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Saturday, September 10, 2016

"Judeo-Christian" is antisemitic

"Judeo-Christian is not merely anti-Christian propaganda, but as one rabbi points out, it is also antisemitic:
The Constitution entitles you to your opinions and religious beliefs and even affords you the right to express those convictions in your pursuit of public office. But as a Jew and a rabbi, I am writing to ask you to please leave me, Judaism and my people out of your rhetoric. Don’t use “Judeo-Christian” to try to appropriate my religion and my people’s history to advance your agenda.

I can appreciate that Jews and Christians share many similar values and beliefs, just as I recognize that many of the values I learn from my tradition are also shared by many other religions. But while our respective religions have many things in common, we also diverge in significant ways. You and I read the same Bible very differently and draw sometimes contradictory conclusions from it. I honor those differences and I affirm that Jews and Christians (as well as Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, atheists and many others) can come together to exchange ideas and live at peace with one another. But your particular brand of Christianity bears little resemblance to the Judaism I practice, and when you use the term “Judeo-Christian” to really mean “Christian,” you erase the distinctions between our faiths — and you essentially erase Jews....

When you use the term “Judeo-Christian,” you give your particular brand of Christian ideology a veneer of universalism it does not merit. It is misleading to suggest that your ideas are part of a “Judeo-Christian tradition.” The term “Judeo-Christian” was originally coined in the 1930s by liberal Christians and Jews who sought to encourage ecumenical relations between those two faiths for the purpose of fighting the growing racism, xenophobia and nativism of that time. But in the 1950s the term was adopted by political conservatives who used the phrase “Judeo-Christian values” as a cudgel in the fight against fellow Americans they accused of being “Godless communists.” And since the 1970s the call for a return to so-called “Judeo-Christian values” has been used by the Christian right as code language to their base for a particular brand of conservative policies that are anything but inclusive.
Perhaps those Christians who are not even remotely concerned about endorsing an anti-Christian term will think twice about it now that they understand it is also antisemitic and deplored by Jews.

This is not an isolated example. The Jewish Press is even more straightforward in correctly rejecting the legitimacy of the term:
Let’s be clear: Far from “sharing” one tradition, Orthodox Jews are prohibited from marrying Christians, setting foot inside a Christian church—and we can’t even drink from an open bottle of kosher wine that has been used by a Christian. We reject the Christian idea of salvation, we abhor Christian divine teachings on every subject, and we are repulsed and outraged by incessant attempts by Christian missionaries to bring us into their fold.

It is particularly disturbing when Klinghoffer makes statements which reveal his complete assumption of elements of New Testament Pauline ideology, for instance, the requirement that wives submit to their husband’s authority. There is no mandate on precisely how a woman should behave with her husband—Jews expect the happy couple to work it out for themselves. Also, while divorce may be a tragedy, and God cries, it is in no way banned—in Judaism, that is. The story in Christianity, and Klinghoffer’s “Judeo-Christian Biblical America,” is different.

Incidentally, we have more in common with Muslims than we do with Christians; Jewish law permits Jews to enter a mosque… but not a church....

Jews and Christians differ on every single fundamental principle—even on the meaning of core Scriptural texts. More crucially, Christians rely on the Old Testament for legal delineation; whereas Jews rely solely upon our rabbinic tradition. We never, ever turn to our Bible for legal guidance, only to our rabbinic literature. To suggest that our Sages had anything at all in common with the likes of Jerry Falwell, Jimmy Carter or Pat Robertson is a slap in the face of 2500 years of scholarship.

“Judeo-Christian” is as valid a concept as happy-joylessness, or tall dwarves. Klinghoffer’s yearnings for this repugnant “ideal” is a deviant phenomenon without a trace of commonality in traditional Jewish thought, ancient or modern.
Considering that it is almost solely Christian Zionists in the US who proudly utilize the term, I tend to doubt there are many rhetorical ploys more powerful than accusing anyone who uses the term "Judeo-Christian values" of antisemitism.

I also think the term "Judeo-Christian values" is obviously racist, as if we are to apply the idiotic logic used to defend it, the more accurate term to describe the values upon which the United States was founded is "African-Christian values", since everyone who is a United States citizen was, until very recently, believed to have been descended from an African ancestor and it is terribly racist to suggest otherwise, regardless of what the latest science might say.

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127 Comments:

Blogger Lazarus September 10, 2016 8:06 AM  

I honor those differences and I affirm that Jews and Christians (as well as Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, atheists and many others) can come together to exchange ideas and live at peace with one another.

NOT

Blogger Markku September 10, 2016 8:11 AM  

YES! Finally we are acknowledging this. The idea of common ground between Christianity and Judaism was always patent insanity. I've been waiting for this for over a decade. I was always utterly sickened to hear that crap in Churches.

Blogger Minecraft Chuck September 10, 2016 8:11 AM  

Hey, come on now, a Muslim can too live at peace with others. If, you know, he doesn't actually believe in Islam or read the Koran. Or if he is weak, and secretly plotting what to do when he becomes strong.

Blogger Josh (the gayest thing here) September 10, 2016 8:17 AM  

This sounds like a girl telling her beta orbiter that they should just really be friends because they have so much in common and such a great friendship.

Anonymous Steve September 10, 2016 8:21 AM  

In my experience it's a term almost, but not exclusively, used by the Quixotic Right in all its various fatuous flavours.

Almost as if they're afraid of simply stating "Christian values" and hope to use Jews as a rhetorical shield. Though with the Christian Zionists I also get the feeling they think inside every Israeli there's an American Evangelical Protestant just waiting to get invited to the Megachurch.

I've seen Jeff Goldstein (who is not, by the way, Jewish) appeal to "Judeo-Christian values" in defence of his idea that anybody from anywhere can be an American and muh constitution is all that matters. If you were being uncharitable I suppose you could abbreviate it to cuck.txt

Anonymous Steve September 10, 2016 8:23 AM  

Actual Judeo-Christian values:

* The Ten Commandments.

Blogger Krul September 10, 2016 8:24 AM  

The problem is that American Protestants get their idea of Jews from movies like The Ten Commandments instead of reality. No, the Jews are not handsome proto-American freedom fighters, they're not going to have "come to Jesus" moment any time soon, and their country is not the harbinger of the Rapture, so please stop obsessing over them.

Anonymous Steve September 10, 2016 8:28 AM  

Josh (the gayest thing here) - Zackly.

The Christian Zionists give off a creepy Elliot Rodger vibe when it comes to Israel.

Israel is a great little country and I'd recommend anybody visit if they get a chance. But it's not what the ChriZis seem to think it is, i.e. some sort of mini-USA with extra holy goodness.

It's basically a European-style secular social democracy with a large religious minority.

Blogger Krul September 10, 2016 8:29 AM  

Steve wrote:Though with the Christian Zionists I also get the feeling they think inside every Israeli there's an American Evangelical Protestant just waiting to get invited to the Megachurch.

Exactly. American Evangelicals tend to have an almost condescending view of Jews. It's like they're expecting the Jews to wake up any moment and say, "Wait a minute... it all makes sense now! Jesus is the Messiah!" and then we all eat barbecue in the fellowship hall. It ain't gonna happen.

Anonymous Steve September 10, 2016 8:37 AM  

Krul - Yarp. And that's at the sane end of the Christian Zionist spectrum.

At the batshit end they think the Jews are going to herald the End Times so the ChriZis can all be Raptured up to Heaven through the sunroofs of their cars, or something.

Blogger Whisker biscuit September 10, 2016 8:43 AM  

As much as I admire David Berlinski and his writing, he too uses "Judeo-Christian" tag line.

Anonymous Cyclone Bob September 10, 2016 8:45 AM  

I like it:


When you use the term “African-American,” you give your particular brand of American ideology a veneer of universalism it does not merit.

When you use the term “Mexican-American,” you give your particular brand of American ideology a veneer of universalism it does not merit.

When you use the term “Asian-American,” you give your particular brand of American ideology a veneer of universalism it does not merit.


Thanks, (((rabbi))).

Blogger Mountain Man September 10, 2016 8:46 AM  

If you were Jewish and become a Christian - to the Tribe - you might as well have just died.
They're hatred for Christianity is stronger than for the Moslems.

Blogger James Jones September 10, 2016 8:51 AM  

I used to use the term when I was ignorant. Thanks for setting me right.

Blogger Mountain Man September 10, 2016 8:51 AM  

@3
I just finished reading a book on Islam and Terrorism. It was written by an Egyptian who converted to Christianity.
He made the point that pretty much anything is acceptable ( in fact encouraged) in the Moslem faith - so long as it furthers the goal of worldwide Moslem dominion. This includes but is not limited to : lying, cheating, stealing pretenses of peace to build trust and scheme...etc...
Its a faith that is totally incompatible in a high trust society like you find in the West.

Blogger S1AL September 10, 2016 8:52 AM  

Jews are offended. News at 11.

Something about gift horses and biting the hand that feeds you.

Blogger J Melcher September 10, 2016 8:56 AM  

I consider the term "African-Christian Values" rather meaningful and a useful distinction from "mainline" (churchian?) values -- at least in context of a developing schism among the Episcopal/Anglican communion and protests of various strongly-traditional African congregations against the historical leadership, and modern teachings of the Archbishop of Canterbury.

http://www.christiantoday.com/article/african.anglicans.will.never.accept.gay.marriage.vows.senior.church.leader/93332.htm

Anonymous Rum Raisin September 10, 2016 8:56 AM  

For the first time since this discussion of "Judeo-Christian" started, I'm angry. We're really that abhorrent and repulsive? Fine. Live and let live, I say, but let Israel spend its own money and materiel to defend itself against the nations with whom it has so much more in common.

Blogger VD September 10, 2016 9:00 AM  

For the first time since this discussion of "Judeo-Christian" started, I'm angry.

NAJALT in 3... 2...

Anonymous Elipe September 10, 2016 9:06 AM  

I was incredulous when I first heard someone explain that the term "kike" originated in reference to the way that illiterate Jewish immigrants to the USA refused to sign their immigration forms with a X - it looked too much like a cross - so they signed with a circle instead, and the Hebrew word for "circle" supposedly was "kike".

But this story about it being against Jewish law to enter a church confirms it for me. They really would sign with a circle instead of a X.

Anonymous johnc September 10, 2016 9:07 AM  

meh... might as well go for broke, then:

Only in the Christian religion is salvation found. So if your soul is not living in a state of grace, you have no right to:

1) be in government
2) be in any position of influence (professor, media, etc.)
3) lecture us about anything involving moral behavior; we will prefer our ancestors to your hard-headedness

So we have two religions here: a false one and a true one, and there is only a small point of intersection.

The sooner we get clearer about things the sooner we can clean out this riff-raff.

Blogger Gapeseed September 10, 2016 9:09 AM  

I was one of those people on the right who used the term, and now I won't.

Anonymous OK September 10, 2016 9:18 AM  

Gruenwald could be wrong about blaming the term on political conservatives in the 1950's. The first time I saw it was in a bloviating article by Hugh Hefner in his magazine in the 1960's. Since I assumed that Hef was an atheist or agnostic, it seemed logical that the term was suspect in some way. So to me it will always be a term that was popularized by Hefner for his own purposes (impressing babes and wannabe intellectuals trying to impress babes).

Blogger Verne September 10, 2016 9:24 AM  

You win, you are right. Using the term Judeo-Christian was all about ignorance. Thank you for the education

Anonymous Avalanche September 10, 2016 9:26 AM  

@15 "... pretty much anything is acceptable ( in fact encouraged) in the Moslem faith - so long as it furthers the goal of worldwide Moslem dominion. This includes but is not limited to : lying, cheating, stealing pretenses of peace to build trust and scheme...etc...
Its a faith that is totally incompatible in a high trust society like you find in the West. "

And ooh ooh! LOOK! It's *exactly* the same set of malign acts as the JEWS use to take over and control our White civilizations; they claim it's to protect their tribe... But -- "seeds of the same tree": people of the same book (with addenda, translations, and expansions!)

Blogger Johnny September 10, 2016 9:26 AM  

Among other things Judeo-Christian is an effort to mainstream Judasm among Christians, at least that has been my take. A "Can't we all just get along" doctrine.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan September 10, 2016 9:35 AM  

Political salvation by scam artists

Blogger Rory Porth September 10, 2016 9:39 AM  

Jesus and the Apostles *are* Jews.... Never stopped ....

New Testament...

Anonymous Cyclone Bob September 10, 2016 9:45 AM  

Incidentally, we have more in common with Muslims than we do with Christians

This is telling, and Christians had better be listening. Also, this:

More crucially, Christians rely on the Old Testament for legal delineation; whereas Jews rely solely upon our rabbinic tradition. We never, ever turn to our Bible for legal guidance, only to our rabbinic literature.

So why do they even have ""a Bible"", if they don't intend to follow it? This sounds similar to how jews in the legal trade treat the Constitution: as a document that exists, but is not to be followed or respected.

Blogger Krul September 10, 2016 9:45 AM  

Rory Porth wrote:Jesus and the Apostles *are* Jews

No, the Pharisees were Jews in the modern sense. Jesus is the Christ. The Apostles were Christians.

This is exactly what we're talking about.

Blogger The Deuce September 10, 2016 9:54 AM  

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Blogger The Deuce September 10, 2016 9:54 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger The Deuce September 10, 2016 9:56 AM  

Interesting that Orthodox Jews don't use the Old Testament for legal delineation. I don't think Zionist Christians get just how drastically different modern Judaism is from the 1st century Judaism they read about in the New Testament, much less the Judaism of Moses.

Blogger JRR September 10, 2016 10:01 AM  

The constitution does no0t "entitle" anyone to anything. Rights are granted by God, or if one doesn't believe in God, by the mere happenstance of being human.

Blogger JM September 10, 2016 10:07 AM  

I have heard "Judeo-Christian" used by evangelical Christians and Churchians to rationalize circumcision of their newborn babies. "It's part of the Judeo-Christian tradition, don't you know." Well, it's certainly part of the Judeo tradition. And it's specifically prohibited in the Christian tradition. I wish Christians would recognize this.

Blogger Bobo #117 September 10, 2016 10:13 AM  

Most of the Jews among us today aren't really blood - Jews, dna test show most Ashkenazi Jews to be southern - eastern European. As Chuck Missler says, most are Edomites.

So apparently being a Jew today is more of a philosophical tribe than a blood tribe. So therein is its similarity to being a Pirate.
Pira- Christian.

Anonymous Credo in Unum Deum September 10, 2016 10:21 AM  

The Jews of today are not the Jews of 2000 years ago.


Jews 2000 years ago offered sacrifices to God. Jews today do not. Jews do not have priests. Jews have Rabbis. Rabbis today do not offer sacrifices to God, they are NOT priests. Priests offer sacrifices. If you do not do that, you are NOT a priest.

The Levites, the Jewish Priestly Line just sorta "disintegrates" in history after the fall of Jerusalem in 69 AD. Even in Israel today, there are no priests offering sacrifices.

Christianity (Specifically the Catholic Church) has succeeded Judaism.

Rabbis are like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ1ESd70KMo

Blogger Bard September 10, 2016 10:37 AM  

Read some of the Talmud to see how Jews despise and hate Christians. We are dogs and slaves to them. That is why they have taken our news, banks, government, entertainment , and sports. Christ will deal with what remains of them at his return, but Isreal for the Jews and for Pepe's sake, get rid of the Judeo modifier. Modern Judaism does not even read the words of Moses, but their own secular bullshit that christ repeatedly condemned.

Blogger Gary September 10, 2016 10:39 AM  

@MountainMan,
What was the name of the book to which you refer please? Thanks.

Blogger Bard September 10, 2016 10:40 AM  

Read some of the Talmud to see how Jews despise and hate Christians. We are dogs and slaves to them. That is why they have taken our news, banks, government, entertainment , and sports. Christ will deal with what remains of them at his return, but Isreal for the Jews and for Pepe's sake, get rid of the Judeo modifier. Modern Judaism does not even read the words of Moses, but their own secular bullshit that christ repeatedly condemned.

Anonymous BGKB September 10, 2016 10:42 AM  

(as well as Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, atheists and many others) can come together to exchange ideas and live at peace with one another

Is there any point in space/time that moslems have lived at peace with others?

anti-Christian term will think twice about it now that they understand it is also antisemitic and deplored by Jews

Sounds like they only deplore losing control of it, much like Trigglypuff's video.

and we can’t even drink from an open bottle of kosher wine that has been used by a Christian.

Do they drink whine from the bottle or use glasses? Or are there special rules for when its appropriate like metzitzah b’peh?

The problem is that American Protestants get their idea of Jews from movies

They should really have a low opinion then

Blogger Johnny September 10, 2016 10:42 AM  

Bobo #117 wrote:Most of the Jews among us today aren't really blood - Jews, dna test show most Ashkenazi Jews to be southern - eastern European. As Chuck Missler says, most are Edomites.

So apparently being a Jew today is more of a philosophical tribe than a blood tribe. So therein is its similarity to being a Pirate.

Pira- Christian.



Jews sometimes self identify as a race and sometimes as a creed. It depends on circumstance. Given the eleventh commandment, thou shall not be a racist, currently it is going to be creed.

As a matter of ideology they may still be able to claim to be a race even if the biology offers only minimal support.

Blogger dienw September 10, 2016 10:45 AM  

who used the phrase “Judeo-Christian values” as a cudgel in the fight against fellow Americans they accused of being “Godless communists.”

I think he is upset that the term was used against actual Jews: the Judeo-Bolsheviks.

Blogger Krul September 10, 2016 10:47 AM  

OT: "Basket of Deplorables" is the lamest rhetoric I've ever heard. WTF Godzilla?

Anonymous LES September 10, 2016 10:53 AM  

I thought Judeo-Christian was virtue-signaling that "we" Christians aren't anti-Semitic like those Christians who allowed the holocaust.

Anonymous Oye September 10, 2016 10:53 AM  

@15

"I just finished reading a book on Islam and Terrorism. It was written by an Egyptian who converted to Christianity.
He made the point that pretty much anything is acceptable ( in fact encouraged) in the Moslem faith - so long as it furthers the goal of worldwide Moslem dominion. This includes but is not limited to : lying, cheating, stealing pretenses of peace to build trust and scheme...etc...
Its a faith that is totally incompatible in a high trust society like you find in the West. "

Yep. That's exactly why Kaiser Wilhelm the Second laid a wreath at the grave of Saladin Ayoubi out of respect for his wretched conduct during the crusades. And that's exactly why the Muslims gifted Jerusalem to Frederick II of Hohenstaufen during the crusades as well.

Those "you're allowed to use any means for civilizational jihad" advocates themselves are sore and butt-hurt after centuries of foreign intervention and domination. The sore and desperate resort to improvisation, misappropriation and expedience when it comes to legal ideas.

The part of Sharia that stipulates Muslims are allowed to lie simply translates to the fact that those who follow Islam, a comprehensive religious-legal-social system, are allowed to establish their own CIAs, KGBs, Mossads, GHQs, NSAs etc..
Even those epitomes of high trust, the Scandis, have their own intel services.

As for Sharia concerning the everyday muzzie. Its similar to that of Christianity: Mind your own business and lead by example. Don't get into polemics unless there is an invite or necessity.

If you want to read the right books you will find them. If you want to feed your own stink, then eat the crap these hack writers put out. Read real history.

Anonymous BGKB September 10, 2016 10:59 AM  

Even in Israel today, there are no priests offering sacrifices.

Don't they wave a chicken over their heads before sacrificing it when they cheat other jews?

Blogger Alexandros HoMegas September 10, 2016 11:02 AM  

The "Judeo-Christan" term is a new one, used only after the rise of Evangelicals and (((Neocons))).

The Catholic Church pre-Vatican II (1960s) never heard of "Judeo-Christianity", this recent term has been promoted in the last 40 years with obvious political agenda.

Blogger Krul September 10, 2016 11:03 AM  

BGKB wrote:Don't they wave a chicken over their heads before sacrificing it when they cheat other jews?

Yes, but it's not technically a sacrifice according to Rabbi Tovia Singer

Blogger Dexter September 10, 2016 11:03 AM  

I seriously disliked his book, not because I see anything wrong with Conservatism or Conservatives – my most admired politicians have been Sam Nunn and Henry “Scoop” Jackson

Sam Nunn was a conservative? Huh, who knew.

Blogger VD September 10, 2016 11:04 AM  

I thought Judeo-Christian was virtue-signaling that "we" Christians aren't anti-Semitic like those Christians who allowed the holocaust.

That is what it is in practice.

Blogger Matt September 10, 2016 11:07 AM  

*Talmudic Law.

Blogger Brandon Marone September 10, 2016 11:08 AM  

"It is particularly disturbing when Klinghoffer makes statements which reveal his complete assumption of elements of New Testament Pauline ideology, for instance, the requirement that wives submit to their husband’s authority."


Well, rabbi, we think there are some pretty disturbing elements within the Talmud, like the claim that gentiles are lower than dogs and, in the new world order, we will be slaves to the jews. And also that it is perfectly permissible to even kill gentiles. The jews have left their roots behind (i.e. the Old Testament) long ago in favor of their own oral traditions that they installed themselves. It doesn't bother me though, as Christianity is still ultimately the only one true religion.

Blogger Gaiseric September 10, 2016 11:17 AM  

Given the genesis of the phrase among Jewish propagandists looking to tie themselves in a creation myth of the founding and disguise the fact that they are an alien culture in a foreign land, this is more than a little ironic.

Also; these guys should talk to Jewish "conservatives" like Goldberg, Shapiro or Kristol who LOVE to toss out the phrase... for the same reason that it was initially invented.

If there's a mainstream voice among the Jews who now seeks to openly separate themselves in indoctrination from America, that's an interesting development indeed.

Blogger Brandon Marone September 10, 2016 11:20 AM  

Sorry, I meant (((rabbi)))... still learning.

Anonymous VFM #6306 September 10, 2016 11:22 AM  

That's weird. I always thought the academic term "judeo-christian" was coined by jews.

Blogger Gaiseric September 10, 2016 11:22 AM  

Bobo #117 wrote:Most of the Jews among us today aren't really blood - Jews, dna test show most Ashkenazi Jews to be southern - eastern European. As Chuck Missler says, most are Edomites.
There is no way to separate the Edomite DNA from the Jewish DNA. That becomes all speculative when you try to actually assign some scientific confirmation to it. But you're wrong about the southern Europeans. 80% of the mtDNA is from Italy and/or southern France. mtDNA describes matriarchal ancestry. The Y-chromosome DNA, which describes male ancestry, is more than 80% from the Levantine area.

The Ashkenazi Jews were the first historically documented "refugees" from the Middle East who bravely left their own women and children behind, and came to Europe asking "where all dem white girls at?"

Anonymous Ain September 10, 2016 11:33 AM  

"they're not going to have 'come to Jesus' moment any time soon"

There's some eschatological interpretations of prophecy that this actually will happen, but it will be divine in nature and likely from pulling their asses out of the fire.

Blogger Rambam September 10, 2016 11:35 AM  

Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Blogger Dave September 10, 2016 11:40 AM  

So we shouldn't use Judeo-Banker or Judeo-Moneychanger? Would they prefer Judeo-Financier?

Blogger Johnny September 10, 2016 11:44 AM  

If you want to get what Islam is like a good book is "Slavery in the Arab World." The religion lends itself to slavery enough that the history is covered, lacking only our modern period. Plus it is an easy read and focuses on deed not belief, and thus is straight stuff; what they actually do.

Blogger James September 10, 2016 11:52 AM  

I must be a Christian Zionist because I'm a Christian and I support the existence of Israel as a Jew Nation against any and all claims of the Muslim ragheads in the region. There is no way in unholy hell that I could ever bring my self to sympathize with the Philistinians. They are just plain too disgusting and creepy and violent and vicious and criminal in their aspects. But being a Christian who prefers Israel and the Jews over ragheads doesn't mean I'm stupid and don't understand that Jews are enemies of the gospel of Jesus Christ. I am toofa king stupid to explain with much insight what Romans 11:28 means when Paul says, 28 "As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. " But my shortcomings as scholar and theologian aren't enough to goad me into supporting gangster dirtbag dregs like the Philistinians over civilized hardworking productive useful people who contribute positively to human existence like the Israelis. It boils down to the practical choices in the situation as it is.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother September 10, 2016 11:56 AM  

I'm so glad Jews have finally come out and said it straight. We now have no more reason to defer to them, ally with them or pretend they're on our side.

Are they sure this is a good idea, to let the cat out of the bag like this?

Blogger Johnny September 10, 2016 12:16 PM  

We are at war with Islam whether we admit it or not, whether we know it or not. In that conflict Israel is an expedient for our side. Realpolitik is to support them for now, cast the support aside if the situation changes.

Blogger L. Jagi Lamplighter Wright September 10, 2016 12:18 PM  

What word do you recommend, if a person wants to refer to the things that the Jews and Christians have in common? Old Testament?

Blogger Markku September 10, 2016 12:20 PM  

I would say "Mosaic Law", if I was trying to avoid offending Jews.

Anonymous Rolf September 10, 2016 12:21 PM  

A good reason to use the phrase "Western values," then.

Blogger Markku September 10, 2016 12:22 PM  

"Old Testament" is offensive term to the Jews. So:

If I communicate to Christians, I say Old Testament
If I communicate to Christians and Jews, I say Mosaic Law
If I communicate to Jews, I say Torah or Tanach, depending which I'm talking about

OpenID turk187 September 10, 2016 12:26 PM  

"since everyone who is a United States citizen was, until very recently, believed to have been descended from an African ancestor and it is terribly racist to suggest otherwise, regardless of what the latest science might say."

Do you have some links on this? It's news to me and I'd like to know more.

I've always just taken "Judeo-Christian" to mean drawing on the old testament. But, that could just have been me misunderstanding this.

Blogger James September 10, 2016 12:28 PM  

As an orthodox, fundamentalist, evangelical, traditional "Christian," it is my understanding that the "world" hates me, and I ain't got no friends in it, as it were, so to speak. Therefore, it is no surprise to me that Jews, Muslims, Pagans, Atheists, Agnostics, etc, are not my friends and strongly tend to some extent or another to be my enemies. Since Jews are first on the list of those who are innately enemies of Christ, why be shocked that there are issues and problems where Jews relationship with Christendom are concerned? The Jews are offended by Jesus Christ, they think He's blasphemous and a false prophet. I think they're wrong, and I think God did things this way as part of His overall program of confounding the wisdom of the wise and bringing low the high minded and those who are wise in their own eyes and who think they have the inside lock on spiritual superiority. Ain't it just like God for Him to promise that at the end of the process the Jews will come to their senses and look on Him whom they have pierced and mourn for Him as for an only Son? It's marvelous in my eyes; ain't it marvelous in anybody else's eyes?

Anonymous Axe Head September 10, 2016 12:31 PM  

OY VEY, IT'S ANNUDA SHOAH!

Anonymous Dale Warner September 10, 2016 12:32 PM  

The issue of naming & labeling is always on the first tier of one's understanding of one's place in the human realm, and I agree that "Judeo-Christian" was always a nonsense label.

Hebrews broke away from older, indigenous, nature religions at a mountain-top meet with their particular god and pledged to support that singular god, eschew all other gods (First Commandment: "You shall have no other gods before Me"), and agree to a covenant based on the so-called Ten Commandments.

Then Christians broke away from the Hebrew religion that characterized itself as chosen by virtue of the mountain-top meet and receipt of the Ten Commandments. The divorce was the recognition of three persons in one via the Nicene Creed adopted by the church in the Fourth Century. That idea is anathema to Jews, and can never by accepted by Jews or Muslims, for that matter.

However, Christians persist in the belief that the Ten Commandments are theirs to preach while Jews find that appropriation of their cultural heritage to be offensive. When we accepted the Trinity as a legal & religious category, we abandoned the Ten Commandments.

It is surprising that most Americans do not understand that the Ten Commandments are the trade-marked property of the Jewish people. That's why lawsuits seek to remove the Ten Commandments posted by Christians every now and then.

But as Trump might say, let's make a deal. We can easily recognize that "Judeo-Christian" is nonsense & stop using it, if they will recognize that their supremacist naming & labeling of us as "goyim," "shiksas," and "gentiles" is wholly inappropriate. We have the unlimited right to name and label ourselves, and we do not choose hate labels like "goyim," "shiksas," or gentiles" That's a good Trumpian style deal.

Anonymous Oye September 10, 2016 12:35 PM  

"Plus it is an easy read and focuses on deed not belief, and thus is straight stuff; what they actually do."

Southeast Asian sex slaves are a real testament to the American lead order of peace and prosperity. In South Korea there are brothels servicing U.S. bases (right outside the bases). The women in them are trafficked from Russia, Eastern Europe and even Southeast Asia. A couple of U.S. servicemen visiting one of these brothels were asked what they thought about their conduct and these womens' exploitation, the servicemen replied "We're here to protect democracy, not practice it."
That's deed and not belief, and thus is straight stuff; what they actually do.

You wanna talk about pedophilia in the Muslim world? Gee, I wonder how the whole Southeast Asian sex tourism industry started off... did it have something to do with the Vietnam War?

Anonymous johnc September 10, 2016 12:38 PM  

@48 The Catholic Church pre-Vatican II (1960s) never heard of "Judeo-Christianity", this recent term has been promoted in the last 40 years with obvious political agenda.

Remember when Benedict restored the Latin Mass and the ADL, etc. fuh-LIPPED out at the liturgical prayers that referenced "the perfidious Jews"? What else are we supposed to call them?

If they don't like it they can move out of the West, which is the civilization that our ancestors built for their Christian progeny.

Blogger DrAndroSF September 10, 2016 12:50 PM  

Vox is too smart not to be consciously using rhetoric here: to condemn the use of one ideologically loaded phrase ("Judeo-Christian) on the basis of another ideologically loaded phrase ("anti-Semitism).

Anti-Semitic has not objective meaning; it simply pathologizes any fact, belief, attitude or action which someone deems to be insufficiently friendly to or celebratory of Jews.

In fact, the entire grammar of political moralism within which we are submerged and entranced --racism, sexism, xenophobia...all the isms and phobias-- are nothing more than variation on that same syntax and all equally meaningless except as rhetorical weapons.

As which, alas, they have been superbly effective.

Blogger bob k. mando September 10, 2016 1:01 PM  

VD
"since everyone who is a United States citizen was, until very recently, believed to have been descended from an African ancestor and it is terribly racist to suggest otherwise, regardless of what the latest science might say."

69. turk187 September 10, 2016 12:26 PM
Do you have some links on this? It's news to me and I'd like to know more.


he's talking about the Out of Africa theory vs what actual gene sequencing has found; ie - that EVERY population group EXCEPT for Negro Africans ( Caucasian, Asian, American Aboriginal, Pacific islander, etc ) shows admixture from various Neanderthal populations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recent_African_origin_of_modern_humans


But in the 1950s the term was adopted by political conservatives who used the phrase “Judeo-Christian values” as a cudgel in the fight against fellow Americans they accused of being “Godless communists.”

*facedesk*

thus explaining to the stupid Goy, once again, that the Bolsheviks were True Jews and how dare you hold them accountable for their crimes.

Roseanne would be proud.

Anonymous Oye September 10, 2016 1:11 PM  

@76
"thus explaining to the stupid Goy, once again, that the Bolsheviks were True Jews and how dare you hold them accountable for their crimes."

Ironically, if you watched Bill Lind's C-Span video (Origins of Political Correctness) he states how Moscow didn't even bless the nonsense coming out of the Frankfurt School. They condemned all that weird stuff.

I'm not saying NAJALT. I'm just saying it's complicated.

Blogger VD September 10, 2016 1:33 PM  

What word do you recommend, if a person wants to refer to the things that the Jews and Christians have in common? Old Testament?

Mosaic Law or Abrahamic faiths, with the caveat that they also share these things with Muslims. This is the problem that the philosemites usually face; any time they want to try to conflate Judaism with Christianity, they must also include Islam or they are being deceptive.

Anonymous W. Lindsay W September 10, 2016 2:20 PM  

The Church Fathers, I believe, taught supercession. The Christian Faith supercedes the Jewish Faith. All things that were Jewish, is now Christian. It is the Christian Bible, not the Jewish Bible. The Old Testament is part of the Christian Heritage. The Old Testament is Christian, not Jewish.

Blogger Elder Son September 10, 2016 2:32 PM  

The whole thing reads: This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men. You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men.

Blogger Zeroh Tollrants September 10, 2016 2:42 PM  

I must admit that I also thought it was a term used to virtue signal and attempt to sew the religions together in our, "can't we all get along," American multi culti quilt.
This is all very informative.

Blogger bob k. mando September 10, 2016 3:13 PM  

77. Oye September 10, 2016 1:11 PM
I'm not saying NAJALT. I'm just saying it's complicated.


yeah, uh huh.

https://www.ou.org/torah/parsha/rabbi-weinreb-on-parsha/rabbi-weinrebs-parsha-column-korach-two-jews-three-opinions/

notice the parallels between "Two Jews, Three Opinions" and Hegelian Dialectic?

notice also, that by setting themselves up as 'thought leaders' on BOTH SIDES of a debate, Jews are thereby easily able to control both the direction of the Synthesis ( Thesis is opposed by Antithesis, the resulting interaction produces Synthesis ) as well as establishing themselves as Gatekeepers as to what is "acceptable" thought on any side of a debate.

http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/38974-the-best-way-to-control-the-opposition-is-to-lead

Blogger VD September 10, 2016 3:22 PM  

I'm not saying NAJALT. I'm just saying it's complicated.

It's only complicated from the ideological perspective. It's all very clear from the identity perspective. Because it simply doesn't matter what the J is L. AJAJ.

Blogger Rambam September 10, 2016 3:49 PM  

Does Islam worship YHWH or have a covenant with him. YHWH is the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Jesus.

Blogger The Aardvark September 10, 2016 3:50 PM  

"Jewish law permits Jews to enter a mosque… but not a church...."
Thus the utter rejection of Messiah is declared, revealing the Jesus' prophesied judgment of Jerusalem, including the destruction of the Temple, to be timely and just.

Blogger Elder Son September 10, 2016 3:50 PM  

People need to stop worshiping the Jews/Israel. These Rabbi's do, and admit, to exactly what Christ accused them of.

More crucially, Christians rely on the Old Testament for legal delineation; whereas Jews rely solely upon our rabbinic tradition.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+23&version=ESV

Incidentally, we have more in common with Muslims than we do with Christians; Jewish law permits Jews to enter a mosque… but not a church....

Jewish law? Because it is okay to enter a Temple of Baal, but to enter a House of Christ, might what? Make you unclean?

Claiming to be wise, they became fools.

Blogger Shimshon September 10, 2016 4:05 PM  

Jews have our own standard of "submission" but it is absolutely clear in Jewish law that a wife must submit to her husband, in the plain sense of the word.

Blogger jandolin September 10, 2016 4:06 PM  

We are at war with Islam whether we admit it or not, whether we know it or not. In that conflict Israel is an expedient for our side. Realpolitik is to support them for now, cast the support aside if the situation changes.

Bullshit. American and European support for Israel has provoked Arab Muslim rage against the West. If the West is at war with Islam, why do jewish organizations call for more Muslim immigration into the West.

Anonymous FP September 10, 2016 4:30 PM  

"Incidentally, we have more in common with Muslims than we do with Christians; Jewish law permits Jews to enter a mosque… but not a church...."

Well, ya learn something new everyday. Kind of puts the Spanish Inquisition in a new light.

Blogger synp September 10, 2016 4:45 PM  

FP wrote:"Incidentally, we have more in common with Muslims than we do with Christians; Jewish law permits Jews to enter a mosque… but not a church...."

Well, ya learn something new everyday. Kind of puts the Spanish Inquisition in a new light.


Well, Muslims worship the same one God that Jews do. Christians worship a trinity. This makes a Church a place of worshipping false gods in violation of the Noahide law. That is why an observant Orthodox Jew cannot enter a Church.

Muslims follow the right god and reject all others. That makes their places of worship "kosher"

Blogger L. Jagi Lamplighter Wright September 10, 2016 4:46 PM  

There are times when one might want to refer to things that Christians and Jews share that Muslims dont, but I agree that usually, it is all three.

Blogger tublecane September 10, 2016 5:05 PM  

@9-I always thought "kike" came from the short form of Isaac, "Ike," and how Jews would be taunted by Peter calling, "Ikey, Ikey," which got shortened to "kike." Or something like that. Your version is less plausible, but what do I know? There's no rhyme or reason as to how these things get started.

Blogger tublecane September 10, 2016 5:08 PM  

Calling something anti-semitic is the go-to for getting Jews on your side, admittedly. But I still like the idea of talking about Judeo-Muslim values every time Muslims come up, which would piss off the neocons. Maybe we could add in Judeo-Nazi values, to be oxymoronic. (Though a lot of Nazis were Christians, so according to users of the phrase they had Judeo-Christian values, too.)

Anonymous SciVo September 10, 2016 5:08 PM  

Incidentally, we have more in common with Muslims than we do with Christians; Jewish law permits Jews to enter a mosque… but not a church....

I always wondered why Jews would open city gates to Moslems, or give nuclear secrets to godless commies. Now it is clear: they have a religious aversion to Christians. They can't talk enough about how Christianity literally worships a Jew when they want something from us; but they actually prefer rapey and/or totalitarian mass-murderers, as long as they aren't Christian.

In fact, there is considerable evidence (such as standard history textbooks for American classrooms) that genocide is only horrible to Jews when it's done against them; otherwise, it's entirely unobjectionable, especially if Christians are the victims (e.g. Constantinople and the Holodomor).

I've been a long time recovering from my pathological philosemitism, but I'm finally getting over it and seeing this solipsistic desert tribe as it is.

Blogger James September 10, 2016 5:09 PM  

Hey, Aardvark, have you ever heard of my pet theory, that Talmudic Jews invented Islam and wrote the Koran as a way to fight against Christianity, and that it all went swimmingly until modern Israel was being founded in the last 100 or so years, at which time the Muslims turned against the Jews and decided to make war against them and expel them from their countries, among other things? I think of it like as if Mary Shelley's "Frankenstein" was an allegory about it. It's like the Jews created a doomsday monster to destroy their enemies and now it's rampaging over the whole world killing willy nilly.

Blogger Elder Son September 10, 2016 5:58 PM  

We don't worship a Jew. We worship YHWH. Christ is our intercessor, and He is not sitting at the right hand of God proclaiming to be Jew-God.

Anonymous SciVo September 10, 2016 6:01 PM  

James, Truth is elusive, so it's important to both entertain wacky mental models and also to excise them. Scary Hillary wouldn't do anything different if she were a lizard queen, but she's probably actually a human sociopath. Islamic mass murder of Christians wouldn't be any more copacetic with Jews if they created the religiophitic themselves, but the simplest explanation is a low-IQ rapist doing cultural appropriation.

Blogger Matamoros September 10, 2016 6:02 PM  

@79 The Old Testament is Christian, not Jewish.

Well, this is literally true in that the Jews created their own Old Testament - the Masoretic text, while the Church used the LXX (Septuagint).

Anonymous SciVo September 10, 2016 6:05 PM  

Or maybe a high-IQ rapist doing cultural appropriation. I haven't actually read the Koran, but Mohammed convinced enough people that from the results, I have to assume that he wasn't stupid. Just evil.

Blogger Matamoros September 10, 2016 6:08 PM  

"Jewish law permits Jews to enter a mosque… but not a church...."

Not surprising in that Mohammed was a Jew (his mother was a Jew, which makes him a true Jew).

Mohammedism is a satanic "religion" largely based upon the Arian heresy along with Mohammeds satanic visions.

So it is not surprising that a Jew can go to a mosque but not a church.

Anonymous SciVo September 10, 2016 6:20 PM  

Elder Son wrote:We don't worship a Jew. We worship YHWH. Christ is our intercessor, and He is not sitting at the right hand of God proclaiming to be Jew-God.

In the Trinity, Christ and the Holy Spirit are other facets of a singular God, like if a hypercube were to manifest. We would see different parts of the same thing. But anyway, Jesus was Galilean.

Blogger James September 10, 2016 6:27 PM  

"Matamoros has left a new comment on the post ""Judeo-Christian" is antisemitic": "Jewish law permits Jews to enter a mosque… but not a church...."Not surprising in that Mohammed was a Jew (his mother was a Jew, which makes him a true Jew). Mohammedism is a satanic "religion" largely based upon the Arian heresy along with Mohammeds satanic visions.So it is not surprising that a Jew can go to a mosque but not a church. "

If you lay out the pieces of evidence and look at them with an open objective mind, willing to think outside the traditional box, I think my theory about Talmudic Jews writing the Koran and being the founders of Islam, with the intent of opposing and hopefully destroying Christianity, makes a lot of sense.

Blogger rcocean September 10, 2016 6:43 PM  

I found the remark about rabbinical law superseding the Old testament rather interesting. It ties in something a Jew said in talking about Christianity and Judaism. He said he was glad to be a Jew, because it isn't tied down to a set of words written down 2,000-3,000 years ago, but has evolved over the years and moved with the times.

Blogger rcocean September 10, 2016 6:44 PM  

Just another nail in the Christian Zionists belief that 21st Century Jews are just like the ancient Hebrews.

Blogger Rambam September 10, 2016 6:51 PM  

There are over 50 names for God in the biblical text. I wonder why the church settled on three?

Anonymous Oye September 10, 2016 7:29 PM  

@83 So in you perspective Bolshevism was relatively infantile compared to the Frankurt school's version of communism; it was only missing the sexual component to it? Same old dilute and pollute?

@95 There were real tangible political motions inside Israel and the Arab world towards peace. The neocons (atheist jews, AJAJ I guess according to Vox) didn't think a Middle-East peace made a good pretext in order intervene should the need ever arise. The thinking at the Pentagon and CIA was to have a strategically reserved conflict. All peace leaning positions in Israel withered. I credit D.C. for this bungle. Who were the (((puppet masters)))?

@99 I don't think he was evil taking into account the pre-Islamic Arabian context. The post Muhammad expansion of Islam wasn't as "evil" as the hysterics make it out to be. It looks more like areas conquered by the Muslims were disposed towards a more favorable (and profitable) order. Like what's happening now; Russo-Turkish rapprochement and establishment of Eurasia.

@100 and 102 Why don't you read a f*ckin book to disabuse your own ignorance? How do you know Arianism wasn't the truth and that the Trinity wasn't? You don't suspect for a second that the Trinity was the pagan falsehood that was injected into Christianity that won?

Isaac Newton was an Arian. I like to think a logical mind leads to logical thinking and answers.

Though they are weirdos, but the Jehovah's witnesses are neo-Arians. Oh, and Muhammad preceded the Jehovah's, the Unitarians and Isaac Newton. Your claim that he was an "Arian heretic" is leading onto something.... that he might have been the chronologically closest figure to restoring the Arian teachings of Christ. That's one interpretation that resounds intensely with me.

Blogger guest September 10, 2016 7:42 PM  

That is correct. And in addition to that both Jews and Muslims vote left-wing. Neither Jews nor Muslims join in the sorrow of the degradation and depravity of US social and sexual values. Furthermore, one rarely hears Jews express gratitude to the European Christians who risked life and limb to save their sorry hides from the gas chambers of Germany.

This has actually been a new revelation for me. I've only recently considered it.

Blogger Elder Son September 10, 2016 7:46 PM  

There are over 50 names for God in the biblical text. I wonder why the church settled on three?

Not really, you have to put it all in context, root word and etc.

There are many Elohim, God is Elohim, but there is only one YHWH.

Blogger Rambam September 10, 2016 8:08 PM  

@ 108

I would think elohim would be considered a homonym. All the names of God occurring in scripture are derived from his actions, except YHWH, the nomen proprium.

Blogger Tim September 10, 2016 10:32 PM  

Isaac Newton was an alchemist. Human reasoning is very unreliable.

Blogger Elder Son September 10, 2016 11:01 PM  

Those are attributes that declare His character, not His name. God is good, but good is not His name. God is merciful, but merciful is not His name.

El Elyon: The Most High God. God is most high, but most high is not His name.

Yahweh Tsidkenu: The Lord our Righteousness. The Lord is our Righteousness, but His name is not righteousness.

Blogger M Cephas September 10, 2016 11:30 PM  

Well "Jew" in the New Testament eventually took on the meaning "rejector of Christ" essentially. The Jews that accepted Christ became Christians, Catholic in particular. The Jews that rejected Him, killed Him, and have been anti-Christian ever since.

Blogger Lazarus September 10, 2016 11:34 PM  

Oye wrote:Isaac Newton was an Arian. I like to think a logical mind leads to logical thinking and answers.

Spock would be an Arian.

Blogger synp September 11, 2016 4:17 AM  

SciVo wrote:Elder Son wrote:We don't worship a Jew. We worship YHWH. Christ is our intercessor, and He is not sitting at the right hand of God proclaiming to be Jew-God.

In the Trinity, Christ and the Holy Spirit are other facets of a singular God...


"And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

Because that is how different facets of the same being talk to each other.

Yeah, yeah, I know. Fully God and fully human.

Blogger Bodo Staron September 11, 2016 6:21 AM  

It's from the same channel were the somewhat crazy Talmud Jews were featured. If you haven't seen it yet: Why is Jesus not the Messiah for Jews?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiFixVjwAYk

Blogger M Cephas September 11, 2016 6:48 AM  

@114.

"Because that is how different facets of the same being talk to each other."

I'm sure if a person were to create a god, they would make it very understandable and lacking in complexity. Like the kind you get from Islam. A human creation. One in one being.

I don't get that argument that you can't understand something, so therefore it must not be true.

Anonymous SciVo September 11, 2016 9:54 AM  

Oye wrote:The post Muhammad expansion of Islam wasn't as "evil" as the hysterics make it out to be. It looks more like areas conquered by the Muslims were disposed towards a more favorable (and profitable) order.

I'm sure that the men killed and women raped would totally agree. /sarc

synp wrote:Because that is how different facets of the same being talk to each other.

Yeah, yeah, I know. Fully God and fully human.


Yes, actually. Jesus was fully human, as God extended a pseudopod into the World to understand us truly (and also make a perfect scapegoat).

But I probably shouldn't get involved in theological discussions, since I have such idiosyncratic beliefs, which is why I've avoided those debates. There is little for others to gain from my Catholic/Baptist/Pentecostal/Evangelical/Pagan/Whatever input, although it's worked great for me so far (knock on wood).

Anonymous Oye September 11, 2016 10:45 AM  

@110 Yes he was. In his mystical search for religious truth he participated in a discipline that was the forerunner to modern chemistry - a discipline unapproachable if there is want for logic. Analogous to the Sufi mystics that brought trigonometry to maturity and furthered algebra. They racked their brains with trig just to find the direction of prayer.

@114 and 116 The Monophystism vs. Duophystism debate. I don't want to even touch that. That hairball thinking doesn't accompany the Arian creed. Needless loss of blood just because of the Trinity's unavoidable confusion.

@116 Study the Islamic concept of fitra. Kant and Aquinas borrowed heavily from that idea. Aquinas quotes Al-Ghazali often in his Summa.

@117 "I'm sure that the men killed and women raped would totally agree. /sarc" You have a knack for looking at the big picture eh?
I subordinate my interpretation of details to the forces that dictate the direction of interpretation. If you want to throw a wrench into the conversation, feel free anytime.

Blogger James September 11, 2016 11:26 AM  

Reasoning is reliable, but humans are not. I wish people wouldn't call it "human reasoning." Either it is reasoning or it is not reasoning. Humans, even Sir Isaac Newton, sometimes reason and then sometimes the same human goes off half cocked unreasonably. The Bible tells us to "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." I Thessalonians 5:21. Which by my interpretation means don't just swallow what you are being fed but examine it with the brain tools God gave you.

Blogger Rambam September 11, 2016 11:27 AM  

@111
These are "names" that reflect some attribute or characteristic of the ONE God of the Bible.
El Elyon: the highest God
El Yeshuati: the God of my salvation
Ruach Elohim: Spirit of God, ie the Holy Spirit.
The empowering aspect of deity.
Moshiah: savior.

etc.

Blogger James September 11, 2016 11:30 AM  

Allow me to suggest that just because there is more than one name for God doesn't mean there is more than One God. Isaiah 9:6 "6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

Blogger James September 11, 2016 11:51 AM  

"It's from the same channel were the somewhat crazy Talmud Jews were featured. If you haven't seen it yet: Why is Jesus not the Messiah for Jews?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiFixVjwAYk "
Romans 11:25 "25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. "


Anonymous Oye September 11, 2016 11:54 AM  

@ 119 Lookup the Arab word Aql. The Shiites and Esoteric Sunnis expanded upon it. The Sunnis are still lacking implementation of some insights from the Aql perspective. It's because they are fearfully conservative - a stance that comes with pluses and minuses. The ISIS regression being an example of a minus.

@121 I leave it you to compare and contrast it to the Islamic 99 names of God. The 99 names are merely attributes that condense into, I believe, 7 or 20 fundamental attributes. Theologically, the 99 name meme has little value. It is gambit to encourage mysticism/asceticism or just simple reflection and piety.

The 7 or 20 fundamental attributes are the ones the theologians are concerned with.

Blogger James September 11, 2016 11:55 AM  

>>>>I don't get that argument that you can't understand something, so therefore it must not be true.<<<<
What we need is a corollary to Occam's Razor which states that just because we are too dumb to understand an explanation it does not mean that it isn't true.

Blogger synp September 11, 2016 3:46 PM  

M Cephas wrote:@114.

"Because that is how different facets of the same being talk to each other."

I'm sure if a person were to create a god, they would make it very understandable and lacking in complexity. Like the kind you get from Islam. A human creation. One in one being.


I'm hardly one to be able to argue theology well. I've had maybe 1 hour a week of Talmud for one year in high school and even that was taught by a non-religious woman.

But we do know that most of the gods people create come in soap-opera pantheons. We are very familiar with the factions, betrayals and in-fighting of the Greek gods, and the Aztec gods have rather similar stories as do the ancient Sumerian and Babylonian gods.

The monotheistic religions are different, not so much in that there is one god instead of many, but in that having just one god does away with all the conflict and drama. There is conflict and drama among non-gods, and there may be conflict and drama between the one god and the non-gods, but the one god is unity.

This is true for all monotheistic religions. So much so, that I claim that all monotheistic gods are the same, YHWH, Allah, even Krishna according to some sects of Hinduism. We all have different views on the nature of this one God, but that is true for different sects of Christianity, Judaism and Islam as well.

The dual nature of Jesus is to Jews a return to the drama. We can't accept that one facet of a single entity will complain that another facet has forsaken him. We can't accept that one facet of the singular God will be merged with a human. We consider those ideas as heresy, which is why it got labeled "avoda zara"

Anonymous SciVo September 12, 2016 7:59 AM  

Oye wrote:@117 "I'm sure that the men killed and women raped would totally agree. /sarc" You have a knack for looking at the big picture eh?

I subordinate my interpretation of details to the forces that dictate the direction of interpretation. If you want to throw a wrench into the conversation, feel free anytime.


I've re-read that several times and it's nonsense. You were wrong the first time because what happens to people matters. Simple as that, or you're a psychopath.

Blogger NordUni September 12, 2016 10:23 AM  

From what I understand, Jews view Christianity as a form of idolatry, due to the fact that they view any veering from pure Monotheism (the Trinity) as prohibited. So all the prohibitions that go for idolatry in the Old Testament go for Christianity.
As Islam has what Jews view as a pure form of Monotheism, they do not have those prohibitions, and can enter their places of worship, etc.

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