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Thursday, September 14, 2017

The black art of the deal

As always, I caution restraint before leaping to any conclusions. But I will readily admit, these initial reports of a deal on DACA look almost spectacularly stupid on the part of the President:
The top House and Senate Democrats said Wednesday they had reached agreement with President Donald Trump to protect thousands of younger immigrants from deportation and fund some border security enhancements — not including Trump’s long-sought border wall.

The agreement, the latest instance of Trump ditching his own party to make common cause with the opposition, was announced by Senate Democratic Leader Chuck Schumer and House Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi following a White House dinner that Republican lawmakers weren’t invited to attend. It would enshrine protections for the nearly 800,000 immigrants brought illegally to this country as kids who had benefited from former President Barack Obama’s Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals, or DACA, program, which provided temporary work permits and shielded recipients from deportation.

Trump ended the program earlier this month and gave Congress six months to come up with a legislative fix before the statuses of the so-called “Dreamers” begin to expire.

“We agreed to enshrine the protections of DACA into law quickly, and to work out a package of border security, excluding the wall, that’s acceptable to both sides,” Pelosi and Schumer said in a joint statement.

White House Press Secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders partially disputed their characterization, saying over Twitter that “excluding the wall was certainly not agreed to.”

Either way, it was the second time in two weeks that Trump cut out Republicans to reach a deal with Pelosi and Schumer. A person briefed on the meeting, who demanded anonymity to discuss it, said the deal specifies bipartisan legislation called the DREAM Act that provides eventual citizenship for the young immigrants.

House Republicans would normally rebel over such an approach, which many view as amnesty for law-breakers. It remains to be seen how conservatives’ loyalty to Trump will affect their response to a policy they would have opposed under other circumstances.

The House’s foremost immigration hardliner, GOP Rep. Steve King of Iowa, made clear that he, for one, was not happy. Addressing Trump over Twitter, King wrote that if the reports were true, “Trump base is blown up, destroyed, irreparable, and disillusioned beyond repair. No promise is credible.”
Remember, the usual Trump method is one step back, two steps forward. If this pattern prevails, the next two steps forward should be magnificent. Don't count the man out until he is actually out. That's not mindless optimism talking, but rather, the voice of an experience recalling how this game has played out before.

Trump can probably survive caving on DACA if he actually gets the Big Beautiful Wall built. But if he thinks he can play the conventional Republican game of "hey, we got a bipartisan deal" in lieu of delivering on his primary campaign promises, he is going to be surprised at how fast his support melts away.

UPDATE: Then again, this does not bode well, and tends to suggest that the God-Emperor simply does not grasp the thinness of the ice on which he is skating. Of course, he may only be chumming the social media waters. It's impossible to say at this point.
Donald J. Trump‏Verified@realDonaldTrump
Does anybody really want to throw out good, educated and accomplished young people who have jobs, some serving in the military? Really!.....

Supreme Dark Lord‏ @voxday
Yes. Yes, we do. Now throw them out and BUILD THE WALL!

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215 Comments:

1 – 200 of 215 Newer› Newest»
Blogger Shimshon September 14, 2017 5:37 AM  

I agree. Amnesty for 800K future gang leaders and immigration advocates, as bad as that sounds, is a good deal in exchange for The Wall, if that's what it takes. Those miscreants are here already, and there are millions of other illegals worth contending with anyway.

This is the same media that assured us Romney was a shoo-in for SECSTATE. Congress is more likely to implode than make a deal.

Blogger Resident Moron™ September 14, 2017 5:37 AM  

The Black Art of the Deal, or the Art of the Black Deal?

Time will tell. Trump's already taken a sizable hit over his half-arsed Afghan surge, which basically just aggravates both sides (one because it's a double down on a losing hand, the other because they wanted to double-double-down).

I tend to agree with James Woods: Wall = Win, No Wall = Lose.

I also think Trump knows this, so I expect him to build the wall.

Blogger Koanic September 14, 2017 5:38 AM  

The young ones aren't in season yet.

Anonymous Ignaz Semmelweis September 14, 2017 5:44 AM  

Of course Trump will build the Wall, shut down DACA, destroy ISIS, get the middle-class and business a tax-break, clean up MS-13, drain the Swamp, destroy the Dems in 2018 and again in 2020.

And he'll win re-election in 2020 by a larger margin than when he buried Crooked Hillary.

Everyone needs to take a chill pill and stop paying so much attention to the Panic Pushers.

Blogger VD September 14, 2017 5:44 AM  

I tend to agree with James Woods: Wall = Win, No Wall = Lose.

I have said that from the start. We have no need of another excuse-making Republican who points to deals with Democrats as accomplishments.

Blogger Anno Ruse September 14, 2017 5:44 AM  

We're trusting Pelosi and Chuck Schumer to convey the truth of the President's words? Ha.

Trump knows his name is trash with half the country. He knows his name will be trash with the other half if he doesn't build the wall. His ego alone makes the wall a necessity. This is a guy who named a tower after himself and then moved into it, for fucks sake.

Blogger Abyssus Invocat September 14, 2017 5:45 AM  

VD is correct. It would be spectacularly stupid to abandon the wall for essentially nothing, and Trump is not a stupid man.

Blogger Resident Moron™ September 14, 2017 5:45 AM  

In that case, James and I agree with you.

Mea culpa.

Anonymous Looking Glass September 14, 2017 5:47 AM  

PressSec denied on the wall issue and other responses are some level of "they're lying". This reads as much as a Gaslighting of the Trump base as anything else.

However, at the same time, right now is about when most of the Primary Challengers are coming to decisions, NumbersUSA still has a lot of influence and if you want to light a fire under the base, this is a really good way to do it.

From a strategic viewpoint, the Wall is one of the most needed aspects, but also one of the hardest to accomplish. Wall + Deportation + Immigration Enforcement ends the Democrats as a national-level force for a decade or more. Which is why it should be easy for the GOP to pull off, by whatever tricks needed. But, UniParty. It means there's no head-on approach to accomplishing it. Has to be approached by secondary levels.

Expect the Debt Ceiling to never get approved for that long. Trump can use it as a cudgel against the GOPe for a long time. But he needs more help in the Senate & House.

But there's been deals on some form of DACA or Amnesty before. Trump will take a "loss" if the Base destroys the House & Senate GOP over this, but we need to see what this deal is. Because MAGA is going to be pissed and the GOP better head for the hills if they think they're visiting their home district again.

Anonymous Looking Glass September 14, 2017 5:53 AM  

https://ballotpedia.org/United_States_Senate_special_election_in_Alabama,_2017

Special Election is Sept 26th. If you want to see a weathervane for the state of the electorate, this should be the test case. Future Senator Moore is going to murder Strange over this.

Anonymous spekkle September 14, 2017 5:55 AM  

Abyssus Invocat wrote:Trump is not a stupid man

One good thing, when your ideology is of the anti-Enlightenment stripe, is that you needn't pay any attention to actual, objective reality...

Anonymous Ages September 14, 2017 6:03 AM  

If he does this, it is a step back that he will not recover from. Nobody wants to build the wall, so unless the wall is funded in the DACA bill, good luck.

Remember, the usual Trump method is one step back, two steps forward. If this pattern prevails, the next two steps forward should be magnificent.

Sorry, I can't buy into the 4D chess theory that much. There is no defense for Trump if he signs amnesty for a million illegals. And I am certain he will sign whatever Congress manages to pass. I'd like to be wrong, but I don't think I am.

This is shaping up like the typical Republican "Hey, we can get along :-))))))))))))))" nonsense.

You never see the Democrats do things like this. And that's why they almost always win, in the end.

We need to burn up the switchboards and email servers and try to stop this in Congress. Ultimately Trump is not going to save the country, but we might be able to.

Anonymous Looking Glass September 14, 2017 6:06 AM  

https://twitter.com/JoeJ_Clark/status/908169672029294593

Scroll up for the entire chain. Solid read on a potential strategic layer. Don't forget on the first run through with Obamacare, where the "Freedom" Caucus scuttled the deal, Trump got behind a deal that seemed DOA with a lot of force. (And it was DOA.) Trump will push things that will "fail" because failing in such a manner is actually valuable in its own right.

Trump is Machiavellian enough to release part of his own Taxes showing a $900 million loss. Everything but Trump at Rallies is DisInfo from here on out. If Ryan/McConnell/Pelosi/Schumer want some DACA deal, they better hope the weight of a pissed off electorate doesn't completely jam their phone lines.

Blogger Lovekraft September 14, 2017 6:06 AM  

I've advised on gab that we wait until things seem more concrete before 'The Great Abandonment'.

We will see the hubris of the marxists on full display. Those who placed their faith in one man, Trump, will also be revealed.

The very fact the nation has still remained intact after the insanity of the past year means, to me, that western nations, at best, should be viewed as a stumbling drunk.

Blogger Lovekraft September 14, 2017 6:08 AM  

There is also the very real factor that when the Democrats get back into power, the antifa protests could be seen as a picnic in the park and the witchhunts will be in full force.

Don't underestimate the depths to which the left will stoop. If Trump realizes this as well, it would be wise for us to start preparing for this contingency, build strong defenses so that the left is the one 'holding the bag.'

Anonymous Ages September 14, 2017 6:09 AM  

Clarification: Nobody in Congress wants to build the wall.

Anonymous Ages September 14, 2017 6:12 AM  

I hope you are right. But every signal coming from the White House is that Trump wants them to pass something.

Blogger Kona Commuter September 14, 2017 6:13 AM  

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/908272007011282944

"No deal was made last night on DACA. Massive border security would have to be agreed to in exchange for consent. Would be subject to vote."

Anonymous Looking Glass September 14, 2017 6:19 AM  

"Build the Wall or Pikes for them All!"

Need to A/B test some meme concepts here.


@Ages:

Considering the MSM is pretty much gaslighting about the the Wall, along with all of the "Trump is cucking!" narratives, it's clear they're trying to produce it. As for "something" passing Congress, it's a matter of "what's in the bill?". Congress has passed almost nothing new this entire year, if *this* is what gets them moving, they can expect the largest number of Primaries in decades. It's going to be so easy to unseat the GOPe people in a lot of primaries.

But Amnesty is a no-go. If you give the DACA people 3 years to clear out, that's "deal" that's acceptable. But Congress still has to pass what's going to be the most controversial bill of the session. That should be fun to watch. Feed your Primary Opponent, oh brilliant GOP member.

Blogger Tatooine Sharpshooters' Club September 14, 2017 6:20 AM  

"We agreed to enshrine the protections of DACA into law quickly, and to work out a package of border security, excluding the wall, that’s acceptable to both sides"

A deal to work on making a deal. Looks like the bog standard Beltway media handjob, from a pair of the Swamp's slimy whores. And "enshrining the protections of DACA into law" is also a whole lot of nothing, because they still have to pass any "deal" they come up with, if they ever do.

Blogger Nathan Hal September 14, 2017 6:21 AM  

After the shock of tomahawks on Syria and that playing out pretty well I'm happy to watch the live action art of the deal play out in real time. GOP goobers have been forgetting who needs whom and this type of stuff is why we elected Trump. Already predicting msm headlines along the lines of " wall impossible now "

Anonymous Looking Glass September 14, 2017 6:23 AM  

Okay, maybe the statements about Pelosi's Alzheimer's wasn't so much a joke. "The Middle" appears to have collapsed pretty quickly.

Blogger Shimshon September 14, 2017 6:37 AM  

When it becomes clear to the DACA-nauts that their amnesty hinges on the wall, it will be their Room 101 moment.

Anonymous Looking Glass September 14, 2017 6:38 AM  

I think maybe "Dark Art" is the better term. I can see exactly why Trump is going to keep playing this angle, even if I don't have to like it.

But, seriously, Build the Wall; Deport them All.

Blogger pdwalker September 14, 2017 6:41 AM  

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/908276308265795585

Does anybody really want to throw out good, educated and accomplished young people who have jobs, some serving in the military? Really!.....
--

Is he being drugged as infowars suggests? Because the answer is not just yes!, but hell yes!!

Let's see how it plays out because it'll have to be an epic wall win.

Anonymous basementhomebrewer September 14, 2017 6:48 AM  

Hoping this is all a lesson for the GOP leadership. Not sure how effective it is though. GOP leadership largely wants the same thing. I also think odds are good that it's being mischaracterized by the media and Democrats.

That being said, if it is what they are saying it doesn't matter that Trump torpedoed his base. He is giving the democrats enough extra voters to defeat him in the next election. 800K is a joke of a low number when you think about the practicality of enforcing this program. How does a 30 year old prove his parents illegally brought them here when they were a minor? How can you tell them apart from the 25 year old who walked into the country yesterday but is claiming their parents brought them here 15 years ago? If you are a deep state bureaucrat who sympathizes with all illegals do you even want to tell them apart? That 800K easily turns into 2-3 million or more. It will esentially be blanket amnesty for all illegals under ~35.

Blogger Cataline Sergius September 14, 2017 6:48 AM  

I see two possibilities here.

One. He is being captured by the swamp.

Two. He is setting up a working relationship with Schumer and Pelosi. He is getting a feel for them as a dealmaker.

We'll know for sure next in December

His next and final chance to build the Wall will be the Christmas Showdown.

The Debt Ceiling will come up again then. The Democrats are convinced that the GOP will cave on a shutdown because they have the last two times. But it should be noted that the last two times, the Democrats controlled the White House.

Honestly who cares if the press explodes over a shutdown, they do that everyday, its boring at this point.

And the big thing to remember is that ultimately a shutdown hurts the Dems much worse than it hurts us. Most of their base is entirely dependent upon it. They will have to fold if goes on long enough.

Mister Trump, build up this Wall!

Blogger SemiSpook37 September 14, 2017 6:50 AM  

It sounds like he's made the proverbial deal with the devil, but lest we forget, this reporting is coming from the same group of folks that were certain of so many other things that they assumed Trump was going to be affected by, only to see it explode in their faces EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.

This "deal" is a honeypot. You can already see the disconnect between what the lackeys are reporting and what the actual administration is. Less than 24 hours after a meeting to report that he "gave up" on the Wall?

This is the equivalent of signing a contract, then realizing that you missed a line about something important in your haste to sign. That realization won't be apparent until it's closer to the time to the DACA vote.

Blogger ZhukovG September 14, 2017 6:51 AM  

I am withholding judgement on GE Trump's success or failure till 2020.

It is the Alt-Right(West) that is the future, not any Civic Nationalist and not any Fake-Right Leftist dupe. Our beloved God Emperor provides us time. Let us each use that time to bring those within our circles of influence into the Alt-Right.

Ad Victoriam! Ave Imperator Trump!

Anonymous Mandos September 14, 2017 6:52 AM  

I'm entirely in the "relax & enjoy the ride" train by now. An unexpected but not undesirable side effect of the Trump presidency is to expose in embarrassingly broad daylight how clueless many people are, almost everybody in fact and especially those who err on the side of definitive assertions. It may or may not be part of the bigger plan to destroy the media's credibility, hard to say for sure but I find it pretty tempting to believe it is. It also happens to damage allies by confusing them and making them taking stances that look foolish in retrospect, but that's what chaos does.

There are only two possible scenarios here: either Trump is finally cucking on immigration, because he indeed is the clueless fool depicted by his enemies, smokescreened and choked by the fake allies he surrounded himself with.
Or, he's building leverage for later. Like in 6 months time, when the midterms are going to get much warmer and the pressure to deliver on key campaign promises higher. You choose.

Blogger red clock September 14, 2017 6:56 AM  

Did you see Trump's latest, pro-Amnesty tweets?
He also says existing fences are part of the 'wall.'

Anyone still pretending that he's not actively betraying his promises is delusional. The best that can be said is that he's clueless and may go back to opposing amnesty again.

But I'm done supporting Trump. America's future is not a game and politicians who do the wrong thing need to face backlash and consequences, whether it's Clinton or Trump.

(Read his tweets before attacking me.)

Anonymous Steve September 14, 2017 7:01 AM  

You'd think this was Dr. President Trump's first ever push-pull or something.

As Harold Melvin put it, "if you don't know me by now..."

Anonymous Ages September 14, 2017 7:02 AM  

Does anybody really want to throw out good, educated and accomplished young people who have jobs, some serving in the military? Really!.....
...They have been in our country for many years through no fault of their own - brought in by parents at young age. Plus BIG border security


Welp, there it is. Trump clearly going back on his campaign promise, in his own words. Sad day.

Is it still gaslighting if Trump is doing it himself?

Blogger Salt September 14, 2017 7:06 AM  

If Trump halts all immigration for the remainder of his term and kicks out the non-DACA, I might go for it.

Blogger Anno Ruse September 14, 2017 7:06 AM  

So many new names are "done" with Trump! Whatever shall we do!

"The WALL, which is already under construction in the form of new renovation of old and existing fences and walls, will continue to be built." - PDJT

I voted for the wall. Deportation of all is a nice dream but Trump isn't hard enough for it. It'll happen eventually. The wall will buy us time to set things straight.

Blogger Lazarus September 14, 2017 7:07 AM  

red clock wrote:red clock wrote:Did you see Trump's latest, pro-Amnesty tweets?

He also says existing fences are part of the 'wall.'

Anyone still pretending that he's not actively betraying his promises is delusional. The best that can be said is that he's clueless and may go back to opposing amnesty again.
(Read his tweets before attacking me.)



Trump:
The WALL, which is already under construction in the form of new renovation of old and existing fences and walls, will continue to be built.

How is the declaration that the wall will continue to be built a betrayal??

Anonymous Aeoli Pera September 14, 2017 7:08 AM  

Build it.

Anonymous Ages September 14, 2017 7:08 AM  

Yes, we do want to throw them out. They never should have been in the military. They all need to go back.

I'm sure we will all celebrate our kindness and generosity when Texas goes blue.

And honestly, I don't care if this is all disinformation or not. Trump is not an idealogue, even for MAGA it seems, so his feet need to constantly be held to the fire. The only support he has to lose is his core.

Anonymous Ages September 14, 2017 7:10 AM  

Refurbished fence =/= big beautiful wall

Anonymous Looking Glass September 14, 2017 7:12 AM  

I think the Tweets need to be taken as a pairing. Start from yesterday:

Crooked Hillary Clinton blames everybody (and every thing) but herself for her election loss. She lost the debates and lost her direction!

The "deplorables" came back to haunt Hillary.They expressed their feelings loud and clear. She spent big money but, in the end, had no game!



Yes, it was lighting up Hillary, but look at that second Tweet. This looks a lot more like a "seeding" tweet that Trump likes to do. It'll be useful later.

Now, this morning's chain:

No deal was made last night on DACA. Massive border security would have to be agreed to in exchange for consent. Would be subject to vote.

The WALL, which is already under construction in the form of new renovation of old and existing fences and walls, will continue to be built.


Does anybody really want to throw out good, educated and accomplished young people who have jobs, some serving in the military? Really!.....

...They have been in our country for many years through no fault of their own - brought in by parents at young age. Plus BIG border security



Let's take these together. Last night's Tweets were a message to those paying attention that a bunch of stuff is coming. He knows how Hillary screwed up. "in the end, had no game!". That's not an accident of a tweet.

Now, yes, we do want them deported. Sucks to be them, but that's the nature of it all. However, let's look at this from the Strategic Layer. Trump just lit up Pelosi/Schumer for playing to the Media, which is going to make a deal harder for the Dems. This puts he onus on the Democrats to come to the table to get anything done. No action? DACA dies completely and it's off the table for any leverage.

Now, the GOPe is the bigger problem, but they have to deliver some sort of DACA deal that involves the Border and other funding. (And lots of it. "Massive border security".) But Trump just laid out that it's such a horrible place they're stuck in. Trump is playing the middle against the GOPe.

Oh, and realize that any DACA legislation is going to be roughly like carrying 40 pounds of steak through a lion enclosure. With the MAGA base as the Lions. And we're hungry. Steak is now in Ryan & McConnell's hands. This should be fun. Time to burn down the GOPe.

Blogger Chris Jackson September 14, 2017 7:17 AM  

There's his words, and there's what he's actually done.

His words are worrisome to those of us who would like to see the borders of the United States secured.

His actions suggest a different story. So far, he's simply rescinded the DACA EO and given the responsibility of attempting to come up with a solution to Congress. Now what he's doing is parroting the language of GOP, who were trying to posture in reaction to the rescinding of DACA to try not to look mean - as they do on every issue. Next, the legislature has to try to pass some kind of bill, and will likely fail to do anything that the people en masse will get behind. None of that has changed yet.

It may be that No amnesty with a wall simply isn't feasible.... UNLESS sitting congressmen get the blame for the amnesty and get booted in the midterms because of it. Perhaps Trump is merely letting that play out and given them a little nudge towards that turn of events.


Anonymous Looking Glass September 14, 2017 7:24 AM  

@red clock:

Obvious troll is obvious.


@Ages:

He told us to keep him to his word. It's been working pretty well so far. DACA is pretty much DOA from this point on. Though this is about the, what, 4th major time people have "gotten of the Trump Train"?.

I'm still waiting for when we invade Syria, btw.

As I said up thread, I don't have to like it to not appreciate the Machiavellian nature of this play. Trump has put the Dems & GOPe on the hook for delivering DACA, while then having to explain why they couldn't solve anything else. I'm sure the Union supporters are wondering where that Infrastructure spending is, when it's something Trump & Dems agree on.

Blogger Matthew Funk September 14, 2017 7:27 AM  

The presence of a wall would make the threat of deportation much more significant. Limited amnesty compromises in the interim, while far from ideal, can be forgiven if they actually serve the purpose of closing the wound. Honestly, it's a miracle we have as much hope as we do. The Trump election wasn't victory, simply a beach head.

Blogger Stilicho September 14, 2017 7:27 AM  

Plenty of "good, educated, accomplished" Mexicans living in Mexico too per Fred, let them join their countrymen. If Trump, or anyone else, truly wants to live among them, move to Mexico with them. It isn't difficult (and Fred claims the water is fine!).

Blogger Cail Corishev September 14, 2017 7:33 AM  

The narrative-building came hot and heavy last night, but the claims about what happened didn't even all match up. That tells me they're trying to get ahead of something that's actually a big win for Trump by portraying it in advance as a loss.

The alternative is to think that Donald Trump was snookered in a negotiation by Nancy Pelosi and Charles Schumer on his biggest issue. Or we're back to the NeverTrump "secret Democrat" theories. Or the "he's being poisoned" theory. I'm not sure which is more implausible.

Blogger Cail Corishev September 14, 2017 7:36 AM  

Sorry, I can't buy into the 4D chess theory that much.

That strawman is getting tattered. You have to call it 32D chess to get the same effect now.

Anonymous vfm September 14, 2017 7:44 AM  

No problem with the wall, though it seems to be a distraction regarding the MQ(Mexican question) that can be answered just as well with a vigorous enforcement of existing law including no social benefits for immigrants and throwing in an Operation Wetback 2.0

Anonymous Looking Glass September 14, 2017 7:47 AM  

@Cail Corishev:

Trump has never been harsh on the DACA people here (or at least the ones they can run out for the cameras, which is why this was always a sticky issue), but it's the optics he has to worry about. DACA was always going to be the nasty one, but Trump has set DACA into a descending orbit to burn up in the atmosphere.

How? By killing it by 1000 cuts and putting the blame on Congress, and they can't get away with it when all of the rest of the issues haven't been addressed. It's on a glide path to end, it's a matter of preventing anyone from stopping it. Trump has positioned himself in such a way that complaints can't be leveled at him about it.

As I said, I don't have to like it, but this is a very Machiavellian play. He's basically doing the Chad-based "stop hitting yourself, stop hitting yourself" while punching someone with their own fist. Watch, the GOPe will clearly fall for it. That seems to be pretty much their job description at this point.

Blogger Arthur Isaac September 14, 2017 7:47 AM  

The way the globohomos work is bad cop, worse cop. 1 shiv out, 2 shivs in. Maybe we could get a couple more Goldman-Sachs employees into the administration to MAGA?

But at least he's "alpha".

Blogger Salt September 14, 2017 7:49 AM  

That Trump needs to even go to the Ds shows the Rs to be totally incapable of working with him. He has to appear to be working towards his goals. He can't back-burner the Wall till next summer and mid-terms.

Blogger Stilicho September 14, 2017 8:02 AM  

Just tell the demoncrats they need a wall to keep white people in...

Blogger StrawMan September 14, 2017 8:03 AM  

Vox, I think it is mindless optimism. How many of your posts have said "this doesn't look good but try not to draw conclusions"? Trump is to the left of most people on immigration, for some reason his alt-right supporters attributed positions to him that aren't his. He always said he'd make a deal on dreamers. The WH recently said he supports amnesty. The wall won't get built. I want it to be, but it won't.

Blogger peter blandings September 14, 2017 8:04 AM  

There are only two possibilities here: 1) trump’s life, and/or, the lives of his family have been credibly threatened to the extent that he is willing to reverse all his policies during the campaign and do whatever he is told by whomever it is who is making the threat.

Or 2) trump really is the mentally unbalanced, incompetent, unqualified clown that the media and the establishment, including his own party members, said he was for the entire 18 months of the campaign.

That's it. There are no other possible explanations. If it’s the first option, I believe the first threats came before the GOP convention when it began to look like he could actually win the nomination.

in either case you're not doing trump any favors by trusting or indulging him. if the first option is the case, the threat has to be made public and as high profile as possible to lessen the survivability of the perps. the fact that he hasn't figured out how to neutralize the threat by now indicates he's not as bright as we think and he needs help. if it's the second option is true, he has to be persuaded that he will be the most hated man in america for the rest of his life if he doesn't adhere to his campaign principles. in any case, the whole GE bullshit should be stopped immediately.

Blogger Cail Corishev September 14, 2017 8:05 AM  

(and Fred claims the water is fine!)

Also, Mexico says it wants them and will treat them as returning heroes. At this point, deporting the DACAs is a win for everyone except the Democrats they were (illegally) voting for.

That's not to say it isn't negotiable. I'd trade DACA in a second for an end to chain migration and birthright citizenship, because those will kill the nation in the long run. But those would have to be done deals, not promises, obviously.

Anonymous Mandos September 14, 2017 8:08 AM  

Heh. He may well be clueless after all. Gonna find out soon enough I guess.

See that's the good thing with big beautiful walls. You can't fuck around with a big beautiful wall. It either is or isn't. There is no such thing as a virtual wall. Trump's warranty, more than ever. Either he delivers, or we're directly headed towards civil war.

That being said I am still on the gaslighting side. Trump may as well be playing innocent here, it's such a good bait for the media. That amnesty is a little price to pay IF it is followed by the wall and a midterms triumph. Avoids the witch hunt of deportation forces roaming the country, which can easily be framed against him, while making the Dems accountable. I will call betrayal if he caves on the wall, not before.

Blogger Bob Ramar September 14, 2017 8:09 AM  

The Wall is nothing if it is shot through with holes, doors, tunnels, etc. Canada seems to control immigration very effectively without a wall. The real question is 'are there any points of leverage that 'we the people' can use to get our elected officials to do the right thing by the citizens of this country'? It is not looking good that there is a way.

The US Chamber of Commerce wants unfettered immigration. The Republican Party donor class wants the cheap labor. The Democrat donor class wants the votes and patronage. It remains to be seen what President Trump really wants but from my perspective the likelihood of a double cross seems more and more likely.

The '16 points' need to get 'out there' in the public eye. State party apparatus needs to put up new candidates to run against the incumbents (this means organization and funding ... and I don't see any out there). Some media exists to support a nationalist movement (Breitbart, Daily Caller, etc.) but it is not well known. What has happened historically in times like these is the rise of a charismatic personality who appears to have answers to the obvious problems who rides a popular wave of support to leadership.

After a time you find you have elected a Mussolini (Make the trains run on time) or a Hitler (Lebensraum) or a Castro (Run the Colonialists out). Then you have a real problem.

What to do?

Blogger Cail Corishev September 14, 2017 8:10 AM  

Trump has never been harsh on the DACA people here

Right. There's no need to be, and it looks better to keep the focus on enforcing the law impersonally. Although that one woman who was crying to the cameras, who /pol/ discovered is illegally registered to vote and contributed to and worked in Bernie's campaign, should be exposed far and wide as one of their "law-abiding" DACAs. That's not for the president to do himself, though.

Anonymous Looking Glass September 14, 2017 8:11 AM  

@peter blandings:

You should charge less. You're not very good at this. Give your paymasters a bargain for the failure-mode shilling.

@Cail:

At the moment, any DACA deal is actually bad. Trump needs Immigration rolling as a topic throughout the primary & general elections. He needs to hamstring both sides of the UniParty. No one talks about the intra-Democrat war, but it's raging as well. The Clintons still hold control of the party, and the Hillary/Bernie split in the party is quite real.

The Primary season is going to be insane. And awesome, but a lot of insane.

Anonymous Anonymous September 14, 2017 8:12 AM  

Trump seems to gaslight every side.
I find that encouraging. I will wait and see.

Blogger Josh (the sexiest thing here) September 14, 2017 8:23 AM  

At the moment, any DACA deal is actually bad. Trump needs Immigration rolling as a topic throughout the primary & general elections. He needs to hamstring both sides of the UniParty. No one talks about the intra-Democrat war, but it's raging as well. The Clintons still hold control of the party, and the Hillary/Bernie split in the party is quite real.

That reminds me of the very dumb Karl Rove plan to create a permanent majority by coopting the dems on issues.

Blogger James Dixon September 14, 2017 8:30 AM  

> Does anybody really want to throw out good, educated and accomplished young people who have jobs, some serving in the military? Really!.....

What part of "a nation of laws, not a nation of men." is escaping him? They're here illegally. They have to go back.

> He also says existing fences are part of the 'wall.'

Because they are, at the moment. They're not part of the final way, merely its current status.

> But I'm done supporting Trump.

That's fine. We don't care.

> There are only two possibilities here...

Possibility number three: Trump is not Hillary. Yeah, that still seems to be the case.

Anonymous Avalanche September 14, 2017 8:32 AM  

Maybe we should start a "twitter storm" to @realDonaldTrump reminding him we're out here and we WANT the DACA illegals sent back! That we elected him TO send them back! That the Wall is non-negotiable -- AND sending back ALL illegals!

I just tweeted him:
Is it MAGA to "keep" nearly ONE MILLION DACA illegals instead of giving jobs to nearly ONE MILLION Americans?!
and
Was it Google or Apple that said they'd have 70,000 JOBS for AMERICANS when their DACA Illegals get sent home! MAGA!

And I will keep doing so and I don't "tweet"; never have. I HOPE that many many people will do so -- and maybe it will reach him? Behind damned Kelly's complete firewall?!

Anonymous Rollory September 14, 2017 8:32 AM  

If the goal is to finish destroying any shred of legitimacy for the current political structure and set the stage for a continent-wide Yugoslav-style war, then yes, this will work.

WRSA published the best take on that I've ever seen, which everyone interested in these topics should absolutely read:

http://tinyurl.com/brackencw2

Anonymous Anonymous September 14, 2017 8:39 AM  

Whence all the new commenters with their doleful analyses? ...

Anonymous Looking Glass September 14, 2017 8:39 AM  

@Josh:

I don't think it's in the Rovian "don't actually get anything done" matrix of approaches. Cnogress doesn't actually write laws anymore, so there is no Trump-aligned groups writing laws to sell around on the place. DACA is actually something the GOPe wants, thus it sitting out there hurts the GOPe going into the Primary season.

Trump is actually playing the Dems' normal game against the GOPe. Right down to the "what about the children?" play. HAHA.

Blogger James Dixon September 14, 2017 8:41 AM  

> Whence all the new commenters with their doleful analyses? ...

Oh, they've been here forever and loyal Trump supporters the entire time. Just ask them.

Anonymous JAG September 14, 2017 8:50 AM  

No wall in 2020, and no vote for Trump, or anyone else for that matter. No point anymore if things turn out like that.

Anonymous Looking Glass September 14, 2017 8:50 AM  

https://twitter.com/polNewsInfinity/status/905269726099714048

This is from a bit ago, but it's pretty much playing out exactly as was stated.


@James Dixon:

T_D hit 100k active users for a few minutes. It's a Shill Flood. But MAGA is stronger.

Blogger ECM September 14, 2017 8:50 AM  

Avalanche wrote:Maybe we should start a "twitter storm" to @realDonaldTrump reminding him we're out here and we WANT the DACA illegals sent back! That we elected him TO send them back! That the Wall is non-negotiable -- AND sending back ALL illegals!

I just tweeted him:

Is it MAGA to "keep" nearly ONE MILLION DACA illegals instead of giving jobs to nearly ONE MILLION Americans?!

and

Was it Google or Apple that said they'd have 70,000 JOBS for AMERICANS when their DACA Illegals get sent home! MAGA!

And I will keep doing so and I don't "tweet"; never have. I HOPE that many many people will do so -- and maybe it will reach him? Behind damned Kelly's complete firewall?!


You should *always* respond to him on Twitter when he says/does anything, good or bad. It's 99% certain he has those responses data-mined. Unlike polling or rally attendance, this sort of thing is real-time and gives him a sense, in near-real-time, where the lay of the land, err, lies.

The only other thing I'd add is to keep your responses straightforward an unambiguous, so t software sifting through those response doesn't have to 'guess' what you mean.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan September 14, 2017 9:05 AM  

If the D party ex-mayor from Seattle is any indicator of course the D party is for the "children."

Blogger Bodo Staron September 14, 2017 9:07 AM  

James Woods just tweeted this out:
"We elected a Republican President, Republican House, and Republican Senate. And the Democrats still run the show."

Someone please explain American politics to me.

Blogger Abyssus Invocat September 14, 2017 9:11 AM  

You've got a point there. If the Dems can't get a deal done after announcing that Trump gave up the wall to get it, they're toast with THEIR base. He's got them in the position the GOPe has been in forever, their only choice will be looking like liars or looking like fools. It is up up to us though to hold Trump's feet to the fire.

Blogger wreckage September 14, 2017 9:13 AM  

Simple analysis.
Regardless of final outcome:

The Repubs have demonstrated that they will not back Trump.
Trump is demonstrating that he doesn't need them.
Remember the Repub establishment is AGAINST "MAGA" and all of its components.

Broadly speaking, the Repub establishment defines alt-right: alt-right is "everything but those establishment pricks".

Blogger Mr.MantraMan September 14, 2017 9:14 AM  

First of all this 4D Chess thing is some spergy intellectual crap, Trump don't care about no spergy dipshittery.

Trump knows women and how they operate and America's public politics are as womanish as mimosa brunches.

"How do we save America Mr. Shakespeare?", says young shitlord. "Thy young shitlord we slay all the spergy fappers and elect a pussy slayer in their stead." sayeth Bill S.

Blogger Abyssus Invocat September 14, 2017 9:20 AM  

The backing away begins;'
Schumer's communications director Matt House responded that Trump "made clear he would continue pushing the wall, just not as part of this agreement."

Blogger David September 14, 2017 9:21 AM  

The Deep State wants endless war, endless cheap labor, and endless surveillance. Anything less is evil to them.

Blogger Cail Corishev September 14, 2017 9:24 AM  

At the moment, any DACA deal is actually bad.

Well, any deal they're likely to have offered at this early stage would probably be bad. But if they offered a deal where he gets everything else he wants on immigration -- signed and sealed, not promises -- in exchange for DACA, he could sign it and ensure reelection in 2020, then move on to the rest of his agenda.

Blogger Timmy3 September 14, 2017 9:27 AM  

Trump is suggesting he is building the wall without Congressional funding. Is he doing it by executive orders?

"The WALL, which is already under construction in the form of new renovation of old and existing fences and walls, will continue to be built."

Then he doesn't need a deal, but who knows what his true intentions. There should still be no DACA law short of getting all his priorities in exchange.

Blogger wreckage September 14, 2017 9:28 AM  

I can't see any Trump issue where Vox has said "wait and see" and not proven prescient.

Anonymous damntull September 14, 2017 9:29 AM  

Yes we do! Good, educated and accomplished young Americans will take their places. They were ours to begin with!

Blogger wreckage September 14, 2017 9:36 AM  

A thought, for the doomier inclined: if we take Vox's doomiest projections, and remember any such projection could beout by a few years or a few stressors; if we consider Trump's tweet mentioning "serving in the armed forces";

there's a risk scenario wherein Trump is, right now, tiptoeing around, if not civil war, then unrest and violence. It is imperative that he, MAGA, and secure borders not be the trigger in the eyes of the common man; since this would discredit all - look at the damage the ghost of Hitler continues to do to pro-family policies in Germany.

I don't believe mass, forced, deportations are going to be necessary or desirable, BUT, if the crisis is so well developed as to make them inevitable, it make zero sense to criticize Trump for acting like he's the President of a nation on the cusp of a history-making crisis flashpoint.

Blogger tuberman September 14, 2017 9:36 AM  

I wrote two tweets to PDJT

Yes, we want them out
and
DACA, not DEAL, it's a compromise, and it will not stop

Anonymous Looking Glass September 14, 2017 9:40 AM  

One subtle point about the Wall: the law was already passed a long, long time ago. It's only funding for updates to Version Trump that would be at issue. Plus, there's a need for different styles in different areas, given terrain realities. Which is why they're going to build 8 test sections here very soon.

The Wall is the law of the land already, but funding it, upgrading parts and completing it are the Trump tasks.

Blogger wreckage September 14, 2017 9:46 AM  

Prediction: the media establishment is beginning to develop scenario-narratives that will portray the wall as a failure, as not REALLY existing.

Reason: the Wall is a fait accompli, but absolutely must not be permitted to "win". Even an ineffective wall symbolically closes the border, exactly what the establishment has insisted is IMPOSSIBLE. That has been their final point, every time; it can't be done, nothing LIKE it can be done, NOTHING can be done at all, ever.

Trump gets so much as a roll of razor wire along a big enough stretch, he destroys that carefully nurtured "reality".

Blogger wreckage September 14, 2017 9:46 AM  

(Riffing on Looking Glass's comment)

Anonymous BBGKB September 14, 2017 9:52 AM  

I hope this is just TRUMP waving the laser pointer in front of the cat lady media. Especially since he expertly positioned DACA as a 2018 election poison pill earlier.

Does anybody really want to throw out good, educated and accomplished young people who have jobs, some serving in the military?

Someone needs to give him an honest assessment, sounds like he is drinking the "Steve Sailor proven fake Valedictorian" kool aid

"We elected a Republican President, Republican House, and Republican Senate. And the Democrats still run the show."Someone please explain American politics to me.

(((Pizzagate)))!!!

Blogger Wynn Lloyd September 14, 2017 9:57 AM  

Exactly.
He is a counterweight to all the gaslighting from the fake news media.
I made a strong case to alt-Reich guys that VD is the best intellectual we have right now, and that he generally is right way more often than 95% of people.
I think I got through to them. We will see when I talk to them later today.

VD has kept me from freaking out multiple times, due to his somehow knowing the president's mental state and tactics, which I don't really grasp but turns out to be correct every time.

Anonymous Santos September 14, 2017 10:02 AM  

"Anyone still pretending that he's not actively betraying his promises is delusional. The best that can be said is that he's clueless and may go back to opposing amnesty again."

Of course he's betraying his promises. But it's not a matter of him abandoning principle. It's a matter of him having no understanding of American politics and his campaign penchant for making grand claims without any sense of what is possible, let alone a sense of the modern history of American politics.

To put it another way: This man is untrustworthy because he's unaccomplished and untutored in the various roles he's required to play.

Anonymous Casey September 14, 2017 10:06 AM  

More than the wall or illegal immigration is at stake.

If Trump alienates his base to the extent that the Democrats take the White House in 2020, They will immediately turn Texas blue with citizenship and voting rights for illegals and this country will go full blown Commie forever.

*This* administration has to fix illegal immigration, end Muslim immigration, and build the wall or it will be planting the seeds for the ruination of the country,...and they will be damn fast growing seeds.

Blogger newbietrader September 14, 2017 10:08 AM  

"these initial reports of a deal on DACA look almost spectacularly stupid on the part of the President:


I TOLD YOU DURING THE PRIMARY THAT ILLEGAL EMPLOYING TRUMP WAS PRO AMNESTY. but you maga trumpeteers didn't listen cause you were to busy screaming about a wall I told you was NEVER going to be built. thanks a lot tumpeteers for electing another azz wipe who will sell us don the river


and no i am not a never trumper or a cruz bot so save your "not an argument" memes

Blogger Cail Corishev September 14, 2017 10:20 AM  

It's interesting how the gaslighting works. A source in the Pelosi/Schumer camp says Trump agreed in principle to something something. Nothing on paper, nothing signed, just a vague agreement to agree. Now, if that was just Pelosi coming out and saying that, we'd laugh at her. It would be obvious what she's trying to do, and she's a known liar anyway. But it gets picked up and reported by dozens of different media outlets, and suddenly it seems more real.

Why? They're all just reporting on each other's reports about one initial report. Why does the fact that a claim is being repeated by multiple people give it more impact? It shouldn't, but it does.

i am not a never trumper or a cruz bot

Then what's your excuse?

Blogger ((( bob kek mando ))) - ( i'm sorry you raped Andrea Dworkin and i disavow your Patriarchal Cisheteronormative Bourgeois Consciousness in shame ) September 14, 2017 10:21 AM  

VD September 14, 2017 5:44 AM
We have no need of another excuse-making Republican who points to deals with Democrats as accomplishments.



this.

if Trump didn't mean to enforce immigration Law and build the Wall, we don't have any reason to vote for him.

we've already got GOPe cucks in DC who can handle that job.

and Democrats are openly for opening the border anyways, so there's no solution there.

Anonymous Philalethes September 14, 2017 10:22 AM  

I don't know what Donald Trump knows. I suspect he doesn't know everything VD knows, or many of the commenters here know. Nevertheless, (though I may be wrong) I still think that he is an honest man – i.e. he meant what he said during the election – and that he loves his country and wants to save it. However, he is up against a situation that few if any other men have ever faced.

We've all been trained to see the US President as a kind of emperor, who rules simply by decree: Thus it shall be, he says, and so it is. However, what seems to be forgotten is that the Imperial Presidency is merely the figurehead of the Establishment (aka "deep state") that actually runs the country. So the Bushes, Clinton et al. could look like they are ruling by decree, because their decrees are what their real bosses want to happen, and the entire DC power structure is ready to implement them.

So what happens when the President is not part of the power structure, but is opposed to it? He is a man alone, in the midst of an arena full of vipers.

The American people, or half of them, elected Trump to "drain the swamp". Unfortunately, however, they didn't elect anybody to help him. As we have seen, nearly everybody in DC (which voted, what was it, 98% for Hillary?) – including nearly all the members of what is supposed to be his own party – is totally opposed to him, and will do everything they can to block what he wants to do.

The news story says "It remains to be seen how conservatives’ loyalty to Trump…." As Vox keeps pointing out, "conservatives" have no loyalty to Trump – nor to any real conservative values. I don't know if it's because they're all addicted to pizza, or what, but it's clear they are all owned by the power structure, and do its bidding.

So Trump is in a spot. What if he gives an order and everybody around him simply ignores it? That's already been happening in small ways, but what if it were a big item – say, the Wall? How does it make him look if it becomes obvious that he – the "alpha" emperor – is finally simply impotent (in the literal meaning of the term)? (I don't think it's accidental that the MSM keeps pointing out that "real" Republicans are opposed to him.)

There are several possible interpretations of recent events: (a) Trump is a phony, has been from the beginning, is really just another front for the Deep State. But if so, why did the DS put him in place, when Hillary was obviously their Chosen One? (b) Trump had good intentions, but has been gradually (and rather quickly) influenced by those around him (including the traitors in his own family) to abandon them and get with the program. This scenario, however, doesn't seem to fit with the clever, devious (though not dishonest) Donald Trump we know from his incredibly successful business career.

[Continued…]

Anonymous Philalethes September 14, 2017 10:24 AM  

Or maybe (c)? Finding himself alone in a very dangerous (possibly fatal) situation, he is doing everything he can simply to survive – long enough to see if the American people who put him in office will come through with enough actual, tangible support to allow him to actually get something done. And part of that strategy could be to cave enough to get his base angry enough to actually do something, rather than just complaining that he's not getting it done all by himself.

I think the real turning point – if there is one – will be the 2018 midterm elections. Trump came on the scene so suddenly in 2016 that there wasn't time for more than one or two supportive congressional candidates to give it a try – and, as in the case of the guy who ran against Paul Ryan, they didn't get anywhere. The American people have been programmed for a long time. But many have been waking up in the last year, and probably many more will be awakened in the next.

The story is far from over. In fact, it's hardly begun. Even if Trump fails – for whatever reason – as VD keeps pointing out, change is coming. We hope it can be relatively peaceful, but if so that will be an exception in human history. Worth trying for, but far from a sure thing.

Finally, a thought from Swami Satchidananda that I've found useful to keep in mind: "The way to not be disappointed is to not make any appointments."

Anonymous Long time reader first time poster September 14, 2017 10:24 AM  

Oh golly gosh almitely a nice man on TV told me that Trump is comPLETEly caving in on DACA and the wall won't be built after all and I really supported Trump all of last year but now I'm having second thoughts! It's all over!

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents September 14, 2017 10:27 AM  

newbietrader
and no i am not a never trumper or a cruz bot

You're a room-temperature IQ concern troll.

Blogger wreckage September 14, 2017 10:30 AM  

Room temperature in Centigrade, at that.

Anonymous Anonymous September 14, 2017 10:41 AM  

And Trump supposedly commented to reporters this morning "The wall will come later."

https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2017/09/14/game-over-trump-to-reporters-on-his-way-to-florida-the-wall-will-come-later/


Which means he gave away DACA for nothing.

I did not sign up to a personality cult. I support policy, not people.

We have been betrayed. No other way to frame it.

Blogger Cail Corishev September 14, 2017 10:47 AM  

The news story says "It remains to be seen how conservatives’ loyalty to Trump…."

And there's the point of this, the point of every story they run anymore: prying conservatives (which the media defines as anyone to the right of Jon Stewart) away from the president. The goal is to drive away his anti-DACA supporters, so he will feel like he has nothing to gain by catering to them anymore, and give away DACA for whatever the Democrats will give him for it.

Which means they're still trying to put him in the box of "conventional politician." Good.

Blogger PD Quig September 14, 2017 10:51 AM  

My letter this morning to the White House. It is not negativity--it is intended to give him the data he needs to negotiate with the swamp. If we don't melt down the WH and congressional phone lines and make clear what the people's position is on this, Trump won't have the backing he needs to look at them all, shrug, and say, "Look at what the people say. They insist on tough reforms. I simply cannot sign this legislation without that."

---------------------------------------

Mr. President,

If you go along with the donor / globalist class and sign DACA amnesty without tough immigration enforcement measures... WE WILL DESTROY YOUR PRESIDENCY. We will run your congressional accomplices out of office in 2018 and then we will run you out of office in 2020.

So far, you have gotten away with shaving the promises you made to get elected. IT ENDS WITH THIS ISSUE. If you sign an amnesty bill without conditioning it on legislation that does the following, you will have proven that you're part of the swamp and will have to be disposed of:

1. Building the wall
2. Implementing 100% e-Verify with severe penalties for violations
3. A nationwide system for aggressively policing visa overstays
4. Eliminating H1-B visas for positions that American workers can fill
5. Prioritizing immigrants who are LEGAL, educated, and entrepreneurial and eliminating chain immigration except for immediate family (e.g., father, mother, brothers, sisters)
6. Deporting all criminal illegal aliens (e.g., convicted of more than one misdemeanor crime). Cut off access to American markets to countries who refuse to accept their criminals back

There is more, but you get the idea (I think).

You have let Hillary and the Clinton Foundation slide. You have let Lois Lerner, Koskinen, and the IRS slide. You have let John Brennan, Susan Rice, and Samantha Power slide. You have not only let Comey slide, you have allowed him to kill the momentum of your legislative agenda by tangling you up in the Mueller witch hunt. You have allowed the Obama holdovers in the DoJ continue to push Obama's agenda under the covers. You have allowed the Obama holdovers in the Department of State continue to push Obama's agenda under the covers. You have let McMaster erase "radical Islamic terrorism" from the White House lexicon again--and have let him purge the NSC staff that agreed with your campaign national security positions only to replace them with those who supported Obama's natsec policies.

Those of us who actually voted for you have become increasingly restive as your first term has veered away from your campaign promises. It is not enough that you are not Hillary Clinton. We will not countenance you rolling over on amnesty for illegal aliens unless the hammer comes down on serious, pro-America immigration reforms and enforcement. The reforms and enforcement mechanisms must ACCOMPANY OR PRECEDE amnesty. Bait and switch will not work again.

Do the right thing by your country.

Blogger Steampunk Koala September 14, 2017 10:54 AM  

I said from the beginning, Trump is a litmus test. If a man with no ties to big donors, trained as one of the most persuasive businessmen in history, and with what looks like a genuine love of country, is incapable of turning the boat around, all that it means is that we're too far gone to fix without a good old fashioned watering of the tree of Liberty. He said all the right things, I think his heart's in the right place, but the machine is designed specifically to stop that kind of person from making headway.

Trump was never going to fix the whole thing himself. All he was ever going to do was buy time to fix it. The government candidates for my states' 2018 election cycle demonstrate clearly that this isn't a fight one man can win. We have to put people amenable to Trump's agenda in during the midterm, or else the cucks in there now will see it as an Obama style mandate to stop Trump at any cost.

The fight, as they say, is far from over.

Anonymous FP September 14, 2017 10:55 AM  

Good Lord, the whinging. Well, it gives us something to gab on about for a day or two. Wake me up when we have said poison pill bill on Trump's desk being signed. Until then, excuse me if I take this all as gas lighting and game playing.

Oh, and yes, I'll take DACA for an actual wall and no new immigrants. Yes, it will probably be 2-3 million and not 800k but then, who will be handling all of these dreamer cases hmm? A Trump INS. Hmm, 800k+ versus 10+ million others.

Oh, and if CONgress gets DACA passed but not Obamacare repeal, infrastructure or even national concealed carry? Yeah, that won't lead to primary problems for GOPe.

Anonymous Ain September 14, 2017 10:59 AM  

"Trump knows his name is trash with half the country."

That's the exaggerated media narrative. They need show very little to pretend it's engulfed the whole country. Hillary was a shoo-in, too.

Blogger Arthur Isaac September 14, 2017 11:01 AM  

Do we still have mentally ill gender cultists in the military? Why is that?

U.S. is over. There is no standard to be upheld or measure to grade Trump by, just another 4-8 years of soft concessions rather than 4-8 years of wholesale sell-out.

Making other arrangements is long overdue.

Anonymous johnc September 14, 2017 11:01 AM  

The president is making this a lot more complicated than it needs to be. It reminds me of the healthcare debacle, which was one of the easier "big problems" to solve.

Blogger Feather Blade September 14, 2017 11:03 AM  

Does anybody really want to throw out good, educated and accomplished young people who have jobs, some serving in the military? Really!.....

Mexico needs those people more than the US does. And Vincente Fox wants them back!

Blogger roughcoat September 14, 2017 11:10 AM  

Most of the Trump supporters I see on Twitter already saying "yeah, I guess DACA is okay" are women. It's "too cruel" to send them back.

Repeal the 19th.

Blogger S1AL September 14, 2017 11:22 AM  

Trump is setting up a question:

How much does his base want DACA to go, and what are we willing to exchange to reach a compromise on immigration issues.

I know that's going to piss a lot of people off, but we elected the deal-maker. I suspect that what we'll end up with is some sort of compromise on DACA in exchange for The Wall. And, frankly, I would trade legal permanent residency (automatically terminated for felons) for DACA if it means a wall and increased general deportations. That's a stop-gap, but it's progress.

Blogger ((( bob kek mando ))) - ( i'm sorry you raped Andrea Dworkin and i disavow your Patriarchal Cisheteronormative Bourgeois Consciousness in shame ) September 14, 2017 11:24 AM  

Arthur Isaac September 14, 2017 11:01 AM
Do we still have mentally ill gender cultists in the military? Why is that?



look up the after action reports on both of those Navy ship crashes.

both ships didn't have their bridge crew tested or trained to certification.

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/military/guest-voices/sd-me-callendar-collisions-navy-20170912-story.html

the Japanese cargo ship had right-of-way when the destroyer made a sudden turn across it's bow ... and then IGNORED all attempts at signalling by the cargo captain.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/cargo-captain-warned-u-s-warship-crash-article-1.3278642

the budget issue / lack of training may or may not predate the Obama era. it is certain that the Obama presidency was a huge handicap in this area.

Anonymous Brick Hardslab September 14, 2017 11:30 AM  

If he budges an inch it will be taken as a green light and all the self deportation will end.

It will be worse than Hillary because the republicans would have fought her on the worst of it. Now Trump serves as a stalking horse. It's almost as if he took his own party's grasping, resistance, and recalcitrant posturing seriously and realized both sides were part of the same one party state. He's a businessman if one guy can't do what he needs he'll find someone else.

Anonymous sausage party planet September 14, 2017 11:36 AM  

Just deport the men only. Seems to me like there are about a billion too many men in the world at the moment.

Blogger Robert Divinity September 14, 2017 11:38 AM  

Steve Bannon had it right. The Trump presidency ended the day Bannon was fired. He now is nothing more than George W. Bush, and I say that as someone who always has taken a cautious approach to Trump's maneuvers. His new-found friends still will impeach him and his base will abandon him.

Trump has become a dupe. I never thought I would write that.

Anonymous Panzer Man September 14, 2017 11:52 AM  

Arthur Isaac wrote:Do we still have mentally ill gender cultists in the military? Why is that?

U.S. is over. There is no standard to be upheld or measure to grade Trump by, just another 4-8 years of soft concessions rather than 4-8 years of wholesale sell-out.

Making other arrangements is long overdue.


Yep. These are the final days of the Roman Empire, and Trump is either just another weird, futile emperor or is under the thumb of the Praetorian Guard.

Time to start thinking of the city-states and kingdoms, so to speak, that will follow, and not the carcass of the Empire, which cannot be rescued.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents September 14, 2017 11:53 AM  

Cail Corishev
A source in the Pelosi/Schumer camp says Trump agreed in principle to something something

Well, if we can't trust Nancy Pelosi and Charles Schumer to tell the truth, who can we trust?

Blogger Cail Corishev September 14, 2017 11:56 AM  

If he budges an inch it will be taken as a green light and all the self deportation will end.

That's the worst thing about anything that smells like amnesty, or even too much amnesty talk: the media will shout as loud as possible to invaders who are here that they should stay put and wait, and to invaders on the outside to GET IN NOW. The Left, unlike the defeatists, still thinks he's going to tighten the border and deport people, so they want to attract/keep as many invaders as possible to make that job as difficult as possible.

Blogger Demonic Professor El September 14, 2017 11:59 AM  

Panzer Man wrote:Yep. These are the final days of the Roman Empire, and Trump is either just another weird, futile emperor or is under the thumb of the Praetorian Guard.

Time to start thinking of the city-states and kingdoms, so to speak, that will follow, and not the carcass of the Empire, which cannot be rescued.


As optimistic as I am about Trump, I've always felt that Trump's biggest use was in buying time (4-8 years) for us to prepare - whether that's stocking up, buying property, setting up alternative businesses - for the inevitable crash.

He may succeed in the long run because so much of the Globalist agenda is flimsy and relies on largesse from the West. A national Voter ID Act and actual deportation would solve a lot of the US's problems. But the rot is deep.

As for the Roman Empire - a lot of Romans saw the endless corruption and insanity of the imperial state, and welcomed the Germans as virtuous rescuers.

We, the New Right, are the baugradae.

Blogger Nationalist Flicka September 14, 2017 12:07 PM  

Trump did not write that tweet.

Something is not right.

Blogger DonReynolds September 14, 2017 12:08 PM  

“We agreed to enshrine the protections of DACA into law quickly, and to work out a package of border security, excluding the wall, that’s acceptable to both sides,” Pelosi and Schumer said in a joint statement.

TRANSLATION to American English....
Donald Trump has promised us (Schumer and Pelosi) that WE get to make all the decisions about immigration in his administration and WE do not have to agree to nothing except what WE want. That is why WE are laughing.

Once again.....illegal aliens are not immigrants of any sort, under US law. The ONLY immigrants in the USA are those who came to this country legally, otherwise they are subject to deportation. DACA Dreamers are illegal aliens, no matter how they got here or who brought them or how long they have mooched off of this country. DACA Dreamers (AND THEIR PARENTS, who brought them) need to be deported ASAP. This country will do fine without them.

Blogger Arthur Isaac September 14, 2017 12:15 PM  

I've always felt that Trump's biggest use was in buying time (4-8 years) for us to prepare - whether that's stocking up, buying property, setting up alternative businesses - for the inevitable crash.

That's what I'm seeing. Is that Trump is exposing the fact that no man can change the course we are on. The lawfare and the resistance on the left means that this country is ungovernable. That's what he's exposed. And there are still long odds that he can stave off the globalists long enough to keep them off our necks a little during the coming crisis. That's really what I'm hoping for. The crisis clearly isn't going to be averted.

Blogger Cail Corishev September 14, 2017 12:16 PM  

President Trump an hour or so ago in Florida: "We're not looking at citizenship, we're not looking at amnesty. We're looking at allowing people to stay.." and "If we don't have the wall, we're doing nothing."

People might be forgetting what DACA is. It's not amnesty; it didn't even include a "path to citizenship." It was just a way to give certain illegals "temporary" immunity from deportation. People are suddenly talking about amnesty and new citizens, but the DACAs don't necessarily even want to be citizens. That's not what they've been clamoring for. They're Mexican and other foreign nationals who want the benefits of living and working in the USA for now, but that doesn't mean they want to be American. If I were an American living in Japan on a DACA-type deal, that wouldn't mean I wanted Japanese citizenship. I might want to retire to America someday.

I want to see them deported, but if he extends the deal they already had so they can stay in their quasi-legal state, in exchange for the Wall or something else important, that's not amnesty or making 2-3 million new citizens. If we fixed birthright citizenship so it doesn't apply to illegal parents (a much more important issue long-term), it wouldn't create any new citizens at all.

Anonymous TD September 14, 2017 12:18 PM  

I thought that the previous administration tried (and failed) to justify DACA order/policy as an expansion of legal discretion. I do not remember DACA being a piece of actual legislation. If the current administration ended DACA, they would still keep discretion & could use it (correctly) for those serving in the military if they so chose.

If the country is going to remain as one, the starting point for negotiations needs to be enforce the law and the borders, then we'll see about the rest.

Blogger DonReynolds September 14, 2017 12:20 PM  

I wonder why the 14th amendment has not been invoked in this matter. Everyone is guaranteed "equal protection of the law", so there should be a challenge in this matter....

Specifically, why should DACA Dreamers (and their parents) be exempted from deportation for years, while many thousands of others were deported at the same time?

The United States Supreme Court must ultimately decide if deportation is a lawful remedy for illegal aliens forcing or sneaking their way into this country.

If deportation is the legal remedy, then why were some illegal aliens deported and not others, when they are subject to the same laws? In that light, DACA is extremely discriminatory and unfair. "Equal protection under the law" is much more important than the fact that they have avoided deportation for several years.

Yes, I am aware that many will say that illegal aliens do not enjoy the same constitutional guarantees as US citizens. I wish that were true, but it has not been the position of the courts in this country, especially the courts with the Leftist Liberal activist judges.

Anonymous Brick Hardslab September 14, 2017 12:23 PM  

I didn't notice it was Schumer. Trump made a deal with the devil.

If he ever holds another rally the chant of build the wall needs to shake the pillars of heaven.

Blogger centexguy September 14, 2017 12:24 PM  

Scott Adams held two periscopes this morning explaining how this is exactly how Trump negotiates. His point is that Trump hasn't given up anything of value because he wasn't going to build a total wall in the first place and deporting everyone here illegally under DACA was never going to happen. The Democrats are saying they won on these issues to make their base happy but Trump hasn't given up anything real. Trump will get money for more border security although technically he's not building a wall and there's still a lot of negotiation left on DACA.

Anonymous johnc September 14, 2017 12:25 PM  

Has giving up a bird in the hand for two in the bush been a strategy that's ever worked out for us?

Giving the Democrats something in exchange for a "promise" for something in the future is a bad idea.

How about this deal: "When the wall is fully funded and is 50% complete, then we will give you everything you want on DACA." And then when that 50% actually comes, just don't give them DACA.

This is how the Democrats work.

Why do we always have to be the stupid ones?

Anonymous Brick Hardslab September 14, 2017 12:27 PM  

How the hell does an illegal get to serve in the military? Are there no standards? How do they get a clearance for anything? Are they all cooks?

Blogger Demonic Professor El September 14, 2017 12:27 PM  

Arthur Isaac wrote:That's what I'm seeing. Is that Trump is exposing the fact that no man can change the course we are on. The lawfare and the resistance on the left means that this country is ungovernable. That's what he's exposed.

Exactly. Especially when we consider how much of the Left's "antifragility" really depends on cash scams and illicit taxations.

One of the main reasons I liked Trump was he wanted to go after non-profit slush funds. How does one do this? Quietly appoint a few special councils and investigations for the Executive, and get rid of all the fraud. Get rid of DACA? Easy - as an Executive Order, DACA just has to be signed away.

I do understand that direct assaults against the Deep State would not be successful and that our strategy overall is to change a lot of things under the radar - change from the ground up.

But Trump can't cave on the cornerstone of his promise. Even a visa compromise (which have expiration dates) would be better than keeping DACA.

Arthur Isaac wrote:The crisis clearly isn't going to be averted.

Delayed was always the most realistic option.

Blogger S1AL September 14, 2017 12:41 PM  

"How the hell does an illegal get to serve in the military? Are there no standards? How do they get a clearance for anything? Are they all cooks?"

How can you possibly be this ignorant? Military service as a path to citizenship has existed fora long time just in this country, not to mention the historical tradition of foreign legions (it's not just a French thing).

Blogger Robert Divinity September 14, 2017 12:45 PM  

If he ever holds another rally the chant of build the wall needs to shake the pillars of heaven.

If Trump held a rally today he would be booed off the stage.

Anonymous Red sky in morning September 14, 2017 12:46 PM  

But the question is one of an illegal serving in military-- not a legal resident.

Anonymous Gen. Kong September 14, 2017 12:47 PM  

Why do we always have to be the stupid ones?

Because we keep falling for their scams over and over again. Sometimes that rancid stench that smells like a dumpster fire is actually just a dumpster fire - not 16D chess. Sessions, who is turning out to be one of the worst cucks of all time, allowed Lois Lerner to skate. The pizza party remains intact. The Holder letter (you know, the one that exempted all the Banksters from criminal charges for their lawlessness in the great caper of 2008) remains in full force. Countless Clinton-Bush-Obama career criminals remain in their overpaid government jobs, pushing the agenda of the previous regime (Whatever happened to 'draining the swamp'?). Not a single 'Sanctuary City' mayor - openly in violation of law - has even been charged, much less arrested and frog-marched to federal jail. In another dazzling 16-D chess maneuver, GE just signed the resolution passed by the same gang that refused to repeal Obamacare.

How the hell does an illegal get to serve in the military?
Because Max Boot say so, and Jorge Busheron, the Repuke Pizza-Party and the communists all agree. Oh, and the God-Emperor is sending more troops to a place whose well-earned nickname is "Graveyard of Empires" - because Goldman-Sachs say so. Barnhardt's take on the regime looks increasingly accurate. If it's not full-blown kayfabe, the usual suspects have GE neutralized to the point where he's surrendering - in classic Republican style - on issue after issue.

Anonymous Boo Boo Titty Fuck September 14, 2017 12:55 PM  

ZhukovG wrote:

It is the Alt-Right(West) that is the future, not any Civic Nationalist and not any Fake-Right Leftist dupe. Our beloved God Emperor provides us time. Let us each use that time to bring those within our circles of influence into the Alt-Right.

Ad Victoriam! Ave Imperator Trump!


are you fucking retarded?

you are one mentally ill old jew, just like this site owner.

DACA DON should have listened to the smart people.

read: the non-jews that cared about him. the non-jews that got him elected. the non-jews that care about the future of OUR nation.



Blogger S1AL September 14, 2017 12:57 PM  

"But the question is one of an illegal serving in military-- not a legal resident."

And what does DACA do, functionally?

Blogger Robert Divinity September 14, 2017 12:57 PM  

it's not full-blown kayfabe, the usual suspects have GE neutralized to the point where he's surrendering - in classic Republican style - on issue after issue.

This.

There is no need for a full-blown coup d'état when policy coups achieve the same objective. They'll still impeach Trump, though, if the opportunity arises just to send a message.

Anonymous Boo Boo Titty Fuck September 14, 2017 12:59 PM  

Gen. Kong wrote:Because we keep falling for their scams over and over again. Sometimes that rancid stench that smells like a dumpster fire is actually just a dumpster fire - not 16D chess.

but the supreme dark low iq mestizo lord was telling all you old idiots it was the greatest stratego/1488d chess the world has ever seen.

it seems like you all are as retarded and apathetic as we know you to be. bitch, you are the one getting scammed. you all wouldn't know a real master if it was mocking you and giving you inside info. you people deserve nothing but death.

Blogger DonReynolds September 14, 2017 1:19 PM  

S1AL wrote:"How the hell does an illegal get to serve in the military? Are there no standards? How do they get a clearance for anything? Are they all cooks?"

How can you possibly be this ignorant? Military service as a path to citizenship has existed fora long time just in this country, not to mention the historical tradition of foreign legions (it's not just a French thing).


The United States has never had a Foreign Legion, other than the veterans organization....which cannot be compared to any Foreign Legion that ever existed in Europe.

The only persons permitted in the past to join the US military, who were not US citizens already, were from the Philippines....by special legislation, which was a pathway to US citizenship.

It is only recently that the NeoCons have pushed the idea of converting illegal aliens (who are criminals) into citizens through service in the US military. Criminals have traditionally been prohibited from serving in the US military. Recent presidents have used this argument to win support for amnesty for illegal aliens, should they ever take the oath and serve even one day in the military.

It disgusts me to see and hear of these "developments", when a Confederate flag tattoo anywhere on the body will bar the individual from serving in the US military.

Blogger S1AL September 14, 2017 1:23 PM  

@DonReynolds -

http://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/immigrants-us-armed-forces

Long history.

Blogger Jack Ward September 14, 2017 1:24 PM  

I stand with Trump for the Wall.
And, against the carpetbaggers..

Blogger Ken Prescott September 14, 2017 1:27 PM  

I knew a guy who thought that he was born in the USA until he discovered during his background investigation for a Secret clearance that he wasn't, and that his parents were illegal immigrants.

By then he was already a Marine. Ended up getting amnesty under Reagan, retired in 2015 after 30 years as a grunt.

It does happen.

Anonymous Brick Hardslab September 14, 2017 1:31 PM  

S1al

I had assumed the foreigners enlisted in their own country not illegal residents of the U.S.. For instance the navy famously has a good chunk of Filipinos as cooks. I didn't figure they came here illegally to enlist.

Blogger Cail Corishev September 14, 2017 1:33 PM  

I've seen several USAA ads for insurance for military families during sporting events, featuring Hispanic soldiers (with attractive white wives, naturally). Granted, there are many Hispanic citizens, including many in the military, but I wouldn't be surprised if they're also pushing the "Immigrants fight for our freedoms!" narrative. Especially since the men generally have a signifant accent.

Blogger Theproductofafineeduction September 14, 2017 1:34 PM  

It seems that the wall may not be off the table, or at least Trumps press secretary and Trump himself tweeted their isn't any deal as of yet.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/did-trump-strike-a-deal-with-democrats-on-daca-this-is-what-we-know/ar-AArTKHq?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartanntp

Blogger S1AL September 14, 2017 1:36 PM  

"I had assumed the foreigners enlisted in their own country not illegal residents of the U.S.. For instance the navy famously has a good chunk of Filipinos as cooks. I didn't figure they came here illegally to enlist."

DACA made them quasi-legal, and the military is historically as lax as it is legally allowed to be as regards requirements for recruitment (well, some branches). But foreigners enlisting in any military is relatively standard and historically common. This is only odd in account of DACA being odd.

And most people are far more accepting of those immigrants willing to serve in the military.

Blogger S1AL September 14, 2017 1:38 PM  

"I've seen several USAA ads for insurance for military families during sporting events, featuring Hispanic soldiers (with attractive white wives, naturally)."

*nod*

USAA is a business, and recruiting customers from a new customer base is a thing.

Blogger Demonic Professor El September 14, 2017 1:39 PM  

Brick Hardslab wrote:S1al

I had assumed the foreigners enlisted in their own country not illegal residents of the U.S.. For instance the navy famously has a good chunk of Filipinos as cooks. I didn't figure they came here illegally to enlist.


From what I remember offhand, the Philippines had a military agreement with the US, being our colony for a long time and all. But they still had to go through hoops to do it.

They wouldn't be part of the "illegal" part though as that was active cooperation with an ally/colony. And Filipinos are, for the most part, all right. I mean, look at Duterte.

Blogger Cail Corishev September 14, 2017 1:42 PM  

Historically, most of the immigrants in the US military were naturalized citizens, though citizens of certain allies were allowed to join. But one of the "benefits" of DACA was that it made those people eligible for military service. The theory was that recruiters could find language experts and the like among them, but in reality few of them know English or their native language well enough to be useful in that way. It was really just another way to put lipstick on the pig.

Obama's people weren't stupid. They knew if they could get a few of their "Dreamers" into uniform, it would be much harder for military-worshiping conservatives ever to kick them out.

Anonymous Gen. Kong September 14, 2017 1:45 PM  

And most people are far more accepting of those immigrants willing to serve in the military.

Most people are idiots, as someone used to say. The cloud people like foreigners to serve as their Praetorian guards. The aliens (mercenaries, actually) will obey any order given by those who pay them. They don't give a damn about constitutions or those who like to ghost-dance about them.

Blogger Demonic Professor El September 14, 2017 1:52 PM  

Optimist Hat: One thing to keep in mind in regards to Trump, deals, RINOs, Deathocrats, DACA, the Wall...

RINOs and Deathies are pretty evil, but a mix of chaotic and neutral evil - they will go for a momentary tic in MSM applause or a little bit of scratch money thrown their way. A move that shows where the RINOs and Deathies real alignments are is optics for 2018.

If Trump "isn't allowed" to build the wall vis a vis Paul Ryan, John McCain, they can be primaried out. That's the intent of getting Bannon out of the WH - to stir up the base against RINOs.

Other things aside - look to localities and states and see where they're going. Michigan and Iowa have Voter ID laws now. With the former, that eliminates *at least* half a million fake voters. With Iowa, at least 100k fake votes (lots of illegals and refugees in Iowa). Some states have loosened gun control laws, and many have relaxed business taxes and cert programs.

In any case, we knew the fight wasn't over and that Trump was part symbol, part actant - we need to be active as well in building businesses and communities. We need to take over municipalities and towns and states as well.

Vox reminds us of the old truism that the moral of war outweighs the material. Trump's election shows us the moral of it - we have the responsibility to keep the ground game going.

On that note, the DNC is still going to run Antifa and Jihadists for their candidates. They've doubled down on "America Last!" and "Amerikkka EVUHL." Expect, again, the Left to overplay Trump's negotiation feelers as a "victory" and they will open up their salvos on everyone.

Blogger Wynn Lloyd September 14, 2017 1:55 PM  

So your just a regular ol leftist. Got it.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents September 14, 2017 2:03 PM  

Michigan and Iowa have Voter ID laws now.

Teh lulz! Hillary Rodan Robot blames a lot of people and things for her loss in the Contractual Obligation book, but one of them is Voter ID. But there were not that many states with Voter ID in 2016 as far as I can tell. Enforcable ID in Michigan is very big news and coupled with self-deportation will make a difference as soon as 2018.

Blogger Demonic Professor El September 14, 2017 2:10 PM  

A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents wrote:Teh lulz! Hillary Rodan Robot blames a lot of people and things for her loss in the Contractual Obligation book, but one of them is Voter ID. But there were not that many states with Voter ID in 2016 as far as I can tell. Enforcable ID in Michigan is very big news and coupled with self-deportation will make a difference as soon as 2018.

And I think Texas just ruled that Voter ID can go ahead. Quietly, of course ;)

I remember 2016 too, especially in Michigan with HRC's magical extra 400k + votes. Especially with Wayne County having like 700k votes total. There's perhaps that many people who actually live there. MI had 115% voter turnout? Uh huh.

In either case, I've long though Trump and Company's big play before 2018 wasn't the Wall/Immigration, but National Voter ID in order to get the Wall and cement the New Right. Too many shenanigans with 2016.

Also, did you think it was interesting how HRC's "popular vote victory" always seemed to change numbers? Was it 2 million? 4.5? 7? Most places had a different number - which means even the DNC didn't know how many fake voters were out there.

Anonymous johnc September 14, 2017 2:10 PM  

DACA = cuckoldry:

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/09/13/the-economist-illegal-aliens-protected-by-daca-getting-jobs-over-unemployed-americans/

Blogger Demonic Professor El September 14, 2017 2:13 PM  

johnc wrote:DACA = cuckoldry



New slogan for Cuckservatives:

"Americans Don't Deserve American Jobs"

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents September 14, 2017 2:16 PM  

"Doing Jobs Americans Don't Deserve"

Blogger Demonic Professor El September 14, 2017 2:16 PM  

"America's Always Been a Part of Mexico"

Blogger S1AL September 14, 2017 2:25 PM  

"Obama's people weren't stupid. They knew if they could get a few of their "Dreamers" into uniform, it would be much harder for military-worshiping conservatives ever to kick them out."

There's a reason Vox says the Republicans are the stupid half of the ruling party.

Blogger Wynn Lloyd September 14, 2017 2:31 PM  

Is there an actual deal though?
What I'm seeing is that there is no deal whatsoever, outside of what Pelosi and Schumer say, and I dismiss as false everything that comes out of their mouths.
Now he says that there's no path to citizenship, no amnesty, and everything depends on the border Wall.

If they got to stay another two or three years, and he got a border wall out of it, with no citizenship for the DACA people, that would be a good development.
If they got to stay permanently, and as a result we get even more concessions (E-verify, birthright citizenship, etc.) it would be a great deal.
Yet all of that is in the future. He says there was no deal. Pelosi and Schumer say there is. They can't both be right. Who is more likely to be a liar? These tweets expressing concern for the DACA illegals could be heartfelt but even then they are there to help shield him from the aftermath. He can feel uncomfortable deporting the DACA illegals and still deport them. It actually looks better that way.
He can also not deport them but also bar them from citizenship. If there are measures to end birthright citizenship this would be a no-brainer.

We need to wait and see. We know he operates a little differently than most politicians. He likes to string people along, like Romney after the election.


Also, to the lame trolls:

No one says, "4D Chess" or "90D Chess" anymore except trolls. In fact I'm
guessing very few people said the original "4d Chess"

Find something new to front with.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents September 14, 2017 2:43 PM  

Is there an actual deal though?

If you can't trust Nancy Pelosi, Charles Schumer and the swamp stream media, who can you trust?

Anonymous johnc September 14, 2017 2:51 PM  

He says there was no deal. Pelosi and Schumer say there is. They can't both be right. Who is more likely to be a liar?

There is no official "deal" in the sense that it was inked... they just had some verbal agreements (amnesty for DACA illegals, and in return Trump gets a couple more drones for border security). Trump initially confirmed the Pelosi and Schumer version of events, but he has since back-pedaled now that Breitbart has flipped its lid.

There is really no need for compromise here. We have enough money to be building a real wall right now, and the rest should come from Mexico. He has no need for Congress (fast-track). The fact that Trump keeps deflecting every single impediment on Congress is evidence that he has no intention of fulfilling his promises.

If you want to know what's going on, take it from people like Bannon and Gorka who were actually in the White House.

Blogger beerme September 14, 2017 2:56 PM  

Wynn Lloyd wrote:Is there an actual deal though?

What I'm seeing is that there is no deal whatsoever, outside of what Pelosi and Schumer say, and I dismiss as false everything that comes out of their mouths.


Correct. There is no deal and Trump is using this to bash both parties while not being responsible for kicking out a bunch of "children". Trump has the leverage and won't give it up without getting something he wants out of the deal.

Neither party base is willing to see the establishment compromise and Trump won't let the cucks do their usual routine of giving away the farm for nothing. The upcoming primaries have both parties stuck in an awkward position and Trump timed this very well.

Anonymous AB.Prosper September 14, 2017 2:59 PM  

Trump says No DACA deal without massive border security.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/908272007011282944

No deal was made last night on DACA. Massive border security would have to be agreed to in exchange for consent. Would be subject to vote.

If massive border security is that, I can live with the DACA compromise.

Blogger Cail Corishev September 14, 2017 2:59 PM  

Is there an actual deal though?

It's becoming clearer that it was something like this: Trump sat down with them and talked about things they could do. Maybe we could trade X for Y, or A for B, or A and X for B. It's called negotiating. You bounce ideas off each other; it doesn't mean you're agreeing to them. Once in a while Nancy says something and Trump responds with, "That sounds good, I'm glad you mentioned that," or, "I'd really like to be able to help with that." It ends with handshakes and smiles all around, and he thanks them for meeting, saying how much nicer it is to work with them than the stupid Republicans.

Pelosi goes to a microphone and says they agreed to the stuff he nodded at and said sounded good, and everyone freaks out. He probably gets online and says, "WTF? Amnesty? I know I wasn't drinking...."

Blogger L. Jagi Lamplighter Wright September 14, 2017 3:09 PM  

I have a friend who spend many years as an illegal alien, due to circumstances outside of the person's control. This friend is entirely against DACA--says that it is better for a young person to start their life in their own country than to stay here longer and then have to restart at an older age.

Also this friend pointed out that most of the influential people pushing DACA are using these youths as cheap labor.

Blogger S1AL September 14, 2017 3:12 PM  

"Also this friend pointed out that most of the influential people pushing DACA are using these youths as cheap labor."

Now, now let's not get carried away.

What they really care about is whether they'll vote Democrat.

Blogger Cail Corishev September 14, 2017 3:23 PM  

A GOP chief of staff tells Jack Posobiec that he's never seen anything like the way the phones are blowing up with anti-DACA callers.

Is it just possible that the president's tweet asking whether Americans really wanted to kick these people out of the country was not rhetorical? Or is that too many D's on the chessboard?

Blogger S1AL September 14, 2017 3:33 PM  

"Is it just possible that the president's tweet asking whether Americans really wanted to kick these people out of the country was not rhetorical?"

I'm sticking with my original comment: Trump is looking to make a deal. He's putting options on the table. DACA support limited to certain categories? That's now on the table.

So it probably *was* a rhetorical question, if you assume that the point of a rhetorical question is to goad people into reaching their own conclusions.

Anonymous 5343 Kinds of Deplorable September 14, 2017 3:44 PM  

Is it just possible that the president's tweet asking whether Americans really wanted to kick these people out of the country was not rhetorical? Or is that too many D's on the chessboard?

Certainly makes sense.

Blogger LP9 September 14, 2017 3:57 PM  

Wall Now! POTUS TRUMP TRAIN JOY.

Cute to bother with Nancy and Chucky, I dont care, build the walls

I cannot afford immigration, amnesty anymore, recall Tom Tancredo...but I think we are stuck RE; the invader immigration

Hope I am wrong...

DACA to migrants are being exploited and abused do they not know? Do they not understand American life is a special hell in post American times that I dont care about at all.

Blogger DonReynolds September 14, 2017 4:44 PM  

Ken Prescott wrote:I knew a guy who thought that he was born in the USA until he discovered during his background investigation for a Secret clearance that he wasn't, and that his parents were illegal immigrants.

By then he was already a Marine. Ended up getting amnesty under Reagan, retired in 2015 after 30 years as a grunt.

It does happen.


WE even have US Senators born in Calgary, Canada....with naturalized Canadian parents, one of which was Cuban by birth. They may even run for president of the USA claiming to be a natural born American, even though there is nothing that says they have even be naturalized as an American citizen.
He says he never thought about it.

Blogger DonReynolds September 14, 2017 4:48 PM  

Brick Hardslab wrote:S1al

I had assumed the foreigners enlisted in their own country not illegal residents of the U.S.. For instance the navy famously has a good chunk of Filipinos as cooks. I didn't figure they came here illegally to enlist.


The Philippines was a territory of the US from the end of the Spanish-American War (December 10, 1898) until independence was granted (July 4th, 1946).

Blogger Arthur Isaac September 14, 2017 5:00 PM  


New slogan for Cuckservatives:

"Americans Don't Deserve American Jobs"


I wonder why we can't just start giving DACA's all the CEO jobs at the "too big to fail banks", the Fed chairs, and IT security positions at credit rating agencies. Those are jobs that Americans shouldn't want to do. POTUS doesn't want to send these highly qualified and educated superstars packing, time to put them to good use.

Blogger camperbot September 14, 2017 5:08 PM  

I too was upset until I read Scott Adams' convincing explanation here:

http://blog.dilbert.com/post/165334092961/i-explain-the-persuasion-techniques-president

Anonymous gxg September 14, 2017 5:10 PM  

I'm on Trump's email list and just received this:
______

There’s been a lot of noise today and a lot of rumors.

Let me set the record straight in the simplest language possible…

...WE WILL BUILD A WALL (NOT A FENCE) ALONG THE SOUTHERN BORDER OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA TO HELP STOP ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION AND KEEP AMERICA SAFE.

Apparently, liberals in Congress and the mainstream media need one more reminder that building the wall is non-negotiable.

So please, sign our petition to demand that we BUILD THE WALL.

Thank you,

______

When I signed the petition, it went straight to a donation page. I didn't donate. Other than primary challengers to Swamp Creatures, they're not getting another penny from me until they do something worth paying for.

Anonymous Cassie September 14, 2017 5:10 PM  

"Americans Don't Deserve American Jobs"

Got into a FB argument with somebody the other day about sending them back who argued this. It's not an exaggeration in the slightest.

Anonymous Ages September 14, 2017 5:11 PM  

centexguy wrote:Scott Adams held two periscopes this morning explaining how this is exactly how Trump negotiates. His point is that Trump hasn't given up anything of value because he wasn't going to build a total wall in the first place and deporting everyone here illegally under DACA was never going to happen.

Well, that isn't good enough. The people who voted for him took him at his word, and to betray them would destroy his presidency.

I actually agree with Coulter. If Trump is going to bail on these MAGA promises, I would rather have Pence, who is at least a social conservative.

Anonymous Anonymous September 14, 2017 5:30 PM  

Latest news is the whitehouse and capitol phone banks have melted, and the president is running, not walking, from the concept of amnesty.

We'll see.

That said, the swift and furious kick-back against amnesty may end up spoiling a golden opportunity.
If a beefed up RAISE act, an end to birthright citizenship and chain migration, and and 100% wall funding were included in a special case exemption for these 800k people, it would be worth the 800k sacrifice now for what would essentially be a reversal of the 1968 immigration act.

Oh well, we'll see.

Blogger Demonic Professor El September 14, 2017 5:30 PM  

Cassie wrote:"Americans Don't Deserve American Jobs"

Got into a FB argument with somebody the other day about sending them back who argued this. It's not an exaggeration in the slightest.


I wonder how many of their other posts relate to "Lazy kids won't get a d*mn job!"

Anonymous Ages September 14, 2017 6:24 PM  

aew51183 wrote:If a beefed up RAISE act, an end to birthright citizenship and chain migration, and and 100% wall funding were included in a special case exemption for these 800k people, it would be worth the 800k sacrifice now for what would essentially be a reversal of the 1968 immigration act.

Reagan tried that and failed. The only solution is for all of that to be in the same bill. This piecemeal thing does not work. They always raise the taxes but never get around to cutting the spending.

Trump can end DACA with the stroke of a pen. There is no need to pass a law. If this whole thing is about gaining leverage, he's going to have to try something else, because this is unacceptable.

Blogger Cail Corishev September 14, 2017 6:29 PM  

If a beefed up RAISE act, an end to birthright citizenship and chain migration, and and 100% wall funding were included in a special case exemption for these 800k people

Here's a theory: The president's sweet-talk about "hard-working people brought here by their parents blah blah blah" is triggering the GOP cucks hard, playing to their worst impulses to Do Something About DACA. But they know they'll get killed by the votes if they do something for foreigners while failing on everything for Americans. They just had that confirmed today. So to act on DACA while protecting themselves, they'd have to give Trump a bunch of other pro-American stuff he wants -- like your list there -- so he will call off the dogs and tell his supporters Congress played ball and did the right thing.

Now, I generally like my theories simpler than that, so I'm not placing any bets on it yet, just throwing it out there. It makes logical sense, but it seems high-risk. IF that's what he's doing, and IF he pulls it off, that would be pretty amazing.

Anonymous Anonymous September 14, 2017 6:36 PM  

Philalethes wrote:I think the real turning point – if there is one – will be the 2018 midterm elections.
That's right.Our government is tripartite; the Congress passes laws, the President enforces them, and the Judiciary is supposed to keep everyone honest. However, as you point out, Trump is a man standing alone, completely isolated from power.

To my mind, President Trump's major accomplishment has been to show the hollowness of the Republican Party--they are not what they pretend to be, ergo they must go. All of our efforts should be dedicated to dumping the Republican incumbents during the next primaries, and voting in those who pledge to cooperate with President Trump. Then President Trump can make some actual progress.

Meanwhile, everything he does must--of necessity--be a holding action. He should not do things that are perceived as willfully destructive, such as "shutting down the government"; the time is not yet here for decisive action. However, if we are patient, the time will come.

The worst thing we could do is to expect Trump to wave a magic wand and perform miracles. Walls can't be built without funding from Congress, and that is not going to happen until we have a functional government of the right.

Anonymous Andrew Anglin September 14, 2017 6:37 PM  

you cucks are a howl. Trumpenthal's been a stooge of the Jews his entire adult life. This final cave-in is more of the same.

enjoy the punishment. He's certainly got more in store for you.

and don't forget to vote!

Anonymous johnc September 14, 2017 6:47 PM  

There is no way Ivanka is going to allow for anything other than full amnesty for "DREAMers".

She demanded a missile strike on a sovereign nation after looking at some photos; I'm sure DREAMers weigh on her heart far more heavily.

Anonymous Looking Glass September 14, 2017 6:59 PM  

@Cail:

Remember, Trump "isn't smart" to all of the cluckers. So, there's no way that Trump could be Machiavellian, ever! He's not that smart.

Why, oh why, would Trump be pushing the GOPe to come to some deal over DACA when they haven't done any of the MAGA agenda. What possible reason could Trump be pushing poisoned apples on the fair-skinned Snow Cucks? What possible reason could Trump give to explain why he'd push, with the GOPe, the one thing that would fracture his own base.

What could possibly lead Trump to push something that would light up the switchboards of the entire GOP like it was Christmas? What could lead Trump to push the one topic that would cause rolling Primary challenges to all of the GOP Senators up for re-election? That will probably cost Luther Strange any chance in the AL Senate run-off. That will make Ryan & McConnell look beyond weak & vulnerable.

How could a man that thrived(!) in NYC construction & real estate, that's made his own name into a Brand, that beat the Bush & Clinton Crime Families and got elected President possibly think that way?

Because Trump is a f***ing Vader when he needs to be. What part of the Dark Triad traits is hard to understand? Trump is an apex Alpha in Dark Triad form on this topic.

Blogger Cail Corishev September 14, 2017 7:08 PM  

Walls can't be built without funding from Congress, and that is not going to happen until we have a functional government of the right.

The problem is how to get there from here. Congress has worked very hard to give incumbents a near-unbeatable advantage. If he wants to knock out a bunch of them and replace them with patriots, he's going to need plenty of credibility. Building as much Wall as there's the budget for would help. Extending DACA and repairing some border fences wouldn't. He can't compromise with Democrats and retreat on his agenda for the next year and then beg for help. That won't work.

That might not be fair, but that's how it is. (So I doubt that's what he has in mind.)

There is no way Ivanka is going to allow

I guess some people just enjoy being terrified.

Blogger Cail Corishev September 14, 2017 7:18 PM  

Because Trump is a f***ing Vader when he needs to be.

I guess I'm not used to politicians coming up with tactics that I couldn't think of in 5 seconds. I'm not bragging, I'm ridiculing them. For a president to pull off a play that didn't come to me until a few hours after I saw the story would be new.

Anonymous Looking Glass September 14, 2017 7:37 PM  

@Cail Corishev:

Remember, Trump is a "New York Playboy". A Media Creation so great it fooled all of the Intelligence Services. It took me the entire campaign to finally realize it was false. No Playboy has 9 grandchildren and is on that good of terms with his 5 children. That doesn't happen. (He's not the Pope, but he's a moral paragon in NYC.)

In other news, North Korea tossed some missiles over Japan the day after Japan & India inked a deal that cost China money. Expect more sanctions on China.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents September 14, 2017 8:07 PM  

Looking Glass
Remember, Trump is a "New York Playboy". A Media Creation so great it fooled all of the Intelligence Services

Trump does not drink or use other drugs. That means he has been the only sober man in the room, especially in the 80's and early 90's. What's he seen over the years? This is why I believe he is as swamp-resistant as any man can be, and blackmail-proof as well.

In other news, North Korea tossed some missiles over Japan the day after Japan & India inked a deal that cost China money. Expect more sanctions on China.

The ROK's want nukes. Not US nukes on their soil, they want their own nukes, and are making sure everyone knows it.

Blogger Admiral James September 14, 2017 9:09 PM  

Exactly!
You can always tell when they are lying...their lips are moving

Anonymous Ages September 14, 2017 9:12 PM  

gxg wrote:I'm on Trump's email list and just received this:

______

There’s been a lot of noise today and a lot of rumors.

Let me set the record straight in the simplest language possible…

...WE WILL BUILD A WALL (NOT A FENCE) ALONG THE SOUTHERN BORDER OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA TO HELP STOP ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION AND KEEP AMERICA SAFE.

Apparently, liberals in Congress and the mainstream media need one more reminder that building the wall is non-negotiable.

So please, sign our petition to demand that we BUILD THE WALL.

Thank you,


______

When I signed the petition, it went straight to a donation page. I didn't donate. Other than primary challengers to Swamp Creatures, they're not getting another penny from me until they do something worth paying for.


Nothing in that email says "no amnesty" or "DACA isn't happening."

Blogger Admiral James September 14, 2017 9:18 PM  

Exactly!
You can always tell when they are lying...their lips are moving

Blogger Cail Corishev September 14, 2017 9:18 PM  

Nothing in that email says "no amnesty" or "DACA isn't happening."

Because the thing he was addressing was everyone's freakout over Pelosi and Schumer claiming there would be no Wall. He also said in Florida today no amnesty, no citizenship. You probably just missed that bit of news, though. You wouldn't be ignoring that bit because it doesn't fit the defeatist narrative.

Anonymous Ages September 14, 2017 9:31 PM  

Cail Corishev wrote:You wouldn't be ignoring that bit because it doesn't fit the defeatist narrative.

We have nothing to gain by pretending everything is going to be okay. It is not bad for Trump supporters to panic from time to time. Trump supporters were jamming every form of communications today, which forced a response and a reiteration, and that is a GOOD THING.

Conservatives have PTSD. We have been screwed over by the GOP every single time, and Trump was supposed to be different. There is nothing wrong with holding Trump accountable, especially because he is generall more interested in making deals than holding to any particular position.

Not every deal is a good deal.

Blogger Josh (the sexiest thing here) September 14, 2017 9:33 PM  

Amid the backlash, Trump insisted to reporters, "We're not looking at citizenship. We're not looking at amnesty. We're looking at allowing people to stay here."

Blogger Josh (the sexiest thing here) September 14, 2017 9:34 PM  

He also said in Florida today no amnesty, no citizenship.

Gang of 8 bill was also described as no amnesty

Anonymous Ages September 14, 2017 10:00 PM  

Allowing people to stay here literally is amnesty, which means "not taking action against specified offenders."

Nice doublespeak, #AmnestyDon!

Blogger Lazarus September 14, 2017 10:01 PM  

The Trump train is NOT fine, according to Ann Coulter. She is still on it, but she thinks Trump has stepped off.

Maybe it is a woman thing.

Blogger Lazarus September 14, 2017 10:09 PM  

scott adams is good on this as usual.

Blogger Thucydides September 14, 2017 10:13 PM  

The biggest problem for tea leaf readers is not only is President Trump a master of Obfuscation, but so is the Fake News media. We are essentially trying to peer through two separate smokescreens, laid by two opposing sides for two separate tactical reasons.

So while I hope to be pleasantly surprised, about the only thing we will be certain of is surprise......

Anonymous Andrew E. September 14, 2017 10:16 PM  

scott adams is good on this as usual.

Not sure scott adams being right is a good thing. He's maintained from the very beginning of Trump's campaign that of course some sort of accommodation would eventually be made for most of the illegals. Thus, I've always hoped that adams would be proven wrong.

Anonymous Andrew E. September 14, 2017 10:25 PM  

And where does this idea that Trump needs Congressional funding for the Wall? The military spends billions of dollars every week. As Commander-in-Chief just order the military to divert some resources and manpower to build the Wall.

Now, if instead Trump wants to use the Wall as an issue to clean out the cucks in 2018 primaries that's another thing. But let's not pretend he's beholden to these vipers on this issue. And the Wall is thus a given, and not to be wasted in any kind of 'deal.'

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