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Friday, March 30, 2018

Antipope Francis

Many, if not most Christians have been extremely dubious about the legitimacy of the so-called Pope Francis. Now there are serious questions, even among Catholics, that concern whether the man is even a Christian at all:
Scalfari: “What about bad souls? Where are they punished?”

Bad souls “are not punished,” Pope Francis is quoted, “those who do not repent and cannot therefore be forgiven disappear. There is no hell, there is the disappearance of sinful souls.”

On the first Holy Thursday, Judas betrayed Christ. And of Judas the Lord said, “Woe to that man by whom the Son of Man shall be betrayed; it were better for him if that man had never been born.”

Did the soul of Judas, and those of the monstrous evildoers of history, “just fade away,” as Gen. Douglas MacArthur said of old soldiers? If there is no hell, is not the greatest deterrent to the worst of sins removed?

What did Christ die on the cross to save us from?

The Vatican swiftly issued a statement saying the pope had had a private conversation, not a formal interview, with his friend, Scalfari.

The Vatican added: “The textual words pronounced by the pope are not quoted. No quotation of the aforementioned article must therefore be considered as a faithful transcription of the words of the Holy Father.”

Sorry, but this will not do. This does not answer the questions the pope raised in his chat. Does hell exist? Are souls that die in mortal sin damned to hell for all eternity? Does the pope accept this belief? Is this still the infallible teaching of the Roman Catholic Church?
This is not Christianity. These are not Biblical teachings. In fact, this is not even religion. This is John Lennon's Imaginism elevated and amplified by an extremely silly and not particularly intelligent man who has accidentally revealed his true thinking.

The Vatican's attempt to sweep these uncomfortable opinions under the rug as being non-ex cathedra personal discourse on the part of an individual who merely happens to be the Bishop of Rome is not conclusive, but it certainly is damning by faint and evasive defensiveness.

Pat Buchanan is absolutely right to note the central question this raises. After all, if there is no Hell and there is no sin, then there was never any need for Jesus Christ to die on the cross. And yet, we observe daily the ways in which people are sinful, that evil exists, and that Man needs Jesus Christ.

That being said, don't even think about trying to divert this into Protestant vs Catholic, Round 475,838. Any commenter who attempts to do so will be summarily spammed.

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232 Comments:

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Blogger Michael West March 30, 2018 8:09 AM  

"mere ex cathedra conversation" -- this phrasing is wrong. You mean that the conversation is not ex cathedra.

Yes, the Vatican denial is histerical. Either Francis said those things or he did not. The denial is "He didn't say -that-! And if he did, it wasn't official, and who can know what he actually -said- but we can't say -that- because we are the spokescritters and we must know what he said."

Blogger Jeff aka Orville March 30, 2018 8:17 AM  

So, as a Baptist, I know what we do with heretics. I'm curious about what recourse Catholics have when the Pope goes seriously off the rails. Do the Bishops and Cardinals clean house? Are there enough of them that hold to the traditional teachings to do that?

Blogger James Dixon March 30, 2018 8:21 AM  

> That being said, don't even think about trying to divert this into Protestant vs Catholic, Round 475,838. Any commenter who attempts to do so will be summarily spammed.

Thanks for removing temptation from my path.

Blogger tweell March 30, 2018 8:23 AM  

The traditional method of dealing with a wayward Pope is a muscular monk with a large pillow.

Blogger jijijeac March 30, 2018 8:24 AM  

Francisc is the first affirmative action pope. he got elected because latin america holds the largest number of catholics and their expansion nowadays is more into africa and asia. Expect more monkey popes in the future. Virtually any traditionally white church that starts accepting mongrels eventually falls into sjw hands.

Blogger CM March 30, 2018 8:27 AM  

So, as a Baptist, I know what we do with heretics. I'm curious about what recourse Catholics have when the Pope goes seriously off the rails. Do the Bishops and Cardinals clean house? Are there enough of them that hold to the traditional teachings to do that?

The greatest failure of the church, as a whole (with the possible exception of baptists) is to route out and remove heretics from their midst.

The things I have heard... hierarchical churches are just 1000x worse. What good is apostolic succession if those the apostles appoints should have been removed from the church or excommunicated ages ago?

We are so far removed from the tradition of cutting off hands that offend us, I don't know if we even remember how to do it.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan March 30, 2018 8:28 AM  

SJW pope, the end

Blogger Laramie Hirsch March 30, 2018 8:29 AM  

I do not think it is mere coincidence that the plaster started falling off the ceiling at St. Peters shortly after the Pope denied Hell...during Holy Week of all weeks.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5561483/Plaster-rains-ceiling-St-Peters-Basilica.html

I also do not think it is a coincidence that the Chinese Tiangong-1 space station--translated as HEAVENLY PALACE--will be crashing to Earth on Easter. My only boggle is what it is a metaphor for. Perhaps it is a typological reminder of The Rebel Lucifer's fall from Heaven, and that worldly men are doomed to have their own secular "heavens" fail.

Those are my thoughts today, anyway.

Blogger Conor Foran March 30, 2018 8:30 AM  

Per Canon 188 Benedict XVI failed to resign from the papacy. He remains to this day the one and only reigning Pope of Rome.

Pray that Antipope Bergoglio be deposed and his heresies crushed.

Set thou the sinner over him: and may the devil stand at his right hand. When he is judged, may he go out condemned; and may his prayer be turned to sin. May his days be few: and his bishopric let another take. Psalm 108:6-8

Blogger McChuck March 30, 2018 8:31 AM  

Why is this guy still Pope? Popes can be fired. The Cardinals must want him to stay in place for some reason.

So much for the first 'wise Latino' Pope. He's living proof that Communism is a jealous god, and will permit no others.

Blogger Amy March 30, 2018 8:32 AM  

So. Orthodoxy, then.

It has to be. Even given “infallibility” (only applicable in certain circumstances in any case), this statement from Bergoglio is troubling, or should be, to the billions of Christians worldwide who. Process Christ crucified as salvation. No hell, no need for Christ. No need for the church.

I can tolerate even a married pope or one with illegitimate children before one whom proclaims the foundation of our faith is a null fairytale.

Blogger Dirtnapninja March 30, 2018 8:34 AM  

The statement from the vatican reminds me of something Sir. Humphrey would say..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85fx0LrSMsE

Blogger Laramie Hirsch March 30, 2018 8:36 AM  

I've recently written the following on my blog:

The answer is that our shepherds have turned their backs on what is right. The leaders of our society have tossed aside what is true and good. Instead, leaders have become materialistic careerists. Their interests are no longer for the public good. And so, people have become forced to fend for themselves. They have their backs up against a wall, and they must fashion whatever crude means is the most effective for their survival.

Bishop Williamson recently brought up this phenomenon. A layman recently mentioned to him that “things are fractured almost beyond belief – everywhere.” Bp. Williamson reminds us that “When Our Lord was struck in the Garden of Gethsemane all the Apostles were scattered.” It is a fitting discussion, as this is Holy Week, and the Garden of Gethsemane is not far from our minds.

All of the world’s leadership is struck. Authority had been injured. It has become compromised. Leadership’s credibility is bleeding to death. Positions of authority are becoming abused, misused, and transformed into mockeries. The people have recourse only to themselves. The people have become scattered, and for now, they’re on their own.


As the SSPX says, we must try to keep a pilot light on until this Crisis has passed over us.

Blogger 357Delta March 30, 2018 8:36 AM  

The RCC has learned how to handle corrupt and power-hungry popes pretty well but a pope that is a theological mess is going to send the church into crisis.

Blogger Looking Glass March 30, 2018 8:36 AM  

Christian corollary to Godwin's Law is that you'll eventually argue the Reformation.

As to the story, I saw it crop up yesterday. The fact the Pope is a good friend with a very prominent Italian atheist is pretty worrying on its own, then the Vatican's word-smithing to try to get around the issue should go down as legendary. Though this isn't exactly out of sorts for other things Francis has said over the last few years.

Convergence kills all institutions, and the RCC might be stuck with this Pope for a while.

Blogger Thad tuiol March 30, 2018 8:37 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Lovekraft March 30, 2018 8:41 AM  

OT but hilarious.

Cernovich challenges California washed-up actor Michael Rapaport to a charity fight.

https://twitter.com/Cernovich/status/979531726899703808/video/1

Blogger Vaughan Williams March 30, 2018 8:42 AM  

Many New Testament believers believe in "Soul sleep", and do not believe in Hell. Jehovah's Witnesses and others that come from the Adventist movement. They base this on careful reading of the Bible. Hellfire, as traditionally taught in the Churches (Catholic and Protestant), can be well argued to be not Scriptural.

I note that Gawker was taken down, not for the evil they did, but because they exposed an evil: a man committed adultery with another man's wife.

Many people attack Islam for the good things it does as well as the bad.

And now the Pope, who I have no love for, is being attacked for saying something that any theologian has figured out, who is not bound to uphold a particular Church creed over Sola Scriptura.

Blogger Lovekraft March 30, 2018 8:42 AM  

As soon as I saw the interview was conducted by an avowed atheist and promoter of progressive agenda, my skeptic alarm went off.

Let's wait and see how the Pope reacts. It could turn out quite well: expose the interviewer as a fraud and corrupt, while reaffirming the perils of sin.

Blogger Thad tuiol March 30, 2018 8:43 AM  

Cara Papa Francis,
Please recite the following before you go to bed:

Credo in Deum Patrem Omnipotentem, Creatorem caeli et terrae, et in Jesum Christum Filium Eius unicum, Dominum nostrum, qui conceptus est de Spiritu Sancto, natus ex Maria Virgine, passus sub Pontio Pilato, crucifixus, mortuus et sepultus. Descendit ad inferos, tertia die resurrexit a mortuis, ascendit ad caelos. Sedet ad dexteram Dei Patris Omnipotentis. Inde venturus est judicare vivos et mortuos. Credo in Spiritum Sanctum, Sanctam Ecclesiam Catholicam, sanctorum communionem, remissionem peccatorum, carnis resurrectionem, vitam aeternam. Amen.

Blogger Jeff aka Orville March 30, 2018 8:43 AM  

I wonder how this ties into the Fatima visions and the writings of Malachi Martin.

Blogger Laramie Hirsch March 30, 2018 8:46 AM  

@21 Malachi Martin, though he is responsible for my conversion, is a fraud. Sad, because I liked Hostage to the Devil.

http://angelqueen.org/malachi-martin-files/malachi-martins-exorcism-snake-oil/

Blogger Nathan Bissonette March 30, 2018 8:48 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Caffeineforge March 30, 2018 8:50 AM  

Code of conduct shenanigans. This time at the industry/professional level in Oz. I can't imagine all the mischief they're get up to with that clause in a year or two. https://youtu.be/B38-mY4SN4E

Also, this conversation rather changes the nature of the old rhetorical question, 'is the pope Catholic,' doesn't it?

Blogger Vaughan Williams March 30, 2018 8:52 AM  

For those that claim fear of Hell as the foundation of their Faith, I can only ask, what about Love? Shouldn't the foundation of Faith be the Love of God?

Secondly, isn't it fearful enough to experience God's wrath in this life, and not be raised up in the Resurrection?

Is hellfire necessary because people no longer consider God can and does bring judgement in this life, before death?

Blogger James Dixon March 30, 2018 8:54 AM  

> Many New Testament believers believe in "Soul sleep", and do not believe in Hell.

https://www.biblestudytools.com/search/?q=hell&t=kjv&s=Bibles

"Showing 1 - 20 of 54 search results for hell". Many of the results are in the New Testament.

Blogger VFM #7634 March 30, 2018 8:57 AM  

"The things I have heard... hierarchical churches are just 1000x worse. What good is apostolic succession if those the apostles appoints should have been removed from the church or excommunicated ages ago?"

@CM
Indeed. In the case of the Catholic Church, of course, the heretics were diabolically sneaky, and managed to take over when they had enough of a critical mass to elect their own (starting with John XXIII and Paul VI) and call Vatican II to postmodernize the Church.

And then they continued to be sneaky enough to keep the vast majority of Catholics in line. Because MPAI, and liberalism sounds nice.

Now we have in-your-face heresy.

Blogger Dad29 March 30, 2018 8:57 AM  

Another proof that the Jesuits were given to Catholics as a cross to bear. The hard part is the 'grinning' while bearing Pp. Francis.

Blogger James Dixon March 30, 2018 9:01 AM  

> The Church is an institution striving for a divine purpose but operated by humans. There will be mistakes.

Absolutely.

> Correct them and move on.

Ah, there's the rub. You have to admit to a mistake before you can correct it.

> For those that claim fear of Hell as the foundation of their Faith, I can only ask, what about Love? Shouldn't the foundation of Faith be the Love of God?

The foundation of Christianity is the resurrection of Christ. If there is no separation from God, if there is no hell, what purpose did the resurrections serve?

Blogger Vaughan Williams March 30, 2018 9:03 AM  

James Dixon wrote:> Many New Testament believers believe in "Soul sleep", and do not believe in Hell.

https://www.biblestudytools.com/search/?q=hell&t=kjv&s=Bibles

"Showing 1 - 20 of 54 search results for hell". Many of the results are in the New Testament.


Very good. The word "hell" is in the Bible. Now go read those references. Many at theological seminaries have done the study and come to the conclusion of Soul Sleep.

As the prophet Isaiah said, line upon line, precept upon precent. The Bible isn't casual reading, but needs meditation and consideration.

Blogger Anno Ruse March 30, 2018 9:06 AM  

> I also do not think it is a coincidence that the Chinese Tiangong-1 space station--translated as HEAVENLY PALACE--will be crashing to Earth on Easter. My only boggle is what it is a metaphor for. Perhaps it is a typological reminder of The Rebel Lucifer's fall from Heaven, and that worldly men are doomed to have their own secular "heavens" fail.

Maybe it just means that chinks can't build a decent space station. Not everything is a message from God. He's got better things to do than crash a hunk of metal shot into orbit by the Chinee. The idea that God is operating according to your Earthly calendar is laughable. Back off the nonsense and dig deep into doctrines that can convert lost souls like me. I'm crying out for salvation but all I hear back are the mewlings of Churchians or the pontifications of I-saw-the-signs like you.

Blogger Cataline Sergius March 30, 2018 9:06 AM  

"Welcome to my world," says the former Episcopal.

Blogger Vaughan Williams March 30, 2018 9:06 AM  

And then read the Oxford Dictionary entry on Hell; coming from the Viking goddess "Hel", Hell in the Anglo-Saxon languages referred to the cold grave. Look at the underlying Greek and Hebrew words that are translated as "hell", She'ol (Hebrew) and Gehenna. All these facts enter the equation.

Blogger rumpole5 March 30, 2018 9:08 AM  

Re: Catholic vs. Protestant. I agree with VD's admonition. I believe that it was Ben Franklin who said "If we don't hang together we will all hang separately". Catholicism is a center of mass (as in physics) around which most of Christianity rotates. An example of what can happen when that mass gets off center was Vatican II. The excesses begun at that conclave arguably devastated mainline Protestantism much more than they did Catholicism. I hope that this Pope does not represent round 2 of that vicious cycle!

Blogger A rebel without a General March 30, 2018 9:09 AM  

Oh come on vox lets beat on the Catholics while they are down.

Blogger wrf3 March 30, 2018 9:10 AM  

VD wrote: “After all, if there is no Hell and there is no sin, then there was never any need for Jesus Christ to die on the cross.”

That doesn’t follow. No hell does not mean no heaven. Heaven or hell, heaven or nothing, or nothing are all possibilities.

Blogger SemiSpook37 March 30, 2018 9:11 AM  

Well, given the fact that Jorge had his formation through the Society of Jesus, an order that had been rightly suppressed around the time of the American Revolution and then restored 41 years later (in both cases due to POLITICAL influences, both within ecclesial and secular channels), this alleged statement comes as little surprise to those of us paying attention.

I mean, when people cite “Who am I to judge?”, ignore the intentionally ambiguous treatises on the Catholic definitions of Holy Matrimony in Amoris Laetitia, and side with fellow Jesuit and Modernist dissidents like James Martin, it’s pretty clear that we’ve been in a definite crisis for well over the past 50 years.

The ironic thing is that parts of my generation and the younger ones have slowly been discovering the ruptures and reasons as to why the Church is in the current state it is in. And many of them are not happy that they have been lied to for the better part of 50-60 years.

What’s truly disheartening is that the actions of Jorge and his merry band of idiots is that they’re proving men such as Archbishop Lefebvre and Bishop Williamson right, more and more on a daily basis. It never had to get to this point, however.

It appears Papa Sarto (Pope St. Pius X) was right all along: liberalism is the synthesis of all heresies.

Blogger Nate March 30, 2018 9:12 AM  

commie pope is commie

Anonymous Anonymous March 30, 2018 9:13 AM  

The Roman Church has no real mechanism to remove a pope. More likely it will be that after he passes, Francis's successor will convene something to clean up the mess. Probably not as extreme as the Cadaver Synod of putting his rotting corpse on trial and tossing it into the Tiber, but I expect a cleanup of some sort on Aisle 14 after this unfortunate papacy concludes.

Blogger James March 30, 2018 9:13 AM  

Now we know the answer to the question "Is a bear Catholic?"

Blogger seeingsights March 30, 2018 9:14 AM  

Hell is a long standing part of Catholic theology. The previous two Popes reaffirmed it. They also reaffirmed Purgatory, which can be a discussion for another day.
Also, the idea that souls "disappear" goes against Catholic theology. Influenced by Thomson, Long standing Catholic teaching is that humans have an immortal soul.

Blogger seeingsights March 30, 2018 9:15 AM  

Above, I meant Thomism. I guess my vocabulary is larger than spell checker's.

Blogger Nathan Bruno March 30, 2018 9:16 AM  

I'll have to invoke what I learned from a Baptist seminary, and remind you: The psalmists spoke of a pit where the soul would be eternally separated from God and looked toward God providing salvation from it; the great explainer of Hell, Jesus Christ himself, told us of a situation that is understood as the "two rooms" view that the Jews had in Luke 16 (and that the Jews were correct with the two rooms ante-Christ); Jesus Christ himself explains that there will be Hell, there will be fire, and the sinners who are not saved will burn in that fire in the explanation of the Parable of the Weeds in Matthew 13.

If it was simply soul sleep, Paul would not have suggested it was a good thing to hand the sinful man in Corinth to have his body tormented by Satan so as to save his soul; if the choice is nothingness or continuing in the presence of God, that is not what the Bible teaches nor is it how any of the early fathers understood the teaching, once received for all time.

The reason people are offended is not that they're clutching to tradition while Il Papa speaks doctrine; they're offended because Il Papa rejects doctrine from Christ's own mouth.

Blogger Looking Glass March 30, 2018 9:21 AM  

Something I've noticed, in other Christian spaces, is the tendency to assume the people that come in preaching something well outside of normal theology aren't actually Shills. We have Political Shills, but it's become clear to me that theological conflicts in discussion spaces are actually driven by people explicitly there to Shill. Whether paid or volunteer, all of the trouble dealing with the Political ones has made it clear to me that the Religious ones likely predate by quite a bit.


@27 VFM #7634

The RCC has been corrupted for on or about 1100 years, and Catholics have spent a millennia trying to make work an Empire structure that really doesn't. Thus you get the waves of descent, attempts at reform, the reform movement splits the church, then a big upswing in religiosity and orthodoxy. We're at the Descent Phase, still, with only a budding reform movement starting. We can probably expect another schism somewhere in the second half of the 21st Century.

The problem, this time, is that it isn't just standard corruption that's the problem. It's a specifically targeted set of attacks against the core theological principles of the Faith by another religion. All of the Left Political variants are outcroppings of a different religion, and one that works to infect the Christian faith & destroy it. It's going to be a blood bath for the RCC to reform from this wave of corruption.

Blogger Rocklea Marina March 30, 2018 9:25 AM  

"Bad souls “are not punished,” Pope Francis is quoted, “those who do not repent and cannot therefore be forgiven disappear. There is no hell, there is the disappearance of sinful souls.”"

This is the same, exactly the same, as Mao's bad thoughts.

Blogger Looking Glass March 30, 2018 9:27 AM  

@37 SemiSpook37

It is. The "Enlightenment" was always an anti-Christian religious movement, which is why all of its outcroppings are so incredibly murderous. Rather than an "Age of Reason", it really was an ode of "Blood for the Blood god".

Blogger Vaughan Williams March 30, 2018 9:31 AM  

I tried to reply to Jack and some others, but Blogger ate my comment. Will be back later.

Blogger Vaughan Williams March 30, 2018 9:39 AM  

Until I return, this article shows the Hellfire doesn't stand up to Scriptural scrutiny. http://www.christadelphians.com/biblebasics/0409hell.html

Blogger Christopher B March 30, 2018 9:39 AM  

William Vaughn - I think you are confounding the debate over when eternal punishment begins with its existence. The Bible does support both the conclusion that punishment begins immediately upon death and also that God may first raise the dead before pronouncing judgement on all. I do not think any believing Christian doubts that unrepented disobedience to God will result in eternal punishment.
The starting point is, to an individual, irrelevant. That the Pope would claim, even obliquely, this is not true is a major departure from fundamental Christianity.

Blogger TontoBubbaGoldstein March 30, 2018 9:39 AM  

wrf3 wrote:VD wrote: “After all, if there is no Hell and there is no sin, then there was never any need for Jesus Christ to die on the cross.”

That doesn’t follow. No hell does not mean no heaven. Heaven or hell, heaven or nothing, or nothing are all possibilities.


You need to re-read your scriptures, Chief. They clearly state:

No Hell below us
Above us only sky

Blogger James Dixon March 30, 2018 9:42 AM  

> Very good. The word "hell" is in the Bible.

You strongly implied there was no biblical reason to believe in hell. I merely provided a pointer to those who might wish to research the matter.

> Now go read those references.

Why do you assume I haven't?

> Many at theological seminaries have done the study and come to the conclusion of Soul Sleep.

And many have not.

Blogger Laramie Hirsch March 30, 2018 9:44 AM  

@31 "The idea that God is operating according to your Earthly calendar is laughable. Back off the nonsense and dig deep into doctrines that can convert lost souls like me. I'm crying out for salvation but all I hear back are the mewlings of Churchians or the pontifications of I-saw-the-signs like you."

Christianity is based--is legitimized--by prophecy, miracles, and God's miraculous intervention and interaction with us.

This current season, Holy Week and the Eastertide, is all about God operating according to our Earthly calendar. He condescended to enter our world, walk among us, and make Himself understandable. He speaks to mankind in a myriad of ways for different men to understand him. If none of those methods of communication is good enough for you, then it's your ass. You can just melt away into disappearence, as this current failure of a pontiff is spouting off.

"I'm a solid Gamma who knows who he is and has nothing to lose. I'll shit all over this blog in my efforts to get rid of your faggot ass. I've been evading bans since I was 12, you think I can't haunt you? Every post you make on this blog will be met with effluent vitriol.

You are my dog, Nateboy. Best realize it before I smack you across the snout. Now bark for me, bitchbaby, and maybe you'll escape my punishment."


WOW! What a fag.

Blogger dienw March 30, 2018 9:46 AM  

My comment got eaten. The pope's statement is outside the usual prot/cath arguments here: the statement can be considered demonic paganism versus human paganism: I know of know branch of paganism that declares that the wicked soul becomes nothing: in the east there is reincarnation; in the west there is Hell in some form even in the mystery religions. The pope's statement comes straight out of Pandemonium and the devils' denial of their end.

Blogger JaimeInTexas March 30, 2018 9:46 AM  

@2

How do Baptists handle heretics?

Blogger Zaklog the Great March 30, 2018 9:52 AM  

If there is no Hell, then where did this papacy come from?

Blogger Rabbi B March 30, 2018 9:52 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger James Dixon March 30, 2018 9:54 AM  

> Until I return, this article shows the Hellfire doesn't stand up to Scriptural scrutiny.

I believe hellfire as a New Testament principle primarily comes from the references to the "lake of fire" in Revelation. Strangely, Vaughan's link never references Revelation. People may wish to read the relevant sections for themselves: https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Bible-Verses-About-Lake-Of-Fire/

Blogger Rabbi B March 30, 2018 9:54 AM  

@25 Vaughn Williams

For those that claim fear of Hell as the foundation of their Faith, I can only ask, what about Love? Shouldn't the foundation of Faith be the Love of God. Secondly, isn't it fearful enough to experience God's wrath in this life, and not be raised up in the Resurrection? Is hellfire necessary because people no longer consider God can and does bring judgement in this life, before death?
It's not a question of what you or I think. It's a question of what God says in His immutable and perfect Word. You, much like the Sadducees, are in error because you don't know the Scriptures of the power of God.

The Torah, the prophets, and the Greek writings are consistent and consistently clear on the concept of the eternal punishment that awaits the unrepentant in the next world. We may not like this idea or try to come up with specious arguments that try to make this hard teaching more palatable, but it is a truth established by God and revealed to us in His infallible and perfect Word.

Trying to conform the Word of God to our value system or how we think things should be or operate in this world or the next is always a bad idea. His ways are far above our ways and His thoughts much higher than our own. We are to conform our lives and everything we do to the Scriptures, not conform the Scriptures to our logic or how we think things should or should not be. Who do we think we are?

On a similar note, the possibility of eternal punishment in Gehinnom where the fire is not quenched and their worm does not die is not the foundation of the faith ... the foundation of the faith is the resurrection of the promised Messiah of Israel, Who is not dead but has risen. If He is not risen, we are still in our sins, guilty as law breakers, without hope and will be punished as God determines and sees fit.

Remember what the Messiah Himself said to the Sadducees when He reminds them of the time when God spoke to Moses from the burning bush: I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. For He is the God of the living, not the God of the dead. In my opinion, "soul sleep" is just another attempt to water down a very uncomfortable truth The Bible is clear: Some will be raised to everlasting life and others to will be raised to everlasting punishment as vividly described within the pages of His infallible and perfect Word.

Besides, has not God told us a exactly what to do? To choose life? To embrace the Truth that sets us free? If we would simply do as we have all been instructed by Him, what does anyone, anywhere have to be concerned about? My family and I will sit down at the Seder tonight and celebrate the freedom which was only made possible by His outstretched Arm which redeemed us and raised our Messiah from the dead so that we all could live and live as truly free men, for if the Son sets you free you will be free indeed

We owe our freedom to God, not to ourselves. Purge any idea of God from the heart of a man, and you have destroyed his freedom. May we remember to Whom we owe our freedom so that this freedom is preserved in the same way it was acquired. May we be afraid to reject this offer of freedom from that which so easily entangles and eventually results in the worst possible death i

Blogger Vaughan Williams March 30, 2018 9:55 AM  

@dienw you are calling the Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses and Christedelphians demonic pagans. And why? Because they are reading and following the Bible. You are mistaken. The Bible is not pagan, nor are those who follow it.

Blogger JaimeInTexas March 30, 2018 9:55 AM  

@18
Gawker was making money from illicitly getting their hands on materials that were private manners and had no value beyond prurient interests of voyeurs.

As to hell. If Jesus' words are of no value, sure, a case might be made soul sleep.

Blogger Vaughan Williams March 30, 2018 9:57 AM  

@58 James Dixon, the Lake of Fire is discussed in that link I posted, so why do you say it isn't? The Lake of Fire isn't Hell, since Hell itself is thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Blogger Daniel Paul Grech Pereira March 30, 2018 9:58 AM  

Can we even be sure that this "Pope" has read the Bible?

Blogger Emmanuel Mateo-Morales March 30, 2018 9:59 AM  

"And yet, we observe daily the ways in which people are sinful, that evil exists, and that Man needs Jesus Christ."

And that some people are going and NEED to go to hell.

Blogger Vaughan Williams March 30, 2018 9:59 AM  

@61 Jaime, sure Gawker was doing bad things. The irony is that they were slapped down for doing a public service; exposing an act which, under God's Law, merits the death penalty. That is the very deifnition of a matter in the public interest.

Blogger SouthRon March 30, 2018 10:00 AM  

JaimeInTexas: Many churches I've been in practice biblical church discipline, putting heretics and unrepentant sinners who claim to be believers out of the church like the man in Corinthians. I'd like to think it's not exclusive to Baptist churches.

Rabbi B: Thank you.

Gamma: You let your secret king out. Zip up.

Blogger JaimeInTexas March 30, 2018 10:02 AM  

@65
Which laws we live under?

Blogger Avalanche March 30, 2018 10:05 AM  

@40 "Now we know the answer to the question "Is a bear Catholic?""

I think you just maligned bears!

Blogger Vaughan Williams March 30, 2018 10:06 AM  

@59 according to the Saducees, this month is a leap month, and Pesach is next month. May your Seder be a time of blessing and rememberance for your family.

As to the topic of the Lake of Fire, look into it more closely. The wicked will be raised up to eternal disgrace. That is their punishment. Not roasting in fiery flames. Also read the link I posted; it discusses the Hebrew meaning of "olam" or "forever". It doesn't mean forever. But you know that.

Blogger Purge187 March 30, 2018 10:07 AM  

The Catholic Church is the Church of Laodicea, pure and simple.

Blogger Howard Stone March 30, 2018 10:07 AM  

Timing is everything, so it’s no acccident that this is news the week before Easter Sunday.

Blogger dienw March 30, 2018 10:09 AM  

Vaughan Williams wrote:@dienw you are calling the Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses and Christedelphians demonic pagans. And why? Because they are reading and following the Bible. You are mistaken. The Bible is not pagan, nor are those who follow it.

From what circle of Hell did you get the idea that I consider the bible to be pagan?

Blogger Vaughan Williams March 30, 2018 10:09 AM  

Jesus own words: the wages of sin is death. Once dead, why would there be torment in fire-hell?

Blogger Rabbi B March 30, 2018 10:12 AM  

Jesus' own words: But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!

Blogger James March 30, 2018 10:13 AM  

While I have come to take the Book of Revelation with a block of salt thanks to the Scofielders and Lindseyites, I must say that the actions of Francis have given new meaning to the concept of the False Prophet and Antichrist. He is non-believer from the school of I'm-a-tranny-priest-that-is-a-Christian-so-close-your-eyes-and-don't-get-your-panties-in-a-wad-about-evil. Lucifer-is-your-friend!

Blogger Rabbi B March 30, 2018 10:13 AM  

Why would their be torment in fire-hell? Because God said so.

Blogger James Dixon March 30, 2018 10:13 AM  

> ... the Lake of Fire is discussed in that link I posted, so why do you say it isn't?

I didn't say it wasn't. I said Revelation wasn't. You are correct and I was wrong. I apologize for the error. It is mentioned in twice in that one paragraph in the article, once in a link to Revelation and once by name.

Of course Revelation mentions the lake of fire more than just that once. But people can read the links for themselves and draw their own conclusions.

Blogger JaimeInTexas March 30, 2018 10:15 AM  

VW.
I followed your link.

Jesus teaching of Gehenna is straight forward:
A place outside the walls.
A place for trash and refuse and decay.
A place that I dirty.
A place where the only people there are scrounged trying to survive.I
A place that no one would call blessed.

Likewise, there is such a "place" for those who die without Christ.

Is Jesus the Archanel Michael?

Blogger Snidely Whiplash March 30, 2018 10:16 AM  

@Vaughn, yes, we all realuze there are anti- and non-Christian cults, like JWs that deny Christ and his teachings. Your heresy is not the subject. The pope's heresy is the subject.

Blogger dienw March 30, 2018 10:16 AM  

I think I will go with my initial response an off the wall pun: how many magazines would it take to fire 475,838 rounds; would the gun be a semi- or full- automatic; Glock or Ruger? Somebody up there mentioned Thomson. What would the "Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses and Christedelphians " choose?

Blogger James Dixon March 30, 2018 10:17 AM  

> Once dead, why would there be torment in fire-hell?

Why shouldn't there be. For those who reject God, what else can there be but eternal torment, whether in fire or not?

> While I have come to take the Book of Revelation with a block of salt...

I have a great deal of sympathy for that position. It's not the most approachable of texts.

Blogger Vaughan Williams March 30, 2018 10:18 AM  

Rabbi B wrote:Why would their be torment in fire-hell? Because God said so.

Please read the link I posted. If you are using the parable of Lazarus and Dives to defend a fire-Hell, that is pretty weak sauce given its fable-like character.

Blogger bob kek mando - ( I love the smell of Autism on the internet. It smells like ... victoREEEEEEEEE ) March 30, 2018 10:18 AM  

18. Vaughan Williams March 30, 2018 8:42 AM
Hellfire, as traditionally taught in the Churches (Catholic and Protestant), can be well argued to be not Scriptural.


we aren't talking about non-standard theology, we're talking about RCC "infallible" teaching.

which has taught for ~2000 years that Hell and the Eternal Lake of Fire ( two different things ) exist. neither the Catholic nor the Orthodox could make any pretension to "infallibility" nor the "Mysterium of the Church" were they to reject this doctrine.

therefore, your comment is specious and irrelevant.

this also raises a significant question about the Catholic afterlife, in particular:

IF "bad souls" just disappear

THEN the only souls being scourged in Purgatory are "good souls"?

that would appear to violate the Biblical requirement that one of the attributes of God is that He is Just.

how is it that "bad souls" should be permitted to just float off into the ether while those who are "good" might spend thousands of years in Purgatory expunging their earthly sin? how is it that the "good" should suffer more than the "bad", especially in the afterlife?



25. Vaughan Williams March 30, 2018 8:52 AM
For those that claim fear of Hell as the foundation of their Faith, I can only ask, what about Love? Shouldn't the foundation of Faith be the Love of God?


fag.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=proverbs+15%3A33&version=KJV
33 The fear of the Lord is the instruction of wisdom; and before honour is humility.


48. Vaughan Williams March 30, 2018 9:39 AM
Until I return, this article shows the Hellfire doesn't stand up to Scriptural scrutiny.


you really are dumb.

this is what Vox explicitly told you you'd be banned for doing.

Blogger JaimeInTexas March 30, 2018 10:19 AM  

I hate auto-correct.

A place that is dirty.
A place where the only people there are scroungers trying to survive.

Blogger James Dixon March 30, 2018 10:20 AM  

Rats. Still wrong. I didn't search the text for Rev. It turns out there are at least two more references to Revelation passages. The "lake of fire" is only mentioned twice in that one paragraph though.

Anonymous Anonymous March 30, 2018 10:20 AM  

I'm not a "Believer", but even I can smell heresy of THIS magnitude. What is so hard for the Pope and some suspects on this board to understand?

Matthew 13
40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.

Blogger Rabbi B March 30, 2018 10:20 AM  

@82 Vaughan Williams


Please read the link I posted

Please read the Bible.

Blogger dienw March 30, 2018 10:21 AM  

@79 Snidely
I Agree with you. The Devil will cover all the bases; even placing one out in left field just to distract or confuse one doctrinal point.

Blogger Vaughan Williams March 30, 2018 10:22 AM  

@78 so you read up on Gehenna. Good.
Now, where did it speak of eternal torture by fire? It didn't.

Even in Revelation, the closest quote says the "smoke of their torment rises forever". This doesn't imply an ongoing torment; it is the smoke that is ongoing, keeping in mind "forever" means "for the age".

Anonymous Anonymous March 30, 2018 10:23 AM  

I've been wondering about Pope Francis and rhetoric vs. dialectic. I've noticed that Francis and Benedict are at extreme ends of the spectrum. Pope Benedict is as dialectic as you can get without speaking in syllogisms. Serious Catholics love him because they can pick up one of his books and learn. But they're already committed and seeking to learn more. Benedict didn't connect with the majority of lazy Catholics, let alone the rest of the world.

Francis doesn't speak to teach. It's impossible to put what he says from one day to the next together into anything coherent. He speaks pure rhetoric, his words are merely directed at getting the direct audience he's addressing to respond in a certain way. Curiously, Francis may be the first Pope in history who is more popular with non-Catholics than Catholics.


As someone who prefers Benedict, both the man and his communication style, what do I do with Francis? Or more generally, what does the serious Christian who isn't very good at rhetoric do about all the Christians using rhetoric to twist the faith?

Blogger Snidely Whiplash March 30, 2018 10:25 AM  

@Rabbi,
Tendentious reading the Bible looking for support for a particular, emotionally driven conclusion is what people like Vaughn do...

Blogger JaimeInTexas March 30, 2018 10:25 AM  

@73

In dying will die.

The curse is common to all, a couple of exceptions, is physical death.

It is appointed for men to die once, then he judgement.

Blogger Vaughan Williams March 30, 2018 10:28 AM  

@87 I could also tell you to read the Bible, but that wouldn't be helpful. Interested Bible students looked up the relevant scriptures, meditated on them, and recorded their findings. How many hours, days, weeks would it take you to do the same research and consider the matter? I ask you to read the link, not as if it as Gospel, but as a shorthand, so I don't cut and paste it into this comments section. Your comments show some missing knowledge; this venue alone isn't sufficient to supply it.

Blogger JaimeInTexas March 30, 2018 10:29 AM  

@89
I read it for verification. I am familiar with the arguments presented. Nothing new but it is wrong teaching.

I guess Jesus' parables have no basis in reality - licking sores to try to quench an insatiable thirst.

Jesus was such a poet!

Blogger VFM #7634 March 30, 2018 10:30 AM  

"The RCC has been corrupted for on or about 1100 years"

@Looking Glass
Political corruption, sure. After all, that's how the heretics took over in the fifties and sixties in the first place. But the Catholic Church did guard the Catholic Faith, the sacraments, and apostolic succession until the heretics effed with everything under antipope *Paul VI* the queer and the latrocinium Vatican II.

Blogger Brick Hardslab March 30, 2018 10:30 AM  

As always, a post about the church brings out those speaking for the serpent. I sometimes wonder, do they know who is speaking through their mouth?

Do they feel strange or different as they blaspheme and lie?

Studies show an atheists brain and a believer's brain are identical when they blaspheme. Meaning deep down somewhere they know they are doing wrong deep down at the bone and sinew level they still believe. It's only their rationalizations that comfort them.

Blogger Kentucky Packrat March 30, 2018 10:30 AM  

> While I have come to take the Book of Revelation with a block of salt...

That's a dangerous principle. It's OK to not trust human interpretations; that's part and parcel of being a thinking Christian. However, it's not OK to not trust the scripture itself. We may not understand Revelation, but it is scripture.

Vaughan, the term you have been bouncing around is Conditionalism (or conditional immortality). Conditionalists believe that eternal life is a gift given by God after salvation, and that non-believers don't have the promise of eternal life and won't. Myself, I lean towards conditional immortality because Adam and Eve were denied the tree of life, yet the river of life and the tree of life are in the New Jerusalem at the end of Revelation. (There's still a lot of reason to disbelieve conditional immortality, which is why I say "lean". Certainly, there's very little reason for a Catholic Pope to hold the thought.)

There is nothing about Conditionalism however that exclude the Gehenna-style Lake of Fire. The Bible is absolutely clear that the judged will go to a place of fire, where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth. Whether they are consumed until the Second Death extinguishes them, or they are consumed eternally, the traditional Hell is real and will most certainly not be a place to want to be.

It's anti-Christ, and a step towards universalism, to say that the dead unbelievers just disappear.

Blogger JaimeInTexas March 30, 2018 10:31 AM  

VW

Is/was Jesus the Archanel Michael? Yes or no.

Blogger Rabbi B March 30, 2018 10:34 AM  

Your comments show some missing knowledge; this venue alone isn't sufficient to supply it.

Chicken.

Blogger Timmy3 March 30, 2018 10:42 AM  

“Possible deal between Vatican and China alarms many Catholics”

Possible collusion.

Blogger Vaughan Williams March 30, 2018 10:42 AM  

JaimeInTexas wrote:VW

Is/was Jesus the Archanel Michael? Yes or no.


You're trying to determine if I'm a Jehovah's Witness. No, to both your implied and your direct question.

Blogger Vaughan Williams March 30, 2018 10:43 AM  

Rabbi B wrote:Your comments show some missing knowledge; this venue alone isn't sufficient to supply it.

Chicken.


If you want to get into it, we can. After I return tonight.

Blogger James Dixon March 30, 2018 10:45 AM  

> ...keeping in mind "forever" means "for the age".

Hmm. I'd have to check the original to verify that, but I wouldn't automatically make that assumption. In general I've found that arguments that a particular section of scripture doesn't mean what it actually seems to be mean (usually because it is a poor translation) to be misleading at best. There are exceptions that prove the rule (Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect is one of them, for example).

Blogger Looking Glass March 30, 2018 10:45 AM  

@95 VFM #7634

I think you need to take a closer tour through Vatican history. Gaining military power completely screwed up the RCC, everything that's gone wrong, since, can be related back to that.

However, the recent issues are different, and they're from a campaign stretching back to the 1700s to destroy the RCC (and the rest of Christianity as well). The vehicle was corruption in a "bottom-up" approach, which took time, coordination and demonic energy.

Anonymous Anonymous March 30, 2018 10:47 AM  

Jeff aka Orville wrote:So, as a Baptist, I know what we do with heretics. I'm curious about what recourse Catholics have when the Pope goes seriously off the rails. Do the Bishops and Cardinals clean house? Are there enough of them that hold to the traditional teachings to do that?

@2 This is WAAAAY above my pay grade. We, as Catholics, hold there are two types of heresy. Depending on the type, if the Pope is determined to be in that certain type of heresy, he can be removed. I know of it never happening in the Church's history. Having said that, during the Avignon antipapaices, there were men who later became saints some of whom were loyal to antipopes.

Having said that, I have slowly but surely been inching my way towards questioning whether or not Benedict XVI's resignation was valid. If it was invalid, he is still the Pope. If Francis didn't say what was quoted, the Vatican NEEDS to issue a full out denial and Francis, or at least the Secretariat of Communications, NEEDS to say WHAT he said. This is only going to give ammo to atheists and those who have fallen away from the Church. Finally, he needs to stop associating with this atheist journalist. If the journalist made it all up, which I would not be surprised to find out, it's just further evidence of fake news.

Please pray for the soul of whomever the true Pope is and for Francis' and this journalist's souls.

Have a good Good Friday everyone!

Blogger Steve March 30, 2018 10:47 AM  

I'm starting to think Francis has the real pope locked up in a dungeon somewhere with an iron mask on his face.

Blogger John Bradley March 30, 2018 10:48 AM  

Also, this conversation rather changes the nature of the old rhetorical question, 'is the pope Catholic,' doesn't it?

At this point, I'm not even sure that bears sh*t in the woods.

Blogger Robert What? March 30, 2018 10:51 AM  

As I understand it, all human beings go to Hell except for a tiny remnant, the Elect, chosen by God for His own define purposes. As Paul said, we are all deserving of Hell.

Blogger James Dixon March 30, 2018 10:51 AM  

> Your comments show some missing knowledge; this venue alone isn't sufficient to supply it.

The same could reasonably be said of yours. Yes, I'm familiar with your position. I'm also familiar with the reasons why it's not universally (or, to be charitable, even widely) accepted. I have no problem with you holding it, but to your arguments aren't going to convince anyone who knows traditional Roman Catholic or Protestant teachings.

Blogger Vaughan Williams March 30, 2018 10:52 AM  

@103 there is poor translation, there is biased translation, but then there are two more variables: the English language has shifted a lot in the last 400 years, we can think we know what a word means, but it meant something different to an Englishman 400 years ago. And the translators of the King James Bible said that, even in their day, the learned Rabbi's didn't understand 1 word out of 10 in the Hebrew Bible. That is right in the introduction to the King James Bible, where the translators explained what they did, how they did it, and why. When reading Scripture, great caution is needed.

Blogger Robert What? March 30, 2018 10:52 AM  

Make that "devine purposes".

Blogger JaimeInTexas March 30, 2018 10:55 AM  

VW
Yes I was. Thanks for the direct answer. Your arguments and that in the link sure make you sound like one.

Do accept the Trinitarian understanding, as best we can apprehend from the New Testament, as essentially correct?

Blogger Vaughan Williams March 30, 2018 10:56 AM  

@112 I'm not a Christadelphian either. As to the Trinity, that is off-topic for this thread.

Blogger JaimeInTexas March 30, 2018 10:57 AM  

"Is the pope Catholic?"
Now the answer is, it depends on the meaning of the word is.

Blogger Aeoli Pera March 30, 2018 10:58 AM  

Daniel Paul Grech Pereira wrote:Can we even be sure that this "Pope" has read the Bible?

It's a long book. Who's got the time?

Blogger Rabbi B March 30, 2018 10:59 AM  

@102 Vaughan Williams

If you want to get into it, we can. After I return tonight.

You're a daisy if you do.

Blogger JaimeInTexas March 30, 2018 10:59 AM  

VW.
Not asking for a treatease. Just trying to understand who do you say Jesus is.

Blogger Vaughan Williams March 30, 2018 11:00 AM  

James Dixon wrote:I have no problem with you holding it, but to your arguments aren't going to convince anyone who knows traditional Roman Catholic or Protestant teachings.

The greatest source of converts for the Jehovah's Witnesses is the Catholic Church. And the doctrine of Hellfire is one of the big things that precipitates the switch.

Blogger JaimeInTexas March 30, 2018 11:01 AM  

Btw, the nature and work of Jesus is related to the topic.

Blogger Rabbi B March 30, 2018 11:01 AM  

"...the learned Rabbi's didn't understand 1 word out of 10 in the Hebrew Bible."


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ....!

Blogger James March 30, 2018 11:02 AM  

Kentucky Packrat wrote:> While I have come to take the Book of Revelation with a block of salt...

That's a dangerous principle. It's OK to not trust human interpretations; that's part and parcel of being a thinking Christian. However, it's not OK to not trust the scripture itself. We may not understand Revelation, but it is scripture.



Yeah, you’re right. Poor wording on my part. I should have said, “When people start talking about the Book of Revelation, I take their opinions with a block of salt”. Primarily because their opinions will be someone else’s dogma that has been around for centuries. They will be either pre-millennial, post-millennial, a-millennial, or, if they’re honest, “I don’t really know”. I’m convinced that when we finally know what it is, we’ll be, “So that’s what it meant!”

Anonymous Anonymous March 30, 2018 11:02 AM  

Apocalypse looking more likely every day. You look around the world and see stupidity and perversion EVERYWHERE. Soon it will reach critical mass.

Blogger Ceerilan March 30, 2018 11:07 AM  

It's par for the course for reporters to misquote people based on their agenda. Right now the MSM believes it's in their interest to paint Pope Francis as one of their tools. That's a much different thing than him actually being one of their tools.

Reporters (even religion correspondents) are selected specifically for their ignorance of religious matters, rather than being selected in spite of their ignorance. As such, nothing from media sources can be believed.

Blogger James Dixon March 30, 2018 11:17 AM  

> ...the English language has shifted a lot in the last 400 years, we can think we know what a word means, but it meant something different to an Englishman 400 years ago.

Perhaps if you didn't grow up in Appalachia that might be somewhat true. But where I grew up the KJV was considered standard English.

> The greatest source of converts for the Jehovah's Witnesses is the Catholic Church. And the doctrine of Hellfire is one of the big things that precipitates the switch.

There are around 8 million Jehovah's Witnesses worldwide: https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/how-many-jw-members/

There are 1.2 billion Roman Catholics: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-21443313

That's like saying the world's military forces are the greatest source of converts to pacifism. It's probably true, but it doesn't mean anything.

> ...or, if they’re honest, “I don’t really know”. I’m convinced that when we finally know what it is, we’ll be, “So that’s what it meant!”

On that, I have to agree completely.

Blogger Looking Glass March 30, 2018 11:22 AM  

@122 Ceerilan

While I generally agree, the Vatican didn't actually deny he said it. Their argument is that it wasn't a proper quote, so it doesn't mean anything.

Blogger kevmalone March 30, 2018 11:33 AM  

There is no doubt in my mind that Hell will be painful. There will be both physical and, what is worse, mental pain. I've never considered burning by fire to be an absolute necessity, cuts burn, acid burns... (so if there are no flames in my part of Hell, it doesn't mean it isn't Hell)
The mental pain seems more simple: anguish, regret and despair for eternity; far, far worse .
None of these can be experienced during "soul sleep". I consider that a sop.
You may not agree, I don't care.

Two asides related to the comments:
-very pleased to see Rabbi B commenting
-there seems to be a lot of goalpost-moving going on.

Blogger Looking Glass March 30, 2018 11:35 AM  

@125 kevmalone

Topic not about theological differences but about the Pope not being Catholic gets derailed by "new" face in the comments. Of course they're going to move the goalposts, that's why they're here. It's someone shilling.

Blogger VFM #7634 March 30, 2018 11:37 AM  

"The greatest source of converts for the Jehovah's Witnesses is the Catholic Church."

Weird. Could've sworn it was blacks, very few of whom are Catholic.

But it's undeniable that blacks don't believe in hell either considering their behavior, so it's a natural fit.

Blogger Harris March 30, 2018 11:42 AM  

The thing about Hell is that it was never created for mankind. It was created to punish Lucifer and his coterie of fallen angels. Mankind CHOSE Hell when it chose to follow after Satan. God doesn't OWE anyone a path of escape.

The message of Easter is that God, in his mercy and love, offers a path of redemption through the death of Christ on the Cross, and His subsequent Resurrection. But that is a path that must be CHOSEN, just as the path to Hell was a choice.

If you don't believe in this fundamental truth, you CANNOT be called a Christian under the Biblical definition. That doesn't stop the Father of Lies from deceiving those who claim the "Christian" appellation without ever actually having made the choice to trust in Christ for their salvation from Hell. Indeed, those who believe there are multiple paths to God also don't truly believe in the sufficiency AND necessity of the Cross, and the Resurrection. They also cannot truly lay claim to being "Christian."

This is literally the crux of what being a Christian is. It is about Faith in Christ - God's chosen path of redemption for mankind.

Blogger Resident Moron™ March 30, 2018 11:58 AM  

The annihilationist position is not that there is no hell - that’s Franky’s heresy alone.

The annihilationist position is that of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, who said that the soul is destroyed in hell.

Further, the point of banning man from Eden after his fall was that he not be condemned to eternal suffering in sin. The doctrine of eternal suffering in hell would contradict the express will of God.

Blogger Patrick Kelly March 30, 2018 12:00 PM  

Think I'll just hold back my dog from the snipe hunt, pop some corn, and enjoy another fight night.
I luv this blog.

Blogger Amy March 30, 2018 12:02 PM  

So, hell isn’t fiery eternity. Acceptable, for as kevmalone says, the mental anguish is far worse.

Jesus told the story of Lazarus and the rich man. The rich man could not even have a drop to cool his parched mouth, and his suffering was eternal. He could see God, could see Heaven, but couldn’t get there. Ever.

How does the nonexistence of hell mean nonexistence of Heaven? How can you have day without night?

This is not a new philosophical problem, but it upends established theology. The stories of hellfire frightened me to tears as a child, but I now understand hell as eternal separation from the peace of God. Not “soul sleep” or oblivion, but a continuation of the despair I often feel in my waking earthly life. No rest, no shelter.

But, hell, Bergoglio sez no hell exists so I might as well give in to suicide and finally have peace, right? Right?

If hell isnt there to receive unrepentant sinners, then there really isn’t such a thing called sin. Do what you want! Isn’t that the leftist motto anyway? In some ways I can at least give some pagans some credit for their moral compasses and belief in retribution.

As for Catholic converts to JW, wow I am shok that some people want desperately to escape accountability for their actions while maintaining the veneer of Christianity. We should rename the Vatican “Kingdom Hall.”

Blogger Rabbi B March 30, 2018 12:05 PM  

@126 Looking Glass

I don't think it was derailed. The newbie holds the same position as the Pope and has tried to argue it. I also haven't seen anything in the comments that smacks of the Protestant/Catholic debate, bashing, etc. that Vox warned about.

If anything, the newbie has only helped further expose the untenable position of the Pope, and for that we should all be grateful.

Blogger James Dixon March 30, 2018 12:31 PM  

> Indeed, those who believe there are multiple paths to God also don't truly believe in the sufficiency AND necessity of the Cross, and the Resurrection.

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

That seems pretty clear. Without Christ there is no way back to the Father.

That said, what "paths" may be available to those who never hear the message of Christ is unknown to us.

Blogger Aeoli Pera March 30, 2018 12:32 PM  

Take it from a chronic niceguy Rabbi B...you're being too nice.

Blogger Aeoli Pera March 30, 2018 12:43 PM  

Vaughan, would you sate our curiosity by pointing us to your posting career at another website you visit more frequently?

Blogger ghostfromplanetspook March 30, 2018 12:44 PM  

Ratzinger is still the reigning pope whether he wants it or not. This is what you get for trying to change the rules midgame God wont be insulted in His own house.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash March 30, 2018 12:45 PM  

As to the Trinity, that is off-topic for this thread.
You've been tying to make yoyrself and your particular heresy the topic since you got here. How is 'what Vaugh believes about God' any less topical than 'what Vaughn believes abut hell'?

Blogger Dirk Manly March 30, 2018 12:45 PM  

@4
"The traditional method of dealing with a wayward Pope is a muscular monk with a large pillow."

Justice Scalia was a pope? Who knew!?!?!?!

Blogger OneWingedShark March 30, 2018 12:49 PM  

Vaughan Williams wrote:I tried to reply to Jack and some others, but Blogger ate my comment. Will be back later.
I've noticed this happen to me sometimes as well; it seems to happen when the protocol is "HTTPS" (rather than "HTTP") -- also, after posting the protocol seems to change to "HTTPS".

dienw wrote:My comment got eaten.
See above.

Blogger Cynic In Chief March 30, 2018 12:52 PM  

I have long hoped for some sort of reconciliation between the denominations, but considering all the heresy and corruption, each denomination needs a strong cleansing before that can happen. What good is it to unify the Church when the result is a huge corrupt monster preaching lies? Do some considerable soul-searching, cleanse yourself, and then help your brother cleanse himself. Only when all churches are right with Christ will reconciliation and reunification be possible.

Blogger KPP March 30, 2018 12:55 PM  

I don't care at all whether all of these groups that Vaughan agree with each other on "soul sleep." So what? They disagree on far more points even after hours and days and weeks and months and years of "biblical study." I read up on a few of these groups and they all start with certain presuppositions that lead them into this heresy. While I can see how they ended up with this belief, they ended up there because they had flawed suppositions. We see this in other areas with other groups, such as the "God is love and that's why [something clearly condemned in Scripture] is OK. He wouldn't want to be non-self-affirming."

Me? I'm going to stick with the ancient doctrines that can still be defended biblically today. Sure, I know that I have presuppositions too, but at least mine are time-tested.

It strikes me like the recent moves to change the meaning of "fear of God" to a friendlier "respect of God." Yes, God is a loving Father, but "fear of God," though embodying respect, goes far beyond. As the Scriptures say, "It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

Even if I bought into the whole "soul sleep" idea, I wouldn't be so arrogant that I would think I couldn't be wrong. Just as Pascal wagered that following Christ and living a holy life was a good bet, it would make sense to temper the "soul sleep" idea and preach that Hell might be real and you should take that possibility seriously. If you stand before God someday and you're wrong and you were a stumbling block to others, their blood is on your hands. As Jesus said, better a millstone around your neck and all. You'll have a good long time to consider your mistake and contribution to keeping others from feeling the weight of their sin, probably in the very Hell you denied.

Blogger Giraffe March 30, 2018 12:59 PM  

Diversity hire, papal edition?

Blogger bob kek mando - ( I love the smell of Autism on the internet. It smells like ... victoREEEEEEEEE ) March 30, 2018 1:07 PM  

119. Rabbi B March 30, 2018 11:01 AM
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ....!



says the Rabbi who thinks that Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah.

*winks*



132. Rabbi B March 30, 2018 12:05 PM
I also haven't seen anything in the comments that smacks of the Protestant/Catholic debate, bashing, etc. that Vox warned about.


while non-standard, annihilationism ( circa 300ad ) and Soul Sleep are long standing Protestant / schismatic theological positions.

ie - a critique of the Orthodox, Oriental and Catholic churches.

VD
That being said, don't even think about trying to divert this into Protestant vs Catholic, Round 475,838. Any commenter who attempts to do so will be summarily spammed.



the question of whether or not the soul ceases at death, is consumed and destroyed in the Lake of Fire or continues on in immortal torment is wholly irrelevant.

the QUESTION is whether or not the position ( supposedly ) espoused by Francis conforms to 2000 years of Catholic doctrine or whether he has promulgated what is Heresy to a Catholic.


i know that Vaughan is lying, and that he has been lying since his first post.

18. Vaughan Williams March 30, 2018 8:42 AM
Hellfire, as traditionally taught in the Churches (Catholic and Protestant), can be well argued to be not Scriptural.



he can argue, honestly, that Scripture has been misinterpreted. that's how we've got 6 gorillion denominations. 6 gorillion and 3 if you count the Jews ( who don't accept any New Revelations ) and Muslims and Mormons ( who both claim to have their own novel Revelations ).

it's a bald faced Lie to assert that it's "not Scriptural".

Blogger SirHamster March 30, 2018 1:11 PM  

Vaughan Williams wrote:@61 Jaime, sure Gawker was doing bad things. The irony is that they were slapped down for doing a public service; exposing an act which, under God's Law, merits the death penalty. That is the very deifnition of a matter in the public interest.

This is a lie.

Wiki (sorry, IG blurb was less specific)
"On October 4, 2012, Gawker editor A.J. Daulerio published a two-minute extract from the 30-minute video, including 10 seconds of explicit sexual activity."

That's pornography and gossip, not "public service".

Blogger Wynn Lloyd March 30, 2018 1:16 PM  

How many Neo-Catholics will rethink things? I hope a good number do. This can't be easily explained away.
I'm guessing people are being banned left and right on Catholic Answers right now.

Blogger Wynn Lloyd March 30, 2018 1:23 PM  

Damn.
That's a burn, right there.

Anonymous Anonymous March 30, 2018 1:24 PM  

" it were better for him if that man had never been born"

Indeed. This is why it's hard to argue to have children as a Christan (the Orthodox, in my opinion, have turned Christianity into some kind of Judaism). E.g., Nietzsche's father was a Lutheran pastor, Nietzsche became an atheist. German poet Gottfried Benn was a nihilist, his father was a Protestant pastor. The great Jacob Burckhardt was an atheist (classical liberal), but his father was a pastor.

This is also why the Bible nowhere teaches that life is a gift (this is paganism, as Kierkegaard knew who was also aware of the whole dilemma), but that the Holy Ghost and God's grace is a gift. After all, a gift requires someone who receives it, and life can't be received. The Holy Ghost, on the other hand, can be received. This is a pretty traditional position though, as even cardinal Martini, in his exchange with Umberto Eco, held it. For the Christian, not the physical nor the psychic life are the highest values (bios and psyche), but the Godly life (zoe). Martini then turns to John 12,25 etc.

In fact, the worst thing that ever happened to someone in hell is birth, as Christ clearly teaches in that verse. Now why Gómez Dávila, who wrote, in one of his 10.000 aphorisms, that our last hope lies in God's injustice, had three children only God knows (his wife was said to have been a beauty, maybe he was just tantalized).

Before a koanic or so writes: I'm not arguing against marriage, I just can't think of someone who becomes a Christian and then thinks to himself: Boy, I needa get married. In my case, quite the opposite happened.

My own understanding of Christianity is that the gate is narrow and the Christian has to suffer in this world.

Blogger bob kek mando - ( I love the smell of Autism on the internet. It smells like ... victoREEEEEEEEE ) March 30, 2018 1:26 PM  

not to mention which, i don't know that any of the three parties even purport to be Christian or Hebrew. i know Bubba is an atheist and i can't imagine his stripper wife purports to be one. further, Bubba purposely entrapped Hogan into the situation. and then sold the video for profit. to Gawker.

this does nothing to excuse Hogan's religious crime.

but neither does it do anything to excuse the civil crimes of Gawker and Bubba.


in any case, OT Law would only be applicable to one following the old Hebrew faith. not even modern Jewry practices the execution of Adulterers.

so, that's his second definite Lie, pretending that any consideration should be given to the OT punishments when he knows full well that Gawker and Bubba are also fully guilty of what they were convicted of.

Blogger Eze Garcés March 30, 2018 1:33 PM  

Argentina it's the whitest country in LatAm.

Blogger Eze Garcés March 30, 2018 1:39 PM  

God can use even a donkey...

Blogger James Dixon March 30, 2018 1:53 PM  

> ...it's a bald faced Lie to assert that it's "not Scriptural".

I think the appropriate question is whether it's a knowing lie or a misinformed lie. I can't see into the hearts of men, but it seemed prudent to post my links.

Blogger Chiva March 30, 2018 1:55 PM  

"the question of whether or not the soul ceases at death, is consumed and destroyed in the Lake of Fire or continues on in immortal torment is wholly irrelevant."

I agree. The second death should hold no fear for those saved by Jesus Christ.

The Bible does spell out three individuals who WILL endure eternal torment in the Lake of Fire.
Revelation 20:10

Blogger VFM #7634 March 30, 2018 1:57 PM  

Diversity hire, papal edition?

@142 Giraffe
He's actually 100% Italian.

Frankie is a prime example of a Catholic identity being divorced from the Catholic Faith since Vatican II. He has a Catholic identity, but not the Faith.

Blogger The Kurgan March 30, 2018 2:13 PM  

Test

Blogger Rabbi B March 30, 2018 2:13 PM  

"the question of whether or not the soul ceases at death, is consumed and destroyed in the Lake of Fire or continues on in immortal torment is wholly irrelevant."

Yes and no. My main point of contention is that it's difficult for me to stand idly by while the Scriptures are being maligned and twisted to suit the whims and proclivities of people who think they're smarter than the Master of the universe.

I also don't think God has made the Scriptures in general and the overall message of what God requires of man inaccessible or beyond are grasp. (cf. Deuteronomy 30)

But, alas, carelessness abounds in our age more than ever and the truth is a hard sell.

"...and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things,in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.(cf. II Peter 3)

The prophet Isaiah was right ...

For the Lord has poured out on you the spirit of deep sleep, and has closed your eyes, namely, the prophets; and He has covered your heads, namely, the seers.
The whole vision has become to you like the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one who is literate, saying, “Read this, please.”


And he says, “I cannot, for it is sealed.” Then the book is delivered to one who is illiterate, saying, “Read this, please.” And he says, “I am not literate.”(cf. Isaiah 29)

Blogger bob kek mando - ( I love the smell of Autism on the internet. It smells like ... victoREEEEEEEEE ) March 30, 2018 2:13 PM  

150. James Dixon March 30, 2018 1:53 PM
I think the appropriate question is whether it's a knowing lie or a misinformed lie.



he knows full well that contrary denominations cite Scripture in the defense of their positions. he's already demonstrated that.

if your position is that he's too stupid to speak English, i'm not going to argue that. the question then is, why are you bothering to talk to him at all?

but there is NO "Christian" path to exculpating Bubba and Gawker ( a bunch of atheists ) for the crimes they committed.

seriously, have you ever met a single Christian previously who bemoaned the fact that Gawker's Atheism, malfeasance and corruption finally got brought down by their own stupidity?

and this clown claims that they were "exposing an act which, under God's Law". given the outcome, mustn't significant weight be given to the idea that Hulk Hogan was God's judgment upon Gawker?

further, i eagerly await Vaughan's citations of the number of Adulterers he has personally put to death honoring "God's Law".

otherwise, he admits that he himself is failing to honor "God's Law" and is in transgression against it.



Blogger bob kek mando - ( I love the smell of Autism on the internet. It smells like ... victoREEEEEEEEE ) March 30, 2018 2:20 PM  

154. Rabbi B March 30, 2018 2:13 PM
it's difficult for me to stand idly by while the Scriptures are being maligned and twisted to suit the whims and proclivities of people who think they're smarter than the Master of the universe.


i understand. i sperg out once in a while myself. witness this thread.

the fact remains that Vox specifically warned against turning this thread into a pro / con debate about whether or not the RCC is actually correct on any particular doctrinal issue.

and that is exactly what Vaughan is doing.

the fact that he happens to be attacking the majority of the rest of the Christian denominations at the same time doesn't obviate that.

Blogger James Dixon March 30, 2018 2:21 PM  

> the question then is, why are you bothering to talk to him at all?

bob, you should know me well enough by now to know that my replies aren't actually directed at him. Lots of people read here and don't post. I wouldn't want them to be misinformed. I''m a poor vessel for passing on the truth, but I do so when I can.

Blogger The Kurgan March 30, 2018 2:28 PM  

Hahahhahaha

https://mundabor.wordpress.com/2018/03/30/newsflash-francis-even-more-stupid-than-everyone-thought/

Blogger The Kurgan March 30, 2018 2:34 PM  

At this point, as a Catholic, I fervently hope that a tac nuke by Islamists takes out the entire Vatican, which is currently filled with pederasts and homosexual orgies fuelled by cocaine and rent boys.

Catholic canon law clearly states a heretic vacates his office without any official notice required.
And on that basis, there has been no valid Pope since 1958. Only heretic impostors.

Blogger The Kurgan March 30, 2018 2:40 PM  

No. That is wrong. Canon 188.4 (PB1917) means no pope since October 9th has been valid. Because they ALL were involved in V2 which is a clear heresy against catholic dogma.

Blogger NoneOfTheAbove March 30, 2018 2:41 PM  

I've got the meme for you.

https://gab.ai/rogerlocke/posts/22776646

John Bradley wrote:Also, this conversation rather changes the nature of the old rhetorical question, 'is the pope Catholic,' doesn't it?

At this point, I'm not even sure that bears sh*t in the woods.

Blogger The Kurgan March 30, 2018 2:42 PM  

The cardinals are just as corrupt and bent

Blogger The Kurgan March 30, 2018 2:42 PM  

Indeed

Blogger Damn Crackers March 30, 2018 3:05 PM  

If there is no Hell, there is no Harrowing of Hell. Then, all souls born before Christ or never hearing of Christ are destined to non-existence.

Blogger bob kek mando - ( I love the smell of Autism on the internet. It smells like ... victoREEEEEEEEE ) March 30, 2018 3:07 PM  

the fact remains that there are very few options here:

1 - Scalfari is not a "friend" of the Pope and may have fabricated everything out of whole cloth

2 - Scalfari *is* a friend of the Pope, but has grossly miss-represented some off hand comment of Francis

3 - Scalfari is a friend of Francis and is accurately relating the Pope's personal doctrinal position

in the case of options 1 or 2, what should the Pope's response be? forget official Vatican statements. those are wholly irrelevant.

IF Scalfari is not a "friend" of the Pope, THEN Francis should denounce him out of hand as a fraud and a liar

IF Scalfari is misrepresenting the Pope's words
THEN the Pope should point out his error and ask for a retraction and apology

IF option 3 is correct?
THEN the Vatican spokespeople will be left scrambling trying to concoct excuses as to why this story ever came out.

the Pope's very silence speaks deafeningly.

Blogger JaimeInTexas March 30, 2018 3:30 PM  

Well, speak for y'all selves. I am here to correct people.

I say this while laughing and ducking ...

In all seriousness, it helps me go back and refresh my memory. It is good exercise.

Blogger JaimeInTexas March 30, 2018 3:32 PM  

I used to look at denominations as bad but I see more like, better to live as neighbors than be at each other throats living in the same house.

Blogger JaimeInTexas March 30, 2018 3:42 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger JaimeInTexas March 30, 2018 3:42 PM  

@158
Do not knock the donkey. A donkey warned a prophet and another carried the Ch

Blogger KPP March 30, 2018 3:44 PM  

I used to look at denominations as bad but I see more like, better to live as neighbors than be at each other throats living in the same house.

I agree. When I consider the limits of my own knowledge and the way my own understanding of history and God's word has developed, I am confident that when we get to Heaven, we're all going to have a good laugh over how obvious the areas we were wrong about were in retrospect.

Leave room for living at peace with all as far as it depends on you.

Except for the Judean People's Front. Screw them.

Blogger Geoarrge March 30, 2018 3:45 PM  

Rather than try to advocate SDA theology here, I'll mention that my local church had an incident about 25 years ago where a few members were disfellowshipped for something rather similar to what Frankie seems to be saying. This has less to do with whether hell exists according to any particular denomination's understanding, but whether God is just too nice to actually execute His judgement on the wicked Himself.

Our ex-members' version was "God is love, love doesn't kill, therefore the lake of fire must really be everyone spontaneously combusting from their own sins, and God isn't really personally involved in any of it." Technically, they were removed for refusing to stop distributing their literature on church property.

Blogger James Dixon March 30, 2018 4:08 PM  

> Technically, they were removed for refusing to stop distributing their literature on church property.

That is the important point isn't it? No one cares if you disagree with minor points of church doctrine as long as you don't go making an issue of it.

Blogger James Dixon March 30, 2018 4:11 PM  

> the Pope's very silence speaks deafeningly.

Indeed it does. I wonder if he's blind to the firestorm he's started.

Anonymous Anonymous March 30, 2018 4:44 PM  

"That being said, don't even think about trying to divert this into Protestant vs Catholic, Round 475,838. Any commenter who attempts to do so will be summarily spammed."

I didn't even want to until there was a law against it.

Blogger Robert What? March 30, 2018 5:03 PM  

@Anonymous

"This is why it's hard to argue to have children as a Christan"

Yes, this has always been a mystery to me. Whether you are a Calvinist - who believes only a small remnant (the "Elect") will be saved. Or whether you leave salvation up to random human choice. How can a Christian justify having children since they will more likely than not wind up in Hell.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash March 30, 2018 5:06 PM  

Robert What? wrote:How can a Christian justify having children since they will more likely than not wind up in Hell.
Couple of morons pretending that Nihilism is Christian.
"Be fruitful and multiply."
"Be not afraid."

Blogger Azure Amaranthine March 30, 2018 5:09 PM  

"The idea that God is operating according to your Earthly calendar is laughable."

The idea that the Earthly calendar is unaffected by God is quite a bit more laughable.

"you are calling the Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses and Christedelphians demonic pagans. And why? Because they are reading and following the Bible."

You lie. He's calling them that because they are, and what they are has nothing to do with the Bible except that it has not yet fallen on them and crushed them.

"God can use even a donkey..."

Even the rocks.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine March 30, 2018 5:15 PM  

"How can a Christian justify having children since they will more likely than not wind up in Hell."

How can you justify not creating more children that could wind up in Heaven?

Their choice is theirs, not yours. Your choice, however, in not serving life while you reasonably could have, that one's definitely on you as a sin.

Blogger Robert What? March 30, 2018 5:23 PM  

@178 (Azure Amaranthine)

I don't want my salvation to be based on something as random as "my choice". When do I choose it? What if I wasn't exposed to it? That is why Calvinism has always seemed to make more logical sense to me. God decides who is saved and who is not. Sort of like Deterministic Salvation versus Quantum Salvation.(Disclaimer - I do not believe I am one of the Elect.)

Anonymous Anonymous March 30, 2018 5:28 PM  

When I studied annihilationism in seminary, I came across several of them who pointed out that the Hebrew 'olam meant "length of days" (i.e. an indefinitely long time. In the Mishnaic period the definition had shifted to mean "world."*) and the Greek aeon meant "age" (also an indefinitely long time). They then concluded that Hell could not be forever because that's not what those words mean.

However, none of them ever said what words in Greek or Hebrew would express the concept of forever besides aeon and 'olam? So I ask that, what were they? (And yes, I have several Hebrew and Greek lexicons with which I plan to verify any responses.)

* I found that out during class in Hebrew 3. I translated a piece of Mishnah Avot using 'olam as "on these three things eternity rests." Dr. N said, "Oops! Lingual shift got you! In this time, 'olam meant 'world'!"

Blogger Snidely Whiplash March 30, 2018 5:33 PM  

Robert What? wrote:(Disclaimer - I do not believe I am one of the Elect.)
A convenient excuse for a very lazy soul.

Anonymous Anonymous March 30, 2018 5:35 PM  

@123

"Perhaps if you didn't grow up in Appalachia that might be somewhat true. But where I grew up the KJV was considered standard English."

You do that bigot thing real well. I bet 6th grade was the best four years of your life.

Blogger andy smith March 30, 2018 5:42 PM  

The pope is only half right. The evil souls do not disappear. They suffer in their self-imposed isolation from God's forgiveness outside of heaven until God can finally break through and heal them. This is the doctrine of the apokatastasis (restoration of all things) and it was widely believed in the early church prior to Augustine. In fact, Augustine believed it at first. In modern times it goes by the name Universal Reconciliation which should not be confused with Universalism. Under the doctrine of Universal Reconcilation, we believe that there is no salvation apart from Jesus and that his saving work is complete and really does save "all" (Eph. 1). For further reading, see Thomas Allin's Christ Triumphant. For the deep dive into the writings of the early church fathers on the subject, see Ramelli's The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis.

Blogger SirHamster March 30, 2018 5:49 PM  

Snidely Whiplash wrote:Robert What? wrote:How can a Christian justify having children since they will more likely than not wind up in Hell.

Couple of morons pretending that Nihilism is Christian.

"Be fruitful and multiply."

"Be not afraid."


"By their fruits you will know them"

If the fruit of your loins are probably going to Hell, that says a lot about what *you* are.


Robert What? wrote:(Disclaimer - I do not believe I am one of the Elect.)

The dead have no business telling those Alive in Christ how to live.

Repent of your unbelief and believe in Jesus.
Even you can raise from the dead.

Blogger Aeoli Pera March 30, 2018 5:51 PM  

Snidely Whiplash wrote:Robert What? wrote:How can a Christian justify having children since they will more likely than not wind up in Hell.

Couple of morons pretending that Nihilism is Christian.

"Be fruitful and multiply."

"Be not afraid."


Don't be mean, a lot of modern Christians wonder about this and we should give them sound reasons.

Blogger Aeoli Pera March 30, 2018 5:57 PM  

What I mean is...the argument for having children is a bit involved for people who grow up with the assumption that minimizing suffering is a priori good.

Robert, I don't particularly like this article but it's a good start: https://www.gotquestions.org/should-I-have-children.html

Blogger Aeoli Pera March 30, 2018 5:58 PM  

Here, this one is good: https://carm.org/does-the-bible-require-all-christians-to-get-married-and-have-children

Blogger JaimeInTexas March 30, 2018 6:11 PM  

@187
Better than saying all Christians must be celibate.

Blogger Eric I. Gatera. March 30, 2018 6:13 PM  

I knew something was fishy with this story of the Pope denying his own Catholic tradition:

The Catholic News Agency said it was not the first time Scalfari has misrepresented the pope’s words following a private audience.

In November 2013, the journalist admitted that at least some of the words he had published a month prior that stirred controversy “were not shared by the Pope himself.”

Scalfari has said that all his interviews have been conducted without a recording device and without taking notes while the person is speaking, CNA reported.

“I try to understand the person I am interviewing, and after that I write his answers with my own words,” Scalfari explained to reporters in November 2013.

He conceded it was possible that “some of the pope’s words I reported, were not shared by Pope Francis.”

CNA noted Francis has previously spoken about the existence of hell in public speeches. At a prayer vigil in March 2014, for example, he said that members of the mafia should change their lives “while there is still time, so that you do not end up in hell. That is what awaits you if you continue on this path.”


Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2018/03/vatican-denies-pope-said-hell-doesnt-exist/#dd60jSYkm1tiWEtX.99

Blogger Snidely Whiplash March 30, 2018 6:53 PM  

If the fruit of your loins are probably going to Hell, that says a lot about what *you* are.

No, it really doesn't. At least to people who have any experience of actual humans.

Suffering is not bad. The world was redeemed through suffering.

Blogger Lovekraft March 30, 2018 7:09 PM  

@189: yours and Mr Mando's comment counsel patience and skepticism until more facts come out. I wouldn't put it past an audience being forced on the Pope. I am of the position that Obama and his directors pressured Pope Francis in ways we aren't privy to regarding opening Europe to the Muslim horde.

We plebes can only speculate as to which pressures and insight occur at these high levels. Who's to say the Pope and his counsellors haven't access to many secrets (i.e hiddenn alliances, financial details, past 'patterns' etc). If we focus on the immediate, we react and it affects our balance. But understanding there are many hidden expressions of love and mercy that we are unaware of, things seem a lot better.

A long time ago, I came up with a concept with may blow a few fuses on this blog. When we die, our minds have a type of 'tally' or even a biological record. If we lived a good life, we are returned to the earth and accepted. If our mind/ego/conscience is fraught with enmity, guilt etc, then the earth will be a pit in which we suffer. Yes, heretical on its face and I do not argue against Scripture. Just trying to broaden the concept of living a good life that may attract many who have rejected the Word.

Blogger SirHamster March 30, 2018 7:10 PM  

Snidely Whiplash wrote:If the fruit of your loins are probably going to Hell, that says a lot about what *you* are.

No, it really doesn't. At least to people who have any experience of actual humans.


Children are a type of fruit. Can we judge by the fruit or not?

If a Christian expects his unborn offspring to be damned and better off non-existent, damned fruit is something that can be judged.

I'm not saying that Christians need to maximize children. There's a conflict between this particular belief and a Christian's nature.

Though it's more likely to be a false belief than an actual damned nature.

Blogger Avalanche March 30, 2018 7:10 PM  

Cool meme; bad pope!

https://www.reddit.com/r/greatawakening/comments/88c13w/meme_heres_another_great_one_for_you_guys/

Blogger VFM #7634 March 30, 2018 7:12 PM  

Indeed it does. I wonder if he's blind to the firestorm he's started.

@173 James Dixon
Hardly. Plausible deniability is the bread and butter of these heretics in Catholics' clothing. Otherwise, most Catholics would have rejected them long ago... even with the MPAI principle.

This is by far the closest they've come to slipping their mask off.

Blogger Avalanche March 30, 2018 7:27 PM  

@109 "the English language has shifted a lot in the last 400 years, we can think we know what a word means, but it meant something different to an Englishman 400 years ago. And the translators of the King James Bible said that, even in their day, the learned Rabbi's didn't understand 1 word out of 10 in the Hebrew Bible. That is right in the introduction to the King James Bible, where the translators explained what they did, how they did it, and why. When reading Scripture, great caution is needed."

Interesting tidbit from Jordan Peterson: he's discussing his ... uncertainty ... over the phrase "the meek shall inherit the earth." He researched, and at the time it was written, to be "meek" meant (approximately) "to have and be skilled with a sword,but chose to keep it sheathed!"

Also, from an interesting book ("Insights for the Age of Aquariusby Gina Cerminara); (and of course I'm paraphrasing, having not read it for a couple decades.) Hebrew is written sans vowels. The translators reached the spot where Elijah is living out in the wilderness and translated the text to be "was brought food by crows."

Now, the guys doing the translating had to decide between making the word be Orebim or Orabim -- and I don't remember which was which -- but ONE meant "the folks from the nearby town call Or_b" and the OTHER meant 'fed by crows'... They chose the more ... mystical ... one.

Blogger Robert What? March 30, 2018 7:32 PM  

@SirHamster,

"Repent of your unbelief and believe in Jesus."

Not sure what I said that makes you think I don't believe in Jesus. I most certainly do. I am just struggling with the whole conundrum of: am I saved (or condemned) because of my choice, or because of God's will?

Blogger Robert What? March 30, 2018 7:42 PM  

@Snidely Whiplash,

"Couple of morons pretending that Nihilism is Christian."

I won't deny being a moron. But a nihilist, no.

Blogger bob kek mando - ( I love the smell of Autism on the internet. It smells like ... victoREEEEEEEEE ) March 30, 2018 7:44 PM  

189. Eric I. Gatera. March 30, 2018 6:13 PM
The Catholic News Agency said it was not the first time Scalfari has misrepresented the pope’s words following a private audience.



nor is this the first time that the Pope has failed to hold him to account for "spreading lies" about what Francis said.

yet, Francis continues to meet with and talk to him, without ever once making any public disavowals of his own.

FRANCIS CONTINUES TO MEET WITH HIM.

now, which is more likely?

that Francis continues to meet with a 'friend' who constantly lies about him?

or that the Vatican is lying about these disavowals of the Pope's private statements?

put another way, why do the Vatican guards continue to allow Scarfali access?

Blogger James Dixon March 30, 2018 8:07 PM  

> You do that bigot thing real well. I bet 6th grade was the best four years of your life.

I'm sorry you're not one of the chosen few. We do realize it's not your fault and try not to hold it against you.

> I am just struggling with the whole conundrum of: am I saved (or condemned) because of my choice, or because of God's will?

There is no real conflict between the two. God knows how you're going to choose and plans for it. What's the effective difference between that and his willing your choice? There's a big theological difference, but in actual practice the two work out identically.

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