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Wednesday, September 21, 2016

Of Alt-West and Alt-White

The question is not whether there are at least two distinct branches of the Alt-Right already or not, but whether the Alt-White branch can get its swastika panties sufficiently unbunched to cooperate with the Alt-West and the Alt-Lite in the pursuit of its stated objectives, or if it is more interested in competitive navel-gazing and purity-spiraling.

After a few run-ins with true-believing Stormfronters who have been Alt-Right since the distant dawn of primordial identity politics in 2010, both here and on Twitter, it has become abundantly clear that the combination of a legitimate fear of entryism and an understandable case of spotlight envy, the Alt-White is having some serious trouble dealing with the inevitable problems of success and popularity.

It's rather like a company that has sales that are rapidly growing. The increase in demand for your products is great, but it is still a real problem. How are you going to get the additional products made? How are you going to pay for them? Are these new customers going to stick around or will they disappear before you can even expand your manufacturing capacity? These are good problems to have, but they are definitely problems that will need to be addressed.

First, is a distinction really necessary? Yes, without question. This should be obvious, since Alt-White, Alt-West, and Alt-Light are all different strains of identity-based thought that are all also observably distinct from mainstream conservatism or libertarianism. In this sense, all three are ALTernatives to the traditional RIGHT. Hence the Spencer-coined term.

Second, should all three be considered Alt-Right? Here I would argue no, that while it is reasonable to describe both Alt-White and Alt-West as Alt-Right, the Alt-Lite should not be. The reason is that while both Alt-White and Alt-West sign on to the greater part of the 16 Points of the Alt-Right I've laid out, and which most Alt-Rightists have generally endorsed, the various people who make up the Alt-Lite are all over the place with regards to most of them.

The Alt-Lite, in other words, is the larval form of the Alt-Right, which means that they are not, practically speaking, Alt-Right in any meaningful or functional sense. They are merely those still undergoing the intellectual transition that most Alt-Rightists have made, at one point or another. Alt-Lite is a transitional stage, not an end point.

By contrast, the Alt-White and Alt-West are both destinations. Once one gravitates towards one branch or the other, or as may be the case, is directed there by virtue of one's identity, one is simply not going to eventually move towards the other one. This leads us to the third question, what are the key differences between the Alt-White and the Alt-West. The following are my observations; I am quite willing to be corrected by someone who can speak more credibly for the Alt-White.

  1. Alt-White is for whites only. Alt-West is pan-racial and pan-national, which should not be confused with being multicultural or equalitarian or pro-diversity in the egalitarian sense.
  2. Alt-White is primarily concerned with white nationalism, and secondarily concerned with European nationalisms. Within the Alt-White, there is already a discussion concerning what the difference between a generic white nationalism and the specific European nationalisms are; I suspect there will eventually be a further distinction between American and European branches of the Alt-White. While the Alt-West supports white nationalism, that is not its sole concern, as it supports all nationalism, European or otherwise.
  3. Alt-White is neutral to hostile on Christianity. Alt-West is strongly pro-Christian, as it believes Christianity to be one of the three pillars of Western Civilization aka the historical Christendom. Pro-Christian includes, but does not require, actually being a Christian.
  4. Alt-White is neutral to hostile on Israel. Alt-West is pro-Israel, as it supports all nationalist homelands.
  5. Alt-White is hostile to very hostile to all Jews everywhere. Alt-West is friendly to Israeli Jews while hostile to globalist Jews and anti-nationalist Jews.
  6. Alt-White has a romantic view of National Socialism. Alt-West regards it as a suicidally stupid but semiotically useful form of German nationalism.
  7. Alt-White is neutral to pro-white imperialism. Alt-West is anti-imperialism, as it regards imperalism as being societally enervating and self-destructive.
As you can see, within the context of both the 16 Points and the grand political spectrum, Alt-White and Alt-West are largely in accord. They generally share a philosophy and a direction, but their priorities and perspectives are different. More importantly, with the possible exception of Christianity in the long term, there is very little reason for conflict between Alt-White and Alt-West, indeed, the distinction between the two eliminates the Alt-White's primary objection to the Alt-West, which is the possibility of  being sidelined by the media and by the larger potential appeal of the Alt-West.

Some have accused me, and Milo, and several others, of wanting to assume the mantle of leading the Alt-Right. That is the exact opposite of the truth. In fact, one personal benefit of articulating the distinction between the two primary branches of the Alt-Right is that it makes it clear that a) there can be no unitary leader, and b) even if there could be, that unitary leader could not possibly be me due to my identity as an American Indian and member of La Raza.

The more significant benefit is to quell the fears of the Alt-White that they will be sidelined by their more numerous allies. But the Alt-West needs nothing from the Alt-White, and by establishing a separate identity, a much broader spectrum of members are made possible while respecting the rigid borders of the Alt-White. Regardless, the simple fact of the matter is that the Alt-White is not the only alternative to mainstream conservatism.

There are much bigger battles ahead than settling the question of whether Christianity is a necessary component of Western Civilization or not. Because we know the white race is absolutely a necessary component of it, and that is why, whether one is inclined towards the Alt-White or the Alt-West, every member of the Alt-Right who values both whites and the West has immediate and mid-range objectives remain exactly the same.

As before, this is not intended to be a definitive delineation of the differences between the two branches of the Alt-Right, but the starting point for an intelligent discussion. Keep it civil and substantive as those more interested in posturing will be spammed. As for those who will claim that Alt-West, Alt-White, and Alt-Lite are not genuine "things", keep in mind that as a political taxonomist, I am creating nothing. I am merely describing what observably already exists.

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352 Comments:

1 – 200 of 352 Newer› Newest»
Anonymous Napoleon 12pdr September 21, 2016 11:13 AM  

Vox, I think the greatest of your talents may be a gift for taxonomy. This is very good work.

Blogger Deplorable Gaiseric September 21, 2016 11:21 AM  

I don't think the conflict, such as it is, between the Alt-West and the Alt-White is rational, but is rather emotional. Many in the Alt-West have been so thoroughly indoctrinated in the notion that the Alt-White, under other names, labels or banners, is the evil to end all evils, that they simply will never be comfortable allies with them. The Alt-White's diffidence in accepting Christianity and romantic attachments to German National Socialism also is a major turn-off.

The Alt-White, used as they are to being slagged by anyone and everyone, are also emotionally attached to their identity as Alt-Whiters (again, under different labels, names and banners) and are both defensive and hostile towards anyone from outside, even if these outsiders agree with them for the most part with regards to short and medium term goals and methods. In my own observation, they tend to have created an ideology around identity, and are very fond of purity tests and purgings; plus, I think there's a fair bit of the same kind of phenomena when a beloved indie band gets big, and suddenly the emotional attachment to liking these guys who are off the mainstream radar gets substituted for seeing them as sell-outs. I think many Alt-Whiters relish their political and social status as outsiders and rebels and are mistrustful of success and growth; that they'll lose their carefully cultivated identity if the movement becomes more mainstream. This also explains their love of purity tests; so that they can maintain the notion that they're out there on the fringe, doing their own thing, not part of some mainstream movement. Who wants to be part of a mainstream movement? Not them. If it's not outre, it's not cool anymore.

This also explains why Alt-Westers might often find Alt-Whiters frustrating and non-dependable allies. And because the issues that divide them are questions of identity and other strongly held emotions, I don't know that appeal to strategic wisdom or even tactical accuity are going to bridge the distinction very well.

Blogger Dave Narby September 21, 2016 11:22 AM  

Off topic, but of note:

This lefty site I have been following for some years mainly as a "canary in a coal mine" (when they pull their head out of their ass with respects to their establishment analingus, I can assume the "big reset" is nigh) has published an anti-immigration piece:

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2016/09/negative-effects-of-immigration-on-the-economy.html

The comments are uncharacteristic as well.

So - we draw closer...

Anonymous Euryale September 21, 2016 11:23 AM  

There are anti-game tendencies in the Alt-White. State-enforced race laws would be a natural expression of such tendencies.

The Alt-West is more about patriarchy and freedom — and I would argue that patriarchy has the advantage of spontaneously producing 90-95% of the outcome desired by the Alt-White, sans the totalitarian State.

Blogger Brian S September 21, 2016 11:27 AM  

Can Isreal survive on it's own... as in, without US aid, foreign policy, and having a revolving door of dual citizenship for their elite to take power positions in the western countries?

Blogger VD September 21, 2016 11:28 AM  

Can Isreal survive on it's own... as in, without US aid, foreign policy, and having a revolving door of dual citizenship for their elite to take power positions in the western countries?

Without question. They survived previously without the "benefit" of most of that in a considerably more precarious position.

Blogger slarrow September 21, 2016 11:31 AM  

I think these terms will have resonance. In Milo and Allum's article on the alt-right, they had a section called "Natural Conservatives" that certainly described my leanings more than the 1488 or Stormfront positions. But Milo describes a tendency; "Alt-West" describes an ideology and thus, I think, will have staying power.

The Alt-Lite is useful in awakening people to the fact that what they value as "good" is under attack and that those other guys on the alt-right are the only options to defend those values. Once they start paying attention to that, then more of them will question whether those values are indeed "good" and begin drifting into the other camps. The primary question, though, is figuring out just how late it is, realizing that it's probably later than you think.

Blogger Deplorable Gaiseric September 21, 2016 11:34 AM  

@7: The Alt-Right is a more dispersed preference cascade trigger than Paine's Common Sense but the effect will be, I think, the same.

Blogger Rabbi B September 21, 2016 11:36 AM  

Can Isreal survive on it's own... as in, without US aid, foreign policy, and having a revolving door of dual citizenship for their elite to take power positions in the western countries?

No, they cannot survive on their own, but they can survive without US or any other kind of foreign aid, and the sooner they learn to do so the better.

Look, I know you are depending on Egypt, that splintered reed of a staff, which pierces the hand of anyone who leans on it! Such is Pharaoh king of Egypt to all who depend on him.(cf. Isaiah 36; Ezekiel 29)

Anonymous Darth Dharmakīrti September 21, 2016 11:36 AM  

I'm still trying to process and organize my thoughts on this, but I think any taxonomy of the Alt-Right has to address "race realism." I wrote a blog post on this yesterday and I'm very interested in any feedback anyone might have. But in brief, it seems to me that one way of thinking about the difference between Alt White and Alt West (or at least Alt Lite) is the idea that race has a trans-empirical existence.

In that post I said that the difference between what I was defining as "strong" vs. "weak" race realism is the idea that race either does or does not come with political and ethical implications. That's somewhat imprecise, because clearly VD (and the Alt West generally) thinks that race entails an ethical demand for an ethnonationalist state. But, at least from what I've read so far, it seems like what differentiates VD from the 1488ers on the question of race realism is the idea that race exists as a sui generis moral and ontological category. Maybe that's another helpful way to think about the positions that are developing.

Blogger WebTrafficBuilder September 21, 2016 11:37 AM  

How can Israel survive on its own when ISIS is their certified #1 enemy who is constantly attacking them with rabid bus drivers, night club shootings or political killings.

How will Israel finally beat their arch rival ISIS with anything less than the sum of 3 Billion US Federal Reserve Notes?

Blogger Jimmy The Freak September 21, 2016 11:37 AM  

The #AltRight is the big tent. The #AltLite is the welcoming committee that runs the mixers and open parties. The #AltWest are the people who show up for every event and keep the tent growing. The #AltWhite are the guys in the corner of the tent bitching about how the new guys just don't get it.

Blogger VD September 21, 2016 11:39 AM  

it seems to me that one way of thinking about the difference between Alt White and Alt West (or at least Alt Lite) is the idea that race has a trans-empirical existence.

I haven't thought about it much, but my impression is that the Alt-West is actually more race-realist than the Alt-White. They tend to get a little mystical about it.

Blogger James Dixon September 21, 2016 11:39 AM  

> Can Isreal survive on it's own...

Does God want it to? If so, yes.

Blogger WebTrafficBuilder September 21, 2016 11:40 AM  

And the Alt White is not for "whites only".

They just want to stop the influx invasion of nonwhites by the globalist agendas. Its not the goal to have an completely white nationalist state (one can dream) they just don't want to be minorities in their own country.

This is a natural tribalistic response to a predatory threat. And until the (((antagonists))) are called out and removed from their influence, white populations will continue to be destroyed.

Because without Alt-White, there is no Alt-West

Blogger Aeoli Pera September 21, 2016 11:44 AM  

Excellent explanation.

Blogger Were-Puppy September 21, 2016 11:46 AM  

@11 WebTrafficBuilder
How can Israel survive on its own
---

Who cares, let them figure it out. We have to decide how we can survive before beginning to worry about them.
One way or another, they will be on their own. It might be because we decide to stop wasting all our money on them, or it might be because we cease to exist.

Anonymous DissidentRight September 21, 2016 11:46 AM  

Re: 1 & 2. Alt-White and Alt-West both agree that the West is white (if you are non-white you not part of the West).

While Alt-West is transracial and transnational in principle, I am not sure if we are really that much more concerned about other races and nationalities than Alt-White is. And as far as I can tell, Alt-White nominally supports (or is least openly tolerant of) the existence of sovereign non-white nations outside of the West.

Re: 6. Notably, lacking a romantic view of Nazis is not the same thing as accepting that everything that has ever been written about Nazis, the Holocaust, and Hitler is true.

Blogger CM September 21, 2016 11:47 AM  

Excellent. I am Alt-West flavored.

Anonymous Darth Dharmakīrti September 21, 2016 11:47 AM  

I haven't thought about it much, but my impression is that the Alt-West is actually more race-realist than the Alt-White. They tend to get a little mystical about it.

Exactly. This is why I introduced the idea of a "strong" (Alt White) vs. "weak" (Alt West) race realism. Everybody agrees that race is a real biological universal, like mammary glands in mammals. The question is whether or not that biological universal has some kind of "mystical" import, apart from its mere existence.

Blogger Brian S September 21, 2016 11:50 AM  

"Who cares, let them figure it out."

In principle I agree, but they seem to be in direct opposition to letting whites live on their own, and have worked their way into positions to prevent it.

Blogger VD September 21, 2016 11:50 AM  

And the Alt White is not for "whites only".

You haven't spoken with enough of them, obviously. They're pretty forthright about that.

I am not sure if we are really that much more concerned about other races and nationalities than Alt-White is

We are open to it. They are very much not.

Blogger CM September 21, 2016 11:51 AM  

While Alt-West is transracial and transnational in principle, I am not sure if we are really that much more concerned about other races and nationalities than Alt-White is. And as far as I can tell, Alt-White nominally supports (or is least openly tolerant of) the existence of sovereign non-white nations outside of the West.

-----------
I like the idea of a progression. I find it distateful to address our citizenry's demographics at this point in time as there are other issues to deal with such as stopping the tidal wave of more.

I can live with transracial citizens if we stem the flow of more coming in. The Alt-White is a progression past that.

Blogger Amy September 21, 2016 11:52 AM  

In re point number one, perhaps "pan-racial" and "pan-national" are better descriptors. Alt Right encompasses many and all who ally, but no one is in genetic or cultural transit from one race or nation to another.

Blogger Were-Puppy September 21, 2016 11:53 AM  

@15 WebTrafficBuilder
And the Alt White is not for "whites only".
---

After spending maybe 1 week on Twitter, I have to disagree. It's easy to tell the difference there between alt-white and alt-x. Everything they tweet about is about WN. I don't have a problem with that.

I do find it interesting that during islamic bombings and the chimpout yesterday, they are mostly discussing jews.

Whereas the alt-west and alt-light are happily pounding away on Skittlery Clinton, Dindus, and I KEEL U's.

I'm not even sure the alt-white can differentiate between ferals and non-ferals.

The thing is, I don't care either way, if that makes them happy.

It's like the Cruzlims issue all over again. Shall we argue about the wall paper while the house is on fire?

The number one threat at this moment is globalists. A shitload of them are Jews. Hildebeast, Merkel, OHammed and a ton of our other leaders are not.

They all need to go down.

Blogger Unknown September 21, 2016 11:54 AM  

as a political taxonomist I am creating nothing

As slippery as an eel.

Blogger Deplorable Gaiseric September 21, 2016 11:54 AM  

WebTrafficBuilder wrote:And the Alt White is not for "whites only".

They just want to stop the influx invasion of nonwhites by the globalist agendas. Its not the goal to have an completely white nationalist state (one can dream) they just don't want to be minorities in their own country.

This is a natural tribalistic response to a predatory threat. And until the (((antagonists))) are called out and removed from their influence, white populations will continue to be destroyed.

Because without Alt-White, there is no Alt-West

I don't think you're getting exactly what is meant by Alt-White. You're just looking at the label and supplying your own definition.

The Alt-White is the old Stormfronter crowd, more or less. The Alt-West is certainly pro-White, but that is not the same as the Alt-White.

OpenID paworldandtimes September 21, 2016 11:55 AM  

There are anti-game tendencies in the Alt-White.

Not at all. There is a disingenuous line of thought that Game alone, like magic vibrations, will keep a nation's wives and daughters in line in the aggregate.

But that's an ahistoric attitide. Outside of PUA niche discussion  (which in its nihilistic form has become a 2009-era relic), it's understood that the very freedom and patriarchy that are lauded later in that same comment -- are precisely the "anti-game" mechanisms that have always been part of the Western tradition, and part of every other K-selected nation's tradition.

PA

Anonymous Sharrukin September 21, 2016 11:55 AM  

VD September 21, 2016 11:39 AM

"I haven't thought about it much, but my impression is that the Alt-West is actually more race-realist than the Alt-White. They tend to get a little mystical about it."

Isn't that a requirement for any long term social institution? Marriage, patriotism, fatherhood, nationalism, national history, etc. They all get mythologized to some extent.

You set them aside as inviolate, sacred, and not to be trifled with alongside a healthy dose of hypocrisy. Those myths can get corrupted or co-opted in self destructive ways but I think they are needed in the long term.

Blogger Were-Puppy September 21, 2016 11:58 AM  

@21 Brian S
"Who cares, let them figure it out."

In principle I agree, but they seem to be in direct opposition to letting whites live on their own, and have worked their way into positions to prevent it.
---

Maybe I misunderstood. I thought you were talking about Israel. In the case of the endlessly meddling globalist Jews, I'm with you. I am ok with the nation of Israel, and in fact, wouldn't mind all the meddlers to be sent to live there and leave the rest of us the hell alone :P

Blogger Aeoli Pera September 21, 2016 11:58 AM  

Darth Dharmakīrti wrote:But, at least from what I've read so far, it seems like what differentiates VD from the 1488ers on the question of race realism is the idea that race exists as a sui generis moral and ontological category. Maybe that's another helpful way to think about the positions that are developing.

This is a good thing to distinguish. The 1488ers generally hold that the "nation state" is a conscious entity similar to a tribal god. It's the Gnostic idea of "incorporation" applied to a national unit rather than a business unit. The American version of this is caught up in the cult of positive thinking, i.e. shaping reality through strong belief (and attracting like-minded vital/spiritual energy).

Blogger S1AL September 21, 2016 12:00 PM  

Vox, I think you're understating the conflict between West and White here.

1) Alt-White is not merely neutral to hostile on the issue of Christianity, it is fundamentally opposed to it - on issues ranging from recognizing a higher authority than the state to being rooted in Judaism.

2) Part of the above is that it is rooted in National Socialist thinking, which means that (a) the state is supreme, (b) the family is not valued, (c) the individual is irrelevant; all of these conflict directly with fundamental tenets of Alt-West.

3) Purity obsession will lead to direct conflict in the short term, not the middle or long terms. And I don't just mean from the Alt-White side.

4) Alt-White is non-American, demonstrated by their obsession with non-American figures and non-American bloodlines.

5) Alt-White does not, and cannot, coexist in the middle term.

Anonymous Deplorable Me September 21, 2016 12:00 PM  

Keep it civil and substantive as those more interested in posturing will be spammed.
Do you even realize that you started the post with insults?

but whether the Alt-White branch can get its swastika panties sufficiently unbunched to cooperate with the Alt-West and the Alt-Lite in the pursuit of its stated objectives, or if it is more interested in competitive navel-gazing and purity-spiraling.
Or is that considered civil here?

Alt-White is neutral to hostile on Israel. Alt-West is pro-Israel, as it supports all nationalist homelands.
What does pro-Israel mean? And why is it important for the Alt-West to be pro Israel. Is the same courtesy extended to all nationalist homelands or are some more equal than others? Say Israel is attacked by another nationalist homeland. Would Alt-West countries jump up and put boots on the ground to fight for Israel. If yes, why?. Say Israel does attack another nationalist homeland. Would the Alt-West countries jump up and put boots on the ground to stop Israel?

Anonymous ZhukovG September 21, 2016 12:00 PM  

I had been inclined to include Alt-Lite as part of the Alt-Right, but I can see the sense in viewing them as a Transitional Form.

I think it also important to remember that not all Alt-White folks are fighting to play the part of Ernst Rohm in a reenactment of 'Night of the Long Knives'. Some, rather than being Nazi Idolaters, just want to see National Socialism given a chance.

While a prefer something more akin to National Libertarian, I would still prefer to live under National Socialism than Globalist Capitalism.

Blogger Nick S September 21, 2016 12:01 PM  

I like alternatives without extravagant militant antipathy. Justifiable antipathy is another thing if it can be clearly, comprehensively and concisely explicated. Bad X doesn't cut it for me.

Blogger Bard September 21, 2016 12:01 PM  

The Alt-White rhetorical image is too strong. It hinders the objectives with connotation of Hitler and the Aryan brotherhood made popular in movies. Alt-West is more accurate, especially for Christians and more palpable to the Alt-Lite. We achieve Alt-West goals and they achieve theirs. Does that necessarily work in reverse?

Anonymous Moonbear September 21, 2016 12:01 PM  

It is a huge mistake to lump Alt-white and NatSoc together, you really need to think about the construction of the word when you say this Vox, and then when you say "Alt-White is for whites only. Alt-West is transracial and transnational.", "While the Alt-West supports white nationalism, that is not its sole concern."
Kind of makes it sound like the white identity in the western world isn't important, and that there exist western countries that are not white.
You have effectively made white identity a negative association within the Alt-West by associating every white nationalist with Nazis.
You just did the left's job for them, white nationalism is impossible if it floats on the backs of a failed ideology, therefore Alt-west will also fail.

Blogger Samuel Nock September 21, 2016 12:02 PM  

Outstanding post. Vox may not be _the_ leader of the Alt Right, but with the body of work he has produced over the last year or so -- SJWs Always Lie, Cuckservative, major posts such as this one -- he has clearly established himself as its most important thinker and philosopher. Even the litany of terms that Vox has either coined himself or of which he has been the main popularizer shows his absolute centrality and importance to this movement: Cuckservative, SJW, Alt-West, Alt-White, Magin Dirt, Churchian, etc etc. Truly a great man.

Anonymous Supertankers of Deplorable Spartacus September 21, 2016 12:04 PM  

there can be no unitary leader, and b) even if there could be, that unitary leader could not possibly be me due to my identity as an American Indian and member of La Raza. -Vox

It just never gets old.

Anonymous Coal Fired Brisket September 21, 2016 12:04 PM  

Vox, I would like to hear your opinion on how to push the american trade unions in an alt right direction. Speaking with state level labor leadership most of their members are alt lite or moving in that direction. From my understanding the european trade unions are nationalistic. This is a long term project I hope to embark on and I would like your opinion.

Blogger Mountain Man September 21, 2016 12:06 PM  

"The Alt-Lite is useful in awakening people to the fact that what they value as "good" is under attack and that those other guys on the alt-right are the only options to defend those values."

Without a doubt. It was the information put out by the JBS, followed by Lew Rockwell that broke me from the matrix. Since then my views have pivoted a bit from paleo-libertarian to more Alt-West.

Anonymous Hezekiah Garrett September 21, 2016 12:07 PM  

@33 Found the globalist!

Blogger Samuel Nock September 21, 2016 12:07 PM  

"Alt-White is neutral to hostile on Israel."

They are conflicted on Israel. Some of them -- such as Greg Johnson and Kevin MacDonald -- voice support for Israel / Zionism but at the same time their overall views on Jews cannot avoid leaving one to feel that they don't really mean it. I don't mean to attribute bad faith to them. They are conflicted about it, understandably because even as they are trying to be charitable in advocating nationalism for all peoples, including Jews, their understanding of the Jewish people makes it difficult to maintain that charitable view.

Anonymous Napoleon 12pdr September 21, 2016 12:09 PM  

I think the pan-nationalism of the Alt-West can be used as a selling point. We support a homeland for everybody, not just for ourselves.

In other words, we believe in diversity...unlike the Left, which tries to shove everybody into either the Rulers, the Ruled, or the Scapegoats.

Blogger Samuel Nock September 21, 2016 12:10 PM  

@4 @28

"There are anti-game tendencies in the Alt-White."

I think @4 is onto something here. If one reads people such as Greg Johnson, Ted Sallis and even Richard Spencer, there is a definite distaste with game. They acknowledge the truth of sex roles and patriarchy but they reject the MO and mindset of the game community.

Blogger Were-Puppy September 21, 2016 12:10 PM  

@32 S1AL

2) Part of the above is that it is rooted in National Socialist thinking
---

Socialism and all Marxism must die, in my humble opinion.

Blogger Amy September 21, 2016 12:10 PM  

VERY interesting comments there. Showing some waking-up on the part of libertarians and lefty sympathizers.

My favorite comment was about landscapers. If you work outside and/or with your hands all day, why would you want to spend thousands of dollars on a piece of paper so you could work inside all day?

There is so much to unravel and analyze there. Some people have neither intellectual capacity nor desire to do corporate jobs, nor do they want to be drones.

There is, indeed, a turning. Ironically (heh) the hipsters and their rooftop crafted beeswax shaving cream might be the unwitting vanguards of the made by me, tangible end product respect that we've been missing.

Most of my life people talked about respect for the working man, but it was lip service, void of substance. The dignity of a job that suits your ability, if not also your interests, must be reclaimed.

Blogger dc.sunsets September 21, 2016 12:11 PM  

This is what I've predicted all along.

For decades the bovine masses clustered in an undifferentiated, muddy middle (nearer the left side of the XY plot) but few were enthusiastic supporters of the Left-Lunatic Cult.

Now we approach a major turn, and the masses of people are abandoning that muddy middle and shooting in every direction, with the hardest Left-Lunatic Zealots moving even further left, but ALT this and ALT that are attracting zealous adherents from among the previously disinterested masses of people.

Political triangulation worked before, but from now on it will be impossible. Appeasing one group will enrage everyone else.

The politics of The Median only works when there's actually a dominant Median. Eventually, I have no doubt that bullets will fly over who tries to control the Political Apparatus. This is what "diversity" gets us.

Just wait until YT face-plants due to the credit bubble bursting. YT's tolerance for Invite-the-World, BLM, Tranny Times, Rape-Culture BS, etc. will crater and the nation's politics will turn from water to ICE.

The Alt-Right/White/Lite thing is an indication that the trend change has begun in earnest.

Blogger Aeoli Pera September 21, 2016 12:12 PM  

As a rule, the 1488ers hate Christians because that is our primary identity, more important than race. This violates the positive thinking aspect of their religion and they view us as race traitors (although in their minds everything is framed in sorta mystical ideology terms).

I expect that Europeans only feel this way if they are also neo-pagans who are butthurt over the introduction of Christianity.

Blogger Deplorable Gaiseric September 21, 2016 12:13 PM  

Deplorable Me wrote:What does pro-Israel mean? And why is it important for the Alt-West to be pro Israel. Is the same courtesy extended to all nationalist homelands or are some more equal than others? Say Israel is attacked by another nationalist homeland. Would Alt-West countries jump up and put boots on the ground to fight for Israel. If yes, why?. Say Israel does attack another nationalist homeland. Would the Alt-West countries jump up and put boots on the ground to stop Israel?
Sigh. I should just tell you to do your own research and read posts with the alt-right tag, but I'm feeling a little generous today, so I'll actually answer your questions.
1) Israel for the Jews
2) Because every country for its own nationals.
3) Same courtesy to all.
4) No
5) No

Seriously; read the 16 points before you ask obvious questions about the 16 Points next time.

Blogger Orville September 21, 2016 12:13 PM  

I think of this as more points on a spectrum. I very much like Alt-West, but certain aspects of Alt-White appeal too, while the nuttier Alt-White stuff doesn't appeal to me.

I think too, what we are seeing is a secular change in society ala Strauss and Howe. To be sure, people will attempt to get in front and lead, but clearly this is the incoming zeitgeist.

Anonymous Deplorable Jack Amok September 21, 2016 12:14 PM  

The Alt-Lite, in other words, is the larval form of the Alt-Right ... They are merely those still making the transition that most Alt-Rightists, at one point or another, have made.

That sounds about right. I've called the Alt-Right people who both understand and accept the realities around race and culture. The Alt-Lite would be those who understand but don't yet accept. They'd like to find a solution that doesn't require abandoning the Melting Pot myth. They still want to be invited to cocktail parties with "No Deplorables" on the door.

Jimmy calling them the welcoming party is great. It's the first step most people will (or have) taken to the Alt-Right. We should treat them as what they are - people who are smart enough and aware enough to see reality, but who haven't yet overcome emotional conditioning. They're frequent allies and potential recruits, but we can't trust their strategy or decision making until they overcome their conditioning and jump into the basket with us.

Blogger Mountain Man September 21, 2016 12:14 PM  

"How can Israel survive on its own when ISIS is their certified #1 enemy"

The wars fought by them, via proxy ( US), created the vacuum for ISIS to thrive.
The cynic in me says that was the goal all along. With Arafat dead they needed a new "enemy". The bought and paid politicians in DC and their globalist and military industrial Masters were more than willing to oblige.
Hell- there was a lot of money to be made !
Meanwhile Israel had a convenient "enemy" for their K street lobbyists to use as a justification to keep the foreign aid sugar flowing.

Anonymous GREG NIKOLIC September 21, 2016 12:14 PM  

Let’s get this out of the way first: It is important for the alt-Right that Trump win the election. But his natural braggadocio self-confidence can get in the way of his smooth path to victory, and his complacency may doom him.

He should forget about the black vote. He’s not getting it. And while he’s at it, he should be realistic about the Jewish, Vietnamese, and other votes. But what he can work on is women.

Trump is an alpha male. He’s got that going for him — it’s what propelled John F. Kennedy over the top against cold-faced, flabby Nixon, and it’s something he should sell massively and repeatedly.

As an alpha male, Trump should be out there stepping up to girls, putting his hands all over them, domineering them and impressing them — startling and surprising them. Shock the female viewer out of her complacency. Women expect men to [. . .]

[rest of the article in its entirety at my website, www.eliteavenue.wordpress.com]

Blogger bob k. mando ( the hardest troll here ) September 21, 2016 12:16 PM  

2. Deplorable Gaiseric September 21, 2016 11:21 AM
The Alt-White's diffidence in accepting Christianity and romantic attachments to German National Socialism also is a major turn-off.



actually, the various strains of White Nationalism which wish to go the National Socialist / Fascist route aren't "Alternative Right" at all.

they are Alternative Left. and it was predicted that they would arise as Alternative Left ( nationalist socialist as opposed to the orthodox International Proletariat ) parties by Marx himself.

and a great deal of their antipathy for the Alternative Right is founded on this fact.

'nationalism' says nothing about the type of government you desire, only that you have no wish to be dictated to by foreigners.

Blogger praetorian September 21, 2016 12:16 PM  

Excellent demarcation.

Another interesting cut point is attitudes towards imperialism, which actually cuts through the Alt-white side of things too. Spencer (nietzschean, promethean) appears to be somewhat pro, Greg Johnson and TRS against (Greg coming from a more classical pre and post-christian philosophical spot, TRS coming from the anglo-libertarian place many of the Ilk started in.)

I run strongly against and in favor of lots of smaller sub-racial nations, via distributist and helvetophile reasoning, assuming that white nations can actually defend themselves.

Blogger Aeoli Pera September 21, 2016 12:16 PM  

Coal Fired Brisket wrote:Vox, I would like to hear your opinion on how to push the american trade unions in an alt right direction.

I'm no good at sales but here's some logic you can base your pitch on: alt-right means domestic production, means more demand for industrial workers, means more bargaining power for unions.

Anonymous Deplorable Me September 21, 2016 12:17 PM  

2) Part of the above is that it is rooted in National Socialist thinking, which means that (a) the state is supreme, (b) the family is not valued, (c) the individual is irrelevant; all of these conflict directly with fundamental tenets of Alt-West.
What on earth?
Go to rediceradio and listen to the shows. They are most definitely alt-white and value family very very much.

Anonymous A.B. Prosper September 21, 2016 12:18 PM  

Awesome article , cogent and solid


The .Alt Right doesn't have leaders or more accurately I am the leader of the .Alt Right and so are you but this is the master level thinking we need

Re: The .Alt White ,the best reason the .Alt White has to cooperate and quietly support the .Alt Right is that they will have a much better much Whiter society to live in.

Its not some Nat Soc Judenfrei Aryan Utopia but it is a good, clean White orderly society where likely wide chunks would be free of people they don't like.

Half a filling loaf is better than a whole loaf you'll never eat

Blogger Brian S September 21, 2016 12:19 PM  

"Maybe I misunderstood. I thought you were talking about Israel. In the case of the endlessly meddling globalist Jews, I'm with you. I am ok with the nation of Israel, and in fact, wouldn't mind all the meddlers to be sent to live there and leave the rest of us the hell alone :P"

From what I currently understand, there is not separating the two. Based on their behavior, the globalist ones don't seem to believe Isreal will survive on it's own, and aren't going to just go away without being forced. And forcing them to leave will play right into their hands (muh shoah, earth's most important victim class, yadda yadda yadda), because most whites believe their version of history.

For me anyway, this isn't about hating Jews or Isreal, just trying to get a accurate read on the situation. From what I've read and seen, Isreal was taken by force in '48, mostly by the British military, and Jews armed with surplus WW2 equipment from the other allied countries. This understandably upset the locals and the neighboring countries, eventually leading to the mess that we're living with today. I know this is a very simplified version, and maybe I'm even wrong on my understanding of it, but the impression I've gotten is that the creation of Isreal wouldn't have happened without help, and wouldn't be there today without help from the west.

Blogger Deplorable Gaiseric September 21, 2016 12:20 PM  

@55: Well, yeah—that's what I was saying, albeit not so clearly. The Alt-Right, especially in America, are primarily still on the Right. That is still in opposition to the Left.

It's been hard for me to accept, honestly, the notion that the economic system is a less important variable than culture or biology, and I still believe that it is. But it's still an important variable, and I'll never be a bonhomie ally with any kind of socialist.

Anonymous ZhukovG September 21, 2016 12:20 PM  

Gee, Vox; you know you're popular when people shamelessly plug their own blogs on your dime.

Blogger Mountain Man September 21, 2016 12:21 PM  

I don't personally know any 1488ers or Alt-White. However the few that I'm aware of on the internet don't appear to have wives and children.
Personally, I can't take seriously any thinkers and speakers on preserving white identity and race, when they don't appear to personally be doing it themselves.

Blogger Were-Puppy September 21, 2016 12:22 PM  

@54 GREG NIKOLIC

He should forget about the black vote. He’s not getting it. And while he’s at it, he should be realistic about the Jewish, Vietnamese, and other votes. But what he can work on is women.
---

You do realize that by Trump appealing to blacks, latinos, etc is making the Dims spent tons of time and money on groups that they thought were permanently in the bag? Bleeding out the enemies resources is a good strategy.

Anonymous Deplorable me September 21, 2016 12:23 PM  

Sigh. I should just tell you to do your own research and read posts with the alt-right tag, but I'm feeling a little generous today, so I'll actually answer your questions.
1) Israel for the Jews
2) Because every country for its own nationals.
3) Same courtesy to all.
4) No
5) No

Seriously; read the 16 points before you ask obvious questions about the 16 Points next time.


What is pro-Israel there? That is neutral. That is the epitome of "I don't give a shit". And that neutral was explicitly excluded from Alt-West and subscribed to Alt-White in the first post.

Blogger S1AL September 21, 2016 12:23 PM  

"What on earth?
Go to rediceradio and listen to the shows. They are most definitely alt-white and value family very very much."

Cognitive dissonance isn't limited to liberals who like Islam. All forms of Socialism are fundamentally opposed to the family. The sooner that gets figured out, the better.

Blogger praetorian September 21, 2016 12:26 PM  

But it's still an important variable, and I'll never be a bonhomie ally with any kind of socialist.

Does Denmark strike you as a dystopian hellscape?

Kakistocracy did an article on this recently:

https://kakistocracyblog.wordpress.com/2016/09/20/dumpster-economics/

The significant variable in the experiment of life is whites.

Anonymous DissidentRight September 21, 2016 12:27 PM  

@22 We are open to it. They are very much not.

I was thinking of Jared Taylor, who definitely has an Alt-White flavor, but I guess then he would fall under the Alt-West.

@23 I find it distateful to address our citizenry's demographics at this point in time as there are other issues to deal with such as stopping the tidal wave of more.

I can live with transracial citizens if we stem the flow of more coming in. The Alt-White is a progression past that.


It’s the same issue. We have 60 million invaders here already. They exert influence, they vote, they have children. They have to go. “Build the wall, deport them all” is Alt-West. “Build the wall and that’s it” is, at best, Alt-Lite.

Blogger Unknown September 21, 2016 12:27 PM  

I think 4 is a subset of 5, not a separate point. Also I don't think Alt-White is necessarily hostile to Jews (as in wanting a fight), but wants separation from them. The position on Israel from what I'm hearing Anglin and RedIce talk about is that it's fine if Jews have their own country but whites should have nothing to do with them since they're toxic.

Blogger Aeoli Pera September 21, 2016 12:28 PM  

Moonbear wrote:It is a huge mistake to lump Alt-white and NatSoc together, you really need to think about the construction of the word when you say this Vox, and then when you say "Alt-White is for whites only. Alt-West is transracial and transnational.", "While the Alt-West supports white nationalism, that is not its sole concern."

Kind of makes it sound like the white identity in the western world isn't important, and that there exist western countries that are not white.

You have effectively made white identity a negative association within the Alt-West by associating every white nationalist with Nazis.

You just did the left's job for them, white nationalism is impossible if it floats on the backs of a failed ideology, therefore Alt-west will also fail.



You're making a mistake because your understanding of nationalism doesn't go deep enough. Every culture has to answer some very important moral questions that determine how it is internally organized. One of those questions is how the social safety net works. If you reject Christianity, Socialism is the other possible endpoint (for European societies).

Blogger VD September 21, 2016 12:30 PM  

In re point number one, perhaps "pan-racial" and "pan-national" are better descriptors. Alt Right encompasses many and all who ally, but no one is in genetic or cultural transit from one race or nation to another.

Agreed. Corrected.

It is a huge mistake to lump Alt-white and NatSoc together, you really need to think about the construction of the word when you say this Vox

You're wrong. They do it themselves. I am merely observing an existing condition.

and then when you say "Alt-White is for whites only. Alt-West is transracial and transnational.", "While the Alt-West supports white nationalism, that is not its sole concern." Kind of makes it sound like the white identity in the western world isn't important

You're completely wrong again because you obviously haven't read the 16 Points. Which tends to indicate that you're stupid, because only a stupid person would comment here on this subject without having read them.

Anonymous Gen. Kong September 21, 2016 12:30 PM  

The black vote is 10% of the total, the La raza vote a bit less (despite being actually the larger minority in terms of population). The Asian vote is a curious case. They might have swung to voting against the donks thanks to all the dindu attacks on Asians - especially the elderly - with the support and encouragement of Housenigga Hussein, BLM and the (((media))). They were in the donk camp starting under Clinton but this may have shifted somewhat.

Blogger praetorian September 21, 2016 12:31 PM  

Personally, I can't take seriously any thinkers and speakers on preserving white identity and race, when they don't appear to personally be doing it themselves.

Greg Johnson is gay and is one of the most important thinkers on the Alt-Right.

The NEETs are the ones that worked things out on /pol/ and brought the high energy troll army to the Alt-Right.

Our enemies are too powerful and our friends are too few to dismiss potential allies over aesthetic concerns.

Blogger Old Ez September 21, 2016 12:32 PM  

"it is more interested in competitive navel-gazing and purity-spiraling." Are there any links to this? I have yet to see anyone in the "AltWhite" pen any kind of attack on the "AltWest" (partially because there is really only one AltRight). I think it is irresponsible to tar 10's of thousands of people based on a few personal interactions. Its no surprise that Vox has encountered some spergy "AltWhites" but to go on and claim that everyone who wants a white-only homeland is a "sperg" based on those few personal interactions is not credible.

Blogger VD September 21, 2016 12:35 PM  

Another interesting cut point is attitudes towards imperialism, which actually cuts through the Alt-white side of things too.

Good point. I added that. Alt-White tends to support white imperialism, Alt-West sees it as self-destructive.

Blogger Deplorable Gaiseric September 21, 2016 12:35 PM  

Deplorable me wrote:What is pro-Israel there? That is neutral. That is the epitome of "I don't give a shit". And that neutral was explicitly excluded from Alt-West and subscribed to Alt-White in the first post.
That's because the "first" post isn't the first post. It makes clear reference to the 16 points which, despite being told specifically that you won't get the context to understand this post until you read it, you obviously still haven't done.

Blogger Samuel Nock September 21, 2016 12:37 PM  

"It is a huge mistake to lump Alt-white and NatSoc together, you really need to think about the construction of the word when you say this Vox

You're wrong. They do it themselves. I am merely observing an existing condition."

Vox: Greg Johnson's entire project of the New Right is premised around a rejection of many aspects of Nazism (the "Old Right"). Quote from an article I then link below: "The North American New Right, like the European New Right, is founded on the rejection of Fascist and National Socialist party politics, totalitarianism, terrorism, imperialism, and genocide."

Do you think Johnson has failed to separate himself from Nazism sufficiently? Very curious on your view since Johnson is obviously Alt-White but has tried to distance himself from NatSoc.

Perhaps you still see him as Romanticising it even if he rejects the violence.

http://www.counter-currents.com/2012/05/new-right-vs-old-right/

Anonymous Moonbear September 21, 2016 12:38 PM  

@63 Mountain Man
That is kind of short sighted, what if someone is ill, has a genetic disease, was born sterile and so forth.
Can they not love their own people? In fact their people is their only identity that will live on after they are gone. I expect them to support the alt-right more than anyone and I welcome their support.

Blogger VD September 21, 2016 12:38 PM  

I have yet to see anyone in the "AltWhite" pen any kind of attack on the "AltWest" (partially because there is really only one AltRight). I think it is irresponsible to tar 10's of thousands of people based on a few personal interactions.

Of the Alt-White with whom I've spoken, more than half have openly attacked me, most in a very spergy manner. I'm not saying the entire Alt-White is like that, but that's something that the more rational and balanced Alt-Whitists will have to address.

I think it would be INCREDIBLY stupid for the Alt-White to add the Alt-West to its copious list of enemies. But that's not for those of us who are not Alt-White to decide. And I would advise the Alt-West to not get into it with those Alt-Whitists who do want to fight, but simply ignore them and talk only with those willing to cooperate.

Blogger Deplorable Gaiseric September 21, 2016 12:38 PM  

praetorian wrote:Does Denmark strike you as a dystopian hellscape?

Kakistocracy did an article on this recently:

https://kakistocracyblog.wordpress.com/2016/09/20/dumpster-economics/

The significant variable in the experiment of life is whites.

Yes, that's what I said too. I still think economic system is a high impact variable, though. Simply not the first, or even the second one.

Denmark isn't a "dystopian hellscape" but it's also not a place I've ever had any desire at all to live.

Anonymous Deplorable Me September 21, 2016 12:40 PM  

That's because the "first" post isn't the first post. It makes clear reference to the 16 points which, despite being told specifically that you won't get the context to understand this post until you read it, you obviously still haven't done.
parroting the rhetoric Vox uses to slap others down isn't going to help you at all. I helped translate the 16 points to another language. But that is a fact you don't care about. You also don't care about engaging the point I'm making. What is saving you here is that you share the opinions of the blog owner, so you are at no risk of getting spammed. But you do not post anything useful either.

Blogger VD September 21, 2016 12:40 PM  

Do you think Johnson has failed to separate himself from Nazism sufficiently? Very curious on your view since Johnson is obviously Alt-White but has tried to distance himself from NatSoc.

No. I'm not saying Alt-White is NatSoc, I'm saying that NatSoc is obviously part of the Alt-White. I don't know if it is small and noisy or statistically significant, nor do I care.

Blogger Were-Puppy September 21, 2016 12:41 PM  

@78 Moonbear

I expect them to support the alt-right more than anyone and I welcome their support.
---

+100

Blogger Bard September 21, 2016 12:41 PM  

Serious question:
I have seen a few names dropped, but who are the top 3 Alt-White spokespeople (not leaders since there are not any in the Alt-Right)? I would like to do some research on what they say they believe.

Blogger Old Ez September 21, 2016 12:42 PM  

With regard to Israel, how does it intend to survive after its parasitic blood-funnel has been dug out of the goyim's neck? The only reason Israel is around today is because it has been given more money from the US than we spent on the entire Apollo moon landing. A parasite needs a host and Israel has never been anything other than a parasite. At no point in its history could it have existed without constant energy input from the goyim. As soon as the parasite is no longer able to feed, it will lose strength and eventually succumb. Sure, it can drop its nukes. But what then? A billion Muslims would gladly give up some of their cities and millions of their inhabitants to get rid of the Jewish entity once and for all. They're positively baying for something like that. And of course, once Israel decided to push the button and endanger the entire globe, the only moral response would be for the world to finally deal this criminal people by disarming and imprisoning them once and for all in an international super-ghetto. The only other option is too ghastly to consider.

Blogger Brian S September 21, 2016 12:47 PM  

I've also heard Isreal receives some insane amount of reparations (7b/year?) from Germany. Not sure who else is sending them money / other aid.

Anonymous Deplorably White Jack Amok of the West September 21, 2016 12:48 PM  

Alt-White does not, and cannot, coexist in the middle term.

Stormfronterism, maybe not, but remember this point Vox made: "...the Alt-White is having some serious trouble dealing with the inevitable problems of success and popularity." The Alt-White of tomorrow isn't necessarily the Alt-White of yesterday.

White Americans have something of a congenital distaste for tribal identity politics. It's part of our High Trust society basket of genetic predisposition and it's been a part of our success - we form good bonds across tribes. Then add in the fact that Americans in particular are skeptical of hereditary nobility, and the Nazi obsession with bloodlines and purity is off-putting. Which all just says Stormfront was a very small minority of Whites.

But since identity politics have been shoved down our throats, millions of White Americans are accepting we have to embrace our own identity politics just to stop being ripped off by the rest of the world. We used to be rich enough not to mind the petty theft, but it's gotten out of hand and it's time to put a stop to it.

So the Alt-White, though it started as Stormfront, will change as it grows. The millions of new converts will have a different, non-Nazi flavored, idea of what White Nationalism is. Vox mentions the fear of entryism, and that's absolutely legitimate for the Stormfront folks - the closet movement they've long had to themselves has millions of new people joining and those new people consider Hitler a disaster, not a role model. They're not entryists in the sense of SJWs trying to subvert a movement, but it probably feels that way to the Stormfronters.

Blogger Samuel Nock September 21, 2016 12:51 PM  

@83

I would say Greg Johnson and Andrew Anglin are the top two Alt White figures. Also Kevin MacDonald and David Duke. Richard Spencer is probably Alt White but is somewhat conflicted, and is on the cusp of Alt West. Hard to say where Spencer will end up.

Blogger Grandpa Lampshade September 21, 2016 12:52 PM  

I would say the key difference between us can be boilded down to the Jewish question. We absolutely draw the line at Jews. Now this isn't based on irrational hate but what we believe to be pattern recognition. As to those of you who deny the JQ many of us have an attitude of simply shrugging and saying, "Let them learn the hard way." I try to tell the listeners of my show constantly that if those of you who aren't aligned exactly with us are not taking shots at us, to leave you be so that we can concentrate our fire on the enemy. Some do that and unfortunately some don't.

Anonymous Moonbear September 21, 2016 12:52 PM  

@71 VD
I have read the points several times, I've even shared them; I know you don't personally believe that alt-west isn't intrinsically pro-white I just think we have to understand how it looks for the Alt-light we have to take into our fold and teach the right ways which is why I said "Kind of makes it sound like".

To them it will seem like Alt-white (white nationalism) is Nazism and that every time we promote white nationalism we promote Nazism.
If they themselves identify as Alt-white does not mean we should, we should call them what they are which is Alt-reich because that is what they want.

It's like calling yourself Neo-nazi and expect people to not just read "nazi", they don't care if the definition is different or new.
It is rather autistic to think otherwise.

Blogger praetorian September 21, 2016 12:54 PM  

Three Alt-White folks I follow, with sites and a rough characterization (there is a lot of overlap) are:

Richard Spencer / Radix - Promethean / Nietzschean
Greg Johnson / Counter Currents - Classicist / Hegelian
Lawrence Murray / TRS - Memetic Warfare / Intellectrollism

There is also the Daily Stormer, /pol/ (new school) and the Occidental Quarterly, stormfront (old school).

There are lots of others (I love kakistocracyblog) and it's a pretty chaotic blend of folks and thinking, tbqh fam.

Blogger Bard September 21, 2016 12:55 PM  

Thank you Samuel.

Blogger praetorian September 21, 2016 12:56 PM  

White Americans have something of a congenital distaste for tribal identity politics. It's part of our High Trust society basket of genetic predisposition and it's been a part of our success - we form good bonds across tribes.....

But since identity politics have been shoved down our throats, millions of White Americans are accepting we have to embrace our own identity politics just to stop being ripped off by the rest of the world. We used to be rich enough not to mind the petty theft, but it's gotten out of hand and it's time to put a stop to it.


Truer things have rarely been typed into a comments box on the internet.

Blogger Grandpa Lampshade September 21, 2016 12:58 PM  

I believe that the Christian question is way off. As a real life Nazi, many of us are open Christians. Don't get me wrong, all atheists no matter what camp they are in always sperg out when the religion topic comes up but overall, we are NOT anti-christian.

Blogger VD September 21, 2016 12:59 PM  

I would say the key difference between us can be boilded down to the Jewish question

I think that is more the difference between the Alt-Right and the Alt-Lite. The Alt-West considers Christianity a nececessary non-negotiable and our answer to it is straightforward, nationalist, and even Zionist: Israel.

I just think we have to understand how it looks for the Alt-light we have to take into our fold and teach the right ways which is why I said "Kind of makes it sound like".

Ah, okay. Sorry, I misunderstood. We get a lot of gammas who cloak their actual opinions behind "it seems" and "it appears".

The fact that the Alt-West supports the 14 Words should be sufficient to allay any such concerns, though.

Blogger VD September 21, 2016 1:00 PM  

I believe that the Christian question is way off.

I concur.

Blogger Grandpa Lampshade September 21, 2016 1:03 PM  

Yes, white nationalists have a terrible tendency to look for some reason to purge and disown fellow whites in the name of "Not really one of us". This can be one of the most frustrating things to deal with in that whether you are talking about a full right National Socialist of someone whose interest in the alt-right doesn't go beyond gamer gate the one thing we have to recognize is one of the key aspects to the success we've had is being able to concentrate our fire on the enemy in sufficient numbers as to make a difference.

Anonymous A.B. Prosper September 21, 2016 1:07 PM  

Aeoli Pera wrote:As a rule, the 1488ers hate Christians because that is our primary identity, more important than race. This violates the positive thinking aspect of their religion and they view us as race traitors (although in their minds everything is framed in sorta mystical ideology terms).

I expect that Europeans only feel this way if they are also neo-pagans who are butthurt over the introduction of Christianity.


First many 14-88's are Christian. Christian Identity is a thing at least in the US and there are more of them per capita among that crowd than Odinists

In any case modern Christianity isn't making things better in the West and though I know its painful, most White people outside the US are not Christian any longer and even the professed ones don't participate in any meaningful way

No White Christian nation has above replacement fertility and while some Christian groups do , they don't seem to becoming a bigger part of the population.

Its not helping.

The 14-88's as far as I can tell seem to be searching for a replacement meme as are White people in general. Its just recycled Nat Soc philosophy and Aryan mysticism is not going to work either

Also the type of society the .Alt Right and .Alt Right is trying to build requires Christianity or something much like it, It seems to be a software dependency of sorts and a reversion to say Animism even if it doesn't lead to Green hysteria isn't going to work

Folk religions en mass might maybe but if they do catch on somehow which I doubt are too far way to make it work and might not be compatible with the level of complexity

Blogger Wanderer September 21, 2016 1:08 PM  

There will never be unity on the alt-right because /pol/ will never accept Christianity. I've had arguments with NatSocs on there who said that Christian whites are just as deserving of genocide as any other undesirable. That would mean wiping out most white people. They're retarded and not interested in anything other than LARPing as Nazis.

Blogger Grandpa Lampshade September 21, 2016 1:08 PM  

We view Jews simply through the lens as a separate race, not in a religious context. In other words, even though they may be white skinned they are as much a different race as a Somali. Time and time again we see Jews, when called out for their subversive behavior suddenly switch from "We're an oppressed minority siding with the other oppressed minorities" to "Why are you persecuting me for my religion?"

Anonymous Casey September 21, 2016 1:09 PM  

The Alt-Right is white identity politics or it's nothing.

Blogger Reinhard Lohengramm September 21, 2016 1:10 PM  

I don't follow every single alt-right outlet, but Vox seems more bothered by purity than anyone else in it I follow (possibly because I ignore the stormers). Please abandon this purging (which is what the category of alt-white is clearly intended to effectively accomplish).

The most accurate term for what Vox wants to call alt-west is alt-cuck. Vox refuses to tolerate the slightest criticism of the alt-lite (those on the left) while focusing his attacks on the 'alt-white' (those on his right).

Alt-west is a very bad term for what Vox wants, but quite apt for what it parting with the 'alt-white' will result. 'Alternative right' denotes at once an alternative to the existing poltical Right, while also being an alternative to the concepts of left and right. 'Alt-west' means that you want an alternative to the West, which is what you will get when you support the vapid 'muh freedom' of the alt-lite (because once you have started pandering to your left while trying to keep yourself pure from the right - leftward drift will continue with only a slight blip).

Blogger Elder Son September 21, 2016 1:12 PM  

Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations – entangling alliances with none. - White guy Thomas Jefferson

The posterity should once again take that to heart. That includes with Israel.

Anonymous VFM #7916 September 21, 2016 1:12 PM  

WARNING:

I would recommend avoiding any blog site advertised by posts from entities using the name CEO Nikolic, or Greg Nikolic, or derivatives of those names. The poster usually links a wordpress site, and I've seen three different ones with similar poster names here, at heartiste, and a couple of other alt-right/game sites.

I suspect that this particular poster is a false flagger who is attempting to build sites and traffic in order to discredit/destroy alt-right members and posters, or for more nefarious purposes.

Blogger FSL September 21, 2016 1:12 PM  

Leaders of Alt West vs Leaders of Alt White? Whose blogs or books to read to get a feel as you evidently have, Vox?

Blogger Mandos September 21, 2016 1:12 PM  

Outstanding post. Indeed a lot of Alt-White guys come across as young, childless and quite obsessed with muh purity. I wouldn't mind if it hadn't such obvious tactical and strategical implications. But it also enables them to do a great job at shamelessly raising the most embarrassing topics without restraint, which drives lefties nuts.

Still the Left has higher numbers thanks to the state of mass immigration, and better message discipline thanks to mass media control, although the latter is fading. This is solved by broadening the appeal and by being as obsessed with beating the Left as the Left is obsessed with beating us. Not by narcissism.

Blogger praetorian September 21, 2016 1:15 PM  

There will never be unity on the alt-right because /pol/ will never accept Christianity.

- hide D&C threads
- ignore D&C posts
- do not reply to D&C posters

There is plenty of Deus Vult on /pol/. What you can't be is an autistic Christian that takes the bait every time some troll calls our God a kike on a stick.

So don't do that.

Blogger Reinhard Lohengramm September 21, 2016 1:19 PM  

Ok, after reading other comments some figures I was taking as the paradigm of alt-white (Vox has clearly called Richard Spencer alt-white for instance, and Millennial Woes for instance from Vox's posts I would have judged alt-white) may lean more towards alt-west. If alt-white means more narrowly stormfront etc. then I have more sympathy with Vox (after all, they are pretty obsessed with purity), though I do still think these attacks are overdone. I don't see what this distinction will achieve, except trying to purge the alt-white.

Blogger Aeoli Pera September 21, 2016 1:21 PM  

A.B. Prosper wrote:First many 14-88's are Christian.

The reason people drift toward one ideological endpoint or another is that they find themselves facing life choices where they can't have it both ways. Their preference for one master or the other is revealed over many such choices.

Folk religions en mass might maybe but if they do catch on somehow which I doubt are too far way to make it work and might not be compatible with the level of complexity


Communism will never work but if I were in a bunker alongside a die-hard Communist ally I just wouldn't bring up economics.

Blogger Kyle Smith September 21, 2016 1:23 PM  

I look forward with amusement for the eventual calls of "cuckservative" aimed at Alt-West by Alt-Right. And cries of racist by Alt-West to Alt-Right.

Kidding aside, most the alt-right claims of sell-out and compromise to conservatisms are the normal spasms of a developing political movement with idealism since they have not yet been faced with the political realities of being a functional political movement. VD here seems to be doing some of the normal and natural maturation of the intellectual arm of the political movement where you try to define your tent, and sometimes expel those who are ruining the place (this is not expulsion, but could be setting the stage to say that actual irrational racists who hate people based on their skin color alone should be put out of the movement as VD suggests in his 16 Points).

As mostly a conservative who is very sympathetic to the alt-right (but not their choice of politicians) and very interested in politics as history these transitions are normal. The idealism of the movements changes when it gets in power to practical questions and disappointment. The alt-right may prevail and Trump may be elected, and many will have to face the normal disappointments of practical messy politics (disappointments I have faced all my life). Its good to prepare for that realization so the blow is not so painful. And its good to understand who is in the tent, so that if people need to be asked to leave you know who they are.

Blogger Nick S September 21, 2016 1:23 PM  

"The Alt-Right is white identity politics or it's nothing."

Stake your claim, but it seems to me the Alt-Right is the free market of identity politics. Supply and demand will dictate the winners and losers.

Anonymous Adriano September 21, 2016 1:24 PM  

Vox, as someone who spends most of my time in areas and interacting with people you would likely call "alt-white", I have to quibble with a few of your points. I agree with 1, 3, and 4.

For point 2, far more people in the alt white recognize whites as several subgroups all which deserve dignity and preservation - but do not necessarily reflect current geographical lines, I.e. germanic, Slavs, Scandinavians, celts, etc. Our enemies see whites much more broadly, so that is who it appears we defend as a whole - all whites are under attack so all whites must be defended. Cont...

Blogger Aeoli Pera September 21, 2016 1:24 PM  

I'm not trying to purity spiral here, like Vox I'm just pointing out what could potentially divide us so we can (hopefully) work together. We have to police our own here, that's the only way alliances work.

Anonymous DissidentRight September 21, 2016 1:26 PM  

@88 I would say the key difference between us can be boilded down to the Jewish question.

What difference? I thought the JQ was, “Are Jews good for the West?” Answer: obviously not. Pretty sure Alt-West agrees here. Didn’t you see point 5?

Blogger Bodo Staron September 21, 2016 1:27 PM  

4 and 5 of the above are very interesting for me and I support those fully. Alt-Whiters, if interested, could investigate what's going on in Israel. They are also being invaded for years now, and leftists Jews are supporting this. Nationalists of course fight them - they want their Jewish homeland and I have no problems with this.

Blogger Gapeseed September 21, 2016 1:29 PM  

It seems that white nationalists in Weimar Germany, having acquired the Socialism Ring of Power, could not resist the temptation to leverage it to its fullest, thus tainting white nationalism to this very day. A mirror image of the phenomenon seems to be happening in South Africa today. As such, the Alt-West, with its emphasis on Christianity and the Western traditions of limited government, is far superior to the self-destructive tendencies of alt-White, who would grasp at absolute power and destroy everything, including, ultimately, themselves.

OpenID paworldandtimes September 21, 2016 1:29 PM  

In best case scenario, alt-White and alt-West have the same enemy -- globalization and nation-blending, and largely the same points of agreement: the 16 points. Any irreconcilable core value differences, such as Christianity, can be reasonably resolved by separation.

PA

Anonymous ZhukovG September 21, 2016 1:29 PM  

Critique is not attack.

Critique is not rejection.

Focus.

"14.The Alt Right(Alt-White and Alt-West) believes we must secure the existence of white people and a future for white children."

Anonymous Adriano September 21, 2016 1:33 PM  

For point 5, we again are acting to defend ourselves from those who have fooled our people in the past - what benefit is it for us to trust any Jews in any way whatsoever when they have done so much damage to our people using lies and deceit? In a utopian world, Jews would leave whites alone and we could leave then be, and blacks could quit committing crime, but that isn't a valid tactic.

Point 6. Hitler's reign is viewed with romanticism as an expression of an independent forthright nation state of a white subgroup. It is well recognized that national socialism is not the appropriate method of government for all white peoples, in particular it would never work for american whites- but the expression as an independent nation that can choose it's form of government as a unified people is the appeal. Also, nazi imagery is fantastic and triggers Normies like no other.

Blogger Salt September 21, 2016 1:33 PM  

I don't see #AltWhite as ever being a problem. They've always existed. They're here, now. Get out of hand and they will be stomped down. They know this. It's not any common ground #AltWest has with them but that which they are now finding with #AltRight. This is a one way street, and it's new for them. There's no reason to pay attention to them, but for one thing -

The historical inevitability of what is coming they shall herald. When #AltWest's 'fed up' reaches critical mass, #AltWhite shall signal it. They won't be stomped down.

Blogger Samuel Nock September 21, 2016 1:33 PM  

"Any irreconcilable core value differences, such as Christianity, can be reasonably resolved by separation."

Jesus (no pun intended). Even Alt White and Alt West can't live together?

Blogger Cataline Sergius September 21, 2016 1:36 PM  

The root of the Alt-White is the AB guys.

And the they spend a lot of time in prison.

They know better than anyone else what it's like to live in an American society where Whites are a permanent minority. It is a brutal and unforgiving school system.

That is where they are coming from. Just keep it mind when dealing with them.

Blogger Aeoli Pera September 21, 2016 1:38 PM  

This is new for me, what are the AB guys?

Anonymous Sharrukin September 21, 2016 1:40 PM  

Aeoli Pera September 21, 2016 1:38 PM

"This is new for me, what are the AB guys?"

Aryan Brotherhood.

Anonymous Ironsides September 21, 2016 1:40 PM  

Aeoli Pera wrote:This is new for me, what are the AB guys?

Aryan Brotherhood

Blogger Robert What? September 21, 2016 1:41 PM  

I guess I must be Alt-West because apparently being of Jewish descent I can't be Alt-White. However I would be very happy to go back to the 90% white America I grew up in. In addition, I am in no ways hostile to Christianity.

Blogger VFM #7634 September 21, 2016 1:43 PM  

I myself am somewhat split between alt-White and alt-West.

1. Alt-White is for whites only. Alt-West is pan-racial and pan-national, which should not be confused with being multicultural or equalitarian or pro-diversity in the egalitarian sense.

Mainly alt-White. I do not see Muslims, peoples of sub-Saharan African descent, or Jews as being capable of being part of Western civilization. Other races, such as Latin Americans, may or may not be.

2. Alt-White is primarily concerned with white nationalism, and secondarily concerned with European nationalisms. Within the Alt-White, there is already a discussion concerning what the difference between a generic white nationalism and the specific European nationalisms are; I suspect there will eventually be a further distinction between American and European branches of the Alt-White. While the Alt-West supports white nationalism, that is not its sole concern, as it supports all nationalism, European or otherwise.

I'm more alt-White on this issue as well. In regards to nonwhite nationalists, I'm sympathetic if they're fighting against Muslims, Jews, or Africanization, but neutral otherwise.

3. Alt-White is neutral to hostile on Christianity. Alt-West is strongly pro-Christian, as it believes Christianity to be one of the three pillars of Western Civilization aka the historical Christendom. Pro-Christian includes, but does not require, actually being a Christian.

I'm alt-West here. Unfortunately, anti-Christian alt-Whiters seem to have conflated Churchianity with Christianity and are unable to tell the difference.

4. Alt-White is neutral to hostile on Israel. Alt-West is pro-Israel, as it supports all nationalist homelands.

Alt-White. I'm neutral on Israel, and don't think it needs any support whatsoever at any rate, given Zionist clout and power. The main reason being that Israel is either neutral or hostile to Europeans. If Israel took an obviously pro-European attitude, then I'd be more pro-Israel, but it doesn't, so I'm not.

5. Alt-White is hostile to very hostile to all Jews everywhere. Alt-West is friendly to Israeli Jews while hostile to globalist Jews and anti-nationalist Jews.

A mix here. I'm neutral toward Israeli Jews and hostile to the globalists and anti-nationalists. I'm initially suspicious of Jewish converts to Christianity, but if they don't take any major Churchian or cuckservative positions I'm fine with them.

6. Alt-White has a romantic view of National Socialism. Alt-West regards it as a suicidally stupid but semiotically useful form of German nationalism.

Alt-West on this one.

7. Alt-White is neutral to pro-white imperialism. Alt-West is anti-imperialism, as it regards imperalism as being societally enervating and self-destructive.

Alt-West again, although I think other factors besides imperialism are more responsible for enervation and self-destruction.

Blogger VFM #7634 September 21, 2016 1:45 PM  

In regards to nonwhite nationalists, I'm sympathetic if they're fighting against Muslims, Jews, or Africanization, but neutral otherwise.

Also, to be more precise, as with Israeli nationalists, I base my sympathies on how they regard peoples of European descent. If they're full-blown Cultural Marxists, they can go to hell for all I care.

Blogger VD September 21, 2016 1:46 PM  

I don't see what this distinction will achieve, except trying to purge the alt-white.

You have it totally backwards. The distinction is an attempt to protect the Alt-White.


The Alt-Right is white identity politics or it's nothing.

IF that's all it is, THEN it is nothing and will accomplish nothing. Even Hitler wasn't dumb enough to disdain non-white allies. Posturing makes poor strategy.

I don't follow every single alt-right outlet, but Vox seems more bothered by purity than anyone else in it I follow (possibly because I ignore the stormers). Please abandon this purging (which is what the category of alt-white is clearly intended to effectively accomplish).

You're clearly too short for this ride. I'm not in the least bit bothered by purity. Nor is this purging. The ape can read Nietzsche, but he doesn't understand it.

Blogger Rabbi B September 21, 2016 1:48 PM  

@125 Robert What?

(((Alt-West)))

Blogger VD September 21, 2016 1:53 PM  

Mainly alt-White. I do not see Muslims, peoples of sub-Saharan African descent, or Jews as being capable of being part of Western civilization. Other races, such as Latin Americans, may or may not be.

You failed to understand the Alt-West position. Of course they're not part of the West.

Anonymous Adriano September 21, 2016 1:58 PM  

@cataline

You're wron., the tattooed up degenerates in the Aryan brotherhood have nothing to do with the alt right and you know it. Quit being an SPLC disinfo agent.

Blogger Aeoli Pera September 21, 2016 1:58 PM  

Rabbi B wrote:@125 Robert What?

(((Alt-West)))


FFS dude. We're talking JQ here and you stroll in and jokingly claim shadowy leadership of the less homicidal side?

Blogger Aeoli Pera September 21, 2016 2:00 PM  

At least now I know for sure that Jews constantly get themselves shoah'd out of incompetence and not planning.

Blogger Deplorable Gaiseric September 21, 2016 2:01 PM  

@126: There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about what it means to "support" someone else's nationalism, or their right to exist. I couldn't really be very bothered with Zionism or Liberian nationalism or any other kind of nationalism other than American. But I don't begrudge them their own culture, their own homeland, or their own countries. Just keep them out of MY culture, homeland and country.

Blogger Grandpa Lampshade September 21, 2016 2:01 PM  

121. Cataline Sergius September 21, 2016 1:36 PM
The root of the Alt-White is the AB guys.
------------------------------------------
This is patently false.

Blogger Alec Rawls September 21, 2016 2:02 PM  

Alt Right might have to expand to accommodate far more than any early self-identifiers ever imagined. The Democrats (who control pretty much ALL of our information industries) are trying to cast everyone right of Jeb and Boehner as Alt Right. Anyone who is against illegal immigration they are labeling as Alt Right, never mind those of us who oppose Muslim immigration or think that lives of blacks who are committing attempted murder (Trayvon Martin, Michael Brown, Alton Sterling) don't matter.

The anti-illegal vote is a clear majority of the country, but don't think that the Democrat-media complex can't make the anti-illegal-immigration-as-fringe gambit stick. They know that they are the minority and that everything depends on disinformation and manipulation, which they have been parlaying into electoral success for decades.

What is the OBVIOUS meaning of Alt Right? Of the concept of "alternate" that those who are naive to the history of the specific term will be expecting "alternate" to refer to? It will be akternate to the open borders RINOS like Jeb and Boehner and Ryan, the Obama-accommodating semi-leftists who the majority of the Republican base, recently represented by the Tea Party movement, has been so incensed with. They know why they are incensed and it is THAT anger, the majority-right anger, that will become the center of Alt Right if the Democrats succeed in mainstreaming that label.

What the original Alt Righters can do is work to define the term so that it doesn't end up excluding themselves. Shun political correctness on all subjects, including race, sex, ethnicity, and religion. Only truth matters and no truth must ever be suppressed. We have HAD IT with the left's politically correct lying about everything under the sun. Total rejection. No more lying about anything. Make that the core and a broad Alt Right will include the original alt right, or most of it, because this is the dominant determinative political fact of the age: the lying left's domination of our information industries: the press, entertainment media, academia, k-12, all the professional societies, almost all philanthropies, and now even sports news and management. The fundamental opposition to the left's relentless lying in pursuit of power is truth as a unifying principle.

If Alt White becomes telling-the-truth-about-race it will both legitimize them and purge them of their illegitimate parts. (You don't think Jews are white? 95% of them? Really? Morons. The problem with Jewish leftists is their leftism, not their Jewishness.)

The alternate to the establishment GOP was already developed in the form of the Tea Party movement. Any branch that insists on stuff that is inconsistent with the root constitutionalism of the Tea Party will get excluded. Truth and the rejection of politically correct truth-evasion, is absolutely consistent with that root Tea Party purpose and is the real umbrella for the right, just as lying in pursuit of power is the real umbrella of the left. If we are smart, that principle will ultimately sort out what is in and what is out on the right.

Islam is a religion of lies "for war is deception," and everything in Islam is war. That puts them on the left, along with the original National Socialists (the definition of communism), and with the few today who still embrace National Socialist lies about Jews.

Blogger Deplorable Gaiseric September 21, 2016 2:02 PM  

Or, in other words, since it apparently needs to be specifically stated; yes, supporting Israel's right to exist and being friendly with the notion of an Israeli country that is allied with America is just fine.

It doesn't mean so friendly that we give them $3 billion a year in aid or fight proxy wars for them, though. Simply in the sense that we support their right to exist.

Anonymous Casey September 21, 2016 2:03 PM  

"Posturing makes poor strategy."

Only time will tell, I suppose. But if #14 doesn't demonstrate the posture that the Alt-Right is white identity politics, what does?

Blogger Sheila4g September 21, 2016 2:04 PM  

VD: " . . . by establishing a separate identity, a much broader spectrum of members are made possible while respecting the rigid borders of the Alt-White. . . Because we know the white race is absolutely a necessary component of [Western Civilization] . . .

While there are definite disagreements regarding the preferred economy or religion or international relations, all branches of the Alt Right are fundamentally concerned with Identity (primarily genetic but also cultural) and the future of the White race which ultimately equals family. As far as the "rigid borders" on the Alt White, I've read some who reject anyone who is not German/Nordic. The level of purity varies, but regardless, I respect it in that I totally believe in the freedom of association of whichever people wish to live together with some and not with others within defined borders. As a regular reader of Occidental Quarterly, Occidental Dissent, VDare, Amren, Faith and Heritage, The Right Stuff, Counter Currents, Radix, Kakistocracy, etc., I find myself educated and mentally challenged by so many thinkers and strategists far superior to myself. As a Christian, and due purely to genetic ancestry I am, by necessity, part of the Alt West. Vox has already made clear the danger of entryism for all branches of Alt Right political thought and all Christians, and when future homogeneous nations arise, people will choose their own leaders. One hardly sees Vox agitating politically in Italy or demanding a role in the future of the nation, and he logically and factually identifies as not 100% White genetically, while he is indisputably Alt West per his 16 points. Others of his readers, too, fully support his 16 points and the future and absolute necessity of the White race, yet cannot pass the purity test (again, which most of us fully respect/support) of various branches of the Alt White.

@23 CM: "I find it distasteful to address our citizenry's demographics at this point in time . . ." This, too, will be tomorrow's battle. Some (I would include Vox, if I understand him correctly) would use 1965 as the cut off. Some want to go back to before the War Between the States. America, with its mixture of people, will be different by nature than the naturally homogeneous nations of Europe. Precisely who will or will not be a future "American" in whatever form a future "America" takes is not for any one of us alone to decide. If the globalists of all stripes and religions are not defeated, all strains of Alt Right/Alt West/Alt Lite thought are moot. That is Vox's argument, so far as I understand it and support it.

Blogger Rabbi B September 21, 2016 2:04 PM  

@132 Aeoli Pera

My point was there are Jews like (((myself))) who are willing to support the interests of the Alt-West. I wouldn't read too much into it.

Blogger Aeoli Pera September 21, 2016 2:05 PM  

And now that's a meme. Congratulations.

Blogger Zelezny September 21, 2016 2:09 PM  

Did you not read the comment Vox? Obviously we can't have 100% white country, but to not be a minority in your own country.

Stop trying to divide the alt right.

WITHOUT ALT-WHITE there is no Alt-West

Blogger Zelezny September 21, 2016 2:11 PM  

Dude, no one is saying America should be 100% white (even if they want it, it's not doable)

We just want to take down those who are forcing a genocide of our own people in our own country.

Anonymous Adriano September 21, 2016 2:14 PM  

@alec Rawls

Jews are absolutely not white. Would preserving Jews alone satisfy point 14? Obviously not.

Anonymous ZhukovG September 21, 2016 2:20 PM  

@136 No.

Blogger Nick S September 21, 2016 2:21 PM  

I'm still in the middle of the learning curve on this and trying to decide if and where I should invest, but the closer I look the more it looks like herding cats. The problem is that I don't believe there's enough time to wait and see how it shakes out organically. I think everybody is going to have to decide which set of parameters have been sufficiently defined to garner their support beyond the election soon.

Who is that guy that sounds like Thurston Howell III? I think maybe Stefan interviewed him. I'd like to hear more of what he has to say on the matter.

Blogger professorastro September 21, 2016 2:22 PM  

Where do we stand on Thor?

Anonymous ZhukovG September 21, 2016 2:25 PM  

@147 Cool character; She-Thor, oh hell no.

Anonymous Anonymous September 21, 2016 2:26 PM  

If the "alt-West" embraces a multiracial West then it negates itself as a coherent opposition to globalism. Western civilization is inexorably tied to Western people i.e. people of European descent. That includes both monoethnic Europeans and the multi-ethnic disapora Europeans in the greater Anglosphere. Anything less is just subsidzing the presuppositions that have brought us to precipice of cultural and racial oblivion.

As for the issue of Jewish nationalism being held equivalent to gentile nationalisms. The problem lies mainly in the decidedly parasitic and anti-nationalist nature of Israel's history. That is, unlike any other nation-state, Jewish nationalism is inexorably tied to guilting whites for the supposed excesses of their own nationalism against Jews as to secure the resources from Western countries to maintain their state. And the Jews are apt to point this out: their existence is always tenuous, and the need for goyisch resources to hold out is infinite and unrelenting. Without AIPAC holocaustianity, and the resulting historical guilt trip of White Christians to force Western nations' unfailing support of the Jewish state -- no matter the frankly unjustifiable costs to those nations -- it's clear Israel wouldn't last long. It's also abundantly clear Jewish nationalists and their foreign lobbies will never willingly give up their rent-seeking scheme and influence over the foreign policy of the West.

Blogger Jed Mask September 21, 2016 2:26 PM  

lol Don't worry y'all white folks. Y'all be alright; just don't "hurt each other". I be praying for y'all like all peoples...

It's in the "inside" y'all.

God Almighty, Lord JESUS CHRIST LOVES everyone! Amen!

~ Bro. Jed

Blogger WebTrafficBuilder September 21, 2016 2:26 PM  

Vox, wasn't it you that said "embrace your extremists"?

The STRENGTH of the Alt-Right is that it's so many places at once. You can't pin it down to one leader or party. (Even though the media tries)

They all want to bring down the (((globalists))).

So if anyone actually cares for white population or western civilization it's best not to attack ANY part of it. Unless it is confirmed that a Shill or informal has occupied an idea.

(which is what this article sounds like..hmm what has Ol Oh Vey Mike been speaking in you ear Vox?)

Blogger Robert What? September 21, 2016 2:31 PM  

@Adriano,

So this past few weeks I learned I am apparently not White, which my blond haired, blue eyed relatives would be very surprised to learn. Now apparently I'm not qualified for Alt-West either. Does this mean I have to turn in my White Privilege?

Blogger Amy September 21, 2016 2:33 PM  

Agreed, have seen him elsewhere, he's a troll, do not feed.

Anonymous ZhukovG September 21, 2016 2:38 PM  

@WebTrafficBuilder
Critique is not attack.

Critique is not rejection.

Blogger Rabbi B September 21, 2016 2:42 PM  

@151 Robert What?

So this past few weeks I learned I am apparently not White, which my blond haired, blue eyed relatives would be very surprised to learn. Now apparently I'm not qualified for Alt-West either.

Is this a problem?

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey September 21, 2016 2:44 PM  

"Who is that guy that sounds like Thurston Howell III?"

Jared Taylor? Weak on the JQ, but otherwise OK.

Anonymous Jay Will September 21, 2016 2:45 PM  

Id be happy for any party to even start the ball rolling by saying the UK is an English speaking country and that is going to be enforced/encouraged. I open my window and I don't even need to see "colour" I have no idea what they are saying.

Which makes me a racist for not wanting to learn their language.

Blogger John Doe September 21, 2016 2:45 PM  

Jewish nationalism is a joke. Without foreign lobbies, holocaustianity, bastardized Christian theological claims and diapora Jews making sure every American politician bows to Jewish campaign finance, and by extension Israel, the state wouldn't last six months.

The costs to Western interests with the 99% of other peoples and nations that makeup the Mid-east is reason enough to make support of Jewish nationalism untenable for White nationalists. The Israeli hypocrisy on unlimited Muslim migration to the West generated by the wars their co-ethnics (neocons) pushed for Western governments to engage in, and which turned out to be solely for the national interests of Israel is cause enough to tell "Jewish nationalism" to permanently fuck off.

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey September 21, 2016 2:48 PM  

A thoughtful piece. I would quibble with #7, though. Perhaps your experience has been different, but
"Alt-White is neutral to pro-white imperialism"?

Haven't seen much of this, to be honest.

Blogger Escoffier September 21, 2016 2:49 PM  

bob k. mando ( the hardest troll here ) wrote:2. Deplorable Gaiseric September 21, 2016 11:21 AM

The Alt-White's diffidence in accepting Christianity and romantic attachments to German National Socialism also is a major turn-off.


actually, the various strains of White Nationalism which wish to go the National Socialist / Fascist route aren't "Alternative Right" at all.

they are Alternative Left. and it was predicted that they would arise as Alternative Left ( nationalist socialist as opposed to the orthodox International Proletariat ) parties by Marx himself.

and a great deal of their antipathy for the Alternative Right is founded on this fact.

'nationalism' says nothing about the type of government you desire, only that you have no wish to be dictated to by foreigners.


This! I was always baffled by Auster's insistence that the Nazi's were a right wing ideology.

Anonymous Ezekiel Cassandros September 21, 2016 2:49 PM  

@2 Gaiseric

"I think many Alt-Whiters relish their political and social status as outsiders and rebels and are mistrustful of success and growth; that they'll lose their carefully cultivated identity if the movement becomes more mainstream. This also explains their love of purity tests; so that they can maintain the notion that they're out there on the fringe, doing their own thing, not part of some mainstream movement. Who wants to be part of a mainstream movement? Not them. If it's not outre, it's not cool anymore."

You are right that the schism between Alt-White and Alt-West is partially emotional and instinctive, even correct that this has to do with us being used to being attacked. However, your narrative is simply wrong. We WANT to be mainstream, but we want it to be US that goes mainstream.

Short-term, we want Donald Trump to get elected, of course. Longer-term than that, though, we want Alt-White ideas to become the norm for Whites. We want to create a counter-culture that replaces the dominant culture. We want this because we think our beliefs are true and our political ideologies will be better when implemented into policy.

So no, the Alt-White is not just pissy about not being the only cool edgy people on the block anymore. We actually want to get as many people as we can interested in fascism, we want to get people to be suspicious of even Israelis, especially now that radio and internet means Jews can lie to all of us from anywhere in the world.

So the Alt-West does appear to us, in certain respects, to be half-baked - and we really don't want significant numbers of Whites to get stuck in half-baked ideas which if implemented will lead us back into trouble in the long term.

In short, we actually don't want the "Alt-West" to be a separate destination that stops Whites who would otherwise unleash their inner Nazi. Whether that is actually true is another matter entirely.

Anonymous Caim September 21, 2016 2:50 PM  

Hi Vox,

Have you considered doing a brainstorm with Lawrence Murray to discuss these types of issues in more detail. He seems to be one of the most prolific and erudite writers of the Alt-White, and your exchanges with him on Twitter were really interesting. Alternatively, maybe you could go back on the Daily Shoah the next time he is part of the Death Panel.

Blogger Chiva September 21, 2016 2:53 PM  

@151 Does this mean I have to turn in my White Privilege?

No, you should double down!

Anonymous ZhukovG September 21, 2016 2:54 PM  

Some folks seem to be under the mistaken impression that support for Jewish Nationalism means that we will continue to give Israel money. This is simply not true. I also suggest that some are dramatically underestimating the resilience of the Jewish State.

Blogger Grandpa Lampshade September 21, 2016 2:55 PM  

We're not opposed to Israel per se as we believe we have to send these Jews somewhere (no we don't plan to gas them with bug spray in fake showers). We just don't think Jewish nationalism is real in the sense of nationalism in other races for the simple fact that we believe Jews to be a parasitic race that requires a host to feed off of.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash September 21, 2016 3:00 PM  

Alec Rawls wrote:The alternate to the establishment GOP was already developed in the form of the Tea Party movement. Any branch that insists on stuff that is inconsistent with the root constitutionalism of the Tea Party will get excluded. Truth and the rejection of politically correct truth-evasion, is absolutely consistent with that root Tea Party purpose and is the real umbrella for the right, just as lying in pursuit of power is the real umbrella of the left. If we are smart, that principle will ultimately sort out what is in and what is out on the right.
C: I'm sorry, I have a cold. I wish to make a complaint!
O: We're closin' for lunch.
C: Never mind that, my lad. I wish to complain about this political movement what I bought in to not 8 years ago from this very boutique.
O: Oh yes, the, uh, the Tea Party... What's,uh... What's wrong with it?
C: I'll tell you what's wrong with it, my lad. It's dead, that's what's wrong with it!
O: No, no, 'e's uh,...it's resting.
C: Look, matey, I know a dead movement when I see one, and I'm looking at one right now.
O: No no it's not dead, it's, it's restin'! Remarkable movement, the Tea Party, idn'it, ay? Beautiful principles! Clean up after 'emselves, don't they?
C: The trash collection don't enter into it. It's stone dead.
O: Nononono, no, no! It's resting!
C: All right then, if it's restin', I'll wake it up!
(shouting at the cage)
'Ello, Mister Tea Party! I've got a lovely fresh tax cut for you if you show...(owner hits the cage)
O: There, he moved!
C: No, he didn't, that was you hitting the cage!
O: I never!!
C: Yes, you did!
O: I never, never did anything...

Blogger Snidely Whiplash September 21, 2016 3:01 PM  

C: (yelling and hitting the cage repeatedly) 'ELLO TEA PARTY!!!!!
Testing! Testing! Testing! Testing! This is your nine o'clock alarm call!
(Takes tea party out of the cage and thumps its head on the counter. Throws it up in the air and watches it plummet to the floor.)
C: Now that's what I call a dead movement.
O: No, no.....No, It's stunned!
C: STUNNED?!?
O: Yeah! You stunned it, just as it was wakin' up! Principled Conservatives stun easily, Major.
C: Um...now look...now look, mate, I've definitely 'ad enough of this. That movement is definitely deceased, and when I joined it not eight years ago, you assured me that its total lack of movement was due to it bein' principled and polite and shagged out following a prolonged squawk.
O: Well, he's...it's, ah...probably pining for the eighties.
C: PININ' for the EIGHTIES?!?!?!? What kind of talk is that?, look, why did it fall flat on his back the moment I got it home?
O: The Tea Party prefers kippin' on it's back! Remarkable movement, id'nit, squire? Lovely conservative principles!
C: Look, I took the liberty of examining that tea party when I got it home, and I discovered the only reason that it had been capable of even holding a rally in the first place was that it had been co-opted BEFORE I EVEN HEARD OF IT.
(pause)
O: Well, o'course it was co-opted! If we hadn't co-opted the tea party, it would have nuzzled up to the system, influenced and election, and VOOM! Feeweeweewee!
C: "VOOM"?!? Mate, this praty wouldn't "voom" if you put four million volts through it! It's bleedin' demised!
O: No no! It's pining!
C: It's not pinin'! It's passed on! This movement is no more! It has ceased to be! It's expired and gone to meet its maker!
It's a stiff! Bereft of life, it rests in peace! If you hadn't been using it for fundraising, it'd be pushing up the daisies!
Its metabolic processes are now 'istory! It's off the twig!
It's kicked the bucket, it's shuffled off its mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!!

THIS IS AN EX-MOVEMENT!!

(pause)
O: Well, I'd better replace it, then.
O: Sorry squire, I've had a look 'round the back of the shop, and uh, we're right out of Conservative political movements.

C: I see. I see, I get the picture.

O: I got No Labels.
(pause)
C: Pray, does it matter?
O: Nnnnot really.
C: WELL IT'S HARDLY A BLOODY REPLACEMENT, IS IT?!!???!!?
O: Look, all I've got is the alt-Right. Try that.

Blogger Doom September 21, 2016 3:01 PM  

La Raza? I thought you where chink or daikon, feather indian, and white... as much as that latter gets you with the formers. Oh well, live and learn. I'm out on alt-white for at least two reasons, though I still think that is mostly socialist, again. Funny thing, Hitler loved my blues... dot indians. At least his fanciful notion of them.

I am not sure they can be allies though. I realized, just as I hit 9th grade, that I couldn't be their friend. They have dark intent regarding my kind. If that is alt-white of today, and it seems so, I don't see how an alliance can work. Technically I should be on the multi-culti side, as it seems should you. I just know that where they are leading is genocidal to whites, and an end to a civil, lawful, society. But I can't join with the other side if their intention is also genocide. While I would still lean that way, if I thought they wouldn't be socialists... but they are. And that will lead them, inexorably, right back to here. Socialism doesn't just lead to communism and genocide, but most forms of literal, social, civil, cultural, and other suicides.

Just sayin'.

Anonymous Adriano September 21, 2016 3:02 PM  

@robert what?

Don't even try that kike entryism bullshit "hey goyz err guys, I'm white just like you, 1488!" For real advice as a Jew with alt right leanings, see there-

http://therightstuff.biz/2016/08/30/alt-rinos-those-who-incur-the-wrath-of-kek/

Blogger Jew613 September 21, 2016 3:02 PM  

Brian S, no your understanding of the situation is exactly backwards. In 1948 the British and Arabs were close allies. The Jewish forces, of the Etzel and Lehi drove out the British using weapons we made ourselves, stole from the British, or got from the IRA. After the British withdrawal the Arabs invaded. The Jordanian military was staffed by British officers and British pilots were given temporary leave to join the Egyptian air force to fly their planes. The Jewish forces, now the IDF won using primarily using Czech made weapons. The USA had an arms embargo against the nascent Jewish state. A small number of WWII surplus weapons were smuggled in but it was largely czech and Jewish made weapons that we used.

I cant stress enough that the so called help from the West is terrible for Israel, nothing could be better for the Jewish state then if all foreign aid was ended immediately.

You also have a legitimate complaint that there are Jewish globalists who are working against your country. At the same time hordes of foreigners both Christian and marxist come to Israel to work to strengthen our enemies and weaken Israel. The EU and Washington pour fortunes every year into trying to steal Jewish land and make Israel another Western hellenist state.

Blogger Aeoli Pera September 21, 2016 3:06 PM  

Chiva wrote:@151 Does this mean I have to turn in my White Privilege?

No, you should double down!


It appears you can cut a Jew off at the knees, but he'll still drag himself into that shower.

Robert, I'm saying this because I care: eventually your choices are to get on the plane or to get on the train.

I suppose you and your people could shut up for five seconds and hope everyone forgets you exist, but let's be honest, that's never happened.

Blogger Mjolnir ThunderBliss September 21, 2016 3:06 PM  

I thought this article was well reasoned. It can be both annoying and valuable to get another perspective on how people perceive the fault lines in between the alliance of AltRight, I'd categorize this as fairly enlightening, due to its descriptive overview and conciseness.

There's probably going to be a fair amount of overlap between each individuals adoption of the above listed articles, so I wouldn't want obsessive labelling, but it's an interesting approach to try and move things a bit forward.

Anonymous ZhukovG September 21, 2016 3:08 PM  

Well played Mr. Whiplash, well played.

Anonymous Jay Will September 21, 2016 3:11 PM  

The greatest question of the modern age who is "we". Belonging.

Given the eternal mercenary nature of "engineers" and "scientists". You can pickpocket other nations talent as long as your sense of "belonging" is strong enough to get you higher.

Vox is engaging in PSYOPS rhetoric on this.

Blogger Escoffier September 21, 2016 3:13 PM  

Samuel Nock wrote:"Any irreconcilable core value differences, such as Christianity, can be reasonably resolved by separation."

Jesus (no pun intended). Even Alt White and Alt West can't live together?


Seems kinda crazy, don't it?

Blogger Rabbi B September 21, 2016 3:15 PM  

@170 Aeoli Pera

Robert, I'm saying this because I care: eventually your choices are to get on the plane or to get on the train.

Yep. It will come to that.

Anonymous trequar September 21, 2016 3:17 PM  

Alt-West is sounding pretty good. I'd advise some against being so quick to label Taylor and the HBD crowd as Alt-West. Their brand of weird IQ imperialism is certainly not my understanding of Western Civilization. If anything, they belong to a future third faction, but we'll see how things progress.

Blogger Jaded Diaspora September 21, 2016 3:17 PM  

If the alt white wing is indeed less uniformly Christian, I wonder how much of that (at least as far as the US is concerned) is push-back against an evangelical culture that has been all too willing to be led around by the nose by cuckservative GOP pandering. Or is it more a function of a left-leaning churchian culture that has increasingly made nice with SJW causes?

Blogger Jaded Diaspora September 21, 2016 3:18 PM  

If the alt white wing is indeed less uniformly Christian, I wonder how much of that (at least as far as the US is concerned) is push-back against an evangelical culture that has been all too willing to be led around by the nose by cuckservative GOP pandering. Or is it more a function of a left-leaning churchian culture that has increasingly made nice with SJW causes?

Blogger Alvin von Diaspar September 21, 2016 3:18 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Cataline Sergius September 21, 2016 3:19 PM  

Adriano

@cataline

You're wron., the tattooed up degenerates in the Aryan brotherhood have nothing to do with the alt right and you know it. Quit being an SPLC disinfo agent.


You have absolutely no idea just how flat fucking stupid you have made yourself look to the guys who regularly comment on this blog.

Blogger Gary September 21, 2016 3:21 PM  

'There are much bigger battles ahead than settling the question of whether Christianity is a necessary component of Western Civilization or not.'

I was surprised to read this comment after recently reading Irrational Atheists.

IMO there is no chance of civilisation, Western or otherwise, without Christianity being right at the centre of it. Before Christ man was lost in his own desires, and for 2,000 years man has been slowly but surely moved away from Christ toward darkness and evil, especially since the French Enlightenment.
Christian values and beliefs, as per the Bible, are all that prevents man from living as animals, just check Ghengis Khan, the Mayans, Stalin, Mao...the list is endless and ongoing.


Blogger Brian S September 21, 2016 3:21 PM  

@Jew613 - Thanks for the reply, I'll look into it more.

Blogger GFR September 21, 2016 3:21 PM  

@169
.
You're full of crap. British pilots did not fly for the Arabs but they DID fly for the Israelis. If the Israelis had flown against the British they would have lost.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_Levett

Anonymous Ezekiel Cassandros September 21, 2016 3:21 PM  

"If the alt white wing is indeed less uniformly Christian, I wonder how much of that (at least as far as the US is concerned) is push-back against an evangelical culture that has been all too willing to be led around by the nose by cuckservative GOP pandering. Or is it more a function of a left-leaning churchian culture that has increasingly made nice with SJW causes?"

Yes, and yes. Inquisition when?
Some on the Alt-White consider it to be an inherent design flaw that cannot be excised. I don't.

Blogger Alvin von Diaspar September 21, 2016 3:22 PM  

VD, have you read about the history of the concept "la raza"?

Many alt-rightists and people like Stefan Molyneux like to fling this concept of "la raza" as proof that Hispanics profess some sort of racism while at the same time denying a racial identity to whites.

It's curious, because the concept "la raza" was born precisely to grant a sort of identity to a people or a group of people, "Hispanics", that could not claim to belong to a specific race. You have mestizos in Mexico, huge native American nations such as Guatemala, Bolivia or Ecuador, large white populations in Chile or Argentina... Hispanics could not claim to have a race and they created the concept of "la raza", which was moral, spiritual, linguistic, cultural and racial at the same time. La raza was the race of people of no race, of the mestizos, of the natives, even of the mulatos in countries like Venezuela, and even of the whites descended from Spaniards in countries like Cuba or the Southern Cone. La raza was a concept design to unify what was distinct, not to separate.

Because of this, you could never be a member of La Raza, because you do not speak Spanish or partake in the Spanish-speaking sphere, even if you can claim to have a Mexican ancestor.

Blogger Jew613 September 21, 2016 3:26 PM  

Brian S, you asked about German reparations, the reparations agreement was signed in 1952, and the entire agreement was for around 20 billion dollars. Partially in German Marks and partially in finished goods such as trains, firetrucks, turbines for power plants. It was settled in entirety decades ago. The reparations were to pay for the resettlement of Jewish refugees and a partial repayment for property taken from the victims. In 2013 as a humanitarian gesture Germany set up a fund to give aid to 60,000 survivors still living in Israel. The entire fund was for 772 million Euros.

Blogger tz September 21, 2016 3:26 PM  

It is not so much the alt-West is "pro-Israel" as it believes that Jews have the same rights to their nation. I don't see them wanting to increase the subsidy.

The Alt-White also seems to be narrower than mere "white", wanting anglo-whatevers for the USA (some of it is tied in with the South), and maybe some German, and nordics because they are blond even if they are Lutheran socialists. But they are less interested in those from Southern or Eastern Europe.

The civilization thing seems less relevant than your genome. Come with your DNA profile.

That was one of Hitler's problems - he fought two fronts, but apparently Belarus isn't "white". And Tojo was an ally.

I should also note the converse, that there are many alt-White who are as much or more alt-West - they want America 1.0's constitution, discuss the Confederacy in that context, want very limited government, Christendom, and only note that it seems to only work when Whites were running it.

Conversely, there are some Alt-White that are Anti-Alt-West.

@17 - Yes, let Israel figure it out without interference. Right now there is this complex pressuring Israel not to do things like settlements but pledging fealty. End all that. Let Israel be Israel, let Palestinians figure out how to deal with it, and we can stay out and worry about how to deal with the broken families and massive debts here.

I also have to interrupt and note again how Asians aren't part of the discussion. Somehow we haven't noticed we went back to Cooley labor but offshore. Their desire not to disrupt things (but just sit back and gradually push things) might become a problem.

The Alt-West insists on a strong definition, so a Justice Thomas or Dr. Carson can be allies if not part - an honorary member if necessary - but there are very few like them. Al Sharpton and Lewis Farrakahn are far on the other side. Once you eliminate either condescension or virtue signalling and insist on fixed standards, you can have far more friendly relations across racial boundaries.

The Alt-Lite is like France supporting the Continental Army. The support is welcome, but they are outside of the orbit. However after victory all will benefit.

Another simple point is if there are (((dual-loyalties))) they need be be forced to choose one side or the other. If they are loyal to Israel, move there, or be here as an alien. If they are loyal to the USA, then they must put America first instead of Israel.

Another observation, Judiasm is extremely nationalistic and worried about race. Christianity isn't (except as prudential judgements).

The other thing is we've watched long enough as many refused to burn the bridges with where they came from when they came West. This goes to Hoyt and Ameriboo. The first problem was just allowing the shell or the superficial part to change and calling that assimilation.

Anonymous Adriano September 21, 2016 3:32 PM  

@cataline - how would "the people who eegularly comment on this blog" know fucking anything about the roots of the alt white? What strawman are we now? Skinhead KKK members or criminal degenerates or both? Tell me oh wise one. You come off as a Blue pilled pearl clutcher. Because you must not be totally brain-dead, I expect that you can learn something from the horse's mouth:
http://www.dailystormer.com/a-normies-guide-to-the-alt-right/

Blogger Jew613 September 21, 2016 3:35 PM  

Brian s, if you're looking for some first hand accounts of the 48 conflict I'd recommend
1. The Revolt by Menachem Begin
2. The First Tithe by Yisrael Eldad
3. A Soldier with the Arabs John Bagot Glubb
4. 1948: A History of the First Arab–Israeli War by Benny Morris

Blogger Brian S September 21, 2016 3:38 PM  

thanks

Anonymous SciVo de Plorable September 21, 2016 3:40 PM  

@ bob k. mando: actually, the various strains of White Nationalism which wish to go the National Socialist / Fascist route aren't "Alternative Right" at all.

I agree. We (or I guess they) have a fantastic opportunity here for branding. By the power of rhyme, alt-white is right-only, and therefore excludes socialists.

Blogger Deplorable Gaiseric September 21, 2016 3:41 PM  

Alvin von Diaspar wrote:Because of this, you could never be a member of La Raza, because you do not speak Spanish or partake in the Spanish-speaking sphere, even if you can claim to have a Mexican ancestor.
Don't be ridiculous. Just because ethnogenesis happened in historical times and people actually know exactly how it happened doesn't mean that it didn't happen.

That's a slippery slope towards the idea that there's no such thing as any race at all.

Anonymous Daniel September 21, 2016 3:42 PM  

Well I dont think the Alt-West is popular. Not sure if you meant to imply it is, the alt-lite is popular.

The concern this article raises in me is that I wonder if the Right Wing in the 1950s was having a similar debate. That while "of course the white race is necessary to Western Civilization it isnt everything" which ended up exiling the racialist thought from the movement, leaving only the low info or the strawmans to picked at by other forces that wanted to hijack conservatism. Obviously we see where this has led, to Rick Wilson and Eric Erickson.

Moreover I am less than enthused by what could be interpreted as preening in the face of the Alt-White. Racial thought will probably be more attractive to rubes than abstract cultural arguments (as evidenced by the relatively few blogs constituting the Alt-West and them being much smaller than the likes of therightstuff or dailystormer), however the ability of the alt-west to outfox some rando with a nazi anime avatar should never be mistaken for the simple fact that HBD and race realism are the bedrock of our ideas.

Also, Vox, when people say White Identity or White Identity Politics or White Nationalism... that doesnt mean they dont accept non-white allies. They just expect those allies to at least be pro-white in a practical sense.

Anonymous Ezekiel Cassandros September 21, 2016 3:45 PM  

"I agree. We (or I guess they) have a fantastic opportunity here for branding. By the power of rhyme, alt-white is right-only, and therefore excludes socialists."

Fascists will tell you the same thing about democracy. Except possibly with an extremely limited franchise.

Depends on what you decide the "left-right" axis is, really.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash September 21, 2016 3:48 PM  

Jaded Diaspora wrote:If the alt white wing is indeed less uniformly Christian, I wonder how much of that (at least as far as the US is concerned) is push-back against an evangelical culture that has been all too willing to be led around by the nose by cuckservative GOP pandering. Or is it more a function of a left-leaning churchian culture that has increasingly made nice with SJW causes?
It comes from the same place that the unjustifiably arrogant combox Atheist I Fucking Love Science thing comes from. A desperate desire to be better than the people around you, especially your parents. Particularly when there's no justification for accounting yourself better, you can boast of your White Skin, or you can hate people for having darker skin. Or hate them and sneer at them for being ignorant snake-handling hicks. Same thing.

Anonymous CatholicOne September 21, 2016 3:51 PM  

My identity is predominately Catholic. It shapes my understanding of the world, my understanding of morality and my understanding of God. My identity as some "generic white dude" is only of minimal importance.

My primary concern is with Western Civilization. Where I part ways with most mainstream conservatives that play lip service to Western Civilization, is that I don't think it is possible to abstract Western civilization away from Western people (i.e. white Europeans). For example, could Japanese culture continue to exist without the Japanese? I think Germany identity, Italian identity, etc. are important and that each European country has the right to protect their own people. It appears that many on the alt-White are less concerned with the European nations and more concerned with some future White ethnostate. Maybe White Americans feel this way because we are lost. We are not German, English, or Italian, but European mutts.

Blogger Samuel Nock September 21, 2016 3:55 PM  

40% of children under five in Germany have "migrant background."

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/09/21/germany-40-percent-migrant-background/

Article at Alt Lite site Breitbart via Alt White site Daily Stormer...

Blogger Ben Sanderson September 21, 2016 4:01 PM  

The Alt West is simply a brand rip off of the Alt Right. Just come up with your own name. That would be swell, thanks.

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