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Friday, September 23, 2016

Mailvox: the Alt-Right's big tent

A reader produces a graphic meant to illustrate the full spectrum of the broader Alt-Right. Agree with it or not, I think it is a good first start on beginning to meme the other aspects of the Alt-Right.
Your observations on the intrinsic branches, or roots, of the Alt-Right greatly helped clarify my own understanding of how the "big tent" ideology and its connected sub-identities would best interact each other. I agree with you that a forward-looking, symbiotic mutualism between the distinct Alt-White and Alt-West branches is desirable at this time. The Alt-White Scotsmen busy administering purity tests, "that person is no true Alt-Right..." have obviously missed point #12: The Alt-Right doesn't care what you think of it. Any branch on the Alt-Right tree that doesn't shut up and produce desirable fruit will be best ignored until it withers away.

I also concur that the implicit tension between the two current branches of the Alt-Right is actually beneficial. There should be healthy, competitive tendency for each Alt-branch to seek out the most effective tactics for its immediate survival and subsequent growth. Attempts to impose one group's identity & tactics onto the other, or merge the two would be as effective as giving a marathon runner two right shoes and then tying his legs together.

In reading through the vigorous chiseling of the comments in the "ALTRIGHT: 16 POINTS", I attempted to make an initial visual depiction of what I could grasp. At that time, I was primarily focused on symbolically distilling out some of the identity politics/tactics of the Alt-Right:

- Opposes the Left
- Opposes the ideas of Equality, Diversity, Tolerance, Progress, Control
- Fights on the identity/culture level
- Accepts any that are willing to fight who subscribe to some/all of its tenets
- Maintains the higher ground (what makes life better?)
- Recognizes the uphill fight requires more energy

It does have flaws, which I can recognize: seems to imply/advocate defensive or reactive tactics, much too wordy, doesn't delineate between the Alt-branches, etc. Praise kek that it did, indeed, lead to a second, more successful attempt which is in more alignment with the clear, tactical understanding of the Alt-Right:

I. Alt-Right is forward-looking and not defensive.
II. Alt-White and Alt-West are independent and distinct branches.
III. Their success, either individually or together, results in success of the Alt-Right.
IV. Other Alt-branches can be added, as long as they share enough of the same philosophy and direction.
V. Alt-Lite can be considered allies, as long as they are not interfering with the two primary branches.
VI. Fighting between branches or internally within a branch is not constructive.
VII. Each branch can be arranged however they see fit (or add their own sub-branches, e.g. Alt-White:US and Alt-West:German).
VIII. Stronger individual branches and a broad collection of branches is ultimately beneficial to the Alt-Right
IX. No branch is more important than the others nor leads the other branches
X. The head of the Alt-Right is Pepe

This iconography does raise the question of "what other viable Alt-branches are there?" for the Alt-Right. I would not be surprised to see Alt-Masculinity be a potential ally given the success and philosophical direction of Roosh.


I would propose rather than "Alt-Lite groups", the top six phalanxes represent intellectual strains, from Stormfront to NPI and the Dread Ilk. Or perhaps it would be more effective if six "leaders" were named, beginning with Richard Spencer, and for the lulz, Donald Trump. I leave it to the commenters to hash out which six individuals merit being named, but Jared Taylor and RamZPaul are two obvious candidates. Milo, not so much.

I also think, that for the purposes of Twitter meming, it would be best to have Alt-White on top, Alt-West in the middle, and Alt-Lite on the bottom, leaving out the word "Branch", which is implied by the three separate groups. No meme should ever have a "fill-in-the blank" aspect to it.

Labels: ,

131 Comments:

OpenID leukosfash September 23, 2016 6:17 AM  

Sorry to OT, Vox, but I want to help Oz tip this skittle's poll for the good guys: https://twitter.com/mariamveiszadeh/status/778883826554548225

I know you'll delete it if it's out of line.

Anonymous Takin' a Deplorable Look September 23, 2016 6:19 AM  

It's not bad, true to Kek/Pepe.

To me, the Alt-Right is synonymous with the 14 words. As long as you agree with that statement, you are Alt-Right.

Anonymous No really September 23, 2016 6:32 AM  

I still don't understand the whole frog fixation thing.

Blogger Shimshon September 23, 2016 6:44 AM  

Totally OT but I am now ready to Gab! I was around 42K.

Blogger Benjamin Kraft September 23, 2016 6:47 AM  

@3 The frog fixation thing is a psychological bident, with the dual purposes of:
#1: Raising our morale by being hilarious.
#2: Lowering the enemy's morale "Not that F*%$^&#^&# frog AGAIN!"

Blogger Demonic Professor El September 23, 2016 6:52 AM  

Norman Podhoretz, for the big LULZ.

Anonymous VFM #6306 September 23, 2016 6:57 AM  

Hillary Clinton, ol' frog in her throat, felt it neccessary to include a "frog explainer" in her own campaign materials.

That's why.

Blogger Samuel Nock September 23, 2016 7:00 AM  

"it would be best to have Alt-White on top, Alt-West in the middle, and Alt-Lite on the bottom"

Very similar to the taxonomy described in an article yesterday at Counter-Currents: "The Caste System of the Alt Right":

http://www.counter-currents.com/2016/09/the-caste-system-of-the-alt-right/

Blogger Lazarus September 23, 2016 7:00 AM  

There are believed to be as many as 1,000 armed opposition groups in Syria, commanding an estimated 100,000 fighters.

Many of the groups are small and operate on a local level, but a number have emerged as powerful forces with affiliates across the country or formed alliances with other groups that share a similar agenda.


Seems to be a trend.

Blogger Salt September 23, 2016 7:02 AM  

No named leaders, for the lulz or not. Trunp is running for a political office, so identified with but not a leader of.

Blogger Samuel Nock September 23, 2016 7:04 AM  

@8

I left a lengthy comment at that article on VD's role in it because I think their placement of him in the caste system significantly underestimates his importance as a theorist of the Alt Right, and relegates him to a kind of anti-SJW / GG persona.

Anonymous karsten September 23, 2016 7:06 AM  

I found this to be a very good take on Alt-Right taxonomy (though its classification of Vox seems too narrow). But in particular, it is of value in giving further explication of the Alt-White and its subdivisions:

http://www.counter-currents.com/2016/09/the-caste-system-of-the-alt-right/

Apart from that, I generally agree with the recent Vox piece on the distinctions between Alt-White and Alt-West. Based on his run-down, I'm fully Alt-White, however with this stipulation:

-White Nationalism for America
-Ethno-Nationalism for Europe

Blogger Samuel Nock September 23, 2016 7:09 AM  

@12

I just also linked to the same article. I agree with you that the classification of VD is too narrow as well as underestimating VD's importance. I commented at length to that effect.

http://www.counter-currents.com/2016/09/the-caste-system-of-the-alt-right/#comment-1366820

Blogger Demonic Professor El September 23, 2016 7:10 AM  

Salt wrote:No named leaders, for the lulz or not. Trunp is running for a political office, so identified with but not a leader of.

What about Jonah Goldberg for the big LULZ? Or Cenk Uygur?

Blogger Phillip George September 23, 2016 7:10 AM  

"in this sign conquer"
"sola scrptura"

Britain ruled the World exactly when the majority of it sang from exactly the same prayer book every week. Then they were literally blinded by science [falsely so-called].

that's two thousand years in less than 50 words.

good graphic
+ frogs were one of the ten plagues.
they drove everyone quietly mad.
it all works.

Blogger VD September 23, 2016 7:14 AM  

The Bell article is very good, and encouraging too, in that the Alt-White leaders are looking outward rather than inward. However, I am not sure this characterization is entirely correct:

"Of course, he is only part-white and does not explicitly push a pro-white or pro-Western agenda (though he comes close.)"

Part-white is correct, but I truly don't see how my agenda could be any more explicitly pro-Western. And it is both explicitly and implicitly pro-white, it merely isn't sole-white.

Blogger VD September 23, 2016 7:22 AM  

Vox is taking issue with Greg’s idea that “the Alt Right is White Nationalism … or it is nothing”.

To clarify, I am only disagreeing with one potential interpretation of that statement. I don't know precisely how he means it. I would agree with the interpretation "The Alt-Right supports White Nationalism or it is pointless and doomed to failure." I would not agree with the interpretation "The Alt Right is white nationalism and absolutely nothing else."

I would certainly welcome a discussion with Greg on the subject regardless of which interpretation is closer to his intended meaning.

Blogger L' Aristokrato September 23, 2016 7:24 AM  

As long as the core principles of nations/nationalism and identity/identitarianism are maintained, it's all good; Anyone can join in that regard. We can agree to disagree and argue about each other's values once the current zeitgeist is done for.

If we ever get to some kind of vapid "we just oppose SJWs" type of movement however, wherein purges of 'those eeevil waacists' start to so much as get mentioned, we're in trouble.

I'm all for being diplomatoc and trying to appeal to as many people as possible, but not to the point where all meaning is lost and we devolve into the insipid realms of 'cultural libertarians'.

Blogger Ben Sanderson September 23, 2016 7:24 AM  

This is just silly. Can we be grown men here? This is very clear: the altright is white nationalism, with the ultimate goal of an ethnostate. It's Zionism for the indigenous white Europeans. That's it, that's all, folks. Making fun of sjw's is fun, but it ain't white nationalism. Picking a leader, debating over leaders... this is child's play.

Blogger Samuel Nock September 23, 2016 7:33 AM  

@17 Thank you for the response and clarification, Vox.

Greg Johnson's view on what he meant are in an article called "The Alt Right Means White Nationalism ... or Nothing At All" that he wrote in response to Hillary Clinton's speech.

http://www.counter-currents.com/2016/08/the-alt-right-means-white-nationalism/

Blogger Benjamin Kraft September 23, 2016 7:34 AM  

@19 Yes, we can be clear. However, clarity would dictate than in any heterogeneous sample, which the Alt-Right IS, as soon as it's composed of more than one person, it's not going to be entirely about a single thing, even if that thing may be a big issue (white nationalism) or even a majority issue (many other issues as well as white nationalism).

That's not it, that's not all, and no, the alt-right isn't entirely about white nationalism. It'd be equally logical to say it's about Christianity and Christian values.

White nationalism is one aspect.
Opposition to Marxism of every kind is another aspect.
Etc.
Etc.
Etc.

Anonymous FrankNorman September 23, 2016 7:36 AM  

19. Ben Sanderson September 23, 2016 7:24 AM

This is just silly. Can we be grown men here? This is very clear: the altright is white nationalism, with the ultimate goal of an ethnostate. It's Zionism for the indigenous white Europeans. That's it, that's all, folks. Making fun of sjw's is fun, but it ain't white nationalism. Picking a leader, debating over leaders... this is child's play.


There's this thing grown men do, called co-operation with other people. Helping others get what they want, and they in turn help you get what you want.

Blogger VD September 23, 2016 7:36 AM  

This is just silly. Can we be grown men here? This is very clear: the altright is white nationalism, with the ultimate goal of an ethnostate. It's Zionism for the indigenous white Europeans. That's it, that's all, folks. Making fun of sjw's is fun, but it ain't white nationalism. Picking a leader, debating over leaders... this is child's play.

Don't be stupid. If that's all it is, then you're irrelevant and you'll need to find another name, because there are 100 of us for every one of you. Moreover, you have no connection to the larger part of those you claim to be influences.

Your position is incoherent and intrinsically self-limiting.

Blogger Demonic Professor El September 23, 2016 7:43 AM  

Ben Sanderson wrote:This is just silly. Can we be grown men here? This is very clear: the altright is white nationalism, with the ultimate goal of an ethnostate. It's Zionism for the indigenous white Europeans. That's it, that's all, folks. Making fun of sjw's is fun, but it ain't white nationalism. Picking a leader, debating over leaders... this is child's play.

No sense of humor allowed in the One True Alt-Right?

I suppose I shouldn't make a joke about Our Leader's Ring of Power that "In The Whiteness Blinds Them"?

Blogger Demonic Professor El September 23, 2016 7:47 AM  

Addendum: I'm mocking our adversaries and their insipid rhetoric and tactics.

Blogger VD September 23, 2016 7:50 AM  

Greg Johnson's view on what he meant are in an article called "The Alt Right Means White Nationalism ... or Nothing At All" that he wrote in response to Hillary Clinton's speech.

Yes, I read that. It doesn't clarify the distinction between the two interpretations I mentioned. Indeed, it even underlines the fact that Alt-Right is not nothing but white nationalism.

The original concept of the Alternative Right emerged from paleoconservatism.

Greg's attempt to redefine the Alt-Right is based on a legitimate concern about entryism and Tea Party-style cooption. But all it would accomplish is to guarantee that the white nationalists will lose the brand to the big tent Alt-Righters.

It's no different than calling blacks "African-Americans". The map doesn't matter. The TERRITORY matters. Sooner or later, reality always trumps perception.

Blogger Old Ez September 23, 2016 7:52 AM  

"I would propose rather than "Alt-Lite groups", the top six phalanxes represent intellectual strains, from Stormfront to NPI and the Dread Ilk."

It would be better to change "Stormfront" to read "Daily Stormer." There are virtually no visible Stormfront types in the Alt Right (they constantly attack the AltRight for not being hard-core enough - anyone who has been involved in the formal Alt Right for more than a few months can confirm that). But The "Daily Stormer" type is a major component. And "Daily Stormer" and "Stormfront" are two entirely different things.

Blogger Samuel Nock September 23, 2016 7:56 AM  

@26

"The map doesn't matter. The TERRITORY matters."

Totally agree. That's why your taxonomies and descriptions are always so helpful: you focus on the territory.

Blogger VD September 23, 2016 7:56 AM  

It would be better to change "Stormfront" to read "Daily Stormer."

Fine by me. I don't actually pay very much attention to the various strains of it. My knowledge is pretty much limited to Greg, Richard, the TRS guys, and Red Ice.

I have a few other things to occupy my time these days.

Blogger Old Ez September 23, 2016 7:57 AM  

Re: picking six leaders, absolutely horrible idea. But if you insist: Lawrence Murray, Greg Hood, Andrew Anglin, Kevin MacDonald, Richard Spencer, and SeventhSon/Mike Enoch

Blogger Whisker biscuit September 23, 2016 7:58 AM  

Milo is really good, but his drag queen stuff is not playing well with some of his followers--at least on FB.

Blogger Nate September 23, 2016 8:04 AM  

Assigning the phalanxes individual names provides the media with actual targets to focus on.

Broad groups... not individuals. because Gamergate

Blogger Ben Sanderson September 23, 2016 8:09 AM  

I couldn't give a tinker's damn if I'm outnumbered 100 to 1. It's the message that counts. I'm not looking to defeat my enemy in my lifetime, so I don't need allies that are actually entryists. My enemy are the Jews; they are the ones with power, and they are the ones who want a multicultural stew. They are the ones who want whites to live in a state of dhimmitude. It is true, the leftist program of feminism and gay rights is annoying, but they are merely pawns. I want the Queen, and then I can strike the King. Perhaps that is the real issue. The Alt Light thinks Milo's enemies are the real enemies: feminists, marxists etc. And then after they are defeated we can live in a libertarian paradise. That is not white nationalism ... it's not even related. I want to behead the Jew at the top of the pyramid. I don't want the orc at the bottom of the pyramid carrying out the Jew's orders.

Blogger VD September 23, 2016 8:17 AM  

Broad groups... not individuals. because Gamergate

Good point. So, there is NPI, Daily Stormer, TRS, Counter-Currents, and what else?

Blogger VD September 23, 2016 8:19 AM  

I couldn't give a tinker's damn if I'm outnumbered 100 to 1. It's the message that counts. I'm not looking to defeat my enemy in my lifetime, so I don't need allies that are actually entryists.

You're missing the point. If you are willing to abjure ALL allies for fear that someone, at some point, is an entryist, you're irrelevant.

Case in point: why are you even commenting here? I'm not influenced by you. You're not going to convince any of the VFM or the Dread Ilk either. What exactly are you hoping to accomplish?

Blogger The Kurgan September 23, 2016 8:36 AM  

Why, Ben hopes to lose nobly of course

Blogger Mr.MantraMan September 23, 2016 8:37 AM  

WN has done squat, doubt me ask them for that super secret list of accomplishments.

Blogger The Kurgan September 23, 2016 8:39 AM  

VD,
Not sure how relevant it is but I think the size of each branch is wrong. I'd estimate the Alt-white to be only about 10% of the Alt-right and the Alt-lite to be maybe 10 times the size of the Alt-Right but dispersive in its pulling efforts (so, rightly not tied to ropes).
The Alt-West seems to me to be the strongest branch within the Alt-Right.

Blogger Cerdic Ricing September 23, 2016 8:44 AM  

I couldn't give a tinker's damn if I'm outnumbered 100 to 1. It's the message that counts. I'm not looking to defeat my enemy in my lifetime, so I don't need allies that are actually entryists.

This enemy is about to defeat us if we keep waiting around forever, so I highly recommend some degree of urgency. Your message is being wasted. I know I care little about ideological purity, and more about results. Maintaining ideological purity is not more important than succeeding. I don't care if the allies have some differences, so long as allying with them gets me results. We need to care that entryists don't take over, but I'm not willing to eschew allies. The definition of ally shows that we regard them as an outside group.

In chess, you have to take a few pawns before you take the king. You also aren't going to do too well if you don't have any pawns of your own.

Anonymous Onlooker September 23, 2016 8:54 AM  

@39 Cerdic Ricing wrote:This enemy is about to defeat us if we keep waiting around forever, so I highly recommend some degree of urgency.

Indeed. Looking out from the parapets at the horizon and strategizing while the horde is climbing the walls in numbers is foolish.

We have to stop the bleeding first or we're doomed. I've finally woken up to that, I sure hope those who've been aware of the problem for far longer can do so too.

Anonymous UF September 23, 2016 9:00 AM  

Takimag? For the lulz, Mizzou

Anonymous trequar September 23, 2016 9:02 AM  

Alt-West=multi-pronged while Alt-White is single-issue.

And yeah, Vox is the leader of the Alt-West. Maybe he's not a visible showman (like Milo) but he's clearly the giant.

Anonymous Onlooker September 23, 2016 9:07 AM  

OT: This needs to catch fire: https://ageofshitlords.com/4chan-pol-launching-operation-google/

Anonymous Whitey Whiteman III September 23, 2016 9:11 AM  

"What about Jonah Goldberg for the big LULZ? Or Cenk Uygur?"


Jews and Shitskins for Hitler Faction

Blogger Nate September 23, 2016 9:16 AM  

"What exactly are you hoping to accomplish?"

He's hoping some other loser will see his comment and think he's super hardcore.

Blogger Cerdic Ricing September 23, 2016 9:20 AM  

Onlooker wrote:Indeed. Looking out from the parapets at the horizon and strategizing while the horde is climbing the walls in numbers is foolish.

For this, it's more like the horde is already in the castle and you're strategizing about how to keep them from scaling the walls.

Those who've been aware for longer need to realize they need to act fast. Many of them have been biding their time, but don't seem to realize there isn't much of that left. Ideological purity and all are luxuries of those with time and those not in danger, and we have neither of those two luxuries.

Anonymous ZhukovG September 23, 2016 9:21 AM  

Vox is not the leader, Vox is not White. We are like the Montagnards. Vox is that nice American guy with the Green Beret on his head teaching us to fight the VC.

Blogger FrankNorman September 23, 2016 9:32 AM  

47. ZhukovG September 23, 2016 9:21 AM

Vox is not the leader, Vox is not White. We are like the Montagnards. Vox is that nice American guy with the Green Beret on his head teaching us to fight the VC.


Would someone have to be White in order to lead the Alt-West?

Blogger Silly But True September 23, 2016 9:34 AM  

@14 taking it further.

Multiple lists. Three lists for the conservative elites who worship Reagan and Bush: Krauthammer, Doug Murray, and David Frump.
Seven lists for the left's secret kings winning all alone.
Nine for all the cucks who cried "Never Trump"
One for the dark lord on his dark throne.

The leader of the alt-right should be Pepe. Or whichever lunatic speechwriter was responsible for making Pepe all powerful in Clinton's alt-right speech: Dan Schwerin? Or Nick Merrill?

Leader of the alt-white should be Olivia Nuzzi.

Better yet, go with the multiple list angle, and leak one to gullible press. Proving it has to be the real alt-right leadership memo, because it was safeguarded by several important Rare Pepes, which they won't even understand. Then we'll get an entertaining article about how the real currency and leadership choosing method of the alt-right is Rare Pepe collections.

Given the laziness of media these days, it wouldn't surprise me if Nuzzi herself writes the article naming herself as leader of the alt-white in the rush to break the leaked information.

Silly But True

Anonymous Onlooker September 23, 2016 9:35 AM  

@ 46 Cerdic Ricing wrote:
For this, it's more like the horde is already in the castle and you're strategizing about how to keep them from scaling the walls.


Yep, you're right. Much more urgent than my metaphor conveyed.

Blogger Old Ez September 23, 2016 9:39 AM  

"I'd estimate the Alt-white to be only about 10% of the Alt-right and the Alt-lite to be maybe 10 times the size of the Alt-Right"

It really is amazing to me that people who don't know the first thing about the Alt Right and only ever heard of it a few weeks ago are now posturing as experts on it.

Anonymous ZhukovG September 23, 2016 9:42 AM  

While at this stage I don't think we should present any clear targets...I mean leaders. A leader of the Alt-Right(West)should be White. But not all Whites qualify. A Russian is White, but they are not of the West.

So no Russian leaders. Besides Russia's Alt-Right was already at victorious and Putin is their leader. We can learn from them.

Blogger Old Ez September 23, 2016 9:42 AM  

"Alt-West=multi-pronged while Alt-White is single-issue."

Again, it is clear to anyone who has been involved with the AltRight for more than a few months that the person who made this statement is radically misinformed about the AltRight. People should spend a few months learning about this "AltRight" thing they've just discovered before they make these kinds of bonehead statements about. I'm seriously embarrassed for you friend.

Anonymous Whitey Whiteman III September 23, 2016 9:46 AM  

Before Hillary named the Al-Right and the scramble to define it ramped up, I had always thought of it as a big umbrella group containing everyone from paleocons (like Buchanan) to HBDers of the Sailersphere to the various "Men's" factions (Roosh, Roissy, etc.) to Neoreaction (Moldbug) to WN/NatSoc to /pol/ to what is now "Alt-West" to now "Alt-Lite (Trump, Milo, Breidbart).

I lean toward WN/NatSoc, but I 100% agree with the big tent, no enemies on/to the right idea. Plenty of enemies without fighting each other.

But, the White Nationalist side of really does not like the big tent idea at all for Alt-Right. They are really, really adamant on this. A few of them have posted on your threads on this, but it is basically all of them who view it this way. Milo, being a 'degenerate, coal-burning, kike faggot' is particularly egregious in their eyes, but the whole "entryism" thing is a major concern.

/pol/ doesn't even like being called Alt-Right at all. They are just /pol/.

And, neither of them are going to change on this.

Anyway, I guess the point is that what you are doing with trying to define the factions and maintain the tent as big as possible is the best that can be done.

It would be nice if the WN/NatSoc side would accept Alt-White or Alt-Reich instead of trying to own Alt-Right, but that is very unlikely as long as there is still a viable fight for it. Eventually the numbers will ensure that the term will come to mean at least as far center as "Alt-West", if not "Alt-Lite" (because of the media presence of Milo, Trump, and Breidbart.)

Anyway, I would suggest just continue to not attack them, while ignoring their attacks as much as possible.

The Alt-White/Alt-Reich side is great for moving the Overton Window and mainting "purity"/keeping things from inevitably sliding center/left.

/pol/ is just gonna /pol/, regardless.

And, what you are and have been doing is great for overall numbers, which is 100% necessary.

tl:dr -- just ignore each other :)

Blogger VD September 23, 2016 10:00 AM  

It really is amazing to me that people who don't know the first thing about the Alt Right and only ever heard of it a few weeks ago are now posturing as experts on it.

It's amazing to me that people like you don't understand that people have been involved in the Alt-Right long before it was CALLED the Alt-Right.

You're confusing the map with the territory.

Anonymous Ahenobarbus September 23, 2016 10:02 AM  

If I may be not-so-humble and present my own explanation of the Alt-Right. The difference in my approach is that I make the assumption that method > finding. The danger of equating the Alt-Right with certain conclusions from certain investigations, is that it may harden into unquestionable dogma, whereas it's simply what one will reasonably find by lighting a torch around certain topics. The Alt-Right is the torch, what it reflects is accidental.

The origin of the Alt-Right is curiosity.

The Alt-Right is about a search for the truth, and about creating a better society. Nothing more, nothing less.

In our age, as in every age, there are certain truths that are banned, hidden, falsified and ignored by those in power.

The Alt-Right is centered around understanding those dangerous, forbidden truths.

However, as it is also a political movement, it seeks not merely to grasp, but to change society into something better.

From this, everything follows.

One implication is that the Alt-Right contains just about every non-mainstream rightwing strain of thought, although some more than others.

It may contain mainstream and leftwing ideas in the degree to which those ideas are perceived to be true.

The ability to entertain ideas that are taboo separates people who can be said to belong to the Alt-Right, and those who don't belong to it.

Some strains of thought are more central, and this is correlated to how suppressed they are in the mainstream.

For example, White identity and White Nationalism, while being subsets of the Alt-Right, are highly central. Other central pillars include knowledge about race and ethnicity.

"Traditional values", for example, are part of Alt-Right thought, although not as central due to them being less controversal.

The Alt-Right is Promethean.

Blogger Ben Sanderson September 23, 2016 10:06 AM  

To answer your question, I'm not seeking influence, and I do apologize for my terse delivery. I'm just here to clarify that there can be no coalition-building with WN. It's a singular movement. The goal is an ethnostate. If there are to be allies, then they will be with organizations like the PLO, or any nation in search of statehood.

Blogger Old Ez September 23, 2016 10:11 AM  

"You're confusing the map with the territory." - Maybe, but there are a lot of comments here that fundamentally misrepresent or misunderstand the AltRight. How does anyone - AltRight/White/West/Whatever - benefit from misrepresentation, innocent or otherwise? Even if some people unfortunately view white nationalists as a drag on the very movement that they themselves created, isn't in those persons' interest to properly *understand* what and who they are opposing? And I fully appreciate that VD is not promoting any kind of opposition to white nationalism or the "AltWhite" and that VD is solely concerned with getting AltWhite to stop grimacing at AltLite - I get that 100% and agree 100%. But the fact is that white nationalism makes a lot of prospective AltLites viscerally uncomfortable and as a result (here's the rub:) *they are not interested in understanding it*, but only in marginalizing it (witness comments above about how WN's are "10%" of the AltRight. Ha!). That's not productive for anyone, least of all the AltLite, because any attempt to marginalize WN's will very quickly reveal that they are not only the beating heart and soul of the AltRight, they are by far the numerical majority.

Blogger VD September 23, 2016 10:12 AM  

But, the White Nationalist side of really does not like the big tent idea at all for Alt-Right. They are really, really adamant on this. A few of them have posted on your threads on this, but it is basically all of them who view it this way.

That's fine. Then they can call themselves White Nationalists or Alt-White or anything else they want. But they won't be able to coopt the term "Alt-Right" or "Alternative Right" no matter how much they'd like to do so.

Read Greg Johnson's piece. They are the party attempting to coopt and monopolize it. Not us. And they won't be successful. Frankly, Milo has a better chance of being anointed the leader of the Alt-Right than any of them do.

If they don't accept the Big Tent definition, they'll abjure the term within months.

Anonymous trequar September 23, 2016 10:17 AM  

@53 Old Ez

Read the statement again friendo. I've been around in these parts for 15 years.

Alt-right was a veiled attempt to bring people toward a new brand of White Nationalism (as explained by Spencer) but in doing so, we now have people with differing visions/methods on how to shape the Western/White world... thus the distinctions.

Blogger Sheila4g September 23, 2016 10:17 AM  

@48 Frank Norman: "Would someone have to be White in order to lead the Alt-West?"

Re-read Vox's 16 points. Alt West is not, in and of itself, White nationalism, but it explicitly states the need to secure the future of the White race and its progeny. Others can be allies or supporters or even merely fellow travelers, but Alt-West includes White nationalism or it is not Alt West. No branch of the Alt Right has "a" leader; all have excellent theorists and varying degrees of strategists and multi-pronged, mixed streams of followers.

Blogger Phillip George September 23, 2016 10:20 AM  

confusing the map for the territory.

well said.

Describing stuff that doesn't have a name yet.


Mores the point today was the Equinox. Solid science shouldn't be passed up. Happy Fall to the North, Happy Spring to the South.

From Egypt hieroglyphs to Most Worshipful Grand High Master of the Royal Order of Alt Right Sympathizers. It's always been worship.
the Scarab beetle, the Jackal head, the bid G, the delusions of progressives, suggest it's just back to Jesus time. Build a pyramid or write a blog. Through time space geographic language division, worship. Kills all opposition.

So what's Alt- ,,,, the search for integrity in worship.

Blogger Samuel Nock September 23, 2016 10:25 AM  

@59

I have a prediction, which is that those betting against VD's prediction are going to be wrong.

VD sees where things are going more clearly than anyone I have ever encountered. I suppose it's one of the benefits of being a super-intelligence.

Anonymous Rolf September 23, 2016 10:26 AM  

I am shocked that nobody has yet come up with a the theme song, sung to the tune of Kenny Loggins I'm Alright
"I'm Alt-Right
Nobody worry 'bout me
Why you got to gimme a fight?
Can't you just let it be?

I'm Alt-Right
Don't nobody worry 'bout me
You got to gimme a fight
Why don't you just let me be

Blogger slarrow September 23, 2016 10:32 AM  

Milo clearly doesn't belong in any of the spots on the graphic. He's the herald, walking in front and calling attention to the procession. He's not pulling the Alt-Right vehicle, but the crowd is parting for him in a way it might not for the others involved.

Anonymous Stirner September 23, 2016 10:36 AM  

For those still thinking that the WN position is a mere 10% of the Alt Right, compare the traffic of the Daily Stormer with Vox's Site:

https://www.similarweb.com/website/voxday.blogspot.com?competitors=dailystormer.com

Blogger Old Ez September 23, 2016 10:40 AM  

@60, re: "Alt-White is single-issue" - Actually, you could be right about this - because I frankly know nothing about the "AltWhite" and it appears to me that the only place the "AltWhite" exists is in the minds of several commentors on Vox Popoli. Everyone else just calls it the "Alt Right". This whole "AltX,Y,Z" thing is happening now because there are people that really, really like what the AltRight/White is doing, but are not comfortable with the most fundamental principle of the Alt Right: white racial consciousness. And to be clear, I don't have a problem with that. I think its great that we have all these people wanting to support and be a part of the AltRight - and as long as they don't try strip the Alt Right ideology of its core element - white racial consciousness - they and their contributions should be welcomed by everyone. My position is fundamentally the same as VD's, I just object to the needless multiplication of "Alts" which in my view amounts to little more than an attempt to jump on a brand and use it to sell a different product. Kind of like pyrex versus PYREX™.

Anonymous Ahenobarbus September 23, 2016 10:40 AM  

I'd like to address the Alt-White/White Nationalism thing, as it has bugged me since I read Greg Johnson's article where he tried to push the idea that the Alt-Right = White Nationalism. I prefer to lurk, but this triggered me. I think Greg is one of the most articulate thinkers in the Alt-Right, but he's obviously not the best at marketing.

First of all, White Nationalism does NOT equal the Alt-Right. White Nationalism is a subset of the Alt-Right, which is a big tent consisting of basically every non-mainstream rightwing philosophy that has someone representing it. I may go so far as to say that White Nationalism is one of the backbones of the Alt-Right. But making it the poster boy by spreading the idea that Alt-Right is defined as White Nationalism is incorrect, and furthermore, it's like putting the cart before the horse.

White Nationalism has a purpose, but as a brand and marketing tool it's counter-productive.
The purpose of White Nationalism is to prevent the Alt-Right from compromising too much, from sliding too much to the left, from watering down its message. That is a very important task, indeed. As a comparison, I question if the Milos of the world have anything at all to contribute. After all, the Alt-Right have far, far loftier goals than "being naughty on the interweb", which is basically how Milo tries to define it. If not for the White Nationalists, the Milos might already have co-opted the movement. But White Nationalists still need to get real. While I would never disavow those to the right of me, I can give them a constructive kick to the arse.

Because in the real world you have to be practical. You have to make alliances. You have to make concessions. You need to begin with the present situation and take proper steps in the right direction. You have to walk a tight-rope between what's possible and what's ideal. Otherwise, you won't get any results, and results are ultimately what matters. Everything else is wankery.

Why is White Nationalism counter-productive? Because its weak arguments threaten to destroy its strong arguments. Their ideal is to have white homelands. But most normal people would probably rather let EVERY immigrant stay in Western countries, than to make them ALL leave. People would not understand why their well-behaving, productive friends of color should leave, yet White Nationalists propagate that only whites, maybe only whites of certain ethnic groups, should be allowed to stay in Western countries. I'm not saying the argument necessarily is wrong, only that it's weak. Most importantly, it's an effective way of making enemies of people that could otherwise be allies.

However, we COULD convince a critical mass of people that SOME immigrant groups should repatriate, such as criminals, illegals, welfare-beneficiaries, muslims, gypsies, etc. And that would go a long way towards stopping the decline.

Look, Western Civilization is sick. We're being invaded. Unlike "White Genocide" which is an abstraction, deterioration is a daily fact. I see it when I look out my window. I read about it every day on alternative news sites. Even the MSM can't hide it anymore.

Now is not the time to gloriously fap to the vision of some hypothetic, future utopia. Now is the time to forge alliances and drive out the r-selected untermenschen that have festered in our lands, and wrest control from our semitic overlords and their gentile enablers.

The time for White Nationalism may eventually come, but it is not this day.

In other words, do not let perfection be the enemy of the good.

Blogger Samuel Nock September 23, 2016 10:47 AM  

@64

There were those who read a great deal into the fact that the song that played after Trump finished his acceptance speech at the RNC was "All Right Now" by one-hit wonders Free. And they may be on to something.

Blogger Old Ez September 23, 2016 10:48 AM  

White Nationalism is *not* the core element of the AltRight, but white racial consciousness is, and anyone concerned to deny that is either ignorant of the movement or has malevolent intentions toward it.

Blogger Robert What? September 23, 2016 10:49 AM  

Short of a total collapse there will be no America again that is 90% white. And maybe not even then. So the Alt-White is a dead end. The best that can be hoped for, post collapse, is a breaking up of the US with different sections going to different ethnic groups.

Anonymous ZhukovG September 23, 2016 10:50 AM  

I can’t help but think that the reason for Alt-White resistance to the idea of the Alt-West or Big Tent, what have you. Is that, yes they want a White Ethno-State; but not just any White Ethno-State. They specifically want their vision of a White Ethno-State.

They fear, not unreasonably, that in success; the Alt-Right may drive a return to an Eisenhoweresque America and call it a day. Even I would call that mostly a win. Though I would fear for its staying power.

But for the Alt-White it would be the same as defeat.

Anonymous Whitey Whiteman III September 23, 2016 10:56 AM  

"For those still thinking that the WN position is a mere 10% of the Alt Right, compare the traffic of the Daily Stormer with Vox's Site:"


This is silly.

Compare the traffic of DS with /pol/, reddit, twitter, and Breidbart.

Not to mention all of the places where people are not at all redpilled, yet.

That is where the numbers which dwarf White Nationaliost numbers will come from.

/pol/, DS, and TRS are great at taking people straight from normie to nazi, but for most people, it is going to be a progression from "Alt-Lite" to "Alt-West" to hopefully large numbers of the "Alt-White" version of Alt-Right.

Anonymous Takin' a Deplorable Look September 23, 2016 11:00 AM  

"Look, Western Civilization is sick. We're being invaded. Unlike "White Genocide" which is an abstraction, deterioration is a daily fact. I see it when I look out my window. I read about it every day on alternative news sites. Even the MSM can't hide it anymore."

Indeed they can't. Nancy Isenberg's book, "White Trash" remains a best-selling with four star reviews. The Heroin, meth, alcohol and pill epidemic affects virtually everyone who lives in white America. We've gone to funerals of those who've OD and it's primarily folks between 18-45 in age. Suicides by other means such as guns, hangings, etc are also way up.

Right now, even the middle to upper class white strivers have that uneasy feeling all is not quite right.

http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/books/2016/06/white_trash_the_400_year_untold_history_of_class_in_america_by_nancy_isenberg.html

Blogger Old Ez September 23, 2016 11:03 AM  

@71 "Short of a total collapse there will be no America again that is 90% white. And maybe not even then. So the Alt-White is a dead end. The best that can be hoped for, post collapse, is a breaking up of the US with different sections going to different ethnic groups."

Here again, I'm sorry to say, we have gross ignorance on display. The "AltWhite" is the *one* segment of the AltRight that consistently and vocally calls for Balkanization of the US! You're killing me, fam!

Anonymous ZhukovG September 23, 2016 11:11 AM  

@76 Yes, I have said before that we, of the Alt-West, must be ready to give up our nostalgia for the American Union.

A collection of White and other Ethno-States may be the only way to avoid excessive bloodshed.

Anonymous mature craig September 23, 2016 11:11 AM  

Lol @ Whitey Whiteman III

Anonymous User September 23, 2016 11:12 AM  

A lot of this comes down to the JQ. Most people are so conditioned that the fnords come for them just for thinking about it, let alone talking about it. Loosely, the alt-light ignores it, the alt-west thinks about it, and the alt-white thinks it's the root cause of our current woes and makes plenty lf noise about it.

Anonymous Gen. Kong September 23, 2016 11:23 AM  

I especially like the idea of Pharaoh Pepe. Whenever (((media))) axes another of their lying 'questions', just point to the Pharaoh and say "ask him."

Blogger Old Ez September 23, 2016 11:28 AM  

@77 "Yes, I have said before that we, of the Alt-West, must be ready to give up our nostalgia for the American Union.

A collection of White and other Ethno-States may be the only way to avoid excessive bloodshed."

So where exactly is your disagreement with the "AltWhite" which necessitates this proliferating Alt-nomenclature?

Anonymous User September 23, 2016 11:32 AM  

The Spaniards didn't give up on Iberia. This talk of giving up our birthright is pure defeatism and a sign that the demoralization program has worked on anyone who spouts it.

Blogger JaimeInTexas September 23, 2016 11:35 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger JaimeInTexas September 23, 2016 11:36 AM  

"I was primarily focused on symbolically distilling out some of the identity politics/tactics of the Alt-Right: ...
- Opposes the ideas of Equality, Diversity, Tolerance, Progress, Control ..."

Tolerance? I guess it all depends on what it is meant by it and in which arena.

Blogger VD September 23, 2016 11:42 AM  

For those still thinking that the WN position is a mere 10% of the Alt Right, compare the traffic of the Daily Stormer with Vox's Site:

You make my point. That's the biggest Alt-White site versus just one of my personal blogs. And I'm not as popular as Mike Cernovich or Stefan Molyneux, just to name two guys at the very least sympathetic to the Alt-Right.

Blogger VD September 23, 2016 11:43 AM  

So where exactly is your disagreement with the "AltWhite" which necessitates this proliferating Alt-nomenclature?

The Alt-West has other interests than White Nationalism. We are Western Civilizationists, not White Nationalists. The European nations are merely one component of Western Civilization, they are not the West in and of themselves.

Blogger Old Ez September 23, 2016 11:46 AM  

"The Alt-West has other interests than White Nationalism."

Ditto AltRight, so I have to ask again, why the need to separate? Would you at least agree that "'white' racial consciousness" is the core of *any* of these proposed Alt-ideologies? If not, are you arguing that "West"=/="White"?

Blogger praetorian September 23, 2016 11:48 AM  

Allow me to demonstrate the white nationalism is not 100% coincident with the Alt-Right. Consider a man who wishes independence for his southern state, a return to 1965 demographics, explicit Christendom and the re-institution of many of the pre-civil rights restrictions on negros.

This man is not a white nationalist by most fair definitions, but he is clearly a member of the alternative right.

I have always admired and increasingly agree with Greg Johnson, but I would put the line at "Does not reject White Nationalism" not at "Is a White Nationalist".

In any event, if my experience is anything to go by (and, watching TRS over the last few years and even Vox on the JQ, it appears it is a process) then many people who are currently in the "Does not reject" camp will be in the "Is a" camp in a few more years. Those already in would be best focused on enabling that dynamic, rather than pushing them away.

(Greg often, if not always, does a very good job of this, which is very admirable given how lonely and long his battle has been, and how many folks on our side have mocked, dismissed and rejected him.)

Blogger praetorian September 23, 2016 11:51 AM  

Here is some recent work involving Greg on the JQ, quite well done and exactly along the lines I'm talking about:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKy3fCvMz-8

Now is not the time for purging heretics.

That comes later.

Anonymous Bobby Farr September 23, 2016 11:54 AM  

Until the likes of the Bushes, Paul Ryan, NRO, Erick Erickson are chased from the field and no longer perceived by the public as right wing, it would seem focusing on divisions within the actual right may be a tad premature.

Anonymous trequar September 23, 2016 12:00 PM  

@70 Old Ez

Greg Johnson, TRS, Daily Stormer, all say it is (AR=WN). You should take it up with them. I'm guessing that a large reason for coming up with these sub-factional titles is simply to avoid the infighting and confusion.

Look, I could go into a long post about what alt-right really is, and how it came about... having been a long time reader/listener of Radix, AlternativeRight, TRS, Stormer, Vox, CounterCurrents, Bowden, Infowars, Molyneux, Duke, Renegade, Sailer and every other hub you could imagine. Needless to say, having a defined outlook is pretty important and the multiplications is quite important.

Blogger VD September 23, 2016 12:01 PM  

Ditto AltRight, so I have to ask again, why the need to separate? Would you at least agree that "'white' racial consciousness" is the core of *any* of these proposed Alt-ideologies? If not, are you arguing that "West"=/="White"?

We have been repeatedly informed that "Alt-Right" is for whites only, is only white nationalism and nothing but white nationalism. That is historically false and is too limited to represent me or the majority of my readers. Hence the need to distinguish that "Alt-Right" from our "Alt-Right", even if we are both diametrically opposed to the Left and what passes for the mainstream Right.

I like Greg. I respect him. The same for Richard. We are all more or less in accord with regards to the disastrous current situation. But I am not them and they are not me. Which is fine. I specifically chose to identify as Alt-West in order to respect those differences rather than force them to answer for me.

Anonymous zack September 23, 2016 12:05 PM  

I'm sorry if this comes off as antagonistic but so much of what I have read here seems to be little more than intellectual masturbation. We seem to forget that tribalism or ethnic cooperation is the core of humanity. The United States has always been a white nation where the minorities were mostly segregated and at best tolerated. White people did not have to interact with the non-whites in any meaningful sense. Now that whites are being forced to interact with them we can see the strain it puts on the society. White people, for the most part, don't like it. They will tolerate a few magic negroes here and there but when saturation hits a certain point they usually flee if at all possible. This also goes for all the races, the vast majority will only accept being with their own kind. I don't see how it is possible for the alt-right to continue if we don't recognize that simple fact. We either fight for the white ethno-state we want or we balkanize and the United States as we know it simply will no longer exist. This is the fundamental truth we must all realize. Multicultural states throughout history have always failed without exception and we are witnessing this truth playing out before our eyes. We mustn't delude ourselves into thinking there is any other solution, because there simply is not. I can sympathize with the non-whites who want to wish that we can get along based on ideology, but ideology alone cannot sustain a nation state.

Blogger Old Ez September 23, 2016 12:12 PM  

"We have been repeatedly informed that "Alt-Right" is for whites only, is only white nationalism and nothing but white nationalism." - But you don't believe it, do you? Isn't that the point? I certainly don't believe it, and I'm about as hard-core AltRight/White/DailyStormer as you can get. Greg does not speak for the AltRight/White. Moreover, you *know* that Greg doesn't speak for for the AltRight/White. So what's to be gained by feigning to go along with something you know to be not true (that the AltRight is for whites only)? Wouldn't it be much better to just say, "Greg is wrong"? And I get it: you very justly don't want to be seen or portrayed as trying to muscle-in on the AltRight or influence away from its founding principles, so you're just taking from it what you like and leaving the rest. Again, I think that's great. But it doesn't require splitting the AltRight up into formal factions. I wrack my brain try in good faith, but I just don't see what good could possibly come from it.

"West"=/="White". Yes or no?

Blogger praetorian September 23, 2016 12:16 PM  

Multicultural states throughout history have always failed without exception and we are witnessing this truth playing out before our eyes.

I don't thing anyone disagrees with you on that, although I would point out that uni-cultural states have done a grand job of blowing up as well.

The open questions, in my mind, are around the "cultural" part. I would go two directions with that question:

1) Can a unified culture overcome some amount of racial diversity? If so, how much? How must it be structured?

2) Can race be a unifying enough element for a uniculture on its own? This is where I don't agree with the Spencerian conception of a white empire, spanning Europe. I would say there are unique nations (historical, memetic and genetic) within Europe and each should have its own political system and homeland, even if there is broad cooperation between them. Therefore I would like to see old fashioned nationalism, with lots of white nations, rather than a fourth Reich.

Anonymous Ezekiel Cassandros September 23, 2016 12:25 PM  

"I can’t help but think that the reason for Alt-White resistance to the idea of the Alt-West or Big Tent, what have you. Is that, yes they want a White Ethno-State; but not just any White Ethno-State. They specifically want their vision of a White Ethno-State.

They fear, not unreasonably, that in success; the Alt-Right may drive a return to an Eisenhoweresque America and call it a day. Even I would call that mostly a win. Though I would fear for its staying power.

But for the Alt-White it would be the same as defeat."

You are on to something. It wouldn't be the same as defeat... but "mostly a win" that has no staying power, isn't good enough.

Going back to something that led to where we are here, without dealing with the underlying problems that led from there to here, is a temporary respite.

I'll take it over the imminent rape-genocide of my people, of course.

Anonymous BGKB September 23, 2016 12:27 PM  

Picking a leader, debating over leaders... this is child's play.

So pick a leader and fight other whites instead of jews/dieverse? Got it.

Short of a total collapse there will be no America again that is 90% white.

If the power to die verse cities was all cut off on the same day the free stuff army would only kill white liberals.

Anonymous Casey September 23, 2016 12:35 PM  

I don't think anyone in the Alt-Right is interested in pushing away any potential allies. But I'm not interested in watering down the message to attract any potential allies who refuse to accept white identity politics.

The idea that it's evil to advocate for white culture has to be totally eliminated. If someone is blue pilled to the extent that they can't accept that, they're not ally material.

Anonymous Ezekiel Cassandros September 23, 2016 12:37 PM  

@68 Ahenobarbus
"Why is White Nationalism counter-productive? Because its weak arguments threaten to destroy its strong arguments. Their ideal is to have white homelands. But most normal people would probably rather let EVERY immigrant stay in Western countries, than to make them ALL leave. People would not understand why their well-behaving, productive friends of color should leave, yet White Nationalists propagate that only whites, maybe only whites of certain ethnic groups, should be allowed to stay in Western countries. I'm not saying the argument necessarily is wrong, only that it's weak. Most importantly, it's an effective way of making enemies of people that could otherwise be allies."

Bro do you even Art of the Deal? You're thinking too logically. Extreme rhetoric and positions that rustle people's jimmies cause them to start haggling. The more they argue with us on why their specific friends have to go back, the less they are arguing with us about the rest of the 60 million.

Anonymous zack September 23, 2016 12:40 PM  

@93 1) I doubt a unified culture can over come any amount of racial diversity. If we take the Asians in America as an example we see that even they have historically been considered a 2nd class citizen, and this is despite the fact that they have performed well and have contributed to United States. And as their numbers grow in communities, this creates conflict with whites and blacks who already live there. The same can be said for the increase of hispanics in the United States. Our cities make a claim about being diverse yet the segregatation of these cities is very common, people will always end up living with their own if given the choice.

2) I do think race will be a unifying element as we move forward. As the amount of people on this planet increases we will see further conflict regarded races and even nation states. We can see this now with the expanse of China into the south eastern China sea. This growth in people of different races will most likely increase the tribalism of the races as a whole. Whites will most likely respond with greater cooperation, to offset the growing power of nations such as China and India. Right now the globalists are trying their hardest through economic means to unite the world, but this will fail as did the British attempt at a similar structure during the 1800's.

Blogger Were-Puppy September 23, 2016 12:44 PM  

@16 VD

"Of course, he is only part-white and does not explicitly push a pro-white or pro-Western agenda (though he comes close.)"
---

I quit reading it at that part.

Anonymous Casey September 23, 2016 12:44 PM  

I'm willing to let this Korean woman hang around. She's got nerve.

http://www.ajc.com/news/news/crime-law/video-shows-homeowner-firing-several-shots-at-intr/nsdGQ/

Blogger Were-Puppy September 23, 2016 12:48 PM  

@21 Benjamin Kraft
White nationalism is one aspect.
Opposition to Marxism of every kind is another aspect.
---

I suspect this is where a bunch of the WN go off the rails. Because of their love affair with socialism of a certain variety.

Anonymous User September 23, 2016 12:55 PM  

White nationalism has plenty of problems, not the least of which is that there is no white nation and white people by and large like fighting with each other as much as cooperating.

I believe the alt-right should be understood as an American movement. Europe doesn't need an alt right. Europeans are all already ethnic and racial realists. They can get over their present cuck fetish or not, I don't really care. But no matter what, every European knows exactly what their identity is.

Americans on the other hand have had their identity undermined and practically destroyed. It is depressingly common to hear Americans say they have no identity or that America doesn't have any culture. This spiritual assault on the American people has to be repelled for the historical American nations to persist in the mutually beneficial union that has served us these past centuries.

Trying to broaden this movement to the entire west is dilutive and counterproductive. There are some basic strategies that all westerners should apply like finding a nice western girl and knocking her up at least 5 times, but ideologically and culturally the problem Americans face is distinctively American.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash September 23, 2016 12:55 PM  

FrankNorman wrote:Would someone have to be White in order to lead the Alt-West?
Has there been, since Edward II, an English king of England?

Anonymous Ironsides September 23, 2016 1:08 PM  

IMO, Alt-Right is not the TOP of the conceptual pyramid. At the top is Ethno-Nationalism. Most of the world still plays by this rule; the white countries don't. The Alt-Right is a white country phenomenon attempting to restore the normal ethno-nationalism that characterized western history up until 1965, and the rest of the world up until 2016.

The rest of the world still believes China for Chinese, Japan for Japanese, Somalia for Somalians, Saudi Arabia for Arabs, Iran for Iranians, and so on. Ethno-nationalism is the survival mechanism of all races/tribes/"nations," for lack of a better term.

In my view, the Alt-Right is the natural ethnonationalism of ALL humanity attempting to MANIFEST ITSELF AGAIN among whites to avert extinction.

I can't see any other goal so definitive, or so worthy. Racial survival is upstream in the urgency department from everything else: culture, religion, language, what have you. Next is cultural survival: German, French, Italian, American, English, etc. Both are important, but culture can't survive without racial survival, period. You can't have Japanese culture if Asians don't exist. You can't have American or German culture if Whites don't exist.

The rest of the world clearly still has something that the whites don't have. We see ethno-nationalist states everywhere. Is it religion? I don't think so so. Those states are Christian, atheist, muslime, buddhist, what have you. Similarly, there are all political systems -- republics, monarchies, dictatorships, pure chaos (e.g. Somalia).

What all those countries have that the white countries don't is that their women are still subordinate to their men. They may have the vote, but the men, culturally, still run things. Men are instinctive defenders, creators of the tribe and nation. Women want everyone to be friends. Even if those everybodies are totally alien, hostile people who want to take over new territory.

So, the westerners made their women totally independent from men. At the same time, we got successive massive Communist agitprop attacks, first the Frankfurt School, then the KGB's large-scale cultural attacks in the 1960s. Women went to college at an age their designed to be impressionable in order to bond onto a male, and instead bonded onto Marxism. Now they're like a permanent, massive fifth column voting for whatever slimebucket multiculti white-hating traitor promises love and peace and equality and unicorns farting out rainbows of gender-neutral happiness.

If women had stayed under the male thumb (nicely) in the West, and hadn't gotten the goddamn vote, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. The thought of turning Germany into Algeria or England into Somalia or the U.S. into the entire frickin' world would be as alien as it was to Hitler or Churchill or Teddy Roosevelt.

Eastern Europe and Russia are still pretty ethno-centric and racially confident, despite 70 years of atheist communism, because those commies were a bunch of male chauvanist pigs who knew enough to keep male dominance over society.

We've been pussy-whipped and wench-rolled. Ethnonationalism results naturally from male sociocultural dominance, whether it's in Tuttlingen, Tijuana, or Tierra del Fuego.

To sum up:

1. Ethnonationalism is the natural state of humans; it is the sole method of racial survival.

2. Alt-Right thinking is ultimately an attempt to restore ethnonationalism to the west in order to survive.

3. The mechanism permitting ethnonationalism throughout history, and through most of the current world outside the western white countries, is male socio-cultural dominance.

The rest is just chin music. .

Blogger Snidely Whiplash September 23, 2016 1:12 PM  

The phalages at the top should represent intellectual strains, not individuals
I'd propose:
Nationalism
Race Realism/Race Consciousness
Patriarchy/Masculinity
Homogeneous Communities
White Babies/14 Words
Victory

Anonymous User September 23, 2016 1:17 PM  

Good thinking Ironsides, but maybe the problem isn't what the suffering western nations lack, but rather what they have. The Japanese, Chinese, and even Russians don't have an inimical foreign minority that controls over half their national wealth.

Blogger VD September 23, 2016 1:29 PM  

But it doesn't require splitting the AltRight up into formal factions. I wrack my brain try in good faith, but I just don't see what good could possibly come from it.

It avoids struggling for control. It allows people to focus on their priorities.

Look how many people wanted to jump up and declare themselves "a leader" of the Alt-Right as soon as that became a theoretically desirable thing. I've seen at least five or six people doing that, to say nothing of all the various folks anointing an improbable series of people from Milo to me.

One thing I learned from GamerGate is that the broader the umbrella was, the more clearly people understood that there were various factions or strains, and that we all shared common goals, the less likely it was that anyone would quibble over what the One True GamerGate was.

Do there need to be firm boundaries? Yes. That's why I say that Alt-Lite is not Alt-Right, while Alt-West and Alt-White both are.

Remember, this is taxonomy, nothing more. I am merely describing existing differences, I'm not "splitting" anything that isn't already distinct.

Anonymous Ezekiel Cassandros September 23, 2016 1:30 PM  

@Snidely
No JQ? No go.

Combine "Nationalism" with "Homogenous Communities" since they're only different in scale, then add "Go Home, Jew" or related.

Anonymous Ahenobarbus September 23, 2016 1:42 PM  

@97
I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but if the Alt-Right gets divided over it, how could it go home with the masses? As you mention Art of the Deal, A/B testing is also a part of Trump's toolbox.

Anonymous User September 23, 2016 1:55 PM  

Pacing and leading is the most reliable way I've found to uncuck people. It's also what Trump is doing.

Anonymous ZhukovG September 23, 2016 1:59 PM  

I think one big difference between Alt-White and Alt-West is the manner in which the former seems to obsess over the 'Jewish Question'.

Jews are not supermen. They have nothing we gentiles haven't given them. Hell, we even gave them their Ethno-State.

Our enemy is the Globalists, most of which are gentile. Though Jews are overrepresented among them and that is not an insignificant fact.

Once the Globalists are defeated, any power the Jews have will evaporate. Most will self deport, if we let any remain they will have to accept drastically reduced circumstances.

Anonymous Ezekiel Cassandros September 23, 2016 2:08 PM  

@Ahenobarbus

We ARE divided, because we don't agree on everything. But if we all shoot left...

"but if the Alt-Right gets divided over it, how could it go home with the masses?"

Consider how effective the Democrat Vs Republican shell game has been in brainwashing the public into accepting diversity in the name of compassion. "Should we import millions of foreigners and give them free shit forever because it's not fair that they're poor? Or should we import millions of foreigners and give them all of our jobs because it's not fair that their wages are low?"

Whether various flavors of the Alt-Right (wherever you draw the line) like it or want it, we will increasingly be doing the same thing. "Should we keep good relations with Israel after we send all the Jews back? Or should we severely distrust them in perpetuity after we send them all back?"

Anonymous kfg September 23, 2016 2:33 PM  

@108: "Go Home, Jew"

Is implicit in "Homogenous Communities." The JQ is resolved as a corollary without ever actually raising the JQ, which is a tactical advantage.

Anonymous Ahenobarbus September 23, 2016 2:58 PM  

@112
People should do what they believe in. If that happens to be spreading the idea of an ethnostate, or make helicopter-memes, or something else, great. As long as it's not cucking.

However, I believe that it's possible to do harm, even if the intentions are good. Therefore, I also support constructive criticism. I disagree with the "don't punch to the right"-meme. I punch to the right (WN, 1488) and to the left (Alt-Light) so they can improve, but I save my bullets for the enemy.

Anonymous User September 23, 2016 3:20 PM  

It's my limited impression that typical black Americans don't give a hoot about holocaustianity. Can anyone with better knowledge correct or corroborate?

Anonymous ZhukovG September 23, 2016 3:31 PM  

@User, given the state of inner city schools a Black person is doing well to spell their name by the time they leave High School.

But no, Blacks don't like Jews very much. Or Hispanics. Or Gays. Given the Black on Black murder rate they don't like other Blacks much either.

Anonymous Gen. Kong September 23, 2016 4:02 PM  

ZhukovG wrote:I think one big difference between Alt-White and Alt-West is the manner in which the former seems to obsess over the 'Jewish Question'.

Jews are not supermen. They have nothing we gentiles haven't given them. Hell, we even gave them their Ethno-State.

Our enemy is the Globalists, most of which are gentile. Though Jews are overrepresented among them and that is not an insignificant fact.

Once the Globalists are defeated, any power the Jews have will evaporate. Most will self deport, if we let any remain they will have to accept drastically reduced circumstances.


This is an interesting point. Who at is the center of globalist power? One of the longer-standing theories places Jews there due to the Jewish banking cartels and their control over Europe starting in the late 18th century. Great Britain was controlled by 1688 (Glorious Revolution, Bank of England) and completely taken over by 1815 (Rothschild basically purchased the place for pennies on the pound after putting out a false report of Napoleon's victory at Waterloo, which precipitated a market crash). They always had their friends among the goyim however - typically elites who could never control their appetites (take a look at George IV sometime for a physical manifestation of this). The House of Saud is certainly connected to the nexus, as is the House of Prescott-Bush, the Rockefellers and others. (((Soros))) is the poster-boy for the wicked elite globalist. He's got many spawn and many faithful soldiers in his pay.

One strange thing which can be readily observed is how all but a very tiny segment of Jews absolutely refuse to say anything negative about (((Soros))). Glenn Beck, while certainly the Cheetoze-Jeezus of Cuckery who can't wait to lick the feet (or worse) of every Jew he encounters, was once brazen enough to actually do a segment while at Fox on how the Soros fortune came into being. In light of Soros' absolute treason against his own people of the very worst sort, one would think that the bastard and his assorted spawn would have been liquidated by the JDL or Mossad long ago. They would be totally justified in doing so. Instead, all Jewish groups large and small screamed bloody murder at Fox and Beck was kicked off the air - for a hate truth.

What can be inferred from this? Evidently, the vast majority of Jews consider the objectives of (((Soros))), which can only be described as genocide, as far more important than any punishment of retribution for his own grave treason against them. It could be a case of something along the lines of the omertà of the mafia, or perhaps the two-millenia hate is so great that it trumps all other considerations. Despite all of the unpleasant observations just made, the issue of how much of the globalist elite are Jews is still actually secondary. As I see it, our primary issue is how to develop strategies to identify the weak links in the chain of power so they can be neutralized so the whole globalist racket collapses. George Soros is an old man and he will not live that much longer, so is George Herbert Walker 'Poppy' Bush - another loathsome individual. If we are successful at identifying and destroying those elements in the power structure to such an extent that the whole edifice collapses, folks like the Bushes, Soros, Gates and Zuckerberg will not matter - their own security details will turn upon them and give them far more mercy than they will ever deserve.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents September 23, 2016 4:35 PM  

@115 User
It's my limited impression that typical black Americans don't give a hoot about holocaustianity. Can anyone with better knowledge correct or corroborate?

You're correct. Also mestizos don't give a hoot either. Han Chinese don't either. Same for Japanese.

Only white westerners "do" holocaustianity, and they're getting saturated. Peak holocaustianity may have been reached.

Anonymous Ezekiel Cassandros September 23, 2016 4:52 PM  

"One strange thing which can be readily observed is how all but a very tiny segment of Jews absolutely refuse to say anything negative about (((Soros)))."

It's especially hilarious considering that he opposes Zionism and supports immigration to Israel. And his son likes black women.

What do you do when the rabbi IS the golem?

Anonymous BGKB September 23, 2016 6:38 PM  

115 User It's my limited impression that typical black Americans don't give a hoot about holocaustianity.

The relationship between blacks & jews explained. By Walk Bismark https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IN3FUmPN1mY

Blogger The Overgrown Hobbit September 23, 2016 7:12 PM  

@Ezekiel Going back to something that led to where we are here, without dealing with the underlying problems that led from there to here, is a temporary respite.

That's the sticking point.

Since the people who got to this point: Rousseau, Marx, Lenin, Wilson, etc. were European white men... it's hard not to view the "race is the critical component" (rather than Faith and culture) with dismay viz the long game.

Nevertheless:


"I'll take it over the imminent rape-genocide." And the destruction of Western, Christian civilization.

Anonymous EH September 23, 2016 8:03 PM  

The alt-right's goal is to ensure the best future for our people's posterity. Different strains of alt-right have different views, broader or narrower, of who is part of "our people", what is good for our posterity and how our campaign and government should be structured.

Finding more effective, reliable ways of making, coordinating and executing decisions is necessary to doing that, as is gaining practical power to effect those decisions. These better methods of organization will use modern technology such as Ethereum which allows creating distributed ledgers, Turing-complete contracts, and distributed autonomous organizations.

I've just been finding out about these distributed entities and their software implementations over the past few days, but it looks certain to be a much bigger deal than Bitcoin, darknets, or even file sharing.

Some links:

Using Etherium to create a Decentralized Autonomous Organization (DAO)

Types of distributed entities Vitalik Buterin / May 6th, 2014.

Consensus-as-a-service: a brief report on the emergence of permissioned, distributed ledger systems / Tim Swanson April 6, 2015 / 66 pp.

Blogger Groot September 23, 2016 10:44 PM  

My impression of the alt-whatever:

SJWs: race, race, race, white privilege, race, race, only black lives matter, race, race, La Raza, race, race, affirmative action, race, race, race.

Alt-ist: OK. Race.

SJW: Racist!

SJW narrative chorus: Racist! Racist, misogynist, homophobe, islamaphobe!

@122. EH:

Welcome to my world, where invisibility cloaks are mass-produced. Take the invisible pill, where your property rights are protected by technology, not mob rule, and government is the stupid troll in the bathroom.

Blogger Thiên Lôi September 23, 2016 11:33 PM  

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Đơn vị nhận đặt mua hàng giúp quốc tế
Đơn vị chuyên đặt mua hộ hàng nước ngoài

Anonymous Discard September 24, 2016 4:59 AM  

80. User: I agree. Our ancestors gave us defensible borders, the Atlantic and Pacific coasts, and our immediate neighbors, Mexico and Canada, could not begin to challenge us. Divide America into separate countries if you wish, but all of them must be White. No beachheads for Chinese or Hindus or Mexicans. At most, a slice of land for self-supporting Blacks, under the protection/domination of its White neighbors.

68. Ahenobarbus: People would not understand why their well-behaving, productive, friends of color should have to leave..."
SJWs won't have any say in things.

Anonymous Discard September 24, 2016 5:02 AM  

Is there a difference between the Alt Right and the Dark Enlightenment?

Blogger tublecane September 24, 2016 9:04 AM  

@127-Yes and no. The Dark Enlightenment is certainly rightist and outside the mainstream, so it fits the basic defense of "alt-right." But there's another, more restrictive definition of alt-right. People also use the term for what you might call the populist right or the nationalist right. It coincides with Vox's points. They tend to differ with the Dark Enlightenment on democracy, writing styles, tactics, and quite a lot of things. In a perfect world we'd get a new term for it, but that train has left the station and we're stuck with the double meaning of alt-right.

I, for one, tire of taxonomy and doctrinal disputes. Let's sort that out after we win. A mixture of Negro Fatigue, horror at the refugee "crisis," and wonder at the speed with which the American people have been force-fed gay marriage and trannyism has me fighting mad. I want to storm the local college campus, literally. I don't care if the man next to me is darkly enlightened, a libertarian, or an actual Nazi. I want to fight!

Anonymous User September 24, 2016 12:28 PM  

Now is not the time to fight. It's time to do exactly what we're doing: speak up. The next step for men of the west is gathering in parliaments and deliberating. If one of these parliaments, congresses, or deliberative bodies chooses to fight, then it's time to fight.

Blogger SciVo September 25, 2016 7:46 AM  

Discard wrote:80. User: I agree. Our ancestors gave us defensible borders, the Atlantic and Pacific coasts, and our immediate neighbors, Mexico and Canada, could not begin to challenge us. Divide America into separate countries if you wish, but all of them must be White. No beachheads for Chinese or Hindus or Mexicans. At most, a slice of land for self-supporting Blacks, under the protection/domination of its White neighbors.

I agree, and that will be challenging.

If we allow an ethnostate with overseas allegiances to be established, then we set ourselves up to be shot, raped and starved like the Germans after they got into it with the English. If are intelligent men that learn from history, then we must be willing to do whatever it takes to prevent that.

However, it is highly likely that at least one white state would continue the policies that got us into this mess, and the canucks are so cucked that we will probably have a Chinese state to our north regardless.

Anonymous karsten September 25, 2016 9:08 AM  

Late response to this piece.

Counter Currents has a very good counter-argument on this score. It is unfair to Vox's position, but otherwise, it makes a very good point and does address the "purity spiral" issue in an intelligent way:

http://www.counter-currents.com/2016/09/cultural-libertarianism-vs-the-alt-right/

I'd have to say that I agree with it (while again stipulating that it is not a fair summation of Vox's position, as I understand it).

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