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Tuesday, July 11, 2017

Unvaccinated children pose no risk to others

A Harvard immunologist corrects a common misconception on the part of vaccine advocates:
Do unvaccinated children pose a higher threat to the public than the vaccinated?

It is often stated that those who choose not to vaccinate their children for reasons of conscience endanger the rest of the public, and this is the rationale behind most of the legislation to end vaccine exemptions currently being considered by federal and state legislators country-wide.  You should be aware that the nature of protection afforded by many modern vaccines – and that includes most of the vaccines recommended by the CDC for children – is not consistent with such a statement.  I have outlined below the recommended vaccines that cannot prevent transmission of disease either because they are not designed to prevent the transmission of infection (rather, they are intended to prevent disease symptoms), or because they are for non-communicable diseases.  People who have not received the vaccines mentioned below pose no higher threat to the general public than those who have, implying that discrimination against non-immunized children in a public school setting may not be warranted.
  • IPV (inactivated poliovirus vaccine) cannot prevent transmission of poliovirus. Wild poliovirus has been non-existent in the USA for at least two decades. Even if wild poliovirus were to be re-imported by travel, vaccinating for polio with IPV cannot affect the safety of public spaces.  Please note that wild poliovirus eradication is attributed to the use of a different vaccine, OPV or oral poliovirus vaccine.  Despite being capable of preventing wild poliovirus transmission, use of OPV was phased out long ago in the USA and replaced with IPV due to safety concerns.
  • Tetanus is not a contagious disease, but rather acquired from deep-puncture wounds contaminated with C. tetani spores. Vaccinating for tetanus (via the DTaP combination vaccine) cannot alter the safety of public spaces; it is intended to render personal protection only.
  • While intended to prevent the disease-causing effects of the diphtheria toxin, the diphtheria toxoid vaccine (also contained in the DTaP vaccine) is not designed to prevent colonization and transmission of C. diphtheriae. Vaccinating for diphtheria cannot alter the safety of public spaces; it is likewise intended for personal protection only.
  • The acellular pertussis (aP) vaccine (the final element of the DTaP combined vaccine), now in use in the USA, replaced the whole cell pertussis vaccine in the late 1990s, which was followed by an unprecedented resurgence of whooping cough. An experiment with deliberate pertussis infection in primates revealed that the aP vaccine is not capable of preventing colonization and transmission of B. pertussis. The FDA has issued a warning regarding this crucial finding.[1]
  • Furthermore, the 2013 meeting of the Board of Scientific Counselors at the CDC revealed additional alarming data that pertussis variants (PRN-negative strains) currently circulating in the USA acquired a selective advantage to infect those who are up-to-date for their DTaP boosters, meaning that people who are up-to-date are more likely to be infected, and thus contagious, than people who are not vaccinated.
  • Among numerous types of H. influenzae, the Hib vaccine covers only type b. Despite its sole intention to reduce symptomatic and asymptomatic (disease-less) Hib carriage, the introduction of the Hib vaccine has inadvertently shifted strain dominance towards other types of H. influenzae (types a through f).These types have been causing invasive disease of high severity and increasing incidence in adults in the era of Hib vaccination of children.  The general population is more vulnerable to the invasive disease now than it was prior to the start of the Hib vaccination campaign.  Discriminating against children who are not vaccinated for Hib does not make any scientific sense in the era of non-type b H. influenzae disease.
  • Hepatitis B is a blood-borne virus. It does not spread in a community setting, especially among children who are unlikely to engage in high-risk behaviors, such as needle sharing or sex. Vaccinating children for hepatitis B cannot significantly alter the safety of public spaces.  Further, school admission is not prohibited for children who are chronic hepatitis B carriers.  To prohibit school admission for those who are simply unvaccinated – and do not even carry hepatitis B – would constitute unreasonable and illogical discrimination.
In summary, a person who is not vaccinated with IPV, DTaP, HepB, and Hib vaccines due to reasons of conscience poses no extra danger to the public than a person who is.  No discrimination is warranted.
Well, that would appear to settle that. No doubt the vaccine enthusiasts will soon be rushing to apologize to Jenny McCarthy for incorrectly charging her with murder. That being said, I note that she didn't say anything about the measles vaccine, which presumably does help reduce the incidence of the disease - although not as much as travel and immigration bans would.

My personal opinion is that the entire debate is a charade. If people actually cared about public health, they would not permit any immigration from the third world. As long as mass migration is permitted, relying on vaccines to combat imported diseases will be a losing battle. So, unless and until the mass migrations are stopped, don't even think about trying to force vaccines on anyone who doesn't want them for them or their children.

Labels:

114 Comments:

Blogger Adm Trell July 11, 2017 8:24 AM  

Your last paragraph nails it. This is a tool we should use more often to point out the insanity of importing the 3rd world... take the "fear of disease" emotional argument that Big Pharma uses to push vaccines, and utilize it as a weapon against the open-boarders crowd.

Anonymous Rocklea July 11, 2017 8:24 AM  

"use of OPV was phased out long ago in the USA and replaced with IPV due to safety concerns."

I wonder if that is related to SV40.

And it looks like the vaccines are training the bugs to be smarter, whoda thunk it. I wonder if this nice piece of dialectic will beat the MSM Big Pharma "safe and effective" always and forever rhetoric? Or is that our job?

Blogger exfarmkid July 11, 2017 8:25 AM  

If people actually cared about public health, they would not permit any immigration from the third world. As long as mass migration is permitted, relying on vaccines to combat imported diseases will be a losing battle.

I suppose we could hold each of them down as they arrive and give them their injections. THEN send them back. You're welcome, Third World!

Anonymous Looking Glass July 11, 2017 8:25 AM  

Vaccines are just a messy issue in general, mostly because of the Fear aspect to the entire topic. (Also, Boomerism "vaccines are GREAT!".)

It really seems like most vaccine approaches can work to eradicate a virus, but keeping the "herd" safe is more a function of preventing reintroduction.

While vaccines don't cause Autism (they just make it noticeable earlier/confirm it), there's still something wrong with the MMR & Chicken Pox vaccines. But that's an area of medicine that requires some really technical deep-dives that no one is willing to do.

Anonymous BBGKB July 11, 2017 8:29 AM  

I am glad I no longer seem like a kook for making the case for diseases & borders, but I will have to wait until people start dying to say "I told you so" about not wanting the HIV travel ban removed, with drug resistaint HIV coming into the US via African refusegees last year.

Hepatitis B is a blood-borne virus. It does not spread in a community setting, especially among children who are unlikely to engage in high-risk behaviors, such as needle sharing or sex.

Perhaps they should only give Hep B shots to kids at Comet Pizza & kids near Mexicans/blacks.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan July 11, 2017 8:30 AM  

Speaking of polio, back in the early 70s I got my mandated shot in grade school. 45 days later I came down with polio for 4 days, 45 days after recovering I got it again for 4 days.

Anonymous CS July 11, 2017 8:31 AM  

Actually, if you read further down, she does address the measles vaccine, but seems to indicate the vaccine produces a greater public health risk than the virus itself. According to what she says, the vaccine does not give immunity to about 5% of those who receive it and for those who do get immunity from it, it is not the life-long immunity that you get when after you recover from actually getting the measles. This has resulted in more adults getting measles, once their immunization is no longer effective and more children under 1 year old are getting it, as their mothers are not able to pass along their immunity (as they did when they got the measles themselves instead of being immunized). Before immunization most people who got the measles got it between ages 1 and 15, which happens to be the safest time to get it. Now it is the opposite and poses a much greater threat to those who get it.

Anonymous grey enlightenment July 11, 2017 8:33 AM  

I suppose we could hold each of them down as they arrive and give them their injections. THEN send them back. You're welcome, Third World!



inject with a bullet and send back the dead body. that would end immigration real quick

Blogger Mr.MantraMan July 11, 2017 8:34 AM  

Public sanitation is White Oppression.

Anonymous BBGKB July 11, 2017 8:57 AM  

Public sanitation is White Oppression

Shitlib mom won't let white son accept school perfect attendance record because it's not fair to those who evolved the opposite direction of whites & east Asians. US newspapers used to post pictures of all the kids who went 1-12 with perfect attendance but stopped because it was almost entirely white boys with a few Asians & girls, but never a single non Asian minority.

http://www.bornattherighttime.com/

Blogger Duh-ave July 11, 2017 9:18 AM  

How can an unvaccinated person infect a vaccinated person? Immune is immune.

Duh ave

Blogger Matt July 11, 2017 9:19 AM  

I dont understand these people. If a vaccine works, how would an unvunvaccinated, infected person pose a risk to the vaccinated?

Blogger Matt July 11, 2017 9:19 AM  

@Duh-ave ddaaaaaamn yoooooyuuu

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother July 11, 2017 9:21 AM  

MUH HERD IMMUNITY

Anonymous Red-headed Step-child July 11, 2017 9:24 AM  

Herd immunity of course. Your vaccine only works if I'm also vaccinated.

Cuz science.

Anonymous Jed Ekert July 11, 2017 9:28 AM  

"As long as mass migration is permitted, relying on vaccines to combat imported diseases will be a losing battle."

Exactly. The same can be said of our ridiculous security theater at US airports. Immigration restriction plus sending them all back will shore up the safety of domestic air travel.

Blogger August July 11, 2017 9:28 AM  

She did mention measles further down. And, if you scroll down and watch her lecture, it is dominantly about measles. I remember it from when the measles outbreak at Disney occurred.


Blogger Midnight Avenue J July 11, 2017 9:32 AM  

Yeah, herd immunity. I've heard this before, here and elsewhere.

Tried to point out why measles broke in CA Disney due to third worlders. Of course immigration is not at fault! It's because I didn't get my kids vaccinated! I don't live anywhere near CA and never been there, but that's the respons, so...

I did get the kids vaccinated, but on a different schedule. I don't t place my full faith in vaccine medicine but I recognize it has potential benefits. It's just not the miracle shield people think it is. You should still minimize disease vectors and practice good hygiene as your first lines of defense.

Anonymous Napoleon 12pdr July 11, 2017 9:34 AM  

Rhetorical Meme: People who support immigration from the Third World want your kids to get sick and die.

Blogger Duke Norfolk July 11, 2017 9:39 AM  

Of course certain people will find some reason to discredit this particular Haaavaahd professor, when normally that's an impeccable and unimpeachable credential when it fits their agenda. It's so tiresome.

Blogger Duke Norfolk July 11, 2017 9:42 AM  

And then there's "muh consensus science.

Anonymous Rocklea July 11, 2017 9:42 AM  

Actually, 'MUH HERD IMMUNITY' in reverse;

" the 2013 meeting of the Board of Scientific Counselors at the CDC revealed additional alarming data that pertussis variants (PRN-negative strains) currently circulating in the USA acquired a selective advantage to infect those who are up-to-date for their DTaP boosters, meaning that people who are up-to-date are more likely to be infected, and thus contagious, than people who are not vaccinated."

Anonymous andon July 11, 2017 9:42 AM  

If people actually cared about public health, they would not permit any immigration from the third world.

the people care, the govt doesnt. same thing for terrorism

Anonymous BBGKB July 11, 2017 9:49 AM  

If people actually cared about public health, they would not permit any immigration from the third world

Its actually worse than that, if they cared about public health they would stop sending food & medicine to the 3rd world in exchange for 3rdworlders + diseases Whitey's meds can't cure. Its bad enough 3rdworlders think they are smarter than the doctors who give them free meds & end up selling the pill they should have taken on the black market promoting drug resistance, but the Clinton's sent watered down AIDS drugs to Africa creating drug resistant AIDS http://dailycaller.com/2016/09/19/exclusive-clinton-foundation-aids-program-distributed-watered-down-drugs-to-third-world-countries/

Anonymous andon July 11, 2017 9:49 AM  

@ BBKB

100% Attendance Awards demonise the weakest

reminds me of the illegal aliens who complain about whites being lucky enough to be born in white countries by "accident of birth"

Blogger Midnight Avenue J July 11, 2017 10:00 AM  

The complaints that she is not affiliated with Harvard at present, never authored papers according to PubMed searches, isn't Harvard trained, yada, are rolling in.

Has anything she said been proven false? Vaccines are a hedge against public threat. If a disease poses no threat...

Blogger Duke Norfolk July 11, 2017 10:00 AM  

One of the biggest, if not THE biggest, social phenomenon at play in this area is that most (almost all) people would rather risk an adverse reaction from vaccination of their child and be with the herd than take the very small risk of a bad outcome of not vaccinating and being socially scorned. They can rationalize away the tragedy of their child's death/injury more easily than they can live with the scorn of their community.

It's very much like the issue of helicopter parenting, IMO. Parents are more worried about the social consequences of something happening to their child if they don't wrap them in a bubble than they are of the long term consequences of their child not learning to deal with the world.

And that's in stark contrast to the supposed prevailing attitude that we must “do it for the children.”

Blogger Duke Norfolk July 11, 2017 10:06 AM  

Midnight Avenue J wrote:The complaints that she is not affiliated with Harvard at present, never authored papers according to PubMed searches, isn't Harvard trained, yada, are rolling in.

Quite predictable, of course. Only a very few at the margin will be convinced by this and other evidence to take different action. All the others are looking nervously around them at the herd for cues.

Of course you can't expect much else from a very large portion of the population who understandably can't process all this data/info. We've been betrayed by our intellectual elite who are hopelessly corrupted (and also ruled by the social pressure) and even downright evil, in many cases.

Anonymous Rocklea July 11, 2017 10:13 AM  

In Australia we see clusters of people not vaccinating. They are targeted with PR. Those not up to date with childhood vaccine schedules also have Family Tax benefit B withheld. It's a middle class welfare entitlement that all families with kids receive. The money or the gun.

Anonymous andon July 11, 2017 10:17 AM  

i think not vaccinating will also be used an excuse for all the "migrants" streaming into your country. probably they will get waivers because they're special

Blogger dc.sunsets July 11, 2017 10:23 AM  

@ Adm Trell, I concur.

TB, TB, TB. Watching those in "Refugee" agencies (.gov and ostensibly NGO) allow those harboring active TB into the USA is an outrage. Each person in that food chain should be literally shot.

Public Health is a sick joke today.

Anonymous Let's go to the bathhouse! July 11, 2017 10:31 AM  

If you're not having gay sex or doing IV drugs, your risk of contracting AIDS is minuscule. Moar buttsex!

Blogger dc.sunsets July 11, 2017 10:32 AM  

Excess trust. Look at all the layers of trust in the vaccine food chain.
-trust in the honesty of those making & selling them.
-trust doctors know the science behind vaccines (hint: ha,ha,ha,ha...)
-trust politicians are wisely following the honest and well-informed experts.
-trust the talking heads actually investigated anything at all before acting as industry sock puppets with the Marketing Manager's arm stuffed up their asses, working their mouths by hand.

Two (2) classes in immunology in the 1980's puts me two classes ahead of 99.8% of physicians in knowledge of this subject, and essentially all but a rounding error off zero of the 0.2% who know more than me are fully captured by the vaccine industry.

Blogger dc.sunsets July 11, 2017 10:38 AM  

Vaccines only affect humoral immunity, not cell-mediated immunity. This always was the dirty little secret of the industry (well, that plus all the horrible crap that ends up in the injection bottle from the sausage-making you'd-puke-if-you-knew during manufacturing.)

In coming decades Chicken Pox will sweep adults in the USA as the very temporary vaccine wears off and people fail to boost what would have been lifetime immunity (from actually getting the disease as kids.)

Anonymous BBGKB July 11, 2017 10:49 AM  

TB, TB, TB. Watching those in "Refugee" agencies

Drug resistant TB. The TB white nations eradicated could be cured with 6 months and drugs that cost less than a weekend trip to the beach. Now Drug resistant TB takes 18+ months and the drugs alone for each cost between $250,000 for literate/compliant to over $1.5million each.

If you're not having gay sex or doing IV drugs, your risk of contracting AIDS is minuscule. Moar buttsex!

That's what you think but some (((pharmaceutical companies))) are paying blacks to lie when they donate blood plasma for cash. And (((you know who))) keeps selling diseased bodies that shouldn't be sold that make their way into bone grafts!!!

http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/health/bodysnatcher-facing-ultimate-irony-death-bone-cancer-article-1.1304216

Anonymous Make gay frisbee an Olympic sport July 11, 2017 11:00 AM  

BBGKB wrote:
That's what you think but some (((pharmaceutical companies))) are paying blacks to lie when they donate blood plasma for cash. And (((you know who))) keeps selling diseased bodies that shouldn't be sold that make their way into bone grafts!!!

http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/health/bodysnatcher-facing-ultimate-irony-death-bone-cancer-article-1.1304216


Maybe Islam has a point when they toss gays off buildings.

Anonymous Jack Amok July 11, 2017 11:04 AM  

The arrogant stupidity of people in this crony industry. They insist on bundling vaccines together like DTaP to where it's very difficult to get individual vaccines. This is a problem for those of us who think for ourselves. I think a Tetanus shot is important for anyone active in the outdoors, yet now we discover the bit about DTaP making you more succeptible to PRN-negative strains of pertussis. So these idiots are making it impossible to get a Tetanus shot without increasing your odds of getting whooping cough.

Because why? Because #FakeExperts think they know better.

#FakeExperts. #FakeHealth.

Anonymous BBGKB July 11, 2017 11:05 AM  

Maybe Islam has a point when they toss gays off buildings.

Right now being black is a higher risk factor of AIDS than being gay. White guys can afford condoms.
https://www.cdc.gov/nchhstp/newsroom/docs/factsheets/cdc-hiv-aa-508.pdf

Blogger Jon D. July 11, 2017 11:12 AM  

I can't say how many times I've seen the false claims stirring people up -- rhetorically -- that the lack of vaccinating was akin to giving a soul to the devil. It never made sense and i never thought about it until now.

Blogger MDN July 11, 2017 11:24 AM  

To back up her claims about the effectiveness of the pertussis vaccine, here is a link to the CDC's own surveillance report for 2015.

https://www.cdc.gov/pertussis/downloads/pertuss-surv-report-2015.pdf

You'll notice that there were 4x as many cases of pertussis among children known to have received 3 or more doses of the vaccine than received zero. Granted, there are probably a lot more children who receive 3 doses than zero, but I think that still certainly calls into question the efficacy of the vaccine. It's not just 2015 either, all years the CDC has released this data for show the same exact trend.

Anonymous Contraceptives are a right! July 11, 2017 11:39 AM  

BBGKB wrote:Maybe Islam has a point when they toss gays off buildings.

Right now being black is a higher risk factor of AIDS than being gay. White guys can afford condoms.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchhstp/newsroom/docs/factsheets/cdc-hiv-aa-508.pdf


Down low brothers are killing the race.

Blogger GracieLou July 11, 2017 11:51 AM  

I got the smallpox vaccine a year after they stopped recommending it (as did all my Gen-x peers). For younger people who don't know, the smallpox vac starts out as a normal shot, then a black pus boil forms on the site (bright yellow pus with a charred black scab like a burnt marshmallow, I will never forget that) then falls off and leaves the kid with temporary immunity and a permanent poxy scar. Normally the scars are faint but not always. I ended up with big, raised, bright red and white zig-zag scar which has only slightly faded over time. Needless to say, I rarely go sleeveless. Also it hurts. Don't know why, scar tissue on a nerve? My arm has hurt for 45 years from a vaccine I didn't even need.

After 9/11 when they tried to start those vaccinations again (before the nurse died of one) I made up my mind. No. Way. In. Hell.

Anonymous Avalanche July 11, 2017 12:01 PM  

@42 "I got the smallpox vaccine"

I got it as a kid when they invented it (I guess?) I was a kid... When I entered the Navy in the '70s, the corpsman offered "a new scar on the other arm, or an injection into the old scar." I took the scar-on-scar...

Anonymous VFM #7916 July 11, 2017 12:09 PM  

I wish it was possible to locally source individual vaccines. There's a few I'd do. Heck, I'd even consider the MM part of MMR if it could be decoupled from the rubella vaccine.

If you want to puke, read the Rubella information in CDC's Pink Book. Once you read that it's grown in "Human diploid cells" i.e. stem cells from an aborted fetus with genetic history of mental problems, and see that the vaccine contains blood proteins, and you've kept up with Prion research, and you know that the Blood-Brain Barrier doesn't stop human tissues from crossing...

You might want to rethink some of those assumptions about vaccines.

Anonymous basementhomebrewer July 11, 2017 12:26 PM  

Duke Norfolk wrote:It's very much like the issue of helicopter parenting, IMO. Parents are more worried about the social consequences of something happening to their child if they don't wrap them in a bubble than they are of the long term consequences of their child not learning to deal with the world.

Which is the direct result of the feminization of men. I was always the father's role to push a child to experience the real world. Women have always been the ones to try and protect the kids from everything. Fathers no longer stand up to their wives and there are plenty of "child safety equipment" manufacturers out there willing to take advantage of this fact.

Blogger Brad Richards July 11, 2017 12:32 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Brad Richards July 11, 2017 12:33 PM  

This article is absolutely true. It is also written in a way that people will misinterpret is as support for an anti-vaccination position. In other words, it is very misleading. Let's look at his first two examples:

Polio. Of course the vaccine does not directly prevent transmission. That's not what vaccines do. What they do is prevent someone from contracting the disease. If someone never contracts the disease, then - even if exposed - they will not transmit it further. The protection of other people is indirect.

The idea behind "herd immunity is then this: A disease cannot effectively transmit through a population unless it can infect people. To prevent a disease from spreading, you need around 95% of the population to be immune. Three doses of polio vaccine provide about 98% immunity. If you are in an area where polio is a danger, this means that no more than approximately 3% of the population can be allowed to "opt out" of the vaccination, or herd immunity will be reduced.

Tetanus. He points out that a tetanus vaccination is for "personal protection only". That's absolutely true. So are safety goggles when working with a chainsaw. Given the potential consequences, only an idiot would do without such simple-but-effective protection. His fact is true, but it is not an argument against tetanus vaccinations.

Stopping immigration would help prevent the import of diseases, but is insufficient. Unless you stop all travel to the third world, you still have a danger of diseases arriving in the bodies of the travelers.

There are reasons to not vaccinate. These are very specific, and apply to very few people. For the vast majority, not vaccinating is at best selfish and at worst downright stupid. Read about the recent rise of pertussis.

Blogger Ransom Smith July 11, 2017 12:45 PM  

Ah look. The selfish argument.
Pure rhetoric.

Muh herd immunity.

Let's not consider what we're doing. Just fall to emotion and peer pressure.

Anonymous peter July 11, 2017 12:47 PM  

"....people would rather risk an adverse reaction from vaccination of their child and be with the herd than take the very small risk of a bad outcome of not vaccinating and being socially scorned. They can rationalize away the tragedy of their child's death/injury more easily than they can live with the scorn of their community."

The vast majority of people get their children vaccinated because the vast majority of medical professionals recommend it AND it is in some cases mandated by US laws. The problem with vaccines is the bundling of the shots and having children get it all in a very short period -- our pediatrician recommend and we followed a much more spread out schedule. That's were the flexibility needs to improved. You have 5 years before they really start interacting with the population -- why do all the shots have to happen in the first 4 months ?

If an when there is a cancer vaccine I will be in that line -- but not first just in case there some unknown effect that causes the end of humanity ie I am legend story line...






Anonymous Ominous Cowherd July 11, 2017 12:49 PM  

Brad Richards wrote:The idea behind "herd immunity is then this: ...

If you don't want to risk getting the disease, risk getting the vaccination. Don't expect others to get immunized for you.

Blogger CM July 11, 2017 1:04 PM  

ot, but does anyone have a link to the anchor complaining that they can't cover anything else unless Trump tweets it?

It was around the whole Mika/Joe stuff and I thought it was an interview with Tucker Carlson.

Anonymous basementhomebrewer July 11, 2017 1:23 PM  

Ominous Cowherd wrote:Brad Richards wrote:The idea behind "herd immunity is then this: ...

If you don't want to risk getting the disease, risk getting the vaccination. Don't expect others to get immunized for you.


That is what it boils down to. "Herd immunity" is most useful as a tool for globalists to try and convince the public that importing diseased 3rd worlders isn't a problem.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash July 11, 2017 1:35 PM  

Brad Richards wrote:Tetanus. He points out that a tetanus vaccination is for "personal protection only". That's absolutely true. So are safety goggles when working with a chainsaw. Given the potential consequences, only an idiot would do without such simple-but-effective protection. His fact is true, but it is not an argument against tetanus vaccinations.
It is an argument against requiring tetanus vaccine, you dolt. Will you be arrested if you use a chainsaw without goggles?

Brad Richards wrote:Polio. Of course the vaccine does not directly prevent transmission. That's not what vaccines do. What they do is prevent someone from contracting the disease. If someone never contracts the disease, then - even if exposed - they will not transmit it further. The protection of other people is indirect.
Polio is spread through fecal contamination. The incidence is incredibly low in any country with proper sanitation, to the point that "herd immunity" is meaningless.

Back in the 1980's the great majority of polio cases in the US were parents who caught it from their recently vaccinated infants. That's why OPV was discontinued.

Brad Richards wrote:For the vast majority, not vaccinating is at best selfish and at worst downright stupid. Read about the recent rise of pertussis.

Yeah, maybe you should read about the recent rise in pertussis.
https://www.cdc.gov/pertussis/downloads/pertuss-surv-report-2015.pdf

And it's all very scientific and air tight and certain until you watch your child go in to convulsions after getting a Pertussis vaccination, with brain damage that lingers even now, 32 years later.

And then you find out that the 7-hour convulsion was reported to the CDC as a "mild" reaction.

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener July 11, 2017 1:36 PM  

The basic problem with vaccines is that most of the medical industry refuses to consider the full spectrum of risks posed by vaccines, including the critical issue of trust as dc.sunsets mentions. There are other significant risks and trust issues too, including the risk of receiving something other than the intended vaccine dosage, either accidentally or deliberately. Medical mistakes and hospital-borne infections kill hundreds of thousands each year in the US alone.

Blogger Silly but True July 11, 2017 1:39 PM  

Per CDC's own data: Stay the hell away from single-shot MMRV and go with two-dose MMR version. The risks of any adverse effect is half. Of course single-dose is cheaper and easier (and so is the preference of providers or insurance who could give a flying flip about the health of any particular kid).

The odd issues:
Chronic joint pain - very rare, but not nonexistent
ITP reactions - essentially unlucky statistic bleeds out to death. Best CDC reports is "not usually life-threatening." Concerned parents may not that "not usually" and "never" have different meanings.
Measles Encephalitis - this is likely the cause for the "autism" charge. Can happen a year or more after vaccination. It has a high death rate, but those who survived through it may have suffered permanent brain injury for which autism could have been misdiagnosis.

CDC notes just three cases of measles encephalitis occurring in vaccinated people, with one of those cases the vaccine identified as cause.

3 in 320m is relatively-speaking good odds. But again, "3 cases ever" means something different than "never."

Blogger Snidely Whiplash July 11, 2017 1:49 PM  

Silly but True wrote:CDC notes just three cases of measles encephalitis occurring in vaccinated people, with one of those cases the vaccine identified as cause.


And how many undiagnosed cases? How many were never attributed to measles because of the lack of measles symptoms?
The CDC morbidity stats are bullshit.

Blogger Brad Richards July 11, 2017 1:53 PM  

@Snidely: You're cherry picking. Yes, there was a decrease in the incidence of pertussis from 2014 to 2015. However, look at the larger picture: https://www.cdc.gov/pertussis/surv-reporting.html Pertussis rates have increased dramatically, after being near zero for decades. Why? Because of the antivax movement.

Are there individual bad reactions? Sure there are. I also had a great-uncle who refused to wear his seatbelts, because he might be trapped in his car. Both of those risks are real, and both of them are lower than the risks they eliminate. Are there individual, tragic anecdotes? Sure, but they do not change the big picture.

Anonymous Ominous Cowherd July 11, 2017 2:05 PM  

Brad Richards wrote:Pertussis rates have increased dramatically, after being near zero for decades. Why?

From the OP: ``... pertussis variants (PRN-negative strains) currently circulating in the USA acquired a selective advantage to infect those who are up-to-date for their DTaP boosters, meaning that people who are up-to-date are more likely to be infected, and thus contagious, than people who are not vaccinated.''

Why do you imagine you are qualified to hold an opinion on this topic?

Blogger MDN July 11, 2017 2:08 PM  

@57 Brad Richards

Its not as simple as just blaming 'anti-vaxxers' for the rise in pertussis seen recently. See the attached slide deck from the H&HS, specifically slides 10,11, and 15

https://www.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/nvpo/nvac/meetings/pastmeetings/2012/clark_and_messonnier_062512.pdf

DTAP coverage among young children held constant from 2004 through 2010 and teenage coverage with tdap increased from 10% to nearly 70% from 2006 to 2010. Yet if you look at the chart on slide 15, you'll notice that the pertussis incidence for both of those groups increased after 2005 steadily until 2010.

There is clearly more going on to the rise in pertussis than just muh antivax movement.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash July 11, 2017 2:17 PM  

Brad Richards wrote:Pertussis rates have increased dramatically, after being near zero for decades. Why? Because of the antivax movement.


So what? Pertussis is a harmless respiratory infection. I've had pertussis. My kids have had pertussis. My grandkids have had pertussis, including a 1-year-old.
And relating my own experience is NOT "cherry picking", you dumbass.

Blogger phunktor July 11, 2017 2:18 PM  

This is a fine piece of pseudo-dialectic.

Once infected the non immunized is no more risk to his neighbor than his immunized brother would have been HAD HE SOMEHOW BECOME INFECTED.

Proves only that none of us is free of confirmation bias. Go now and sin no more.

Anonymous Ominous Cowherd July 11, 2017 2:23 PM  

phunktor wrote:Once infected the non immunized is no more risk to his neighbor than his immunized brother would have been HAD HE SOMEHOW BECOME INFECTED.

If you think that vaccination is a good idea, get the vaccination for yourself. Don't expect others to get vaccinated for you.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash July 11, 2017 2:23 PM  

phunktor wrote:Proves only that none of us is free of confirmation bias. Go now and sin no more.
Super genius is superior to us peons.
Go now an get bent.

Anonymous LurkingPuppy July 11, 2017 2:32 PM  

Brad Richards wrote:Polio. Of course the vaccine does not directly prevent transmission. That's not what vaccines do. What they do is prevent someone from contracting the disease.
The study she cited showed that children who had been vaccinated were more likely to become infected with polio when exposed to it.

Brad Richards wrote:Tetanus. He points out that a tetanus vaccination is for "personal protection only". That's absolutely true. … His fact is true, but it is not an argument against tetanus vaccinations.
That open letter was written by a woman, not a man. Why do you hate crediting women for their accomplishments?

And, as Snidely said, it is an argument against requiring vaccinations against tetanus toxoid.

Brad Richards wrote:Stopping immigration would help prevent the import of diseases, but is insufficient. Unless you stop all travel to the third world, you still have a danger of diseases arriving in the bodies of the travelers.
We don't have to stop all travel to the third world; we only have to stop all travel from the third world. You still have to go back.

Blogger dc.sunsets July 11, 2017 2:37 PM  

We live in a time where everything is sold with only the benefits (often assumed via utilitarianism's endemic circular reasoning) discussed, while glossing over if not outright cover-up of the potential (or well-known) risks/costs.

This is the Age of Lies

Anonymous dr kill July 11, 2017 2:44 PM  

There's something wrong with most of you people. I'm talking about the anti-vaxxers. I really don't give a shit if you jab your kids or not. But bragging about your ignorance is astounding. Mine got jabbed, mine are all fine, including the HPV. Now I know all you good, God-fearing Xtians are all butthurt about your little Susie not needing it because she's not going to have sex until she's married. Very nice, but what about her new husband? Damn, you people are stupid. I'm with you on many, many issues, but there is really no doubt about this one.

Anonymous Ominous Cowherd July 11, 2017 3:00 PM  

dr kill wrote:... there is really no doubt about this one.

Most people are idiots. Idiots are often certain.

Anonymous dr kill July 11, 2017 3:07 PM  

Cows are vaccinated too. Brucellosis, TB, the Clostridial diseases. Damn, I'm glad not to be one of your kids.

Anonymous BBGKB July 11, 2017 3:43 PM  

And how many undiagnosed cases? How many were never attributed to measles because of the lack of measles symptoms? The CDC morbidity stats are bullshit.

Affirmative action hires at the CDC misplaced anthrax and smallpox, if they can do that what can they do with just numbers on paper? http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-cdc-mistakes-20140711-story.html

HPV..Very nice, but what about her new husband?

The risk benefits for HPV are even worse for men than women. If it protected against all strains of HPV it would be worth it for girls, but it doesnt.

Blogger Cail Corishev July 11, 2017 3:47 PM  

Cows are vaccinated too.

Sigh. One-third of beef cow/calf operations do no vaccinations at all. The other 2/3 do some, not necessarily all.

As of 2010, all 50 US states are certified brucellosis-free. This was achieved through sanitary methods and culling infected animals, not vaccines. That means if you're in one of those 50 states (not the other 7), it would be rather stupid to vaccinate your animals for it, since that could only increase your risk from "zero" to "some." It would also increase your personal risk, since humans can get it from contact with the vaccine.

Brucellosis is a funny example, by the way, because North America was brucellosis-free until Europeans brought their infected immigrant cows, which passed it to the innocent native bison and elk. Now the cows are clean, but the wild animals still suffer from outbreaks. Sounds familiar.

Any other claims you'd like to pull out of your ass, doc?

Blogger Snidely Whiplash July 11, 2017 3:50 PM  

dr kill wrote:Cows are vaccinated too. Brucellosis, TB, the Clostridial diseases. Damn, I'm glad not to be one of your kids.
Me too.
Glad to see you identify with cows. It's certainly appropriate.
dr kill wrote:Mine got jabbed, mine are all fine, including the HPV.
Mine mostly didn't get vaccinated. They're all fine, except the two that did. Did you see the convulsions thing up there? I hope you never have to live through that hell. No, no, I really hope you do. It might teach you something, you arrogant, stupid little prick.
And strangely enough, none of my adult children have HPV, male or female.

I'm glad your little whore has had the HPV vaccine though. That'll definitely slow the spread of the disease.

Blogger Ransom Smith July 11, 2017 3:53 PM  

The HPV vaccine that settled for millions in the US with another suit in Japan? That HPV?

How odd that a marvelous vaccine would have the public upset when their children had adverse effects.

Hmm. Most perplexing.

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey July 11, 2017 4:01 PM  

1. Which is more vulnerable to malware, macOS? Or Windows? Why?

2. How many cases of meningitis, epiglottis, and other invasive disease due to H. influenzae in general (not just type B) were there in the US in, say, 1980 (pre-Hib)? How many deaths? How many last year? Why?

3. "Tetanus is not a contagious disease"

Of course not. Which is why no one makes an argument for mandatory tetanus vaccination on a free rider/ positive externality basis. Of course, as the next sentence states, "Vaccinating for tetanus (via the DTaP combination vaccine)..."

News flash: pertussis is a contagious disease, and one that there's an effective vaccine for. We decided to stop using the effective vaccine, and change to one that has fewer side effects, but is markedly less effective. What's it gonna be, people? Combination vaccines = fewer shots, but also fewer choices about which ones to decline. Better tolerated sometimes = less effective. This is the real world--there ain't no perfect answer. No free lunch, as the lolbertarians say.

4. "IPV (inactivated poliovirus vaccine) cannot prevent transmission of poliovirus" This is an idiotic statement. No vaccine "prevents" the transmission of an infectious disease. In diseases transmitted directly human to human, with no vector or animal reservoir, vaccines make transmission much less efficient. As would IPV in the event of reintroduction of wild type polio into the US. This is, of course, the reason for continuing to immunize against polio (but not, for example smallpox). See Mac vs. Windows.

IPV is used instead of the live attenuated vaccine because of the (rather obvious) risk/ benefit tradeoff. Live vaccine is more effective, but all enteroviruses, including the attenuated strain of the polio virus, have a small but non-zero risk of causing serious neurological syndromes. (Just do a search for
"acute flaccid myelitis" or for "enterovirus C105," for example). It would not make sense to continue giving the live vaccine when an inactivated alternative is available, once initial eradication has been achieved.

"If people actually cared about public health, they would not permit any immigration from the third world. As long as mass migration is permitted, relying on vaccines to combat imported diseases will be a losing battle."

Well, yeah. Tough to argue with that one. Just another variant of anarcho-tyranny, really. Not to mention the diseases for which there is no vaccine, that had once been nearly eradicated, like TB (and now MDR TB). Even leprosy, Chagas disease...

"Free trade" can have a similar effect:
https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2012/p0314_foodborne.html
"CDC research shows outbreaks linked to imported foods increasing"

Blogger SirHamster July 11, 2017 4:36 PM  

phunktor wrote:Once infected the non immunized is no more risk to his neighbor than his immunized brother would have been HAD HE SOMEHOW BECOME INFECTED.

Midwit doesn't understand vaccination does not mean immunity to infection.

Reading words is hard:

"I have outlined below the recommended vaccines that cannot prevent transmission of disease either because they are not designed to prevent the transmission of infection (rather, they are intended to prevent disease symptoms), or because they are for non-communicable diseases."

OpenID markstoval July 11, 2017 5:04 PM  

Great news. Nice to see a little truth seep thought the propaganda.

Blogger Silly but True July 11, 2017 5:05 PM  

@Snidely: "And how many undiagnosed cases? How many were never attributed to measles because of the lack of measles symptoms?"

This is exactly the valid concern being hidden and mocked by the rabid vaxxers.

Parents aren't medical practitioners. Also especially note that the medical definition of "autism" has been greatly expanded in recent years. So people can be excused for not having professional knowledge of various brain disorders.

For several generations now, during refinement of the MMR (multiple variant mixes) and the MMRV vaccines, all parents knew is that they had perfectly happy, healthy kids that were brain damaged or given new and permanent developmental disorders by the vaccines themselves. And the medical community's reaction was "you're crazy. Nothing is wrong. And further if you don't shut up and subject new kids to those damages, we'll make your life absolutely miserable or even threaten to take them away from you."

Further, the vaccine regime is such that they are given at ages too young to have a complete benchmark of their normal brain development. So detection is already difficult much less detecting as connected to a specific event like a vaccine, and further as being disconnected from that event by more than a year.

So yeah, it's worth it for parents to know those real risks.

OpenID markstoval July 11, 2017 5:17 PM  

Weird Twitter action.

I went to Tweet the title of this article and a link to it. I have done this hundreds of times (no really, hundreds over the years)

Twitter said my post "looked automated" and I could not post it. I then posted a simple comment and it was ok. They don't want this blog mentioned on Twitter! F'ing cowards.

Blogger August July 11, 2017 5:41 PM  

Look, I promise if the three or four of you who are demonstrating really bad reading comprehension will just watch her lecture really really carefully, you can find something to make fun of her about.

It's isn't her accent. It isn't a mistake with regard to vaccines. So, you have to listen really carefully and risk enlightenment. But you can always double down. With ammunition.

Anonymous rtp July 11, 2017 6:03 PM  

"To minimize the problem of false positive laboratory results, it is important to restrict case investigation and laboratory tests to patients most likely to have measles (i.e., those who meet the clinical case definition, especially if they have risk factors for measles, such as being unvaccinated,[...]"

www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/surv-manual/chpt07-measles.html

Let's make this clear.

The measles vaccine does not work. It never worked.

No vaccines in history has ever worked for anybody.

That is one quote from one health agency for one disease but there are plenty more.

Doctors typically refuse to diagnose the condition if the patient is vaccinated. So it appears as though the vaccine has been followed by a reduction in the disease but in reality, all that has happened is that doctors will increase their diagnoses of other similar conditions.

The diseases have been renamed not reduced. Differentially diagnosed to be precise.

And there is no better illustration of this than when you take the time to look at total rates of disease caused paralysis after the polio vaccine.

If the disease had fallen as advertised (and polio been the scourge we have been led to believe) then clearly total rates of paralysis would have collapsed.

They have not collapsed.

They have increased. Yes. Increased.

Same for total rates of sterility after the mumps vaccine.

Same for total rates of congenital defects after the rubella vaccine.

Same for total rates of respiratory hospitalizations after the pertussis/diphtheria and subsequently flu vaccines.

Same for meningitis after the Hib and then Prevenar vaccines.

And smallpox/chickenpox are now called things like monkeypox and impetigo.

Anonymous dr kill July 11, 2017 6:11 PM  

Sorry. I haven't been ignoring you, I've been vaccinating cows and calves. I'm not suggesting you should vaccinate if you are frightened by science, but don't pretend to be practitioners with 35 years of experience.

Anonymous dr kill July 11, 2017 6:13 PM  

I fully support your right to be stupid.

Anonymous rtp July 11, 2017 6:32 PM  

“2. How many cases of meningitis, epiglottis, and other invasive disease due to H. influenzae in general (not just type B) were there in the US in, say, 1980 (pre-Hib)? How many deaths? How many last year? Why?”

Nobody has ever proven Hib is responsible for meningitis, epiglottitis etc. Hib is prevalent in a huge percentage of the population with no ill effect. But deaths attributed to Hib by doctors has fallen by something like 98 per cent. Problem is that total rates of all the diseases that Hib is supposed to cause (meningitis, airway obstruction, sepsis) never actuall fell after the vaccine.

Doctors stopped blaming Hib when it happened. That is the sum total of the success of the vaccine.

3. "Tetanus:

Why don’t you find total rates of lockjaw symptoms (trismus) since the vaccine? We just don’t blame tetanus when it happens anymore.

Pertussis: “News flash: pertussis is a contagious disease, and one that there's an effective vaccine for.”

No idea what you’re trying to get at here. The pertussis vaccine is acellular which means that it does not and indeed, cannot prevent the bacteria itself. Those who are vaccinated are just as likely to spread the disease as those who are not – no more no less.

At any rate, the vaccine – like all vaccines – is completly useless. And the same holds true for the old whole cell shot too. Ever since the vaccine, rates of respiratory hospitalizations have increased. For a long while, doctors refused to diagnose pertussis in the vaccinated and would blame things like respiratory syncytial virus/bronchiolitis or croup. This still happens – many doctors will still refuse to diagnose pertussis in vaccinated patients. But many will because of their loss of faith in the vaccine.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash July 11, 2017 6:34 PM  

August wrote:It's isn't her accent. It isn't a mistake with regard to vaccines. So, you have to listen really carefully and risk enlightenment. But you can always double down. With ammunition.
Nobody here will think you more clever, more syuper speecial or smarter for the useless and frankly annoying practice of tossing hints and pretending you're smart.

Just say what you mean.

Oh, I forgot, that opens you to valid criticism.

Never mind.

Anonymous rtp July 11, 2017 6:34 PM  

Because you are a moron you don’t understand the central problem with epidemiology.

Doctor beliefs *always* manifest in the data regardless of whether those beliefs are correct or not.

“4. "IPV (inactivated poliovirus vaccine) cannot prevent transmission of poliovirus" This is an idiotic statement.

The polio vaccine is – like all vaccines – completely worthless. Along with the fact that very few doctors are willing to diagnose the condition, we have strengthened the criteria for doing so such that even those few doctors who would do so, aren’t allowed to.

Total rates of disease caused paralysis have increased.

"If people actually cared about public health, they would not permit any immigration from the third world. As long as mass migration is permitted, relying on vaccines to combat imported diseases will be a losing battle."

“Well, yeah. Tough to argue with that one. Just another variant of anarcho-tyranny, really. Not to mention the diseases for which there is no vaccine, that had once been nearly eradicated, like TB (and now MDR TB). Even leprosy, Chagas disease...”

I will argue it. I certainly don’t support large scale migration but this has nothing to do with fear of contagious disease.

Doctors and nurses spend their lives surrounded by sick people – and have done so long before vaccines and good hygiene were routinely used – and yet still enjoy(ed) perfectly normal lifespans. And of course, patients – who are already sick and presumably vulnerable – turn up to hospitals and doctor offices in their droves. How could somebody who is afraid of a perfectly healhy unvaccinated child be completely unconcerned by surrounding themselves by *actual* sick people?

It makes no sense.

None of it makes sense. The idea that God created the earth and biological systems so perfectly but then – for no apparent reason – gave us bacteria and viruses whose only purpose is to do us harm? Sorry. But that makes no sense. Nor does the idea that fiddling around with our immune systems will make us healthier because God couldn’t have foreseen that the viruses that he supposedly created to harm us would, in fact, harm us!

Going back to the days before ipads and hospitals, each thing that we call “disease” actually served a purpose. To protect us. Part of our perfect creation.

It seems to me that those who believe in germ theory/immunity must have an insanely difficult time reconciling that belief with the idea of creation/intelligent design. On the other hand, those of us who know the true medicine – German New Medicine – can easily see that creation/ID is even more clear than when you look at the rest of biology.

And we see that when IDers fumble around for feeble excuses to try and explain antibiotic resistance. Whilst most of their analysis is excellent, their excuses for abx resistance fall flat because they assume there is such a thing.

Anonymous dr kill July 11, 2017 6:37 PM  

I fully support your right to have your kids diagnosed with cervical cancer in 20 years. I really do.

Anonymous rtp July 11, 2017 6:41 PM  

"Sorry. I haven't been ignoring you, I've been vaccinating cows and calves. I'm not suggesting you should vaccinate if you are frightened by science, but don't pretend to be practitioners with 35 years of experience."

If you think that science is just a term you can proffer up to avoid making a substantive argument then you clearly have no idea what science actually is.

But if you're so proud of your vaccinating efforts vaccinate yourself.

In fact, give yourself the entire infant vaccines schedule adjusted for your body weight. If you weigh 180lb that would mean around 500 vaccines over the space of 18 months.

No adult has ever done this - because 100 per cent of people who claim vaccines are safe are disgusting liars.

It is standard practice for *all* consumer products to go through a stress test. That is how you prove something is safe.

But vaccines are never put through this and instead they rely on ridiculous studies whereby the control group is poisoned as well as the vaccine group. For example, the Gardasil control group was actually an injection of aluminum. Because the rate of severe injury was much the same in the Al group as for the vaccine group, the vaccine was deemed safe.

They would never subject this or any other vaccine to a proper test - a stress test - because they know the results would show that even with smaller doses than are currently given, there would be plenty of reactions.

But they don't care.

People are so petrified of germs that we have destroyed almost every child on the planet to protect us from them.

All for the greater good apparently.

Well this "greater good" means a tenfold increase in childhood disability rates since the widespread use of vaccines.

Our time will go down as the most evil in history because of the horrific crime we have committed against our own children.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash July 11, 2017 6:41 PM  

dr kill wrote:Sorry. I haven't been ignoring you, I've been vaccinating cows and calves. I'm not suggesting you should vaccinate if you are frightened by science, but don't pretend to be practitioners with 35 years of experience.

No one cared whether you were ignoring them or not. Honestly, not one give a ripe banana for your opinion one way or the other.
I'm not suggesting you should read up on the actual science of vaccines if you are not very bright and think that one paragraph in the one chapter in that one book for the class you took 35 years ago is definitive for all time, but don't pretend you're contributing to the conversation by re-asserting nonsense that not only has nothing to do with the topic of conversation, has never actually been proven, you know, scientifically.

BTW, tell your daughter the boys on the John C. Stennis said hi.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash July 11, 2017 6:42 PM  

dr kill wrote:I fully support your right to have your kids diagnosed with cervical cancer in 20 years. I really do.
And I fully support your right to have your daughter suddenly drop dead , or suffer paralysis or brain damage from a vaccine reaction. I really do.

Anonymous Ominous Cowherd July 11, 2017 6:51 PM  

dr kill wrote:I fully support your right to have your kids diagnosed with cervical cancer in 20 years. I really do.

You have conclusively proven you are a fool, and conclusively proven you are unqualified to hold any opinion on this subject. If you had agreed with me, I would have to re-examine my data and my conclusions.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash July 11, 2017 6:59 PM  

Those interested in a vaccinations should read the book Dr. Mary's Monkey. Lots of dishonest medical shenanigans, weird coincidences and disturbing facts about the development of the polio vaccine.

Did you know that Lee Harvey Oswald worked as a lab technician in a virology research lab, developing a polio vaccine?

The most disturbing thing in the book is the assertion that the Salk vaccine was developed in tissues from monkeys infected with viruses known to cause cancer in monkeys.

Anonymous rtp July 11, 2017 7:16 PM  

Diagnosed with cervical cancer eh dr kill?

You know that the cervical cancer vaccine isn't actually the first anti-cancer vaccine?

That "honor" goes to the Hep B vaccine - introduced in the early 1980s to prevent liver cancer.

Do you know what has happened to liver cancer rates since then dr kill?

They have tripled.

Yes. Tripled.

The vaccine - like all vaccines - is am abject failure. But can you guess what doctors did?

That's right! They blamed some other cause (hepatitis C). They weren't even very imaginative with this one. Just run through the alphabet.

When cervical cancer rates don't fall (and in fact, in the UK and Australia they have reversed their course of falling and risen since the vaccine (don't know about the US)) let me take a wild stab in the dark at what doctors will say.

"The vaccine has been a raging success at preventing these types of HPV. Alas, other types of HPV have - by sheer coincidence - risen to take their place and are now causing huge numbers of cervical cancer.

But not to worry! Our greatest medical minds are working on a vaccine for these new types of HPV and you can all get that one as well!"

And the populous will actually be stupid enough to believe it.

Staggering. The moment the word "vaccines" is mentioned most people lose half their IQ points and all their principles.

Blogger phunktor July 11, 2017 7:22 PM  

@Rocklea I was living with the MD who uncovered the link between sv40 and sspe. TPTB tried to sit on it, she finally got the story out in the NZ equivalent of the National Enquirer. Gutsy broad.

Anonymous pathfinderlight July 11, 2017 7:35 PM  

I didn't expect to read this article and find a decent argument against the concept of herd immunity. It's so unfortunate to find the level of intelligence regarding the vaccine policy debate to be lacking.

Blogger Cail Corishev July 11, 2017 7:44 PM  

but don't pretend to be practitioners with 35 years of experience.

So when you threw cow vaccinations out there as if they're universal (which is the only way they would support your point at all), you weren't just ignorant; you knew better and were counting on us not to. Noted.

When I visit my dairy-farming folks this weekend, I'll be sure to tell them "Dr. Kill" says they're afraid of science because they don't vaccinate their cows for diseases that have already been wiped out on this continent. We'll have a good chuckle over it.

Anonymous Matt July 12, 2017 12:53 AM  

"Your Biggest Risk of Measles May Be a Trip to Europe"
http://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/your-biggest-risk-measles-may-be-trip-europe-n781976

Anonymous Jack Amok July 12, 2017 1:37 AM  

BTW, tell your daughter the boys on the John C. Stennis said hi.

Most of the girls did too.

Blogger Duke Norfolk July 12, 2017 8:41 AM  

basementhomebrewer wrote:

Which is the direct result of the feminization of men.


Agreed. Reminds me of an episode of Weimerica Weekly I just listened to that touched on this, though not the main topic. Good episode though. http://www.socialmatter.net/2016/11/02/weimerica-weekly-episode-45-wombs-rent/

Excellent podcast BTW. Highly recommended.

Anonymous view July 12, 2017 8:42 AM  

Thats awesome. democrats screach about unvaccinated kids and also want open borders. Young democrats please realize that this foul bunch is morally and intelectually bankrupt before they suck u in and enslave u

Blogger Duke Norfolk July 12, 2017 9:08 AM  

Great example here of the pure rhetoric (and pseudo-dialectic too) that is used against those who would dare to question the safety of vaccines in any manner. Very effective stuff, no doubt. Well proven in this area.

As soon as a well-meaning parent dares to ask a good question they are bombarded with emotional rants that are meant to send them running back to their proper place. And it works - in a huge way. Though maybe just a little less each year.

Blogger August July 12, 2017 10:44 AM  

Snidely,

I did say what I mean. I wanted the very idiots you are arguing with to go watch the damn lecture. They seem like the sort who would do it if they thought it meant they could discredit her.

The overall probability that they will change their minds is still dismally low, but exposure to the lecture increases that probability slightly.

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey July 12, 2017 12:21 PM  

rtpJuly 11, 2017 6:32 PM
“2. How many cases of meningitis, epiglottis, and other invasive disease due to H. influenzae in general (not just type B) were there in the US in, say, 1980 (pre-Hib)? How many deaths? How many last year? Why?”

"Nobody has ever proven Hib is responsible for meningitis"

Oy vey. So cerebrospinal fluid is not normally sterile, but is typically colonized with multiple strains of bacteria? Who knew?

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey July 12, 2017 12:27 PM  

Also, you might want to dial down on the ignorance and emotional incontinence, an actually look up the answers to the questions that I posed. What explanation do you propose for the near-disappearance of epiglottis as a pediatric disease, if not the Hib vaccine, hmm?

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey July 12, 2017 12:48 PM  

@rtp
"No idea what you’re trying to get at here"

A feeling that you should be very used to by now. Hardly my fault. I'll take pity on you, though-- I was referring to the previous vaccine, of course. Not the acellular one.

"Problem is that total rates of all the diseases that Hib is supposed to cause (meningitis, airway obstruction, sepsis) never actuall fell after the vaccine."

Your pitiful ignorance is showing again, I'm afraid. This statement is clearly false with respect to meningitis, and ludicrously so with respect to epiglottis. I could provide you with links, but you would likely benefit more from familiarizing yourself with the concept of "empirical evidence" on your own (if you're capable of doing so), without my holding your hand.

I will be kind enough to suggest search terms for you. Try "incidence bacterial meningitis United States" and "incidence pediatric epiglottis" or "epidemiology pediatric epiglottitis."

You're welcome.

"At any rate, the vaccine – like all vaccines – is completly useless."

Which is why smallpox is still endemic today. Uh huh.

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey July 12, 2017 12:58 PM  

@Ominous Cowherd

"Brad Richards wrote:Pertussis rates have increased dramatically, after being near zero for decades. Why?

From the OP: ``... pertussis variants (PRN-negative strains) currently circulating in the USA acquired a selective advantage to infect those who are up-to-date for their DTaP boosters, meaning that people who are up-to-date are more likely to be infected, and thus contagious, than people who are not vaccinated.'' "

No. Nice try, but it's due to the replacement of an effective vaccine with an ineffective one.

Why do you imagine you are qualified to hold an opinion on this topic?

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey July 12, 2017 1:32 PM  

@rtp

"I will argue it. I certainly don’t support large scale migration but this has nothing to do with fear of contagious disease."

Following the classic advice to lawyers, hmm? "Just argue."

Just out of curiosity, is it tuberculosis in general of which you so irrationally deny the existence? Or just the MDR variant? Do you believe in Hepatitis A? Foodborne disease in general? I just want to get a clearer picture of the exact parameters of your delusion. It's kind of an interesting case, actually.

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey July 12, 2017 1:49 PM  

BBGKB

"If people actually cared about public health, they would not permit any immigration from the third world

Its actually worse than that, if they cared about public health they would stop sending food & medicine to the 3rd world in exchange for 3rdworlders + diseases Whitey's meds can't cure."

Don't feed the bears.

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey July 12, 2017 1:56 PM  

@Matt

"If a vaccine works, how would an unvunvaccinated, infected person pose a risk to the vaccinated?"

Muh binary thinking. Because the only possibilities are "100% effective" and "0% effective," of course. You do realize that there's an entire discipline called "epidemiology," don't you?

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey July 12, 2017 2:46 PM  

@dc.sunsets

"Vaccines only affect humoral immunity, not cell-mediated immunity."

The trust point in your earlier post is a good one, but you're clearly wrong about vaccines and cell-mediated immunity.

The best example of this is probably the shingles vaccine. Humoral immunity may be important in preventing reinfection with varicella, but plays absolutely zero role in preventing shingles (reactivation of varicella within the distribution of a single nerve). This is clear mechanistically (the virus stays within the nerve during this process, and never makes it to the bloodstream) and experimentally (risk for shingles correlates with low CMI - both general and varicella-specific, and not with low humoral immunity). Yet the shingles vaccine works, both clinically, and in laboratory studies of varicella-specific CMI. Actually, humoral immunity is not of critical importance with respect to varicella generally--kids with hypogammaglobulinemia are not at increased risk of complications from varicella.

Part of the issue may well be that CMI is considerably more difficult (and expensive) to measure than humoral immunity, so it was studied less as a measure of vaccine efficacy. But even way back in the Dark Ages, when you took immunology, it could be done. For example:

http://www.jimmunol.org/content/142/2/636.short?related-urls=yesl142/2/636
"T lymphocyte cytotoxicity with natural varicella-zoster virus infection and after immunization with live attenuated varicella vaccine."
P S Diaz, S Smith, E Hunter and A M Arvin
J Immunol January 15, 1989, 142 (2) 636-641
"Varicella-zoster virus (VZV) specific cytotoxicity was investigated during acute primary VZV infection, in naturally immune subjects and after vaccination with the live attenuated varicella vaccine by using T cell cultures (TCC) generated by stimulating PBMC with VZV Ag and autologous VZV-superinfected lymphoblastoid cell lines as targets...
Immunization with live attenuated varicella vaccine induced VZV-specific, memory CTL responses comparable to those of naturally immune subjects."

Just do a search for some combination of "varicella zoster," "cell mediated immunity," and "vaccine." You'll turn up plenty more.

As a side note, when it comes to vaccines for bacterial diseases, humoral immunity is what matters (of course).

Anonymous rtp July 12, 2017 6:12 PM  

“Muh binary thinking. Because the only possibilities are "100% effective" and "0% effective," of course. You do realize that there's an entire discipline called "epidemiology," don't you?”

Vaccines are the only product in the world where their failure is deemed sufficient cause to force more people to get it. And epidemiology is more a “self-fulfiling prophecy” than a “discipline”. Doctors typically refuse to diagnose the condition if the patient is vaccinated. That is why there is supposed to be a “double” in “random double blind trial”. But real world data is not blinded this way so it is all invalid.

That is the fundamental flaw of epidemiology. Doctor beliefs manifest in the data regardless of whether their beliefs are correct. That is why the only valid data is where their beliefs are irrelevant. For example, looking at total rates of disease caused paralysis since the polio vaccine as opposed to polio diagnoses. But it isn’t just for vaccines. This affects things like the link between smoking and lung cancer. But doctors (and epidemiologists) today are all abject imbeciles. You could literally ask 1000 of them and not a single one of them would be able to explain what the point of blinding the researchers/doctors in studies is for. They know they should do it, but they have no idea why. Doctor preciousness is matched only by their supreme ignorance.

“A feeling that you should be very used to by now. Hardly my fault. I'll take pity on you, though-- I was referring to the previous vaccine, of course. Not the acellular one.”

I got that, but it didn’t seem to address the point and demonstrate any understanding of the fact that the current vaccine does not and *cannot* provide herd immunity – even if you think it works.

“I could provide you with links, but you would likely benefit more from familiarizing yourself with the concept of "empirical evidence" on your own (if you're capable of doing so), without my holding your hand.”

That’s ok. I have Australian data here http://www9.health.gov.au/cda/source/rpt_2.cfm... (look at meningococcal disease (invasive) and pneumococcal disease (invasive)).

If you want to provide US data for total meningitis then you are welcome to do so. Why don’t you provide us with links to total healthcare spending since the widespread use of vaccines? Or total disability rates? Or total rates of chronic disease?

Then we can all see how wonderful and magical the age of vaccines has been for our children.

“and "incidence pediatric epiglottis" or "epidemiology pediatric epiglottitis."”

Doctors differentially diagnose epiglottitis as croup (amongst others). The only valid method of measuring this is to look at total respiratory related hospitalisations.

Hint: they haven’t fallen.

“You’re welcome”

No. You're welcome.


“Which is why smallpox is still endemic today. Uh huh.”

It isn’t endemic but then, it never was – such a term is meaningless because disease isn’t contagious. At any rate, smallpox definitely still exists. Here you go: https://www.google.com.au/search?q=monkeypox+photo&client=safari&rls=en&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiWnrqs7sDKAhXlLKYKHSkpC5QQsAQIGw&biw=1298&bih=869

Isn’t it amazing that monkeypox had never been found before they were supposedly on the verge of eradicating smallpox? Coincidence!

Smallpox/chickenpox are/were differentially diagnosed as monkeypox and impetigo etc. (Actually, smallpox was DDxed as severe chicken pox as well).

Anonymous rtp July 12, 2017 6:13 PM  

“Oy vey. So cerebrospinal fluid is not normally sterile, but is typically colonized with multiple strains of bacteria? Who knew?”

Bacteria in CSF is neither necessary nor sufficient to prove someone has meningitis. Or even to prove they are sick. In fact, your position makes no sense. You guys claim Hib can cause epiglottitis in some and meningitis in others – two unrelated diseases. Or it can cause pneumonia. Or sepsis. Or nothing at all – it is found in asymptomatic people all the time. And have you not heard of the term “aseptic meningitis”?

To put it another way, according to you guys, Hib causes anything, everything and nothing.

That is your perfectly ridiculous paradigm.

Of course, if you had *temporal* associations between germ exposure and sickness you might be on a surer footing. But you don’t. Germs are ubiquitous and all people are exposed to them all the time. If they were one trillionth as dangerous as we have been led to believe then no organism could possibly exist.

“Why do you imagine you are qualified to hold an opinion on this topic?”

Why are non-homeopaths entitled to hold opinions about homeopathy? Why are non-engineers entitled to hold opinions about the cars they will drive? Why is it that baby poisoners are incapable of arguing in good faith?

Oh silly question.

“Just out of curiosity, is it tuberculosis in general of which you so irrationally deny the existence?”

When did I say I denied that TB existed?

“Do you believe in Hepatitis A? Foodborne disease in general?”

Well I wouldn’t recommend people eat cyanide or get Al and foreign proteins injected into them. As for Hep A, I certainly believe people get liver disease and cancer.

More people than before we started vaccinating against it (Hep B vaccine) in fact. If you think that the problem is some virus then you are welcome to proffer up some actual evidence.

So far you haven’t provided anything that I can see.

But don’t worry because I am nothing if not charitable so I will help you out on your next arguments. Try “what about the apparent success of antibiotics?” and “what about all my kids coming down with chickenpox at the same time!”.

Blogger Daniel July 12, 2017 7:37 PM  

I kept my daughter and later my midle son off gardasil in despite of heavy goverment pressure. That one is a true scam and dangerous

Blogger Glaivester July 13, 2017 11:33 PM  

#82 rtp:

No idea what you’re trying to get at here. The pertussis vaccine is acellular which means that it does not and indeed, cannot prevent the bacteria itself. Those who are vaccinated are just as likely to spread the disease as those who are not – no more no less.

That would be the vaccine that Francis Parker Yockey refers to as the "ineffective" vaccine - it makes you immune from the disease, but not from the infection (i.e. you can become an asymptomatic carrier of the disease). There is also a cellular vaccine, that has more adverse side effects and is generally not used anymore, but that is less likely to make you a carrier.

https://infogalactic.com/info/Pertussis_vaccine

#43 Avalanche:
I got [the smallpox vaccine] as a kid when they invented it (I guess?)

Unless you are more than 200 years old, smallpox vaccine was not invented during your lifetime. The cowpox/smallpox vaccine was developed in 1796 (and versions involving using smallpox scabs were used at least 2-3 centuries prior to that) and was the first vaccine.

#47 Brad Richards:
Polio. Of course the vaccine does not directly prevent transmission. That's not what vaccines do. What they do is prevent someone from contracting the disease. If someone never contracts the disease, then - even if exposed - they will not transmit it further. The protection of other people is indirect.

Depends on what you mean by "contract the disease." You can become infected with a disease, but have a low-level asymptomatic infection that is still transmissible to others (in whom it may not be asymptomatic). In layman's terms, you can become a carrier. Some vaccines prevent infection, others simply prevent symptoms but do not prevent carrier-level infections.

#37 Javk Amok:
I think a Tetanus shot is important for anyone active in the outdoors, yet now we discover the bit about DTaP making you more succeptible to PRN-negative strains of pertussis. So these idiots are making it impossible to get a Tetanus shot without increasing your odds of getting whooping cough.

No, it increases your odds of becoming a CARRIER of whooping cough.

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey July 14, 2017 9:02 PM  

@rtp
"It isn’t endemic but then, it never was – such a term is meaningless because disease isn’t contagious"

This is comical. Now I'm starting to feel sorry for you. Tell us more about your hypothesis--how the germ theory of illness is all wrong, and how smallpox, epiglottitis, and every other infectious disease known to man are, in actuality, due to an imbalance of humours. Please. You're doing far more than I ever could to discredit your side.

Your pathetic inability to document any actual incidence data to support your ludicrous denial of the fall in bacterial meningitis rates over the past few decades, and of the near elimation of pediatric epiglottitis as a disease, is hardly surprising, of course.

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey July 14, 2017 9:24 PM  

"Bacteria in CSF is neither necessary nor sufficient to prove someone has meningitis"

1. What part of "bacterial meningitis" are you so pathetically failing to comprehend?

2. It certainly is sufficient. So you are maintaining, as I suspected, that CSF is not normally sterile, but is typically colonized with bacteria in healthy individuals? Do you have any data that you think supports this strange hypothesis? Or just feelz?

"You guys claim Hib can cause epiglottitis in some and meningitis in others – two unrelated diseases."

Perhaps a simple analogy would be helpful to someone at your level. I also claim that kebabs can cause rape, terrorism, and no-go areas-- three seemingly-unrelated societal problems. Does that help?

"And have you not heard of the term “aseptic meningitis”?"

Clearly, you've never heard of the term "virus." Oy vey.

"When did I say I denied that TB existed?"

Short term memory problems?

"I certainly don’t support large scale migration but this has nothing to do with fear of contagious disease."

You're welcome. Or rather than denying the existence of mycobacterium tuberculosis, are you claiming that the entire concept of "Third World immigrants" is one big hoax? Or just that the markedly higher prevalence of TB (and MDR TB) in Third World immigrants represents a conspiracy of some sort? You seem more than usually confused (even for you) on this one.

“Why do you imagine you are qualified to hold an opinion on this topic?”

Uh, see the comment I was responding to, perhaps? I was just spitting it back at him, verbatim. You do go from frankly delusional to excessively literal-minded at warp speed, don't you?

"Well I wouldn’t recommend people eat cyanide or get Al and foreign proteins injected into them. As for Hep A blablabla"

Excessively verbose. A simple "no" would suffice (and would convey your faith-based belief in the 4 humors more clearly and effectively).

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