ALL BLOG POSTS AND COMMENTS COPYRIGHT (C) 2003-2016 VOX DAY. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. REPRODUCTION WITHOUT WRITTEN PERMISSION IS EXPRESSLY PROHIBITED.

Wednesday, September 07, 2016

The Escape of Edward Snowden

I can't believe someone hasn't made a movie about the escape of Edward Snowden already. It's like real-life Mission Impossible:
The tall, lanky American dressed in all black looked familiar. But Ajith, a 44-year-old Sri Lankan refugee seeking asylum in Hong Kong figured the nervous-looking man with the red-rimmed eyes fidgeting in the darkness outside the United Nations building in the Tsim Sha Tsui district of Kowloon was a U.S. army dodger.

Summoned by his immigration lawyer in the late evening of June 10, 2013, Ajith (last names of the refugees in this story have been withheld), a former soldier in the Sri Lankan military, was told the unidentified man was “famous” and needed “protection.” Little else was revealed except that he would be responsible for covertly moving the American around at a moment’s notice.

“I was very happy to help him,” Ajith recalled during a recent interview with the National Post in his small windowless room in Kennedy Town, on the western tip of Hong Kong Island. “This famous person was a refugee too, same as me.”

Earlier that day, that “famous” 29-year-old walked out of the five-star luxury Hotel Mira in Kowloon and sparked an intensive global manhunt not seen since the search for al-Qaeda’s Osama Bin Laden after the Sept. 11, 2001, bombings.

Edward Snowden, a former U.S. intelligence contractor, became the most wanted fugitive in the world after leaking a cache of classified documents to the media detailing extensive cyber spying networks by the U.S. government on its own citizens and governments around the world.

To escape the long arm of American justice, the man responsible for the largest national security breach in U.S. history retained a Canadian lawyer in Hong Kong who hatched a plan that included a visit to the UN sub-office where the North Carolina native applied for refugee status to avoid extradition to the U.S.

Fearing the media would surround and follow Snowden — making it easier for the Hong Kong authorities to arrest the one-time Central Intelligence Agency analyst on behalf of the U.S. — his lawyers made him virtually disappear for two weeks from June 10 to June 23, 2013, before he emerged on an Aeroflot airplane bound for Moscow, where he remains stranded today in self-imposed exile.

“That morning, I had minutes to figure out how to get him to the UN, away from the media, and out of harm’s way with the weight of the U.S. government bearing down on him. I did what I had to do, and could do, to help him,” Robert Tibbo, the whistleblower’s lead lawyer in Hong Kong told the Post in a wide-ranging interview, the first detailing the chaotic days of Snowden’s escape three years ago. “They wanted the data and they wanted to shut him down. Our greatest fear was that Ed would be found.”
Snowden is the one true American hero of our time. He may not have sacrificed his life, but he sacrificed his name, his reputation, and his future, and he did it for the American people. It is tragic that so many Americans still vilify him, and prefer to identify with the very people concerning whom he told them the truth.

Labels:

107 Comments:

Blogger Matt September 07, 2016 11:37 AM  

I realize he probably doesn't mean it, but am disappointed Trump claims he'll try to get him back and put on trial.

Anonymous Bart September 07, 2016 11:41 AM  

I've been reading this blog for a couple of years. Maybe the longer-term readers can correct me, but I don't remember there being all this Russian propaganda that I've seen here the last few months. What gives?

Anonymous VFM #6306 September 07, 2016 11:47 AM  

Our courts plea bargain with confessed child-rapist/murderers in America. It isn't tragic that Americans vilify patriots. It is tragic that the patriots haven't put us vampires on long stakes yet. What do you expect of the devil's deluded servants?

We need more patriots, but I don't think we deserve them. Snowden MAGA, and Trump needs to shut up about him.

Blogger Whisker biscuit September 07, 2016 11:53 AM  

Some of the leaked documents claim aliens control our government.

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/welcome/?toURL=http://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelpeck/2014/01/13/iran-says-tall-white-space-aliens-control-america/&refURL=https://www.google.com/&referrer=https://www.google.com/

Blogger Mr.MantraMan September 07, 2016 11:54 AM  

Weaponsman might think differently about Snowden but he has some interesting potential insights into his career

Blogger Mr.MantraMan September 07, 2016 11:54 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Anonymous VFM #6306 September 07, 2016 11:55 AM  

(((phone home)))

Anonymous GY September 07, 2016 11:56 AM  

If Snowden were ever intercepted(ie kidnapped) with the intent to bring him back for trial, he would never make it to US shores alive. He's too much of an embarrassment and a public trial would reveal too many secrets he still knows.

A closed courtroom trial would smack of star chamber justice and Soviet era show trial tactics where the verdict was determined long before the trial ever took place.

My bet is that in some secret government archive somewhere there exists a transcript of this future trial, all ready to be released to the American public. Detailing Snowden's guilt and his "treasonous" actions.

Nope, Edward Snowden, like Julian Assange are dead men walking but it's too 'hot' at the moment to dispose of them without even more bad publicity being generated against the US gov't in an election year.

Blogger The Other Robot September 07, 2016 11:56 AM  

Uh oh. WWIII just started (although most don't know it yet!)

Hungary becomes first European nation to ban Rothschild Banks.

Blogger The Other Robot September 07, 2016 11:58 AM  

@4: You mean like Huma Abedin?

Blogger HanSolo September 07, 2016 11:58 AM  

Snowden movie coming out Sept. 16

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlSAiI3xMh4

Blogger Whisker biscuit September 07, 2016 12:04 PM  

Debbie Wasserman-Shultz!

Anonymous Wyrd September 07, 2016 12:05 PM  

OT:

Stefan Molyneux posted yesterday an excellent video in which he and Dr. Duke Pesta discuss how Christianity built Western Civilization:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-eUnj1ATMc

It is to Molyneux's credit he doesn't let his atheism get in the way of evidence.

Anonymous 27 year old September 07, 2016 12:09 PM  

All those noble brown illegal immigrants who risked their lives to help him ...

(eye roll)

OpenID randkoch September 07, 2016 12:11 PM  

Trump is right. You might rethink this.

I can't see how a nationalist would support what Snowden did. Maybe if we were living in a police state, but we're not -- unless you count what PCism is doing, and the NSA plays no part in that.

As it is, much of what Snowden exposed affected people in other countries. And those other countries now know where our blind spots are. Lindbergh's America First was for a strong America, and wasn't opposed to the FBI or OSS.

Oliver Stone probably chose to exaggerate what was going on in his movie because there wasn't enough there. People who remember Will Smith's Enemy of the State would be disappointed.

Blogger haus frau September 07, 2016 12:12 PM  

@14 "All those noble brown illegal immigrants who risked their lives to help him ...

(eye roll)"

and those privileged white lawyers who took advantage of their legal vulnerability knowing they couldn't say no. ....That said, I'm glad they did it.

Anonymous ZhukovG September 07, 2016 12:21 PM  

@15 OK, let me rethink this....
....nope Snowden is still an American hero, who poked his thumb in the Eye of Sauron.

Perhaps you should rethink equating Mordor on the Potomac with the American Nation.

OpenID basementhomebrewer September 07, 2016 12:22 PM  

I would agree that he is a true patriot that has been vilified up and down for informing the American people that the government was violating it's own laws.

The elites put out a full court press as soon as the news broke in which every news personality and politician condemned him as a traitor. It appears those tactics have worked even on some of the readers here.

Blogger VD September 07, 2016 12:24 PM  

I can't see how a nationalist would support what Snowden did.

That's because you are confusing nation with state. He sacrificed himself for the nation against the interests of the state.

Anonymous DissidentRight September 07, 2016 12:24 PM  

I can't see how a nationalist would support what Snowden did. Maybe if we were living in a police state, but we're not -- unless you count what PCism is doing, and the NSA plays no part in that.

The Federal government and its agencies stand opposed to the American Nation. What the NSA was (is) doing remains unacceptable. Snowden barely scratched the surface.

Blogger pyrrhus September 07, 2016 12:26 PM  

@15 I'm not going to "rethink" Snowden, the man is a giant of courage, and revealed vast volumes of official lawbreaking and even treason. And a regime that classifies military veterans and constitutionalists as likely "terrorists" doesn't deserve to exist....Nor do I see any legitimate reason to be spying on our allies except to preserve America as puppet master of the world...

Blogger James Dixon September 07, 2016 12:31 PM  

Compare what Snowden did as a patriot to what Hillary has done as a traitor, and the relative prices they've paid, and you'll know all you need to know about the legitimacy of our current government.

> I can't see how a nationalist would support what Snowden did.

No, you can't see how a statist would support what Snowden did. The nation is not the state. He did what he did in support of the nation.

> Maybe if we were living in a police state, but we're not...

Sure we're not. Keep telling yourself that.

OpenID randkoch September 07, 2016 12:31 PM  

That's because you are confusing nation with state. He sacrificed himself for the nation against the interests of the state.

Not really. In this case, the nation and the state have the same interests.

I'd agree it could be different if the NSA was spying on the nation. But it wasn't, as far as these programs went. I realize the media made it look like it was spying on us, but it wasn't.

OpenID basementhomebrewer September 07, 2016 12:31 PM  

pyrrhus wrote:@15 Nor do I see any legitimate reason to be spying on our allies except to preserve America as puppet master of the world...

That I do not agree with. There is a legitimate reason to keep independent tabs on your allies. Mainly because, one day, they might decide they aren't your allies and it's nice to know that before the knife enters your back.

All that being said I will agree that the type of spying we are performing on our allies is way over the top.

Blogger Alexandros September 07, 2016 12:34 PM  

Especially if these allies are our (((greatest ally)))

Blogger S1AL September 07, 2016 12:34 PM  

Snowden, at a bare minimum, reported the malfeasance of employees to their employers. Who can be opposed to that?

OpenID randkoch September 07, 2016 12:35 PM  

#20: And a regime that classifies military veterans and constitutionalists as likely "terrorists" doesn't deserve to exist....

It wasn't the NSA that did that.

But you do remind us of another reason to support Trump.

Blogger kurt9 September 07, 2016 12:37 PM  

Snowden is a hero because he provided the details about the unaccountable "shadow" government that we have. A central tenet and objective of the alt-right should be the dismantle of this "shadow" government.

Blogger kurt9 September 07, 2016 12:38 PM  

VD is correct. The state, particularly the "shadow" state, is not the nation. When the state opposes the nation, the state must be reformed or eliminated. The state exists to serve the nation, not the other way around.

OpenID randkoch September 07, 2016 12:40 PM  

21. He did what he did in support of the nation.

I seriously doubt that his motives were in support of this nation. Consider who he gave the documents to. Glenn Greenwald is not a nationalist or a patriot in any form.

Blogger kurt9 September 07, 2016 12:40 PM  

One thing that both libertarians (that is, me) and alt-right types (the lot of you) can agree on is the need to dismantle the "shadow" government that Snowden has warned us about.

Anonymous Case September 07, 2016 12:43 PM  

Your cell phone is a government monitoring device, and some people still can't accept that they're spied on at the whim of the state?

Other than that, when all of the Snowden news was breaking, I was surprised that he was naive enough to believe that he would be safe in Western Europe. Even a lowly mundane like myself understands that Western Europe is held firmly under the same thumb which controls the U.S.

Anonymous Michael Kingswood September 07, 2016 12:46 PM  

"Snowden is the one true American hero of our time. "

That's overstating it a tad. More than a tad.

If all he had done was release the NSA spying documents, that would be one thing. That isn't legitimate whistle-blowing - there's an above-board way to do that which he didn't even attempt - but at least it's something you could make a moral (if not legal) case for.

But he did MUCH more than that. He released technical specs, tactical manuals, war plans, and operating procedures for all manner of military systems and platforms that have nothing whatsoever to do with the things he supposedly found so abhorrent in the NSA, and many of which have not been publically discussed. This did actual, real harm. Not to mention the actual harm that came to a number of our operatives and agents as a result of his actions.

At first, I was a bit of a Snowden apologist as well. Then I learned the rest of the story of what he did.

You've totally missed the boat in your analysis of this one.

Anonymous Hezekiah Garrett September 07, 2016 12:46 PM  

@23 You are a (((liar))).

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 September 07, 2016 12:49 PM  

kurt9 wrote:Snowden is a hero because he provided the details about the unaccountable "shadow" government that we have. A central tenet and objective of the alt-right should be the dismantle of this "shadow" government.

Won't happen without revolutionary violence. It's too systemic and ingrained to be uprooted peacefully.

Blogger guest September 07, 2016 12:50 PM  

Snowden is a great American hero. One more thing to detest about Trump. He wants to execute Snowden.

OpenID randkoch September 07, 2016 12:54 PM  

Hezekiah Garrett wrote:@23 You are a (((liar))).

Wrong on both counts.

Blogger dh September 07, 2016 12:59 PM  

> Not really. In this case, the nation and the state have the same interests.

No, I disagree. The state cares about internal domestic all-seeing intelligence, which they claimed was not happening, when it was.

The nation does not want, and does not need it, and knows it's a huge waste of time and resources. Whatever criminals we have inside the country can be dealt with legally and under US law, as it always has been. Our biggest threats are external, or recently internalized.

Spending massive resources and manpower and time on trying to find internal threats that aren't there with dragnet surveillance is not in the interests of the people.

Anonymous A Visitor September 07, 2016 1:00 PM  

"Snowden is the one true American hero of our time. He may not have sacrificed his life, but he sacrificed his name, his reputation, and his future, and he did it for the American people. It is tragic that so many Americans still vilify him, and prefer to identify with the very people concerning whom he told them the truth."

The majority of what he took had nothing to do with the NSA's systematic violations of our 4th Amendment rights. Had he left it at that, he'd be a hero. He is a traitor; the only major difference between him and Hillary is the the last name.

"And those other countries now know where our blind spots are."

@15 Exactly. Some of the stuff I saw on the classified side would scare the pants off most Americans. I wish the general American public could see what I saw and what those still on the inside, like SherwoodFamily, see. Maybe then, they'd understand Ed did us a disservice as a nation in the end.

"Nor do I see any legitimate reason to be spying on our allies except to preserve America as puppet master of the world..."

@21 I usually hate making WWII references since they're so hackneyed but we were allied with Japan pre-Pearl Harbor. Our allies spy on us, too. We need to know what they're thinking and vice versa. I'm not saying I agree with it.

"I seriously doubt that his motives were in support of this nation. Consider who he gave the documents to. "

@30 Consider where he ended up too. Schindler has a good piece on the Russian government admitting Snowden is an SVR asset.

"At first, I was a bit of a Snowden apologist as well. Then I learned the rest of the story of what he did."

@33 I was too and then saw the full extent of what he did. That was too while I was still on the other side of the coin, so to speak.

Blogger Nate September 07, 2016 1:01 PM  

Amen. and Amen.

Snowden is absolutely an american hero.

Blogger James Dixon September 07, 2016 1:03 PM  

> I'd agree it could be different if the NSA was spying on the nation. But it wasn't, as far as these programs went.

At which point I can safely conclude you are completely delusional. The hell they weren't.

> Consider who he gave the documents to. Glenn Greenwald is not a nationalist or a patriot in any form.

He was someone who could and would publicly release the documents. That's all that mattered.

Anonymous BGKB September 07, 2016 1:05 PM  

The most important thing Snowden Leaked was the Rivkin document showing it was part of the (((plan))) to import 3rd world savages to destroy culture. That alone should excuse him of all charges.

Maybe Snowden can convert to Judaism & use the TPP (((elites wet dream))) of investor-state dispute settlement system (ISDS)to pick 2 jews for arbitration like this guy wanted by Interpol.

"Rafat Ali Rizvi had a big problem: In Indonesia, where he’d plied his trade, he and a business partner had been convicted of embezzling more than $300 million from one of the country’s banks.... plucked the fair-treatment provision from another agreement and applied it to the Islamic nations pact. In effect, he constructed his own super-treaty.

And the ISDS arbitrators allowed it, giving themselves the authority to rule on the actual merits of the case...

unless Interpol dropped its red alerts against Rizvi and al-Warraq, the international cops themselves would be violating international law. Interpol obliged, deleting the red notices.

“Unprecedented Concessions by Interpol,” trumpeted a press release put out on behalf of Martha’s firm. The international cops also had agreed to delete information about the two convicts from its files and to send letters to certain risk profiling and due diligence agencies, as well as the roughly 190 Interpol member countries, according to the release.

http://www.thedailysheeple.com/secret-global-court-why-corporate-criminals-and-corrupt-politicians-desperately-want-the-tpp_092016

Blogger James Dixon September 07, 2016 1:06 PM  

> But he did MUCH more than that. He released technical specs, tactical manuals, war plans, and operating procedures for all manner of military systems and platforms that have nothing whatsoever to do with the things he supposedly found so abhorrent in the NSA, and many of which have not been publically discussed. This did actual, real harm.

Omelet; eggs.

OpenID randkoch September 07, 2016 1:08 PM  

Michael Kingswood wrote:...
But he did MUCH more than that. He released technical specs, tactical manuals, war plans, and operating procedures for all manner of military systems and platforms that have nothing whatsoever to do with the things he supposedly found so abhorrent in the NSA, and many of which have not been publically discussed. This did actual, real harm. Not to mention the actual harm that came to a number of our operatives and agents as a result of his actions.
...


Well said.

I think part of the disagreement over Snowden is not agreeing on what he did, who he did it to, and who he did it for.

He's no nationalist.

Blogger James Dixon September 07, 2016 1:09 PM  

> He's no nationalist.

You don't have to belong to an organization to be a hero for that organization.

Anonymous Hezekiah Garrett September 07, 2016 1:10 PM  

@37. The US doesn't spy on its citizens, per Snowdon's docs?

Maybe you never got snipped, but it's plain who's side (((you're))) on.

Anonymous Maximo Macaroni September 07, 2016 1:13 PM  

Maybe Hillary's open server was her roundabout way of making State Dept. secrets available to the "right people". Could she then claim to be an American heroine?

Blogger mushroom September 07, 2016 1:15 PM  

randkoch wrote:Trump is right. You might rethink this.

I can't see how a nationalist would support what Snowden did. Maybe if we were living in a police state, but we're not -- unless you count what PCism is doing, and the NSA plays no part in that.

As it is, much of what Snowden exposed affected people in other countries. And those other countries now know where our blind spots are. Lindbergh's America First was for a strong America, and wasn't opposed to the FBI or OSS.

Oliver Stone probably chose to exaggerate what was going on in his movie because there wasn't enough there. People who remember Will Smith's Enemy of the State would be disappointed.



Based on what has gone on during my lifetime (60+ years), I would say that the federal government is my enemy. The federal behemoth is much more than the elected political component.

I used to be "patriotic" enough to condemn someone like Snowden. Now I think anything that weakens the central power is working in my favor.

I supported what Bush did in the aftermath of 9/11. I was wrong. Snowden did the right thing. Being legal doesn't make a thing right, and being illegal doesn't make it wrong.

Blogger mushroom September 07, 2016 1:18 PM  

randkoch wrote:Trump is right. You might rethink this.

I can't see how a nationalist would support what Snowden did. Maybe if we were living in a police state, but we're not -- unless you count what PCism is doing, and the NSA plays no part in that.

As it is, much of what Snowden exposed affected people in other countries. And those other countries now know where our blind spots are. Lindbergh's America First was for a strong America, and wasn't opposed to the FBI or OSS.

Oliver Stone probably chose to exaggerate what was going on in his movie because there wasn't enough there. People who remember Will Smith's Enemy of the State would be disappointed.



Based on what has gone on during my lifetime (60+ years), I would say that the federal government is my enemy. The federal behemoth is much more than the elected political component.

I used to be "patriotic" enough to condemn someone like Snowden. Now I think anything that weakens the central power is working in my favor.

I supported what Bush did in the aftermath of 9/11. I was wrong. Snowden did the right thing. Being legal doesn't make a thing right, and being illegal doesn't make it wrong.

OpenID randkoch September 07, 2016 1:37 PM  

Being legal doesn't make a thing right, and being illegal doesn't make it wrong.

Agree to a point. But that only means it's not relevant to whether or not what Snowden did was right.

I get that there's a world of difference between the nation and the state. But harming the state can also harm the nation.

Snowden can only be right if he helped the nation, and by that I mean our nation first of all.

Well, he didn't help the American nation. All the criticism that you all have about the U.S. government is about things that the NSA played no part of. Snowden didn't help you there at all. He helped China, Russia, Iran, etc.

Anonymous Random September 07, 2016 1:37 PM  

What Mushroom said, twice.

Snowden is a hero and a patriot, putting his countrymen ahead of his government.

Blogger James Dixon September 07, 2016 1:44 PM  

> But that only means it's not relevant to whether or not what Snowden did was right.

It always matters whether something someone has done is wrong or right.

> I get that there's a world of difference between the nation and the state. But harming the state can also harm the nation.

Right now, the biggest threat to our nation is our state. Anything that harms it is probably good for the nation.

> Well, he didn't help the American nation.

Only because it's not yet ready to be helped.

Blogger VD September 07, 2016 1:45 PM  

In this case, the nation and the state have the same interests.

Bullshit. You're absolutely and utterly wrong. The state has been actively attempting to destroy the nation for decades. There are very, very few interests in common any longer.

Blogger beerme September 07, 2016 1:46 PM  

Snowden is the nation's greatest hero during this "War on Terror". I'm shocked, shocked that the same people assembling this domestic spying apparatus are the same people importing kebabs to justify their intrusions on the rights and liberties on the nation's people. He may be a traitor to the state, but he isn't one to the nation(s).

Blogger Yvonne Lorenzo September 07, 2016 1:48 PM  

Thank you for your wonderful and wise remarks, Vox:

"Snowden is the one true American hero of our time. He may not have sacrificed his life, but he sacrificed his name, his reputation, and his future, and he did it for the American people."

Snowden's campaign is here: https://fundrazr.com/6mzUd

Blogger herfsi September 07, 2016 1:49 PM  

but, but, he "signed" a "thing" "promising" that he wouldn't reveal stuff!
but yeah, sometimes you have to do what you have to do.

Blogger The Kurgan September 07, 2016 1:55 PM  

Yup. Snowden has steel balls and the heart of lion.
May he live long and prosper.

Anonymous TLM September 07, 2016 2:05 PM  

The rah rah Snowden is a traitor Red, White, & Blue Americans are the same ones who know local police departments are buying Stingray devices to spy on us without cause and do nothing about it but refer to cops as 'Heros'. Sad.

OpenID randkoch September 07, 2016 2:05 PM  

Bullshit. You're absolutely and utterly wrong. The state has been actively attempting to destroy the nation for decades. There are very, very few interests in common any longer.

Defense is still a common interest. I realize that some might think Snowden's weakening our defense and foreign policy could cause us to withdraw from the rest of the world, but that's a different issue.

The state has indeed been weakening the nation. My point is that the NSA and its programs weren't a part of that.

What Snowden did weakened the state only in our overseas relations. The state remains just as strong internally. It might even be stronger.

Blogger James Dixon September 07, 2016 2:10 PM  

> My point is that the NSA and its programs weren't a part of that.

And if there were a snowballs chance in hell that you were correct, you might have a point. They were always "a part of that". You're simply wrong.

Blogger Chris Mallory September 07, 2016 2:11 PM  

"The state has indeed been weakening the nation. My point is that the NSA and its programs weren't a part of that."

Unauthorized spying on the American people isn't weakening the nation?
Keeping records of most phone calls made in the US isn't weakening the nation?
Gathering emails through PRISM isn't weakening the nation?


Every NSA employee is a traitor to the traditional American people.

Blogger allyn71 September 07, 2016 2:12 PM  

@randcock

The state has indeed been weakening the nation. My point is that the NSA and its programs weren't a part of that.

Did Snowden reveal that the NSA was spying on Americans?

Blogger Chris Mallory September 07, 2016 2:13 PM  

"He helped China, Russia, Iran, etc."

None of which are a threat to the American people.

Anonymous LastRedoubt September 07, 2016 2:13 PM  

My general position would be, he broke his oath, and should suffer the consequences.

THAT said, he's a fucking hero who followed a higher standard, and revealed malfeasance and misdeeds. He is still - and even if pardoned, likely will remain - risking his life for what he did.

He deserves a full fucking pardon.

Anonymous GreyS September 07, 2016 2:18 PM  

Absolutely an American hero, especially considering how many thousands of U.S. citizens looked the other way and went along with the state-- and still do.

Anonymous LastRedoubt September 07, 2016 2:19 PM  

@James Dixon

Compare what Snowden did as a patriot to what Hillary has done as a traitor, and the relative prices they've paid, and you'll know all you need to know about the legitimacy of our current government.


His tweet on the day of the FBI announcement was a thing of beauty...

"Break classification rules for the public's benefit, and you could be exiled. Do it for personal benefit, and you could be President,"

OpenID randkoch September 07, 2016 2:22 PM  

I think there's a general disagreement over what exactly has been going on.

It wasn't all that long ago that people would jokingly say the words "bomb" and "nuke" and "Allah" in their phone conversations thinking that they might annoy someone at the NSA. Now after Snowden, we're arguing over the storage of phone numbers that a federal judge has to look approve the retrieval.

Anonymous Sam the Man September 07, 2016 2:23 PM  

A bit ambivalent on Snowden. He should not have released secret technical stuff, that is treason. Yet once he made the step to release anything, to make himself worth being protected by some other power he had to take something of value to them. So in his action he was sort of assured of being branded a traitor by any patriot.

Yet look at what he did do: the head of the NSA got up before congress and lied about monitoring of the general populace, an action that was against the 4th amendment, the supposed highest law of the land. Not only were his actions illegal (NSA director), but he lied to congress and the executive branch which knew this to be the case allowed the lying testimony to happen, nor made any effort to correct it. Such malfeasance has to be exposed, to hell with the consequences. In that Snowden is a hero.

Now let us look at how the government reacted: No one was tried for violating the 4th amendment, no one was tried for lying to congress (a 5 year penalty). It seems that the only thing they were concerned with was getting Snowden.

By their actions both the executive and legislative branches of the Federal government they show what they believe in, and it is not good. By their acts you will know them: the government has made no effort at reform, Snowden did reveal evil at a high price to himself.

Now we get to the classified stuff he revealed. We are told it is grievous, and that we cannot be told what it is, so secret was this material. Yet the folks telling us this are known to be liars, and since the stuff has supposedly been revealed, what harm is there in telling us what it is? Further if there were other sources/leaks (such as the Clintons) would he not be a convenient scapegoat? I do not know the truth but something my father once told he comes back: when judging two stories, which of the two persons telling you has had an issue with telling the truth in the past, most of the time they will be the liar, not the other person, no matter how outlandish it might appear.

Something is rotten in our government, and having family in it I can tell you they all make an effort to look the other way rather than face what it implies.

Blogger Elder Son September 07, 2016 2:23 PM  

All within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state.

Obviously, some people call this patriotism, and will call Snowden a traitor.

Then there are the young people who only know, what they know, in the environment, that they have been brainwashed in.

Then there are the truly ignorant who turn on the booboisie tube and believe they are being educated.

There is a massive amount of info out there how our government has put us all in a technological jail-house. From the highest echelons of the federal government, all the way down to our local police dept. And, if the NSA is not spying on Americans, then how is it they are sharing "criminal" information snooped out of all the massive data they collect, with our local police? The fact is, our government has turned every unlawful act into a national security matter. And it is deeper than that. We are ALL suspects. Even now, as we type.

I'm betting most people haven't noticed those small poles on the side of their highways with solar panels on top attached to a box, and what they are.

I used to have a massive amount of links on another computer whose hard-drive took a dump and it is all lost.

Here is one small corner in the internet that you can start at: http://massprivatei.blogspot.com/

And if you are cool with some of this crap, go hang yourself. At 57, I know where we were, I've seen where we are heading, I was appalled of the giant leap after Dial Emergency 9-1-1, and it takes no imagination of where we are heading.

The Tyranny of 9/11: The Building Blocks of the American Police State from A-Z - http://www.rutherford.org/publications_resources/john_whiteheads_commentary/the_tyranny_of_9_11_the_building_blocks_of_the_american_police_state_f

Anonymous Bart September 07, 2016 2:26 PM  

@22 James Dixon - "[Snowden] did what he did in support of the nation."

Yeah, but which one?

Blogger FALPhil September 07, 2016 2:27 PM  

@15 randkoch wrote:
I can't see how a nationalist would support what Snowden did. Maybe if we were living in a police state, but we're not -- unless you count what PCism is doing, and the NSA plays no part in that.

Says who? If the USA was not in a police state, police would be held accountable for people they kill. How is it "land of the free" police kill over 1,000 people a year, yet in Red China with over a billion people, police kill 50-60 people? If the US was not a police state, people could make their bank deposits any way they want. Why, in the USA, is an attorney who makes five deposits greater than $9,000 but less than $10,000 over a couple of months arrested, tried, and convicted of "structuring"? If the USA was not a police state, you could travel with $14,000 cash in your car to buy a small business and not have to worry about the authorities. Why , in the USA, if you get pulled over for a minor traffic violation, and your car searched for a specious reason does your money and your car get confiscated under "civil" forfeiture?

I want some of what you are smoking, dude.


@30 I seriously doubt that his motives were in support of this nation. Consider who he gave the documents to. Glenn Greenwald is not a nationalist or a patriot in any form.

Greenwald's status is irrelevant. He just happened to have a viable vehicle.

@33 Michael Kingwood wrote:
But he did MUCH more than that. He released technical specs, tactical manuals, war plans, and operating procedures for all manner of military systems and platforms that have nothing whatsoever to do with the things he supposedly found so abhorrent in the NSA, and many of which have not been publically discussed. This did actual, real harm. Not to mention the actual harm that came to a number of our operatives and agents as a result of his actions.

Most of what you are talking about were tools and techniques for spying, domestically or otherwise. I am trying to see a downside from a 4th Amendment perspective.

Blogger Latigo3 September 07, 2016 2:35 PM  

Even if you haven't lived long enough to see the changes, there is enough historical material out there to show anyone where the state has been and where it is going.
While I can't claim to know much of the personal life of Edward Snowden, eventually each man has to choose how he will allow himself to be ruled by those that are in power.
From a Christian perspective I can understand what Edward did. While I do understand Romans 13, even the man who penned the book of Romans had to make a choice. Tomas More had to make a choice, "the good king's servant, but God's first".

The amazing thing about the Internet is that it now allows the truth to be shown so that we are not just listening or reading propaganda. Going against the established authority will have consequences, yet each man has a right to choose.
Too much has changed (and not for the good) since 9/11.
Thanks for the link to this article Vox

Blogger Elder Son September 07, 2016 2:37 PM  

I don't care what one thinks of Dial Emergency 9-1-1. But what a massive traumatic brain/psyche shock it was to the American people that turned their liberties and privacy into jello. And what a perfect excuse to turn America into a National Security Police State.

Just tell the people they are being attacked, then frame the NSPS around it and tell them it is all for their safety and well being. Every step of the NSPS is acclimatization. Imagine where your posterity will be?

Blogger Elder Son September 07, 2016 2:47 PM  

“Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action.”

Imagine where G. Washington was when he said that. Here we are.

“We’re an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you’re studying that reality — judiciously, as you will — we’ll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that’s how things will sort out. We’re history’s actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.” - Karl Rove

Let that sink in real hard.

They spit it right in the faces of Americans, and Americans call it dew. I'm imagining that some of the pro-state can not wrap that around their cranial space.

Anonymous BGKB September 07, 2016 2:58 PM  

My general position would be, he broke his oath, and should suffer the consequences.

The oath is to protect from all enemies foreign and (((domestic))).

"Break classification rules for the public's benefit, and you could be exiled. Do it for personal benefit, and you could be President,"

Almost every cocksucker says the FBI cleared HilLIARy of wrongdoing.

people haven't noticed those small poles on the side of their highways with solar panels on top attached to a box, and what they are

OK what are they?

How is it "land of the free" police kill over 1,000 people a year, yet in Red China with over a billion people, police kill 50-60 people?

How much do you want to bet that niggers/moslems are a majority portion of who red china kills? I know Chinese are willing to crack their skulls.

Blogger Elder Son September 07, 2016 3:00 PM  

OK what are they?

Follow the link and snoop around.

Blogger dc.sunsets September 07, 2016 3:05 PM  

All of this exists because the world is awash in (IOU-dollars) wealth. FedGov managers (the state) have literally limitless resources at their fingertips...a power more addictive than crack and inducing of absolute corruption. We can only marvel at these men and women...and the demons they become. It's a club, and you're not in it.

This will all go away when the credit bubble finally dies. Sooner or later this game will end. I strongly suspect attempts to cobble together some sort of centralized Narrative to maintain consent to Mordor-on-the-Potomac (its managers, of course, since it is actual persons doing this, not some abstraction we call "the state") will fail. Even a nuclear device detonation followed by a full-court press of "blame" Ivan or "blame" Ahmad probably won't rally people behind the scum who currently wield real power.

People are stupid enough to fall for it. What people are NOT, anymore, is cross-culture tolerant.

I think the ruling elite miscalculated this one.

Blogger Some Guy September 07, 2016 3:17 PM  

"What Snowden did weakened the state only in our overseas relations. The state remains just as strong internally. It might even be stronger."

Nope, he brought attention to what the state was doing. By it's own decision, the state places the need of the nation under the needs of it's over seas partners, so by attacking that relationship, you weaken the state.

Blogger Lovekraft September 07, 2016 3:19 PM  

I would nominate James O'Keefe for a True American award.

Blogger Desiderius September 07, 2016 3:38 PM  

"Maybe if we were living in a police state, but we're not -- unless you count what PCism is doing, and the NSA plays no part in that."

Oh I doubt the two are entirely independent of one another. To the extent that they are, the firewall between the two is not high, and what there is is crumbling daily.

Anonymous LastRedoubt September 07, 2016 4:13 PM  

@BGKB

And domestic, period - and I utterly agree - which is why I think he did the right thing even if he betrayed the mechanisms of part of his oath, and deserves a pardon.

OpenID randkoch September 07, 2016 4:57 PM  

For all the complaints I see here, it's funny that the left and (hopefully only some of) the alt-right are on the same side. I'm just glad that Trump is taking a different position.

Says who? If the USA was not in a police state, police would be held accountable for people they kill. How is it "land of the free" police kill over 1,000 people a year, yet in Red China with over a billion people, police kill 50-60 people? If the US was not a police state, people could make their bank deposits any way they want. Why, in the USA, is an attorney who makes five deposits greater than $9,000 but less than $10,000 over a couple of months arrested, tried, and convicted of "structuring"? If the USA was not a police state, you could travel with $14,000 cash in your car to buy a small business and not have to worry about the authorities. Why , in the USA, if you get pulled over for a minor traffic violation, and your car searched for a specious reason does your money and your car get confiscated under "civil" forfeiture?

Interesting points, and generally good ones, but it's not where the NSA was operating.

Most of these things are known and talked about. Cops are held accountable, for the most part. You know as well as I that the #BLM crowd needs to lie to make their points.

The state isn't weakened by weakening the NSA. Obama was elected (pre-Wikileaks and pre-Snowden) in part because of similar types of complaints, such as waterboarding of three jihadis. McCain used the same issues to get as far as he did.

The state only grew stronger.

Most of what you are talking about were tools and techniques for spying, domestically or otherwise. I am trying to see a downside from a 4th Amendment perspective.

That's just it. I don't see the domestic spying the way it's been portrayed. I don't see the cops doing as much unlawful killing either. The hands-up-don't-shoot B.S. pretty much defines what's been going on. And in that case, BLM probably contributes to more black lives being killed.

Blogger FALPhil September 07, 2016 5:13 PM  

@81
That's just it. I don't see the domestic spying the way it's been portrayed.

An this is why there are those of us who weep for America (the nation, not the country). There is no need to be collecting all that information unless there is (1) a warrent, issued by a judge, supported by (2) probable cause. If you don't see the danger in this, you are a lower IQ midwit than I am.

I don't see the cops doing as much unlawful killing either. The hands-up-don't-shoot B.S. pretty much defines what's been going on. And in that case, BLM probably contributes to more black lives being killed.

This is how the squadroes da morte started out in Brazil. Based on everything else you have written, I daresay you will never see the point until they call you from the local blue-uniformed gang headquarters to come pick up your son's corpse because he pointed his finger like a gun at one of their members.

Blogger FALPhil September 07, 2016 5:13 PM  

@81
That's just it. I don't see the domestic spying the way it's been portrayed.

An this is why there are those of us who weep for America (the nation, not the country). There is no need to be collecting all that information unless there is (1) a warrent, issued by a judge, supported by (2) probable cause. If you don't see the danger in this, you are a lower IQ midwit than I am.

I don't see the cops doing as much unlawful killing either. The hands-up-don't-shoot B.S. pretty much defines what's been going on. And in that case, BLM probably contributes to more black lives being killed.

This is how the squadroes da morte started out in Brazil. Based on everything else you have written, I daresay you will never see the point until they call you from the local blue-uniformed gang headquarters to come pick up your son's corpse because he pointed his finger like a gun at one of their members.

Anonymous tublecane September 07, 2016 5:48 PM  

@56-They probably made him swear to uphold the Constitution, too. Or, failing that, they made him pledge allegiance to the flag on school. So many oaths. What happens if one contradicts another?

Anonymous BGKB September 07, 2016 5:57 PM  

WikiLeaks new HilLIARy info next week http://www.thedailysheeple.com/she-is-lying-new-wikileaks-clinton-revelations-as-early-as-next-week-assange-alleges-clinton-knew-c-meant-confidential-on-emails_092016

Blogger Kyle Searle September 07, 2016 6:04 PM  

The Snowden case is already a classic case that separates the security-seeking Cuckservative from the liberty-seeking "Alt-right" ex-libertarian. Great to see this theme continuing.

Anonymous tublecane September 07, 2016 6:12 PM  

@67-A federal judge in a secret court, the evidence probably consisting of "just trust us." Forget about the courts, and the law in general. Forget that there's probably no way they don't look at the data without a warrant, and that they probably run it through routine computer programs that are as good as a search. Forget that it's not all phone numbers and duration of calls, or whatever "metadata" consists of. Forget the enormous incentive for abuse.

The very existence of the program was secret. They didn't bother filling us in, let alone asking permission. How can something so huge as the prism program just happen, with no public input, in a supposed democracy? And not just no input, but bold-face lying about its existence from the administration.

Not to speak of the Orwellian War on Terror State, which has amped up the already insane Cold War National Security State. Back then, at least, they tended to target unsavory elements. Innocents, too, but at least they thought there might be something to them. Now it's everyone and everything, all the time. Every damn thing is either suspect or a clue leading to suspects. That's no way to run a nation.

Not everything is a national security issue. How insecure are they?

Anonymous RedJack September 07, 2016 6:18 PM  

I have family that work in the alphabet soup agencies in DC. The Christmas after Snowden fled the country, we were having supper one night when he came up. Every individual at the table were mad because he violated "his contract". When I asked about his claims of Constitutional law violations, they kept talking about his contract. When I asked if the law applied to the agencies involved, they started quoting contract law.

Simply put, the people who work for the agencies don't really care about the Constitution, they only care that Snowden violated his contract.

Oh, and to any of the NSA people lurking here, pick a user name.

Anonymous tublecane September 07, 2016 6:18 PM  

@73-I think that reality-creators quote is too perfect, sort of like the "we had to destroy the village to save it," or whatever, from Vietnam. It allows people to say what they want to say about power-mad, self-justifying imperialists. But I don't think it's that revealing. They don't do what they do because they think they can create their own reality. They just do it.

People also like quoting it because it lacks sense and is poorly phrased. But those people aren't thinkers. They don't need to make sense. They just do.

Anonymous tublecane September 07, 2016 6:26 PM  

@88-What would they say about a whistler-blower from a Big Oil company, for instance, violating his contract?

Anonymous tublecane September 07, 2016 6:30 PM  

@74-About the FBI clearing her of wrongdoing, no. They don't hold press conferences to do that. They merely declined to recommend prosecution. The rest was neither here nor there, or bafflegab. People are taken in by the simplest PR tricks.

OpenID randkoch September 07, 2016 6:36 PM  

An this is why there are those of us who weep for America (the nation, not the country). There is no need to be collecting all that information unless there is (1) a warrent, issued by a judge, supported by (2) probable cause. If you don't see the danger in this, you are a lower IQ midwit than I am.

They still needed such a warrant to see the data. The difference was that the material was stored beforehand. If it wasn't saved somewhere, it wouldn't be available.

Sure, there's danger. Maybe you've missed what they're doing now. After Snowden, and all the uproar, the gov't now forces the phone companies to store the data for them. They take the same warrant to the same federal judges to see the data. There's danger there, too.

This is how the squadroes da morte started out in Brazil. Based on everything else you have written, I daresay you will never see the point until they call you from the local blue-uniformed gang headquarters to come pick up your son's corpse because he pointed his finger like a gun at one of their members.

We're not in Brazil. When this sort of thing happens in the U.S. -- and it could -- it will be because the SJWs let it happen even while pretending they oppose it. Complaining about the NSA isn't going to stop that. Everything the SJWs say they oppose they will let happen when their side is doing it.

Anonymous DavidKathome September 07, 2016 6:37 PM  

It is telling that the Snowden haters haven't produced one example of something he took from the NSA that makes him a traitor.

I can tell you why the NSA considers him a traitor. He revealed their super secret yearly budget. That puts them at a disadvantage against other agencies with super secret budgets when it comes time to feed at the secret feeding trough of taxpayer dollars.

Anonymous Ominous Cowherd September 07, 2016 7:54 PM  

randkoch wrote:We're not in Brazil. When this sort of thing happens in the U.S. -- and it could ...

Absent a Snowden, how would we ever know if it did happen here?

Blogger JimR September 07, 2016 8:11 PM  

@93 did Brazil have a Snowden?

Blogger James Dixon September 07, 2016 8:19 PM  

> Interesting points, and generally good ones, but it's not where the NSA was operating.

No it wasn't. They were busy snooping on every phone call, every email, and every text message sent by every American, and funneling that information to anyone in the government who requested it.

> That's just it. I don't see the domestic spying the way it's been portrayed.

Your selective blindness is your problem, not ours.

> They still needed such a warrant to see the data.

A warrant issued by a secret panel of judges who almost never turns them down, whether there's any evidence or not. A warrant that accused never gets to see or contest. That others involved can't even tell him about. Yeah, that's some warrant.

> the gov't now forces the phone companies to store the data for them.

Maybe you missed that they were already doing that under the Bush administration.

> When this sort of thing happens in the U.S. -- and it could

It already has. Unarmed teenagers have already been shot.

OpenID randkoch September 07, 2016 8:27 PM  

Absent a Snowden, how would we ever know if it did happen here?

There are mechanisms for whistleblowers that Snowden could have used.

In matter of national security, our politicians are supposed to know. In this case, they did. Even after this gets out, they still aren't doing anything to stop it. The same data is still being retained.

Maybe this isn't as big a deal as you've been led to believe. People used to believe things were much worse. I still don't think Oliver Stone is going tell this story without embellishing it a lot. That's a pretty big test right there. It really is like the story of Trayvon Martin's killing, which SJWs are incapable of telling without leaving a big hole.

OpenID randkoch September 07, 2016 8:52 PM  

No it wasn't. They were busy snooping on every phone call, every email, and every text message sent by every American, and funneling that information to anyone in the government who requested it.

Every American?

A warrant issued by a secret panel of judges who almost never turns them down, whether there's any evidence or not. A warrant that accused never gets to see or contest. That others involved can't even tell him about. Yeah, that's some warrant.

Andrew McCarthy once said that they're rarely turned down because they don't ask for one unless they think it can go through.

Regardless, not liking the FISA process doesn't mean you can say that there wasn't one.

In other words, not every American.

It already has. Unarmed teenagers have already been shot.

Maybe you meant, a teenager with a toy gun that had the orange color intentionally stripped from it so that it would look real.

Anonymous Hezekiah Garrett September 07, 2016 10:30 PM  

@97. "
Maybe you meant, a teenager with a toy gun that had the orange color intentionally stripped from it so that it would look real."

Dylan Noble. Ryan Bollinger.

So you're an IGNORANT (((liar)))?

Blogger Michael Deloatch September 07, 2016 10:48 PM  

I hope you kiddies realize some day that any movies about E.S. will be works of fiction about a work of fiction. E.S. is a freaking cgi psy op my dear ones. You are all being herded into false dialectical tents. Nothing the character named e.s. revealed was in substance not already known to anyone who was moderately informed. CGI may well be powerful enough to render a pretty good illusion minus a nose guard. Maybe like we were taught in Sunday School the Omnipotent sees our every move... so maybe big bro wants you to think he hears every thought you think and e.s. is there to reinforce that? Better watch out the big, bad AI gonna get you all for your sins.

Blogger Elder Son September 07, 2016 10:48 PM  

Everything gets sucked up. Then they use an algorithm to look for key words, sentences, paragraphs, structure, etc.

Ya know, like the man who "reads" BOOKS.

While they may not be LOOKING AT YOU, innocent people get looked at. And some of those innocent people get the microscope.

But then, there are people on this planet, who believe that every agency that has all this capability, is filled with people of the most high righteousness, and virtue.

They internet of things, in the spy-world is here. And it is expanding. Imagine what they are going to do with those Quantum computers.

We are aware of some of the things Snowden saw inside the agency. I am sure his conscience was pricked over and over again. And if this is what they are doing in the light, what are they doing in the dark? This is why Snowden, rather than take a fist full of dollars, took the gold vault.

OpenID randkoch September 07, 2016 10:55 PM  

Apologies.

I'd completely forgotten that the definition of ((("teenager"))) often includes 19 and 28 year-olds making runs at suicide-by-cop. Sad cases, to be sure, but not exactly a sign that we're living in a police state.

Or maybe I need to watch (((V for Vendetta))) again. Please don't ask me to.

Anonymous brentg September 08, 2016 12:51 AM  

wow - lots of pro-state trolls in this one

Blogger Elder Son September 08, 2016 3:07 AM  

Food for thought (and the NSA): They Will Never Confiscate Your Guns. Instead, You’ll Hand Them Over - http://www.alloutdoor.com/2016/08/31/democrats-will-never-confiscate-guns-instead-youll-hand/

And concerning the NSA, there is one small link article you should also go to. You don't think the NSA has all this info on you? Imagine what Facebook has on Billions.

Anonymous Sagramore September 08, 2016 10:58 AM  

@102 And SJW quality sophistry to boot.

That said, Snowdon haso epilepsy and should have never had a clearance, which leads me to my conclusion he was a CIA ratfucker, wittingly or unwittingly, against DIA.

Anonymous Sagramore September 08, 2016 11:07 AM  

@61 Every NSA apologist argument boils down to "oh noes, the bad guys will use OPSEC."

Guess what? I've been given informal OPSEC clinics to medical pot growers for over 20 years now. Everything he leaked we figured the government was doing anyway.

Post a Comment

Rules of the blog
Please do not comment as "Anonymous". Comments by "Anonymous" will be spammed.

<< Home

Newer Posts Older Posts