ALL BLOG POSTS AND COMMENTS COPYRIGHT (C) 2003-2018 VOX DAY. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. REPRODUCTION WITHOUT WRITTEN PERMISSION IS EXPRESSLY PROHIBITED.

Friday, October 06, 2017

EU incoherence

Both the EU and the Spanish government are proving to be tone-deaf over the threat to their claim to democratic legitimacy.
The obvious answer to the objection of Weber and others on the running of the referendum, is to have another one agreed by all and run in strict accordance with international standards. Yet strangely, despite their complaints about the process, they do not want to have a better process. They rather do not wish people to be allowed to vote at all.

There are however no arguments that the Catalan Parliament was elected in anything but the proper manner. Its suspension by the Spanish Constitutional Court – a body on which 10 out of 12 members are political appointees – is therefore not due to any doubts about the Catalan Parliament’s legitimacy.

No, the Catalan Parliament has been suspended because the Constitutional Court fears it may be about to vote in a way that the Spanish government does not like.

Note that it has not even done this yet. Nobody knows how its members will actually vote, until they vote. The Constitutional Court is suspending a democratically elected body in case it takes a democratic vote of its members.

This makes the EU look pretty silly. It was looking pretty silly anyway. I telephoned the Cabinet today of Frans Timmermans, the EU Commissioner who told the European Parliament that Spain was entitled to use force against the Catalans and it had been proportionate. I spoke to a pleasant young man responsible for the “rule of law and fundamental rights” portfolio in the Cabinet. I got through by using my “Ambassador” title.

Here is the thing. He was genuinely shocked to hear that people thought the Commission’s support for use of force was wrong. He stated that it had not been the intention of Timmermans to say the use of force was proportionate, rather it must be proportionate. He became very agitated and refused to answer when I repeatedly questioned him as to whether he thought the use of force had in fact been proportionate. I suggested to him rather strongly that in refusing to acknowledge the disproportionate use of force, he was in effect lying. I pointed out that Timmermans had supported use of force and said “rule of law” over and over again, but scarcely mentioned human rights.

Here is the thing. It was plain that his shock was genuine, and he had no idea whatsoever of the social media reaction to Timmermans speech. I told him to search Timmermans on twitter and facebook and see for himself, and he agreed to do so. The problem is, these people live in a Brussels bubble where they interact with other Eurocrats and national diplomats, and members of the Establishment media, but have no connection at all to the citizenry of the EU.
Crying "law, law, law" is never going to prove convincing to anyone. The Nuremberg trials killed the concept of the legal justification for morality once and for all. According to the neo-liberal world order, the law rests upon the collective consent of the governed, which consent can be withdrawn at any time as per the Chinese concept of the Mandate of Heaven. Both the EU and Spain are flirting with forces that have the ability to undermine them entirely, and unfortunately, they do not seem to understand this.

For those Spaniards who are apparently very, very slow, I do not support the communists of Catalan. Unlike the Lombardian and Venetian secessionists, I don't regard their position on independence and the EU to be even remotely coherent. But that does not make what Spain and the EU are trying to do either right or wise.

The Saker is thinking on similar lines when he concludes the Russians are more amused than anything by the situation in Catalonia, and quite reasonably so:
Catalonia is far away from Russia and the outcome of the crisis there will have no real impact on Russian national interests. But on a political level, Catalonia is highly relevant to the Russian political debates. See for yourself:

The case of Catalonia can be compared to Crimea: a local referendum, organized against the will of the central government. In contrast, when Kosovo was cut-off from Serbia in total illegality and without any kind of referendum the entire West gave this abomination a standing ovation. The Russians then issues stark warnings about the precedent this set and thereafter South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Crimea happened. Is the secession of Catalonia not the next logical step? Is there not a karmic beauty in the fact that Spain and the rest of the EU are now being hit by the very same demon they unleashed in Kosovo? There is a definite Schadenfreude for many Russians in seeing the pompous asses of EU politicians sitting on the red ants nest of separatism – let’s see how smart and “democratic” you guys truly are?! It is rather funny, in a bitter-sweet way, to see how ‘democratic’ policemen beat up peaceful demonstrators whose only “crime” was to want to cast a ballot in a box.

A lot of Russians are now saying that Russia is now the only truly democratic and free country left out there. Needless to say, the way the Madrid government handled this situation further damage the credibility of the West, the EU and the entire notion of “civilized Europe” being “democratic”.

Labels: ,

130 Comments:

Blogger Kona Commuter October 06, 2017 8:11 AM  

What the Nuremberg trials proved was that winning matters most. Allied forces could not be charged with war crimes. Former secretary of Defense and one of the chief architects of the fire bombing campaign on Japan McNamara stated in the documentary "Fog of War" had the US lost the war then they'd be the ones hung for war crimes. And finally, purely anecdotal type evidence, a Dutch volunteer in the German SS said when asked what we could learn from the horrors of the second world war he replied (paraphrased) "Winners write the history"

Note - I'm not a Altretard / 1488 larper (I had to look up wtf that number meant... 88? seriously? retarded in the extreme)

Blogger Lazarus October 06, 2017 8:31 AM  

all avenues to craig murray seem to be down or blocked at this time

Anonymous Anonymous October 06, 2017 8:34 AM  

>"The problem is, these people live in a Brussels bubble where they interact with other Eurocrats and national diplomats, and members of the Establishment media, but have no connection at all to the citizenry of the EU"

This is not a "problem", this was the intention of the people who created the EU.
They did not believe in democracy, and wished to kill it utterly. Every step the EU has taken beyond its originally stated "economic bloc" purpose has involved spitting in the face of democracy.

The EU's abysmal record happens over and over again where the EU is involved: They hold a vote, fail the vote, and simply call do-overs again and again until they get the vote they want or even simply have presidents and parliaments who lack the authority ram it through and declare it to be so, and now they're on the road to slapping the british public in the face despite a now 70/30 margin for them exiting the EU.

This is the real reason they have a massive fake "russia" investigation going on against Trump: Any morally-centered POTUS would have shifted our alliances from the EU to Russia. They are far from perfect but the EU is much more aggressive and wide-reaching in its increasing violations of human rights and its slide into out-and-out communism.

Blogger weka October 06, 2017 8:40 AM  

We know the revolution has come when the eurocrats are in tumbrels.

Which is not... yet. This is akin to the very progressive bubble around Versailles.

Anonymous solutreansolution October 06, 2017 8:41 AM  

Surprised the League of the South hasn't tried to cobble something together to get a "vote" to leave.

Anonymous basementhomebrewer October 06, 2017 8:52 AM  

This is an interesting shift. It used to be "vote until you get the outcome we like". Now it's "you can't have a vote because law!" The mask is slipping and I think the EU is starting to get nervous about the other cats getting out of the pen.

Anonymous zebedee October 06, 2017 8:57 AM  

Saker's got his facts wrong when he accuses Spain of supporting Kosovo's independence. When it comes to recognising secessionist regimes the Spanish Government is nothing if not consistent.

Anonymous Yann October 06, 2017 8:57 AM  

And finally, purely anecdotal type evidence, a Dutch volunteer in the German SS said when asked what we could learn from the horrors of the second world war he replied (paraphrased) "Winners write the history"

The big problem with Germany in the WW2 was the organized mass murdering of civil people.

And be aware, I'm not against protecting your land from the invasion of people who don't integrate.

You don't want somebody in your house (Muslims, Spanish, Catalans, Basques, Jews, Germans, Japanese, I bloody don't care), you kick his ass out, with violence if necessary in case doing it peacefully didn't work. So first you try it peacefully, and in case the whole issue escalates to violence, so be it. For example, what's happening in Myanmar right now. BUT... the moment you close the door, and then you kill them, that's a big deal-breaker. The moment you prevent them from leaving in order to kill them, that changes the game.


Anonymous Anonymous October 06, 2017 9:02 AM  

@6

The mask was "slipping" when the EU imposed chinese style internet censorship. It fell off when they began raiding people's homes for social media posts and pressuring companies into censorship policies which impacted American citizens. It is now being trumpeted - "helicoptered" Gay Pride Parade style in our faces.

The United States has a duty to withdraw any and all support for this oppressive regime.

Blogger ZhukovG October 06, 2017 9:04 AM  

@ee6e3dd2-c3a3-11e3-b44f-000bcdca4d7a: Why would the US withdraw support from that which it approves?

Blogger ZhukovG October 06, 2017 9:09 AM  

"A lot of Russians are now saying that Russia is now the only truly democratic and free country left out there."

Vladimir Putin, Leader of the Free World.

Blogger Desdichado October 06, 2017 9:09 AM  

@7 zebedee's got his facts wrong. The Saker claims that "the West" applauded Kosovo, not Spain.

Anonymous NobodyExpects October 06, 2017 9:13 AM  

Irrelevant blog entry, not commenting. Except for thanking VD about clarifying his position about Communists. That was -surprisingly- in doubt, even considering the slow, slow, slow intelligence we Spaniards are known for.

Perhaps you are too fast.

Blogger Johnny October 06, 2017 9:20 AM  

To be logically picky here I think the proportionate use of force is the wrong way to view this stuff. The thing is, a fight between a cop and a civilian is not supposed to be a fair fight. The cop is supposed to win and the proportionate use of force is however much is necessary for the cop to win.

While stressing the cops pushing people around may be a propaganda win here, the bigger issue is or should be the legitimacy of the police action. Should the cops even have been there? And while we are on the subject, was anybody arrested? And if they were, what would the charges be? You know, what law was being broken?

Let me guess. Because it all happened in Catalonia, if they arrested some of these potential voters, the legal process would take place in Catalonia. And if indeed they have trial by jury, it would be more or less impossible to get a conviction owing to local sentiment. Not that I know, just guessing about this.

Blogger ZhukovG October 06, 2017 9:24 AM  

@NobodyExpects: If you had any doubts about Vox's opposition to The Left then you are not very bright by any standard.

We merely observe, correctly, that the pretense of the EU and Spain having any real commitment to Democracy and Human Rights is shredded at this point. The desirability of Democracy or the efficacy of Human Rights is quite beside the point.

Frankly my concerns with my own country (USA), and its grim future make this little Iberian quarrel a ridiculous sideshow by comparison.

Iberian issues are the responsibility of the Iberian peoples. But we are entertained.

Blogger Phat Repat October 06, 2017 9:25 AM  

Any morally-centered POTUS would have shifted our alliances from the EU to Russia.

As China continues to expand, this will come about in due time. The EU, as a political bloc, will cease at some point. The currency and other features (Schengen) will continue (following removal of invaders), however.

Anonymous basementhomebrewer October 06, 2017 9:30 AM  

Johnny wrote:To be logically picky here I think the proportionate use of force is the wrong way to view this stuff. The thing is, a fight between a cop and a civilian is not supposed to be a fair fight. The cop is supposed to win and the proportionate use of force is however much is necessary for the cop to win.

While stressing the cops pushing people around may be a propaganda win here, the bigger issue is or should be the legitimacy of the police action. Should the cops even have been there? And while we are on the subject, was anybody arrested? And if they were, what would the charges be? You know, what law was being broken?

Let me guess. Because it all happened in Catalonia, if they arrested some of these potential voters, the legal process would take place in Catalonia. And if indeed they have trial by jury, it would be more or less impossible to get a conviction owing to local sentiment. Not that I know, just guessing about this.


That is where the Spanish are majorly miscalculating on this. They had numerous other options here. In scale of stupidity their alternatives were;

Arrest the election officials/politicians only.

Seize the ballot boxes after the votes were conducted.

Wait for the results to be announced and declare the vote to be invalid.

Run ground game campaigning ahead of the vote to get ensure of a win.

Participate in the election process and then declare inconsistencies and ballot box stuffing if you lose or stuff the ballot boxes themselves.


The last 2 options really should be applied together. They have the advantage of the misinformation machine. Choosing violence before even trying to deploy it was a really stupid maneuver. Especially since all indications are that at least 45% of the population if not closer to 50% supported staying a part of Spain before they started busting heads.

Blogger EejitInEspana October 06, 2017 9:33 AM  

Could we see the return of the Spanish Inquisition! I rule nothing out in this timeline, the memes will be so Dank.

Anonymous Anonymous October 06, 2017 9:35 AM  

@6

If the EU willed it, the Spanish constitution could be amended in a week to allow for a legal referendum to take place. Vox proposed that this vote would be the litmus test to determine if the neo-liberal world order is actually rooted in democracy as it claims. I don't think he or anyone else realized how eagerly all parties involved would act to shine a light on this charade.

Anonymous Luke October 06, 2017 9:38 AM  

The secessionist movements in Western Europe are IMO grounded in the natives seeing the various higher governments (national and EU) as being undesirable, illegitimate losers who won't always exist. The taxation, regulation, economy, demographics (diversities pouring in AND locals not reproducing anywhere near replacement rate due to the first 3 as much as feminism/irreligiousness) are in turn behind that. These days, to be a nationalist in Western Europe is necessarily to be against the national government. Scotland was happier to be part of the British Empire than it would be to Londonistan North.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan October 06, 2017 9:40 AM  

If you want to game out reactions of the West's elite just think what a stressed out woman in over her head would do and then you will be close.

The West is a day care center ran at least in the public's view by the female imperative for the benefit of the bankers.

Anonymous Marvin Boggs October 06, 2017 9:43 AM  

Regarding bureaucrats living in their own little bubble, interacting only with each other, thereby becoming out of touch with the rest of the country/world...

Given that we now have reasonable, effective, efficient means of working remotely, do you think it would have a positive effect to have the bureaucrats (and maybe the politicians) spread across the country (i.e. burst the bubble)? Fifty years ago, this would have been untenable. Today it's certainly possible, and I'm thinking it might be worthwhile.

Blogger Desdichado October 06, 2017 9:43 AM  

NobodyExpects wrote:Irrelevant blog entry, not commenting. Except for thanking VD about clarifying his position about Communists. That was -surprisingly- in doubt, even considering the slow, slow, slow intelligence we Spaniards are known for.

Perhaps you are too fast.

OH NOEZ! Someone nobody has ever heard of comes out of the woodwork because its an issue that he is too emotionally invested in to keep his yap shut, so he keeps blabbing on and on proving that he's completely missed the point and can't even follow the conversation. And because he hints darkly that he wonders if maybe someone around here was sympathetic to communism that something something mumble mumble cough cough.

Yeah, you're trying to make a sarcastic reply about how "fast" (wrong word, by the way) we are compared to you slow-pated Spaniards, but it doesn't work very well when you actually demonstrate it to be true.

Blogger tz October 06, 2017 9:57 AM  

I'm waiting for when the revolt against Brussels sprouts.

The proles became unhappy, but in their hubris the elites wished to replace them, but thought that impoverished 3rd worlders would be grateful, not hateful and demanding. They now would need the white proles to eject the brown ones lest the EU become part of the Caliphate. But they haven't recognized it yet, hence the hate speech laws.

Meanwhile, here in the USA, it feels like the 80 year pattern is progressing - 1777, 1857, 1937, 2017. The USA will be a different country - or countries - in 10 years.

Blogger Johnny October 06, 2017 9:57 AM  

Marvin Boggs wrote:do you think it would have a positive effect to have the bureaucrats (and maybe the politicians) spread across the country (i.e. burst the bubble)?...

The government workers unions are too powerful to get it done, but otherwise a good idea. My plan would be to pander to the current union people to keep them cool, while shrinking their numbers. Start contracting the routine work out to private enterprise to reduce the number of government workers. Favor companies that are not located in the big population centers, and spin stuff off to the states when expedient.

Anonymous Rocklea October 06, 2017 9:58 AM  

"Regarding bureaucrats living in their own little bubble, interacting only with each other, thereby becoming out of touch with the rest of the country/world..."

These people deserve a nation of their own too. Is the Mars mission full up yet?

Anonymous VFM #6306 October 06, 2017 10:02 AM  

Russia should demand UN Peacekeepers be sent in to defend the Catalonians, just for giggles.

Blogger Azimus October 06, 2017 10:07 AM  

This is the real reason they have a massive fake "russia" investigation going on against Trump: Any morally-centered POTUS would have shifted our alliances from the EU to Russia. They are far from perfect but the EU is much more aggressive and wide-reaching in its increasing violations of human rights and its slide into out-and-out communism.

This is a bit of a stretch, to put it mildly. I don't follow the syllogism of this argument, but I would say that Putin can be admired afar for his staunch defense of the Russian nation/people against the dehumanizing soft-tyranny of European socialism, but that oceans apart from the conclusion that an alliance with Russia is a good idea at all.

Someone months ago said in the comment section here that Russia is a rival, not an enemy. This is probably true, and in existential matters US and Russian interests align. But in truth a rival does not make a goody ally, and I can't recall any western nation that has really enjoyed a beneficial alliance or friendship w/Russia. Napoleon comes to mind - went poorly. The French/British in WW1 - went poorly. The Serbs in WW1 - went poorly. Hitler (though that was Soviets a little different of course) - went poorly. Warsaw Pact countries post WW2 - went poorly. Cuba for the last 50yrs - went poorly. My history before say 1748 is cloudier, but who has ever had a good alliance w/Russia?

Blogger Johnny October 06, 2017 10:07 AM  

Not all that long ago in the Untied States companies would hire black strikebreakers as a way to undermine the then segregated unions. Playing one population against another is the game, and a curse for the locals as it empowers mainly the institutions at the expense of all else.

It seems obvious to me that these "immigrants" in Europe are a voting block for their particular interests, and as long as white guilt can be used to keep the backlash down, pandering to them is a win-win for the political class. Call it the cures of a multi-culture society.

Anonymous Rocklea October 06, 2017 10:11 AM  

"Russia should demand UN Peacekeepers be sent in to defend the Catalonians, just for giggles."

By Jove old boy, you may have just solved the high unemployment problem among the refugees. Bit of basic training and viola! Two birds one stone an' all. Maybe add a few stars to the blue helmets for unity.

Anonymous Simplytimothy October 06, 2017 10:14 AM  

Nigel Farage shares Vox's view.

https://straightlinelogic.com/2017/10/05/he-said-that-10517/

Blogger Chent October 06, 2017 10:19 AM  

Some news:

The day before yesterday I announced that, in case of independence, banks and companies would flee from Catalonia.

Well, they have not waited to independence.

CaixaBank (formerly known as "La Caixa") has decided to move outside Catalonia.

(This is the most painful thing. La Caixa has always been the economic branch of the nationalist movement and a true tradition in Catalonia - Catalan parents opened an account for their little children in La Caixa to teach them to save).

Sabadell Bank has moved outside Catalonia (a bank created in the 19th century in Sabadell - a city of Catalonia. It couldn't be more Catalan).

Mediolanum Bank moves outside Catalonia.

Gas Natural (formerly known as "Catalana de Gas"), one of the Catalan emblematic companies decides today to move outside Catalonia.

A textile company and the Oryzon biotech company have moved outside Catalonia.

Flee of bank deposits from Catalonia.

Hundreds of Catalan people leave their workplace in a workday to go outside Catalonia and open an account to put their money. "We are afraid"

https://www.elconfidencial.com/espana/cataluna/2017-10-06/independencia-cataluna-fraga-caixabank-sabadell_1456879/



Anonymous AZFloyd October 06, 2017 10:19 AM  

" The Nuremberg trials killed the concept of the legal justification for morality once and for all."

I'm not understanding your point Mr. Beale. (I'm slow this morning) Please explicate if you have time. Or anyone for that matter. Thanks.

Blogger Chent October 06, 2017 10:25 AM  

Crying "law, law, law" is never going to prove convincing to anyone.

Vox, I am glad that you finally understand the Hillary Clinton supporters.

They won the popular vote. They have the moral force. Crying "law, law, law" is never going to prove convincing to anyone. Let's negotiate with them to see if they can have some power. Maybe we can arrange six months of Trump and then six months of Hillary.

Blogger Stilicho October 06, 2017 10:28 AM  

What, unintended consequences? How about that!

Anonymous Rocklea October 06, 2017 10:30 AM  

"The day before yesterday I announced that, in case of independence, banks and companies would flee from Catalonia."

Elite cooperation in secessionists movements will be vital. Back to the free trade problem...

Blogger Jonathon Davies October 06, 2017 10:31 AM  

Still surprising me the number of EU Remaintards that are doing all in their power, and their tiny minds, to justify what the EU is doing. Monday will be interesting, when the Catalan government claims it will claim independence eve if it means leaving the EU.

Blogger Chent October 06, 2017 10:32 AM  

In contrast, Catalan secessionist parties are less than 50 percent of the vote (although are barely superior to 50 percent of the Parlament seats). With this bare majority (we are not talking about 90% of Crimea here), they:

1) Broke their own laws. In the Catalan Parliament, they approved the Referendum Law, not only breaking Spanish legality, but breaking the laws and regulations their own Parliament approved. They forbid the parties against independence to introduce amendments or to express themselves as with any other law. Democracy for me, but not for thee.

2) They say they want to negotiate how to get to independence. They say the independence cannot be negotiated, even if the independence has a support of the less of 50% of the electorate (and this support is because of the lies of secessionists.)

Former Catalan president Artur Mas saying that banks would not flee Catalonia.

https://casoaislado.com/video-asi-mienten-los-independentistas-artur-mas-aseguro-los-bancos-no-dejarian-cataluna/

Blogger pdwalker October 06, 2017 10:35 AM  

A lot of Russians are now saying that Russia is now the only truly democratic and free country left out there.

As someone who grew to adulthood in the 80's, you have no idea how much this idea surprises me, especially so as I agree with it to a degree.

Blogger Stilicho October 06, 2017 10:36 AM  

BTW, Instapundit won the internets yesterday. Gloria Steinem tweeted some leftist gun control pablum about treating gun purchasers the same as women getting abortions and Glenn responded with "you mean allowing anyone who is 13 to purchase on without parental consent?"

Rumor has it that the Mike drop was so loud that it caused Chuck Schumer (D Nazi Germany) to run AWAY from a camera.

Blogger Jonathon Davies October 06, 2017 10:40 AM  

"We have always been at war with Catalonia..."

Anonymous Marvin Boggs October 06, 2017 10:46 AM  

@32: much of that is to be expected.

During one of the Quebec referendums (a? ae?), the Bank of Montreal moved to Toronto from Montreal.

I gather that many people living in Catalonia would not consider themselves Catalonian from an ethnicity perspective. They might well consider abandoning Catalonia if it declares independence. Moving their funds out in advance would be wise.

All of the things you describe should disturb Catalonian nationalists. From a high-level perspective, none of the things you describe are surprising.

Blogger Lazarus October 06, 2017 10:53 AM  

tz wrote:I'm waiting for when the revolt against Brussels sprouts.



First, they must be steamed, not boiled, then sprinkle lightly with parmesan, shredded garlic and lemon zest. No need to revolt after that. Yum.

Blogger Chent October 06, 2017 10:58 AM  

@Marvin Boggs

Well, it is to be expected. These banks are trying to avoid a bank run or finding themselves outside the Euro zone.

I gather that many people living in Catalonia would not consider themselves Catalonian from an ethnicity perspective. hey might well consider abandoning Catalonia if it declares independence. Moving their funds out in advance would be wise.

Well, it is reasonable to think that, but it is not true. Firstly, Catalonia is not a ethnicity but a region of Spain (in fact, it has never been independent in history).

Secondly, according to La Vanguardia newspaper (which has been in favor of the secessionist process for the last years), during January 2017:

39,7% feels equally Catalan and Spaniard

23,2% feels more Catalan than Spaniard (but still feels Spaniards).

24,9% feels only Catalan (doesn't feel Spaniard at all).

3,6% feels more Spaniard than Catalan.

5,4% feels only Spaniard

http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20170120/413527100693/ceo-catalanes-espanoles.html

Blogger Lazarus October 06, 2017 11:02 AM  

Desdichado wrote:@7 zebedee's got his facts wrong. The Saker claims that "the West" applauded Kosovo, not Spain.

Saker actually wrote "the entire West" when in fact Greece, Cyprus, and Spain did not recognize Kosovo.

It would have helped if he clarified that.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine October 06, 2017 11:04 AM  

"They won the popular vote. They have the moral force."

They did not. They faked it though, and continue to lie about it, exactly like you.

Blogger Chent October 06, 2017 11:05 AM  

I have to add, these results come after more of 30 years of brainwashing the masses with the idea "We are Catalan, not Spaniard".

1- Indoctrinating children in the school.
2- Making Catalan TV as neutral as Cuban TV (see http://www.elmundo.es/cataluna/2017/09/28/59cc0fdd46163f827a8b460b.html)

3- Bribing all the civil organizations to make them secesionist (from chess clubs to private media)

Even with that, they can't pull it off so they must recur to lies and playing the victim.

Blogger Lazarus October 06, 2017 11:07 AM  

Chent wrote:39,7% feels equally Catalan and Spaniard

23,2% feels more Catalan than Spaniard (but still feels Spaniards).

24,9% feels only Catalan (doesn't feel Spaniard at all).

3,6% feels more Spaniard than Catalan.

5,4% feels only Spaniard


Feelz is not a good basis for public policy.

Blogger Johnny October 06, 2017 11:08 AM  

@28: Your remembrance of history is highly selective and amazingly arbitrary.

By way of recent history, the shift away from the detestable communist system as implemented by the USSR went badly. Along with losing control over conquered territories (not necessarily a bad thing), the internals of Russia went very badly. The social setup was not at all suitable to a rapid shift to a market economy and the country came close to being a failed state.

Putin is an autocrat but the country retains a degree of democracy, and given that Putin pulled them out of the craziness that came before, I am surprised that he isn't even more popular than he is.

As for Russia being a "nice" country, they are not nice and they are not going to become nice. The country suffers from long borders that have to be defended and has large internal ethnic minorities. But as for our interests, a weak Russia that is coming apart at the seams would produce enormous political instability right in the middle of the Eurasian land mass, and that would be far more dangerous than a stable Russia.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine October 06, 2017 11:08 AM  

And even if they did win the popular vote, that does not constitute morality. Bandwagon fallacy. Haven't you ever received the speech "If everyone else was lining up and jumping off a cliff, would you do that too?"

Blogger Chent October 06, 2017 11:09 AM  

But Azure, Crying "law, law, law" is never going to prove convincing to anyone. You must accept Hillary Clinton has lots of followers. Let's negotiate.

Ah, no. Breaking the law is for Catalonia, not for America. LOL


They won the popular vote. They have the moral force."

They did not. They faked it though, and continue to lie about it, exactly like you.

Nice try. Next time, bring me data to prove I am lying. I am giving you links and data. You are giving me BS and "it is this way because I say so".

Blogger Chent October 06, 2017 11:11 AM  

And even if they did win the popular vote, that does not constitute morality.

But it works for Catalonia. They DON'T win the popular vote, they break the law, they cheat in a thousand different ways, but they have the moral ground... because, because....because I say so, damn it

Blogger Azure Amaranthine October 06, 2017 11:11 AM  

And before you try it (yet again), Chent, no, I'm not saying that because one thing is immoral or amoral that the opposite is moral. Spain/EU is still immoral because they lie about their very reason for being.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine October 06, 2017 11:12 AM  

You still don't get it Chent. Catalonia is messed up. No one ever denied this, HOWEVER, they are (in this particular aspect), less messed up than Spain currently.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine October 06, 2017 11:13 AM  

BECAUSE Spain is openly violating its stated principles while claiming that it isn't.

Blogger Chent October 06, 2017 11:14 AM  

Spain/EU is still immoral because they lie about their very reason for being.

EU is immoral, I grant you that. In addition, EU must be destroyed.

But Spain is another country in Europe. Enforcing its law is not their right, it's their duty.

And if Catalonia becomes independent, they will also have the duty of enforcing Catalan law.

Blogger Chent October 06, 2017 11:14 AM  

BECAUSE Spain is openly violating its stated principles while claiming that it isn't.

No, it's not.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine October 06, 2017 11:14 AM  

"I am giving you links and data."

Irrelevant ones. Stop lying.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine October 06, 2017 11:15 AM  

"No, it's not."

Straight lie. Can we ban this now?

Blogger Chent October 06, 2017 11:15 AM  

You still don't get it Chent. Catalonia is messed up. No one ever denied this, HOWEVER, they are (in this particular aspect), less messed up than Spain currently.

No, it's not. Catalonia is way more messed in this aspect than Spain. Since you don't give arguments, I don't bother to give then either.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine October 06, 2017 11:16 AM  

Chent, "this aspect" = democracy. Spain and the EU claim they are democratic. If you deny this, you're a liar.

Blogger Chent October 06, 2017 11:17 AM  

Straight lie. Can we ban this now?

Azure, you must prove this is a lie. You are not God so your word is automatically true. I give arguments and links. You give nothing.

About banning me, thank you for showing your intolerance. Since you can't argue, you want to ban me.

Blogger Chent October 06, 2017 11:21 AM  

Chent, "this aspect" = democracy. Spain and the EU claim they are democratic. If you deny this, you're a liar.

Well, at last, some semblance of argument that we can discuss. No, "I have the truth", "you are lying", "ban this guy".

Firstly, I don't believe in democracy. It is a lie for the elites to rule us while making us believe we are the ones who rule (the perfect tyranny). But this is another debate. Let's pretend I believe in democracy.

UE is not democratic because does not work as a democratic country. This is a very long topic, because the UE structure is complicated and it is not the topic of debate.

Spain is as democratic as any other country. I am amazed you say otherwise, but you could elaborate why you think this way.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine October 06, 2017 11:21 AM  

"I give arguments and links. You give nothing."

You have not provided me a single argument or link. Perhaps you've provided for others, but not for me, thus this is a lie.

To actually provide a salient link myself, here you go: https://infogalactic.com/info/Spanish_transition_to_democracy

"Since you can't argue, you want to ban me."

We've had this entire discussion before. You're completely incapable of both honesty and rational argument.

Blogger ZhukovG October 06, 2017 11:22 AM  

@Chent: None of what you say, whether factual or not, speaks to the point. The point is that the Spanish Government has completely mishandled this situation. It is a problem purely of Spain's making that has granted the moral high ground to a group of separatists, many of whom are probably very unpleasant people.

There is no amount of dialectical or rhetorical spin doctoring that you can do to change this.

Oh and a little historical tip. You don't need a majority behind you to win a revolution.

Blogger Chent October 06, 2017 11:24 AM  

To actually provide a salient link myself, here you go: https://infogalactic.com/info/Spanish_transition_to_democracy

Thank you for the link. I know the Spanish transition to democracy better than you. I lived it and you have read about it. Now, what's your point?

We've had this entire discussion before. You're completely incapable of both honesty and rational argument.

BS. Another "I say it so it must be true". You are the only one who is not providing arguments here.

Anonymous NobodyExpects October 06, 2017 11:27 AM  

Discussion got guided to useful topics.

There are problems with Catalan banks and independence.

1) Getting outside EU means no more access to cheap European Central Bank funds. Catalonia is absolutely unable to find outside financing because its bonds are rated at Central African levels.

2) Separating from the rest of Spain means no access to the FGD (Fondo de Garantías de Depósitos) a fund that protects deposits of small savers up to EUR100,000.

Catalan people are more business-savvy than "patriotic". Were a bank going to lose access to those two things, the only sensible thing to do is to take the money elsewhere, patriotism be damned. It is not for accident we are the ((( ))) of Spain.

And that is the reason that comment about patriotic Catalans putting their hard-earned monies in banks that support Independence was so utterly ignorant, arrogant, pig-headed, and moronic. Even for a slow, slow, slow Spaniard.

Also because no Catalan bank ever is going to put independence before its bottom line. With one exception.

That exception was Banca Catalana, whose CEO was one Jordi Pujol i Soley. It went down. Some people stated that the downfall of Banca Catalana was because it was more "Catalana" than "Banca", but it seems there was some foul play by its CEO. Unfortunately, when the case arrived in Court, Pujol was the regional president and was able to weasel out by claiming that the lawsuit against him was an "attack on Catalonia". That was the origin of the current mess.

Let me finish by asking apologies for introducing these details to the lovers of the "big picture".

Blogger Chent October 06, 2017 11:27 AM  

@Chent: None of what you say, whether factual or not, speaks to the point. The point is that the Spanish Government has completely mishandled this situation. It is a problem purely of Spain's making that has granted the moral high ground to a group of separatists, many of whom are probably very unpleasant people.

There is no amount of dialectical or rhetorical spin doctoring that you can do to change this.


I don't want to change this. I completely agree with it. I have qualified the Spanish government reaction as completely retarded, some days ago.

Oh and a little historical tip. You don't need a majority behind you to win a revolution.

I have said this some days ago. But you can't claim "we are the majority" when you are not. Of course, you can't still pursue independence with a minority (USA is an example and Latin America is another one)

Anonymous NobodyExpects October 06, 2017 11:29 AM  

Chent, you better ignore Yellow Piss. You will smell better.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine October 06, 2017 11:30 AM  

"Firstly, I don't believe in democracy. It is a lie for the elites to rule us while making us believe we are the ones who rule"

We've already covered this. Democracy is moronic. That's not the point.

"Let's pretend I believe in democracy."

We were already arguing from that supposed perspective, until you conveniently "forgot" yet again.

"UE is not democratic because does not work as a democratic country."

And yet it repeatedly claims that it is democratic.

https://infogalactic.com/info/Democratic_deficit_in_the_European_Union

That not everyone claim it is not the point, because some do and the debate is even supposedly still open. Obviously this is completely untrue. They aren't even slightly democratic, yet many of them lie about it in attempt to claim legitimacy.

"Spain is as democratic as any other country."

Allow me to quote myself, "BECAUSE Spain is openly violating its stated principles while claiming that it isn't."

and your response, "No, it's not."

Recall, you yourself just stated that Spain is "at least as democratic as any other country", thus I need provide no further link to prove so, as we have for the purposes of this argument already agreed that Spain claims to be democratic.

What part of denying Catalonia legitimate democratic say in its governance is not obviously hypocritical of Spain?

Blogger Chent October 06, 2017 11:34 AM  

Catalan people are more business-savvy than "patriotic".

Catalan people are very pragmatic when it comes to money. "La pela és la pela" is a Catalan saying (something difficult to translate, similar to "The buck matters").

They have lied to them and told them that, in an independent Catalonia, Catalan people will be much richer. Now that companies are fleeing, Catalan government is getting nervous.

Oriol Junqueras, the vicepresident of Catalan government, begged the banks not to flee Catalonia, with no avail.

https://www.elconfidencial.com/empresas/2017-10-06/independencia-cataluna-junqueras-panico-reunion-faine-oliu-fuga-empresas_1456447/

Blogger Azure Amaranthine October 06, 2017 11:36 AM  

Spain is less democratic than Catalonia.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine October 06, 2017 11:44 AM  

@69. Narcotic-Enthusiast, I wholeheartedly agree with your excoriation not to dwell on the proceeds of your dishonest mouth.

Blogger Chent October 06, 2017 11:50 AM  

We've already covered this. Democracy is moronic. That's not the point.

Agreed. That's not the point.

"Let's pretend I believe in democracy."

We were already arguing from that supposed perspective, until you conveniently "forgot" yet again.


I don't forget anything. It's you who claimed Spain is not democratic. But we can move on about this topic.

"UE is not democratic because does not work as a democratic country."

And yet it repeatedly claims that it is democratic.

https://infogalactic.com/info/Democratic_deficit_in_the_European_Union


Agreed. I have always said so. And I don't want to discuss the reasons why UE is not democratic. This is another debate

Spain is as democratic as any other country.

What part of denying Catalonia legitimate democratic say in its governance is not obviously hypocritical of Spain?


At last, the argument. This, Azure, IS an argument and we can discuss this.

You say that Spain is "denying Catalonia legitimate democratic say in its governance".

But this is completely false in several levels.

1) Democracy does not means "having elections any time a significant group of people wants to have elections". Democracy is not only elections. Let me put it easy:

Democracy = Elections + Rule of law

(Of course, this is an oversimplification, but still)

You can only have elections when the law says you can have elections. Hillary Clinton supporters are not entitled to have another election now, even if they were majority.

2) Catalan people have a democratic say in its governance. First, in the Spanish elections. Then, in the Catalan elections (the last Catalan elections were recent, and secessionist parties did not win 50% of the votes)

3) The law can be reformed, as in any other country. It is difficult to be reformed, of course, because nobody wants to live in a country where basic laws are changing constantly. This is why the draft of the Catalan constitution does not recognize self-determination rights to Valley of Aran (a Catalan region with a different language and history).

They play the victim of the same things they are willing to do to others. Catalonia is formed by four provinces. It is likely that the province of Girona and parts of the province of Barcelona (but not the Barcelona capital) will vote YES and the rest will vote NO. But they don't want to grant this part the right to remain in Spain.

It is self-determination for me but not for thee.



So, tell me, again

Blogger Chent October 06, 2017 11:53 AM  

Well, I have to go, Azure. But at least I am satisfied that we have had a real debate, with arguments from both sides. It was difficult to get there, but it was possible.

Blogger Lazarus October 06, 2017 11:57 AM  

Chent wrote:Oriol Junqueras, the vicepresident of Catalan government, begged the banks not to flee Catalonia, with no avail.

Socialists never expect a capital strike because they do not understand money.

Blogger John M October 06, 2017 11:59 AM  

@70. There are very clear differences between Direct Democracy and Representative Democracy, sounds like you are confusing both. In a Direct Democracy if the people of Catalan wants to leave Spain then they should be allowed to do so, but Spain like all Western countries (except Switzerland) are Representative Democracy. The Catalan people do not have the power to order Spain around through elections, what they do have is the power to elect representatives to make the case of secession to the Spanish government. Like it or not the Madrid government's stance on Catalan independence is probably the correct one, the issue of Catalan independence is one that should be made by all the people of Spain, not just the Catalans.

Blogger Chent October 06, 2017 12:03 PM  

Before going, breaking news

Artur Mas says Catalonia is not ready for "real independence" to Financial Times.

(Artur Mas is the former Catalan president, the one who started the secessionist process and, of course, one of the most important leaders of this process, even today

It is like George Washington saying "America is not ready for real independence".

)

It seems this is going down. We'll see.

http://www.elmundo.es/cataluna/2017/10/06/59d79e5046163f7a0a8b464c.html

Blogger Sam Spade October 06, 2017 12:18 PM  

@Chent ”Artur Mas says Catalonia is not ready for "real independence" to Financial Times.

(Artur Mas is the former Catalan president, the one who started the secessionist process and, of course, one of the most important leaders of this process, even today"

I was reading this minutes ago with my family. We couldn't believe this statement after all of these years of opposite words and actions.

What is he pretending? Maybe he has sensed this thing is going nowhere for now?

I think we all overestimated the impact of Rajoy last Sunday decisions. He surely made mistakes, and his autistic defense of democracy contradicts his authoritarian orders, but coherence is seemly not so important for the general public.

Otherwise there wouldn't be a good amount of multiculturalist leftist Catalonian separatists.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine October 06, 2017 12:19 PM  

"Democracy = Elections + Rule of law"

That's a convenient (and false) definition of democracy. Democracy has nothing whatsoever to do with rule-of-prior-established-law. If it did, democracy would never have been born in the first place, because it would be subject to the Monarchic or Other law that precluded it.

"You can only have elections when the law says you can have elections."

From where does the law derive its legitimacy, Chent? As a democratic country, the legitimacy of Spain's law derives directly from democracy itself. Any point at which that law violates any form of that democracy, it violates the legs upon which it stands.

"the last Catalan elections were recent, and secessionist parties did not win 50% of the votes"

Patently false. In the last Catalan elections, the secessionist parties won over 90% of the vote. You forgot to specify "legal" elections. Do you or do you not agree that legality has nothing to do with morality? Do you or do you not agree that legally, no democracy should exist in the first place, because every democracy began in violation of prior law?

"It is self-determination for me but not for thee."

This is exactly what Spain is doing to Catalonia.

Tell me, the law the precludes Spain from being split up, who voted on it? People who are dead now? So, would you say that the dead have more say than the living?

"at least I am satisfied that we have had a real debate, with arguments from both sides. It was difficult to get there, but it was possible."

Stop pretending. We've had this whole debate before in the other thread. "Difficult to get there" my ass. We were already there, but you conveniently forgot it.

Anonymous NobodyExpects October 06, 2017 12:26 PM  

Well, with a bit of luck, there would be less byzantine discussions on Spain, its existence, the slowness of its inhabitants, its genetics, its democratic credentials...

Yellow Piss will even get bored and find another outlet for his body fluids, fluoridated or not.

Blogger Sam Spade October 06, 2017 12:37 PM  

@NobodyExpects "Well, with a bit of luck, there would be less byzantine discussions on Spain, its existence, the slowness of its inhabitants, its genetics, its democratic credentials.."

Don't take it personally. Who cares?

Blogger Lazarus October 06, 2017 12:49 PM  

Chent wrote:Artur Mas says Catalonia is not ready for "real independence" to Financial Times.

Damn its hard to have a revolution these days. The financial sector and big business don't want to co-operate for some reason.

Power to the people, right on!

https://www.ft.com/content/7347414c-aa6f-11e7-93c5-648314d2c72c

Blogger Azimus October 06, 2017 12:50 PM  

49. Johnny October 06, 2017 11:08 AM
@28: Your remembrance of history is highly selective and amazingly arbitrary.


So much bluster. Sigh. I am willing to be enlightened, go ahead and enlighten me - who has made a good/productive alliance w/Russia since we stopped loading guns from the muzzle?

By way of recent history, the shift away from the detestable communist system as implemented by the USSR went badly. Along with losing control over conquered territories (not necessarily a bad thing), the internals of Russia went very badly. The social setup was not at all suitable to a rapid shift to a market economy and the country came close to being a failed state.

OK this is probably one of those "I'm not smart enough to understand" things w/IQ differential, but there appear to be some words missing that would connect the above analysis (which I don't necessarily disagree with) to my actual comment about an alliance w/Russia not being productive...?

Putin is an autocrat but the country retains a degree of democracy, and given that Putin pulled them out of the craziness that came before, I am surprised that he isn't even more popular than he is.

Agree with all of this.

As for Russia being a "nice" country, they are not nice and they are not going to become nice. The country suffers from long borders that have to be defended and has large internal ethnic minorities. But as for our interests, a weak Russia that is coming apart at the seams would produce enormous political instability right in the middle of the Eurasian land mass, and that would be far more dangerous than a stable Russia.

I can't help but wonder if you are really replying to my comment at all. I did not use the word "nice" in my comment, nor did I say anything about destabilizing Russia. I can't tell if this is binary thinking in action (i.e. "he doesn't want an alliance w/Russia therefore he wants to destroy Russia" - which is not the case), or if you're replying to someone else and mistakenly used @28, or what.

Anonymous NobodyExpects October 06, 2017 12:52 PM  

@Sam Spade Do not worry, lately I am watching this kind of discussions on topics most of posters have no clue about as the kind of play-fight mammal puppies engage. As I know I agree with most of them in the issues that matter most, it's kinda cute, but sometimes it is a bit messy.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine October 06, 2017 12:55 PM  

Narcotics-Enthusiast, you're just mad because you can't compose a coherent argument to save your life.

Anonymous NobodyExpects October 06, 2017 12:58 PM  

Did I say messy?

Blogger Alvin von Diaspar October 06, 2017 1:12 PM  

Azure Amaranthine:
"BECAUSE Spain is openly violating its stated principles while claiming that it isn't."

Here is, for the world to see, a demonstration of the intellectual inanity of the "alt-right" and many of the people participating in this blog.

You claim that Spain is violating its stated principles, and acuse those who do not agree of lying.

I would invite you to find any translation of the Spanish Constitution into English. I will spare you the hard work. Let's go to Section 1, paragraph 2:

"National sovereignty belongs to the Spanish people, from whom all State powers emanate".

Section 2, paragraph 1:
"The Constitution is based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish Nation, the common and indivisible homeland of all Spaniards...".

Now, anyone claming Spain is violating its stated principles, while knowing that the very beginning of its "stated principles" (aka the Constitution) has to do precisely with the "indivisible unity" of its territory, is either lying or intellectually limited.

These paragraphs that I've quoted, by the way, are analogous to very similar paragraphs in most constitutions of the world. Should Catalonia secede, you can take for granted its Constitution will speak of the "indivisible unity" of its territory, and its tribunals will persecute any sub-territory attempting to unileterally secede. That is how countries work.

The absolutely fundamental Spanish philosopher Gustavo Bueno has a must-read book called "Democratic Fundamentalism". He distinguishes several types of democracy. One type would be "bus-democracy", which is the type of democracy you'd get in a bus where people vote where they're going for vacation by show of hands. Political democracy is different, and, while it implies voting, it's not synonymous with voting. The conditions of voting (who votes, what gets decided) are equally or even more important.

That is why California cannot ban gun ownership or free-speech (in the form of "hate speech") through voting. The supreme LAW (the US Constitution) is above such attempts, which you could call "democratic" in the sense of a "bus-democracy", but not in the context of a political democracy.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents October 06, 2017 1:26 PM  

For those Spaniards who are apparently very, very slow...

Not all Spaniards are like that.

Anonymous NobodyExpect October 06, 2017 1:31 PM  

Appearances matter in a post-truth news environment. Or something like that.

Anonymous Gen. Kong October 06, 2017 1:43 PM  

Yann notes:
The big problem with Germany in the WW2 was the organized mass murdering of civil people.

That's true. Hitler's regime was not nationalist but imperialist. The nazis killed more white civilians than non-whites (14 million vs. 7 million). Even so, it's interesting to note that the Marxist civilian body-count dwarfs that of the nazis. Yet we see no laws against flying hammer and sickle in EUSSR do we? No outlawing of communist parties either. Certain dead civilians would appear more equal than others, in the hierarchy of those operating the grand scam of equality über alles which has been sold for decades on end. The EUSSR has been a fraud since inception.

Blogger Matamoros October 06, 2017 1:47 PM  

Look at what happened when the South left and formed its own country, the Confederate States of America. Five years of scorched earth by the Yankees, and a hundred years trying to recover under the beneficent rule of Washington, D.C.

Blogger Thucydides October 06, 2017 1:48 PM  

The main reason the Russians are pleased with events like Catalonia, or supports the movement of Syrians and others into Europe in large numbers, or makes moves to stir up the "Russians interfered with the US election" crowd isn't really based on upholding any principles.

Russia is no longer a "Great Power". It's GDP is around the same level as Spain or Italy, its population underwent a demographic crash after the Fall of the Wall, its former satellite nations turned decisively to the West at the first opportunity and Russia's southern borders are demographically threatened by rising Islamist populations, while the wealth of natural resources is increasingly coming into China's orbit, though purchase and outright movement of Chinese settlers into Russian territory.

Russia may still have nuclear weapons to exert influence, but in terms of modernizing conventional forces, can barely afford 12 Fifth generation aircraft and two battalions of modern T-14 Armata tanks. So given the really weak hand they are holding, and smarting from the loss of the empire the Soviet Union had created and international influence commensurate with Russia's national mythology (Moscow is the "Third Rome", and Russia has a unique destiny to unify and rule over the Western and Oriental civilizations), they look to low cost methods to leverage themselves. Sowing and supporting chaos in the West and across the world, and supporting this with ingenious propaganda (so called Hybrid Warfare) is certainly in line with Russian thinking and supporting Russia's goals to rebuild and become a true Great Power, if not a Superpower, once again.

So local troublemakers may be starting stuff, but the opportunistically Russians will watch carefully and work to exploit chaos and instability wherever it suits their interests.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine October 06, 2017 2:18 PM  

"The Constitution is based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish Nation, the common and indivisible homeland of all Spaniards..."

Cool story bro, now, direct question, from where does the constitution derive its validity?

Oh, right, you already answered that: "National sovereignty belongs to the Spanish people, from whom all State powers emanate."

Hell, you even make my argument for me:

"Should Catalonia secede, you can take for granted its Constitution will speak of the "indivisible unity" of its territory, and its tribunals will persecute any sub-territory attempting to unileterally secede. That is how countries work."

Let me reword this slightly into an extremely direct analogue and see where your precise mental incapability is.

"Should Spain form, you can take for granted its Constitution will speak of the "indivisible unity" of its territory, and its tribunals will persecute any sub-territory attempting to unileterally secede. That is how countries work."

Now, from what was Spain formed, and from what did it draw its validity in so doing? I'll repeat your quote:

"National sovereignty belongs to the Spanish people, from whom all State powers emanate."

Again, a little rewording in another direct analogue:

"National sovereignty belongs to the Catalonian people, from whom all State powers emanate."

So, what is your major malfunction, sonny?

Blogger Azure Amaranthine October 06, 2017 2:20 PM  

Spain is openly in violation of a direct (but less populated) mirror image of its own constitution. Thanks for doing the footwork for me on that one, Alvin.

Blogger newbietrader October 06, 2017 2:41 PM  

y'all realize that the supposed Catalonia "independence" movement is PRO EU, pro open borders and communist right? so how is that pro democracy? oh right, rather than serve fascist Madrid they will serve socialist/communist brussels so that makes all the difference.

according to Spanish Constitution, you know the RULE OF LAW the vote is illegal. but I guess y'all don't care about that either

FREEEEEDUUMMMBBBBBB!

Blogger Azure Amaranthine October 06, 2017 2:47 PM  

@96. newbietrader, as a newbie, you should probably try reading a bit more before you post.

Especially when your post totally misses and misrepresents all of our actual points, positions and perspectives on this topic.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents October 06, 2017 2:51 PM  

@96 newbietradertroll
y'all realize that the supposed Catalonia "independence" movement is PRO EU, pro open borders and communist right?

Yes. So?

Blogger Demonic Professor El October 06, 2017 2:52 PM  

I still agree on the overall that Catalonian independence is good in the long run as they will have to pay their own bills. And this has to do with knowing the psychology of the EU masters - which are much like Clinton and other globalistas. The only language they know is power and smashing that power down in as reactionary a manner as possible.

The EU won't abide any kind of negotiation to a nation leaving, or even renegotiation. Look at Poland, Hungary, the UK. Instead of negotiating the "migrants," they just slap down fines and engorge on their economies further. They are much like the Soviets, whose answer to most protests were to send in the tanks.

Any show of independence from the current order is responded to in this way. Of course, the EU's "send in the tanks" is "send in the migrants and steal the nation's money." Sure, there may be commies in Catalonia, but I would wager they would just flee to the EU countries anyway in the event they lose a general election or if their coup fails.

Blogger Demonic Professor El October 06, 2017 3:03 PM  

Another thought - laws and national constitutions are essentially contracts. Once you start stepping away from common law (theft, rape, murder, etc.) and getting into behavioral or social engineering, the ruling party has essentially violated the contract.

Laws are meant to enforce social order. Eastern despotism in places like China or India could work for the commoners as long as the commoners were left alone for the most part. The Western twist was citizenship and private property - the governments ostensibly had to follow the law and people were considered free even if serfs.

This is true throughout history - if the ruler violates the overall agreement, thus breaking the contract, people find new rulers.

The Catalonian Independence having commies isn't a sign that Catalonians are COMMIES AND LIBERALS so much that they want out of Spain, an EU satellite. Sure, the commies want part of the EU - but the overall crux is to be independent. Look at Greece - they elected Tsipras as the reformer who would negotiate with the EU or get out. Of course, they elected a Socialist and he doubled down on EU policies - and look at what's happened since then - Greece's Right parties have grown while the shadow economy deepens (much like the USSR in the 1980s).

In the short run, it looks bad. But in the long run it will probably work out quite well.

Blogger EejitInEspana October 06, 2017 3:18 PM  

My money is on some monday 3am meet & greets for all pro successionists to a surprise trip to Madrid courtesy of El Rey!

Anonymous Ivar October 06, 2017 3:34 PM  

I'm waiting for when the revolt against Brussels sprouts.

TZ, lol

Blogger Michael Kingswood October 06, 2017 4:34 PM  

"In contrast, Catalan secessionist parties are less than 50 percent of the vote"

And your point is....?

At no point during the revolution did more than a third of Americans favor breaking with Britain.

Blogger Michael Kingswood October 06, 2017 4:41 PM  

"Catalonia is absolutely unable to find outside financing because its bonds are rated at Central African levels."

All that means is they will actually have to spend less than they bring in in taxes.

A shocking bit of oppression for a government, I know. But not unachievable, if one is honest and not insane.

Blogger Galahad78 October 06, 2017 4:43 PM  

"Spain is less democratic than Catalonia."

This clearly shows that you do not know sh*t about Catalonian Government.

Blogger Michael Kingswood October 06, 2017 4:48 PM  

"They have lied to them and told them that, in an independent Catalonia, Catalan people will be much richer. Now that companies are fleeing, Catalan government is getting nervous."

Governments are notoriously poor judges of long-term trends.

Every political change can be poo-poo'd by citing the certainty of short term - SHORT TERM - economic turmoil.

That is not a proper frame from which to judge the probable benefits or costs.

Blogger Michael Kingswood October 06, 2017 4:50 PM  

"Democracy = Elections + Rule of law"

No, Democracy is rule by the mob. Law has nothing to do with it

Blogger Abyssus Invocat October 06, 2017 4:54 PM  

There's an awful lot of point missing going on here. Nobody here is saying that Catalan independence is wise or desirable. That's irrelevant. They have a right to do it just as much as did any African shithole in the 1950s. Maybe it will work out, maybe it turns into a European Zimbabwe. Either the EU shuts up and gets out of the way or I don't want hear another fucking word from them about self determination for East Wogistan.

Blogger DonReynolds October 06, 2017 5:06 PM  

In the European experience, use of the plebiscite has been often used to join or unite two separate countries together. I cannot recall any election where people voted themselves independent. The same was true of the American experience. Independence was not won by the results of a national election. So if Catalonia manages to achieve their independence by peaceful means, it will actually be a rare event.

Vox is entirely correct, of course. This turn of events must have the Russians feeling all smug and self-assured.

Spain must be feeling a bit foolish by opposing Catalan independence or at least ignorant of their own national history. Portugal was ruled by Spain in the past...so was the Netherlands....and much of the New World. Nearly all of which they have entirely lost through their own silliness...which is the part that Spain seems to have left behind everywhere they went.

Blogger DonReynolds October 06, 2017 5:17 PM  

Michael Kingswood wrote:"In contrast, Catalan secessionist parties are less than 50 percent of the vote"

And your point is....?

At no point during the revolution did more than a third of Americans favor breaking with Britain.


Your point is more valid than you suppose. During the American Revolution, the Patriots never had the support of more than a quarter of the population, and often it was much less. Slightly more than a quarter remained loyal to the Crown and put more troops in the field for the British side than the Patriots.

Half of the population did not take a side during the Revolution and just wanted to stay the hell out of it entirely....and maybe make a buck or two, selling their produce. Of course, the Brits actually paid in gold or real money, so trade tended to favor the occupying British.

It is a mistake to talk as though the British were some sort of foreign power who had somehow invaded the colonies and ruled over them. Yes, they were British and so were the colonists, and the British government was their own government, their flag, their laws and the troops were their own countrymen. It is easy to understate how difficult it is to get people to oppose their own government (and their own nation) by force of arms.

Anonymous krymneth October 06, 2017 5:31 PM  

Secret King NobodyExpects, it is so good of you to deign to enlighten is. Truly this is too small a forum for it, though.

Blogger Matamoros October 06, 2017 5:32 PM  

On the religion front, a good article:

How to Destroy Catholicism in America

https://www.thecatholicthing.org/2017/10/06/how-to-destroy-catholicism-in-america/

Blogger Azure Amaranthine October 06, 2017 6:09 PM  

"This clearly shows that you do not know sh*t about Catalonian Government."

No. It doesn't even require knowledge, it's readily apparent if you'd pull your head out of your ass for a moment. Catalonia's playing the game. Spain isn't, and it's Spain's game more than it is Catalonia's.

Catalonia just had a 90%+ result for secession from Spain, and that AFTER Spain tried to force them not to vote on it. This is clearly and plainly undemocratic on Spain's part, and Spain's documentation clearly states that it derives its political legitimacy from the democratic process it is currently and unarguably suppressing.

I'll say it again in direct contradiction of your obvious lie: Spain is currently less democratic than Catalonia. I could reword it "Spain is currently behaving in a less democratic fashion than Catalonia", but "Spain is less democratic than Catalonia" is technically correct.

"There's an awful lot of point missing going on here."

Yes, people do that when they're communicating and thinking based solely on their impulse-feels. When people aren't actually stopping to think for a moment, that happens.

"if Catalonia manages to achieve their independence by peaceful means, it will actually be a rare event."

True. Also not terribly relevant.

"Half of the population did not take a side during the Revolution and just wanted to stay the hell out of it entirely....and maybe make a buck or two, selling their produce."

An extremely salient point, especially for those posters who just cannot help but point out that the recent Catalonian vote "was undemocratic because most Catalonians didn't vote in it." No one cares about the people who didn't care enough to vote, and even if the vote were fixed somehow, that couldn't happen if the dissenting Catalonians both were numerous enough and cared enough to stop it.

Blogger Galahad78 October 06, 2017 6:37 PM  

113

You might be right in your rewording if you take only recent events into account. Your original statement, though, is not. That would need knowledge of Catalonian Government past behaviour.

However I understand this is not the main point of discussion so I'll not comment any further

Blogger Azure Amaranthine October 06, 2017 6:50 PM  

"You might be right in your rewording if you take only recent events into account."

Acceptable. I apologize for being far more aggressive than was necessary and for insulting you.

"Your original statement, though, is not."

You can't have it both ways. If "Spain is currently behaving in a less democratic fashion than Catalonia", then "Spain is less democratic than Catalonia" is therefore technically correct.

Blogger Galahad78 October 06, 2017 7:08 PM  

No offense taken, don't worry.

"You can't have it both ways"

I understand and agree about the "technically correct" part. I do have some objections but I don't feel that my command of English language is good enough to explain them clearly. In the end, though, it doesn't matter as these objections are irrelevant to the main point.

Of course, it could even be that these objections are bullshit XD


Anonymous Bellator Mortalis October 06, 2017 7:11 PM  

Regarding Russia - when I was in the service (nuclear strategic service) during the Cold War we did not refer to the Russians as our enemies. We referred to them as our opponents. Anyone calling them our enemies was soon corrected. I do not know if this applied throughout the US military, I doubt that, but within the areas where we had our fingers on the nuclear global mass holocaust triggers, that is how we operated.

I think the reason is this. Someone who is your opponent may cooperate with you on some things. An opponent today may even someday be an ally. But an enemy is an enemy and must be destroyed as soon as it is feasible to do so. If you disagree, then they are not really an enemy. If someone is your enemy, you must kill them, eradicate them, eliminate them; because if you do not they will kill you as soon as they can. An opponent merely needs to held off.

An SJW living next door is your opponent. But if you discover the entity living next door is a serial killer, it is time for arson, explosives, shooting, and the knife. You can live with a wolf next door. But not a saltwater crocodile. End of story.

Blogger Valtandor Nought October 06, 2017 7:44 PM  

Clearly, "Democracy" is meant to answer the question of how a country should be run. It's not meant to answer the question of which countries should exist, or which government any given person is to be a subject of.

Anonymous Mr. Rational October 06, 2017 8:40 PM  

Marvin Boggs wrote:Given that we now have reasonable, effective, efficient means of working remotely, do you think it would have a positive effect to have the bureaucrats (and maybe the politicians) spread across the country (i.e. burst the bubble)?
Telecommuting from their home states would destroy the power of the K Street lobbyists, as they'd no longer have better access to the officeholders than their own constituents do.  Also, conducting all meetings over the equivalent of Skype would make them open and expose arm-twisting, log-rolling and other shenanigans.

The Deep State would never allow such a thing to happen, so it'll happen over their dead bodies or never.

Blogger Johnny October 06, 2017 8:49 PM  

Bellator Mortalis wrote:Regarding Russia - when I was in the service (nuclear strategic service) during the Cold War we did not refer to the Russians as our enemies. We referred to them as our opponents. Anyone calling them our enemies was soon corrected.

If we had had an all out nuclear exchange with the Russians in the early period it would have been more like race genocide for the Soviet populations than the winning of a war. And later when the Russians caught up, it would have been mutual assisted suicide, with the winners, if there were any, countries that didn't get targeted and weren't downwind.

Perhaps there was the hope of some restraint from both sides.

Blogger Lazarus October 06, 2017 8:58 PM  

What Catalans want is irrelevant. What Spain wants is irrelevant. What the EuroGroup wants is relevant.

Moreover, the Eurogroup, where all the important economic decisions are taken, is a body that does not even exist in European law, that operates on the basis that the ‘strong do as they please while the weak suffer what they must’, that keeps no minutes of its proceedings, and whose only rule is that its deliberations are confidential – that is, not to be shared with Europe’s citizenry. It is a set-up designed to preclude any sovereignty traceable back to the people of Europe.”

So there are no rules, no records, no democratic process and no democratic accountability…and this is what is in charge of the world’s largest economic engine.



The hopelessly corrupt structure of the Eurozone & the Eurogroup
http://thesaker.is/the-hopelessly-corrupt-structure-of-the-eurozone-the-eurogroup/

Anonymous NobodyExpects October 07, 2017 7:31 AM  

krymneth wrote:Secret King NobodyExpects, it is so good of you to deign to enlighten is. Truly this is too small a forum for it, though.

Indeed, but it is fun to watch, sometimes.

No king, however.

Anonymous Avalanche October 07, 2017 10:16 AM  

@22 "do you think it would have a positive effect to have the bureaucrats (and maybe the politicians) spread across the country (i.e. burst the bubble)?"

No no NO! Who then would pay for their fancy apartments and expensive restaurant meals? Why, they'd have to live near their countrymen -- ICK! See them in the markets? Have "those people" filling up the fancy restaurants! No no -- better by FAR to have them all collocated -- so they can make sneaky deals out of the main Chamber, out of sight!

Also: it makes them easier to hit with artillery rounds if they're all in one place!

/sarc.

Anonymous Avalanche October 07, 2017 10:27 AM  

@49 "Russia ... has large internal ethnic minorities."

What if THEY decide they want out? S'pose Russia wouldn't have many qualms about slapping them down hard? (Kinda Chinese, that way?)

Anonymous Avalanche October 07, 2017 11:28 AM  

@109 "American experience. Independence was not won by the results of a national election."

Yes, "we" (Americans) won the bloody WAR against England to gain independence, and then "we" (the South) LOST the bloody bitter war against the treacherous North -- and we lost independence and damned near everything!

Anonymous Avalanche October 07, 2017 11:36 AM  

@117 " Someone who is your opponent may cooperate with you on some things. An opponent today may even someday be an ally. But an enemy is an enemy and must be destroyed as soon as it is feasible to do so. If you disagree, then they are not really an enemy. If someone is your enemy, you must kill them, eradicate them, eliminate them; because if you do not they will kill you as soon as they can. An opponent merely needs to held off."

Hmmmmm. I think, then, I would declare antifa, BLM, blac block (hell, they can't even SPELL!)the rest, plus a LOT of the Left to BE my enemy! NOT my opponent but my enemy as THEY are dedicated to the complete and total destruction of me, my kind, my nation, and my posterity. Arm up, ammo, and lift!

Anonymous Avalanche October 07, 2017 11:39 AM  

@119 "The Deep State would never allow such a thing to happen, so it'll happen over their dead bodies"

I'm okay with that, when do we start?

Anonymous Avalanche October 07, 2017 12:10 PM  

Interesting entry here (dunno who this guy is, but seems smart?):

https://straightlinelogic.com/2017/10/06/youre-on-your-own-by-robert-gore/

"If the world seems incomprehensible now, just wait.

Within a twenty-four-hour span the Catalonian people voted 90 percent in favor of secession from Spain, despite the Spanish government’s effort to violently squelch the referendum, and a man in a Las Vegas hotel room opened fire on a concert, killing fifty-nine and wounding over 500. There’s no tangible connection between the two incidents, but they illustrate incipient forces still gathering steam that are transforming the world.
...
Standing in opposition to the forces of decentralized violence are the forces of centralized violence, governments. Catalonia offers a useful illustration. Violence was the government’s loud and clear cry that it had no other argument for preventing Catalonian succession. The wealthy region pays a disproportionate share of Spain’s taxes and gets less back than it puts in. Catalans are a distinct ethnic subgroup, attenuating any so-called blood ties between Catalonia and Spain. Suppression was only partially successful and 90 percent of those Catalonians who voted chose independence.

A wonder in Catalonia was that masses of demonstrators clearly outnumbered Spanish police forces, but made no attempt to fight back against their brutality. This will be the exception rather than the rule as these types of conflicts escalate, which they will.

A joint wonder of Catalonia and Las Vegas is that gun banners continue to argue that private ownership of guns isn’t a bulwark against governmental tyranny, that civilized, gun-banning governments don’t tyrannize. How different would last weekend in Catalonia have been if Catalans had guns? How different would the future be if the Spanish government had to deal with private firearm possession as it decided on its response to say, a declaration of Catalonian independence? Sure, governments protect your rights, but pass the ammo.
..."

Anonymous NobodyExpects October 07, 2017 12:14 PM  

@128.

I do not know if that speculation is an example of reasoning done using bad data, i.e. garbage in, garbage out, or an example of not letting reality to ruin a good theory.

Blogger Abyssus Invocat October 07, 2017 4:59 PM  

Well said. I hadn't seen it put quite so succinctly before.

Post a Comment

Rules of the blog
Please do not comment as "Anonymous". Comments by "Anonymous" will be spammed.

<< Home

Newer Posts Older Posts