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Tuesday, September 20, 2016

Mailvox: when your church converges

A reader in the Bay Area wonders what his options are:
I went to church today and I've been worried for a long time. There have been signs. The original church was extremely intellectual, led by a couple men I respect who learned Greek and Aramaic personally, research like none other and present the Bible in a way I'd never seen in regular church services. Two years ago one of those men was forced out, though I didn't see it at the time because he "left for a new position in another church". He was replaced by young, hipster types leading everything. The lead pastor, whom I also respect, has started backing off, only preaching once a month or so, doing other things while those younger "hipper" people take over.

A few months ago they started having a woman lead services. They brought in and merged with a chuch from a black area, brought in a lot more minority populations.

I noticed my wife, who's heavily involved in those small groups, started getting really passionate about Good Samaritan type projects and we had a few fights about how I was saying they were scams, as it was a lot of raising money type of deals.

Today it culminated where they actually brought in one of the 49ers who is protesting with Kaepernick and did a sermon on how the "disciples were diverse", and he gave a shpiel about how him and Kaepernick are going to "change the community, because cops can do better, we can do better." Full SJW lie with zero biblical basis. They opened with a video about multi-racial couples and talking about race and probably mentioned diversity 50 times over the course of the sermon.

I walked out during the 49er bit.  Now my wife is very very heavily involved in the smaller groups of the church. I grew up with a number of people so the prospect of leaving is like cutting off an arm. What do I do? Is leaving the only thing I can do?
Yes. It's time to leave. Do not discuss it with your wife. It's not something to negotiate; either you are the spiritual leader of the family or she is. Leave and find a new church. She may follow your lead, or she may not, but that's her responsibility, not yours.

Your responsibility is to lead the way. And the church you describe no longer serves the Lord, it serves the spirit of the world.

You were worried because your spirit was picking up on the false spirit that entered the church. Now your mind knows what your spirit already knew. The fact that the good pastor was forced out is a strong indicator that you are dealing with some knowingly evil people here, it's not a series of unfortunate coincidences.

Labels: ,

154 Comments:

Blogger Rory Porth September 20, 2016 1:10 PM  

Agreed... you must go. Home Churches are becoming very more common for this very reason.

Be the lead in your family.

Anonymous Terrahawk September 20, 2016 1:14 PM  

Yes, leave now. Your wife will give you grief but in the end she'll respect you more that you stood up to her on something this important.

I disagree with the not talking to her about your decision though. Explain why you are making the decision and move forward. Let her know though that it isn't open for discussion.

Anonymous DDT September 20, 2016 1:15 PM  

Related to this, I'm wondering something.

Has anyone in the ilk ever had experience with being in a leadership position in a Church or church-group, and telling an entryist they're no longer welcome?

Anonymous Anonymous September 20, 2016 1:17 PM  

Locator for traditionalist churches of the old school Lutheran variety. Worth checking out for any who face this problem. http://lutheranliturgy.org/search.php?formGeoAddress=san+francisco&formGeoDistance=50

Anonymous Traditionalist Saxon September 20, 2016 1:18 PM  

Locator for traditionalist congregations of the old school Lutheran variety (NOT the converged ELCA). Worth checking out for any who face this dilemma.

http://lutheranliturgy.org/search.php?formGeoAddress=san+francisco&formGeoDistance=50

Blogger Markku September 20, 2016 1:19 PM  

ABSOLUTELY. Leave, and don't discuss or negotiate. Leave it behind like people used to renounce satan.

Anonymous Terrahawk September 20, 2016 1:19 PM  

I haven't but I know our church requires everyone to go through a course with the pastor before gaining membership. We've had a lot of people from a branch of the same denomination wanting to switch. It's explained to them that we have different views on women, homosexuality, etc. and if they don't agree to go somewhere else.

Blogger Cataline Sergius September 20, 2016 1:23 PM  

The truth is you don't have a church anymore.

That's all there is to it.

It happens. It happens a lot. There isn't a lot you can do except leave.

True story.

Blogger Whisker biscuit September 20, 2016 1:25 PM  

I am currently dealing with a similar circumstance.

Leave. Now. Tell your wife. Hopefully she heeds your advice; but for your walk with Christ, get out and don't look back.

Worship and Bible studies at home if need be. If not, the emotional trappings and rot-gut rhetoric in the church will dig its claws in you.

Blogger bob k. mando ( the hardest troll here ) September 20, 2016 1:28 PM  

VD
a strong indicator that you are dealing with some knowingly evil people here, it's not a series of unfortunate coincidences.



this, so much this.

also, have you talked to the remaining 'good pastor'?

does he acknowledge that *he* has made errors? because, regardless of how intellectually titillating his sermons may have been, he was certainly not as "wise as a serpent", otherwise he'd have never permitted serpents to supplant him.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+10%3A16&version=KJV

IF the lead pastor acknowledges error
THEN you may wish to consider bringing him along or considering his counsel.

Blogger Jehu September 20, 2016 1:30 PM  

I can't say I've seen many pastors of churches of size over about 150 that didn't at least smell heretical.

Blogger Cataline Sergius September 20, 2016 1:32 PM  

Small CRC church in Michigan it was doing well until it got a new minister. Very touchy, feely. One day the congregation discovers that two of it's married members have been having an affair.

It was end of both their marriages. The man at least had the decency to leave the church. The woman did not. And the Reverend wouldn't insist that she leave and wanted no one to say anything to her "because he was afraid it would hurt her spirit." Wrapping himself in the mantle of a Man of God when he did so.

He was privately confronted about this by a large ex-military guy who was one of the Elders and told him that he was resigning as an elder and taking his family out of the church because of his cowardice and refusal to act.

The Ex-military guy knew he had made the right decision when the Man of God started sobbing like a bitch and whining, "what can I do? What can I do?"

Blogger Escoffier September 20, 2016 1:33 PM  

The Boss said: "You were worried because your spirit was picking up on the false spirit that entered the church. Now your mind knows what your spirit already knew. The fact that the good pastor was forced out is a strong indicator that you are dealing with some knowingly evil people here, it's not a series of unfortunate coincidences."

Progressivism enters the Church as a silent deadly gas and over time removes Christ as the central pillar leaving behind a lifeless husk. And the true horror is that most members of that Church can tell no difference.

Blogger Austin Ballast September 20, 2016 1:37 PM  

A tougher challenge is how to find a church that doesn't have the subtle anti-male thread running underneath it. The kind with Father's Day sermons that always tell fathers to be better while Mother's Day sermons only praise mothers, for example.

Staid traditional churches have little appeal to many of us as well, which makes the task of finding a good church even more challenging.

Anonymous Fran September 20, 2016 1:42 PM  

@11 "The Ex-military guy knew he had made the right decision when the Man of God started sobbing like a bitch and whining, "what can I do? What can I do?""

Sounds like a scene from the Godfather in which the Don grabs the guy by the lapels and bitch slaps him and tells him he can start by acting like a man.

Anonymous A Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents September 20, 2016 1:43 PM  

I disagree with the not talking to her about your decision though.

Talking TO her about it is correct.

Explain why you are making the decision and move forward. Let her know though that it isn't open for discussion.

Do not get bogged down in verbiage. Do not let her change the subject away from "This church is not Bible based any more". Do not let the issue become open ended. Do not tolerate any "what if?" or other temporizing.

You are like Lot. Get out. If your wife looks back, it is on her.

You might want to find where the first man thrown out of the sleigh went, though. He would seem to be worth looking up

OpenID frankluke September 20, 2016 1:43 PM  

One of my favorite sermons from our head pastor came a few years ago: "We are not Called to Coexist!"

One of my duties as associate pastor is to lead communion. The HP and I never discuss the sermon and communion devotional. Our church does not have assigned readings and texts. Several times, he and I will have texts that mesh together. Like one day I read from 2 Peter where Peter is thinking back to the Mount of Transfiguration and how it changed his life. HP's sermon was on the Mount of Transfiguration. Last month, I was teaching on courage as the cardinal virtue without which the others are impossible. I read from the trial of Jesus and stated that Pilate's lack of courage meant no justice for Jesus. His text included Acts 8:33, "In His humilitation, justice was denied to Him."

|Has anyone in the ilk ever had experience with being in a leadership position in a Church or church-group, and telling an entryist they're no longer welcome?

We've had to tell people to knock off the bad theology, but I haven't had to deal with entryists. In addition, head pastor had to stand firm recently with some trouble-brewing and attempted usurpation on the worship team. As of now, only lost two regulars over the deal.

How he accomplished that was transparency. He told the congregation exactly what was going on, what was said, and the responses. It was clear he had followed the biblical model of addressing the problem directly with those involved. And he never backed down from it. He did not apologize to the usurper, even for hurt feelings. I'm pretty sure he's never read SJWAL.

Anonymous patrick kelly September 20, 2016 1:46 PM  

Damn, difficult spot to be in. When I decided to leave my family was always supportive, and sometimes they were relieved.

Got new, different rough rows to how now.

Blogger James Dixon September 20, 2016 1:46 PM  

Echoing what the others have said, leave and leave now. Don't brook debate on the matter. Once you find another church, your wife can stay or follow as she sees fit.

Anonymous Gordian September 20, 2016 1:50 PM  

Remember that you can judge people by their enemies. I found my last church through an Op-Ed in the newspaper. The mayor of my former town was criticizing a minister for "not representing who we are". I googled the name and found a gay and lesbian forum board with a whole thread devoted to hating on this minister. It was probably the best church I ever belonged to.

Blogger Roger G2 September 20, 2016 1:51 PM  

Here in WVa. we call it "preaching in the flesh" as opposed to preaching in the spirit. My dad is quick to catch on when this happens. Me, not so much.
But it's surely happening with this guy's church.
Time to leave. Amen.

Anonymous Ten41 September 20, 2016 1:51 PM  

I concur; leave and leave now.

Had this happen to me, just couldn't stand the PC church. Went Home Church for a few years, but trying a new local church out now.

Look, see, and test.

Blogger Orville September 20, 2016 1:51 PM  

Yeah, it's painful. Took me some years to get over it. Still haven't found a suitable replacement. Home study, listen to messages of sound preachers. You'd be surprised what you can find on the Internet.

You can get all of J. Vernon McGee's messages here... http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/thru-the-bible-with-j-vernon-mcgee/listen/

That same site has Donald Grey Barnhouse, Martyn Lloyd Jones, A.W Tozer and some other reliable preachers from the past.

Anonymous VFM #7916 September 20, 2016 1:52 PM  

@1

Are you referring to the friends?

Blogger Guitar Man September 20, 2016 1:53 PM  

I recall a story a friend of mine told me about his previous church. It was a Lutheran Church with mostly older people and generations of families. There was an older gentlemen who grew up in this church. And over time, the church changed until it really wasn't a church. During one of the services, this old man couldn't help himself. During the service, he stood up and with a shaky voice, yelled out, "When are you going to talk about Jesus? When did we stop talking about Jesus?" The service ended right then and there, and everyone left crying and upset. Not because he was right, but because they were wrong. That church was nothing more than a social club.

Later, at this old man's funeral, his son relayed the story to my friend. His son was wondering if his dad had lost his mind, but my friend remarked that he was the only one who still had his mind at that point.

God leaves the gatherings that leave Him.

Anonymous Phil Scholling September 20, 2016 1:57 PM  

It's always a hard step to leave, especially if you've been conditioned to the organized church life for a long time. There are landing places, sometimes you just don't see them until you're in flight. I have a small group of guys that I meet up with every week. We all came out of various organized church backgrounds. We meet up to hang out, challenge and encourage one another to always follow the path Christ has for us. It's extremely interactive and no topic is off the table. Not saying that is for everyone but for everyone that desires to follow Christ, he is going to provide you the help along the way.

I had never lead anything like this before and not really sure that I'm much more than the instigator that gets us going but it's been well worth the leap.

Blogger Bard September 20, 2016 1:58 PM  

Leave and tell him clearly why. He probably won't care, but heap burning coals anyway.

Blogger Lovekraft September 20, 2016 1:59 PM  

Look at the pros and cons. To a searching Christian, the weight of lying to oneself, following false/diluted doctrine, undermining one's moral is much, much heavier than being alone.

One cannot be adrift if deep down he is with Christ.

Blogger Lovekraft September 20, 2016 2:00 PM  

I remember years ago reading the history of an infiltration in a major church. The Philadelphia Trumpet was its publication. Compelling reading as to how determined and nefarious these intruders can be.

Blogger tz September 20, 2016 2:04 PM  

There are dozens of good ministers on You Tube. Although I'm Catholic, I watch Chuck Baldwin (libertyfellowshipmt.com) every week.
radio free redoubt covered it (noisy from tech probs, about 40 minutes in).

How much is your soul, and the souls of your wife and children worth?

Move. Boise and Salt Lake City are better, bit there are even better places. You need to leave Sodom.

And I need to repeat a line from our church bulletin

This is based on the fact that, as heads of households, it is only fitting that grace shpuld be drawn from Heaven first and foremost by the men of our community.

I would also note the churches here are big into real, not SJW virtue signalling charity.

Blogger darrenl September 20, 2016 2:05 PM  

Should you leave? You can.

Will it solve the problem? Most likely not.

Blogger Zach September 20, 2016 2:08 PM  

Can't say I ever dealt with an entryist from a leadership position.

I did get fired from my Vestry position by our bishop, though. I still have the letter. I should frame it.

peace,
Zach

Blogger darrenl September 20, 2016 2:10 PM  

Should you leave? You can.

Will it solve the problem? Most likely not.

Blogger Markku September 20, 2016 2:10 PM  

You may be entertaining a very unproductive thought that you are not voicing. So, just in case:

"Your Church should not be your mission field"
-Greg Koukl

Blogger Orville September 20, 2016 2:16 PM  

Markku, are you freed yet to work on that app?

Blogger Guitar Man September 20, 2016 2:16 PM  

Good quote, Markku.

Blogger Markku September 20, 2016 2:18 PM  

Unfortunately not QUITE yet, but I believe it won't take but a few weeks until I can make a few proofs of concept.

Anonymous Rolf September 20, 2016 2:18 PM  

Speaking of churches changing, where to go, who to follow, etc.

I came across this the other day looking for a few more details on my book about the founding of the fictional monastic order of St. Possenti.

Bergoglio is the anti-Pope

Short Version of my understanding of it: for the first time in centuries, a Pope left office while alive, and he left some tough decisions hanging. A new pope gets elected, and says some bat-shit leftie stuff, making a whole lot of people very… distraught. There has been a problem since Vatican II, and the <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_Saint_Pius_X>SSPX </a> came out of it. We now apparently have a fair number of people who were disgusted with Pope Benedict XVI (Ratzinger) for resigning and some of what he did, but they view the current Vatican chief (Bergoglio) as an Anti-pope trying to schism the church, which is even worse.

Yeah. And I thought this sort of intrigue went out in the middle ages. Apparently not, even if it sounds more like a Dan Brown novel than real life.

Anonymous Pax_Romana September 20, 2016 2:19 PM  

For myself, I was lead in my conscience to stop attending my main church. I HD gone there for 6 years, and though it was a younger church, the older pastor did not compromise the gospel.

However, he felt lead to plant a church in London. The new guy, God bless him, has a doctorate, is from Seattle, and is trying to reach the liberals by compromising how he speaks to them. He beats up men and pardons women, he talks of social justice, and says the Bible did not five the husband authority in the house.

I called him on it, and his answer was
...unsatisfactory. So I have left. I watch Chuck Missler's sermons online, I go to my old Bible study to stay in fellowship, but my church is converging and they will not listen.

Get out of Sodom, Lot.

Anonymous Credo in Unum Deum September 20, 2016 2:22 PM  

It would be best if one comes into full communion with the Church founded by Jesus Christ.

That being said, if one cannot make the "intellectual/spiritual leap" to becoming a Catholic, it would be best if one stayed with a "Good Protestant Church" than join one of the many "Bad Catholic Parishes" out there.

You want your kids to become atheists? Send them to Catholic schools from K-12, and take them to Novus Ordo Masses every week until they're 18.

You wanna talk convergence?

Listen to the "Prayers of the Faithful" during ANY Novus Ordo Mass in America on any random Sunday, and you'll understand.

If I did not believe that the Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ Himself, 2000 years ago, I would never have joined, and I would not be enduring the horrible hymns week after week. If Jesus can handle being Crucified, I can endure listening to a bunch of 70 year old half-dead hippies singing "Gather Us In."

Anonymous JN September 20, 2016 2:24 PM  

...the prospect of leaving is like cutting off an arm.

Interesting choice of words

"And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell."

Blogger Mr. Collins September 20, 2016 2:24 PM  

I've seen this same pattern unfold in my own church in San Jose: women in leadership, salvation through other faiths, rejection of Christ's sinless life, attacks on Paul, belittling Revelation, acceptance and then promotion of homosexuality, and finally the spinning of the gospel message into full blow social justice Marxism. My wife is heavily involved in the church's social groups, so she has remained. I grew tired of standing and walking out in protest during services and eventually left. This upset my wife, but there was absolutely no way I was going to worship the world in church. Leave! Pray and God will lead you to a new Christ rooted church. Your spirit will feel the presence of the Holy Ghost, and you will feel God's pleasure.

Blogger Bard September 20, 2016 2:24 PM  

Markku,
Is that the app to join like minded Ilk locally?

Anonymous Rolf September 20, 2016 2:26 PM  

Rats. Links didn't work, and didn't get flagged to get fixed.
Here: Anti-pope SSPX

Blogger Chiva September 20, 2016 2:31 PM  

Should you leave?
The question you need to ask yourself is this. Are you willing to fight for this church?

Pray and ask the Lord to lead you in this. If you don't feel the leading of the Spirit to stay and fight then you may leave. But if the Spirit is telling you to stay then gird yourself, you will be in battle.

Anonymous Seneca September 20, 2016 2:33 PM  

It's hard to find a good church in the SF Bay Area. I spent a long time looking and the top picks there would be the bottom picks in Boise. But you have to work with where you are. That means that you have to decide what you need. Awkward service times? Don't rule a good church out for that. Bad parking situation? Better to go through parking hell every week than listen to washed up entryism masquerading as the gospel. Maybe you end up BARTing into San Francisco every sunday? If it gets you to a good church, it's worth it. Heck, you might even check out ethnic churches. They're (probably) not your people. They probably don't have the worship or preaching style you prefer. But better to be a foreigner among God's people than among your own people and without God. Looking back, when I was in the bay area, I wrote off too many churches for non-essential reasons.

Since the particular church in question is in the east bay, you may also want to look into some of the dissenting churches among the so-called mainline denominations. Five years or so ago, I remember writing off Walnut Creek Presbyterian because PCUSA. Later I learned, they were one of (few) churches in that denomination refusing to go along with the gaying of the PCUSA and were in a few legal actions as a result of it. Maybe they've given in now. Maybe they've left the PCUSA. Or maybe they're a decent church. I haven't been following that drama, but they're probably assuming they haven't formally capitulated, they're probably as likely to be a decent church as others in less heretical denominations.

Blogger Markku September 20, 2016 2:36 PM  

Bard wrote:Markku,

Is that the app to join like minded Ilk locally?


To organize house churches for the unchurched.

Blogger Markku September 20, 2016 2:38 PM  

For the Ilk-minded, that is. The contact information goes through Vox, so he's sort of everybody's point of trust in this. Roughly the same system as the VFM, but based on location.

Blogger Bard September 20, 2016 2:39 PM  

Even better. Let us know if we can help with donations. I don't know squat about programming, so no help there, but I like the idea enough to support it.

Blogger ace September 20, 2016 2:42 PM  

If a fire started in his church, would he only look out for himself and his wife, or would he try to help other members of the congregation? Point being I don't think the reader should slink off into the night with his wife if he finds a better alternative. He should try to save some of his friends' souls.

Hell. Sin. Heresy. Punishment. Will he use any of these words? Doubtful.

Blogger Markku September 20, 2016 2:44 PM  

Will do, though I expect this to be very, very simple and straightforward. Nate wants to expand on the idea and create also some materials to go with it, like some do's and don'ts about doing house church, from those who have already been there and so forth. I expect volunteers to come into the picture in those kinds of things rather than creating the system. Unless of course someone wants to volunteer for coding it. If THAT happens, and they have done something similar before, then I'm happy to give the project off my hands.

But either way, this doesn't really require money in the coding phase.

Blogger Latigo3 September 20, 2016 2:47 PM  

Women will always get upset, but the husband is called to be the priest of the house. So husbands need to lead spiritually, one preacher friend of mine put it like this; "every man needs to be his own Abraham"

Blogger bob k. mando ( the hardest troll here ) September 20, 2016 2:47 PM  

32. darrenl September 20, 2016 2:10 PM
Will it solve the problem? Most likely not.



which is why i suggested speaking to the remaining pastor.

the suggestion to follow the other guy ( if still in the area ) may also be worthwhile, but he also failed to prevent the incursion. on the plus side, he was good enough that the entryists had to drive him out.

Anonymous Tom September 20, 2016 2:50 PM  

@The Reader in the Bay Area

If you are not actively in the Word of God yourself on a near daily basis, and you are not actively engaging your wife (and any children you may have) in study of the Bible, your claims will ring very hollow.

Why should the fact that the church you're attending doesn't study the Bible anymore matter if you and your wife aren't studying the Bible yourselves? And, if you're studying the Bible together, that is where you should start the conversation about this topic. Read some appropriate passages and bring up some topics for discussion before you drop the boom that you're leaving. Respect and love your wife enough to show her why you're leaving that church whether she comes with you or not, then leave.

My family (eight of us at the time) left a church because they couldn't give a Biblical reason for organizing their "Sunday School" program like the World (and its Prince) organized its schools. That church was strong on almost every other doctrinal topic, but once you start untying the mooring lines from the Rock, it is only a matter of time before you're riding the waves on the storm tossed seas.

Went off and found a church full of huge homeschool families that actually functions like a family of believers. When any family needs help and asks, huge numbers of members and children show up to help. We fellowship together for an hour or two every Sunday after our Worship service. It is an amazing body of believers.

Blogger tuberman September 20, 2016 2:51 PM  

What is surprising to me is how many warnings it is possible to ignore when it is YOUR CHURCH, or the church of someone you deeply love that has converged or turned Churchian. I saw the warning signs all around me, but did not want to understand, until something happened that totally changed my world two years ago.

That woman that I deeply loved, played the "Victim Card" all in against me. She constantly let other women take advantage of her, and one black woman was particularly using her. I told her she needed to stand up for herself, without knowing how involved in these converged politics she was and her church believed in, as I had simply ignored the multiple signs.

Literally overnight, or the next morning, she ended our three year relationship. She said I was abusing her, yet I'd never evn used harsh language saying to her that the black lady was abusing the relationship with her.

It took me a few weeks sorting it out, going over in my mind the things I'd seen from visiting her church, and things she had told me.She had told me she had tried dating the males in her church, but they were all "boring." I visited the church twice, but had a bad feelings about it, and the guys were passive and feminized Gammas. The churches enthusiasm was female driven, and the male preachers low-energy. My girlfriend admitted she found their preahing tedious.

I had what seemed like a great relationship all around with that woman. She said she was "Traditonal," and now I trust that term like I trust "Consrvative." Our sex life was better than good, we shared many views on movies and TV, and books, as I liked "Coming Of Age" stories, good SiFi, and even high quality "quirky" romantic comedies.

I now find it amusing how much I'd overlooked to keep the good stuff going, and am happy that it did not turn out worse...absurd, lying accusations or such. She must have really loved me, because she got rid of her SJW side self away from me without doing critical damage.

Blogger Bard September 20, 2016 2:59 PM  

Thanks Markku. Keep us posted. I have some experience with home church, and there are a few things to watch for there as well, but I bet Nate is all over it.

Anonymous Ezekiel Cassandros September 20, 2016 3:00 PM  

'The Ex-military guy knew he had made the right decision when the Man of God started sobbing like a bitch and whining, "what can I do? What can I do?" '

Did his seminary education not cover 1 Corinthians 5? Good grief.

Blogger Austin Ballast September 20, 2016 3:00 PM  

Our sex life was better than good

I am not sure why you would bother with a Christian church tuberman. If you are willing to compromise on that, what does the rest of the compromise matter?

Anonymous Scintan September 20, 2016 3:02 PM  

I noticed my wife, who's heavily involved in those small groups, started getting really passionate about Good Samaritan type projects and we had a few fights about how I was saying they were scams, as it was a lot of raising money type of deals.

This is a great demonstration of why it's better to get out too soon than to try getting out too late.

Blogger Luis September 20, 2016 3:06 PM  

This.

My Pastor just mentioned the Coexist sticker Sunday.

Currently dealing with a Gamma Worship leader that wormed his way in.

Blogger Luis September 20, 2016 3:07 PM  

This.

My Pastor just mentioned the Coexist sticker Sunday.

Currently dealing with a Gamma Worship leader that wormed his way in.

Blogger bob k. mando ( the hardest troll here ) September 20, 2016 3:09 PM  

54. tuberman September 20, 2016 2:51 PM
That woman that I deeply loved,
...
Our sex life was better than good



but you WEREN'T married too her? was she even a virgin before you started fucking her?

then what are you complaining about? you're as Churchian as all get out, when it benefits you.

Blogger FSL September 20, 2016 3:11 PM  

I feel you brother. I thank God there's an Anglican Ordinariate Catholic Parish here with a Marine and former cop as its Pastor. His homily was focused on the *rest* of 1 Tim 2 that is too politically incorrect for the current princes of the Church to include in the lectionary.

Blogger Sean Carnegie September 20, 2016 3:12 PM  

Www.voiceinthewildernessradio.com

Free, streaming Reformed preaching 24-7 except Sunday mornings. Hall, McArthur, Spurgeon readings, etc.

Anonymous Difster September 20, 2016 3:15 PM  

I concur. Leave immediately. Don't EXPLAIN to your wife, just tell her. And certainly don't even bother to tell the church; it will just embolden them. They'll do their best to smear you on the way out. Simply stop going and tell your wife to cut off contact.

Find another church right away though; but vet it first.

Anonymous Sensei September 20, 2016 3:17 PM  

The seminary I graduated from, currently led by a good but weak-conscienced man, is showing very strong signs of convergence. They are now trying to figure out how to reconcile sound biblical theology with SJW-informed notions of justice and gender issues. Since they can't be reconciled, there's going to be a fight at some point. For most of the life of the school women weren't allowed to attend. As a student, at first I thought that was due to overly conservative tradition, but now I know why; they're mostly driving the convergence, and professors aren't wise in the ways of SJWs and end up defensively virtue signalling in the face of a propagandized millennial student body.

Blogger J Van Stry September 20, 2016 3:23 PM  

My Father was one of the laymen leaders in the largest Lutheran church in my (rather large) town. When they started down this path in the late 70's he complained.
When they did something like this in the middle of a service, he got up and walked out.

It was huge, he left and never came back.

A lot of other people left too, for more 'conservative' churches, that is, ones that were preaching the gospel, not political BS.

I pretty much did the same thing with the catholic church I was going to, (though it wasn't all that big of a deal to them, though my mother was scandalized) when they started in on a political homily that I knew from personal experience was not true.

Churches wonder why attendance is down, the simple reason is, I can hear the same kind of preaching that many of them do now, simply by turning on the TV. I go to church to hear the word of God. Not some left wing SJW's political diatribe.

Blogger Jed Mask September 20, 2016 3:26 PM  

Wow... Real sad situation here. Yes to the brother in Christ: if the Lord is telling you to "leave the church" you must LEAD and encourage your wife and family to follow along with you and LEAVE that church.

Keeping this all in PRAYER. Amen.

~ Bro. Jed

Blogger Matt September 20, 2016 3:26 PM  

There must be other men just as disgusted. Get some wood and find a new rock.

Blogger Dirtnapninja September 20, 2016 3:31 PM  

I have never seen a congregation of any denomination that actually benefited from bringing in female preachers.

Blogger tz September 20, 2016 3:54 PM  

@54 I told her she needed to stand up for herself, without knowing how involved in these converged politics she was and her church believed in, as I had simply ignored the multiple signs.

You had sex, but weren't her "head"?

There are two problems - first it is better to have a strong-willed woman who will be in submission to you and you alone. The problem with a weak-will is when they go out into the world, they will "submit" to any authority figure even if you make it clear it would be disobedience. The Cows don't care about which Cowboy is driving the herd.

Second is you have to immediately draw lines. You are the head, the priest of the family. You cannot have an "equal" or "complimentary" relationship for 2-3 years and only then try to assert your headship.

Had you assumed the role very early on, either she would have accepted your headship or the disobedience would have become apparent.

Anonymous Incurvatus September 20, 2016 3:56 PM  

Cataline Sergius wrote:...
The Ex-military guy knew he had made the right decision when the Man of God started sobbing like a bitch and whining, "what can I do? What can I do?"


What can you do, Pastor?!?!
STAND ON THE VERY WORD OF GOD!
PROTECT THE SHEEP IN YOUR KEEP!



Ilk, I commend to your attention this study on 'Ministers vs Leaders' in the church. If your pastor insists on changing church to create 'leaders' or 'vision,' insist on referring to him as "Führer."
http://www.piratechristian.com/fightingforthefaith/2016/9/the-anticatechism-part-2?rq=wolfmueller


Hey Traditionalist Saxon : We'll have to schedule some Gemütlichkeit.

OpenID boardroomal September 20, 2016 4:04 PM  

I'm going for it

Convert to Catholicism, nothing against orthodox brothers, but despite the rampant SJW-ism in Catholicism and its bad...the doctrines, the dogma, cannon law, the lines back to the apostles, the documentation....yes the rules, make it an extremely difficult organization to fully SJW-converge. Right now we have a maniac at the helm who recently said the way to defeat terrorism is to more or less import muslims..we have had much much worse than him at the helm...

I was ELCA Lutheran...left..did my homework and found that many or all churches would are susceptable to SJW convergance and being brought to heel by political and cultural powers...and that cults of personality around a single pastor do not scale...they leave and get replaced by SJW's...my old lutheran congregation literally has a pastor now who takes his "Wife's Last Name" as his own.

Want Red Pill?

1. Catholic Church will NOT ordain women....Not...going....to....happen.
2. Catholic Church is so strict that despite best efforts especially recently...you..cannot...get...divorced and remarried without living outside the Church (Difficult I know but very Red Pilled)...you can get an "Annulment" but basically through that process if you "Lie" about what constitutes the intention of a full marriage in the discernment process..you damned yourself and you are warned about that.
3. Contraception...Nope. Find that time of the month when your safe otherwise...mortal sin.
4. The church has doctrines on war, politics, organizing etc....they have literally rallied Christendom against its enemies in the past...

And a crap pile more...this is why the Atheists and the Secular always aim at the Catholic Church...Hitchen and the rest know that if they can take down the whale...all else will follow.

Yes there are lunatics everywhere...in collars, in the universities, theologians...seminaries...but there are also red-pilled militant warriors as well at every level...Come join us in the fight...we have the higher ground on the SJW's in the Church....

I would look at the Orthodox Church as well...

Anonymous Be Deplorable, Not Afraid September 20, 2016 4:07 PM  

Quit that "church." You may have serious troubles with the wife, however. I quit my United Methodist congregation for an Anglican one, and it's been a very good trade for me. The Anglicans have threatened to kick the Episcopalians out over SSM; the Church of England may be next to go.

Blogger Escoffier September 20, 2016 4:19 PM  

Dirtnapninja:

As scripture specifically forbids female preaching that shouldn't come as too big a surprise.

Anonymous The OASF September 20, 2016 4:28 PM  

Well I hope this guy signed pre-nup. But then again, judges usually throw those out of court anyway.

This is a good case study proving that watching the NFL on Sundays is much better for your relationship/marriage than going to Church ever will be.

Rule of thumb: if it's a 501(c)(3) then don't go - it's not a church. That takes care of about 99 percent of them.

Research Dr. Chuck Baldwin's musings on that one. I like his template for a "fellowship" which he's created for his Liberty Fellowship in Montana, hopefully it will be picked up by many more in the country.

Blogger ZaijiaN September 20, 2016 4:32 PM  

Markku wrote:Will do, though I expect this to be very, very simple and straightforward. Nate wants to expand on the idea and create also some materials to go with it, like some do's and don'ts about doing house church, from those who have already been there and so forth. I expect volunteers to come into the picture in those kinds of things rather than creating the system. Unless of course someone wants to volunteer for coding it. If THAT happens, and they have done something similar before, then I'm happy to give the project off my hands.

But either way, this doesn't really require money in the coding phase.


I might be able to pitch in; developer + house church host

Blogger Rambam September 20, 2016 4:33 PM  

The One True Church founded by Jesus?
Read "The Two Babylons" by Alexander Hislop.
Free PDF download.

Blogger tz September 20, 2016 4:38 PM  

@72 - The one thing is that Catholicism has Centuries of developing an standard so know that some things in doctrine can not change any more than the speed of light. That doesn't mean they don't have their equivalent of scienstry or deniers.

But one thing I realized from the juxtaposition of the alt-lite and this thread.

Fatherhood is something like a jungian archetype or a real natural law or something I can't quite put into words.

Heaven is our real FATHERland.
God, the FATHER.

Fathers have daughters, so the king of kings will have the queen of queens and princesses.

Gender goes down to the atom and to the edge of the universe - male electrons around a female nucleus. Sperm around an egg. Stars orbiting a galactic core.

English is an aberration without gendered words. No el v.s. la. But there is a consistency in what cultures considered masculine and feminine (and I hope everyone here has read Lewis' Perelandra).

The popes and bishops can go Borgia or Gamma, but they can't go trans-.

In the early days of movies, priests were portrayed by the most masculine actors (e.g. James Cagney).

Many have been Lambda-ed or Gamma-ed today, but there are still masculine priests.

The downside is you can get stuck in places where the Diocese is nearly completely cucked. Find an old Latin mass.

The strange thing about moving out to Wyoming is the church is normal. They don't feel special or under siege by liberals, they just go about their business, looking for ways to be better Christians and Catholics. Neither backsliding nor legalism. Just a very healthy Gospel attitude. And those who have grown up here don't see it as rare and special not realizing how unusual it is and practically non-existent in heavily blue areas.

Anonymous Camilla Cameo September 20, 2016 4:40 PM  

@62

Aha, another Anglican Ordinariate attendee! Greetings!

We have wonderful liturgy, (basically the TLM in Prayer Book English) and my pastor gives sound, politically incorrect preaching. (He was a very old-fashioned Evangelical before he was Anglican and then Catholic;
first time I'd ever heard an actual hellfire and brimstone sermon!) My one worry about the Ordinariate is that they may be too go-along with (anti?)pope Bergoglio, because we have a more direct relationship with the Vatican than many dioceses. Praying for the reader, and all Christians.

Anonymous jOHN MOSBY September 20, 2016 4:45 PM  

22. Orville
oneplace . com is excellent . I listen to the Baptist Bible Hour with Lasserre Bradley. Jr., a great old school Primitive Baptist preacher.

Blogger Michael September 20, 2016 4:46 PM  

Vox is right ! When my church, went full sjw, I walked out. In my desert journey, I started attending an catholic Christian Church. My wife told me that she would never join me. I told that was up to her, but I was not going to stop going. Much to my surprise, she joined me in the introductory classes. Byou me standing my ground, being the spiritual leader of my family, she decided to join me. So onow your big boy pants and go find where you get your peace and find the Lord. Save your soul, and you wife will follow. BTW in the pew, the followers of Christ are all trying to do the same thing -- serve the Lord!



Anonymous LastRedoubt September 20, 2016 4:48 PM  

@Markku

The app may be useful - though right now I'm even more interested in a way to find out if there are any ilk nearby.

Blogger Cerdic Ricing September 20, 2016 4:55 PM  

I had a similar experience to many of y'all recently. Back at home, the Catholic priest is retired Air Force, and even conceals a pistol during the Mass to protect his sheep, as he's pretty serious about the whole shepherd thing. He gives me hope for the Church by preaching against the evils of consumerism, political correctness, and a few other things.

However, when I went to the Catholic church nearest to me at college, the priest talked about "diversity" and "sharing in humanity" and all that other crap. It immediately came out to me as heresy. He's basically preaching humanism, progressivism, and other such heretical nonsense. It took all of my restraint to not walk out. There's basically two Churches within the Church right now, and the evil one is in charge.

Furthermore, I was taught more progressive heresy in the Catholic schools than even the public school system would throw at me. My children will not be attending Catholic schools, and will more than likely be homeschooled. I'll have to correct any heresy they might hear from the priests as well.

When we clean up the Church, there is going to need to be some massive purges within the clergy. We're going to need a new inquisition to purge out heresy at this point.

Blogger KSC September 20, 2016 5:04 PM  

How can I join the VFM? And/or get involved with this church network?

Blogger KSC September 20, 2016 5:05 PM  

Also, I recommend leaving immediately. I don't advise simply listening to ministries from home; Christ commands his disciples to assemble together in worship. This may mean forming a house church if there are no good ones in your area; if you're in a large, city, though, you can probably find something.

Anonymous patrick kelly September 20, 2016 5:05 PM  

"Read "The Two Babylons" by Alexander Hislop."

What, no Jack Chick?

Blogger Henry September 20, 2016 5:07 PM  

As Christ's Priest to your own home, this is the right thing to do.

St. Luke's Chapel in the Hills (www.stlukeschapel.church) is a traditional Anglican congregation not too far away from you.

Anonymous patrick kelly September 20, 2016 5:08 PM  

"How can I join the VFM? And/or get involved with this church network?"

Must be new, VFM ain't exactly a church network. LOL I did.

Anonymous Be Deplorable, Not Afraid September 20, 2016 5:15 PM  

I wish I knew enough psychology to put together how the swaying guitar kumbaya praise music/overdone social justice/cucky stuff that is the centerpiece of converging/converged chuches has such a hold on women. The feminizing of sermons, that's obvious, I get that part. Maybe it's some amygdala thing. It's like crack for so many people, but just makes me disgusted even thinking of it.

Blogger Zaklog the Great September 20, 2016 5:16 PM  

Would any Catholics here care to help me thrash a cuck asshole over on this Catholic discussion board? The subject at hand is how fantastic and very Christian it is for us to bring into this country thousands of worshippers of an alien murder-god. The cuck in question is Master Samwise.

https://disqus.com/home/discussion/channel-oneholycatholicapostolic/as_catholics_we_must_overcome_partisan_divides_on_migration_issues_says_usccbs_migration_chairman/

Blogger Anonymous-9 September 20, 2016 5:28 PM  

Dear Bay Area Reader: I am so sorry to hear of this. You poor wife is lost, and I believe Vox is right. You must lead the way. To see the situation more clearly you must ask yourself what the teachings say to do when you find yourself surrounded by worldly things and people. I believe your wife has been deceived, and she is blind right now. You, who can see, must lead.

Blogger SirHamster September 20, 2016 5:53 PM  

KSC wrote:How can I join the VFM? And/or get involved with this church network?

VFMs are minions for Vox's Dark Purposes. Ping him at his email to swear your undying allegience.

The church network doesn't exist yet, there are ideas for Markku or other volunteers to create an app tool to help build one.

Vox will probably make a post when it gets moving.

Anonymous simplytimothy September 20, 2016 5:57 PM  

Home-run Vox.

Blogger KSC September 20, 2016 5:58 PM  

@Patrick Kelly

I emailed Vox awhile back but haven't heard anything; I'm not sure if there's a specific process.

Blogger SirHamster September 20, 2016 6:12 PM  

KSC wrote:I emailed Vox awhile back but haven't heard anything; I'm not sure if there's a specific process.

That's the process. Vox has a lot of ongoing projects, so it may take some time for a response.

Blogger Benjamin Kraft September 20, 2016 6:15 PM  

@69. That would be because even the NOTION of a female preacher completely flies in the face of anything and everything biblical. Period.

@72. #1: Anything else is heretical.
#2: Strict but good.
#3: I don't really understand this, except with certain forms of contraception. Time for me to do some research...

Interesting. Obviously hormonals or ligations are unnatural defacements of the body, and day afters kill a fertilized egg.

The Sin of Onan for pulling out, got it, even if I don't necessarily agree with the connection to masturbation. I still feel like he was killed more for both deliberate disobedience and implied mockery of God's will than anything else, TBH.

The argument from condemnation of "pharmakeia" seems pretty debatable, considering it also included abortion and enabled pagan orgies? On top of that the word was, at that time, also a reference to alchemy/sorcery, so... ? On top of that, a lot of the movement against modern contraception seems to come from much later (and seemingly rather liberal) interpretations of the term (on the order of a millennia later, I might add). Considering all of the different connotations it had at that time (paganism/adultery/abortion/sterilization/sorcery) I find it quite difficult to rationalize much more modern re-definitions as entirely accurate.

To me, the best, and strongest argument for this (and the one that changed my mind) is the one that flows "What is the purpose of marriage? To create children. And what is a sin outside of marriage? Sex. And how are children created? Sex."

Marriage exists to create children, no other reason. Sex should not exist outside of marriage. Therefore, if you don't want kids, why are you married? Hedonism? So, Sex is not a good thing outside of the potential to create children? That I can get behind. Oh, and also the command to "Be fruitful and multiply".

Okay, so I've accepted and agree with a (newly, apparently universal previously, until, for some reason, people thought that there was a morally requisite reason for having sex without it being to create children... [WTF?])Catholic doctrine, interesting.

On that note, though, I disagree rather stringently that the Catholic is the only legitimate church, a claim which as far as I know is pretty clearly BS when you consider others, such as the eastern church, among others, let alone the way churches seemed to be clearly and significantly separate entities by nation and city in the new testament. Again, open to debate on the subject.

#4: True, but they were politically co-opted pretty fast last time I can think of them actually exercising those capacities. Only what, the first couple of crusades were really motivated by the church and after that the secular leaders Perhaps you have a better example?

@78. Yeah, there is preexisting knowledge and wisdom that is not held by anything that comes into being within temporal reality. For efficiency, a Father figure passes down the wisdom and knowledge that he has obtained, such that new lives will not be wasted in repetition of already known errors. If the Father loses power, knowledge and wisdom do not continue, and lives are wasted.

The Father archetype would combine and envelop the aspects of protector/provider/instructor, all absolutely necessary. Instructor includes in all ways, including those of faith and spirituality. When Fatherhood is destroyed, civilization cannot exist, and chaos rules.

Blogger Joshua Sinistar September 20, 2016 6:28 PM  

Amazing how many Church goers want to be Good Samaritans. Stay away from these houses of money-grubbers. God needs not your monies. People should simply read their Holy Bibles themselves. If they read the Good Book they should quickly realize that all Samaritans are heretics. There is never enough Good to call heretics anything but sinners and wrongdoers.

Blogger tuberman September 20, 2016 6:40 PM  

#57

You and one other on here make a lot of assumptions without bothering to inquire further, perhaps you should apply for a job at CNN?!

My girlfriend and I were just close friends for the first two years, and she had already been married, and divorced, and has a grown daughter. It was she who did not want to get married, as it would have hurt her finances. The main attraction between us was the affection, that showed in many ways, in fact, I believe it was the strong affection that made the sex so great.

#70 tz

I will address your post with respect, yet I will say that I'm not a passive guy at all, and in some small ways I did lead, as I made most of the choices of what to do together. Yet as you can see I was not dealing with a young girl, and she being in her later 40's was already "set in her ways" to a large extent. As friends we had shared many tastes and attitudes.

Her younger sister mentally attacked me when we started dating and I put her sister in her place, and my girlfriend apologized for what happened. I was at a grocers one time with her, and a minority youth literally picked up a loaf of bread and threw it on the counter in front of us. I said nothing, but picked up the loaf of bread and put it on a display off the checkout counter and simply watched him with my eyes, daring him to do anything. She was probably shocked, but held it all in and said nothing.

What I'm really saying here is we are all living in a somewhat converged, to totally converged society and surroundings, and we are all just now in the process of living and re-learning, as I am fairly Alpha compared to most all of the males I know, yet this last two years has been a major wake-up discovery period, and for far more than just me.

Blogger jdwalker September 20, 2016 6:47 PM  

I live in the bay area and would be interested in whether the reader finds a church that works for them. My church doesn't measure up, which affects my attendance and engagement there, so I would be interested in other options.

Blogger SirHamster September 20, 2016 6:49 PM  

My girlfriend and I were just close friends for the first two years, and she had already been married, and divorced, and has a grown daughter. It was she who did not want to get married, as it would have hurt her finances. The main attraction between us was the affection, that showed in many ways, in fact, I believe it was the strong affection that made the sex so great.

Is it not adultery when you don't marry a divorced woman but sex her anyways?

Does great sex make it God honoring?

Blogger tuberman September 20, 2016 7:01 PM  

#99

Yes, I AM sure I honor God daily, but I AM not too certain about your harsh judgmental soul.

Go away Moral-Signal man.

Blogger SirHamster September 20, 2016 7:06 PM  

tuberman wrote:Yes, I AM sure I honor God daily, but I AM not too certain about your harsh judgmental soul.

Go away Moral-Signal man.



Questions are not judgements.

You are judging yourself, and you are running away from the truth. That's a judgement.

Anonymous simplytimothy September 20, 2016 7:15 PM  

You were worried because your spirit was picking up on the false spirit that entered the church. Now your mind knows what your spirit already knew.

Vox, if you have a few tales tell and the Spirit leads you to it........




God bless.

Blogger Cecil Henry September 20, 2016 7:25 PM  

Yes, the churches are infected with this garbage.

Get OUT. Separate from her my people.

Blogger papabear September 20, 2016 7:32 PM  

If you're anywhere near Los Gatos check out St. Basil Byz Catholic Church.

Anonymous simplytimothy September 20, 2016 7:38 PM  

In Protestant terms, the Spirit is leading the laity to fulfill what the elders/polity will not do.

In Catholic terms, I understand there is a similar doctrine.




Blogger Chris Mallory September 20, 2016 7:46 PM  

@96 "Marriage exists to create children, no other reason."

Book, Chapter and Verse?

Genesis Chapter 2 says Eve was created as a "help meet"(18) and describes marriage in verse 24. No where is it said that the marriage was solely to create children.

1 Corinthians 7:2 says that to avoid fornication we should marry.
"2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband."



1 Corinthians 7:9 implies that marriage in order to sate sexual urges is acceptable.

"9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn."

Both verses and indeed the first 9 verses deal with sexual desire by being married, not having children.

Anonymous Deplorable S E Delenda September 20, 2016 7:49 PM  

@90

Zaklog, already there. He's definitely a social justice zealot, and neither a master or wise.

Anonymous Cadwallander J September 20, 2016 7:51 PM  

Not meaning to derail, but if someone with experience in home church could post a few bullet points on it (pros and cons), that would be appreciated.

Wife and I are a bit demoralized by the pool of Churchianity around us, and are trying to teach the kids at home.

Anonymous Kryst the Conqueror September 20, 2016 8:00 PM  

To the churchians and the protestants:



please, come back to rome.

Blogger S1AL September 20, 2016 8:13 PM  

"To the churchians and the protestants:



please, come back to rome."

What is it with Catholics and their constant need to proselytize within the body?

Blogger Can't wait September 20, 2016 8:56 PM  

New and hopefully respectful.
I have left a couple of churches in the past over doctrinal differences, compromise concerns, SJW silliness. Never made a big scene ("voted with my feet")- which reminds me of Mat 10:13-14 If the household is worthy, let your peace come upon it. But if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet.
Being without a home Church is not good. The Spirit in us longs for communion in The Body and fellowship with The Saints, so it was never easy for me. On the other hand, I have also found great blessing in remaining obedient to The Word. At times it felt I was alone, but I always remembered Elijah's plight in 1 Kings 19. Here Elijah was in a false church environment that he refuse to compromise with and was left seemingly all alone within an evil system. Dismayed, Elijah called out to God, who provided for his immediate needs and Spiritual needs. God reminded Elijah that he was not alone but that HE had reserved 7000 men in spiritual purity. Reading the posts here gives me strength in knowing there are still many Godly men refusing the world, even if I can't see them.
Leaving a fallen church is not easy but true believers in God essentially have no choice. We put our trust solely in Him. He provided for Elijah, He provided for me, and I know He will do the same for you.
I will say I would use different counsel in addressing compromise in a failing Church different that the approach suggested in a failed church. Sobering thought to ponder the warning from Paul of the days we live in. 2 Tim 4:2-4 describes us to rebuke a failing Church and to leave a fallen one.

Blogger bob k. mando ( the hardest troll here ) September 20, 2016 9:46 PM  

97. tuberman September 20, 2016 6:40 PM
My girlfriend and I were just close friends for the first two years, and she had already been married, and divorced, and has a grown daughter. It was she who did not want to get married, as it would have hurt her finances. The main attraction between us was the affection, that showed in many ways, in fact, I believe it was the strong affection that made the sex so great.



there is no assumption, that's a straight up testimony of fornication at a minimum and more likely adultery.

civil divorce has no bearing on a Christian marriage, THAT IS NOT HOW IT'S DISSOLVED.

and seriously, you didn't get married because "it would hurt her finances"?

*facedesk*

well, ya know, sin pays better. so i'ma just do that.

Blogger HardReturn¶ September 20, 2016 9:52 PM  

There's a really old story about frustrated parishioner that once left a note in the pulpit that just had "John 12:21b" written on it ("Sir, we want to see Jesus.")
It can be really tough to leave if your close friends are there. Our family did that about 15 years ago at a certain non-denom church that rapidly converged once leadership changed. Our family has been Lutheran for generations but we'd moved to different city and didn't know anyone and the folks were very kind. Went back to LCMS and stayed put.
My dad was a Lutheran pastor for 50 years, ordained ULC that over decades morphed into ELCA. He filed every sermon he ever gave. There were a few duds in the 60s and 70s but mostly he was unfazed by the fashionable nonsense that crept into the church. After he died I took a couple years to edit and transform the whole collection into a ten-volume set for family, indexed several ways and with some extra flourishes. That's why I rarely commented here a few years back. But working on it gave me insight at a micro level how much changed and stayed the same over the course of hundreds of Sundays.

Blogger Leo Littlebook in Shenzhen September 20, 2016 9:55 PM  

I guess you have to ask yourself whether the Lord is calling you to be bold like Phineas or sneaky like Moses.

Anonymous jOHN MOSBY September 20, 2016 10:17 PM  

"please, come back to rome."
No . Me likee being a Prot.

Anonymous Nergol September 20, 2016 10:29 PM  

For any Catholics in the Bay Area, I recommend St. Margaret Mary near Pill Hill in Oakland. It's an Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest church that does the traditional Latin Mass. Canon Olivier is old-school French Catholic, and won't disappoint you.

Anonymous Stryker September 20, 2016 10:30 PM  

Here is an archive of some of the best and most masculine sermons you will ever read. Went to this church for 17 years and am still good friends with the Pastor. The wedding sermon under the 'Occasional Sermons' was preached at my wedding in 2001. http://htlcms.org/category/sermons/?lang=en_us

Blogger Lazarus September 20, 2016 10:37 PM  

Cadwallander J wrote:Not meaning to derail, but if someone with experience in home church could post a few bullet points on it (pros and cons), that would be appreciated.

Wife and I are a bit demoralized by the pool of Churchianity around us, and are trying to teach the kids at home.


Milk for the babes, meat for the adults.

( You might want to check out the writings of Charles Welch for some raw meat.)

Anonymous Colorado Confederate September 20, 2016 10:50 PM  

Vox's friend's story is EXACTLY the mindset that plunged the New England Puritans in the early 19th century. They maintained their do-gooder zeal while losing their First Love, and thus declined into Abolitionism, spiritism, free-love, and all manner of wickedness. Vox's advice is very sound.

Blogger bob k. mando ( the hardest troll here ) September 20, 2016 11:14 PM  

97. tuberman September 20, 2016 6:40 PM
and she had already been married, and divorced,
...
she being in her later 40's
...
as I am fairly Alpha



you've got to deal more honestly with yourself.

Alphas don't make do with other men's 40 year old cast offs. that's the very definition of Beta Bux.

here's Vox's heirarchy
http://alphagameplan.blogspot.com/2011/03/socio-sexual-hierarchy.html

an intro to AFBB
https://therationalmale.com/2016/03/14/plan-b/

Blogger Gapeseed September 20, 2016 11:22 PM  

St. Dominics in SF was my Church when I lived in the Bay Area. Great community, lovely and majestic decor, and the Taize Mass on Sunday night is simply beautiful.

Anonymous a deplorable rubberducky September 20, 2016 11:30 PM  

We've been dealing with this problem for a long time in the Catholic Church (exhibit A: Pope Francis, gah!), where we call it Liberation Theology. It's an attempt to hijack the Gospel and repurpose it as a tool for social justice. This is heresy. But unfortunately it's very insidious how well the cultural Marxist meme can be wrapped around Christian ideals, and strangle them out. Puts me in the mind of the Parable Of The Sower, and the strangling thorns.

You've got to get away from churches who start succumbing to this. When they brought in a female to lead the service that was the point where they were already too far gone to save. Sorry ladies, but female church leaders will lead the flock into error every time, bank on it, no matter how well intentioned. When you see a woman up there leading the service, you know the snake has already got into the garden. Feminism is an aspect of cultural Marxism, it will act by nature contrary to the Gospel.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash September 20, 2016 11:30 PM  

Contrary to my fellow Catholic above, I would NOT recommend that a Protestant dissatisfied at the worldliness of their church join the Catholic Church indiscriminately. Most priests, even the ones that aren't gay, are effeminate weaklings, most parishes are run by women, most of the bishops are completely cucked.

On the other hand, if you can find the right parish, you will not find a better home.

Catholics in the Portland OR area, check out Holy Rosary near the convention center. Fr Vincent is a strong leader, and Fr Gabriel's sermons are amazing.

Anonymous a deplorable rubberducky September 20, 2016 11:44 PM  

I concur with Snidely Whiplash, FWIW. If you are considering the Catholic Church, find one that that still does the Latin Mass. Ones that do rarely do it exclusively anymore, so you can also attend a mass in English. But if you find ones that still do it, those are the one to start looking at. Stay among these, there's less chance they are cucked and given over to all that's bad about the Second Vatican Council. Just a rule of thumb.

Blogger BunE22 September 20, 2016 11:55 PM  

Yikes.

I just started going to a local non-denom Church and really like the pastor. He just announced that he's taking a 3 month sabbatical and is turning over the ministry to his wife, son-in-law, and a male member of the congregation.

I was concerned because he's just turning it over to these people, but now I'm worried because one is a female.

Should I search for a new Church?

Blogger EscapeVelocity September 21, 2016 12:19 AM  

Pope Francis aint much better.

Blogger Chiva September 21, 2016 12:31 AM  

@BunE22. I would still attend and see how the 3 people divide the responsibilities of the church. It would say a lot about the basic beliefs of the church leadership. I would be most interested in who is assuming the spiritual leadership of the congregation during the pastors absence.

Blogger weka September 21, 2016 1:02 AM  

We don't need a holiness spiral here. We are all sinners saved by grace.

Having said that, converged churches have only the form of religion, and should be avoided.

That includes home churches, Marrku and Nate.

Blogger Zaklog the Great September 21, 2016 1:22 AM  

@107 The hilarious thing (which I've poked him with several times) is when you find out what "Samwise" meant before Tolkien made it a character name, but I'll leave that to your discovery. If you really can't find it, let me know and I'll just tell you.

Anonymous a deplorable rubberducky September 21, 2016 2:01 AM  

Home churches are how it got started, meaning Christians would gather in each others homes. There was always a community that extended out beyond one family structure. It's how we did it when I was a kid, too, we didn't have a church building. We reserved a room on Sundays at a rec center. That church grew like mad, too. Today it has over 40k members, no joke.

There is something to that Parable Of The Sower after all.

And, BunE22, if the woman takes over leading the services yes I'd leave that church and find another. Running the administrative stuff in such a situation, sure. But leading the flock, no. Because as I say, if it has gotten to that point the serpent is already in the garden there, no matter how well meaning and earnest she is and through no fault of her own (she's not the serpent).

Anonymous Deplorable S E Delenda September 21, 2016 2:08 AM  

What is it with Catholics and their constant need to proselytize within the body?

You're kidding, right. If I had a penny for ever "whore of babylon speech" I've heard, I'd buy twitter and diverge it.

Let's be blunt. Martin Luther was the first SJW. He was the guy that decided that marriage was a civil affair and not a Church matter- now the state is deciding sodomy is intercourse.

He also was very soft on Islam.. not unlike the present day SJW's.



Blogger SirHamster September 21, 2016 2:23 AM  

bob k. mando ( the hardest troll here ) wrote:there is no assumption, that's a straight up testimony of fornication at a minimum and more likely adultery.

"Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery."

The only way it isn't adultery is if the problem is putting a ring on her finger, versus fucking her.

Which if true, means that banging all the divorced women out there sans commitment is fair game. tuberman should be proud.

Blogger rho September 21, 2016 3:12 AM  

You were worried because your spirit was picking up on the false spirit that entered the church. Now your mind knows what your spirit already knew. The fact that the good pastor was forced out is a strong indicator that you are dealing with some knowingly evil people here, it's not a series of unfortunate coincidences.

+10 shitlord points if you interrupt the opening prayer with an impromptu game of "Duck-Duck-Goose" as you walk out the door in defiance.

Blogger JP September 21, 2016 4:02 AM  

I watch church sermons on Youtube. It's the future

OpenID anonymos-coward September 21, 2016 4:31 AM  

Martin Luther was the first SJW.

Hardly the first. He was part of an ancient, unbroken tradition that dates back to at least Simon Magus.

Blogger Revelation Means Hope September 21, 2016 5:45 AM  

DDT wrote:Related to this, I'm wondering something.

Has anyone in the ilk ever had experience with being in a leadership position in a Church or church-group, and telling an entryist they're no longer welcome?


Yes. Never, ever a pleasant thing to do, and requires serious prayer and consensus or it will backfire in the short term or long term. But it must be done. Both the Old and New Testament agree on that fact.

Blogger Trid September 21, 2016 7:22 AM  

Lcms is also pretty converged by old women desperate to send white dollars to African heathens.

In fact that's how my last church died

Blogger Trid September 21, 2016 7:23 AM  

Lcms is also pretty converged by old women desperate to send white dollars to African heathens.

In fact that's how my last church died

Anonymous Moonbear September 21, 2016 7:23 AM  

I find it interesting that these people are trying to create a large scale tower of babel.
I do not think the lord they worship is god, and I do not think this lord is of the light.
I do believe he might be angry when he returns, and we know he is coming because Kek's chaos is having profound impact and he is the chaos and darkness before the light.
Praise god, the holy spirit and Kek.

Anonymous zerovectorspace September 21, 2016 7:59 AM  

Convert to Orthodoxy, and return to the foundations of Christianity. There are Orthodox Churches all over the U.S. now.

Russian churches on average will offer the most conservative traditions; Greek and Antiochian churches oftentimes fall under the influences of ecumenism (you don't want that; it's the Catholics and the Protestants pushing Christian "unity", which really means asking Orthodox to compromise tradition or even Tradition). Not to overgeneralize, though; there are a lot of very conservative Greek and Antiochian churches, too. Serbian churches are based, but hard to find.

You might have to unlearn what you have learned quite a bit; there is a catechism if you haven't been baptized by submersion in the name of the Trinity; and there is time spent with the Priest learning and preparing for Chrismation, which is like Catholic Confirmation.

Whatever you decide, may Christ bless you and keep you and guide you. But I would not stay in the church you described, because it is no way a church of Christ.

Anonymous TS September 21, 2016 8:11 AM  

"Home-run Vox."

Yeah it is, the leadership at the top of the pyramid is completely compromised. But then when has it not?

Anonymous FrankNorman September 21, 2016 9:13 AM  

How about not making this into a "join our sect, we're the coolest" contest?

Blogger Aeoli Pera September 21, 2016 9:15 AM  

Utilitarianism drives out morality. That's what it's made to do.

Blogger Markku September 21, 2016 12:14 PM  

Yep, I'm THIS close to start deleting left and right.

OpenID tteclod September 21, 2016 3:27 PM  

I'm an atheist, but even I can lead my wife to a Christian church that isn't degenerate.

Mr. "Bay Area," you need to change churches. Tell your wife you're quitting for another church, and tell your friends at the church why you're leaving. Especially tell the church leadership. I do not regret informing the priest at my wife's former church why she would not be attending, and as a Christian who believes your eternal soul is at stake, you should have fewer worries about this decision than I did.

Blogger Terrekain September 22, 2016 12:40 AM  

It's been known to happen; men who lose their wives, their children, even themselves to cults of various guises, led by people who know how to stab the psychological vulnerabilities of their victims, atomizing the family unit and forming centralized idols of worship in the palm of their hands.

You shirked your duty as head of your family - and it cost you your wife's soul and possibly your own. As you are a hostage to your wife, you're their drone.

You must let her go.

She's already gone.

Once you've overcome this psychological barrier/dependency, you can get to work with the hope of getting her back.

Find a Divorce lawyer. Prepare and review your finances, assets, personal history, liabilities, etc, everything your lawyer might conceivably ask for before meeting him. Lawyers are patient, but the good ones interview people for the privilege of being their clients. Nobody wants to deal with burdensome and unserious idiots. Be honest, don't embellish. The purpose is for you to get advice on where you stand with local laws, develop options, plan contingencies if things go south.

This will supply the information, the leverage, and a source of confidence you'll need to reclaim your wife - if it's possible to reclaim her at all.

Hire a private investigator when the time comes. Your lawyer will tell you how to do this discreetly within the confines of the law. Do not, under any circumstances, inform your wife or act unusually around her, or let her find your electronic trails and research. Don't be cheap either, this is money well spent.

Until your wife has killed that hipster and strangled the NFL player, she's on the other side (I'm only half joking). If you screw up by giving into weakness, you'll have lost your last chance to get her back.

Don't overthink it. Do it. Go get that lawyer. Get your ducks in a row. Action will impel you to ask more questions, gather more information, putting you on track to getting your family back, your life back.

When you're armed and ready, you will have the confidence to confront the pastor, his cult, and your captive woman.

Drive the wedge between them in every facet of her life.

Her life?

It belongs to you.

Her friends?

If they are not your friends, they're not her's. Make her choose.

Her Church?

Where in the Bible is the Priest the head of your family?

Her home?

She doesn't have one. It's your House.

Her Bed?

Same. She belongs in it.

Divorce is the nuclear weapon in your arsenal, implied but never spoken of, until you know for sure. The first line of defense and the last. Don't say it unless you mean it. Once said, it's done.

If the woman chooses the cult over you - well, now you know, and you've done everything you can as a man.

Begin divorce proceedings immediately, and do not back down even if she pretends to submit. Broken faith is irrecoverable; divorce is just the formality. Do not accept marriage counseling. If you have children, they will suffer the most when these things are allowed to fester. Find someone else with a clean conscience and a new appreciation for what it means to be a husband and a wife, someone worthy of the rest of your life.

You did it right, and you still lost - that's life.

But this is an unlikely outcome.

If she's salvageable, if you go to war to preserve the peace - if you steel your resolve and identify what you want (rather than what you think she wants) - you'll definitely get her back. I know of only one instance where this last-ditch effort succeeded, and the reason why that's the case is because I've only seen it tried once. The truth is that people in your position are too long gone and too demoralized to actually go through with it. They procrastinate. They make excuses. They grasp at false hopes.

Fight. Get your life on track one way or another, and give your wife the chance to come back to you.

Good Luck.

And God Bless.

Blogger Revelation Means Hope September 22, 2016 3:31 AM  

How serious are you about saving your wife? Can you not find a job that requires the whole family to move? And in the new location, find a non-converged church.

It is commendable that your wife get involved in ministries as long as she continues to take care of business with home first and foremost. Just make sure they are more like Dorcus and less like BLM

Blogger Mother Effingby September 22, 2016 5:03 AM  

@147 Apparently, you have never tried to move someplace that has a perfect unconverged church. Unless yourbpostbis sarchasm and I didn't get it.

Blogger bob k. mando ( the hardest troll here ) September 22, 2016 1:39 PM  

132. SirHamster September 21, 2016 2:23 AM
The only way it isn't adultery is if the problem is putting a ring on her finger, versus fucking her.


bigamy is merely one subset of adultery.

adultery does NOT require the man and woman to marry each other, it requires only that they be fucking someone who is married to someone else. ie - only one party need be married

which is why i phrased that the way i did. the NT *does* seem to give permission for divorce ... in the very rare cases that the spouse who left is NOT CHRISTIAN.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+7%3A10-17&version=KJV

or if the other believing spouse is in a continuing situation of Adultery.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+19%3A8-9&version=KJV

IF the woman is Christian
AND her husband was not in Adultery or an unbeliever *who left* ( no wifely initiated divorce possible ),
THEN this is a slam dunk admission of Adultery on tublecane's part.

Blogger SirHamster September 22, 2016 3:25 PM  

@bob

Note that the other Gospels use the wording I quoted, which provide no escape clause at all. All cases of marrying divorced women are adultery.

Deep Strength has a blogpost breaking down why Matthew is worded differently, but ultimately means the same thing. ("What God has joined, let man not separate")

Anonymous Dormouse September 22, 2016 8:03 PM  

Check out chipbrogden.com

Anonymous jOHN MOSBY September 23, 2016 12:37 AM  

college feat. Electric Youth. A Real Hero.
Good stuff.

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