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Thursday, September 14, 2017

Catalonia's case for independence

A summary of the conclusion of European legal experts on Catalonia's case for independence:
As   a   result   of   their   research   and reflections,   the   authors   come   to   the  following conclusions and recommendations on the Right to Decide and the Catalan Government’s call for an independence referendum in October the 1st:

1. The   evolution   of   the   negotiating   process   between   the   Catalan   and   Spanish governments since the re-establishment of democracy in 1977 through time has allowed us to   identify   key   moments   of   a   deteriorating   political   relationship   where   the Spanish government has  gradually  renounced  the  accommodation  of  Catalan  territorial  demands. The evolution of this relationship sheds a new light on the tortuous path towards the legally binding referendum on political independence to be held on the 1st October 2017.

2. The upsurge  in territorial  demands  towards  political independencewas  put on the political  agenda  by  organized  Catalan  civil  society  immediately after  the  passing  of  the Constitutional  Tribunal  ruling  in  2010. Additionally,  there  has  been  a  clear  shift  in  popularterritorial  preferences, moving  from  preferences  asking  for  the  maintenance  of  the  current “status quo” to demands of “political independence,” irrespective of people’s age.

3. Catalan popular demand for a referendum on political independence has been largely justified by the democratic “Right  to  Decide”, which has evolved from the more traditional and  long-standing legal framework to the “national right to self-determination”. In other words, demands   for   political   independence   have   been   legitimized   by   a   democratic principle invested in the Catalan people, reinforced by the repeated denial to accommodate Catalonia’s demands by the Spanish government.

4. From   an   international   law   perspective,   it   appears   clearly that   there   is   no international legal prohibition barring a sub-state entity from deciding its political destiny by assessing the will of its people. Both case law and state practice support this conclusion. State  practice  demonstrates  that  numerous  geographically  diverse  sub-state  entities  have expressed  the  will  of  their  people  regarding  independence.  The  practice  occurs  both  with and  without  the  consent  of  the  national  state.  Many  sub-state  entities  have  achieved independence  after  assessing  the  political  will  of  their  people. EU  member  states  have recognized  many  former  sub-state entities that assessed their people’s political will and decided to pursue independence.

5. As  regards European  Law,  in  the  absence of  specific  Treaty provision  on the right  of Self-determination for a European people without a Statein the territory of the EU, EU law does  not  forbid  the  exercise  of  its  Right  to  Decide  for  a  European  people  within  the  EU. There  are  even  numerous  Treaty  provisions  that  indicate  that  if  such  Right  were  to  be exercised,  EU  and  its  member  States  would  react  positively  to  a  new  European  State candidacy  to  join  the  EU.  Recent  and  consistent  practice  clearly  points  that  way.  Further, both  as  a  collectively  exercised  human  right  and  as  a  fundamental  norm  of  international Law, EU recognizes the Right to Decide.

6. As  regard  the  constitutionality  of  the  claim  for  the  Right  to  Decide, it  is  necessaryfrom  an  empirical  viewpoint,  and  fruitful  from  a  normative  one, togive  up  the  quest  for  a supreme  constitutional  interpreter. What  is  crucialin  a  constitutional  state that  is  faithful to the ambitions of constitutionalism isthe ongoing dialogue about, and engagement with, constitutional values and principles. Only this will make the constitution a living document, infused by the competing interpretations of values and principles that, by their very nature, admit various readings and conceptions. The quest for the final word is useless, illusory and possibly lethal from the political viewpoint of a healthy deliberative community.

7. In  that  respect,  the  debate  is  much  more open  than  what  one  might  think  at  first sight   by   examining   too   rapidly   the   basic   features   of   contemporary   constitutionalism, especially as it is illustrated by the Spanish constitutional system. Far from being disruptive of  the  constitutional  project  that was  adopted  in  1978,  the  Catalan  claim  to  the  Right  to Decide  on  its  political  future  precisely  testifies  to  a  genuine  commitment  to  the  ongoing constitutional dialogue that is legitimate in an open society.That is why simply dismissing this claim as “unconstitutional” cannot be an attitude that lives up to the high standard of political morality that is imposed by the ideal of constitutionalism.

8. Democratic  legitimacy  at  Catalan  and  Spanish  levels  may  both  be  legitimate,  even though  the  principle  of  external  preference  limits  the  capacity  of  Spain  to  permanently oppose the democratic choice of Catalonia. However, when conflicting political legitimacies compete,  there  is  a  duty  for  democratic  authorities  to  negotiate.  This  is  confirmed  by  the observation  ofinternational  practice  that  in  almost  all  instances,  the  sub-state  entity  and national state negotiate the contours of the assessment of political will.

9. Further,  in  a  genuine  liberal  democracy,  rule  of  law  may  not  trump  democratic legitimacy, nor the other way around; therefore, in a modern democratic State, rule of law and  democratic  legitimacy  need  to  be  reconciled and  cannot  in  the  long  term  remain opposed.  In  the  context  of  a  vote  of  self-determination,  as  is  the  case,  the  national framework  will  inevitably  be  inappropriate  because  the  existing  democratic  processes  to address the issue did not allow for a solution or a process to emerge. A change of scale thus appears necessary by justifying either locally or internationally(or both)the organization of a  referendum. If  Spanish  national  Authorities  deny  the  right  to  Catalonia  to  negotiate  its Right  to  Decide  within  the  Spanish  political  framework,  then  the  only  path  left  for Catalonia’s Authorities is the call for a self-determination referendum.

10.Thus, whatever the conflicting claims of legitimacy put forward by the political actors, international   practice   and   transconstitutional   jurisprudence   show   that   successful   self-determination  processes  always  rely  at  some  point  on  a  negotiation  procedure.  In  that perspective, the experts recommend the exploration of an earned sovereignty negotiating process  within  the  framework  of  the  EU.  This  would  imply  involvement  by  EU  institutions; we consider it possible in the perspective of a negotiation within the EU, fully implying Spain in seeking for Catalonia a constrained sovereignty solution, as a full member of the EU.
It's a strong point to say that a democratic State cannot simultaneously declare its legitimacy is based on democracy while attempting to deny democratic self-determination to a secession-minded part of its populace. Post-Brexit, the EU is much more likely to support this political fragmentation on the part of its member-states, since smaller microstates are far less likely to believe they can survive without being subject to the EU.

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78 Comments:

Blogger Giraffe September 14, 2017 1:02 PM  

Where does Jack Ward stand?

Anonymous a_peraspera September 14, 2017 1:11 PM  

There was no law against the US South seceding either.

Blogger Jack Ward September 14, 2017 1:21 PM  

I stand with Catalonia!

Blogger Tino September 14, 2017 1:21 PM  

Eurasia will be the end result over the next 20 years as dictated by London, Moscow and Beijing. The rest is noise on the way there.

Blogger seeingsights September 14, 2017 1:26 PM  

Hey, nationalists like us should pay attention to the Catalonia independence issue.
I support self-determination. The decentralization of government is a positive force for the world. In a decentralized world system, the costs of a bad policy would be more limited than other wise. Also, if a state is seen to pursue a good policy, other nations then can decide to do likewise.

Anonymous Ned Venison September 14, 2017 1:34 PM  

I'm not sure this matters as in the long run Spain will be a Muslim Country of Color as will most other European countries.

By the way Trump just got bitch slapped by Schumer. Enjoying all that winning?

Anonymous Gen. Kong September 14, 2017 1:36 PM  

There was no law against the US South seceding either.

That's true, and the Supreme Court never got to decide whether it was unconstitutional or not, thanks to hot-heads in the South and totalitarian notions about the Federal government held by Lincoln. To be fair to the old railroad-shyster from Illnoize, it should be noted that both the British and French Bankstein-owned empires had designs on Mexico - a violation of the Monroe doctrine - by the time he entered office (Mexico, being Mexican, wasn't paying the holders of its debts enough).

Back to the present, Antonio from Spain called this one a few threads back. It's a pincer movement by the Cloud People (those who must not be named or criticized in any way) to retain control over the European sector of their empire. The fake-nationalists of Catalonia are wanting their own spigot of fake-money from the EUSSR geld-sow, and this is a good move to allow a show of "independence" and "democracy" with no actual sovereignty over things that actually matter, like the importation of a Musloid invasion force. Fake independence for fake-nationalists to scam idiots who'll believe whatever lies are told. In order for Spain to keep this from happening, they would need to leave the EUSSR and NATO. They are ruled by a gang of treasonous criminals as well, so it will be interesting to see what spills out.

Blogger pyrrhus September 14, 2017 1:38 PM  

Catalonia's right is bolstered, in my opinion, by the fact that the language spoken there is Catalan, not Spanish. One of my kids attended the University of Barcelona for a year abroad deal (loved it), and all the courses are taught in Catalan. When we were in Barcelona , we enjoyed the uniqueness of the culture.

Blogger pyrrhus September 14, 2017 1:40 PM  

The main theory relied upon by Spain is simple--might makes right. Same with Abe Lincoln and the radical Republicans.

Blogger Rabbi B September 14, 2017 1:43 PM  

Jack Ward: Turning the world upside down...one stand at a time!

Blogger Nate September 14, 2017 1:43 PM  

"It's a strong point to say that a democratic State cannot simultaneously declare its legitimacy is based on democracy while attempting to deny democratic self-determination to a secession-minded part of its populace."

Amen brother.

Which is why we must let California go.

Pity that...

Blogger August September 14, 2017 1:48 PM  

There's still some semblance of a monarchy there.

Besides, aren't these Catalonians leftists? If they are leftists, they will always subvert the forms.

Blogger Nate September 14, 2017 1:50 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Jimmy The Freak September 14, 2017 1:54 PM  

Jack Ward wrote:I stand with Catalonia!

Me too! (As long as they are standing by the bar)

Blogger James Dixon September 14, 2017 2:03 PM  

> Which is why we must let California go.

It could be reasonably argued that we must let Californians go, but not California. The details of that get a bit iffy though.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash September 14, 2017 2:05 PM  

pyrrhus wrote:Catalonia's right is bolstered, in my opinion, by the fact that the language spoken there is Catalan, not Spanish.
Catalan is at most a dialect of Spanish. It's far closer to Castillian Spanish than Cuban Spanish is to Mexican Spanish.

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener September 14, 2017 2:12 PM  

As an outsider, it's difficult to care about Catalonia's desire for independence from Spain if they intend to reenter the EU as a puppet state.

Blogger rws September 14, 2017 2:13 PM  

Cleanup in Aisle....ummm. Ok, Just follow the smell.

Blogger Johnny September 14, 2017 2:14 PM  

I gather the EU doesn't like it but won't do much about it, and so it comes down to Spain. Unless the gov of Spain is somehow blocked by the courts, the detail character of the law will not play a major role.

I doubt the Europeans will change their current social policies until and unless there is a major blow up and some country goes all Islam all the time. That will be ruthless enough to get everybody's attention. And should Catalonia split off, they will be one candidate to go first. The sooner Islam rears its nasty conquest head the better because the longer it takes the worse it will be.

Blogger Demonic Professor El September 14, 2017 2:15 PM  

If Catalonia's entry into the EU makes it easier for other countries leave, then all for it.

Hungary, Poland, Greece, Slovakia may leave the EU, and soon.

In any case, the sooner the EU falls, the better.

Blogger J.M. September 14, 2017 2:19 PM  

Sorry, but if you choose to remain impervious to the facts, you have no one else to blame but you when someone else calls you ignorant and/or a bad-willed individual. If the Catalonians have case for succession, so do the Midwestern Estates, with their non-English majorities as well as the Southern border states of the US and so on and theirs are far more compelling...Catalonia's secession would be valid should they (the cowards behind the independentist movement)be willing to pay for all the infrastructure and fiscal perks that have been paid with the taxes of the rest of Spain as a precondition to their secession. After all are they are willing to go their own way don't they? This would be the only acceptable condition, but as someone else before said, they (The Spaniards) are being ruled by cowards, traitors and thieves. The rest of the article cited starts with lies and ends with even more outrageous lies for example:

The evolution of the negotiating process between the Catalan and Spanish governments since the re-establishment of democracy in 1977 through time has allowed us to identify key moments of a deteriorating political relationship where the Spanish government has gradually renounced the accommodation of Catalan territorial demands. The evolution of this relationship sheds a new light on the tortuous path towards the legally binding referendum on political independence to be held on the 1st October 2017.

Since the re-establishment of democracy the Spanish Central government, no matter what party was in power, has devoted itself to devise and implement ever more atrocious and scandalous ways to give more autonomy to the already autonomous areas, denigrate national heroes while lionizing "regional" heroes like the pro-islamist Blas Infante who was recently declared the "father of the Andalucian nation". As a matter of fact the presence of the Spanish state is almost nil in the case of Catalonia (while having their infrastructure and external security subsidized and allowing free movement of their goods within the rest of the country. All of this while enabling anti-hispanic immigration policies that favour Arabs and Pakistanis in lieu of Spaniards or Hispanics).

Sorry Vox but you can't or won't understand the situation there.

Anonymous Ominous Cowherd September 14, 2017 2:19 PM  

It's interesting that they see a constitution as a living document, in item 6.

Blogger Mocheirge September 14, 2017 2:21 PM  

Snidely Whiplash wrote:pyrrhus wrote:Catalonia's right is bolstered, in my opinion, by the fact that the language spoken there is Catalan, not Spanish.

Catalan is at most a dialect of Spanish. It's far closer to Castillian Spanish than Cuban Spanish is to Mexican Spanish.


Catalan is closer to Occitan than to Spanish.

Still, the whole plan of "secede from Spain, join EU" is moronic.

Blogger S1AL September 14, 2017 2:29 PM  

James Madison argued that, barring mutual agreement, the only recourse for a people seeking independence is Revolution.

Thus has it always been.

Blogger Ken Prescott September 14, 2017 2:29 PM  

That is a lot more debatable that Cataloniavs case, especially when you consider that more than once various worthies who later were all for secession made it very clear that any Northern state seceding over the Fugitive Slave Act would be dragged back into the Union at bayonet point, and Northern secessionists would be hanged as traitors.

They had a natural right of rebellion, they may or may not have had a legal right to secession, and they voted in favor of a perpetual Union before they voted against it.

Anonymous Steve September 14, 2017 2:31 PM  

Post-Brexit, the EU is much more likely to support this political fragmentation on the part of its member-states, since smaller microstates are far less likely to believe they can survive without being subject to the EU.

Dunno, Supreme Dark Lord. The Council of Ministers is still gonna take a pretty dim view, on account of the Frogs, Wops and those unspeakable Belgians facing down separatist movements of their own. The Parliament is probably more likely to sympathise with Catalunia, but that doesn't matter, as the European Parliament is just there for decoration and to co-opt politically minded EU subjects.

I'd say maybe 50/50 on the Commission. It would make strategic sense for them to support Catalan "independence", but they're still not showing any signs of having learned anything from Brexit. The EU's regional vision has long been about subverting the integrity of Member States to make them more digestible for the Eurobeast. Not creating new Member States - with all the additional voting rights and powers of derogation that implies.

Post Brexit, it does feel like more things are possible than were previously considered realistic though. I'd invest in popcorn futures.

Blogger Nate September 14, 2017 2:42 PM  

I'm gonna say 7/10 for all caps trolling. Needs more spittle.

Anonymous RobertL September 14, 2017 2:54 PM  

I wonder whether there was an eye on the situation in Scotland. The Commission would dearly love to screw with the UK by breaking up the Union on the grounds that rule of law and democratic legitimacy need to be reconciled and cannot in the long term remain opposed. The difference is that Scotland would have to initially be another cost to the EU (whereas Barcelona is a tax cow for Madrid) though future fiscal harmonisation to keep the Euro functioning would take care of that.

Blogger Chent September 14, 2017 2:55 PM  

As a Catalan, it's the plan of the globalist elite to create a lot of smaller nations to control better

Blogger Phat Repat September 14, 2017 3:06 PM  

My favorite point would be: Do it for the chidren!

Blogger Phat Repat September 14, 2017 3:08 PM  

After all, a terrible waste is a mind to thing!

Blogger SouthRon September 14, 2017 3:22 PM  

Chent wrote:As a Catalan, it's the plan of the globalist elite to create a lot of smaller nations to control better

People don't have trouble believing that when it's applied to Catalan, Scotland or some other country. But for some reason they seem unwilling to accept or believe it when applied to America.

I have argued for over 10 years, that the elites either want break up the US, or find it acceptable to their plans. We know from Obama's own mouth that The Constitution gets in the way of what they want to do. If you can't get a country to rewrite its constitution, then break the country into smaller, more controllable bite-sized pieces.

While I'd prefer to be in The South if this place breaks apart, I hate the idea that we could be playing into their hands.

Anonymous Steve September 14, 2017 3:24 PM  

Robert - Sure, but they're too late to use Scotland to their advantage (interestingly tho, the margin of victory for Leave would've been bigger sans Scotia). Also, the SNP doesn't really want another referendum because they'd just lose again.

Anonymous Mr. Rational September 14, 2017 3:24 PM  

Nate wrote:Which is why we must let California go.
And let Jefferson stay.

Of course, California minus US energy and water becomes a cleanup project within days.  There'd be a lot of real-estate damage but after the blood-suckers in SF and Malibu have been eaten by their dindu and Aztec pets (who themselves proceed to kick the bucket from tainted water), there will be no shortage of folks wanting to rebuild.  It IS a very nice place to live without the Mexicans there, after all.

Blogger James Dixon September 14, 2017 3:26 PM  

> ...and they voted in favor of a perpetual Union before they voted against it.

No one thought the union was perpetual. If they had they would never have agreed to it.

Anonymous Azimus September 14, 2017 3:31 PM  

If El Caudillo were here, he would know what to do...

Blogger Nate September 14, 2017 3:31 PM  

" ...and they voted in favor of a perpetual Union before they voted against it."

They took the word "perpetual" out of the constitution for a reason.

Blogger LP9 September 14, 2017 3:52 PM  

Wow, I hope Cal can win or succeed in their goals.

Blogger YIH September 14, 2017 3:53 PM  

Aw jeez, ALL CAPS, really?
That was considered full retard 20 years ago.

Blogger Ken Prescott September 14, 2017 4:01 PM  

And eleventy kajillion or so exclamation points.

And more references to the Freemasons, Illuminati, rotary-winged aircraft of color, and chemtrails.

Blogger Ken Prescott September 14, 2017 4:03 PM  

Go back and read the Articles of Confederation.

Anonymous Yann September 14, 2017 4:17 PM  

Catalonia's secession would be valid should they (the cowards behind the independentist movement)be willing to pay for all the infrastructure and fiscal perks that have been paid with the taxes of the rest of Spain as a precondition to their secession.

Catalonia is likely the wealthiest part of Spain set aside the capital. The economic balance has always favoured Spain. Catalonia has paid for each infrastructure built in their land, and then more.

denigrate national heroes while lionizing "regional" heroes like the pro-islamist Blas Infante who was recently declared the "father of the Andalucian nation"

Spain has ALWAYS denigrated their heroes. There was a commander from Cantabria who beat real hard English navy until they got him, paying a high toll both in men and ships. For decades English navy entering Santander lowered the flag as a sign of respect to him. In Spain, he had not even one statue. England showed more respect to that Spanish commander than Spain ever did.

Catalonia is praising their heroes, good for them. What Spain should do is praise theirs. But this is not how the Spanish character works: Spain is like a busybody who does nothing but constantly intrude in what other do.

As a matter of fact the presence of the Spanish state is almost nil in the case of Catalonia while having their infrastructure and external security subsidized

When you have these kind of statements, a good way to check the truth is to check who wants to be independent, and whether somebody opposes it heavily.

Imagine white people in US decided that they wanted to be independent from latinos and blacks. Would you think, for example, that black people would agree to part ways? Or would they burn down cities to make sure the keep the constant flow of income from whites to blacks?

If you wanna know who is living from other people, check who heavily opposes parting ways.

Blogger pyrrhus September 14, 2017 4:29 PM  

"They took the word "perpetual" out of the constitution for a reason."
Indeed, 3 of the States ratifying the Constitution (including NY) specifically reserved the right to leave. The others pointed out that it was unnecessary, since it was a voluntary union, and any State could obviously leave at any time.

Blogger DrAndroSF September 14, 2017 4:54 PM  

How much misery has been facilitated by not putting the obvious into writing. Such as not defining We The People,eh.

Blogger DonReynolds September 14, 2017 5:22 PM  

Catalonia's bid for independence was decided years ago by the Helsinki Accords of 1975....especially point VIII "Equal Rights and the Self-Determination of Peoples".

At the time, the Western nations thought the target of the Helsinki Accords was the Warsaw Pact nations of Eastern Europe, still occupied and dominated by the Soviet Union....and would remain so until the fall of the Soviet Union in December 1991.

What they failed to anticipate at the time was the persistence and tenacity of regional independence movements in their own nations....one of which we see now as Catalonia.

You will recall too, the actual fruit of the Helsinki Accords with the breakup of communist Yugoslavia into various republics in 1990-92, which included Bosnia, Serbia, Macedonia, Croatia, and Slovenia....birthplace of Melanija Knavs (Donald Trump's wife).

The Helsinki Accords....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helsinki_Accords


Blogger DonReynolds September 14, 2017 5:36 PM  

Any American (most especially New Englanders) who deny the right of any people to demand independence from their rulers....is denying the Declaration of Independence and the entire American Revolution. If a people do not have the right to govern themselves as they see fit and dissolve all bonds of obligation that tie them to their rulers, then you can say that any and every independence movement is wrong and without legitimate authority.
Go ahead.....I am watching.

Either the American Revolution is invalid and we must return to being governed by London instead or the Revolutionaries were within their rights to determine their own government and form an independent nation.

Anonymous Brick Hardslab September 14, 2017 6:24 PM  

Is this just a stealth way to get a Muslim nation in the west of Europe?

Anonymous NobodyExpects September 14, 2017 6:32 PM  

"It's a strong point to say that a democratic State cannot simultaneously declare its legitimacy is based on democracy while attempting to deny democratic self-determination to a secession-minded part of its populace."

It seems, then, that there is no democratically legitimate state on Earth, Canada, and the UK excepted.

Those two exceptions have peculiar, historical circumstances that justify that, like the different origin of Quebec, or the facts surrounding the Act of Union of 1707.

In Canada case, they have their Clarity Act, that curbed quite a bit the Quebec desires for referendums. Stéphane Dion, the writer of that act, was not so long ago in Catalonia explaining that there were substantial differences between Quebec and Catalonia.

See (in Spanish): https://politica.elpais.com/politica/2017/07/22/actualidad/1500733917_804383.html

Anonymous Anonymous September 14, 2017 7:14 PM  

I'm not a priori opposed to individual nationalities seceding from their parent states, but I have to say that such a fragmentation would be a very bad thing for Europe. The European States are weak as it is; in fact, they hardly look like sovereign states at all any more. Of course, this is intentional: the Eurocratic ideal is to subsume all those states into a single homogeneous blob controlled by an unelected elite.

The more the original states fragment, the harder it becomes to even think of reconstructing them, and the more difficult it becomes to mount any opposition to the anti-western multicultural Eurocrat elites.

So I'm sorry, but no Catatonia for you.

Anonymous Anonymous September 14, 2017 7:15 PM  

Südtirol next.

Anonymous zebedee September 14, 2017 7:27 PM  

Meh, I suspect that the Catalan voters are about as keen on real independence as the Quebecois and the Scots Nats. What they really wamt is the illusion of independence while keeping all the perks of union with the rest of Spain.

Blogger J.M. September 14, 2017 8:46 PM  

@Yann, your whole post belies your ignorance of the situation on the ground or your bad will against Spain. The latter would be completely unsurprising. Now on to the point: Catalonia has been part of the Kingdom of Spain long before any Englishman even dreamt of leaving Britain for America. And Unlike the "Union" of Scotland or Ireland to the English Crown, such an arrangement was entirely voluntary. Now let's go to debunk your points.

Yann wrote:Catalonia is likely the wealthiest part of Spain set aside the capital. The economic balance has always favoured Spain. Catalonia has paid for each infrastructure built in their land, and then more.



Well, I will just put the link here but your talking point has been debunked numerous times. Granted, Catalonia is one of the engines that drive Spanish economy, but guess what: Many if not most of the infrastructure that made Catalonia what it was has been built by the Central government which has used all kinds of stimulus and even invested up to 1% of its GDP in the 18th century in order to ensure Catalonia's monopoly over the cotton trade and ensure the prosperity of the region(statement made by Torrella, a catalonian economic historian, you can google it. By the way here's the link: https://www.libremercado.com/2015-09-15/el-balance-de-30-anos-de-nacionalismo-catalan-en-cifras-1276556939/

Here's an interesting quote: "The problem is that numbers don't fit. In 1980, after decades of oppressive Centralized government, Catalonia was one of the wealthiest regions of Spain (along withe the Basque countries) and much more wealthier than Madrid. Since then, while nationalist politicians hoarded power, jurisdiction and resources, their region underwent an impoverishment in comparison to the rest of Spain. After three decades of nationalism, the Catalonian economy has undergone marked deterioration compared to Madrid's Commonwealth you can check the rest...if you can read Spanish that is.

Yann wrote:When you have these kind of statements, a good way to check the truth is to check who wants to be independent, and whether somebody opposes it heavily.

Imagine white people in US decided that they wanted to be independent from latinos and blacks. Would you think, for example, that black people would agree to part ways? Or would they burn down cities to make sure the keep the constant flow of income from whites to blacks?


I guess your response stems from bad will and ignorance. As I said in a previous post, Catalonia's situation has nothing to do with your mythology of a glorious revolution and everything to do with deceit, conspiracy, outright lies that repeated a thousand times become "Truths" in the minds of the indoctrinated and connivance with a traitorous central Government.

The situation is way more akin to a hypothetical scenario where Midwestern state governments started at first sponsoring the learning of German, Norwegian, Swedish or Dutch and later on, the displacement of English from primary education in lieu of those languages, not only from the schools but from the Media, the street signs and even state official documents. At the same time, libels and a false history where the English are depicted as oppressors while German, Swedish or Dutch immigrants are the oppressed are spread in the public discourse and taught at school. Imagine that while all of this happens across your country, Washington insisted on more subsidies and appeasement to the "nationalist" parties of Illinois, South Dakota, Nebraska, etc. Well that's the situation in Spain.

I hope the readers from your country can understand it.




Blogger Ezekiel September 14, 2017 11:02 PM  

Chent wrote:As a Catalan, it's the plan of the globalist elite to create a lot of smaller nations to control better
This may well be true, but I'm not sure if it matters. It's almost like the Germans in WWI thinking it was a good idea to bankroll Lenin and Friends; they built a fire that eventually consumed them too...

(Hey Vox, ask Anglin to knaw on that one next time you have an opportunity to talk to him.)

Question: does anyone think the Catalans would ever be willing to pull an ETA and fight for their independence? Is their any chance of victory should they try it?

Blogger Ezekiel September 14, 2017 11:13 PM  

J.M. wrote
The situation is way more akin to a hypothetical scenario where Midwestern state governments started at first sponsoring the learning of German, Norwegian, Swedish or Dutch and later on, the displacement of English from primary education in lieu of those languages, not only from the schools but from the Media, the street signs and even state official documents. At the same time, libels and a false history where the English are depicted as oppressors while German, Swedish or Dutch immigrants are the oppressed are spread in the public discourse and taught at school. Imagine that while all of this happens across your country, Washington insisted on more subsidies and appeasement to the "nationalist" parties of Illinois, South Dakota, Nebraska, etc. Well that's the situation in Spain.

It's called the Alaska Independence Party. They're actually pretty cool, though.

Anonymous reactionaryguy September 14, 2017 11:24 PM  

Catalonians want to part of EU does that sound like independance?

Which part of Spain is more leftist? (I dont know).

This will give more power to Germany and France in the EU would it not?

Blogger Ezekiel September 14, 2017 11:25 PM  

...I'm not (entirely) joking about the AKIP; one argument I've heard for why Alaska is not a legitimate US state is that the referendum on statehood was only written in English when it should have been in English, Russian, the various Inuit languages and the languages of the many first-generation European immigrants who were living in Alaska in 1959. They may have a point on this.

As for subsidies, I'm sure the Feds would take one look at their infrastructure should something like this ever get off the ground and tell them that "you didn't build that." They may also have a point.

Anonymous reactionaryguy September 14, 2017 11:32 PM  

Demonic Professor El wrote:If Catalonia's entry into the EU makes it easier for other countries leave, then all for it.

Hungary, Poland, Greece, Slovakia may leave the EU, and soon.

In any case, the sooner the EU falls, the better.


The Visegrad Group is pro EU.
They are euroskeptic (not anti-eu).

They want a different EU and thats it.
They love the money they get. (though the debt is growing).
Conservative minded people mostly, supported by US and the Catholic Church.

The version of EU they want is similar to Pan Europa (concept of Habsburgs, Kalergi) which had Christian elements (including the flag).

Today EU is clearly anti Christian.

Blogger Ezekiel September 14, 2017 11:44 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Ezekiel September 14, 2017 11:46 PM  

reactionaryguy wrote:Catalonians want to part of EU does that sound like independance?

So what? The EU is designed to vampirize any economy that isn't France or Germany and in a few years they'll want out every bit as bad the Greeks or English do, assuming it doesn't collapse under its own weight long beforehand.

Which part of Spain is more leftist? (I dont know).

I can only speak anecdotally, but the impression I get is that Catalonia is "leftist" in the same way that Quebec is: more "Das Kapital" than "Dildo Up Ass." (Anyone remember Jacques Parizeau stating that "money and ethnic votes" had lost them their independence vote?) They both lead to collapse but at least when your government or economy collapses you can replace it for something else. Let your people collapse and the only people who care about your economy are the archeologists.

And for what its worth, I think a lot of (fiscal) socialists, like a lot of libertarians, are starting to realize that European-style economy only works when you have European-style population.


This will give more power to Germany and France in the EU would it not?


Germany probably so, France probably not since they have plenty of their own secessionists to deal with.

Blogger Ezekiel September 14, 2017 11:52 PM  

reactionaryguy wrote:Demonic Professor El wrote:If Catalonia's entry into the EU makes it easier for other countries leave, then all for it.

Hungary, Poland, Greece, Slovakia may leave the EU, and soon.

In any case, the sooner the EU falls, the better.


The Visegrad Group is pro EU.

They are euroskeptic (not anti-eu).

They want a different EU and thats it.

They love the money they get. (though the debt is growing).

Conservative minded people mostly, supported by US and the Catholic Church.

The version of EU they want is similar to Pan Europa (concept of Habsburgs, Kalergi) which had Christian elements (including the flag).

Today EU is clearly anti Christian.

Kind of odd, considering how Europhillic the remnants of the actual Hapsburg monarchy tend to be...

Has Alexander Dugin ever commented on that? It sounds like something that he would either absolutely love or absolutely despise.

Anonymous reactionaryguy September 14, 2017 11:59 PM  

I get the impression that the monarchs tend to support EU. Why? Because they are mixed Europeans by ancestry. They dont care about borders much.
Lets remember the Hasburgs had influence in many countries.
Catholic Strong states included Hungary-Austria
and Polish-Lithuanian (both were multiethnic).

All I know is that Dugin is anti liberal (which is the EU).
He is supportive of the Eurasia group.

Anonymous Yann September 15, 2017 2:41 AM  

Yann, your whole post belies your ignorance of the situation on the ground or your bad will against Spain. The latter would be completely unsurprising.

First sentence... insults. But you know what? After debating with SJWs, you become immune someway. That's the problem with overusing something.

Now on to the point: Catalonia has been part of the Kingdom of Spain long before any Englishman even dreamt of leaving Britain for America

So what? Had somebody been with you, that doesn't mean that he has the obligation to stay with you no matter what. Catalonia don't want to stay with Spain anymore.

Granted, Catalonia is one of the engines that drive Spanish economy, but guess what: Many if not most of the infrastructure that made Catalonia what it was has been built by the Central government

Of course they have been built by the Central Government... with money from taxes paid in Catalonia!!!

Indeed, with less than the taxes paid in Catalonia, because the balance favors Spain.

Dear God...

Here's an interesting quote: "The problem is that numbers don't fit. In 1980, after decades of oppressive Centralized government, Catalonia was one of the wealthiest regions of Spain (along withe the Basque countries) and much more wealthier than Madrid. Since then, while nationalist politicians hoarded power, jurisdiction and resources, their region underwent an impoverishment in comparison to the rest of Spain. After three decades of nationalism, the Catalonian economy has undergone marked deterioration compared to Madrid's Commonwealth

So what? Of course the path to independence is taking a toll. Problems are bad for business, and becoming independent of Spain is a very tough path. But the thing is: Catalan and Basque people are WILLLING to pay that toll to have their own country and not to be ruled by Spaniards.

And that's indeed a powerful indicator that the desire for independence is not a whim, but a essential claim.

I guess your response stems from bad will and ignorance.

And more insults, like any usual SJW.

As I said in a previous post, Catalonia's situation has nothing to do with your mythology of a glorious revolution and everything to do with deceit, conspiracy, outright lies

As it happens in the Basque Country, it has to be with people that want to be independent and not to be ruled by Spain. Just that. It's not mythology, it's not conspiracy, it's not a glorious revolution (because it's not about political systems but about the independence of nations), it's simply put, a nation that wants to be independent.

Blogger Ezekiel September 15, 2017 3:54 AM  

reactionaryguy wrote:I get the impression that the monarchs tend to support EU. Why? Because they are mixed Europeans by ancestry. They dont care about borders much.

Lets remember the Hasburgs had influence in many countries.

Catholic Strong states included Hungary-Austria

and Polish-Lithuanian (both were multiethnic).

All I know is that Dugin is anti liberal (which is the EU).

He is supportive of the Eurasia group.

Yeah... as much as I've been tempted to admire monarchy, I can't help shake the impression that they were the original transnational progressives and for the most part still are. So I'm in the weird position of liking the institution but disliking most of the people who are a part of it.

Know who else seemed to feel that way? HITLER felt that way!!! Does this make me Fake Right, then?

Blogger Mackus September 15, 2017 4:45 AM  

Catalonia is gonna secede successfully.
You know why?
Because Spanish government isn't using even tenth of the violent force its uses to fight "intolerance" to stop them from seceding.

They didn't even arrest members of Catalonia government, despite insisting that the independence vote is illegal. Instead they're trying something as pathetic as cutting off power from polling stations. Madrid fights a fight they're determined to lose. It's signalling it has no willpower to stop Catalonia.

Blogger SirGroggy September 15, 2017 6:49 AM  

Counter-argument:

What is the point, when the differences between a Catalonian and a Castilian are irrelevant when put in contrast with the difference between ANY WESTERNER and one of these third world migrants????

???? !!!!

Now is not the time for these petty disputes, say I! Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of the West. We can sort out Catalonia, Wales and things like that when all the migrants have gone back - until then, it's an utter anachronism!!!

Blogger SirGroggy September 15, 2017 6:56 AM  

Another way of putting it is, it's a vanity and a conceit, and we shall watch and applaud and pat ourselves on the back for seeing Catalonia to their independence. Well done.

But the moor does not care. The moors are barbarians, and the barbarians are inside the gates.

It does not matter what flags you fly over your castle when the barbarians are inside the gates.

REARRANGING THE DECK CHAIRS ON THE TITANIC.

Forget the deck chairs. Stop this naval gazing, this narcissism of small differences, and deal with the damn iceberg dead ahead!!!! !!!!

Blogger Galahad78 September 15, 2017 7:25 AM  

I wouldn't be surprised if these "European Legal experts"'s report has been paid with public taxes (my taxes, btw) for the only benefit of Catalonian separatists. It is just a step further from buying "expert" articles in New York Times, Wall Street Journal and other European media.

Blogger J.M. September 15, 2017 8:41 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger J.M. September 15, 2017 8:48 AM  

@Yann, thank you for doubling down and lying all the way like every SJW. I am not insulting you by the way, I just described the origins of your post, ignorance and bad will, something you confirmed. As I said before Catalonia wants independence but wants to have it paid for by Spain and the EU, their leaders are cowards and would never have dared to embark in such an endeavour unless they were sure it posed no risk to their "precious" lives or wealth. As a matter of fact they have increased their wealth as a result of the process. By the way, as the article and many more you could find on the internet (most of them in Spanish btw but some in English and a post here as well) have already proven beyond doubt most of the taxes are not from Catalonia and Spain has invested since before your country existed in order to prop the region (facts confirmed even by serious Catalonian historians like Torrella). Since you can't even read Spanish without a Google translator and more importantly, you would never bother to check your facts, your source are mainstream news and second hand ideas...

Yann wrote:So what? Of course the path to independence is taking a toll. Problems are bad for business, and becoming independent of Spain is a very tough path. But the thing is: Catalan and Basque people are WILLLING to pay that toll to have their own country and not to be ruled by Spaniards.

Reading comprehension lacking. If you bother to read even the paragraph and check the stats you'd notice that the economic deterioration has nothing to do with any imaginary toll and everything to do with leaders that want their own Estate, far away from any fiscal vigilance...but never mind you are another willful ignoramus whose mind is wrapped up in his own mythology.

Yann wrote:As it happens in the Basque Country, it has to be with people that want to be independent and not to be ruled by Spain. Just that. It's not mythology, it's not conspiracy, it's not a glorious revolution (because it's not about political systems but about the independence of nations), it's simply put, a nation that wants to be independent.

Well, I guess mythology and "feeeeeeeeelingz" win over facts and even the well being of the persons. Just like every other SJW.

Blogger J.M. September 15, 2017 8:52 AM  

Ezekiel wrote:I can only speak anecdotally, but the impression I get is that Catalonia is "leftist" in the same way that Quebec is: more "Das Kapital" than "Dildo Up Ass." (Anyone remember Jacques Parizeau stating that "money and ethnic votes" had lost them their independence vote?) They both lead to collapse but at least when your government or economy collapses you can replace it for something else. Let your people collapse and the only people who care about your economy are the archeologists.

Well, in my experience and based on what I can read about the situation on the ground, it's both. They want a dildo back there while applying all the economic mumbo jumbo found in Das Kapital. Did I forget to mention they have the highest number of Muslims (Arabs and even Pakistanis) because their immigration policies give preference to non-spanish speaking peoples, preferably of the "oppressed" variety? Maybe their "independence" is the shock the rest of the Spaniards need to save themselves from their traitorous government and the EU. Who knows.

Blogger J.M. September 15, 2017 8:53 AM  

Mackus wrote:Catalonia is gonna secede successfully.

You know why?

Because Spanish government isn't using even tenth of the violent force its uses to fight "intolerance" to stop them from seceding.

They didn't even arrest members of Catalonia government, despite insisting that the independence vote is illegal. Instead they're trying something as pathetic as cutting off power from polling stations. Madrid fights a fight they're determined to lose. It's signalling it has no willpower to stop Catalonia.



Exactly.

Anonymous NobodyExpects September 15, 2017 9:17 AM  

There have been allegations of being a SJW made against a person that was for unity of Spain.

One wonders which side in this conflict has the most SJWs. My apologies for using sources in Spanish, but Goolag Translate does a passable work translating to English.

Catalan regional government was favoring Moroccan, muslim immigrants because they were more receptive to learn the Catalan language. Immigrants from the former Spanish America felt less comfortable, as their mother tongue, Spanish, was discriminated. And not only poor immigrants - little sister of FC Barcelona star Leo Messi decided to go back to Argentina because she could not understand Catalan, the language she was forced to use at school.

(Source: http://politica.e-noticies.es/mi-hermana-lloraba-si-le-hablaban-en-catalan-29038.html).

The killer of Las Ramblas was a Muslim Separatist of Moroccan origin, the preferred immigrant ethnicity of the Catalan separatists.

That shameful demonstration of August, 26th., after the Las Ramblas attacks, in which there was not any reference to the victims, but a lot of signs against "islamophobia", was organized by the same outfit that uses to organize the 9-11 demonstration of the regional feast day.

Seems clear in which side the SJWs are in this aspect.

Saint John Paul II, a Pope not suspect of being a Churchian in any way, was not liked by Jordi Pujol Soley, the historical patriarch of Catalan Separatist, because the great Pope did not agree in Catalonia being a nation, and was reluctant to use the Catalan language.

(Source: http://infocatolica.com/blog/germinans.php/0910201130-jordi-pujol-me-dolio-la-frial)

Perhaps one does not need to be a SJW to be against St. John Paul II, but it should be unusual to be against and not being one.

There are others similar positions that could help to clear how much SJW-ish is every side implied in the Catalan Secession drama.

Anonymous Yann September 15, 2017 4:48 PM  

Catalan regional government was favoring Moroccan, muslim immigrants because they were more receptive to learn the Catalan language. Immigrants from the former Spanish America felt less comfortable, as their mother tongue, Spanish, was discriminated.

While this is true, and it's something that Catalonia must fix, that shouldn't change the path for independence.

US is taking Muslims and open gates to immigrants. Mexico, on the contrary, is far more protective and don't let people enter the country as easy as Americans do. Should US give up its independence and become part of Mexico?

I don't think that Americans would like to be part of Mexico, no matter how much they disagree with the current flow of immigration in US. The same happens with Catalonia and the Basque Country: while many people disagree with the immigration policies, that doesn't mean that they want to be part of Spain.

Blogger xavier September 16, 2017 12:02 AM  

No It's not. There are significant differences in both languages that they're certainly not dialects

. Further 500 years of linguistic domination has caused some words and strictures to be incorporated onto Catalan but they're regarded as unnecedsary interferences and treated as such

Blogger xavier September 16, 2017 12:07 AM  

I'M
O really like the central goat's deliberate underfunding of Catalunya for the past 30 years and the obstinate refusal to build the Mediterrean corridor rail system.
The Spanish govt has been ripping off Catalunya and have admitted it on several occasions.
Nothing's changed since the Second republic The Spanish simply can't abide by the Catalans having any political agency

Blogger xavier September 16, 2017 12:15 AM  

Golly given the last time they out Catalan govt in jail (in 1934) Things didn't work that well. It created a great deal of mistrust between the republicans and was a small cause of Franco winning

Blogger gdfbdf September 16, 2017 7:10 AM  

Catalonia will succed, sooner or later

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