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Saturday, January 27, 2018

No problem, Sam

Sam Harris never thinks anything through:
"Alt-right: You can't keep blaming us for our ancestors crimes against other people
Also Alt-right: We are just as responsible for our ancestors accomplishments as they are

You can't have it both ways."
Absolutely. Stop blaming us for our ancestors' crimes against other people. We are not responsible for our ancestors' accomplishments, only for our own accomplishments and our own crimes.

Now will you stop? Yeah, I didn't think so.

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48 Comments:

Blogger Matt January 27, 2018 3:45 PM  

He really fancies himself an intellectual.

Blogger NO GOOGLES January 27, 2018 3:51 PM  

Jesus Sam Harris is really out to prove how much of a midwit he is. The whole point was "if you get to blame us for our ancestors crimes, we get to take credit for their accomplishments".

They were always the ones that were trying to have it both ways.

Anonymous Godfrey January 27, 2018 3:51 PM  

LMAO... Oh come on!... really now should Sam Harris be the guy lecturing people about inconsistency?


Anonymous Charlottesvillain January 27, 2018 3:52 PM  

@1 He's not nearly the big-brained nibba he thinks he is. That tweet is riddled with holes, and detached from reality.

Blogger Geoarrge January 27, 2018 3:54 PM  

We cannot claim credit for our ancestors' accomplishments, but we have a right to inherit them and be grateful.

Blogger Katechon January 27, 2018 3:55 PM  

What's the source of this alleged quote?

Blogger Zarathustra's Bastard January 27, 2018 3:56 PM  

Another way of conceptualising 'the left' is as the belief that new, rational, modern people can engineer utopia, transcending nation and creed with science and ethics.

Even though they're currently on the nose because diversity, the New Atheist types are always going to resonate more with the left because they're engaged in what is ultimately the same project.

Blogger Al January 27, 2018 4:00 PM  

Is Harris of the (((horrific tribe)))?

Anonymous A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Deplorable Cents January 27, 2018 4:04 PM  

Sam Harris should know we forge our spirts in the tradition of our ancestors.

Blogger Jack Burroughs January 27, 2018 4:10 PM  

"Alt-right: You can't keep blaming us for our ancestors crimes against other people
Also Alt-right: We are just as responsible for our ancestors accomplishments as they are"

Harris is strawmannirg the Alt Right.

The Alt Right, as I understand it, takes a much more nuanced position.

Alt Right: "You can't blame us for our ancestors' crimes against other people, unless you also blame other groups for *their* ancestors' crimes against other people. Because to focus relentlessly on the misdeeds of one group, while ignoring the misdeeds of all the other groups, is to create the false impression that the group you're focusing on is uniquely evil."

Also Alt Right: "If you're going to condemn us for our ancestors' crimes, then you must also credit us with our ancestors' accomplishments."

Also Alt Right: "We take pride in our ancestors' accomplishments, even as we acknowledge their crimes, and have learned from them."

There is no contradiction in any of that, anywhere.

Blogger tublecane January 27, 2018 4:16 PM  

"Don't attempt to tease out the good from the bad in the past. Throw the past away altogether and trust us."

Anonymous Charlottesvillain January 27, 2018 4:17 PM  

@6 http://boards.4chan.org/pol/thread/158213716

Anonymous TD January 27, 2018 4:32 PM  

The responsibility to preserve the heritage of those accomplishments and all they entail, including and especially indoor plumbing, is different from the person claiming that they were responsible for it themselves. That heritage includes the culture that produced those accomplishments.

BTW, was conquest a crime? Was the Middle Kingdom a great accomplishment or a series of atrocities perpetuated on the city states, kingdoms & sundry of groups absorbed over the ages? What about the Great Wall? Should've let those Mongol migrants through and knock down that symbol of exclusion and oppression.

Blogger Tatooine Sharpshooters' Club January 27, 2018 4:33 PM  

I was brought up on a side street, listen now
I learned how to lie before I could eat
I was educated with bull snot
When I start lyin', oh, I can't stop

I'm a straw man
(Doo doo doot doo doo doot)
I'm a straw man
(Doo doo doot doo doo doot)

Anonymous BBGKB January 27, 2018 4:34 PM  

Just a reminder being able to recognize yourself in a mirror before you start raping is an accomplishment, even ants beat blacks to this achievement.

Cultural Variations in Children’s Mirror Self-Recognition
http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0022022110381114

Anonymous Looking Glass January 27, 2018 4:40 PM  

I missed the dust ups with Sam, but I'm going to go with, "he's not too bright, is he?".

Anonymous tommy January 27, 2018 4:41 PM  

(((Projection and obliviousness on display here.)))

I can think of no ethnic group that routinely demands more collective credit than that to which Harri's own mother belonged...

We gave you Einstein!
Look at all our Nobel Prizes!

..and yet refuses more collective blame...

We aren't responsible for the political cult of Marxism and its consequent genocides...

Don't blame us for miring psychology in pseudoscientific Freudianism for half a century!

While I await Harris's condemnation of such routine hypocritical Semitic ethnocentrism, I really won't be holding my breath.

I imagine Harris actually thinks that discovering that people routinely want the credit but not the blame for things they personally took no part in is some sort of profound insight. The sort of discovery many of us noticed in our teenage years occurs to him only five decades into life. The child-like Jewish male: intellectually precocious but eternally unreflective and emotionally underdeveloped.

Anonymous Random American January 27, 2018 4:46 PM  

10. Right on all counts. It's a gigantic caricature made of straw and manure to start with.
"We are just as responsible for our ancestors accomplishments as they are."

Show me one "alt-right" person (or anyone, really) who has ever said this. The closest you can even get is people who say that we have an obligation to maintain those accomplishments or to continue them. A healthy sense of pride and belonging is a necessary component of that ideal.
Having a sense of pride, belonging, or the sense of a continued journey with one's ancestors is in no way the same thing as an individual or group "claiming credit" for the accomplishments of past individuals or groups.

And yes, it is doubly dishonest because of the hypocrisy. Whites have committed no unique evil. Sam would never seek to apply his standard to Indian tribes or Asian religions that even verge on ancestor worship and emphasize the continuance of the group past into the future through the young, or seek to shame the descendants of those non-whites who have committed genocide upon genocide.

Apparently, whites must be stripped of all healthy connections to their past and their community, in order to pay for past crimes that no other groups are ever expected to atone for.

If Sam's critique was an honest one, Vox would be completely correct(and is, as far as his statement goes), but given the obvious double standards, the singling out of one group, and conflation of "cultural pride" with "claiming credit", I can't give Sam any credit at all. If anything, it's amazing how much complete BS he manages to pack into such a short statement.

Blogger Goes211 January 27, 2018 4:56 PM  

Why is there no link to the actual quote? I hate when these threads are started but there is no way to look at the actual quote or check context.

Anonymous Man of the Atom January 27, 2018 5:16 PM  

Goes211 wrote:Why is there no link to the actual quote? I hate when these threads are started but there is no way to look at the actual quote or check context.

LMGTFY

Amazing new technology.

Blogger kh123 January 27, 2018 5:20 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Jack Burroughs January 27, 2018 5:31 PM  

Random American: "If anything, it's amazing how much complete BS he manages to pack into such a short statement."

You're right. It's almost a poem.

Blogger APL January 27, 2018 5:34 PM  

"We gave you Einstein! Look at all our Nobel Prizes!"

No, We, the West, gave Einstein the ability to be a world class scientist. If he'd been squatting in some remote shithole of the Ottoman Empire, 10:1 we'd never have heard of him.

Blogger pyrrhus January 27, 2018 5:40 PM  

Quote doesn't even make any sense--when has anyone taken credit for his ancestors' achievements?

Anonymous Anonymous January 27, 2018 5:43 PM  

So I misread the name of the object of this post as Samuel T. Francis. I knew he was dead, but just to make sure I was not losing my mind I hit Infogalactic real fast.

Yep, Sam is still gone. I must say, I miss his columns.

By the way, Infogalactic has a decent article on him while the wikipedia one is terrible. Surprise!

Blogger The Kurgan January 27, 2018 5:53 PM  

I honestly think Sam Harris is retarded. No joke. I think he's sub-normal.

Anonymous Crew (not the one who makes stupid claims) January 27, 2018 6:33 PM  

We are not responsible for our ancestors' accomplishments, only for our own accomplishments and our own crimes.

However, I think we can justifiably say that our ancestors accomplishments are better than the accomplishments of the ancestors of all the blacks and browns in the world, not to mention their current accomplishments.

Blogger bob kek mando January 27, 2018 6:49 PM  

if it's a valid tweet, it appears that Sam has deleted it.

https://twitter.com/SamHarrisOrg

Blogger Johnny January 27, 2018 7:44 PM  

This stuff never really rises above high class name calling and should be treated as such. Defamation in lawyer talk. Rhetoric as the term is used here.

Anonymous The Watcher of the Skies January 27, 2018 7:57 PM  

when a man is obsessed with his own ideology, he'll go as far as violating his own logic.

Blogger Ceerilan January 27, 2018 8:03 PM  

The fake self-contradictory pair of statements is a particularly silly form of strawman argument for several reasons. It attributes statements from different people as if they were representative of the same cohesive philosophy. It uses the vanilla form of the strawman fallacy to put words in someone's mouth. It ignored the idea that a paradox may be expressed in terms of contradictory statements to highlight a particular problem.

In other words, Sam likes his fallacy with toppings.

Anonymous Jack Amok January 27, 2018 8:59 PM  

However, I think we can justifiably say that our ancestors accomplishments are better than the accomplishments of the ancestors of all the blacks and browns in the world, not to mention their current accomplishments.

Or... alt-right: Go ahead and see if you guys can duplicate the accomplishments of my ancestors without me doing it for you. Here, you can have all their notes and diagrams. Good luck, I'll be over here, just leave me a...

...why are you following me?

Blogger Zerk J January 27, 2018 9:10 PM  

The white race is almost singularly responsible for both the industrial revolution and the lesser known green revolution. About 6 of 7 people alive today owe their very existance to the accomplishments, ambitions, and charity of the white race. The white race is the keystone race.

Blogger Matthew McDaniel January 27, 2018 9:12 PM  

Sams worldview is informed by studying Hinduism in India. Why would I listen to anything he has to say.

Blogger Roger Hill January 27, 2018 10:24 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Roger Hill January 27, 2018 10:27 PM  

Years ago my atheist sister sent me a copy of "The End of Faith" by Sam Harris. I read it cover to cover. About a quarter of the way through the book, I was becoming very amused. Every chapter brought more and more laughter. The thing was practically dripping with easy targets. The Email conversations with my sister became even more interesting.

Though I can't be certain, my gut feeling is that she hoped the book might silence my apologetic approaches with her and her oft stated objections to faith in Christ. Sam's book had the opposite effect. I had a wonderful time exploiting Sam's complete lack philosophical acumen with sister.

Blogger Tom Bridgeland January 28, 2018 1:53 AM  

An aside. Thanks Vox. I wrote a paper for a theology class last fall on Sam Harris. Having read your stuff was exceptionally helpful.

Anonymous FrankNorman January 28, 2018 2:19 AM  

What comes through from people like Harris is projection - their only model for how anyone thinks is themselves, and they really have no insight into how people who are different from them see the world. So everything they accuse you of is really a confession on their part.

Anonymous FrankNorman January 28, 2018 2:23 AM  

And maybe some of them really do not understand that in the West, we believe in individual accountability, not collective blaming.

Blogger LP9 January 28, 2018 2:28 AM  

10, 11 taken notice.

TIA!

So according to Sam the collective is at fault when, assist my thinking if I am wrong, I am an individual, random person only responsible for myself and what little I can do for those whom cannot do for themselves as Americans.

What now? It is our fault we are Caucasian, of course.

Sam Harris sat in the filthy seat of Joe Rogan's show where "Amy swear bear Schumer" sat in, let "swear bear Laura Loomer" sit in the empty moron chair too, King, Queen nothings.

TIA is being forgotten. Vox, super intel already did rings around such people.

Humble atheist? No they announce their atheism for you to accept, antifa, rebellious alleged atheists (some) sick people need your validation 24-7 as if I give a damn about the damned I cannot save them, that is playing God, appeasing them, loving the the worst in people is nothing but sin. God can address them, I dont care for stupid rebellious attention needies.

Anonymous Alice De Goon January 28, 2018 3:18 AM  

My ancestors "crimes" and my ancestors' accomplishments were undertaken to accomplish only one thing: to ensure the DNA in my family line (or the DNA of the people who are the closest to me,) gets perpetuated. As an Atheist, Sam Harris should recognize that from a purely materialist perspective, there are no "crimes" in nature. That Nature is only interested in copying genes and any morality we have is just Nature "fooling" us into patterns of thinking that accomplish this goal over the long term. Therefore he has no right to be outraged over which genetic groups are better at self-perpetuation than others because (to him,) all morals are nothing but a sham.

Harris is only outraged over "morality" because he realizes that people of Northern European descent are better at the self-perpetuation game than others, and he needs to use underhanded methods (like appealing to a Christian's sense of morality,) in order to impede them.

Anonymous Dalo January 28, 2018 4:51 AM  

Gday Jack,

Excellent stuff. You basically took Harris' ill-conceived comment and stuck it a blender, poured it into a centrifuge, removed and poured it into a baking tray and thrown it into the oven on high for 7 hours, eaten; and then shat on his lawn.

Always great to read the reason and logic behind what makes us us. Great stuff.

Anonymous AB.Prosper January 28, 2018 5:02 AM  

FrankNorman wrote:And maybe some of them really do not understand that in the West, we believe in individual accountability, not collective blaming.



This might be part of the problem actually. In tribal warfare all members of the tribe are liable for the tribes actions

Since the lines of identity are so deep rooted I'd say a rival tribe is what we are facing more than anything political.

If we were willing to suspend the Constitution under emergency powers (perfectly legal BTW) and use Bills of Attainder it would greatly simplify matters. Make sure you get the right people and boom done.

This would break the enemies assets and manpower base quickly , in a matter of weeks in fact.

Collective punishment works and as Leftists always use all the time it no reason the .Alt Right shouldn't reserve the privilege also.

A little more on topic, if somehow I bought Harris's notion and I do not it occurs to me the White people have accomplished far more good than bad in the grand scheme and are the only civilization that would allow someone like him to spout off in public anyway

Weighing say antibiotics and the green revolution alone against whatever sins he thinks Y/T guilty of should convince him of that

All that aside, strong Atheism is stupid on it face. Its impossible to disprove the existence of a deity and there is mountains of circumstantial evidence that at least one exists

You want to argue the agnostic POV, evidence is weak I'm OK with that. Want to argue which ones if any are true, that's cool too but no one has a valid argument for hard Atheism

Blogger manfred arcane January 28, 2018 5:27 AM  

@33
Like hell it is... His understanding of Le Eastern Philosophy (TM) is stuck in the milieu of late 19th century materialists. He belongs to sort of people that were already ridiculed by the likes of Rudolph Otto, ie when he talks of Westerners who see Buddhism in the context of Western materialist pessimism.

Blogger Roger Hill January 28, 2018 5:58 AM  

@36
She pretty much became the silent atheist. Her militancy and bravado melted away.
But just recently she told our mutual sibling that she has begun to pray. I'm not sure what that means as yet, and my other sibling did not feel comfortable exploring in depth her. At the very least it seems atheism is no longer viable for her.

Blogger wreckage January 28, 2018 8:36 AM  

If my grandfather built a bridge, then he built a bridge. To say he did so is no boast. That he was also an adulterer may be true, but I carry no shame for that, since that act is now past. The bridge however is not.

Sam Harris confuses the material inheritance of the past with the moral responsibility for specific crimes of the past. He couldn't ethics his way out of a wet paper bag.

Anonymous User January 28, 2018 12:30 PM  

We ARE our ancestors accomplishments! That's what we're proud of.

Blogger Mike January 28, 2018 2:55 PM  

"We shouldn't blame our ancestors for living in the past."

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