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Thursday, September 07, 2017

Self-determination in Spain

I wonder if the USA will intervene as energetically on behalf of the independence-seeking Catalans as it has on behalf of others who have successfully pursued self-determination:
Spanish prosecutors said on Thursday they would bring criminal charges against members of Catalonia’s parliament, as Madrid moved to crush the region’s plans for an independence referendum.

Separately, Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy said he had appealed to Spain’s Constitutional Court to declare the referendum illegal. The 1978 constitution states Spain is indivisible. “This vote will never take place,” he told a news conference. “In making the appeal, we are defending the rights of all Spaniards and all Catalans.”

A majority of Catalonia’s parliament voted on Wednesday to hold the Oct. 1 referendum, in an acrimonious session in which mainstream political parties left the chamber before the vote and pro-independence lawmakers sang the Catalan anthem.

The Constitutional Court has yet to rule on the matter but it declared a 2014 vote on independence illegal. The state prosecutor-general, Jose Manuel Maza, told reporters he had also asked the security forces to investigate any preparations by the Catalan government to hold the referendum. These could involve printing leaflets or preparing polling stations.
There is an air of unreality surrounding the entire affair. But really, if the Catalans genuinely want independence, why should they not have it? The Spanish government doesn't appear to understand that it is calling its own democratic legitimacy into question.

Let's face it, no one wants another Spanish civil war. The crazy thing is that an independent Catalonia would almost certainly turn around and demand admittance to the EU.

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87 Comments:

Anonymous Looking Glass September 07, 2017 1:32 PM  

The Catalonia's haven't seen the most competent at this, but they are serious. Though groups suddenly having to take responsibility for themselves could be an interesting aspect in the future.

One of the deeper issues with Global Institutions, like the EU, is that no one is actually responsible locally. The US Congress is explaining this in real-time.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents September 07, 2017 1:34 PM  

There is an air of unreality surrounding the entire affair.

It makes me miss Umberto Eco.

But really, if the Catalans genuinely want independence, why should they not have it?

Get what they say they want, good and hard? As I understand it, Catalonia is probably subsidized by the rest of Spain. Like Scotland it's not really all that capable of independence. But this action from Madrid plays right into the hands of those who have been milking "independienca soon! Not now, but soon!" for years.

The Spanish government doesn't appear to understand that it is calling its own democratic legitimacy into question.

There's a lot of that going around. Not just in Europe, either.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents September 07, 2017 1:36 PM  

@1
The Catalonia's haven't seen the most competent at this, but they are serious. Though groups suddenly having to take responsibility for themselves could be an interesting aspect in the future.

A form of shock therapy. Like a homeowners association deciding to take over the water & sewer systems, then finding out what that really means.

Anonymous Ages September 07, 2017 1:37 PM  

Any territory that desires independence and expresses that desire democratically should be able to have it. Whether that's Texas or California or Scotland or Catalonia.

Blogger Sam Spade September 07, 2017 1:40 PM  

"Let's face it, no one wants another Spanish civil war. The crazy thing is that an independent Catalonia would almost certainly turn around and demand admittance to the EU."

I confirm they have said it a lot of times . They want to become a EU state once the get the independence.

The cuckservative govern has used catalonian separatists as useful antagonist to justify their existence and to get reluctant votes from a lot of people tired of their corruption, incompetence and treason managing immigration.

Of course the catalonian nationalists have used the govern party for the same deception intents. Because if people knew the truth and not propaganda, they should be hanging from lamposts.


I'm from Madrid and I don't care if they vote self-determination.

A shame for all the good people living there. Between central and regional government they have almost destroyed it.

The rest of Spain is not much better. But at least no region has as many muslims as Catalonia, not even close. There are more than half million muslims living there.

Please wake up or become Qatarlunya.

Anonymous Gen. Kong September 07, 2017 1:48 PM  

It's fake independence from a fake Spain (which is really just another Okrug of EUSSR). Fake is truly the essence of the present age.

Anonymous Brick Hardslab September 07, 2017 1:54 PM  

Don't the Basque have a better claim to independence?

Blogger seeingsights September 07, 2017 1:57 PM  

Catalonians have developed a distinct identity--the Catalonian language has been taught in the schools there for example.
There are also separatists in Quebec. Quebec is bi-lingual (French and English).

Perhaps it should be added to Alt-Right philosophy: a nation state may mandate that only one language shall be used.

In the US, the use of Spanish is tolerated. That will increase the chances of separatism in the US.

Blogger Nate September 07, 2017 2:12 PM  

well the fact that they want to join the EU is enough to say that they really don't want self-determination. They just want new german masters.

Blogger dc.sunsets September 07, 2017 2:20 PM  

This still has a street theater feel. Should the nations' of the world debt burdens suddenly matter, the effort to bolt, leaving others on the hook will be EPIC.

Anonymous Lara Mycroft September 07, 2017 2:23 PM  

@8: Perhaps it should be added to Alt-Right philosophy: a nation state may mandate that only one language shall be used.

It doesn't need to be "added." It's already there.

Anonymous Jeff September 07, 2017 2:23 PM  

Nate - well the fact that they want to join the EU is enough to say that they really don't want self-determination. They just want new german masters.

Same with the Scots. Left wing nationalists are bad nationalists.

Blogger Antonio From Spain September 07, 2017 2:25 PM  

7. "Don't the Basque have a better claim to independence?"

Because the founder of the Basque capital city was Castilian? But I know what you mean. I already mentioned months ago that the Basque Nationalist Party is keeping very, very quiet about all this. As I've explained in previous posts here, this has nothing to do with a grassroots movement for independence.

These "independentist" Catalan leaders have imported 1 million Muslims in the last two decades, in a region that has a population of 6 million in 1992. Some people think it is a great idea to give these politicians even more political power.

https://voxday.blogspot.com/2017/06/catalonia-to-hold-referendum.html

Blogger Antonio From Spain September 07, 2017 2:26 PM  

6. "It's fake independence from a fake Spain (which is really just another Okrug of EUSSR). Fake is truly the essence of the present age."

The Muslim invasion behind all this is not at all fake.

Blogger Antonio From Spain September 07, 2017 2:31 PM  

Vox, you say "The Spanish government doesn't appear to understand that it is calling its own democratic legitimacy into question."

What happened yesterday violates not only several national Spanish laws but also the Catalan laws approved by the Catalan parliament.

Anonymous Ryan ATL September 07, 2017 2:34 PM  

Real Madrid is a much better team at the moment anyway.

Blogger mark auld September 07, 2017 2:39 PM  

It's that not so fake Muslim invasion that's the real issue.

Blogger Mats September 07, 2017 2:42 PM  

"Left wing nationalists are bad nationalists."

The best way to control the opposition is to lead it.

The same thing happened in Canada where "nationalists" pretended to "fight" the globalists. One day they woke up and had Castro's alleged bastard son as PM.

Anonymous Johnny Mayonnaise September 07, 2017 2:49 PM  

@4: "Any territory that desires independence and expresses that desire democratically should be able to have it. Whether that's Texas or California or Scotland or Catalonia."

I applaud your idealism, but if Texas voted to secede from the Union, the national government would likely deem the secession a threat to national security and would roll the tanks.

Anonymous Gen. Kong September 07, 2017 2:56 PM  

Antonio from Espana:
The Muslim invasion behind all this is not at all fake.

That's very true. You'll also note that the importation of an occupation army is not up for a vote in either the fake-Spanish regime or the proposed fake-Catalonian one. Like the Scottish National Party, these bozos are fake-nationalists. They just want their own teat suck to suck for fake-lucre from the EUSSR's kosher sow instead of taking what the fake-Spaniards offer them. Kim-Jong Crazy is more independent than any nominal nation in the EUSSR. Nukes which can be delivered to (((banking centers))) can make you free, even if you are China's junkyard dog.

Blogger Antonio From Spain September 07, 2017 3:00 PM  

20. Obviously.

Anonymous Jeff September 07, 2017 3:04 PM  

The same thing happened in Canada where "nationalists" pretended to "fight" the globalists. One day they woke up and had Castro's alleged bastard son as PM.

Proof

Blogger Ingot9455 September 07, 2017 3:08 PM  

Worth it if we get another Pan's Labyrinth movie out of it.

Blogger Sam Spade September 07, 2017 3:12 PM  

The people behind this separatist movement has done more damage than anyone to Cataluña over the years, and the new nationalist leftist parties are in their way to finish the job.

They are not loyal to Catalonian people at all. Like Antonio has said they have imported massive amounts of Moroccans and other muslim invaders in purpose, their corruption is also notable.

Also is very curious that several separatist leaders like Gabriel Rufián and Ana Gabriel are fake Catalonians, they are Spanish invaders from Andalussia. I wonder if they have to go back.

I don't think what is happening there is an organic phenomenon.

If the people there really want the independence and don't feel Spanish, fine. But let's get the facts right about the situation there. It's normal, but I read a lot of misinformation in the comments here.

For me the best solution is that they make a binding vote once and for all to clarify the reality.

Blogger Cataline Sergius September 07, 2017 3:28 PM  

The crazy thing is that an independent Catalonia would almost certainly turn around and demand admittance to the EU.

I'd read a while back that the EU was saying, NO in advance to Catalonia.

That Brussels doesn't want a bunch of tiny basket case countries siphoning off the Euro.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash September 07, 2017 3:36 PM  

Cataline Sergius wrote:That Brussels doesn't want a bunch of tiny basket case countries siphoning off the Euro.
If I were in charge, there's no way I'd admit them. Then again, were I in charge, I would never admit Spain or Portugal. And I'd be pretty wary about Italy.

Blogger DonReynolds September 07, 2017 3:36 PM  

Perhaps it would be worthwhile to look up whether Spain signed the Helsinki Accords. According to the internet, every European nation signed the Helsinki Final Act on the last day of the conference, except Albania, August 1st, 1975.

The Helsinki Accords affirmed the right of all people to self-determination. In the minds of Western diplomats, this was directed at the Warsaw Pact nations of Eastern Europe and did not include separatist movements in their own countries, but the principle is by no means different. Do people have the right to self-determination and does that mean they have a right to govern themselves. The US Declaration of Independence says they do.

In a Federal system, the right of self-determination seems to have more currency than simple insurgency.

Texas was part of a Federal Mexico for years after independence from Spain. It was only when Mexico abolished the Federal system in favor of a Central Government that Texas declared independence from Mexico and fought a war.

The Confederate states of the South continued under the Federal Union for almost 90 years until the Republican party took over the Federal government and attempted to govern all the states from Washington. We have the same rumbling today about the shift in the Federal system to one of Central Government, where everything becomes a "Federal matter", that was never Federal in the past....such as marriage licenses and toilet assignment.

Blogger Sam Spade September 07, 2017 3:40 PM  

@26 "If I were in charge, there's no way I'd admit them. Then again, were I in charge, I would never admit Spain or Portugal. And I'd be pretty wary about Italy."

It's a shame you weren't in charge when they admitted us into the EU.

Blogger Antonio From Spain September 07, 2017 3:42 PM  

If I were in charge, I'd only admit Turkey.

Anonymous krymneth September 07, 2017 3:43 PM  

"What happened yesterday violates not only several national Spanish laws but also the Catalan laws approved by the Catalan parliament."

Democratic legitimacy underwrites those laws.

Anonymous Überdeplorable Psychedelic Cat Grass September 07, 2017 3:46 PM  

(Outsider's opinion based on outdated '08 views from my semester in Spain) I'm against it because it would negatively affect catalans I know that want no part in it. That said, if these fools really do want to do it go ahead. Let's see how many people relocate to Valencia or Castilla La-Mancha.

To the Spaniards: if you guys want to get rid of PP, IU, n PSOE once and for all, what is the view on the ground for Felipe II's chances to become an absolute monarch? ¡VIZCAYA ESPAÑA!

Blogger Antonio From Spain September 07, 2017 3:48 PM  

Felipe VI

Blogger Antonio From Spain September 07, 2017 3:54 PM  

31. People in Spain who would favor more power for the monarch are a very tiny minority and do not support Felipe VI's dynasty (see Carlismo).

Anonymous Überdeplorable Psychedelic Cat Grass September 07, 2017 3:54 PM  

Sorry for screwing up the number. I had a chance after my second bullfight at Ventas to go to one where Juan Carlos was gonna attend...never did though.

Speaking of Moors is Tetuán still full of them? My landlord there was from Cuenca and hated them. He loved renting to Americans and Europeans though. Also I miss mazopan and tapas.

Ok, rant done.

Blogger Sam Spade September 07, 2017 3:54 PM  

Felipe VI is a sellout, or in the best case an useless king only worried to maintain monarchy 1 more year, by the genius strategy of not angering leftists or republican politicians.

Blogger Tatooine Sharpshooters' Club September 07, 2017 3:58 PM  

If Madrid were to allow thiss, it would 1444 in Iberia in short order: the Basque country would be sprinting for the door, and much of southern Spain is none to keen on rule from Madrid.

The EU would definitely have to refuse to allow Catalonia in. They may even have to consider refusing to recognize them at all, or risk feeding nascent but still strong separatist trends in Italy and Germany, both nations whose unification is fairly recent in historical terms.

Local devolution is becoming all the rage, all over the world!

Blogger Sam Spade September 07, 2017 4:00 PM  

@34 "Speaking of Moors is Tetuán still full of them? My landlord there was from Cuenca and hated them."

If you refer to Tetuán neighborhood in Madrid, now that's almost a South American ghetto. There are also a lot of moors because there is a Mosque in the area.

That area is not Spain anymore. A very troublesome zone right now.

Anonymous Napoleon 12pdr September 07, 2017 4:01 PM  

"I wonder if the USA will intervene as energetically on behalf of the independence-seeking Catalans as it has on behalf of others who have successfully pursued self-determination."

Depends on who's offering basing rights. :-)

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents September 07, 2017 4:01 PM  

@29 Sam Spade
If I were in charge, I'd only admit Turkey.

No! That would be almost as bad as admitting Tunisia or Egypt.

Blogger Antonio From Spain September 07, 2017 4:06 PM  

36. "Basque country would be sprinting for the door" is that the reason why the Basque Nationalist party is supporting the party that is ruling Spain?

Blogger Kristophr September 07, 2017 4:07 PM  

Can we get the EU to admit New York and California?

After we remove the red counties, of course.

Blogger Antonio From Spain September 07, 2017 4:07 PM  

39. EU hates Europe. Turkey hates Europe. Therefore, only Turkey belongs to the EU, Turkey alone.

Blogger Jack Ward September 07, 2017 4:25 PM  

Thought: All the muslims admited to Catalonia. A Catalan deep state effort to get them in, succeed from Spain, then, declare for the caliphate? Stranger things may be on the horizon.

Blogger Antonio From Spain September 07, 2017 4:30 PM  

43. that is well known. see Angel Colom's connections to Morocco.

Blogger Jonathon Davies September 07, 2017 4:36 PM  

Catalans want the 'free' EU cash, but they will simply shackle themselves further. What will happen when the next round of EU migrant quotas come around?

Anonymous Anonymous September 07, 2017 4:42 PM  

"The crazy thing is that an independent Catalonia would almost certainly turn around and demand admittance to the EU."
Just like the Scottish soviet.

Blogger Quadko September 07, 2017 4:46 PM  

Boomers made the law already, millennials are not allowed to change them.

So, if they have no choice but to honor old laws, aren't they already still a subject of the Caliphate and an officially Islamic nation? No one is allowed to leave, ever - that's illegal! You can't do that!!

Blogger Antonio From Spain September 07, 2017 4:51 PM  

47. The Catalonian parliament approved a new legal framework of their own choosing in 2006. And yesterday they chose to violate even that.

Blogger Gordon September 07, 2017 4:53 PM  

Tattoaine Sharpshooter, is there seriously any kind of separatist movement in Germany? I have not heard of this.

Of course, much of western Europe was only united into countries in the 19th and 20th centuries, including France, Germany and Italy. Feuds run long and deep.

Blogger Johnny September 07, 2017 5:02 PM  

The reason the United States was formed was the desire to put together an army big enough to beat off the British. The ideals of the revolution were like frosting on the cake, part of the sales pitch necessary to get the colonials to go along. And the reason for wanting to sustain the union was the desire to retain a political entity big enough to not get pushed around by the various predatory European states. Which is to say the the United States was formed and retained for the purpose of military strength. The ideals were important only to the extent they helped hold the union together.

As it is with the Untied States, so it is elsewhere. Big battilions beat little batallions, and it is that reality that caused these large political states. As the Europeans have semi withdrawn the threat of the use of force, the tendency is to disunion.

Personally I would like to see an active separatist movement in Catalonia because it would damage the EU. The sooner that thing morphs into something else or is abandoned the better. And hey, if the place already has a large Islamic population, when they get to driving them out of other places, they can encourage them to go to Catalonia. The major benefit here is that when they become numerous enough, their predatory tendencies will come out and the rest of Europe will get a major teaching moment as to why so many people do not welcome Arabic "migrants".

Blogger Johnny September 07, 2017 5:06 PM  

Gordon wrote:Tattoaine Sharpshooter, is there seriously any kind of separatist movement in Germany? I have not heard of this.

The mistake they made after WWII when they were trying to break Germany up was that they divided the place east and west. They should have gone north and south. The Prussian north and the Bohemian south were not all that much alike. I would imagine now it is too late for a workable separatist movement, but can't say that I know.

Blogger pyrrhus September 07, 2017 5:23 PM  

There is no way that Catalonia would be admitted to the EU, but there is every way that Catalonian politicians would agree to a continued influx of moslems....But 1/2 is still better than remaining with Spain.

Anonymous Jessica Osborne September 07, 2017 5:26 PM  

It's already there

Blogger Azimus September 07, 2017 5:31 PM  

It's Hemmingway's fault.

Anonymous Ages September 07, 2017 5:36 PM  

I don't think so. Certain ways of dealing were acceptable in centuries past that would not happen today. Watch sanctions get imposed on America from around the world if that happened.

But in any case, I'm speaking as a matter of principle. No territory should be able to subjugate another. Least of all, a creature its creator.

Blogger Tatooine Sharpshooters' Club September 07, 2017 5:36 PM  

@49 - The division between the generally Catholic south (Bavaria) and the Lutheran North and East (such as Prussia) still occasionally bubbles to the surface, usually in the form of divisions within the main parties.

There are some small separatist parties in Germany. However, the memory of Germanies East and West is a strong disincentive to any autonomy talk in Germany.

Blogger Tatooine Sharpshooters' Club September 07, 2017 5:44 PM  

"Basque country would be sprinting for the door" is that the reason why the Basque Nationalist party is supporting the party that is ruling Spain?

Or is it because every country has its own form of RINO and political parties, like politicians, often have their eyes fixed firmly on the main chance?

Blogger Mr.MantraMan September 07, 2017 5:54 PM  

Sounds like a caliphate in the making

Anonymous Chaim Goldstein September 07, 2017 6:24 PM  

But is it good for the Jews?

Anonymous 5343 Kinds of Deplorable September 07, 2017 6:26 PM  

But is it good for the Jews?

Going back is good for the Jews.

Blogger Antonio From Spain September 07, 2017 6:28 PM  

59. Jewish community mobilizes for independence
https://www.elconfidencial.com/espana/cataluna/2016-10-11/cataluna-consul-honorario-israel-puigdemont-margallo_1273305/

Anonymous SAK September 07, 2017 6:39 PM  

For those wondering if Catalonia would be allowed into the EU:

the European Council may decide — by unanimity — to grant the country candidate status.

The European Council is made up of the heads of state/government of the EU member nations.

So, to join they need all the EU political leaders to agree. That includes Mariano Rajoy, the Prime Minister of Spain (or one of his successors).

Anonymous Jay Will September 07, 2017 6:54 PM  

Vox should debate me, at worst a gamma can be exposed.

He's weak on the "elites".

Blogger weka September 07, 2017 7:30 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Phat Repat September 07, 2017 7:50 PM  

Ages wrote:Any territory that desires independence and expresses that desire democratically should be able to have it. Whether that's Texas or California or Scotland or Catalonia.

Secession will never happen; sure, take this land that has an incalculable value and go in peace. Yeah, a non-starter, the tanks will roll.

Anonymous Ages September 07, 2017 8:09 PM  

Phat Repat wrote:Secession will never happen; sure, take this land that has an incalculable value and go in peace. Yeah, a non-starter, the tanks will roll.

"Never"?

Complex life is expected to end on earth in about 500 million years. Are you saying the US government will be holding a gun to Texas' head for all of that time?

Anonymous Ages September 07, 2017 8:11 PM  

Also, how can a state "take" itself? That's like saying a person who brings food to a potluck is a thief for taking the leftovers home.

Blogger papabear September 07, 2017 8:24 PM  

"Perhaps it should be added to Alt-Right philosophy: a nation state may mandate that only one language shall be used."

This is a standard the development of the modern nation-state and the corresponding form of nationalism. Not really something to be adopted if it outlaws regional variations in languages and local cultures.

Blogger modsquad September 07, 2017 9:39 PM  

Cataline Sergius wrote:The crazy thing is that an independent Catalonia would almost certainly turn around and demand admittance to the EU.

I'd read a while back that the EU was saying, NO in advance to Catalonia.

That Brussels doesn't want a bunch of tiny basket case countries siphoning off the Euro.


The EU would admit Barbados if they applied, the more servants the better. As far as the Euro is concerned, there's no siphoning off, it's called borrowing. And banks love to lend, the more the merrier. Which is why the EU would refuse no one on the planet admission to their club.

Blogger J.M. September 07, 2017 9:58 PM  

Antonio is right, many here including our honorable host lack context and the knowledge to understand what's going on in Spain. Spaniard politicians (all of them, PP, Socialists, Podemos...) are first class traitors. The Spanish people themselves have been brainwashed right after he kicked the bucket, indoctrinated into hating their country, their language (specially if they belong to areas that have dialects they themselves and their families haven't spoken for generations and who joined Spain long before any Englishman dreamt of leaving the British Isles for America), hating their religion, the Church, with zeal only outmatched by the Northern Europeans.

Separatists on the other hand are just power hungry leftists who long after the creation of a Estate they can rule as they see fit (notice I use Estate, as in plantation) while collecting checks from Spain and the EU and achieving their aim without risking their "precious" lives in a real independence war. They have indoctrinated their countrymen with drivel and outright lies about their region and Spain, thus marginalizing anyone who is against their insane project. In saner times they would have been executed or exiled on sedition charges. The situation is akin to a hypothetical scenario where, in some Midwestern States and encouraged by their State governments, Schools start teaching children Swedish, German or Norwegian in lieu of English or at the same level, local governments strong-armed TV stations start producing local TV shows in those languages, Transportation state authorities change street signs to those languages while remove English ones , texts and books in the state have to be sold in those languages turning english into an option, and indoctrinating their youth with drivel about how they have been oppressed by the English thus producing their own flags and their motto "Out with the English". All of this while the Government in DC spends its time appeasing the separatists with more subsidies, seats in the Congress, highways, inwater and inland ports, etc. etc. Well that's the situation in Spain.

But I guess the greatest problem in Spain is that it lost it's raison d'etre the day Faith started to vanish. Unlike other countries, faith and not just mere political considerations were the main drivers for the Reconquista and the Unification of the Kingdoms who were not conquered but joined voluntarily and retained their own forms of governments. Faith was so strong that even in Times of Franco, was a force able to unite under its banner disparate right wing troops that even into the Civil War, actively disliked each other...This force was given what appears to be a fatal blow with Vatican II and the massive heresy that such a meeting spouted and nowadays it seems completely spent.

Anonymous Gen. Kong September 07, 2017 11:15 PM  

Thought: All the muslims admited to Catalonia. A Catalan deep state effort to get them in, succeed from Spain, then, declare for the caliphate? Stranger things may be on the horizon.

That crossed my mind too. Al-Adalus arises again. According to (((certain folks))) the previous incarnation was a multi-culti paradise on earth. Looks like (((they))) are all for it. As for Brussels, Antonio is right. They need to expel all Europe from EUSSR and move HQ to Ankara. I rather doubt Sultan Erdogan would appreciate them though. Besides, it's more mythology that the marionettes in Brussels are calling the shots in EUSSR, whose (((actual rulers))) reside elsewhere. The Bankstein-appointed prime-minister of Greece was not ordered to arrest Golden Dawn by the whores in Brussels, Paris or Berlin. His orders came on a visit to Kwa-Bananaland, at a meeting attended by (((those who owned the Greek bonds))) along with his soul. Same for Spain, same for Catalonia.

Anonymous Gen. Kong September 07, 2017 11:29 PM  

@70. Excellent post. The fatal wound came in 1965. A fateful year that was. It's taken decades to play out but Vatican II girdled the tree so the branches died off one by one. And so here we are. As mentioned above, the EUSSR's owners love to lend fake money and no-doubt the fake-Calalonians would be glad for the 30 pieces of fake silver, even if they have to hand over 25 to pay their Musloid legion.

Anonymous Carulla September 07, 2017 11:29 PM  

As they used to say: Franco, Franco, FRANCO!

Spain: Una, Grande, Libre.

Anonymous Roger Monnier September 08, 2017 12:02 AM  

"But really, if the Catalans genuinely want independence, why should they not have it?"

This is a spectacularly stupid question/assertion.

The Spanish Constitution is clear on the question. The only possible legal means for a catalan separation is for the entire country to vote on a change to the constitution concerning its indivisibility as well as on a means for a region to secede.

Good God. Get it together man and think rationally.

Blogger Phat Repat September 08, 2017 1:51 AM  

Ages wrote:Also, how can a state "take" itself? That's like saying a person who brings food to a potluck is a thief for taking the leftovers home.

Well, in that case, the would-be thief brought something. Not so with the invaders in the states you mentioned. And let's be honest, that's what they are, those espousing for such secession. Thus, NEVER.

Anonymous SciVo de Plorable September 08, 2017 2:35 AM  

From way over here in Oregon, I perceive Madrid vs. Catalan as a kayfabe to distract the People from how the ruling class is offering a fake choice of a poo sandwich with honey vs. a poo sandwich with jalapenos. Two Babelist skinsuits playing up their disagreement over china patterns in their gay wedding.

Blogger Sillon Bono September 08, 2017 3:07 AM  

As always VD clueless as to what is happening in Spain,or how Spain works.

Tell me VD if Catalonians are so oppressed, where ia the proof of the oppression?

It should be fairly easy to demonstrate isn't?

Oh it turns out Catalonians oppression is the result of their successive autonomous governs dilapidation of their budgets, massive creation of debt, cultural indoctrination of their populace, imaginary prosperity if they get all the budget and resorts of power of course, and mass importation of Muslims.

Yeah, I wish the Catalonians a happy revolution and a communist paradise they so desperately want.

But what the majority of Spaniards want is for the Catalonians to shut the fuck up and cut the constant whining.

VD read about Spanish history, it is way, way more complex than just the civil war,for fuck sake.

Blogger Sillon Bono September 08, 2017 3:16 AM  

Phat Repat wrote:Ages wrote:Any territory that desires independence and expresses that desire democratically should be able to have it. Whether that's Texas or California or Scotland or Catalonia.

Secession will never happen; sure, take this land that has an incalculable value and go in peace. Yeah, a non-starter, the tanks will roll.


Tanks are not required when you can dispatch 2 police vans, and arrest them for the continuous violation of a dozen Spanish constitutiona laws for the last 30 years.

They will shit themselves at the first sight of a "civil guard" (Guardia Civil) asking to please come with them to the station.

Blogger Galahad78 September 08, 2017 3:46 AM  

Antonio from Madrid speaks true, as he has done in the past. We non-nationalist Catalonian citizens are very afraid of this totalitarist movement (as showed yesterday and the day before in the local Parlament) and because of the lack of perceived reply from Madrid Government.

Our estimated host asks "But really, if the Catalans genuinely want independence, why should they not have it?"

I'll not play word tricks about "real Catalans" etc. The point is that less than 50% of the population wants independence. In fact, that number can be as low as 30% (as showed on the fake referendum of 9th Novemberm 2014, or as showed by the fact that the local Govern has asked for a participation of only 30% to get their victory as "valid"). Then, how can you govern a country so divided? The reply is: you can't. Unless you are prepared to take some vicious actions which could lead to another civil war.

Blogger Antonio From Spain September 08, 2017 8:09 AM  

79. Our esteemed host never asked either "when Catalan families want to educate their children in Spanish why shouldn't they?" The rights of the Spanish speakers in Catalonia -who are more than half of the population according to the Catalan government- have never been a concern of him. The Catalan government has violated the rights of the majority while the Spanish government looked the other way, this has never once prompted our esteemed host to comment on the "democratic legitimacy" of the Spanish government. to the best of my knowledge, not once has he criticized the many abuses of the Catalan elite, nor the odd permissiveness of the Spanish government.

This is a plan to destroy the rights -and eventually lives- of the European peoples. Some use supranational weapons, such as NATO, UN, and EU. Others use subnational tools such as Catalanism. The goal is exactly the same, the ideology is exactly the same, the result is exactly the same. It's a pincer movement.

Blogger Antonio From Spain September 08, 2017 8:26 AM  

74. Correct. And the Spanish Constitution was approved after the referendum of 1978.

The "yes" vote got these results in the four Catalan provinces:
91% in Barcelona.
91.7% in Tarragona.
91.9% in Lérida.
90.4% in Gerona.

86.8% votes "yes" in Madrid.

And as I've mentioned above, what has happened this week violates several laws passed by the Catalan parliament, including the "Estatut" (regional constitution) of 2006. Including also the Catalan parliament "reglament" that establishes how laws are passed.

Blogger Antonio From Spain September 08, 2017 9:04 AM  

Kong, want the newest images of the fakeness of it all?

Here the most democratic Catalanist Carles Puigdemont with the evil antidemocratic Alicia Sanchez and Andrea Levy of the Partido Popular (same party as Spanish govt) having some laughs...

http://tv.libertaddigital.com/videos/2017-09-08/sanchez-camacho-y-puigdemont-entre-risas-tomandose-un-cafe-6062000.html

Anonymous Gen. Kong September 08, 2017 2:20 PM  

This is a plan to destroy the rights -and eventually lives- of the European peoples. Some use supranational weapons, such as NATO, UN, and EU. Others use subnational tools such as Catalanism. The goal is exactly the same, the ideology is exactly the same, the result is exactly the same. It's a pincer movement.

Andrea Levy, that's a real Spaniard there for you. Right out of Emir's court in the fabled land of Al-Andalus. Antonio is dead. on. target. This is exactly what it is - the "right" side of a pincer movement. Ditto for Scotland. Fake nationalism.

Blogger Sam Spade September 08, 2017 4:59 PM  

@80 "This is a plan to destroy the rights -and eventually lives- of the European peoples. Some use supranational weapons, such as NATO, UN, and EU. Others use subnational tools such as Catalanism. The goal is exactly the same, the ideology is exactly the same, the result is exactly the same. It's a pincer movement."


This is the most accurate analysis. Maabe is unusual on current global politics, but it's the strategy used to destroy Spain for many years.

Thanks Antonio.

Blogger Antonio From Spain September 09, 2017 3:10 PM  

Oh, the popcorn!
http://comunicacio.e-noticies.cat/lara-evita-fer-publicitat-del-referendum-112213.html

Taxpayer-funded independentist newspaper «Ara» refuses to publish pro-independence referendum advertisements.

Blogger Antonio From Spain September 10, 2017 7:45 AM  

Some updates:

Six of the ten largest cities in Catalonia, including the capital Barcelona, won't participate in the referendum. City governments that have refused to attend the Catalan government's illegal request to use their premises for the referendum now represent 60% of the population.

High-ranking Catalan government official tells people to print out their own ballots at home.

According to a Catalan government survey, a majority of in the Catalan capital, Barcelona, do not want independence.

According to a poll, most Catalans think the referendum is neither valid nor legal.

To promote the referendum, the regional public TV interviews Marxist kidnapper and murderer Arnaldo Otegui in prime time.

https://elpais.com/ccaa/2017/09/07/catalunya/1504795818_434503.html
http://politica.e-noticies.cat/la-segona-ciutat-de-catalunya-es-despenja-del-referendum-112187.html
https://elpais.com/ccaa/2017/09/09/catalunya/1504987084_099835.html
http://www.vilaweb.cat/noticies/turull-informa-que-es-pot-imprimir-el-material-oficial-de-l1-o-des-de-la-pagina-web-del-dogc/
http://comunicacio.e-noticies.cat/arnaldo-otegi-estrella-a-tv3-112220.html


As formerly pro-independence Catalan journalist says "Catalonia is going to the shit" http://opinio.e-noticies.cat/la-punteta/catalunya-se-va-a-la-mierda-112095.html

Blogger Antonio From Spain September 11, 2017 8:35 AM  

The Assemblea Nacional Catalana (ANC), founded in 2011 to promote Catalan independence, now says that they "do not like" the October referendum.

ANC president, Jordi Sánchez, just made an offer to the Spanish president to stop this referendum and negotiate yet another one for 2019.

http://societat.e-noticies.cat/lanc-diu-ara-que-l1-doctubre-no-ens-agrada-112238.html

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