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Friday, August 11, 2017

Diversity in tech

A 5-time IT manager with 26 years of experience explains the reality of diversity in technology
Large Tech Company - Team of 11

Diversity policy that caused me a lot of problems. I didn't have the proper control over who I could interview and my main problem was finding competent engineers regardless of race or sex. I did end up interviewing a very diverse set of candidates which made the process extra grueling as I wasted time with so many under-qualified diversity candidates.

Some of these diversity interviews were my most memorable for how bad the candidates were. As an example an Indian woman with a very impressive resume and monster SQL background. Only interview I ended after 10 minutes because the candidate asked me what SELECT meant in an example statement I white boarded and asked her to correct. Turns out the recruiting company had rewritten her resume for her and she was just a blatant diversity candidate. I complained to my manager about this as a waste of my time and was reminded my team was all white and with only one female.

I did so many interviews I knew were I waste of my time that I started just trying a few new techniques on the candidates as interview practice for myself. It was such a waste of time for myself and the candidate and I felt bad wasting time but I had no choice. There was no chance I would hire them but HR's method of forcing diversity just kept tossing bad candidates at me.

I eventually worked around the process by finding my own candidates and secretly pushing them through the screening process. I could have been fired for this but my resource problem was so bad I didn't have a choice.

For unrelated reasons I left that position. The single female on my team was promoted to take my place, against my recommendation. She was a pretty good engineer but had no experience managing and the team fell apart less then a year after I left. All my former team members all told me it was due to the ruthless micromanagement by my replacement. In my experience, micromanagement is the behavior of a lot of new managers thrust into a job that is too big for them to handle regardless of sex/race. Also, I never filled the SQL dev position but my replacement did hire a different Indian women as the SQL dev. I did hear she was incompetent and fired after 6 months.

I learned from this to always have full hiring control of my team or be doomed to fail.
Contra this, Google's CEO, Pichai Sundararajan doubled down and claimed Google "really need to have people internally who represent the world in its totality. And yet, the company has yet to implement a policy of aggressively hiring Nazis, Eskimos, Christians, or Mbenga bushmen from Cameroon.
“To the girls who dream of being an engineer or an entrepreneur, and who dream of creating amazing things, I want you to know that there’s a place for you in this industry, there’s a place for you at Google,” he told the crowd gathered at a company recreation field. “Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise,” he said to cheers and applause. “You belong here and we need you.”

Pichai told the audience, which included about 50 contest finalists from seven countries including the U.S., that seeing the girls gave him hope for the future.

“At Google we are very committed to building products for everyone in the world,” Pichai said. “To do that well, we really need to have people internally who represent the world in totality. It’s really important that more women and girls have the opportunity to participate in technology, to learn how to code, create and innovate.”
Both perspectives can't be correct.

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88 Comments:

Blogger Dirk Manly August 11, 2017 5:29 AM  

I've yet to work with a single Indian H1-B who was competent.

Anonymous Post Alley Crackpot August 11, 2017 5:44 AM  

Remember the snit that a certain developer caused over Linus's project management style?

Remember how quickly that resolved in favour of not giving a flying toss about that developer's snit-filled exit?

Again, res ipsa loquitur ... Linus made the best decision possible given the circumstances.

Blogger Mister Excitement August 11, 2017 5:54 AM  

American companies have completely broken the social contract with the American people.

There is absolutely no loyalty or trust between labor and corporations any more.

Not only have they shipped almost every job possible overseas, the few remaining jobs are subject to Leftist browbeating.

It'll take years for the American labor market to recover.

Anonymous TheDividualist August 11, 2017 5:55 AM  

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Anonymous TheDividualist said...

Hi VD

I suppose the problem with understanding all this is that the pattern is somehow opposite than what we saw through all of human history. There were lots and lots periods of history where you were forced to give a job to someone not qualified but belonging to a specific group. But that group used to be the elite, the ruling class, the politically well connected nobility, when Spanish warships were commanded not by experienced naval captains but by nobles who were used to horses, just because they were nobles (all countries used to be like that until Sir Francis Drake invented naval meritocracy).

So how the hell is it possible that today it is done in favor of people who are NOT any sort of an aristocratic elite ruling class, but, in fact, is based on the idea that they are oppressed?

And this kind of question is really appears in many different forms. For example, in the past, people often had an unrealistic view of how morally their group behaved and how morally other groups. So whites in the past could have considered whites more moral than they actually are and nonwhites more immoral than they actually are because all groups naturally tend to be self-serving in this. But todays whites do the exact opposite, they underestimate their own morality and overestimate that of other groups.

And so on there are many similar stuff.

And this is seriously difficult to explain. The reason Moldbug's philosophy and much of NRx is so extremely complicated is that it is an attempt to explain something that is nearly unexplainable.

A fairly current summary would be that when whites openly discriminate against and hate whites they get holiness points for their selflessness, which is used in competing for status and power.

Blogger ZhukovG August 11, 2017 6:33 AM  

If Jews are are the Common Cold, then Indians(dot) are Ebola.

Blogger Sam August 11, 2017 6:42 AM  

@4
I do agree with the NRx explanation (since it helps explain the coordination anddirection). Other possible explanations:

-remove competition
If you are a member of the elite, other whites are your biggest threat so replacing them with incompetent individuals makes you more secure. However if only you do it, you go bankrupt so you have to force everyone to do it.

-Narcissist Personality Disorder
It turns out there are people who are distressed when others are happy and seek to hurt anyone who is better of then them. Also these people are more common in areas where social controls are loser since that allows them to avoid detection (like urban areas). This is almost certainly what Christianity was picking up when it talked about people working for Satan because such individuals tirelessly work to harm others. We are talking 'pee out of their car on the highway' pettiness to straight up poisoning.

-Women
Women shit test men. Since white men have failed the shit test, they are trying to get access to as many non-whites as possible.

-The Jews (or other clannish groups in this case)
Lying to gullible people to convince them you deserve more.

Blogger szopen August 11, 2017 6:45 AM  

Introverts are overrepresented in IT jobs. One study found that ISTJ, INTJ and INTP make together 50% of software professionals (they comprise 17% of the population). The overrepresentation found in this study was the most blatant for INTJs (2.1% of the population, 15% in the study) and INTPs (3.3% of the population, 12% in the study). Other studies may differ in percentages, but they all conclude that introverts with "T" component (ISTJs, INTPs, INTJs) plus sometimes extraverts with "T" component are overrepresented.

Hence, I postulate:
Start shaming the introverts. We INTJs/INTPs should be aware of our introvert privilege.

Start affirmative actions for extroverts with "F" component, such as ESFJ (one study found ZERO ESFJs, while they are moer than 12% of the population!!!).

After all, the differences in the percentage of different MBTI types couldn't be possibly due to their different interests and fact that they find different jobs interesting. Extrovert Feelers gap is surely due to harmful stereotypes, discriminatory practices and introvert privilege.

I would say someone should write a piece (in English better than mine) denouncing such awful practices and send them to jezebel, theatlantic and new tork times. And of course demand that google will reveal how many of their workers are evil introverts.

Aaaand now something unrelated: recommended gmail alternatives, not in danger of SJW takeover, without too much advertisement and with reasonable interface?

Blogger SouthRon August 11, 2017 6:51 AM  

Protonmail

Blogger Harambe August 11, 2017 6:57 AM  

Well at least they're eating their own dogfood

Blogger szopen August 11, 2017 6:57 AM  

And ever more obviously, the fact that there are more male xNTx and xSTx, and more female xxFx, have nothing to do with the fact that the women are underrepresented in IT. No, thinking that would be hateful.

Blogger SouthRon August 11, 2017 7:00 AM  

Can confirm.

Phone interviewed an Indian candidate. He was excellent, after a couple phone interviews we brought him in for a face-to-face. It was immediately obvious he was not the person we phone interviewed. I cut it off after 5 minutes.

Then there was the diversity interviewee who looked great on paper for Linux and FreeBSD work kernel work. Had great claims to network driver development, but when I mentioned the basic structures for managing network buffers he asked, "what's that?"

Or the Indian that use Visual Test to drive his computer and make it look like he was doing work while he slept in the call-out rooms off the board room.

I could go on and on.

Anonymous Jake August 11, 2017 7:14 AM  

As a former manager in a very big tech company, I can confirm.

The silver lining to this sad story is that many small and mid-size tech companies simply can't (or won't) compete for diversity candidates with these large tech companies, who are competing so hard for the very limited supply of female, black, hispanic engineers that they artificially raise their price (overpay them) and deplete the market of them. So the smaller tech companies have to "make do" with white and Asian men (who don't count for tech diversity).

Another advantage of many smaller tech companies is a minimal HR department, so all the resumes go directly to the hiring managers, rather than being subject to a diversity screening by HR. The smaller the HR department relative to the engineering staff, the more successful the company in my experience.

I currently work in a local office of 20 men (18 white, 2 Asian) and no women, with an HR staff ratio of 1 per 400 employees. Not coincidentally, it is one of the most profitable firms in its tech sector.

Blogger exfarmkid August 11, 2017 7:16 AM  

Agree with the first quote. For our contract engineering subdivision, HR would send us completely unqualified female candidates. Solution? The male managers of the subdivisions got around this by talking to each other with the end result that the female candidates were sent to positions matching their skills and we would get male engineers to interview for our positions.

Are there any HR departments worth having?

Blogger Akash August 11, 2017 7:19 AM  

why do men take part in Google competitions or work for SJW companies?

Working for people who hate you, where you know you have a disadvantage or entering such google competitions
makes no sense at all
no sympathy for these men- were they living under a rock- there are plenty of companies - they may be small that are not SJW driven...

Blogger Stilicho August 11, 2017 7:27 AM  

Relentless micromanagement is a hallmark of female managers as well as managers who are promoted above their ability. When the two are combined, you get Nurse Ratched for a manager. The concept of hiring highly competent people and delegating authority and responsibility sufficient for them to do their jobs well is utterly foreign to such managers. Sometimes, this lack of leadership ability gets supercharged by insecurity in the form of fear that a subordinate will get credit for good results or that the micromanager won't be able to take credit for a subordinate's success. It creates a poisonous atmosphere and the good employees soon start looking for better jobs.

Blogger Resident Moron™ August 11, 2017 7:31 AM  

No, there is no HR department worth having.

Because such departments represent an abdication of management responsibility by definition, and that always affects the whole company.

Blogger Shimshon August 11, 2017 7:33 AM  

https://code.likeagirl.io/actually-i-was-biologically-designed-to-be-an-engineer-460ab0c377dc

This woman name drops Ludwig von Mises and claims that rather than being the exception the Mr. Damore recognizes exists, rather proves the rule that women can too haz tech.

"Contrary to your belief that the lack of women in tech is due to biology, I was actually biologically designed to be an engineer."

Anonymous I'm Not a Fascist. But My Sons Are. August 11, 2017 7:43 AM  

Re: https://code.likeagirl.io/actually-i-was-biologically-designed-to-be-an-engineer-460ab0c377dc

Those comments, tho... my sacred SJW cow can beat up your sacred SJW cow. #objectivity.

Blogger Cloom Glue August 11, 2017 7:50 AM  

The fight potential of competent men inside IT departments at google was discussed yesterday.

After reading @7 psychology acronyms and @12s minimal HR in medium sized companies, I can see my view of the world is skewed by my experience in only medium sized companies.

Anonymous AT August 11, 2017 7:52 AM  

Someone should show them this Indian National Programming Skills report which tested the ability of 36k comp sci students from Indian universities:
https://www.scribd.com/document/345948744/National-Programming-Skills-Report-Engineers-2017-Report-Brief

64% of the students couldn't event get their code to compile. Even 31% of students from the top 100 colleges in India couldn't get their code to compile.

But most amusing is that even among comp sci students there's a huge male vs female performance difference: 75% of women could not get their code to compile vs 57% of men and the overall programming ability score of men was 2.5x that of the women in the study. Oops, I guess the test was biased.

Anonymous Anonymous August 11, 2017 7:54 AM  

These tech guys don't realize how good they have it, when they do it'll be too late. Women always turn a workplace poisonous. The chucking hens with their gossiping, non stop petty arguments and complaints that they will never let go. Add in incompetent black and Browns and forget about it. You'll spend your day covering up for the aa incompetents in a toxic crab basket on steroids work environment.

Blogger szopen August 11, 2017 7:58 AM  

Akash wrote:why do men take part in Google competitions or work for SJW companies?

Because, contrary to what you assume, a lot of people does not realise google is SJW-infested company, or don't realise what is exactly hiding behind loft slogans about equality and commitment to highest quality. Or just because they care about money. Or because "I am working for google" sounds very cool. Some of my former students work(ed?) for google and they did that because they were excited about working for technological giant, while not caring about anything much besides being able to write cool code. Being an technology-fixated nerd has its downsides, you know.

Anonymous Anonymous August 11, 2017 7:58 AM  

Agreed, half of the ones that I've worked with use the wrong terminology constantly. I have to ask them questions in the way I would a child to determine what the actual issue is. The only reason they have jobs is because companies can pay them lower wages.the mindset seems to come from a combination of cost cutting and not really understanding what the guys in IT actually do.

Blogger Robert Coble August 11, 2017 8:07 AM  

While working for a large "tech" company, I was tasked with doing the technical interview of candidates at the local office. One young woman came in with a fantastic resume. HR and my manager gave her glowing reviews SOLELY on that basis - and the fact (repeated often) that she was a woman. I looked over the resume and found that she had tons of experience in every "hot" technical specialty that had been listed by HR for the job. She even had 3 years experience writing Visual BASIC code in the latest version that had only been released 6 months earlier. I asked her a simple question: what was the project/program you developed using Visual BASIC? She hemmed and hawed for about 5 minutes, evading the question, then finally admitted that she saw the requirement (put in by HR, not by the technical staff) for that much experience in the latest version of Visual BASIC and so figured she had to include it just to get an interview. SHE HAD NEVER USED Visual BASIC AT ALL! I began to dig into her "experience" in other areas on her resume and found that she had no real experience whatsoever, and that she had been a stay-at-home Mom for the last 3 years. What was so funny (to me, at least) was her self-righteous indignation at my questions, because "diversity" entitled her to the job, qualifications be damned. She finally gave me a snippy (and very frosty) response: "I guess I'm just not what you are looking for!" I replied, "You are right; have a nice day." and ended the "interview."

I wish that was an exception but it was not. The larger the company/organization, the higher the ratio of HR to tech staff, the more likely it is to get "diversity" candidates for "tech" jobs who are manifestly unqualified to do the job. I've had qualified women on my teams because I look for a successful technical track record, and I don't give a rat's ass about your plumbing or your color or any other irrelevant aspect of your personal life. The only question is simple: can you do this job?

Blogger Orville August 11, 2017 8:08 AM  

monster SQL background. Only interview I ended after 10 minutes because the candidate asked me what SELECT meant in an example statement

Holy Shit! She must have copied off someone else's resume.

Blogger Orville August 11, 2017 8:12 AM  

Ok, I didn't finish reading it. Recruiter faked a resume. Tech recruiters are like flies on dung. No amount of hand waving can get them away from you.

I eventually worked around the process by finding my own candidates and secretly pushing them through the screening process.

This is my preferred way and usually more effective, just find and target the hiring mgr and go around HR.

Blogger James Dixon August 11, 2017 8:50 AM  

> It’s really important that more women and girls have the opportunity to participate in technology, to learn how to code, create and innovate.”

Opportunity does not equate to outcome. And he knows this.

> Holy Shit! She must have copied off someone else's resume.

I dealt with one employment group (who shall remain nameless) who actually did things like that. This is not a complaint. They knew how the game was played and were looking to get the people who contacted them jobs, so they tailored the resumes to the job to get them in the door.

Blogger Cail Corishev August 11, 2017 8:54 AM  

"It’s really important that more women and girls have the opportunity to participate in technology, to learn how to code, create and innovate."

There's so much stupid here, but one major bit of stupid: they have the opportunity. This isn't 1950; no one's telling girls to stay in the kitchen today. Just the opposite; everyone around them is pushing them toward college and career. And companies like Google are doing everything short of kidnapping them off the street and strapping them into cubicles to get them into tech. They've had opportunity-plus for decades now, and even a diversity-obsessed company like Google can't get its female tech workforce over 20%.

So they're left talking about it in passive terms as if there's some unknown force out there that's keeping girls and women away from them. It's like talking about institutional racism after your institution has replaced all its white people with blacks, as if the ism can continue to exist after you've replaced all the ists with antis.

Punjab just knows Google will be better when it is 50% (at least) women, and there is something preventing that. How does he know this? Because to know anything else would be wrong.

Blogger Cail Corishev August 11, 2017 9:02 AM  

"I could have been fired for this but my resource problem was so bad I didn't have a choice."

I've always found it interesting how conscientious people will stay loyal to a company far beyond the company's loyalty to them, working extra hours for free, risking their own positions to make sure the work gets done, and so on. Even when they have no profit stake, no one's going to thank them for it, and they'd be safer playing Solitaire all day, they will continue to fight the system to do their job. It's like that trait of conscientiousness will find a target so the trait can express itself, even if the target is unworthy of it.

Anonymous Grateful Plebe August 11, 2017 9:12 AM  

As a white male tech worker, I've seen the walls close in, bit by bit. All while keeping my mouth shut, because I need the money. Now after years of repression, a political movement that speaks for me. The AltRight is the most important political development in my lifetime.

Blogger SouthRon August 11, 2017 9:18 AM  

"Recruiter faked a resume. Tech recruiters are like flies on dung. No amount of hand waving can get them away from you."

This is why I always carry on my own resumes. Often it bears no resemblance to what the recruiter gave them. I've had good laughs over them with interviewer and had them go, "Oh shit. You're overqualified for this position but we have another one you'd be great for."

Blogger liberranter August 11, 2017 9:32 AM  

"Contrary to your belief that the lack of women in tech is due to biology, I was actually biologically designed to be an engineer."

During my two decades in the tech sector, EVERY single woman I've ever known who bragged about her own engineering awesomeness, who pontificated endlessly about being "inspired" or "God-gifted" with engineering talent was, without exception, a talentless and incompetent fraud who eventually wound up getting kicked off of multiple projects and eventually getting fired.

Women who chest-thump and constantly evangelize their engineering "accomplishments" should be treated the same way as people who constantly wear the "Christian" label on their sleeves. If they have to constantly assert themselves and the evidence for their claim seems invisible, there is probably "no 'there' there."

Anonymous Bellator Mortalis August 11, 2017 9:43 AM  

This situation is one factor driving so many companies to mainly bring in contractors for IT. There are many thousands of white males (often age 40+ to 60+) who now work on contract for these corporations. As contractors they are not required to fit any HR requirements -- since they are not employees.

They are normally not brought in as "coders", but rather are "architects" of some flavor. Cloud architects, data architects, solutions architects, enterprise architects, application architects, database architects, data warehouse architects, security architects, etc. Alternatively the architect title is for a specific technology (for example, Mulesoft architect), the technology is usually whatever is currently technically hot and people with skills are in short supply. Of course the application architects are expected to know how to code and to do so at need, especially in agile (Scrum, XP) environments. In most cases the title "architect" is meaningless, the contractors don't actually "do architecture", they are simply subject matter experts.

Staff augmentation contracts are usually 6 or 12 months, with extensions running up to 3 years. In some cases the staffing firm has a master agreement with a client and provides contractors for a series of projects (as opposed to staff augmentation). In this situation the contractors may be at the client for years (I have heard of cases where the contractor has been with a client for up to 7 or more years).

Of course getting around the diversity requirements is not the only reason these white males have to work as contractors. The other is that companies don't want older people as employees. 60 year old IT employee BAD. 60 year old IT contractor OK.

Blogger Cail Corishev August 11, 2017 9:47 AM  

Remember the snit that a certain developer caused over Linus's project management style?

That's a good example of why the only thing that really matters is who is in charge. You can try to construct the perfect, SJW-proof code of conduct that's fair to everyone, even explicitly outlawing the things SJWs do, and if the person(s) in charge is an SJW or a sympathizer of theirs, your rules won't be worth the bytes it takes to describe them. You have to have a man at the top who has the will to slap them down and the power to make it stick. Linus can do that.

When the man at the top is not only a diversitard, but an Indian whose #1 goal will always be to bring in more of his countrymen, you're screwed, no matter what the official rules are.

Blogger Avalanche August 11, 2017 9:48 AM  

@29 "I've always found it interesting how conscientious people will stay loyal to a company far beyond the company's loyalty to them"

Yes, and there's pitiful stupid Damore! Did you see the interview with Bloomberg!? Oh dear GOD!

SOMEONE needs to get him by the short hairs and tell him Vox's maxim: DO NOT TALK TO THE MEDIA! Wanna bet he screws up his NLRB case AND his lawsuit?!!?

Blogger daddynichol August 11, 2017 9:51 AM  

“At Google we are very committed to building products for everyone in the world,” Pichai said. “To do that well, we really need to have people internally who represent the world in totality. It’s really important that more women and girls have the opportunity to participate in technology, to learn how to code, create and innovate.

Should they know that BEFORE they work a Google? How long will a tech company survive with a gender biased on-the-job training program? A company that hires competent, knowledgeable coders, programmers, etc. will smoke a diversity based company.

Blogger daddynichol August 11, 2017 9:53 AM  

“To the girls who dream of being an engineer or an entrepreneur, and who dream of creating amazing things, I want you to know that there’s a place for you in this industry, there’s a place for you at Google,” he told the crowd gathered at a company recreation field. “Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise,” he said to cheers and applause. “You belong here and we need you.”

Do the Google employees refer to him as "Dear Leader"?

Blogger Othmar Regin August 11, 2017 9:53 AM  

One of the reasons I like(ed) working in IT is that I though I would not need to have 5 Dindu Co-workers, and sadly this is changing fast.

Blogger Troy Lee Messer August 11, 2017 9:56 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Cail Corishev August 11, 2017 9:58 AM  

"Contrary to your belief that the lack of women in tech is due to biology, I was actually biologically designed to be an engineer."

I seriously doubt she's read the memo. Every single headline I've seen gets it wrong, claiming that he said women (not "some women") are biologically unsuited for tech work, as if tech work is to men as childbirth is to women. That plays right into the solipsism of women, who think every headline is about them anyway.

Blogger Troy Lee Messer August 11, 2017 9:59 AM  

Chateau Heariste and Vox Day are the Washington and Fraklin of our day.

Blogger Cail Corishev August 11, 2017 10:00 AM  

“Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise,” he said to cheers and applause. “You belong here and we need you.”

Someone in a previous thread, maybe dh or dc, talked about the way Google employees are convinced they're part of some grand scheme to change the world (which is true, except it's not for the better). There really is a cultish flavor to some of what comes out of there.

Blogger Troy Lee Messer August 11, 2017 10:00 AM  

Franklin. The coder of the autocorrect is doubt a diversity hire

Blogger Solaire Of Astora August 11, 2017 10:09 AM  

All this makes me wish the Sphinx was real and could spend a month testing people in Silicon Valley.

Blogger HalibetLector August 11, 2017 10:11 AM  

Cail Corishev wrote:“Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise,” he said to cheers and applause. “You belong here and we need you.”

Someone in a previous thread, maybe dh or dc, talked about the way Google employees are convinced they're part of some grand scheme to change the world (which is true, except it's not for the better). There really is a cultish flavor to some of what comes out of there.


That's not unique to Google. The entire Silicon Valley ecosystem is really good at using propaganda techniques you can find in Mao's little red book. They use it to convince programmers they're "changing the world" by making facebook for dogs.

Zed shaw talks a bit about it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5Xh2Go-jkM

And the TV show silicon valley mocks it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXuFrtmOYKg

Blogger Cail Corishev August 11, 2017 10:42 AM  

@45, Yes, it's kind of amazing how overnight billionnaires can convince smart tech employees that they should accept stagnant wages and cheap foreign coworkers whose cousins will take their job someday, because The Project is just that important.

In another time, people like Zuckerberg would have been dragged out by the mob by now, just based on their fortune and the way they use it to push people around.

Blogger James Dixon August 11, 2017 10:44 AM  

> When the man at the top is not only a diversitard, but an Indian whose #1 goal will always be to bring in more of his countrymen..

Waht you mean? Sundar hindu nuthin'. He a good boy. He go to college an ever'thing.

Blogger kurt9 August 11, 2017 10:49 AM  

Well, this would explain why so much software is just so bad.

It seems to me that there is a huge opportunity for people to start social media companies in places like Taiwan (where they do have good programmers) where all of the diversity crap can't touch them.

Blogger Tatooine Sharpshooters' Club August 11, 2017 10:51 AM  

Yet another demonstration of the innate childishness of the "diversity" crowd: people have their dreams crushed all the time, because most 'dreams' are delusional. Learning to live with that is one of the primary markers of being an actual adult.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash August 11, 2017 10:53 AM  

James Dixon wrote:Sundar hindu nuthin'.
Oh, gawd, I am so stealing that.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash August 11, 2017 10:54 AM  

Tatooine Sharpshooters' Club wrote:people have their dreams crushed all the time, because most 'dreams' are delusional. Learning to live with that is one of the primary markers of being an actual adult.
True, but women should never have their dreams crushed. It makes them feel bad, and anything that makes a woman feel bad is evil. And if that means that women will never grow up, well, there's a price to be paid for every dream.

Anonymous I'm Not a Fascist. But My Sons Are. August 11, 2017 10:55 AM  

@42 Someone in a previous thread, maybe dh or dc, talked about the way Google employees are convinced they're part of some grand scheme to change the world (which is true, except it's not for the better). There really is a cultish flavor to some of what comes out of there.

Ever seen The Circle?

As a film it's complete shit, of course, but my brother -- a former Google employee -- says it bears an uncanny resemblance to Google's 'culture'.

Anonymous BBGKB August 11, 2017 10:58 AM  

Phone interviewed an Indian candidate. He was excellent, after a couple phone interviews we brought him in for a face-to-face. It was immediately obvious he was not the person we phone interviewed

I hear it is so bad that people take pictures of Indians who interview to make sure it's the same one that shows up to work.

One of the reasons I like(ed) working in IT is that I though I would not need to have 5 Dindu Co-workers, and sadly this is changing fast.

I sometimes use the word cohort for coworkers that don't work.

Anonymous Gen. Kong August 11, 2017 11:04 AM  

Mister Excitement wrote:
American companies have completely broken the social contract with the American people.

There is absolutely no loyalty or trust between labor and corporations any more.

Not only have they shipped almost every job possible overseas, the few remaining jobs are subject to Leftist browbeating.

It'll take years for the American labor market to recover.


Every statement you made is inarguably true. So how many of the average morons who glue themselves to the television daily and continue to borrow fake money, send their own kids into the maw of a totally converged public edumacayshun system, even have a clue about this?? Yes, more than ever before but we still have a lot of red pills which need to be taken.

The American labor market will not even have a chance to start recovering until all of the importation of replacement labor is ended, the wall is built and the law enforced and welfare ended. This will not happen until the whole matrix of power (banksteins, gay old pedos, D-jersey communists, judges, police, city and state officials who openly defy the law, etc.) are neutralized to the point where Trump can actually implement policies - assuming he is really serious about doing so (which is another question altogether).

Blogger Cecil Henry August 11, 2017 11:14 AM  

Diversity means fewer White people.

That's its purpose. Its perfectly valid for Whites to form their own groups, to live and work together, in societies and nations. NO apologies.

Attacking that is simply attacking Whites. ITs unacceptable.

We need 'diversity' just means chasing DOWN Whites.

Blogger Cecil Henry August 11, 2017 11:42 AM  

I don't work in IT, but I have seen how 'group' work turns out in other industries.

So I ask those with experience:

Does the 'diversity' and teamwork infusion simply result in the competent doing all the work for the incompetent and excusing their failures.... endlessly??


Because this is a big drain on resources in a lot of companies. Not so much small companies that can avoid the 'diversity' call, but larger organizations with 'human resources departments'.

Blogger James Dixon August 11, 2017 12:21 PM  

> Oh, gawd, I am so stealing that.

My pleasure. It just seemed so appropriate.

Blogger J Van Stry August 11, 2017 12:22 PM  

I worked for a company as a manager under contract once on a huge quarter billion plus dollar program. By the end of the first year, I was the only white guy (excuse me, 'non-diversity') manager left (as well as the only white guy PERIOD).

I was also the only manager whose team was not just on schedule, but ahead of it AND under budget.

Eventually I was replaced, by a diversity hire, but they couldn't fire me, because the government agency for whom this work was being done had said if I was fired, the contract would be pulled. So I was side-lined and put into a position where they were hoping I'd quit because of all the abuse being heaped on me.

I quickly worked out an agreement where I was laid off with a nice little unemployment package (because they really wanted me gone, as I was a constant reminder that the new diversity manager couldn't do the job and my staff (hand picked, and yes 'diverse') hated them.
I even got the gov agency to push for the agreement, as a last favor after a few words in private.

Six months later the program collapsed, the contract was pulled and the company lost well over a hundred million dollars. All because they couldn't have a white guy in a management position.

It was no exaggeration to say that I was the only person holding that job together. I spent more time fighting fires that weren't even my responsibility (because the program leader was an obnoxious bitch who couldn't have led a dropped rock to hit the ground) as most of the 'diverse' hires on other teams were insufferable head cases who spent all their time insulting government employees.

Blogger DonReynolds August 11, 2017 12:30 PM  

I have always worked in technical positions, but seldom in IT. It seems we all have the same problems, when it comes to PRT (Personnel, Recruitment, and Training).

Back in the Bad Old Days, there was a common expression.."If you do not want a job, go to Personnel." By and large, they were fishing without bait. Always with the same positions posted, which were seldom filled, but it kept the applications flowing and gave the office pinkies something to do.

For most of the jobs I ever had since graduating college in 1975, were never posted at Personnel. Think about that. There was no announcement of a vacancy. I did not even fill out an application until AFTER I was already hired by the boss. Personnel was my LAST stop before reporting to work. Half of the time, I was not even part of the Payroll system. I was paid monthly by Accounts Payable. In fact, anytime someone sent me to Personnel, without having serious talks about hiring, I knew to go elsewhere. They were not interested at this time.

I always believed (and most of the time, I was correct) that there is ALWAYS a position for someone who knows what the Devil they are doing and shows enthusiasm for doing the work.

More than once, I was hired by organizations under a Consent Decree, where they had caved to SJW lawyers and promised not to do it again. That often meant that every position in the organization was already labeled black-white and male-female. No one else could be hired, but hiring me as a "consultant" was an effective way to circumvent the Consent Decree and get the technical skills that the organization actually needed, but could not actively recruit.

Decide where YOU want to work and go there. Get in to see the boss, do your homework beforehand, and see if he is interested. If he is, there will be a frank discussion and you will be invited back for more talk in about a week. (He has to get permission from his boss too.) Some have suggesting spending time in the break room or hanging around the water cooler, to find out what is going on in an organization. These are not the people you want to meet. Go hang out at the photocopier instead. Those are the people who can tell you something useful. Photocopies means work is being done, materials are being duplicated for upcoming meetings, and they have contact with the people who produced the originals. They are not the people who do interviews. They are the people who make the place work.

Blogger ((( bob kek mando ))) - ( You are Welcome ... to go back to the hell hole you came from ) August 11, 2017 12:34 PM  

17. Shimshon August 11, 2017 7:33 AM
"Contrary to your belief that the lack of women in tech is due to biology, I was actually biologically designed to be an engineer."



she claims to have been genetically programmed for mathematics
...
and immediately prangs up the first math example she attempts to give.

"I won’t get into the multitude of studies that show that some of the assumptions you make about women are false, but let’s assume for the sake of this argument that those claims about the “average” woman are correct. Statistically speaking, you are describing about 68% of that demographic. "

what she's talking about here is a normal Standard Deviation curve:
https://infogalactic.com/info/File:Standard_deviation_diagram.svg

the problem is that she is assuming that BOTH tails are suitable for the work at hand ... which is *exactly the opposite* of how the real world works.

in the Real World, the vast majority of the pop is approx equivalent in talent at job X, which is your 68.2%. and the Right Hand Tail is EXTRA talented. the problem is that she has added the Left Hand Tail to inflate her "suitable female" numbers.

and the Left Hand Tail actually consists of those females who are EXCEPTIONALLY UNSUITED to Math.

so while she claims that Damore is 'alienating' ~38% of the population ... she should actually be claiming 15.9%.

so...
is she incompetent at what she was genetically designed to do?

or lying?

Blogger ((( bob kek mando ))) - ( You are Welcome ... to go back to the hell hole you came from ) August 11, 2017 12:36 PM  

"That leaves 32% that are different from that stereotype. So even on some planet far, far away where your assumptions are correct, you would still be alienating 32% of the population."

Blogger ((( bob kek mando ))) - ( You are Welcome ... to go back to the hell hole you came from ) August 11, 2017 12:39 PM  

sounds to me like it's time for her to take up her genetic design to start popping out babies because she damn sure isn't very good at this Math stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NO0cvqT1tAE

Anonymous Hezekiah Garrett August 11, 2017 12:43 PM  

If this is inappropriate, feel free to delete ...

In the late 90s thru 2001 I was a network analyst on the team that first brought DSL internet to market. I burned out and quit tech back then and eventually worked my way into healthcare, specifically Emergency Medicine. Now I'm married, expecting a kid, etc.

If I were to ramp up, recert, etc what would be the best path for a +2SD Navy Vet with a lot of college but not so much as an associates.

I was looking at RHIA/RHIT, but the degree requirements are suboptimal.

I'm open to suggestion for a path back into tech that's certification heavy and university light, if you get my drift.

I know the Ilk have the experience I'd benefit from, and thanks for the suggestions.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash August 11, 2017 12:48 PM  

@J Van Stry
I worked as the product support manager for a company on a (for them) big project. The product was supposed to replace the company's original business which was being made obsolete by the Internet.
The company was owned and operated by Arabs, but, because it needed brains, the product was managed by a Jew. No, this wasn't in the mid-east or NYC.
It was a weird experience. All equipment had to be purchased from, literally, Cousin Achmed. When we needed space for a lab, it could only be leased from the CEO's father-in-law, at 3x the market price.

Literally all of the productive work on the project was being done by a dozen White guys and 2 Jews. It was like the Arabs were there to lie, disrupt any progress, lie, steal everything that wasn't nailed down, lie, be giant a##holes, lie, extract rent, lie, and steal from the shareholders.

The whole project was a shitshow and in the inevitable bankruptcy, the Jewish product director wound up buying the 3 or 4 still valuable parts of the company for about $0.03 on the dollar. Which, if you assume that was his objective, explained a lot of the decisions he made during the project.

Point being, even 95IQ Arabs know enough to hire White guys to get the productive work accomplished. Why the hell don't 110 IQ White women understand that?

Blogger DonReynolds August 11, 2017 12:50 PM  

@40 Cail Corishev
"That plays right into the solipsism of women, who think every headline is about them anyway."

Oh Man! You really stabbed the issue in the heart with that one, and you are so correct. Some are worse than others, even to the point of being tiresome. It is so difficult to speak to Wimmin about ANYTHING that they do not make the conversation about themselves. It does not matter if I bring up the weather, or cars, or politics, or fishing....the only response they tend to have is to make it ALL ABOUT THEM. Every time I try to get back on topic, they resist and we end up talking about two different things. They are talking about themselves and I am trying to talk about something else. That is exactly why I seldom speak to Wimmin. Just do not talk to them, unless it is necessary.

Anonymous Orville August 11, 2017 1:02 PM  

@63 Hezekiah, don't waste time on RHIA/RHIT they are joke certs that any dindu can get. I'm in a management position now and do very little tech anymore, but if I had to retrain and recert I'd go after IT security. Most of the trade mags are showing it as a hot area with decent income.

Blogger Nationalist Flicka August 11, 2017 1:08 PM  

**To do that well, we really need to have people internally who represent the world in totality**

If something doesn't change quickly, in about 20 years if you are white, you will be very hard pressed to find a job. No matter how many letters come after your name. And that's even if you can get a seat in university to earn those letters because, after all, colleges will have to represent the world in totality too.

See South Africa.

Blogger DonReynolds August 11, 2017 1:12 PM  

Cail Corishev wrote:"I could have been fired for this but my resource problem was so bad I didn't have a choice."

I've always found it interesting how conscientious people will stay loyal to a company far beyond the company's loyalty to them, working extra hours for free, risking their own positions to make sure the work gets done, and so on. Even when they have no profit stake, no one's going to thank them for it, and they'd be safer playing Solitaire all day, they will continue to fight the system to do their job. It's like that trait of conscientiousness will find a target so the trait can express itself, even if the target is unworthy of it.


I was fortunate or unfortunate enough to have a boss early in my career, who was interested in me "getting it". I could ask questions and get straight answers.

I got to a certain fork in the road where I would be fired if I did what they paid me to do OR fired if I did not. So I asked him how best to proceed.

He said....
"Do your job as best you can.
If they want to fire you they will, even if you can walk on water and never did anything wrong.
If they don't want to fire you they won't, no matter how many times you screw up.
So the best thing to do is what they pay you to do. Just do your job and don't worry too much about how long it lasts. Good people can get work anywhere."

Blogger dc.sunsets August 11, 2017 2:15 PM  

Yet another demonstration of the innate childishness of the "diversity" crowd: people have their dreams crushed all the time, because most 'dreams' are delusional. Learning to live with that is one of the primary markers of being an actual adult.

Where ARE the actual adults?

A world of people who believe in magical unlimited resources naturally insist on Universal Participation Trophies.

This inevitably creates a world of perpetual (petulant) children who truly expect magical outcomes.

It became a feedback loop about 22 years ago.

For all that time, the path to power & wealth was to give the crybabies what they demanded; what is central bank & political policy now but borrowing into insanity to "deliver" on Ponzi Promises & Expectations?

The managers of the Fed/Uncle Sam know there's an avalanche coming; their actions amount to spraying the mass of snow, ice & rock with water, trying to cement it in place a bit longer.

The metaphor is apt. Their appeasement of unreal expectations has dramatically increased the mass of destruction that overhangs our heads.

It is the dashing of expectations that most animates socially destructive force (see Sailer's take in the 1967 Detroit riots.)

Each day that passes sees a massive increase in the volume of sheer chaos promised us.

Blogger Reed Schrichte August 11, 2017 2:35 PM  

I read the whole 'rant'. It was not obviously anti-woman nor anti-diversity, and it appeared to represent at least an honest attempt to address the question of why there are not more women in IT. Maybe the writer was a bit naive in assuming that people in this country are interested in having a real conversation about the topic. He learned otherwise. '"Don't be evil" is the motto of Google's corporate code of conduct'... so how does suppressing alternative viewpoints (shoot the messenger is the classic response of the timid, the weak, and the insecure) serve the cause of good?

Blogger L. Jagi Lamplighter Wright August 11, 2017 2:44 PM  

I used to be a female IT person. I started out horrible at it. (My boss knew. I was in an entry level job.) I actually got to be quite excellent at my job--both the hardware and SQL parts of it.

But I would have been horrified and shamed to be hired by an IT company who picked me because I was a woman. What in the world does it matter what I, the person, am like. Tech work should answer for itself. Either my work is good enough, or it is not.

There is one place where gender does enter in though. I dropped out of IT work because I wanted to have kids and be a mom. I bet you my male co-worker is still working in that field now, 20 years later.

My boss even talked about this...how he didn't like hiring women because they would leave. I'm glad he hired me. I worked hard, and I stayed in that job until the contract ended. But I had sympathy for his position.

Blogger James Dixon August 11, 2017 3:15 PM  

> ...but if I had to retrain and recert I'd go after IT security.

I would second this. The corporate world is getting burned daily by security breaches and virus/trojan attacks. They need all the security people they can get their hands on. I've been told there are CEO's who actually have nightmares about this stuff.

Of course, most of them still run Windows, so there's only so much you can do for them.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash August 11, 2017 3:45 PM  

Good place to start is Amazon AWS. Certification test is very though, but only costs $150. The book to study is readily available, and I am told that it covers everything on the test. You can conduct your own practice labs with an AWS account, which is free for the 1st year.
It's a great thing to add to your resume because it's the current fad in IT.

Anonymous Clouseau August 11, 2017 3:46 PM  

Whenever some corporate dolt bitches to me that "they can't find good engineers to hire," I tell them the glaringly obvious answer: Offer higher salaries, and the top talent will be beating down their door. That shuts the morons right up.

It's funny, really. Sometimes you can really draw them into a cul de sac. Like if you know they drive a high end car.

Corporate Dolt: I can't find any good engineers to hire.

Me: Uh-huh. Hey, how do you like that BMW you just bought?

CD: Oh, it's really great. It's got blah blah blah...

Me: Is it really that much better than a Nissan?

CD: Oh yeah, yak yak, handling, blah blah, quality.

Me: So, if you know you have to pay more to get higher quality, why don't you just offer higher salaries for engineers?

CD: Gak. Choke. {Silence.}

Blogger Thucydides August 11, 2017 4:02 PM  

"have the opportunity to participate in technology, to learn how to code, create and innovate while constantly looking over your shoulder both at work and at home, just incase you fall afoul of our byzantine and ever morphing standards of "inclusion""

FTFY Pichai.

You're welcome.

Blogger Skylark Thibedeau August 11, 2017 4:14 PM  

I saw something recently that there were a lot of women in IT until numbers started to drop off in the Eighties. Occurred to me that there was no need for someone to punch that FORTRAN onto those punchcards anymore.

Anonymous Anonymous August 11, 2017 4:35 PM  

Odd... There must be advantages to working in a field where the platform is not 'new and sexy' ( i.e AS/400).

20+ years, three employers, eight different areas. All with skilled, competent male and female co-workers. One common thread among all of them was they were firmly of Midwest US culture.

Don't get me started on the east coast hot-shots who would come in to 'advise' us. Or the global resources that corporate forced upon the team...

Blogger APL August 11, 2017 4:48 PM  

"the candidate asked me what SELECT meant in an example statement I white boarded and asked her to correct"

Ha ha! Reminds me of a pleasant enough Indian woman I worked with recently, I showed her how to set up a database and connect to the database from a client.

Half an hour later I saw her updating her CV with sql knowledge.

Blogger roughcoat August 11, 2017 5:17 PM  

James Dixon wrote:> ...but if I had to retrain and recert I'd go after IT security.

I would second this. The corporate world is getting burned daily by security breaches and virus/trojan attacks. They need all the security people they can get their hands on. I've been told there are CEO's who actually have nightmares about this stuff.

Of course, most of them still run Windows, so there's only so much you can do for them.


How does one explicitly train for IT security work? Serious question, because the path toward that sort of career has always seemed very fuzzy to me. Maybe I missed something obvious though.

OpenID gnossoss August 11, 2017 5:39 PM  

As a coder with a few decades' experience, girls: we don't need you. We can handle it just fine. It's actually easier if you're not there.

Go enjoy nursing, teaching, or God forbid raising your own family and feeding and educating your children properly. We're not having any problems we need you to solve.

Blogger James Dixon August 11, 2017 5:43 PM  

> How does one explicitly train for IT security work?

There are specialized certifications for security. If you know the basics of IT, you can probably get by by simply reading the material and passing the tests. But there are also programs and courses you can take. Colleges are even offering IT degrees with specialties in security now. See https://www.sans.org/courses/ for some examples of the courses and http://www.phoenix.edu/vr/rfi?v7=itdegreeprograms&channel=srch&cid=BY12OOsS&mktg_prog=IST for an example of he college courses (they explicitly list Cybersecurity Foundations and Network Defense as a focus area).

"Training" in IT is almost always simply a matter of reading specialized material and practice using specialized software.

Blogger roughcoat August 11, 2017 5:57 PM  

Interesting, thanks.

Anonymous The Original Arrogant Penguins Fan August 11, 2017 6:28 PM  

"As an example an Indian woman with a very impressive resume and monster SQL background. Only interview I ended after 10 minutes because the candidate asked me what SELECT meant in an example statement I white boarded and asked her to correct. Turns out the recruiting company had rewritten her resume for her and she was just a blatant diversity candidate."

I think I've told the story before of the Chinese national I had to work with at a public university, who had a PhD in an IT related field? After a minute of working with her I realized she had never even seen a computer before I worked with her. It was just a noise and light box to her.

Anonymous pozymandias August 11, 2017 6:56 PM  

I sometimes wonder if the US and the West in general is heading into something akin to China's "Great Leap Forward", which of course everyone in China today knows was a huge leap backwards and led to an entire lost generation of know-nothings who had Mao's Little Red Book memorized but barely knew that the Earth was round. Of course the parallels are not perfect. Western societies don't have the same ability to create a totalitarian cult of personality quite the same as Asian ones seem to but the basic idea is the same. You get a society where adherence to an ideology makes up for incompetence, ignorance, stupidity, and even outright malice.

China's horrors evolved out of WWII, the chaos of civil war, and the fact that in the middle 20th century Communism became the default ideology of any society beset by war and poverty owing to the fact that the Communists were well organized and disciplined while their opponents were too busy with survival or settling their own ethnic and religious scores with each other.

Our sickness, the spread of The Poz[tm] is likewise coming from exhaustion and weakness. The younger generation is historically small thanks to collapsing birth rates and they are notoriously apathetic, poorly educated, historically illiterate, and devoid of any hope or vision of the future. Meanwhile the elite concentrates on consolidating its power and privileges while realizing that they are pretty much out of new things to leverage in science and technology. This is what's behind the H1B visa nonsense for instance. I left tech years ago and have recently been trying to get back in (I'm rethinking that now). The difference is that now virtually everyone I meet on interviews at all levels is from India. It's true that the Indians aren't generally very good and are almost impossible to understand. It doesn't matter to the tech moguls. They're *good enough* and with the huge computing power now available it doesn't matter if their code sucks (see footnote). The elite would rather have a docile, low paid, and mediocre tech workforce than one that might challenge their ideas and status.

Footnote: a long time ago I wrote and maintained code for a large DOS based point of sale system. I'm still proud of that because it was essentially bug free and instantly responsive on a 286! We were a literal three man company, my boss, me, and a very good salesman who had that "executive hair" thing going on. My boss was an old mainframe guy. One day he regaled me with tales of "overlays". It seems that when the mainframe's "huge" 32K or so wasn't big enough they would write their programs to (very carefully) overwrite parts of themselves they weren't using with code pulled in from disk or tape. Modern OSes do this for you with "swap space" to use the Linux term but these guys were hand-coding this to extract every bit of space and power from the machines they had to work with. I don't recall the details of the scheme but I do remember thinking it was fascinating and ingenious. Of course today no one gives a fuck. You could write most software in Python, compile that to Perl, compile that to JavaScript, and then run the whole monstrous abomination on a virtual machine running on a virtual machine running on yet another virtual machine and it would still sort of work. Sure the result might be total shit but hey, just hire some more tech support from Bangalore to keep the customers at bay and throw another thousand cores at it.

Blogger Cail Corishev August 11, 2017 9:58 PM  

I saw something recently that there were a lot of women in IT until numbers started to drop off in the Eighties.

Before then, a lot of women "programmers" were really doing rudimentary spreadsheet programming in languages like COBOL, telling the computer to pull certain records and insert them into certain fields in a report they'd laid out. They weren't coding the COBOL interpreter or the operating system.

The 80s is when there started being less of that and a lot more abstract stuff closer to the hardware, using languages like C. The difference between arithmetic (or bookkeeping) and algebra.

Anonymous Mr. Rational August 11, 2017 11:14 PM  

@84  Were you using C-Tree as your database back end too?  Good times.

Anonymous JJL August 12, 2017 12:22 AM  

I used to run a mental health provider in my late twenties, staffed almost entirely by 40 and 50 something female social worker SJW's. Imagine having to be the boss of these crazies. It was hell on earth. Unsurprisingly that period strongly corresponded with the most violently expedited part of my 'red-pilling'. In retrospect it was an extremely beneficial learning experience though, seeing just what the convergence Vox talks about looks like on steroids.

Anonymous pozymandias August 12, 2017 2:08 PM  

@86 (Mr. Rational) The code was all in QuickBasic compiled to x86 executables. Database access was basically reading and writing simple records. As I recall it was just flat files on the local disk. The POS terminal talked over a modem to a mainframe. Back then VAX/VMS was popular on those and they had a database tightly coupled with the way VMS Basic worked. I never saw the backend though so I really don't know. I wrote the front end code that the cashiers and store admins saw.

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