor, The Misdirector, The Uncertain, The Slider, and The Self-Shiller; the longer document recommended specific responses to deal with each of them. It may strike you as paranoid, but I personally witnessed multiple shills of each of these types, as SJWs repeatedly tried to infiltrate and redirect what, despite outsiders' best efforts to categorize it as a hate group, a terrorist group, and a Twitter-based charade, remained a consumer revolt focused tightly on the corrupt games media.
Now, obviously not all of these lessons are applicable to the #AltRight, because the #AltRight is a political movement, not a consumer revolt, it is positive and prescriptive in nature as opposed to being intrinsically defensive like #GamerGate, and it is addressing a very wide range of societal and historical issues instead of being obsessively focused on a single issue and industry at a specific point in time.

Nevertheless, it is clear that there is an intrinsic tension within the Alt-Right, which is not necessarily a bad thing. On the one side is the Alt-White, which is pure white nationalist and predominantly pagan or atheist. This could be thought of as the NPI or Spencerian Alt-Right. On the other is the Alt-West, which is omni-nationalist and pro-Christian. I suspect Jared Taylor and RamZPaul are more of this persuasion, but I could be wrong. Regardless, it is the branch in which I would place myself. All of the 16 Points of the Alt-Right with which even Richard Spencer himself only has a few quibbles, can reasonably be considered an Alt-West perspective.

But perhaps rather than thinking of them as branches, it is more helpful to think of them as roots, each being sustained by different pools, supporting the same glorious tree of Western Civilization. Because it is vital to understand that for the Alt-Right to be successful over time, Alt-White and Alt-West must continue to cooperate, refrain from internecine conflict, and continue to stand by each other in the face of the coming media assaults in the same way that GamerGate/KiA and GamerGate/chan did. (And believe me, the conceptual spectrum of the Alt-Right is CONSIDERABLY more narrow than that of GamerGate. Since they were able to coexist and cooperate, we definitely can.) Any claims to be the One True Strain of the Alt-Right are spurious and should be rejected by all sides, as anyone who subscribes to what Lawrence Murray has laid out as the Alt-Right's big tent is correctly characterized, at the very least, as an ally of the Alt-Right.

Besides, as we all know, the only true apotheosis of Pepe is Kek.

It is worse than a waste of time, it is totally counterproductive to shoot at allies. In GamerGate, we had a simple and straightforward response to the shills, tone police, and self-appointed purity police who repeatedly attempted to redirect our efforts away from the primary target of the game journos: SHUT UP AND EMAIL. I suggest that both branches of the Alt-Right, Alt-White and Alt-West, would do very well to adopt a similar policy, especially as various shills do their best to divide and conquer. We would be foolish to do as the Left does, and spend vast quantities of time and effort seeking out and denouncing splittists, reactionaries, and false consciousnesses.

SHUT UP AND SHOOT LEFT.

Remember, it's all very well to get excited about the fact that the media is paying attention to the Alt-Right, but never forget that the reason they are doing so is in order to discredit, disqualify, and destroy it and everyone who is associated with it. Don't help them do it. The media game is to anoint and behead leaders, and they will always attempt to redefine you in the process, as Betsy Woodruff demonstrates at the Daily Beast:
So the Alt-Right—helmed by the trio who gathered at The Willard on Friday—is the most extreme example of a shift on the American right: away from a nostalgic conservative focus on restoring the values of the Founders, and towards a forward-focused nationalism that prioritizes drastic limits on immigration and open hostility to globalism.
But if that forward-focused nationalism sounds good to you, then regardless of whether you are more Alt-White or Alt-West, you are at the very least sympathetic to the Alt-Right.

Labels: ,

208 Comments:

1 – 200 of 208 Newer› Newest»
Anonymous Takin' a Look September 10, 2016 6:34 AM  

Very good advice.

Anonymous GG-Anon September 10, 2016 6:34 AM  

away from the primary target of the game journos:
Not talking about lists and goals and stuff. And then in the same post selling the "it's about ethics" nonsense.

It was about video games. About saving video games. Up until it got co-opted and neutered and made to be about game journos. It's like rabid puppies focusing on scifi journalists instead of caring about the books. It should be apparent to anyone that it makes zero sense to pretend journos are the gate keepers and thus give them that power. Especially in gaming where no gamer ever cared about their nonsense. The goal should have been to make it clear to the producers that gamers do not care about journos instead of perpetuating the lie that journos hold that much power over games and thus signaling to the producers that their opinions actually do matter.

And that KiA worked together with Breitbart is absurd to the extreme. They absolutely hate Breitbart. They barely tolerate Breitbart Tech. Barely. Tried to get it banned numerous times. KiA had no connection to Breitbart. The anons on the chans had.

Blogger Sillon Bono September 10, 2016 6:34 AM  

Praise Kek! + (picture of the fist in the cover of ctrl+alt+revolt)

Blogger ZhukovG September 10, 2016 6:40 AM  

Agreed; it is pointless to argue about who should be Grand Marshal of the victory parade when our counter-offensive has barely begun.

Blogger VD September 10, 2016 6:42 AM  

Not talking about lists and goals and stuff. And then in the same post selling the "it's about ethics" nonsense.

It was about video games. About saving video games. Up until it got co-opted and neutered and made to be about game journos.


It wasn't coopted and neutered, and it remained about saving video games FROM THE GAME JOURNOS who were attacking them.

Yeah, I blanked on /chan. Will correct. Just threw that in there as shorthand for GG/Right.

Blogger Krul September 10, 2016 6:57 AM  

This is good. Changed my Twitter bio to "Type: ALT-RIGHT Subtype: ALT-WEST" with a link to this post.

Anonymous GG-Anon September 10, 2016 6:58 AM  

It wasn't coopted and neutered, and it remained about saving video games FROM THE GAME JOURNOS who were attacking them.
From the SJWs who were attacking gaming. Without the mass censorship on /r/games (or /r/gaming) on reddit no one would have cared about the slut. It would have been fun. It would have been one video. It would have been bantz. The digging into FEZ and the indi-Awards. The digging into Digra, the complaints about sins of the solar empire changing the art to appease SJWs. The SJW Dina in Mighty No. 9. Youtubers being payed off to shill for games. Common Core anti-gamer curriculum. None of it has to do with game journos.

Gamers always knew that games media isn't capable of even playing the games. They suck. They are really really bad at them. That isn't news to any gamer.

The focus was shifted away from what really matters. The issue is gaming companies changing their games to appease idiots. Not that those idiots exist. Defeat game journos and you win barely anything. The SJWs attack from multiple angles. Taking Kotaku down wasn't a primary target. It was just one attack vector to show the gaming publishers the power gamers have. The next thing would have been to boycott a gaming company. Make them feel the heat. Make them get rid of the SJW cancer in their companies. Attack attack attack. But by then, by Christmas, the infighting in GamerGate was already too strong to do anything but pretending to send emails. Have you send emails today? (actually I didn't, but virtue signaling that I do is more important. In addition as a tri-gender black male I'm notyourshield, my voice is thus tremendously important and I love diversity in games - the real diversity - the good diversity - only bigots have problems with a female black Link)

Blogger Phillip George September 10, 2016 6:59 AM  

When city hall started calling citizens consumers, customers, clients they declared every tier of government the franchise of the money changers. Indeed a "consumer revolt" fits perfectly.

We, the flesh and blood people, do not want their product. They stopped being us. Corporations were to be a tool not a master. Every individual is entitled to my opinion and I would defend to their death the inalienable right to agree with me.

Anyway, back to the rhetoric supporting Trump improved my sex life and I lost 25 lbs and could still eat all the pizza and fries I wanted. Hillary makes people fat.

Blogger Phillip George September 10, 2016 7:02 AM  

AltWest was the way the West was won.

Blogger VD September 10, 2016 7:05 AM  

The issue is gaming companies changing their games to appease idiots. Not that those idiots exist. Defeat game journos and you win barely anything.

You're wrong. Speaking as a game developer, who is in contact with many game developers, I can assure you that a great deal has been won. Yes, there is still a problem with SJWs infesting the game devs, but now the game devs are aware of it and are actively taking measures to deal with them.

Blogger VD September 10, 2016 7:05 AM  

You're banned and spammed, John Kelly. Don't come back.

Blogger guest September 10, 2016 7:12 AM  

Okay, I can do that. I can place myself in an Alt-West movement with ease. That makes sense to me.

Blogger Markku September 10, 2016 7:17 AM  

Taking bets as to when the first Spergatron 9000 walks away with the unalterable conclusion that if you are for Western Civilization of the Christian kind, then you cannot simultaneously be concerned about the future of the white race.

Anonymous GG-Anon September 10, 2016 7:22 AM  

You're wrong. Speaking as a game developer, who is in contact with many game developers, I can assure you that a great deal has been won. Yes, there is still a problem with SJWs infesting the game devs, but now the game devs are aware of it and are actively taking measures to deal with them.
You have rephrased what I'm trying to say. Important are the game developers. And if they are now dealing with the SJWs that is fantastic. Cause they are important. The game journos aren't.

I'm not trying to talk down GamerGate. It has been a tremendous success. Not just for what it set out to do, but waking countless people up in the process and paving the way for the internet arm of the Trumptrain. But GamerGate itself made many mistakes and suffered heavy casualties via attacks from moderates and purges and we shouldn't rewrite history in order to pretend that didn't happen. In fact I would say GamerGate was so successful in waking people up that it made them aware of bigger problems in society and thus lost them for the GamerGate goals.

When the moderates and liberales took over GamerGate and told /pol/ to get out they have been warned that another movement will crop up. That there is a culture war and that GamerGate was their shot at a seat on the table. The next movement would be one of the right, for the right, without them getting a say. That next movement is here.

Blogger VD September 10, 2016 7:24 AM  

GamerGate itself made many mistakes and suffered heavy casualties via attacks from moderates and purges and we shouldn't rewrite history in order to pretend that didn't happen. In fact I would say GamerGate was so successful in waking people up that it made them aware of bigger problems in society and thus lost them for the GamerGate goals.

Agreed. But this isn't a rewrite of history. It's not even ABOUT GAMERGATE. It's about taking some of the useful lessons of GG and applying it elsewhere.

If you want to write the true and comprehensive history of GamerGate, I'll publish it. But I am not claiming to have written it, particularly not here.

Anonymous Napoleon 12pdr September 10, 2016 7:32 AM  

I think one principle of the Alt- Right is No Reading Out of Anyone. These purity wars are partly responsible for the failure of the Old Right.

Blogger ZhukovG September 10, 2016 7:35 AM  

Vox, your 16 points seem to lean more toward the Alt-West side of the Alt-Right. Is that a fair observation? Do we need a revised set of points that include Alt-White?

Frankly, while I don't want to write anyone out of the Alt-Right, I see Germanic Neo-Pagans as a lot less valuable than Christians. But then I guess I am rather firmly in the Alt-West camp.

Blogger Nathan September 10, 2016 7:38 AM  

Vox,

I like what you've done here. I think being honest about differences and expressing exactly what you are doing is a good thing. As you know, I thought a weakness in that list. I'd offer this up for consideration as a difference between the left and right: the right can create political documents which are fundamentally honest in that they do not need to use language which is intentionally ambiguous and which can be interpreted by those getting behind the documents in very different ways. Rather, they can be clear about what they do agree on - interpreting words in basically the same way (yes, we all bring our subjectivities to bear on thins, but...), and they can also be clear about the fact that they simply do not agree on much even as they can work together (i.e. agreeing to disagree, working together and not necessarily resolving - or even discussing - the differences that do exist).

In short, the AltRight cares about truth, and the left is much more about sophism. For them, there is nothing that we should say is stable about truth - rather it, and reality with it, can always be changed.

For the AltRight, truth is in the mix. For the AltWhite, they do not want to ignore biological realities. For them what has happened or existed or is the case is very important. There is much that is "given" in life and cannot be altered by one's imagination, language, actions, etc.

The AltWest is also concerned with truth. For them, in addition to the things mentioned above, truth is about higher things: divine revelation, universal ethics (which we can make a case for existentially and historically - here, reflecting on the trans-cultural and trans-historical endurance of the Golden Rule is beneficial), unchanging natures (in heaven forever and on earth until the End - when some natures will no longer be and other things will be transformed) - spiritual realities.

Again, nice job.

+Nathan

Blogger rogerhicks September 10, 2016 7:38 AM  

Jared Taylor is definitely "Alt White", but also "Alt West". Although he shies away from the term, because of its historical associations with slavery, Jim Crow, Apartheid and white supremacism in general, Jared is, like me, a white nationalist, someone who identifies with the white, European, race.

The mainstream hates all forms of nationalism, especially white nationalism, because they identify with the STATE, which lays claim to being a nation itself, which its citizens are all supposed to identify with. Minority ethnic identities are tolerated, because not a threat to the state. Majority ethnic identity would be a threat to the state, thus its demonisation and suppression.

The state conflates and confounds very different aspects of the original tribal environment in which human nature evolved, long before the first states and civilisations emerged from it, with the modern "nation state" now deceitfully posing as our tribe or nation (intra- and inter-tribal environment) itself, while at the same time facilitating society’s SELF-exploitation (as an extra-tribal environment, on a par with the natural environment) to the personal advantage of its ruling elites and favoured (especially wealthy and academic/formerly priestly) clients, at the expense of society at large.

As anarchists realised long ago, our real enemy is the state. Only, we can't simply do away with it, as anarchists used to think. We need it, at the very least to enforce the rule of law and non-violence. What we don't need it doing, is deceitfully posing as our nation, because that is not what it is. This simply legitimises it taking on roles it shouldn't and its abuse of power.

Academics have misled us - and themselves - about the true nature of the state, because they themselves are its privileged clients and employees, with a massive personal self-interest in rationalising and defending its role, self-image (as a nation) and ideologies (social, political, economic and racial, formerly religious) which it uses to claim moral and knowledgeable authority for itself.

I elaborate on these ideas in this blog: http://philosopherkin.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/civilisation-evolutionary-cul-de-sac.html

Blogger Doom September 10, 2016 7:40 AM  

Oh noes! Monty Python got it wrong?!?

Blogger VD September 10, 2016 7:41 AM  

Vox, your 16 points seem to lean more toward the Alt-West side of the Alt-Right. Is that a fair observation? Do we need a revised set of points that include Alt-White?

That's fair. Richard and I can discuss that at the next Brainstorm, probably next week.

Blogger Nathan September 10, 2016 7:42 AM  

Sorry, I had an incomplete thought above:

"As you know, I thought a weakness in that list..."

...was that it actually undercut Christianity (I had said: "I note the neo-paganism, which is able to excise Kirk's "constant" and "enduring," while of course, real Christianity, being that it syncs with classical Greek philosophy’s notions of permanent “universals”, could never do that and remain itself.")

Anonymous GM September 10, 2016 7:42 AM  

It's gotten to the point that sometimes when I read this blog the cadences are so distinct that I hear Vox's speaking voice delivering the lines.

"It is worse than a waste of time, it is totally counterproductive to shoot at allies."

Hey Vox, did you send out the Spencer transcript to Brainstormers?

Blogger ZhukovG September 10, 2016 7:47 AM  

@19 rogerhicks I think what we need to do is view a STATE as a tool rather than a goal. If I am a German Nationalist, my goal is to save Germans; not Germany. If I need to save Germany in order to save Germans; so be it. But we must not confuse the tool with the goal.

Likewise those of us who are Americans need to accept that in order to save Americans we may have to let go of our nostalgic attachment to the American Union.

Anonymous Bohm September 10, 2016 7:48 AM  

Alt-White, Alt-West.

Is there really that much of a difference? The Alt-White sees uncontrolled immigration and miscegenation as the threat, whereas the Alt-West sees … uncontrolled immigration as the threat. Miscegenation not so much, perhaps. ‘Cultural Marxism’ and the MSM are always to blame. And so on.

The main difference appears to be political correctness. Who could argue with defending Western civilisation, especially when its definition is so fluid? Lefties, for example, argue that WC stands for, inter alia, tolerance, equality and diversity. Alt-White does’t care if people think it’s racist. Alt-West is for people who do care what folks think, to some degree at least.

I don’t doubt that VD is sincere and that there are substantial differences between the two - to an Alt-Righter. The important thing to remember is that from the outside, it all looks the same. Much like your typical Drudge reader regards even the most centrist of ‘liberals’ as one of Stalin’s little wizards.

For the time being, the Alt-Right is serving as Trump’s political machine -or at least, as the internet-native wing of the machine. The GOP has always promised social conservatism and delivered regulation, welfare rollback and monopolisation instead. The Alt-right will be similarly betrayed. There won’t be a wall, for example. Immigration will not cease. And the rampant SWJs will not be delivered unto the pyre - more’s the pity.

Any claims to be the One True Strain of the Alt-Right are spurious and should be rejected by all sides

The fact there are already ’sides’ suggest to me that VD’s is a forlorn hope.

Blogger VD September 10, 2016 7:48 AM  

Hey Vox, did you send out the Spencer transcript to Brainstormers?

Not yet, have to finish formatting it.

Blogger VD September 10, 2016 7:50 AM  

Is there really that much of a difference?

No, but enough to permit the pedantic spergs to try to derail every single discussion.

The fact there are already ’sides’ suggest to me that VD’s is a forlorn hope.

That's ridiculous. The differences are intrinsic. Much better to acknowledge them and move on to the battle together than pretend otherwise and permit the anklebiters and spergs to constantly try to "raise concerns".

Blogger ZhukovG September 10, 2016 8:01 AM  

@27 Indeed we are a long way from having to worry about differences between Alt-White and Alt-West. We can start redrawing maps later.

Anonymous karsten September 10, 2016 8:13 AM  

Just a thought: creating labels for "Alt-White" and "Alt-West" will, far from bringing these two camps together, only polarize them further.

Without such a distinction, each would sooner accept (albeit grudgingly and with "quibbles") some of the elements of the other (e.g, the crucial 14 words).

But this way, with this defined difference, quasi-cucks on various issues (esp. the JQ) will quickly embrace "Alt-West" exclusively and eschew "Alt-Right" -- and this, of course, will be the slippery slope to full-blown cuckdom for many.

And that's not even getting into how entryists will rush to grab "Alt West" and appropriate it to make it Jew-friendly.

Anonymous Ezekiel Cassandros September 10, 2016 8:16 AM  

Markku wrote:Taking bets as to when the first Spergatron 9000 walks away with the unalterable conclusion that if you are for Western Civilization of the Christian kind, then you cannot simultaneously be concerned about the future of the white race.

Did you see the guy a few threads ago saying Vox and any other Christian cannot even be called alt-right?

He even put (((Christianity))) in the echoes.

Blogger tz September 10, 2016 8:17 AM  

The Libertarians have perpetually made this mistake. It turns into anarchists v.s. minarchists who both agree on 95% but instead of attacking the 95% with action, they attack each other or write scholarly articles about their positions.

The cuckservatives have been following the libertarians since Reagan.

The Alt-Right finds itself where 95% of the institutions are corrupt and need to be torn down. And are willing to act to do so. We can resolve things when the barbarians are no more.

If to eliminate the Molech Abortion temples, I have to accept Odin temples, so be it.

If to eliminate homogamy and no-fault divorce, I have to accept anti-miscegany, so be it.

The evils today are so large and grave that lesser evils of allies are welcome.

I started with libertarians, I'll end with Christians. The various denominations have to set aside the splits other than Christendom vs Churchian. The left mob is coming to burn down all the churches or to replace the sanctuary with a safe space. We don't have time now to debate the reformation.

Anonymous Watchfull1 September 10, 2016 8:23 AM  

I would also add that to attract the masses, it would not be wise to be hostile to Christianity. Most of the American White masses still have positive attitudes towards Christianity and would be turned off by anti-Christian attitudes. I believe freedom of association/freedom of community is the one legislative component that the Alt-Right should focus on. The idea here is to let local communities decide who lives there and what sort of cultural-religious flavor it takes.

Anonymous Philipp September 10, 2016 8:24 AM  

Excellent advice, Vox (as usual). Every successful political movement has several wings (or roots as you call them). Otherwise it would always remain miniscule and insignificant.

We should focus our fire on our common enemies. There are certainly enough of them.

Blogger Josh (the gayest thing here) September 10, 2016 8:27 AM  

And that's not even getting into how entryists will rush to grab "Alt West" and appropriate it to make it Jew-friendly.

If that forward-focused nationalism sounds good to you, then regardless of whether you are more Alt-White or Alt-West, you are at the very least sympathetic to the Alt-Right.

What is zionism if not forward-focused nationalism? Doesn't "never again" = "We must secure the existence of Jewish people and a future for Jewish children?"

Blogger ZhukovG September 10, 2016 8:27 AM  

@29 The '14 Words' are just as crucial to the Alt-West as to the Alt-White. You cannot be Alt-Right without agreeing to those words.

Blogger Patriotic Canadian September 10, 2016 8:27 AM  

So where does TRS fall on the alt right scale? I'm still trying to figure out all this alt right stuff. I more or less agree with just about everything I've read and listened to. Would it be fair to say alt west is at least Israel tolerant?

Anonymous karsten September 10, 2016 8:28 AM  

"Taking bets as to when the first Spergatron 9000 walks away with the unalterable conclusion that if you are for Western Civilization of the Christian kind, then you cannot simultaneously be concerned about the future of the white race."

That's pretty much exactly the position taken by Dreher and his ultra-cucked ilk.

Anonymous Ezekiel Cassandros September 10, 2016 8:30 AM  

karsten wrote:Just a thought: creating labels for "Alt-White" and "Alt-West" will, far from bringing these two camps together, only polarize them further.

Without such a distinction, each would sooner accept (albeit grudgingly and with "quibbles") some of the elements of the other (e.g, the crucial 14 words).


Did you deliberately satirize the globalist concept of cramming two actually distinct people groups together and pretending they're the same thing to force them to integrate? Or was that an accident?

Blogger ZhukovG September 10, 2016 8:32 AM  

@34 I fully support the goal of the '14 Jewish Words', and Israel is the perfect place for them to pursue it.

Blogger Josh (the gayest thing here) September 10, 2016 8:34 AM  

@34 I fully support the goal of the '14 Jewish Words', and Israel is the perfect place for them to pursue it.

I agree

Blogger VD September 10, 2016 8:35 AM  

What is zionism if not forward-focused nationalism? Doesn't "never again" = "We must secure the existence of Jewish people and a future for Jewish children?"

Exactly. The Alt-West is entirely compatible with Zionism and Israel. The Alt-White is less so.

So where does TRS fall on the alt right scale?

I don't speak for them, my perception is that they lean more Alt White than Alt West. Some of them read here, perhaps they can speak with more authority on the matter.

Would it be fair to say alt west is at least Israel tolerant?

Certainly. Jewish nationalism is no less legitimate than white nationalism or any other nationalism.

Anonymous Ezekiel Cassandros September 10, 2016 8:36 AM  

Patriotic Canadian wrote:So where does TRS fall on the alt right scale?

Definitely Alt-White. Grudgingly tolerant of Christians, generally skeptical of the idea that the Jews can be expected to ever peacefully withdraw to Israel and mind their own business.

Blogger VD September 10, 2016 8:38 AM  

Just a thought: creating labels for "Alt-White" and "Alt-West" will, far from bringing these two camps together, only polarize them further.

You're wrong. Although it will tend to demonstrate what I already suspect, which is that the Alt-West will be the more popular camp.

And that's not even getting into how entryists will rush to grab "Alt West" and appropriate it to make it Jew-friendly.

You'd rather have them appropriate Alt-Right? Think of it as a useful defensive barrier. Besides, I think you underrate our capacity for dealing successfully with entryists. We of the Alt West branch are the heirs of the Spanish Inquisition, after all.

Blogger VD September 10, 2016 8:44 AM  

Regardless... already in bending over backwards to accommodate Jewish interests, some elements of the Alt-Right display the usual cuck tendencies of our white "pathological altruism."

Go away, Karsten. I'm not interested in your irrelevant whining. If you could strategize or communicate your way out of a paper bag, you wouldn't be here attempting to hijack the mic.

The entire point of the post clearly eluded you.

Blogger ZhukovG September 10, 2016 8:49 AM  

@44 Since Palestinians are Arabs, I fully support the goal of 'The 14 Arab Words' and there is a plethora of places for them to pursue it.

Also there should never be a presumption of any but voluntary material support for Zionism regardless of what they do.

Anonymous Darth Dharmakīrti September 10, 2016 8:51 AM  

@karsten

You're wrong about Dreher. He just doesn't distinguish between Odinist 1488 and "Alt-Right," probably because he doesn't know enough to be able to. But he straight up identified as broadly NRx in his latest post and I know from personal experience that he cares deeply about maintaining the West and European culture. He's probably too squishy on miscegenation for your tastes, but he is concerned about the future of whites.

Blogger ZhukovG September 10, 2016 8:54 AM  

@46 Dreher flat out stated that you cannot be Alt-Right and a Christian. Frankly, I believe he will eventually come around, but he has a long way to go.

Blogger totenhenchen September 10, 2016 9:00 AM  

..it is positive and prescriptive in nature as opposed to being intrinsically defensive...

THIS!

The best thing about the alt-right is that it's on offense - something conservatism never accomplished. The alt-right has taken the back alley knife fight to the ossified enemy while the cucks wax impotent about the moral superiority of Marquess of Queensberry rules.

Anonymous Darth Dharmakīrti September 10, 2016 9:00 AM  

@ZhukovG

As I said above, he doesn't seem to understand that Alt-Right supervenes Odinist 1488. Obviously you can't be Odinist and Christian (or (((Christian))) as that tool from a couple days ago put it).

Blogger totenhenchen September 10, 2016 9:01 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger ZhukovG September 10, 2016 9:05 AM  

@49 I think you are being more charitable in your assessment of Dreher then he currently deserves. But, like I said, I think he will eventually join us.

Anonymous Great Again September 10, 2016 9:05 AM  

I wish Trump would signal his acceptance of the "no enemies to the right" principle. The next time some leftist journalist asks him to disavow support from the WN crowd, Trump should say that he will not disavow support from anybody. He'll happily accept votes from the extreme left, the extreme right and anybody in between. He'll take the votes of anybody who wants to make America great again.

Anonymous Philipp September 10, 2016 9:20 AM  

@51: ZhukovG

I don't think Dreher will ever join the Alt-Right. He is the cuckiest cuckservative after all.

Anonymous Bohm September 10, 2016 9:21 AM  

The differences are intrinsic. Much better to acknowledge them and move on to the battle together than pretend otherwise

On the one hand, you’re right - it is better for any movement to remain united.

On the other, some people may not feel the way you do. White nationalism is an easy target, for good reason. Some Alt-Westers may not be comfortable going into battle side by side with Alt-Whiters. Feel free to dismiss me as a concern troll, but there it is.

As I said, the Alt- Right is currently operating as the millennial arm of Trump’s machine. After the election, what happens? To find another candidate like Trump, the Alt-Right will have to organise, properly. This will inevitably lead to splits and schisms. That’s institutional theory.

Bare in mind, however, that I said on this very blog that the Mexican wall was Trump jumping the shark. It turned out to be his master stroke. So my predictions are as foolproof as the next man’s.

Blogger Nate September 10, 2016 9:23 AM  

Forward Focused Nationalism.

Roll Tide.

We're not here to stand our ground. We're hear to take ground.

Anonymous GetUpStandUp September 10, 2016 9:27 AM  

@25 " Alt-White, Alt-West. Is there really that much of a difference?"

I'm happy enough with victory from either faction as long as at least one of them 'wins'. Cultural/civilizational change ALWAYS comes. The main thing is that as change happens to the Western peoples, it is organic, that is, that it is either happening naturally or that it has the informed consent of Western peoples. The change that I have a problem with is that which is engineered by and FORCED UPON US by those who hate us and want the kind of change that will lead to the disappearance of Western peoples from the Earth.

Western men of goodwill can quibble over details of the new order after the attempted genocide has been averted. I speak only for myself, but it will be a cold day in hell before I revert to the leftist mentality of eating one's own.

Anonymous Bohm September 10, 2016 9:32 AM  

btw, defenders of Western civilisation need to worry about three basic things. In roughly ascending order: energy efficiency, food security and waste disposal. Not as entertaining as culture wars, I grant you, but without these interlocking pillars it’s all for nought -cathedrals, Bach, Shakespeare, Ghostbusters, everything.

Blogger Markku September 10, 2016 9:33 AM  

It was always completely impossible that the two sides of Alt-Right would mix. As in, create a network of interpersonal connections such that wouldn't IMMEDIATELY show two glaringly obvious cliques if mapped. For example, I have perhaps about 50 such connections that are active on a daily basis, and there are precisely zero Alt-Whites in them. This did not happen by design, it just went that way. Because I have nothing in common with them, such that would form a basis of friendship. It's not that we actively reject each other, it's that it wouldn't ever even occur to be friends with each other.

So, the only question is, when will the two sides start shooting at each other rather than the common enemy. Because that IS going to happen. It would be incredibly naive to think that it isn't. But I'd prefer it to happen as late in the game as possible.

Blogger VD September 10, 2016 9:34 AM  

Some Alt-Westers may not be comfortable going into battle side by side with Alt-Whiters. Feel free to dismiss me as a concern troll, but there it is.

Then we'll set them to other battles. The point is, it will be easier for both sides to ally with the other if they don't have to wear the exact same label. Both are still Alt Right, both share far more objectives than they don't share in the current circumstances.

Blogger Leo Littlebook in Shenzhen September 10, 2016 9:34 AM  

Demoting vanilla Alt Right to "Alt West" stops the WNs from attempting to retake the federal appellation.

Why not just ask them nicely? Well, these are guys who have been repeating "Anti-racism is anti-white" for years, instead of "racist means white."

I'm so racist I don't even cast a shadow anymore. Did you know Hitler's pupils were white? When he stands against a white background you can Nazi him. That's how he snuck up on the Jews. Jews can't be racist because they're not white. Blacks only come out after dark because they're hiding from invisible Nazis. That's why you can't see white males on TV, except ones who've taken enough black dick to have an outline.

Blogger VD September 10, 2016 9:37 AM  

Demoting vanilla Alt Right to "Alt West" stops the WNs from attempting to retake the federal appellation.

There is no need for them to do so. The point is to avoid conflict with substantial allies sharing objectives.

Anonymous Roundtine September 10, 2016 9:41 AM  

Most people agree with the bulk of white nationalism, that is the biggest issue for white nationalists.

Anonymous Kudos The Lexecutioner September 10, 2016 9:47 AM  

GamerGate: "Shut up and email."

Alt-Right: "Shut up and fight the Left."

Blogger Mr.MantraMan September 10, 2016 9:52 AM  

Anti-racism is a code word for anti-white

Blogger James Jones September 10, 2016 9:52 AM  

From a PR point of view, the alt west is a better epithet than alt white.

Blogger James Jones September 10, 2016 9:52 AM  

From a PR point of view, the alt west is a better epithet than alt white.

Anonymous That Would Be Telling September 10, 2016 10:02 AM  

@65 & @66 James Jones:

From a PR point of view, the alt west is a better epithet than alt white.

Perhaps, given the decades of "anti-racism" propaganda we've been subjected to, but who exactly is this "PR" trying to reach?

OpenID bc64a9f8-765e-11e3-8683-000bcdcb2996 September 10, 2016 10:05 AM  

Judeo-Christian,Alt-right, alt-west,African-American,ad nauseam.
I'll just stick with "It's not the specific destination, it's a way of traveling". Oh sure, Neo-philosophical
theses are amusing, yet I'll stick with the classics.
(ie)Brothers Grimm, Bremen Town Musicians.
Just don't be the obvious "follower", lest you step in all the hyphens left on the trail ahead of you.
Of course sign posts, at the fork in the road, CAN be helpful:
Matthew 6:24, Luke 16:13
CaptDMO

Blogger ValeriusMaximus September 10, 2016 10:10 AM  

TRS, at least so far as the podcast presenters are concerned, seems to be a mixture of agnostics/atheists and Christians, with probably more of the former. Those on the Fatherland podcast are explicitly Christian and discuss it frequently. McFeels and Halberstram from Fash the Nation described themselves at some point as lapsed Catholics. The Daily Shoah crew I think is mostly agnostic/atheistic, but I am not sure about all of them.

Richard Spencer, I wouldn't describe as a White Nationalist; he supports, at least as an ideal, a kind of Imperial form which includes all white nations. For a real white nationalist, see Greg Johnson at Counter-Currents, who is of the opinion that the alt-right means white nationalism, or it means nothing.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan September 10, 2016 10:15 AM  

He or she who discredits the Beast is a potential ally. He or she who does more is worth more, tone policing does little.

And Hillary is handing us a Yuge hammer, and I pray to the gods the spergs don't derail us into another "intellectual discussion" and waste this great opportunity.

Blogger VD September 10, 2016 10:20 AM  

Alt-Right: "Shut up and fight the Left."

I shortened this to: SHUT UP AND SHOOT LEFT.

Blogger Salt September 10, 2016 10:27 AM  

VD wrote:The Alt-West is entirely compatible with Zionism and Israel. The Alt-White is less so.

The Alt-White is the embodiment of Freedom of Association.

Blogger Lovekraft September 10, 2016 10:30 AM  

Milo pushed the idea on his CNBC interview of the alt-right being pro-Western, as opposed to a whites-only movement. Brilliant way to redirect the discussion onto what Western values are.

To the marxists, everything Western that they have not fully tainted or leeched off of, is just more fodder. To us, we realize that the things we are preserving will make us stronger, not them.

We will then couch our Western values in explicit anti-Marxist terms: achievement over victimhood, rule of law over mob rule, effective media over shills, masculinity over feminism etc.

Blogger Lovekraft September 10, 2016 10:37 AM  

Here is a scenario which we should consider:

yet another jihadist mass murder. Mainstream society compassion typically extends to hand wringing and drum circle hippy crap, with the race hustler NoBordersBarack going so far as to say it is our fault these mohammedans are doing this.

My response is primarily: for the victims, their families and loved ones. They are the ones who need support and a determination from us that we will hold every open borders politician and antifa marxist accountable. The mohammedans will be expelled as their dna prevents inclusion in open societies.

Turned on its head, a white nationalist loses his sh!t and our response should be:

we empathize with the WN, but will also be stern in condemning his tactic should it provide ammo to the enemy. We will work to keep our dogs on a leash but will also demand they be given the conditions within which they don't feel the need for violence.

Not a pacifist approach, but one which recognizes such an event is what the marxists are desperate for.

Blogger VD September 10, 2016 10:45 AM  

we empathize with the WN, but will also be stern in condemning his tactic should it provide ammo to the enemy. We will work to keep our dogs on a leash but will also demand they be given the conditions within which they don't feel the need for violence.

No. Shut up and shoot left. The correct response to rhetorical demands for ritual denunciations is silence.

Blogger Desiderius September 10, 2016 10:45 AM  

"We should focus our fire on our common enemies. There are certainly enough of them."

Mile wide and inch deep. Break their lines and they'll be headed for the hills.

Blogger VD September 10, 2016 10:47 AM  

seems

All right, that's enough, Bohm. It's increasingly apparent that you're a shill, specifically, The Defeatist. You can still comment here, but not on any post related to the Alt-Right.

Blogger VD September 10, 2016 10:50 AM  

Milo pushed the idea on his CNBC interview of the alt-right being pro-Western, as opposed to a whites-only movement. Brilliant way to redirect the discussion onto what Western values are.

It is, but remember, Milo is not Alt-Right. He is still driven by Ideology Politics, in part because his identities are so complicated. So, being "pro-Western" is not sufficient, not even for the Alt-West.

Identity Politics are the rules of the game now. Remember, the forward pass was once illegal too, but putting together a game plan based on that outmoded rule is doomed to certain failure.

Blogger Salt September 10, 2016 10:54 AM  

Markku wrote:It was always completely impossible that the two sides of Alt-Right would mix.

Don't have to mix. Alt-West and Alt-White recognize the same targets. Shoot left. Why worry about oil mixing with water? Both exist in harmony, each serving their distinct role, without ever fighting it out.

Alt-West, I'd recommend leaving the Alt-White alone unless you're discussing target acquisition.

Blogger Markku September 10, 2016 11:00 AM  

Yes, I hope that the inevitable struggle for power among the two groups comes only after Alt-Right has taken the number one position in amount of wielded political power. Until that happens, it is in both groups' best interests to shoot at the common enemy, that is still bigger than even the two of us together, rather than shooting at each other.

Blogger rogerhicks September 10, 2016 11:03 AM  

#71 VD

"I shortened this to: SHUT UP AND SHOOT LEFT."

I have friends and family on the Left, and a lot of sympathy for those who mean well, but are misguided by leftwing ideology, so please, don't shoot any of them.

Don't shoot anyone. We must prove ourselves morally superior to the Left, which is defined by its own sense of moral superiority, by controlling our anger and keeping our struggle non-violent, even when provoked.

Blogger Salt September 10, 2016 11:05 AM  

Markku wrote:the inevitable struggle for power among the two groups comes only after Alt-Right has taken the number one position in amount of wielded political power.

I do not see that as any concern. Alt-White is a much smaller subset of Alt-Right than Alt-West is. To maintain harmony, leave them be. This goes to my previous of Alt-White being the embodiment of Freedom of Association. I would only see them as taking issue should their freedom be curtailed. Othewise, I don't see them as taking any issue with Alt-West based control in the slightest.

Blogger Markku September 10, 2016 11:06 AM  

I'm not saying it as a concern. I'm saying that it's better to acknowledge obvious reality, than deny it.

Blogger VD September 10, 2016 11:07 AM  

I have friends and family on the Left, and a lot of sympathy for those who mean well, but are misguided by leftwing ideology, so please, don't shoot any of them.

We don't have any sympathy for them at all. They are part of the problem.

Don't shoot anyone. We must prove ourselves morally superior to the Left, which is defined by its own sense of moral superiority, by controlling our anger and keeping our struggle non-violent, even when provoked.

Stow it, Cucky. There are many things the Alt-Right is not. Gandhi is very close to the top of the list.

Blogger Markku September 10, 2016 11:08 AM  

please, don't shoot any of them.

Sigh. Fine. FINE. We'll baynonet them.

Blogger Salt September 10, 2016 11:11 AM  

Markku wrote:I'm not saying it as a concern. I'm saying that it's better to acknowledge obvious reality, than deny it.

I'd suggest querrying members of Alt-White about it. The reality of it. If we're on the same page, and I'm betting we are way more than not, then we're good to go. Wheel-turn left, engage.

Blogger Salt September 10, 2016 11:12 AM  

Markku wrote:Sigh. Fine. FINE. We'll baynonet them.

Proper method of bringing a knife to a gun fight.

Blogger rogerhicks September 10, 2016 11:15 AM  

#84 VD

Do you have no friends or family, or individuals you otherwise admire, on the Left?

Hate the ideology, not those beholden to it.

Correction: Don't hate anything, because that prevents us from understanding it. And the only way to defeat a pernicious ideology is to understand it.

Blogger ValeriusMaximus September 10, 2016 11:16 AM  

I have friends and family on the Left, and a lot of sympathy for those who mean well, but are misguided by leftwing ideology, so please, don't shoot any of them.

I won't speak for Vox, but I suspect he was speaking metaphorically.

We must prove ourselves morally superior to the Left, which is defined by its own sense of moral superiority, by controlling our anger and keeping our struggle non-violent, even when provoked.

The left will view us as morally inferior no matter what we do. How about we win instead and judge our actions by our own standards.

Blogger Desillusionerad September 10, 2016 11:16 AM  

The more interesting question i think is if there is an Alt-left contingent.
Both the alt-west and the alt-white, should be able to field alt-left contingents.
After all alt-white group should be able to appeal to lefties regarding say outsourcing, and the alt-west group should be able to appeal to the (sadly nearly extinct) classical liberal, the people who values free speech, democracy, you know stuff that is banned in the Quran.
Though i suppose the latter group has probably been pushed out into the right wing already.

Blogger Markku September 10, 2016 11:17 AM  

I THOUGHT he was parodying cucks, but now I find myself not being 100% sure.

Blogger Markku September 10, 2016 11:18 AM  

I'd say, Alt-Left is Bernietards.

Blogger Markku September 10, 2016 11:20 AM  

Since the "Alt" has no implications of nationalism or anything like that per se. It just means "alternative". Bernietards are angry at Establishment Left, so I think they are the best candidate for being "Alt-Left".

Blogger Markku September 10, 2016 11:21 AM  

Then, there are those who are nationalists and socialist. They are called National Socialists.

Blogger Aeoli Pera September 10, 2016 11:24 AM  

It divides us into the goals we each specifically want and we don't all want the same things. What appeases you will not appease another etc.

Important underlying logic here for divide and conquer.

Blogger Desillusionerad September 10, 2016 11:24 AM  

I think if one is to boil down the 'alt' to anything its an alternative to globalism - or perhaps a return of 'nationalism' after the 'inoculation' of the holocaust.
This certainly has political implications (that its okay for the state to care more about its own citizens than non-citizens for one)
but that does not necessarily mean nationalism.

Anonymous That Would Be Telling September 10, 2016 11:27 AM  

@81 rogerhicks:

@71 VD

"I shortened this to: SHUT UP AND SHOOT LEFT."


I have friends and family on the Left, and a lot of sympathy for those who mean well, but are misguided by leftwing ideology, so please, don't shoot any of them.


And we should care about your feelings why?

Don't shoot anyone. We must prove ourselves morally superior to the Left, which is defined by its own sense of moral superiority, by controlling our anger and keeping our struggle non-violent, even when provoked.

It has apparently escaped your notice that the Left has been literally shooting at us for decades in the US, and has historically shot or otherwise dealt with their enemies by killing millions of them, several hundred million in the 20th Century even if you don't count the Nazis.

If you think I'm going to leave counter-violence out of my menu of options to spare your misguided friends and family who are, quite literally, even if some of them don't realize it, trying to kill my friends and family, you are incapable of thinking straight about this whole situation. And in serious need of reevaluating your relationships.

And when things get nasty, such as when the free stuff times wind down for a while, you're going to have to decide who's side your on, and as a hot shooting war almost inevitably starts, well, I hope by then you've realized the error of your ways and who's side you're really on. In the meanwhile, as our host notes, we're not going to pay any attention to your idiotic message.

For that matter, you're pretty much identified yourself as one of our enemies, and that ought to give you pause.

Blogger Leo Littlebook in Shenzhen September 10, 2016 11:28 AM  

The price of a marriage between Alt White and Alt Christ is a dowry of 100 mestizo foreskins.

David doubled it.

Anonymous Mr. Rational September 10, 2016 11:29 AM  

Markku wrote:Taking bets as to when the first Spergatron 9000 walks away with the unalterable conclusion that if you are for Western Civilization of the Christian kind, then you cannot simultaneously be concerned about the future of the white race.
Not concluding, questioning.  Many pushing Christianity and its implicit spiritual universalism do not seem to take well any suggestion that Christianity might not be sufficient for Western culture.  On the other hand, the evidence from third-world believer communities both without and within the West says "no way".  So where do you fall?  Does it matter?

I'm reluctant to call myself Alt-White or any other label more specific than alt-right, but I'm sure not down with racial inclusion.  IME it just doesn't work well except in a few, rather specific circumstances.

Anonymous BGKB September 10, 2016 11:30 AM  

rogerhicks please, don't shoot any of them.

If you like I can give you a list of my ex boyfriends to shoot.

And the only way to defeat a pernicious ideology is to understand it.

Vlad Tepes certainly understood how to deal with moslems. He elevated them above his own people.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan September 10, 2016 11:31 AM  

Since being a white "male" I am by civil rights law a second class citizen because I am not a "protected class" designee, and I might say to Hicks' beloved relatives I hope they change their minds before the shooting starts.

I do not want to be a second class citizen in the country of my ancestors.

"Protected class" is the legal term and it seems "deplorables" is the opposite in Hillary's world

Blogger Markku September 10, 2016 11:32 AM  

Not concluding, questioning. Many pushing Christianity and its implicit spiritual universalism do not seem to take well any suggestion that Christianity might not be sufficient for Western culture

Of course not. Christianity is our one, non-negotiable identity. I would sell Europe to Islam, before giving up Christianity, and I wouldn't even CONSIDER the alternative.

Blogger Markku September 10, 2016 11:33 AM  

And that is what will bring the eventual conflict, because the Alt-Whites aren't even capable of understanding what Christianity is to us, because they themselves are just LARPing religion. We aren't.

Blogger Markku September 10, 2016 11:41 AM  

THAT, I think, will be the eventual powder keg that will cause the sides to start shooting at each other. Because they don't realize that for us, the hierarchy of values is essentially that Christianity is the Stella Polaris, and the rest, including white identity, are a molehill on the ground. There is NOTHING we wouldn't sacrifice, if the alternative is sacrificing Christianity.

Whereas they will eventually figure that this one other thing - whatever it will be - is so important that they have to force everybody to compromise on Christianity. And then it's immediately total war.

Anonymous That Would Be Telling September 10, 2016 11:44 AM  

@88 rogerhicks:

Don't hate anything, because that prevents us from understanding it. And the only way to defeat a pernicious ideology is to understand it.

Eh, killing enough of those who hold these beliefs so that the rest shut the fuck up for a generation or two also works.

And those on the Left are quite literally mentally ill in much less specific ways than the better established disorders, and are in a spectrum that can't really be treated, as far as I know, so why try so hard to understand them at that level? Is trying so to deeply understand the irrational really all that mentally healthy anyway?

Now, some people realize the error of their ways with enough life experience. Riffing off the old saying, if they're in their 30s and still of the Left, they're pretty hopeless, although I suppose a shooting war will clue some fraction in, there's Anonymous Conservative's application of r/K theory that says that'll happen to a lot of the "rabbits", or something like that.

But in the meanwhile, they're trying to kill us, so, no, "hate" is quite appropriate, as well as all the things that flow from it.

Blogger rcocean September 10, 2016 11:45 AM  

"I don't think Dreher will ever join the Alt-Right. He is the cuckiest cuckservative after all."

Exactly. Rod's whole shtick is being a "reasonable conservative" who agrees with every important liberal assumption but wants religious conservatives to be left alone and to nit-pick at liberal excesses. His whole answer to 50 years of liberal assault is to run away and hide (The Benedict option).

Blogger rcocean September 10, 2016 11:49 AM  

BTW, this is a great post. I'm always amazed at how many Right-wingers get energized at fighting each other instead of the Left. And one thing the Alt-right needs to ditch is the conservative habit of bringing people who are 25-50% with us into the "Big Tent" and then giving them the microphone and putting them in charge. Bringing in allies is a good thing, but you don't put them in charge.

Blogger Salt September 10, 2016 11:54 AM  

Markku wrote:There is NOTHING we wouldn't sacrifice, if the alternative is sacrificing Christianity.

Markku, Christianity has survived over 2000 years of people wishing to eradicate it. You worry to much.

Blogger Markku September 10, 2016 11:55 AM  

You clearly don't understand about 95% of what I say, Salt.

Blogger rogerhicks September 10, 2016 12:00 PM  

#94 Markku

"Then, there are those who are nationalists and socialist. They are called National Socialists."

Nationalism and socialism are both deeply rooted in man's inherent tribal nature, which is why they have been extremely popular and powerful motivators in modern history, which is also why they have been repeated hijacked by political parties and individuals seeking to exploit them for their own power-political ends.

The Nazis knew what they were doing when they hijacked both, combined them, and incorporated this combination into the very name of their party.

It is a tragedy that the concept of national socialism, to this day, remains under Nazi occupation, which no one dares even approach, ironically, thanks largely to the efforts of "anti-fascists".

Socialism is in fact a logical consequence of nationalism. Members of the same nation see each other as brothers and sisters, and share. It was on the assumption of shared nationhood that in Britain the welfare state was founded in the aftermath of WW2. After six years of total war there was a very strong sense of shared national identity.

Unfortunately, Britain was never a genuine nation, but always just a mercenary "patron state" deceitfully posing as a nation, in order to legitimise itself, its ruling elites and the immense power they wield and abuse. The same applies to America and every other so-called "nation state", of course.

Man is an inherently social and tribal animal. A sharing society (as ideally envisaged by good socialists) is the only kind of society that has a long-term future. Man's exploitation of his fellow man, which characterises capitalism, is bound to fail in the longer term.

What went wrong - repeatedly - with socialism, was the attempt to impose or implement it from the top down by the state. And, of course, it can't possible work in a multi-ethnic state, posing as a nation, with all its ethnic divisions. It can only be made work within the framework of a genuine nation, from the bottom up.

National socialism needs to be freed of its ugly Nazi associations and renamed "multinational socialism", which is more appropriate now in the West, where we now all live in multi-ethnic, i.e. multinational, states.

It's a huge challenge, but the only hope I see of our civilisation surviving.

Anonymous That Would Be Telling September 10, 2016 12:01 PM  

@104 Markku:

Whereas they will eventually figure that this one other thing - whatever it will be - is so important that they have to force everybody to compromise on Christianity. And then it's immediately total war.

All well and good and I agree 100%, but can you tell me where I can find some of this "Christianity"? Is any of it still to be found in the post-Vatican II Roman Catholic Church I was brought up in my youth? I see the clergy being right about a few things, although I think few of the laity in the US agree with them, but otherwise they're our sworn enemies on immigration, socialism, and so on.

The mainline Protestant denominations (initially misspelled that as "demoniations", which is probably more accurate) are totally gone now, and entirely our enemies. How many of the rest aren't Churchians with their own 0th or 11th Commandants, and generally our enemies?

I'm not asking how to find or create such a group, which has been well enough covered in previous discussions, but how to fashion a "shoot/don't shoot", so to speak, rule.

Blogger Markku September 10, 2016 12:06 PM  

That Would Be Telling wrote:can you tell me where I can find some of this "Christianity"?

No, I can't. If I could, I'd be fucking there, yesterday.

But what I mean is that the kind of person who I call a "Christian" in this context, holds a certain set of truth-claims to be true, based on the Bible. And the important thing to understand is that he will sacrifice his life, your life, and everybody's life, before sacrificing them.

So, any strategy that includes mandating Christians to pretend to believe something they don't in fact believe, is doomed to fail. They will fight with the exact same fanaticism as the Muslims, if they are real Christians.

Blogger dc.sunsets September 10, 2016 12:08 PM  

Looks to me like the smart thing to do is adhere to the idea of always being sympathetic to the Alt-Right rather than a card-carrying member. As Milo demonstrated, this presents a slippery target for the discredit/disqualify clowns. I can see political parties arising that hew toward Alt-Right but never a "unified" Alt-Right party. This would render impossible the fate that befell the Tea Party.

Blogger Markku September 10, 2016 12:08 PM  

On the other hand, if you're not a Christian, you would be absolutely BAFFLED at how content they are if you just give them ONE thing: Not getting in the way of living out their religion. They will pretty much tolerate any other inconvenience and want.

Anonymous 5343 September 10, 2016 12:09 PM  

There is NOTHING we wouldn't sacrifice, if the alternative is sacrificing Christianity

Those willing to "sacrifice Christianity" lose their own souls, that is to say their own part in it.

There is no actual danger of Christianity being eradicated because the gates of Hell cannot prevail against it.

Blogger Leo Littlebook in Shenzhen September 10, 2016 12:10 PM  

This Christian will happily fight alongside white pagans and atheists to preserve and expand the white race, regardless of their plans for my extermination afterwards.

The unique combination of altruism, honesty and intelligence makes the white race Christendom's most fertile soil. Anti-Christian persecutions are just part of the cyclical nature of history. No sense salting the earth over a bad harvest.

Only a direct order from Jehovah would change my mind, and those occur at geological frequencies.

Only whites are allowed to kill whites.

Blogger dc.sunsets September 10, 2016 12:14 PM  

@ rogerhicks, wrong.

Socialism is an impossible construct, doomed by its refusal to grasp that it precludes the only means of discovery necessary to wisely allocate resources.

Unless you employ Newspeak to redefine the word, a socialist "economy" cannot generate factor prices.

Some stupid ideas just never die; always there's someone who claims the circle can be squared.

Blogger Leo Littlebook in Shenzhen September 10, 2016 12:20 PM  

Socialism works, just add subsidiarity and subtract atomization.

See New Testament, primitive tribes.

Anonymous GetUpStandUp September 10, 2016 12:23 PM  

@14 This sounds like crazy talk to me. While I am of Christian heritage, I am not a believing Christian. One of the little red pills that led me here and other alt-right sites was the awakening not just to the rabid hatred of the globalist left to Christianity, but to its confident if not brazen openness.

What exactly does alt-Christ, or whatever you want to call it, want beyond that which we non-Christians want? Not to be persecuted for being Christian? You got it. To be able to educate your children as you see fit? You got it. Not to be taxed to pay for culture or whatever that you see as abomination? You got it. /etc etc etc/ Anyone with a single functioning brain cell understands that Christianity is the core of the West, whether we are literal believers or not. You are not only not going to get arguments from me on measures to protect Christianity in the West, but I will support them. Maybe the difference in perspective here is that I am an American. Maybe the non-Christian alt-right in Europe is less sympathetic to Christianity. Certainly, the human landscape of the struggle will be different.

Blogger Sheila4g September 10, 2016 12:25 PM  

@78 VD: "It is, but remember, Milo is not Alt-Right. He is still driven by Ideology Politics, in part because his identities are so complicated. So, being "pro-Western" is not sufficient, not even for the Alt-West.

Identity Politics are the rules of the game now."

@102 Markku: "Of course not. Christianity is our one, non-negotiable identity. I would sell Europe to Islam, before giving up Christianity, and I wouldn't even CONSIDER the alternative."

Vox and Markku - these two comments seem, to me, to be contradictory. Vox notes that, to be any sort of Alt Right, one must recognize the primacy of identity - primarily biological identity. It is why he specifically says he is not White (Vox, please correct me wherever I misinterpret or misstate your position). At the same time, Vox is most definitely Christian, and (I believe) utterly opposed to giving Western Europe to Islam under any circumstances.

While he notes the Alt West is Christian, he still includes as a vital part of the Alt West a belief in the future of the White race (admittedly, I suppose it does not absolutely have to be in Europe, but I don't know that Vox or anyone else would be content giving up the homeland of the White race). The slight difference, as I am reading it, is that Alt White is both Alt West and purely Alt White (i.e. biological determinism). As a Christian, one can surely believe in HBD but simultaneously free well, so that while identity is biological and predictive, it is not utterly determinative in every instance.

I'd appreciate both your comments and corrections re this question; obviously it is important to me personally, but I believe for many others as well.

Blogger Markku September 10, 2016 12:26 PM  

Yep, those things. None of us want people among us, whom WE forced to pretend to believe something they don't believe. We have a serious problem with infiltrators as it is, it would be totally insane to mandate infiltration by law.

Blogger VD September 10, 2016 12:27 PM  

Do you have no friends or family, or individuals you otherwise admire, on the Left?

Sure. I don't let that get in my way. They made their choice, they can experience the consequences.

Don't hate anything, because that prevents us from understanding it. And the only way to defeat a pernicious ideology is to understand it.

I studied Marxian economics. I probably understand cultural Marxism better than most. And I hate it BECAUSE I understand it.

Anonymous GetUpStandUp September 10, 2016 12:27 PM  

@119

was supposed to be a response to 104, not 14

Blogger VD September 10, 2016 12:29 PM  

Vox and Markku - these two comments seem, to me, to be contradictory.

They're not contradictory at all. Not giving up Christianity does not mean permitting Christians who are not purple to live in a purple ethno-state.

Blogger Markku September 10, 2016 12:31 PM  

Vox and Markku - these two comments seem, to me, to be contradictory. Vox notes that, to be any sort of Alt Right, one must recognize the primacy of identity - primarily biological identity.

To be Alt-Right, yes. Because that discussion is looking at what is at the top of the molehill. And to me it's the white race. At this point, since Alt-Right is not in competition with Christianity, that is what the camera is zoomed at, so to speak.

But if at ANY point someone would require us to change our religion, or to make a religious compromise that would effectively render our religion as something other than Christianity, then that is when the camera zooms back, and all you see is the horizon, and Stella Polaris.

That is what I'm trying to say. Trying to force such a compromise would be immediate suicide for the movement, because it would make us their mortal enemies in an instant.


To put it in other words, I'm Alt-Right, and I'm a Christian. These are two different identities, about different contexts of my life.

Blogger Markku September 10, 2016 12:41 PM  

Yes, 121 was in response to it. But to further explain my thinking: I have seen many instances of Alt-Right atheists thinking along the lines of "We need to improve on Christianity to better suit our agenda, or switch it to a more effective religion like Odinism." And this is EXACTLY what Hitler did. First, he invented "Positive Christianity" and when basically everybody rejected it, he went for full-blown paganism.

I understand the thinking perfectly, IF you have never had a real religion. You will think of them as interchangeable, because you cannot understand the mindset of someone with an actual religion.

And this is such an obvious and tempting thing to try, that I believe it will be tried by someone at some point. But as I said earlier, I'm already thinking forward to the time when Alt-Right has already won the culture war, about what lies after that. Hopefully by that time, the Alt-White and the Alt-West has interacted with each other enough that they understand how absolute and utter suicide that attempt would be, and it will be averted.

Blogger Markku September 10, 2016 12:43 PM  

And, to reiterate my position: I hope we will refrain from shooting at each other for as long as possible. I just think it realistically won't be forever.

Blogger Leo Littlebook in Shenzhen September 10, 2016 12:48 PM  

Yep, that's what defeated Hitler. Those Biblicist Christians with their enormous steppes and endless tank divisions. Europe better watch out, cuz 75 years has made them even scarier.

Blogger Markku September 10, 2016 12:52 PM  

Correct. Americans did. If Hitler hadn't forced the remaining Christendom's hand by overreach, USA would probably never have joined the war, and we'd have the Third Reich here instead of the Fourth Reich.

Blogger ManofGondor September 10, 2016 12:55 PM  

Here, here! As someone new to the movement I offer this: As a life-long devout Christian I struggle internally with the teachings of my faith towards any thought of supremacy of the white race. I also know, because I possess common sense and average intelligence, that there is an assault on the white race from just about every front. The different roots of the movement offer an outlet to those like me that will struggle to unlearn what we have had rammed down out throats by even our well-intentioned parents. I have seen even in the week since my re-birth an ability to throw away the Judeo-Christian label I was once so naively proud of. I comment not to have something to say, but to offer that this movement is having a real impact and will continue to grow. If I, who was so sure of my faith and convictions can be convinced, then there is much low-hanging fruit that can be harvested. There are millions of disenfranchised Republicans and Conservatives waiting to be led somewhere. The plan looks sound to me.

Blogger Salt September 10, 2016 1:01 PM  

Markku wrote:If Hitler hadn't forced the remaining Christendom's hand by overreach, USA would probably never have joined the war,

Oh yes we would. Roosevelt wanted in badly.

Blogger Markku September 10, 2016 1:04 PM  

He might have, but I doubt he could have managed to whip up the political will to do so, if he wasn't able to paint it as a credible threat to the people. If Hitler had settled for more lebensraum, shutting and controlling the borders, and taking the Jews to the nation's various borders and said "have fun, and if you try to turn back we'll shoot", I'm pretty sure Roosevelt would have huffed and puffed, but managed to do nothing.

Anonymous Darth Dharmakīrti September 10, 2016 1:05 PM  

@rcocean

If that's what you think the Benedict Option is, you should read more. You can disagree that it's a worthwhile project, but it is not simply running and hiding. Quite the opposite.

The real question is what happens if/when there's a shooting war with literal bullets, but as I understand it the BenOp is not pacifist.

Blogger Markku September 10, 2016 1:07 PM  

The other nations refused to accept the Jews, yes, but what could they have done about it, with truckloads of them being brought to the border? Shoot or gas the Jews themselves?

Hitler had an excellent hand, but he overplayed it, and paid for it with his life.

Blogger Markku September 10, 2016 1:13 PM  

The point is not that Hitler did it, though, but that I understand so perfectly well WHY he did it. Anyone in his position, who didn't understand Christians, might have made the same choice. It is in no way particular to Hitler. I understand full well, why he thought his Positive Christianity stunt would have worked.

Blogger Salt September 10, 2016 1:16 PM  

Markku wrote:Hitler had an excellent hand, but he overplayed it, and paid for it with his life.

I've always thought Chamberlain to have politely informed Hitler the acknowledgment of his hand. Let's fold and all leave the table intact. Hitler, though, thought he could actually draw to the inside straight.

Blogger Salt September 10, 2016 1:23 PM  

Markku, question for you. Do you think it's possible for Churchianity to exist as any force without the left in power?

Blogger Markku September 10, 2016 1:27 PM  

I absolutely do. It will just take on a different form. The symptoms will be different. What is at the heart of Churchianity is enjoying the trappings of Christianity, without really believing that it is relevant to what you should be doing right this day. You don't believe it strongly enough for it to cause you to do what you don't want to do.

Right now, that is resisting the progressive agenda, and for that reason we see its expressions as celebrating homosexuality and those kinds of things. Take out that agenda, and the phenomenon remains. But its expression will be whatever happens to be the easiest thing to do.

Anonymous Gen. Kong September 10, 2016 1:28 PM  

ZhukovG wrote:@19 rogerhicks I think what we need to do is view a STATE as a tool rather than a goal. If I am a German Nationalist, my goal is to save Germans; not Germany. If I need to save Germany in order to save Germans; so be it. But we must not confuse the tool with the goal.

Likewise those of us who are Americans need to accept that in order to save Americans we may have to let go of our nostalgic attachment to the American Union.


Your point about nationalism is dead on. As Markku noted, Hitler was dealt a very good hand and completely overplayed via megalomania. Nationalism is weakened by imperialism. If Hitler had kept himself to securing the lands of the Germans - expelling the Jews - and refrained from invading other nations a serious blow would have been dealt to the globalist mission. Instead, he ended up destroying Germany to such an extent that they're facing literal extermination now and few are willing even to admit as much (though some seem to be at last waking up to it).

Imperialism is not nationalism, but a stepping-stone to debt-slavery and globalism. The British and French empires were the precursor to today's globalism. Those of Russia and Austria were more constrained by were also beset with problems of nationalist resistance of the peoples ruled over.

Blogger Were-Puppy September 10, 2016 1:50 PM  

@92 Markku
I'd say, Alt-Left is Bernietards.
---
Bernouts is a good moniker

Blogger Salt September 10, 2016 1:50 PM  

Markku wrote:Take out that agenda, and the phenomenon remains.

Phenomenon has always been there; Paul's letters to the Churches. Take away their power, and with that their agenda, and what do you have? So, in a sense one might wonder of they have the stomach for the fight it would require of them?

"But its expression will be whatever happens to be the easiest thing to do."

Back into the closet. Easiest. Safest.

Blogger ManofGondor September 10, 2016 2:13 PM  

I can see no threat to the Alt-right from Christians. I have read many great points here on this topic both supporting this position and arguing against it. As a Christian I have no inner conflict fighting alongside pagans and atheists for the same goal- the survival of western civ and the white race. Those are the goals here are they not? I would sacrafice my life in defense of either. Most Christians I know would also.

Anonymous Napoleon 12 pdr September 10, 2016 2:18 PM  

@130 Man of Gondor

The Superiority of any individual or group does not invalidate Christianity. But it imposes duties...on both sides. The rich and wise have an obligation to aid their less well endowed neighbors. And the poor and foolish have an obligation to not indulge in envy nor squander the resources provided them.

What is Christianity itself, if not a relationship between the wise and powerful Christ and poor, weak, and foolish humanity?

Blogger ManofGondor September 10, 2016 2:20 PM  

They (my Christian friends) just don't know it yet.

Anonymous Mr. Rational September 10, 2016 2:28 PM  

Bohm wrote:btw, defenders of Western civilisation need to worry about three basic things. In roughly ascending order: energy efficiency, food security and waste disposal.
Efficiency never lit a single light bulb or boiled a single cup of water.  Lovins has been preaching negawatts and hypercars for 40 years and energy consumption keeps going up.

Western civ needs the one thing that scares the pants off the monopolists:  nuclear energy.  They are almost as hysterical about opposing it as they are an immigration cutoff.  They fear it because they can't own it.

Forget drilling and digging.  The USA is sitting on enough energy, in drums and tanks in warehouses, to run the country for centuries.  The Rockefellers and House of Saud know this and will do anything to keep us from using it.  The minute we do, their monopoly is broken and they become nothing.

Markku wrote:I'd say, Alt-Left is Bernietards.
How many of them are going to vote Trump in disgust over Hildawg?  That's going to be one of the most interesting stories to be written after November.

Markku wrote:Christianity is the Stella Polaris, and the rest, including white identity, are a molehill on the ground. There is NOTHING we wouldn't sacrifice, if the alternative is sacrificing Christianity.
Whiteness doesn't require sacrificing Christianity.  But if Christianity requires sacrificing Whiteness, experience shows that the West falls.  The problem is going to be convincing White Christians that their church needs to be a White church and not a universal one.  Let the Blacks, etc. have national churches in their own nations.  (Edit:  looks like @124 and @125 agree with this interpretation.)

The Mormons have gone full cuck.

if you're not a Christian, you would be absolutely BAFFLED at how content they are if you just give them ONE thing: Not getting in the way of living out their religion.
How is forbidding them from putting anti-factual dogma in science textbooks and letting people use what they call "abortifacients" even if they get the vapors getting in their way of anything?  Because that's what I've been fighting.

Blogger ManofGondor September 10, 2016 2:28 PM  

Understood and agreed. But most of us have had a lifetime of political correctness spewed at us even from our pulpits and altars. It is going to take some time to shed that baggage.

Blogger Markku September 10, 2016 2:33 PM  

Abortion is admittedly the one issue that doesn't fit the principle, because the sides disagree about whether it is murder or not. Obviously, nobody will want to tolerate anything that they in fact think is murder, but here the sides disagree about the nature of the act. And that is the sort of disagreement where no compromise can be found. So, yes, that will be a huge conflict.

Blogger Cinco September 10, 2016 3:08 PM  

But what I mean is that the kind of person who I call a "Christian" in this context, holds a certain set of truth-claims to be true, based on the Bible. And the important thing to understand is that he will sacrifice his life, your life, and everybody's life, before sacrificing them.

I love you guys, no homo.

Blogger Zeroh Tollrants September 10, 2016 3:16 PM  

When I opened my Twitter acct in 2007, I used my real name, and in the bio area wrote only, "Have gun, will shoot," as a play on the old "Have gun, will travel."
It is exactly the same today. I like to think it says all I needed to say & I fully endorse your shorthand summation above. I'm not an autiste or detail person, but, I do really appreciate them for their ability to and desire to sift thru minutiae. The problem to me seems to be that it tends to bog them down in the weeds. GamerGate fascinated me from Day 1. I spent many yrs in GOP politics, gave up because of their ineffectual stances. I must have read every Gawker, reddit, Chan, Kotaku, Twitter posted, the first few weeks, and I don't give a damn about vidya games. It taught me that the very people needed to fight the political battles were all playing games, and they were exactly the WRONG ppl to push, because they weren't particularly fond of it. I've been hooked, ever since.

Blogger Markku September 10, 2016 3:23 PM  

I understand exactly why the non-Christians think abortion is the best thing since sliced bread, since blacks are killing their kids in so much greater number than whites. Because it's a different thing that the two sides think gives value to a human life. From the Christian presuppositions, a Christian cannot in good conscience support a government that looks the other way when a mother murders her child. So, there has to be some other solution than allowing abortion in our own country.

But from the other side, it's the simplest thing and they are ALREADY doing it. So, I understand the frustration.

Anonymous CitizenOutkast September 10, 2016 3:26 PM  

On another site, I've been debating with conservatives the alt-right ideas. The entire "white people only" aspect for holding onto Western civilization sends them into conniptions. They spout out about immigrants here that love America, assimilate, and how wanting a white America is supremacy. The indoctrination runs deep.

Now, if I have this right, alt-white would want an entirely pure white America? Am I getting this correctly? And alt-west would what? What percentage of even "America-loving non-white immigrants" would be "acceptable?" Isn't just letting a few in, where they can breed and become a bigger nuisance an issue the alt-west is concerned about? What limits would an alt-west viewpoint consider important?

Anonymous CatholicOne September 10, 2016 3:29 PM  

The problem with shoot Left is that the neo-pagan, anti-Catholic portion of the alt-White see all Christians to the Left of them and start shooting. I will not attack, but I will defend.

Blogger bob k. mando September 10, 2016 3:38 PM  

150. Markku September 10, 2016 3:23 PM
So, there has to be some other solution than allowing abortion in our own country.



take a multiple felon / career offender.

amortize how many more years / expense he is expected to be imprisoned ( current sentence + projected future sentencing given past behavior ).

divide expense into thirds.

offer 1/3 to the incarceree, 1/3 to the nation which will accept him, government saves 1/3. incarceree gets foreign national citizenship, US citizenship is revoked. if he's ever found in the US again, he's subject to summary execution.

in death / life imprisonment cases, receiving country gets 1/2 projected future imprisonment + court costs. felon gets nothing except commutation of death sentence.

you want 50 acres and a mule? go get them in Liberia.

Blogger rcocean September 10, 2016 4:36 PM  

"If that's what you think the Benedict Option is, you should read more. You can disagree that it's a worthwhile project, but it is not simply running and hiding. Quite the opposite."

The B.O. is so fuzzy and nebulous that even Rod in his FAQ can't adequately answer the objection that its 'running away from the world'. He just says it isn't but doesn't say why. What the B.O. is NOT is a call for whites or even Christians to fight for their rights in the public square. No we're supposed to retreat to our Christian enclaves and "carve out a space" just like the Monks did. I'm sure the liberals LOVE the B.O.

Anonymous Mr. Rational September 10, 2016 4:39 PM  

@153 You're not counting the cost of the felon's future crimes and other social burdens if they're released into the USA.  That puts almost all juvenile NAM criminals well on the deficit side of the ledger, even if they're well under 18, even if you ignore the general subsidy that Whites give other racial groups in the USA.

We should not only be making them leave.  We should be making their whole family leave with them, by making their benefits payable only in Africa or wherever.  Once there and denaturalized, their children aren't citizens and we don't have to care what they do.

Would the ghetto culture clean up its act if crime was a one-way ticket out of the USA for the baby mama and her entire brood?  I suspect not, so ghettos would empty out fairly rapidly and de-criminalize even more rapidly as the worst elements left first.

Blogger rcocean September 10, 2016 4:40 PM  

I see people are talking about the same old tired issue - Abortion. I think most pro-life are just discouraged. If it really is murder, then why isn't the Pope doing something about Catholic Pols who support it? Instead, he seems more concerned about open borders. And the same is true of the Prod Churches.

Anonymous Ezekiel Cassandros September 10, 2016 6:59 PM  

Markku wrote:And that is what will bring the eventual conflict, because the Alt-Whites aren't even capable of understanding what Christianity is to us, because they themselves are just LARPing religion. We aren't.

There are also those of the Alt-White who consider the universal nature of Christianity to be indistinguishable from Jewish globalism. That's why some are trying to bring back Asatru; it's a white religion specifically.

"The Whites are for The Whites," essentially. It won't help with internicene peace.

Anonymous Gen. Kong September 10, 2016 7:03 PM  

Markku wrote:I understand exactly why the non-Christians think abortion is the best thing since sliced bread, since blacks are killing their kids in so much greater number than whites. Because it's a different thing that the two sides think gives value to a human life. From the Christian presuppositions, a Christian cannot in good conscience support a government that looks the other way when a mother murders her child. So, there has to be some other solution than allowing abortion in our own country.

But from the other side, it's the simplest thing and they are ALREADY doing it. So, I understand the frustration.


The Neo-Pagans one encounters over at Spencer's place aren't so much pro-abortion as they have little problem with all the dindus and aztecs who take advantage of its ready availability. Ditto for the coal-burners, whose offspring often end up being the very worst type of negro supremacist. (Read about the Zebra killers in San Francisco for a typical example).

As for any opposition to the practice by that which refers to itself as Christianity: It's been a joke - just like the Repuke party they voted into office for decades running. First of all, the Churchians and Judeo-Christians likely have been aware of (((who)))) owns the abortion mills and profits from the sale of all the body parts. As Cambria Will Not Yield noted, if there were any serious opposition to the practice by Christians - if they really believed it to be murder - there would be hundreds of dead abortionists and workers and scores of "clinics" burned. Instead, there have been isolated events with no more than 10 abortionists dead over 4 decades. This kind of underscores a larger point: Most of that refers to itself as "Christianity" in the west is, in fact, Churchianity. To go back to VD's interesting about about the Spanish forces' failure to stop the French advance in the Peninsular War, Churchians are the horses and mules of the enemy army - hauling the big guns to destroy what's left of the west. At best, Francis the talking donkey in Rome is the worst of them. False prophet is probably closer to the mark. (Not that Churchian Prots are in any position to point fingers, with folks like "Apostle" Copeland anointing Cruzman-Sachs as King of the Banana).

Blogger VD September 10, 2016 7:11 PM  

There are also those of the Alt-White who consider the universal nature of Christianity to be indistinguishable from Jewish globalism.

I'm not terribly concerned about the historically and theologically illiterate, much less those who want to go back to running around naked in winter.

Anonymous Kudos The Lexecutioner September 10, 2016 7:23 PM  

"Shut up and shoot Left."

Since I appear to have birthed the initial meme (whereupon it was properly edited to its current form by the Supreme Dark Lord, PBUH), here's my 2 cents:

Right now the shots are verbal. If Trump is defeated and the decline of white, Western civilization is not arrested, they are unlikely to remain that way.

If you think otherwise, ask a resident of Sarajevo who attended the 1984 Winter Olympics whether he would have foreseen himself less than a decade later picking through the rubble of his city while under mortar fire searching for scraps of food.

Things never change. Until they do. (See, e.g., the Ceausescus & Romania, ca. 12/21/89).

I too have friends who are to the left of me politicaly. It is at their feet that I lay the ruination of our world.

Blogger Leo Littlebook in Shenzhen September 10, 2016 7:33 PM  

Doubling down with a dishonest shift from altering Christianity to generic overreach. Your Hitler example disproved your point so then you conflated Christianity with the Russo American alliance. biblical martyrdom does not include bluster.

Blogger ZhukovG September 10, 2016 7:47 PM  

Markku, with respect, I think you are being a bit pessimistic regarding the Alt-West/Alt-White relationship. The hoped for victory of the Alt-Right will, I believe, satisfy most members of all factions.

Concerning well meaning Leftists. I have a few loved ones who fall into this category. It will sadden me greatly when I sign their deportation order. I will probably keep the pen in honor of their memory.

Blogger tublecane September 10, 2016 7:48 PM  

I think your claim that Gamergate was the most successful anti!SJW, anti-media action of the entire culture war to be ridiculously overblown. Unless you're defining SJW sufficiently narrowly to exclude bigger movements. What about the gun rights, or, more specifically, the conceal-carry movement? They helped to knock the sitting governor out of his primary for the first time in Missouri history. What did Gamergate do? Lose a few "journalists" their jobs?

This doesn't much affect your main thrust, though, because the conceal-carry won much the same way. Outside the mainstream media, outside Conservatism, Inc., and outside the notice of traditionally responsible groups.

Blogger tublecane September 10, 2016 8:04 PM  

There are similarities between Gamergate and the gun rights movement, now that I think of it. Both featured genuine, organic, non-media-created subgroups: gun culture and gaming culture. The alt-right is going to have to tap into something like that.

Blogger VD September 10, 2016 8:17 PM  

Unless you're defining SJW sufficiently narrowly to exclude bigger movements. What about the gun rights, or, more specifically, the conceal-carry movement?

The antigun movement is not SJWs, although SJWs support it.

Blogger tublecane September 10, 2016 8:48 PM  

@165-Okay, but the gun movement is anti-media and part of the culture war, right?

Anonymous Gen. Kong September 10, 2016 10:07 PM  

Gun rights folks are much more likely to be Alt-right or at least fellow travelers than others are. Duterte, while certainly not white, might even be a fellow traveler.

Blogger tz September 10, 2016 11:08 PM  

@130 As someone new to the movement I offer this: As a life-long devout Christian I struggle internally with the teachings of my faith towards any thought of supremacy of the white race.

Christ is supreme. That the white race (Japheth? dwell in the tents thereof) obeys Christ the King the best, it ought to be supreme.

The Churchians want everyone to get to Heaven either without Christ or without obeying his commandments.

Blogger tz September 10, 2016 11:14 PM  

@126 - the Odinites and atheists are usually attacking the Churchians, thinking they are rejecting the Christians.

Blogger ManofGondor September 10, 2016 11:32 PM  

They (my Christian friends) just don't know it yet.

Blogger Thordaddy September 10, 2016 11:39 PM  

Alt-white and alt-rite will converge on wS.

Blogger tublecane September 10, 2016 11:53 PM  

@130-You don't have to believe in white supremacy to be part of the movement. Vox doesn't. I don't. Western European culture is the finest culture in the world, in my opinion, but it has its downsides. Civilizations elsewhere have their own strengths.

What white identity politics, including white nationalism, ought to be about is simply securing what is ours. We created this, it belongs to us. You can have that, but this is ours. If that's too vague, sorry, but I'm trying to be as basic as possible.

I'm not a white supremacist nor a white nationalist, for that matter. My mind is attached to groups more particular than white people. I hate a lot of white people. But since the others do insist on sticking together, so must we. They've set the game, and now we have to play and win.

Blogger tublecane September 11, 2016 2:28 AM  

@173-"If one is anti-egalitarian, one is, AT LEAST, a (s)upremacist."

Yes, using the term in its broadest meaning.

"if one is not deracinated then one is, at minimum, a white (s)upremacist."

Wrong. You don't have to believe your race is supreme for it to have its own place. It will rule where it is, over whoever else happens to be there. But to defend such a system doesn't make you a supremacist. Or else almost all of humanity everywhere for all time has been supremacist. Which is stretching the term beyond its limits.

Blogger Markku September 11, 2016 2:40 AM  

Leo Littlebook in Shenzhen wrote:Doubling down with a dishonest shift from altering Christianity to generic overreach. Your Hitler example disproved your point so then you conflated Christianity with the Russo American alliance. biblical martyrdom does not include bluster.

The response of an individual Christian to the immediate threat is, eventually, martyrdom. Unless he has a gun. But when other approaches are exhausted, it IS indeed that.

But USA joining the war is what eventually is going to happen among states that belong to Christendom. Some other nation's people will perceive an existential threat once they see the other making true Christianity illegal. And then, it will go to war. For Hitler, where the tide really changed was the Aryan Paragraph. That's when people like Dietrich Bonhöffer started opposing Hitler in earnest. And that had a big effect in the will to go to war in USA at the grassroots. And, here we indeed see the dynamic between the individual and the state, because Bonhöffer was executed for it.

Blogger SciVo September 11, 2016 2:49 AM  

@ Desillusionerad: Though i suppose the latter group has probably been pushed out into the right wing already.

Some, not all. As a centrist swing voter (because my main concerns were poorly served by both parties), I was easily pushed right again by aversion to SJWs. But I have friends that are lifelong left-libertarians (even though that quadrant is impossible in practice).

I even convinced one to vote for Trump. So I'm in a good position to help spur the development of an amenable Alt-Left. Any tips?

Blogger Markku September 11, 2016 2:51 AM  

THAT'S why the globalists want globalism and the end to nations, because they understand the dynamic. As long as there are nations, there's ALWAYS some other nation that makes the calculation that the rationale for you oppressing the one, is the same rationale for oppressing YOU later, once they're done with it.

Blogger Markku September 11, 2016 3:04 AM  

My guess is that you, Leo, don't have enough personal connections to real Christians to understand the full range of the dynamic. First of all, you don't realize just HOW many guns the Christians in the American south have, and how much they are waiting to start shooting once someone comes at them. I know these guys, and visited a few such homes when I was there. You probably have no idea how everybody right down to the little church lady is carrying at least a 9mm, and how many of the men have a pile of automatic rifles to share, when it comes to that.

Now, on the other hand, here in Europe since individual ownership of guns is made so difficult, the culture is not the same. If someone has a gun and ammo, he's not going to let anyone know. But rather, the culture manifests itself in the MILITARY culture. For example, our grandfathers here in Finland killed quite specifically in the name of God. Christianity was a huge part of the system. Military pastors blessed the soldiers once they went to battle, and absolved them from all sin when they came back. I served my mandatory 6 months in my time too, and there were quite a few Christian field services even though we didn't see combat.

You are looking at an individual in a highly specified circumstance, and extending the principle to the state level. But it doesn't work like that. We are EXTREMELY willing to kill, as long as it all happens in good order and according to rules.

Blogger Markku September 11, 2016 3:10 AM  

Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of him who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval,
4 for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain; he is the servant of God to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer.

When we go to war, we are temporarily made part of that authority, to wipe out the threat, and given the go-ahead to use the "sword" (which means, to kill). And don't imagine that this is just my personal theory. This is the military theology. This is why the military pastors are blessing our killing.

Blogger Markku September 11, 2016 3:16 AM  

In our wars, the soldiers had the slogan "Home, religion and Fatherland!" ("Koti, uskonto ja isänmaa!"). It was the list of three things, for which a Christian must kill.

Blogger Markku September 11, 2016 3:19 AM  

I am constantly amused by how in the '90s, the atheists were always complaining how eager we Christians are to kill (for example, that particular slogan was parodied in quite a few pacifist protest songs). And NOW, it is the opposite complaint. Fucking decide already.

Blogger Markku September 11, 2016 3:24 AM  

This photo seems to have caused quite a bit of amusement in the USA. And I'm like, do you even Christian, bro? WHAT are you using your chaplains for?! You are probably using them wrong.

Blogger SciVo September 11, 2016 3:24 AM  

@ tublecane:

Heh. Saw a guy at the bar today with a Black Rifles Matter shirt. Top kek.

Blogger Markku September 11, 2016 3:48 AM  

I wish an atheist could, once in his life, peek into the interpersonal network of real, old-time Christians that exists quite apart from denominational lines. Where the people know each other, and know who's solid. So that they could see that it is the complete opposite of the sissy religion they imagine from pictures and the media.

Blogger VD September 11, 2016 4:04 AM  

If one is anti-egalitarian, one is, AT LEAST, a (s)upremacist.

You're banned for lying AGAIN, Thordaddy. Your idiotic argument has been repeatedly disproven and yet you continue to present it as fact.

Blogger Leo Littlebook in Shenzhen September 11, 2016 4:01 PM  

But USA joining the war is what eventually is going to happen among states that belong to Christendom. Some other nation's people will perceive an existential threat once they see the other making true Christianity illegal. And then, it will go to war.

So you're threatening the Neo-Nazis with another globocop Russo-American Hellstorm if they suppress (((Churchianity))) with a state church?

That will teach them to regard Christians as international fifth columnists like the Jews, Muslims and Communists.

For Hitler, where the tide really changed was the Aryan Paragraph. That's when people like Dietrich Bonhöffer started opposing Hitler in earnest. And that had a big effect in the will to go to war in USA at the grassroots. And, here we indeed see the dynamic between the individual and the state, because Bonhöffer was executed for it.

I had no idea he killed Churchians as well as Jews. Tell me more about this wonderful fellow.

My guess is that you, Leo,

I am a second generation Biblicist, a Texan, and a 2nd Amendment activist. Is the Finnish webbed foot an adaptation to the snowy environment?

Blogger EscapeVelocity September 11, 2016 6:24 PM  

Im more of an Alt West type. I think people called Lawrence Auster more of a European Christian Tradtioinalist. Im friendly with the Ethno-Nationalists and the Men's Rights people.

We stand together or most assuredly, we will hang separately. - Benjamin Franklin

Had a bit of a disagreement where I was taking an assimilation of Latinos into the White Anglo European camp, to restore the nation going forward...after mass indescriminate immigration is shut down with the Alt-White guys. We left mostly friendly, largely agree, but agree to disagree on this issue terms. That's easy to do when neither has power at this point.

Blogger Ponce Du Lion September 12, 2016 12:32 AM  

Vox I think you're talking about white supremacists and imperialists not white nationalists. WN is anti-Israel and anti-Zionism as long as they are anti-WN. I think it's fair, and distinct from nationalism only for us, which is what (((they promote))) using us and our nations. Said that I see the differentiation unnecessary.

Blogger Ponce Du Lion September 12, 2016 12:35 AM  

The only supremacists are the left, just that they are "loser supremacists"

Blogger Ponce Du Lion September 12, 2016 12:40 AM  

Tax funding for Israel, key to Zionists, is also anti-white, because take work from one person to give it to another is inherently against that person.

Blogger rogerhicks September 12, 2016 1:40 AM  

@ #187 Ponce Du Lion

"loser supremacists"

I think "moral supremacists" is a more accurate description, which also accounts for the immense power they wield.

Society has always been ruled by moral supremacists. Their supremacism used to be based on a religious ideology, backed up by the Word of God, while now it is based on a racial ideology, post-racial multiculturalism, which, not coincidentally, is the exact but equally extreme and insane opposite of Nazi racial ideology.

Blogger Markku September 12, 2016 8:48 AM  

Leo Littlebook in Shenzhen wrote:So you're threatening the Neo-Nazis with another globocop Russo-American Hellstorm if they suppress (((Churchianity))) with a state church?


Christianity, but yes.

Blogger Markku September 12, 2016 8:56 AM  

But that's not the most likely situation to happen. That is assuming that Alt-White has already won the battle for Alt-Right, and I don't think they will. Since both sides are involved in the war already, I don't think Alt-White will even come out on top for that question to be relevant. I think we'll remove the threat as part of the course of the war, before it comes to a point where a similar figure could subjugate us, and then some other Christian nation to come to our help.

Blogger Nathan September 12, 2016 12:46 PM  

rogerhicks #110... (Vox and others to),

You said: "Unfortunately, Britain was never a genuine nation, but always just a mercenary "patron state" deceitfully posing as a nation, in order to legitimise itself, its ruling elites and the immense power they wield and abuse. The same applies to America and every other so-called "nation state", of course."

This connects with a conversation I was having with a friend the other day. Wondering if you might take a look at the conversation and tell me what my friend is missing. You to Vox, since it deals with the extent to which melting pot approaches/assimilation are possible - and even potentially beneficial (I know you don't agree with rogerhick's comment). I'll admit I'm out of my league when it comes to the historical knowledge.

I had said: "In truth, ethnic diversity is often not a strength and conducive to a society’s flourishing."

He responded by saying this:

"Sometimes that's true. Sometimes it isn't. Depends what you mean by ethnic diversity. Do you mean the situation with French Canadians? Yes, I agree that has held Canada back. Do you mean the ethnic diversity that helped give rise to Great Britain? I think that is a strong counter example. Great Britain decided to stop being great several generations ago. Before that they gave the world many of the most significant Enlightenment thinkers, the Industrial Revolution, traditions of political and economic freedom, and a culture that has improved every part of the world touched by the British Empire. When most people in America speak of Western Civilization to a very large degree they are really speaking about British Civilization. When we speak of the Enlightenment we largely mean the Scottish Enlightenment and not so much the continental version.

Great Britain was itself a multi-ethnic country. The British people were something new produced through the mixing of various Celtic and similar tribes, Vikings and other Nordic peoples, and folks we would today think of as French and German. Think about where the term "Anglo-Saxon" comes from. think about where the English language itself comes from. Britain was the melting pot before the U.S. Did that mixing and ethnic diversity often cause them problems? Yes. And the need to emphasize a unifying language and culture, the rule of law and individual rights, was very well understood by the Founders through the lessons British history had taught them...."

I also said to him: "There are, in fact, many advantages of having a more ethnically homogenous society."

The reply:

"The most homogeneous societies tend to see great initial success and then become stagnant. For one thing, they seem to be even more vulnerable to the siren song of socialism. Japan is incredibly homogeneous and has stalled out. Remember in the 80s when the Japanese were going to own the U.S. and run the world? Not so much. Look to Scandinavia. Being homogenous and very cliquish helped contribute to the stalling out of Scandianvian civilization after the age of the Vikings. The alleged success of Scandinavian socialism is largely a myth (unfortunately a popular one that stubbornly persists). But the success of Scandinavians in America is very real. Many interesting lessons to be learned from exploring this topic. This article touches on a few: https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-08-16/denmark-s-nice-yes-but-danes-live-better-in-u-s "

Thoughts? Vox? Others? Is Britain's situation a rare example of a new ethnicity really being created - and a very good one at that? (i.e. one that can overcome the socialist gravity? - perhaps also largely in part because of Christianity being in the mix as well?)

-Nathan



Blogger Leo Littlebook in Shenzhen September 12, 2016 3:45 PM  

But that's not the most likely situation to happen.

If the US "rescues" Europe again, it will be a WWIII Great Depression 2.0 Revelations thing. Russia's learned her lesson, and China's too far away.

Purge-fueled racist nationalism is what will win, which only roughly approximates "Alt-White" in the US prison gang fight. The Overton Window does not stop on Milo Yiannopoulis.

"Christians" will believe whatever the state establishment of religion tells them, just like they do now. Because they like having a minister to tell them who to kill.

Biblicists and fundies are no longer numerous or cohesive enough to do anything but get themselves purged. Thanks for volunteering us, by the way. After all, Jesus did say that it was morally imperative to militarily rebel against Roman theological oppression regardless of the numerical odds, right?

Blogger Markku September 12, 2016 3:58 PM  

That is your calculation. Our calculation is that we can purge you. But, since our common enemy is stronger than either of us, it currently makes sense for both to shoot in the same direction. But it would be delusional to think we won't eventually be at war with each other.

Blogger Markku September 12, 2016 4:01 PM  

On one hand, it would be really easy to not go to war. It would only require you not to touch the religion issue. But it's too tempting for you, and you will. Hence, war.

Blogger Markku September 12, 2016 4:05 PM  

For example, who has the highest body count in recent times in this war. Breivik. And who did he side with? That's right, Christians. I have the manifesto on my hard drive. He is explicit about it.

Blogger Leo Littlebook in Shenzhen September 13, 2016 12:58 AM  

I don't know why you're using "you". Obviously I want freedom to practice Biblicist religion, which is why I'm calling out your counterproductive threats against the winning team. The people Biblicists should be threatening with death are the churchians and CINOs whose race treason threatens to send real Christians to the gulag.

The idea that racism will not return to its historical norm, and go even further driven by PC repression rebound, HBD, and ethnic cleansing escalation, is pollyannish. Your underlying assumption that the West is more Christian or fundy or Biblicist now than it was in 1940 is mad. Your implied logic of naively extrapolating a fight over internet intellectual adjectives into meatspace political power is stupid.

> For example, who has the highest body count in recent times in this war. Breivik. And who did he side with? That's right, Christians. I have the manifesto on my hard drive. He is explicit about it.

Wow, that is an even more brilliant example than Hitler and Bonhoeffer. Breivik is an ODINIST. If you think he gives a damn about future Biblicist theological objections to some Norwegian establishment of a racist church militant, you are nuts. He would probably volunteer to edit the Bible himself.

The logic in this video about "who is a true Muslim" exposes the dishonest shifting definitions of "Christian" behind your bluster.

Incidentally, Google auto-suggest for "was Breivik" = "right".

Blogger Markku September 13, 2016 4:36 AM  

Breivik is an ODINIST.

No, he is not. I bet you haven't even read the manifesto. I have.

Blogger Markku September 13, 2016 4:39 AM  

The idea that racism will not return to its historical norm

What? Of course I want racism. The more the better. But the Aryan Paragraph crossed a line that cannot be crossed. And I think your side will try to do it again.

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