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Sunday, March 18, 2018

No spirit of liberty

Peter Hitchens laments the fifth straight mindless rush to war on false pretenses by the British government and media:
Is THIS a warning? In the past few days I have begun to sense a dangerous and dark new intolerance in the air, which I have never experienced before. An unbidden instinct tells me to be careful what I say or write, in case it ends badly for me. How badly? That is the trouble. I am genuinely unsure.

I have been to many countries where free speech is dangerous. But I have always assumed that there was no real risk here.

Now, several nasty trends have come together. The treatment of Jeremy Corbyn, both by politicians and many in the media, for doing what he is paid for and leading the Opposition, seems to me to be downright shocking.

I disagree with Mr Corbyn about many things and actively loathe the way he has sucked up to Sinn Fein. But he has a better record on foreign policy than almost anyone in Parliament. Above all, when so many MPs scuttled obediently into the lobbies to vote for the Iraq War, he held his ground against it and was vindicated.

Mr Corbyn has earned the right to be listened to, and those who now try to smear him are not just doing something morally wrong. They are hurting the country. Look at our repeated rushes into foolish conflict in Iraq, Libya, Syria and Afghanistan. All have done us lasting damage.

Everyone I meet now thinks they were against the Iraq War (I know most of them weren’t, but never mind). So that’s over. But Libya remains an unacknowledged disgrace. David Cameron has not suffered for it, and those who cheered it on have yet to admit they were mistaken....

I sense an even deeper and more thoughtless frenzy over Russia, a country many seem to enjoy loathing because they know so little about it.

I have already been accused, on a public stage, of justifying Moscow’s crime in Salisbury. This false charge was the penalty I paid for trying to explain the historical and political background to these events. I wonder if the bitterness also has something to do with the extraordinarily deep division over the EU, which has made opponents into enemies in a way not seen since the Suez Crisis.

In any case, the crude accusation, with its implication of treachery, frightened me. I expect, as time goes by, I will be accused of being an ‘appeaser’ and of being against ‘British values’. And then what? An apparatus of thought policing is already in place in this country. By foolishly accepting bans on Muslim ‘extremists’, we have licensed public bodies to decide that other views, too, are ‘extremist’.
Britain desperately needs a Brexit party that will pursue British First policies rather than obediently falling into line with the neocons, who play the same role in the Conservative Party and Nu Labour wing that they do in the Republican Party and Clinton Democrat wing.

The remarkable thing about both Britain and the USA is the way so many of their citizens are willing to take arms, fight, and die in wars against neutrals of no interest to their nations while never raising a voice, let alone a finger, against the Invade the World, Invite the World internal enemies who are, at the very least, threatening the survival of both nations through immigration and war.

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77 Comments:

Blogger SteelPalm March 18, 2018 6:38 AM  

Ironically, Hitchens is advocating an Invite the World mentality in that quote with

By foolishly accepting bans on Muslim ‘extremists’, we have licensed public bodies to decide that other views, too, are ‘extremist’.

(Nevermind that he is also defending Corbyn in that quote, whose desire to Invite the World exceeds even that of May)

Anywho, the actions of May seem like foolish, desperate posturing. And while she is both dumb and treacherous, I'm overwhelmingly certain that she has no desire to go to war.

This will end up as yet another humiliation for a self-righteous Western European globalist government, and another triumph for Putin.

Blogger The Kurgan March 18, 2018 6:52 AM  

It has been my observation that the Nordic races of Europe (Anglo-Saxons, Teutonics, Etc) tend, as group, much more towards groupthink than the Southern Europeans (Italians, Greeks, Spaniards etc.) I tentatively put this down to the latter civilisations being historically older and hence more developed from an intellectual perspective. Even if the actual education level has dropped off in recent decades, it was, prior to that, historically of higher quality.

And over the centuries I think that percolation has become embedded in DNA to some extent: don’t trust any leaders beyond what you can observably see with your own eyes.

Blogger MOTW March 18, 2018 6:52 AM  

SteelPalm,

You have to read the full Hitchens' quote, because right below what you quoted, he says the following:

"Because the authorities are terrified of upsetting Islam, nothing much will happen to Muslim militants. But conservative and Christian views such as mine will suffer."

That is why, in part, he is against the bans, because he knows they will be used against Christians, but not the Muslims they were intended to be used against.

All the best.

Blogger wreckage March 18, 2018 7:04 AM  

The population is under stress, restive, and angry. The government needs a war to blow off that anger "safely".... for the government. It needs an enemy far away to divert from the fact that the UK government is actively against its own people's interests.

Anonymous Anonymous March 18, 2018 7:04 AM  

> I have been to many countries where free speech is dangerous. But I have always assumed that there was no real risk here

Funny.
Country (England) with laws against so called "hate speech", has no free speech at all. Hitchens do not know this?
"cura te ipsum"

But do not worry too much about May. Her intention in this new collusion wish Russia is of course not war (it will be too crazy), but probably just to seize some assets of Russian oligarch in Britain.

Blogger SteelPalm March 18, 2018 7:09 AM  

@3 So you're arguing he's a cuck who thinks all religions should be treated the same and equally welcome into Britain? And is desperately playing defense against the globalists instead of working to make the government of Britain right-wing and Christian? How is that any better?

At a certain point, there isn't much difference between the cuck and SJW/globalist, as they ended up supporting the same things (in this case foreign invasion), whatever their reasons.

Blogger JACIII March 18, 2018 7:13 AM  

At this point the best thing for the survival of the English people would be for Putin to vaporize London. The skinnies would run back home and the Englidh would be free of their traitor government.

Teresa May might save Britain after all....

Blogger Phillip George March 18, 2018 7:17 AM  

"We came, we saw, he died."

Hillary Rodham Churchill Clinton.

Who can stand in the path of progress? Libya can now rebuild on the very ashes of Christopher Stevens the transgender toilets Libyans always aspired to have.

It's the Arab Spring and Here we are at the very Steppes of Russ and Spring Time Again. Who doesn't love the smell of WMD stories in springtime? GAS ATTACK LONDON CARNAGE

Blogger Tank March 18, 2018 7:27 AM  

Invade the World, Invite the World

A philosophy to die for.

/sarc

Blogger Jonathon Davies March 18, 2018 7:31 AM  

It's been absolute craziness on the MSM for days. However, there is a significant minority that either believe that it wasn't Russia, or that the government has acted in haste.

It is absolute insanity the day after the Parsons Green bomber was jailed, and details emerged that he was on the government's deradicalization program (which clearly worked) and that he was given everything in the UK. He was doing well at school (one presumes in chemistry) and no one could find a reason why he turned on the UK. This should be the real focus of government attention. It won't be as they would have to talk about Islam which is verbotten.

There is a free speech event at Speakers Corner today with Tommy Robinson delivering Martin's speech after he got banned from the UK, talking about immigration and the great replacement. No doubt the establishment will try to cover it up, as they are doing with Telford grooming gangs.

Blogger Uncle John's Band March 18, 2018 7:37 AM  

The transparency is so appalling. It is often mentioned how the internet would have altered the lead up to Iraq (and various other fake casus belli), but it is still enlightening to see how an utter non-event (even if it was a botched Russian hit, which it wasn't) magically becomes a need to attack a nuclear superpower.

The evil becomes palpable with the possibility that the "hit" doubled as an attempt to clean up the Steele mess.

Blogger JACIII March 18, 2018 7:43 AM  

It's been a long time since the Falklands. New Hampshire would have a better chance of a positive outcome against The Bear than England.

Blogger GithYankee March 18, 2018 7:52 AM  

If you join the British army to fight for globalism, you are given money and career options.
If you speak out against Muslim extremism you get sent to jail, where you will be at the mercy of the very people you oppose.
I don't think the revolutionary and divisive events that are on the immediate horizon are obvious to regular people. They don't know who Brittany Pettibone and co. are, they think girls in hijabs are pretty, Nigerians can be british, etc.

Blogger SouthRon March 18, 2018 8:00 AM  

JACIII, I was thinking the same thing. The Empire is long dead. What third-world shit hole could Britain contend with on their own, much less The Bear?

Blogger The Lizard King March 18, 2018 8:05 AM  

@6 Peter Hitchens does not hold the view that religions should be treated the same and be equally welcome into his homeland. He has many times lamented how Christianity has been forced to be treated the same as any other religion in the UK before.

Blogger Robert Browning March 18, 2018 8:07 AM  

The fighting time is here. Something must be done. Trump is screwing everything up. Trump has abandoned the greater Israel project. Trump will not go to war with Turkey and Trump is allowing Assad to taken back Syria. That Goddamned Trump will not kill for the Jews. The Jews have abandoned Trump. The Jews have given up on Trump doing their killing for them and have now turned to a less powerful much weaker leader to do their killing for Israel. Seer Van Rensburg predicted England would be wiped off the face of the earth. There will be no more England.

Blogger VD March 18, 2018 8:18 AM  

He has many times lamented how Christianity has been forced to be treated the same as any other religion in the UK before.

Because the Enlightenment has proven to be a complete failure, freedom of speech and thought has proven to be a fraud, the separation of Church and State was perverted and failed, and it is time to make Christianity the only legal religion in the West. Western civilization flourished when that was the case. It will flourish again when that is the case.

You don't have to be a Christian believer, as one cannot dictate belief. But if the West is going to survive, then the adherents of any other religion should not be permitted to reside in the West.

Even if you don't believe in Jesus Christ, the general peace, civilization, and flush toilets would presumably be worth accepting Christian rule. And if you are an adherent of some other religion, then go live in a society based on its wonderful principles.

Blogger MOTW March 18, 2018 8:26 AM  

SteelPalm,

You said:

"So you're arguing he's a cuck who thinks all religions should be treated the same and equally welcome into Britain? And is desperately playing defense against the globalists instead of working to make the government of Britain right-wing and Christian? How is that any better?"

No, he realizes precisely that the rules won't be applied equally, because Islam will be treated with kid gloves while conservative Christians will be hammered (relatively speaking), and so he is opposed to a rule that will be used more against Christianity than against the very Islamic radicalism that it was supposed to be against.

Anyway, this is not the point of the OP, so this is my last comment on this specific topic.

Cheers.

Blogger Stilicho March 18, 2018 8:37 AM  

Interesting to see that pro-EU, anti-Brexit, anti-free speech, anti-Christian, anti-Russian, pro-war, anti-patriot, pro-fiat/anti-money, anti-gun, and corporate-crony factions are so united in their relentless pursuit of a global state. Just a few short years ago, Russia was their lodestar, their great hope of achieving their goal through international communism. Then Russia, while remaining Russia, threw off communism, re-embraced Christianity, and immediately became "the enemy". As I've said before, certain globalist/one-state factions see China as their next great hope for total dominion and will increasing attack any potential threat to Chinese expansion and power.

Blogger The Lizard King March 18, 2018 8:42 AM  

@17 One of the most surprising personal developments that I have undertaken over the last few years is my new found appreciation of Christianity. Had you told my 18 year (I am 24 now) that I would begin to wake up 8 AM every sunday so I could go to Church, I would not have believed it.

Stranger yet, I am still not sure if I believe or not, but I have come to the conclusion that regardless of what I believe, I would still much rather prefer to live in a world where the Church and christianity exists and serves as a strong foundation for which people to rally around. And that if we are to thrive again as a culture, we must have Christianity to serve as a bulwark against the nihilism, hedonism and decadance of modernity.

Blogger Johnny March 18, 2018 8:53 AM  

. The Kurgan March 18, 2018 6:52 AM
It has been my observation that the Nordic races of Europe (Anglo-Saxons, Teutonics, Etc) tend, as group, much more towards groupthink than the Southern Europeans (Italians, Greeks, Spaniards etc.)

Not so much group think as high trust. Civilizations tend to use up the people who trust the leadership.

The reason Churchill looked so good in WWII was that the rest of them looked so bad.

Blogger VD March 18, 2018 9:01 AM  

I would still much rather prefer to live in a world where the Church and christianity exists and serves as a strong foundation for which people to rally around. And that if we are to thrive again as a culture, we must have Christianity to serve as a bulwark against the nihilism, hedonism and decadance of modernity.

The biggest problem is getting people to understand that if you live in a culture that tolerates Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, or any other religion, you will not have a Christian culture. They all want to live in a Christian culture without the Christianity, but because the people of the West have had no experience of living in a non-Christian culture until recently, they did not understand this is not an option.

Now people are beginning to understand this. But it was always this way. If Jesus Christ is the Way the Truth and the Life, then Christian culture will be considered objectively superior even in the eyes of those who don't believe in him.

Blogger Daniel Paul Grech Pereira March 18, 2018 9:03 AM  

A good friend of mine, Greek Canadian, very intelligent and informed politically, has always maintained that Peter was "the better Hitchens". Perhaps he's right. All I can say is it's fortunate to still have one left.

Blogger Cubby8126 March 18, 2018 9:14 AM  

When i was a leftist, trust me i have made many changes in the past 4 years since i was 18, i still wanted to be in a christian society just due to it being the best society i had been in. Now that im pro west rightwinged, any other religion is completely unacceptable to me,including the oxymoronic religion of atheism (damn cultists), their values and morals are not compatable with the america that i want back. They have to go back.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan March 18, 2018 9:19 AM  

Should be fairly simple in one aspect, Jesus does not curse you for being white.

Look at all these star white athletes that overcome the narrative being spewed within "popular culture", those young men are in the belly of the beast surrounded by petty mean spirited non-white loons like Lebron James, the Oakland Raiders take your pick, any of the colored media hacks and the absolute dregs of the media the white cucks in the media who spend their entire shitty lives cursing "whites" or demeaning "whites" (the NFL combine being a prime example, Maycock here is looking at you).

Anyway these young men praise Jesus, I don't think the Left thought this out.

Blogger marco moltisanti March 18, 2018 9:40 AM  

"Everyone I meet now thinks they were against the Iraq War (I know most of them weren’t, but never mind)."

I'll admit that I enthusiastically supported the Iraq War. I was young and naive, bought the propaganda, and I had always been told that all people and cultures are equal. If we can force democracy, capitalism, and freedom on the Germans, Italians and Japanese, why not on the Iraqis I reasoned. Surely the same system of government that works for Anglo-Saxons and western Europeans will work for Arab Muslims. Unbelievably ignorant, but I sincerely believed what I'd been taught about equality and extrapolated it thus. Didn't help that I'd never actually lived in the third world among a non-European culture at the time.

Blogger SciVo March 18, 2018 9:42 AM  

Related: MP Ranil Jayawardena apparently values Englishness more than the English do.

Blogger Wynn Lloyd March 18, 2018 9:44 AM  

Looks like you got wise relatively early. I was a left-winger until age 27, then a cuck Christian after that. I didn't become fully red-pilled until 31 or so.

You are way ahead of many of us. That's encouraging. I have former "friends" who are still immature and stupid enough to buy into the left's insanity, and some of them are almost 40.

Blogger Nobody of Consequence March 18, 2018 9:54 AM  

IMO, the government controlled schools have brain-washed the idiots using a myriad of resources but primarily the Pledge. Everyone needs to learn from whence came the Pledge. Francis Bellamy, a defrocked Baptist minister and avowed christian socialist, wrote the Pledge to destroy state sovereignty and create a strong central "utopian" government in the US. A person's true nation is the State in which that person lives. The United States ARE NOT a nation, never were, were not set up to be. But the idiots are brain-washed by the system to place their loyalty in those who would enslave them. The United States are not granted power to conduct wars outside the US but they do because of all the idiots. The United States cannot legitimately sign treaties to protect other countries because that power was not given. Treaty power, yes but NOT authority to protect any other country or people, just the United States, each and all of them. None of this bogus "national interests". Our interests are within our borders. If some other country gets fecked that's their problem, not ours.

Blogger Cubby8126 March 18, 2018 10:07 AM  

Thank you. Best thing for it is slowly working in reasonable logic and with ch4istianity as its root. Something that got me was trying to figure out where good, societally healthy morals came from. When you dig deeply enough, its the morals god teaches. When societies steay from them, rome, america, etc, they fall. If people refuse to listen or attempt in any cpacity to change there is no use in trying to chnage them, and its best to leave them behind/burn the bridge.

Blogger Miguel March 18, 2018 10:17 AM  

The "funny" thing is that the movers and shakers inside the globalist movement are not atheists

Blogger Phelps March 18, 2018 10:32 AM  

The Global Deep State wants a war between the UK and Russia that is big enough that Britons forget that they voted for Brexit. Something big enough that they literally forgot that they voted that way.

Blogger pyrrhus March 18, 2018 10:36 AM  

"The reason Churchill looked so good in WWII was that the rest of them looked so bad."

Churchill made numerous blunders in WW2 and was bailed out by America, as usual. But Churchill's enthusiastic backing for WW1, which was catastrophic for Britain, created the opportunity for him to become a "hero" in WW2 . His control of the press helped, since they covered up Churchill's starvation of several million Bengalis to steal their food for Britain, and no doubt other unfortunate facts.

Blogger pyrrhus March 18, 2018 10:41 AM  

It remains a mystery how UKistan can "go to war" against Russia with a virtually nonexistent and technologically outdated military...Of course, it has nuclear weapons, which may even work, but would be blown off the map, literally, a few minutes later...

Blogger Mr.MantraMan March 18, 2018 10:59 AM  

Hitchens is stuck in the old failed let us have a dialectical discussion with the Left model, and that has only enshrined the Left as authority. If the Left did not have conservatives they would have had to invent them.

Now is the time to question the Left not make synthesis with the Left. IMO, contrary to all black pilled conservative conventional wisdom the AUTHORITY of the Left is a tottering mess.

Blogger Stephen Davenport March 18, 2018 11:29 AM  

Question for yor Vox, what the fuck are the English supposed to do about this, let it go? My biggest gripe about Republicans and especially libertarians is their exaggerated awe of the supposed Russian power. You are terrified of them, and only God knows why. You cannot allow countries like Russia to arbitrarily kill people in your country, you cannot. Does it mean we have to go to war, of course not but it does not mean acting like a pussy either. IMO

Blogger Snidely Whiplash March 18, 2018 11:32 AM  

Stephen Davenport wrote:Question for yor Vox, what the fuck are the English supposed to do about this, let it go?
What did they do about Polonium Man, who actually was killed by the Russains?
Stephen Davenport wrote:You cannot allow countries like Russia to arbitrarily kill people in your country, you cannot.
If the target is their national, why not? This has been going on literally forever, back to the stone age. I can't think of a single occasion it has led to this sort of bullshit war mania.

Blogger pyrrhus March 18, 2018 11:34 AM  

@36 What should the English do about this fake or false flag attack, about which they refuse to disclose any information to anyone? (Any release of Nowick would have killed thousands, including the perps.)Maybe arrest MI-6 or close the American Embassy...

Blogger pyrrhus March 18, 2018 11:35 AM  

@36 Another suggestion--hang the traitor Theresa May and all her co-conspiritors.

Blogger yoghi.llama March 18, 2018 11:37 AM  

In such difficult times, Christians might choose to maximize their appeal to cultural Christians and post-Christians by focusing on kerygma, as per Rudolf Bultmann.

Blogger pyrrhus March 18, 2018 11:43 AM  

I am finally beginning to understand how the insanity that was England's intervention in WW1 occurred....But that war only reduced England to genteel poverty, with an Empire that no longer benefitted anyone except the upper classes. This time, it will total destruction.

Blogger dienw March 18, 2018 11:43 AM  

I would still much rather prefer to live in a world where the Church and Christianity exists and serves as a strong foundation for which people to rally around.

If you prefer to dwell in a civilization influenced by the leaven of the Kingdom of Heaven, shouldn't this increase in you the desire to dwell in the kingdom of Heaven itself?

Blogger Johnny March 18, 2018 11:51 AM  

" You cannot allow countries like Russia to arbitrarily kill people in your country ..."

To make a small point, "countries like Russia." Like Russia? For better or worse governments do go about killing people in other countries. The most flagrant abusers are those who sponsor or tolerate terrorists in their territories. Plus we do a certain amount of killing. Way more than Russia in the post WWII period.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash March 18, 2018 11:56 AM  

Stephen Davenport wrote:You cannot allow countries like Russia to arbitrarily kill people in your country, you cannot. Does it mean we have to go to war, of course not but it does not mean acting like a pussy either. IMO
And yet, I am sure Mr. Davenport has no problem at all with our program of assassinating foreign citizens in their own countries.

Blogger Crush Limbraw March 18, 2018 11:58 AM  

It is gratifying to read some of the comments here by 20 and 30 year olds who have converted from their leftist past to DaVoxGang. I'm into my 9th decade and I don't see that kind of awakening in my generations. After all, who lost everything to the Left, eh?

Blogger VD March 18, 2018 11:59 AM  

Question for yor Vox, what the fuck are the English supposed to do about this, let it go?

Yes, of course. They are endangering the world over what looks like an obvious false flag.

My biggest gripe about Republicans and especially libertarians is their exaggerated awe of the supposed Russian power.

Then you are insanely stupid. There are at least 20 things that should bother you considerably more about them.

You are terrified of them, and only God knows why.

No, not terrified, merely appropriately respectful. I suggest you read more military history. The Russians have reliably defeated their attackers since the days of the Mongols. Turks, Americans, Brits, even Napoleon and Hitler. That's why "war on Russia" is the ultimate definition of stupidity.

You cannot allow countries like Russia to arbitrarily kill people in your country, you cannot. Does it mean we have to go to war, of course not but it does not mean acting like a pussy either.

First, no one was killed by the nerve agent. Second, there is literally zero evidence that Russia is responsible. The British have refused Russia's perfectly reasonable request to examine the evidence. Doesn't that tell you anything?

Britain: You did it.
Russia: No, we didn't.
Britain: Yes, you did.
Russia: Fine, prove it.
Britain: No.

All of the RUSSIA RUSSIA RUSSIA stuff is bullshit. How do you not see that?

Blogger Steve March 18, 2018 12:18 PM  

Dunno. Hitchens is part of the media bubble, (which includes the BBC's hand-picked Question Time audiences). So his observations, while correct, don't extend much further than Sodom-on-the-Thames. Granted, that's an unfortunately powerful constituency.

The media is spazzing out over Russia and Theresa May's "courageous" impotent threats against them, but I don't think the public actually gives a toss about Vladimir Putin and I don't think Corbyn will be hurt at the ballot box by his contrariness.

Britain desperately needs a Brexit party that will pursue British First policies

1,000,000% correct.

Blogger rainman March 18, 2018 12:39 PM  

Why are so many Americans and Britons "willing to take arms, fight, and die in wars against neutrals of no interest to their nations while never raising a voice against the Invade the World, Invite the World internal enemies"? I wish there was a complicated answer for this, something that could be changed, but really even among the physically brave and self-sacrificing, MPAI

Blogger Nakota Publishing March 18, 2018 12:48 PM  

Russia is a potential ally against globo-zionist evil. That's why the globo-zionists must demonize Putin and Russia.

Blogger D. Bay March 18, 2018 12:53 PM  

"By foolishly accepting bans on Muslim ‘extremists’"

Britain is doing this? If so, good show. Since it seemed they were welcoming extremist Muslims into their nation with open arms.

Blogger DonReynolds March 18, 2018 1:07 PM  

It seems to be a "British value" to go to war ONLY when totally unprepared (in every way) to conduct that war, against opponents who are either blood relatives or former colonies or close trading partners.

It seems to be a "British value" to defend principles that do not apply AFTER the war, but only BEFORE the war, and somehow those principles are abandoned during the war in favor of "pragmatism" and the filthy deals and promises made by the British Foreign Office.

It is certainly poor salesmanship to use Libya as an example of European military action. Our NATO "allies" were unable to scrape together the necessary aircraft and the operational capability to take over the Libya campaign when a single American aircraft carrier was withdrawn from the area. They have allowed their air services to dissolve over time until they are no longer capable of defending their own countries, much less projecting against a very weak (and close) state like Libya.

Go to war with Russia? Let me translate that from English to American....Pick a fight with a Russian bully and scream for your big brother to rake your ass out of the fire, then blame the Americans for the conduct of the war, and expect them to pay for it. That seems to be the sum-total of British military capability. They are a tripwire...just like Germany, and France, and Italy. A tripwire that the Russians get to trip that will mainly kill Americans, who will be tasked with correcting the diplomatic blunders of the Europeans, village by village at bayonet point. No thanks. WE have done that twice already in the last century.

Blogger Ken Prescott March 18, 2018 1:10 PM  

Yes, of course. They are endangering the world over what looks like an obvious false flag.

Vox, you cannot conclude it to be an "obvious" false flag based on the evidence at hand; the only way a "false flag" event is ever "obvious" is when one or more of the operators are caught red-handed.

It is entirely consistent with known Russian foreign covert operations during the Yeltsin and Putin eras--ham-handed and anything BUT covert in operational concept, incompetently executed, and ultimately counterproductive.

Blogger VD March 18, 2018 1:28 PM  

Vox, you cannot conclude it to be an "obvious" false flag based on the evidence at hand; the only way a "false flag" event is ever "obvious" is when one or more of the operators are caught red-handed.

Of course I can. The logic is sound. The British government clearly possesses both means and motive, and is known to have lied to the British people in order to engage them in wars before. You are confusing the concept of "obvious" with the concept of "conclusively proven".

Blogger Jack Amok March 18, 2018 1:34 PM  

No, not terrified, merely appropriately respectful. I suggest you read more military history.

I was going to suggest Mr. Davenport start getting into fistfights with anyone who causes a problem for him. He'd probably figure out fairly soon why sometimes you just let a thing go, without being "terrified" of the other guy. But maybe Vox's suggestion is better. At the very least, it would cause fewer problems for the neighbors.

Anonymous Anonymous March 18, 2018 2:11 PM  

to VD, my conclusions (looking from Moscow):

Of course, US need not meddle in the wars that have nothing with US national interests.
Of course, President Trump is completely right in his migration policy, new tariffs etc

But if you think that Putin's administration or "Russian" oligarchs may be allies of American nationalistic movement ("alt-right"), you have completely fantastic vision (or better to say, know nothing) about Putin's interior policy.

About "Skripal's incident".
Whole story seems like an anecdote. James Bond have had licensee 007. CIA has secret prisons around the world. But KGB has no right to kill state's traitor abroad:-)

Obliviously the intention of this campaign in Britain is to seize assets of some Russian oligarchs.
See new (month ago) British law:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/russians-in-britain-told-to-reveal-their-riches-6wxjrvqb0
Do you think such correlation is just an accident?

Blogger Resident Moron™ March 18, 2018 2:11 PM  

One does rather get the impression that a decision has been made, somewhere.

Blogger Ken Prescott March 18, 2018 2:11 PM  

Of course I can. The logic is sound.

Logic without evidence to work with is not sound.

Blogger Skyler the Weird March 18, 2018 2:11 PM  

" You cannot allow countries like Russia to arbitrarily kill people in your country ..."

I remember Bush and Obama launching drone attacks on supposed terrorists in countries we were supposedly allied with.

Blogger Johnny March 18, 2018 2:16 PM  

But if you think that Putin's administration or "Russian" oligarchs may be allies of American nationalistic movement ("alt-right") ...

The sensible guess here would be that there are internal factions in Russia that would be supportive of the alt-right because it worked to some internal to Russia interest. Coincidental mutual interest.

Blogger Johnny March 18, 2018 2:20 PM  



No, not terrified, merely appropriately respectful. I suggest you read more military history.

As a casual student of Russian history, I think the way it worked was that the Russ in Moscow avoided the Mongols by being above the tree line. I am guessing they became a success about the time guns became available. And they did withstand two major assaults on their territory, Hitler and Napoleon.

And now they are a nuclear weapon armed country with much better delivery systems then, say, North Korea. The smart thing for both us and Russia to do is to try to put together a relationship that makes a nuclear exchange very unlikely.

The second thing about Russia is that if the country became too weak to defend its many dangerous borders, it would create instability right in the middle of the Eurasian Continent. That would invite every kind of hazard.

Blogger Skyler the Weird March 18, 2018 2:45 PM  

May wants to refight the Crimean War.

Blogger Skyler the Weird March 18, 2018 2:47 PM  

Johnny. Don't forget the Great Northern War and Alexander Nevsky and the Teutonic Knights.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine March 18, 2018 3:38 PM  

"Hitchens is stuck in the old failed let us have a dialectical discussion with the Left model, and that has only enshrined the Left as authority."

Indeed. You don't try to have a reasonable discussion with spoiled brats. Instead, you spank them.

Blogger VD March 18, 2018 3:46 PM  

Logic without evidence to work with is not sound.

You clearly do not understand what logic or how it works. It does not require any evidence whatsoever to be sound. It does not even need to be correct in order to be sound.

Stop now before you dig yourself in any deeper.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine March 18, 2018 3:49 PM  

"what the fuck are the English supposed to do about this, let it go?"

When they don't actually even know who did it? Even if they DID have incontrovertible evidence, their reaction is the equivalent to being pinched and then proceeding to whip out an eight gauge shotgun and start shaking while aiming it at the perpetrator's head.

...Did I mention the shotgun has no shells in it?

The only sane responses are to either let it go, or pinch back, not to whip out the detonator and open your coat to reveal the suicide vest ...full of directional charges that all face inward.

"Britain is doing this? If so, good show."

Of course they are. It's human-centipeded to a no-true-Scotsman fallacy so that they can say that Islam is a religion of peace, and only the extremists are violent. Ultimately they'll pull it full 360 and say that no moslems are extremists.

"you cannot conclude it to be an "obvious" false flag based on the evidence at hand"

Actually you can do precisely that based on their absurd/instantaneous reaction to it alone. That's the only evidence we see so far, and it's pretty compelling.

Blogger VD March 18, 2018 3:52 PM  

But if you think that Putin's administration or "Russian" oligarchs may be allies of American nationalistic movement ("alt-right"), you have completely fantastic vision (or better to say, know nothing) about Putin's interior policy.

I have never said anything of the sort. So why are you babbling about irrelevancies?

You're not going to survive here long if you try to argue with strawmen instead of what I have actually written. As a general rule, do not use the words "if you think" when you address me. I tend to end up banning people who do that very quickly.

Blogger SciVo March 18, 2018 5:26 PM  

Stephen Davenport wrote:You cannot allow countries like Russia to arbitrarily kill people in your country, you cannot.

Sure you can. We let Mexican nationals kill Americans in America all the time, and you don't see us getting all pissy about it. (I would argue that we shouldn't allow it, but if the question is whether we can, the answer is observably "yes and we do.")

Blogger SciVo March 18, 2018 5:27 PM  

And when it comes to Mexican nationals killing Mexican nationals in America, literally no one cares.

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener March 18, 2018 5:37 PM  

Polonium is hard to come by. There must be tens of thousands of private companies worldwide that could synthesize (or outright purchase) Novichok precursors if they wanted to.

Blogger Frank Brady March 18, 2018 10:16 PM  

Actually, many of the most rabid anti-Russian posters who frequent these pages have absolutely no idea of the transformation that has occured in Russia post-Putin. Russia, for example, is today more of a Christian nation than the US in terms of supporting traditional moral values. Russia has invaded NO ONE. Thanks to the malfeasance of our "news media", I doubt that 5% of the people know that the it was the U.S. not Russia, that was the aggressor in the Ukraine, participating in the violent overthrow of its democratically-elected president and installing a puppet in his stead.

Anonymous Anonymous March 18, 2018 10:36 PM  

People like The Saker are saying that the neo-cons have co-opted the Trump administration, that Pompeo (Trump's nominee for Secretary of State) is, in fact, a neo-con. The ominous news coming out of Syria, the threats from Russia, the obvious hate-Russia campaign in the MSM all leave me feeling more than a bit nervous. (Yeah, I know, the Dodger sees through a glass darkly at the best of times.)

One of the reasons I support Trump is because of his opposition to the Always War policy of the U.S. government. If he abandons that policy, I will have to conclude that he is irremediably corrupt.

Time will tell. Meanwhile, I will be looking to this site, and a few others, for war news. No news would definitely be the best news. Praying as I write this.

Anonymous Anonymous March 18, 2018 11:32 PM  

About the Skripal incident: the choice isn't just between "The Russian Government did it" and "The Brits did it to make the Russians look bad". There is a third alternative, that I would call the "No Flag" option.

There is a human tendency to assume that spectacular murders have complex causes--that they are the result of carefully worked out conspiracies. Sometimes the causes are much simpler, and attributable to things like petty revenge. Consider the Kaufman County murders (https://infogalactic.com/info/Kaufman_County_murders). It was widely assumed at the time that the murder of two prosecutors in Texas was attributable to a conspiracy. I live nearby, and I was sure holding my breath in anticipation of more assassinations. Naturally, right wing organizations like the Aryan Nations were at the top of the suspect list. When the murderer was caught, it turned out to be a petty county official who had been prosecuted for theft by the victims. He killed them for revenge. (The story has unique twists and turns--there are indications that the victims were not blameless; it would make a good book. Too bad I'm not energetic enough to write it, but someone really should.)

The Skripal incident could be something similar. Someone floated a "the mother in law did it" story which might even be true. (Never marry a woman whose mother wears actual stiletto heels.)

If the "No Flag" hypothesis is correct, the British Government's reactions are opportunistic. Monstrously, criminally opportunistic. They didn't create the incident, but they took advantage of it. Here was an opportunity to blame the Russians, and distract everyone from domestic issues. The end result of the "no flag" hypothesis isn't that much different than "false flag", except that it allows for simpler causes, and does not require me to believe in conspiracies that I, at least, find improbable.

No matter which scenario we operate under--False Flag or No Flag--the results are the same, and so are the unanswered questions. Who has seen a sample of this alleged poison? How do we know it was a "nerve agent" at all, let alone the specific nerve agent that only Russians can make? Where is the detailed lab analysis, and the technician's sworn testimony? How was the substance delivered? And last but not least, who delivered it?

In either scenario, the Brits are lying hyenas.

Blogger SciVo March 19, 2018 2:43 AM  

Let's see, if I were to make a list of countries to attack, how would it go...

For Changing Ballot Results (at 2.4% minimum:
Mexico
Latin America (which is apparently a country of origin now, for aliens in the U.S.)
Asia (how is that a country of origin??)

For Killing Americans:
Mexico
Saudi Arabia
Latin America

For Sponsoring Islamic Terrorism:
Qatar
Saudi Arabia
Iran

For Threatening Us With Nukes:
North Korea
Iran
I Feel Like I'm Forgetting Someone

For Economic Warfare:
China
Mexico
India
New York
Well Who Isn't Really

For Cultural Warfare:
Saudi Arabia
China
California

For Smuggling (drugs, guns, people):
Mexico
Canada
Cuba

For Most Likely To Break Alliance:
Turkey
Pakistan
Again Feel Like I'm Forgetting Someone

Russia isn't even on any of those lists! Maybe if you made one "For Thwarting Our Global Hegemonic Imperial Ambitions," but I don't give a flying rat's patootie about that.

Blogger John Best March 19, 2018 11:31 AM  

A British women fighting for Kurdistan was just killed in Northern Syria by a Turkish airstrike, crickets from the British state about going to war with Turkey. A Russian double agent attacked (not killed) with a nerve agent in England, without proof of Russian involvement, never end calls for war. Makes one think that the British state is playing to someone else's tune, rather than those who kill British people.

Blogger Taignobias March 19, 2018 1:15 PM  

I am so primed by the past years of media, that I believe Putin himself could strangle Congress on CSPAN cameras and I'd think it a hoax.

"Media who cried RUSSIA"

Blogger Snidely Whiplash March 19, 2018 5:34 PM  

Taignobias said:
I am so primed by the past years of media, that I believe Putin himself could strangle Congress on CSPAN cameras and I'd think it a hoax.
If Putin were to do that, I'd nominate him for President.

Blogger Frank Brady March 19, 2018 10:11 PM  

And I would second Snidely's nomination and vote twice.

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