Sunday, March 25, 2018

St. Possenti is Leibowitz

Ugo Bardi observes that when a great civilization is failing, both the great and the small inhabitants are aware that something significant has changed, but they are almost completely unable to grasp the full extent to which societal change is taking place or conceive of the possibility of the complete collapse of their way of life.
Let's start from the beginning...with the people who were contemporary to the collapse, the Romans themselves. Did they understand what was happening to them? This is a very important point: if a society, intended as its government, can understand that collapse is coming, can they do something to avoid it? It is relevant to our own situation, today.

Of course, the ancient Romans are long gone and they didn't leave us newspapers. Today we have huge amounts of documents but, from Roman times, we have very little. All that has survived from those times had to be slowly hand copied by a Medieval monk, and a lot has been lost. We have a lot of texts by Roman historians - none of them seemed to understand exactly what was going on. Historians of that time were more like chroniclers; they reported the facts they knew. Not that they didn't have their ideas on what they were describing, but they were not trying to make models, as we would say today. So, I think it may be interesting to give a look to documents written by people who were not historians; but who were living the collapse of the Roman Empire. What did they think of what was going on?

Let me start with Emperor Marcus Aurelius, who lived from 120 to 180 A.D. He was probably the last Emperor who ruled a strong empire. Yet, he spent most of his life fighting to keep the Empire together; fighting barbarians. Maybe you have seen the movie "The Gladiator": Marcus Aurelius appears in the first scenes. The movie is not historically accurate, of course, but it is true that Aurelius died in the field, while he was fighting invaders. He wasn't fighting for glory, he wasn't fighting to conquer new territories. He was just fighting to keep the Empire together, and he had a terribly hard time doing just that. Times had changed a lot from the times of Caesar and of Trajan.

Marcus Aurelius did what he could to keep the barbarians away but, a few decades after his death, the Empire had basically collapsed. That was what historians call "the third century crisis". It was really bad; a disaster. The empire managed to survive for a couple of centuries longer as a political entity, but it wasn't the same thing. It was not any longer the Empire of Marcus Aurelius; it was something that just tried to survive as best as it could, fighting barbarians, plagues, famines, warlords and all kinds of disasters falling on them one after the other. Eventually, the Empire disappeared also as a political entity. It did that with a whimper - at least in its Western part, in the 5th century a.d. The Eastern Empire lasted much longer, but that is another story.

Here is a piece of statuary from Roman times. We know what Marcus Aurelius looked like.

Now, if it is rare that we have the portrait of a man who lived so long ago, it is even rarer that we can also read his inner thoughts. But that we can do that with Marcus Aurelius. He was a "philosopher-emperor" who left us his "Meditations"; a book of philosophical thoughts. For instance, you can read such things as:

Though thou shouldst be going to live three thousand years, and as many times ten thousand years, still remember that no man loses any other life than this which he now lives, nor lives any other than this which he now loses.

That is the typical tune of the book - you may find it fascinating or perhaps boring; it depends on you. Personally, I find it fascinating. The "Meditations" is a statement from a man who was seeing his world crumbling down around him and who strove nevertheless to maintain a personal balance; to keep a moral stance. Aurelius surely understood that something was wrong with the Empire: during all their history, the Romans had been almost always on the offensive. Now, they were always defending themselves. That wasn't right; of course.

But you never find in the Meditations a single line that lets you suspect that the Emperor thought that there was something to be done other than simply fighting to keep the barbarians out. You never read that the Emperor was considering, say, things like social reform, or maybe something to redress the disastrous situation of the economy. He had no concern, apparently, that the Empire could actually fall one day or another.

Now, I'd like to show you an excerpt from another document; written perhaps by late 4th century. Probably after the battle of Adrianopolis; that was one of last important battles fought (and lost) by the Roman Empire. This is a curious document. It is called, normally, "Of matters of war" because the title and the name of the author have been lost. But we have the bulk of the text and we can say that the author was probably somebody high up in the imperial bureaucracy. Someone very creative - clearly - you can see that from the illustrations of the book. Of course what we see now are not the original illustrations, but copies made during the Middle Ages. But the fact that the book had these illustration was probably what made it survive: people liked these colorful illustrations and had the book copied. So it wasn't lost. The author described all sorts of curious weaponry. One that you can see here is a warship powered by oxen.

Of course, a ship like this one would never have worked. Think of how to feed the oxen. And think of how to manage the final results of feeding the oxen. Probably none of the curious weapons invented by our anonymous author would ever have worked. It all reminds me of Jeremy Rifkin and his hydrogen-based economy. Rifkin understands what is the problem, but the solutions he proposes, well, are a little like the end result of feeding the oxen; but let me not go into that. The point is that our 4th century author does understand that the Roman Empire is in trouble. Actually, he seems to be scared to death because of what's happening. Read this sentence, I am showing it to you in the original Latin to give you a sense of the flavor of this text.

“In primis sciendum est quod imperium romanum circumlatrantium ubique nationum perstringat insania et omne latus limitum tecta naturalibus locis appetat dolosa barbaries."

Of course you may not be able to translate from Latin on the spot. For that, being Italian gives you a definite advantage. But let me just point out a word to you: "circumlatrantium" which refers to barbarians who are, literally, "barking around" the empire's borders. They are like dogs barking and running around; and not just barking - they are trying hard to get in. It is almost a scene from a horror movie. A nightmare. So the author of "Of matters of war" is thinking of how to get rid of these monsters. But his solutions were not so good. Actually it was just wishful thinking. None of these strange weapons were ever built. Even our 4th century author, therefore, fails completely in understanding what were the real problems of the Empire.

Now, I would like to show you just another document from the time of the Roman Empire. It is "De Reditu suo", by Rutilius Namatianus. The title means "of his return". Namatianus was a patrician who lived in the early 5th century; he was a contemporary of St. Patrick, the Irish saint. He had some kind of job with the imperial administration in Rome. It was some decades before the "official" disappearance of the Western Roman Empire; that was in 476, when the last emperor, Romolus Augustulus, was deposed. You may have seen Romulus Augustulus as protagonist of the movie "The Last Legion". Of course that is not a movie that pretends to be historically accurate, but it is fun to think that after so many years we are still interested in the last years of the Roman Empire - it is a subject of endless fascination. Even the book by Namatianus has been transformed into a movie, as you can see in the figure. It is a work of fantasy, but they have tried to be faithful to the spirit of Namatianus' report. It must be an interesting movie, but it has been shown only in theaters in Italy, and even there for a very short time; so I missed it. But let's move on.

Namatianus lived at a time that was very close to the last gasp of the Empire. He found that, at some point, it wasn't possible to live in Rome any longer. Everything was collapsing around him and he decided to take a boat and leave. He was born in Gallia, that we call "France" today, and apparently he had some properties there. So, that is where he headed for. That is the reason for the title "of his return". He must have arrived there and survived for some time, because the document that he wrote about his travel has survived and we can still read it, even though the end is missing. So, Namatianus gives us this chilling report. Just read this excerpt:

"I have chosen the sea, since roads by land, if on the level, are flooded by rivers; if on higher ground, are beset with rocks. Since Tuscany and since the Aurelian highway, after suffering the outrages of Goths with fire or sword, can no longer control forest with homestead or river with bridge, it is better to entrust my sails to the wayward."

Can you believe that? If there was a thing that the Romans had always been proud of were their roads. These roads had a military purpose, of course, but everybody could use them. A Roman Empire without roads is not the Roman Empire, it is something else altogether. Think of Los Angeles without highways. "Sic transit gloria mundi" , as the Romans would say; there goes the glory of the world. Namatianus tells us also of silted harbors, deserted cities, a landscape of ruins that he sees as he moves north along the Italian coast.

But what does Namatianus think of all this? Well, he sees the collapse all around him, but he can't understand it. For him, the reasons of the fall of Rome are totally incomprehensible. He can only interpret what is going on as a temporary setback. Rome had hard times before but the Romans always rebounded and eventually triumphed over their enemies. It has always been like this, Rome will become powerful and rich again.

There would be much more to say on this matter, but I think it is enough to say that the Romans did not really understand what was happening to their Empire, except in terms of military setbacks that they always saw as temporary. They always seemed to think that these setbacks could be redressed by increasing the size of the army and building more fortifications. Also, it gives us an idea of what it is like living a collapse "from the inside". Most people just don't see it happening - it is like being a fish: you don't see the water.
The tragedy of the cassandra is that he has the ability to see the collapse coming, but no ability to do anything to stop it. I have been able to see the collapse of the USA coming since 1995, once the implications of the 1986 immigration amnesty became clear to me, but even I had no idea until fairly recently that this inevitable collapse was likely to be part of a larger civilization-wide event. It's not merely the USA that is in bad shape, but the secondary powers of China, Russia, and Europe as well.

And the tragedy of the neo-liberal world order was that in thinking to bring progress to the world, they have brought destruction to the West. At this point, the imperial USA is beyond salvaging because the Not-Americans outnumber the Americans. This is why I have been urging people to stop thinking in terms of fixing the USA or restoring it to its former power and glory. MAGA is not an eight-year program, it is probably more of an 80-year program, and if we are unlucky, an 800-year program. If you think I am exaggerating, recall how long it took for Spain to become great again after it first experienced Islamic immigration.

Westerners either need an unlikely champion who is the optimal combination of Charles Martel and Pol Pot or we need to think in terms of preserving knowledge for the future instead of preventing that which our fellow Westerners will never be able to accept or understand until it is too late. They will preach about the evils of the nameless, faceless Left and preen about the importance of this as they posture about the importance of that, and all of it is entirely irrelevant.

Iam canes intra moenia latrantes.

The barking dogs are already inside the walls.
Our Druids may be better than those of the times of the Roman Empire, at least they have digital computers. But our leaders are no better apt at understanding complex system than the military commanders who ruled the Roman Empire. Even our leaders were better, they would face the same problems: there are no structures that can gently lead society to where it is going. We have only structures that are there to keep society where it is - no matter how difficult and uncomfortable it is to be there. It is exactly what Tainter says: we react to problems by building structure that are more and more complex and that, in the end, produce a negative return. That's why societies collapse.
This also explains why the globalists feel fully justified in their Neo-Babelism. They believe that they are constructing a new civilization that will rise from the ashes of the old one, a secular Byzantium to Christendom's Rome. That is why the phoenix is one of their favorite symbols. What most of them do not realize is that what they are building is not a new world order, but a very old one.

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Blogger Fred March 25, 2018 7:39 AM  

Vox I see it. It began recently with the lawlessness caused by Obama that affects everyone(look at driving on any road-traffic laws broken every second). The spirit of entitlement of everyone, especially the pathetic Millennials, just like the Roman legions plundering for their retirements when Rome fell. Without Christ, it would be very discouraging.

Blogger prayers for peace March 25, 2018 7:47 AM  

Very thought provoking post.

Blogger Looking Glass March 25, 2018 7:48 AM  

"And the tragedy of the neo-liberal world order was that in thinking to bring progress to the world, they have brought destruction to the West."

I would argue that they never had any intent on bringing progress to the world. They were only trying to re-establish control after their power collapsed at the end of the Great Powers period, and those plucky, annoying Americans suddenly became incredibly strong. (Mostly because all of the Engineers went West.)

On the core understandings to maintain: Mechanical Engineering & Metallurgy. Those are actually what built the modern world. What built the modern world was, mostly, a bunch of Scots in sheds with nothing better to do. The stored value of high-quality Steel is beyond practically the entire ancient world.

Blogger Rick March 25, 2018 7:56 AM  

Never OT:
Miracle of miracles:

Thomas Wictor is on board with: the wall will begin Monday and TGE pulled it off in several ways and the last piece was the omnibus bill.
Clever as the serpent.
Innocent as the dove.
And you will move MOUNTAINS.

Blogger VD March 25, 2018 7:58 AM  

Vox I see it. It began recently with the lawlessness caused by Obama.

No, you obviously don't. And no, it didn't. There are three significant dates: 1861, 1913, and 1965. The combination of those three events are what sufficed to end America. There are other dates of significance, but those are the three primary nexuses.

Blogger dienw March 25, 2018 8:06 AM  

The Holy Spirit gave me this text for this morning's reading:
Dan 5:25  And this is the writing that was written, MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN. 
Dan 5:26  This is the interpretation of the thing: MENE; God hath numbered thy kingdom, and finished it. 
Dan 5:27  TEKEL; Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting. 
Dan 5:28  PERES; Thy kingdom is divided, and given to the Medes and Persians. 

Blogger prayers for peace March 25, 2018 8:17 AM  

Its interesting to compare and contrast USA and the Roman Empire. One differnce though that jumps out at me is that at least in the early Roman empire historical wvidence suggests Christians were persecuted pretty bad. Nero who I read had a Jewish wife and Diocetian seem to have been brutal against Christians and Christianity....Christianity in the USA is still pretty strong though there is some persecution

Blogger digz March 25, 2018 8:18 AM  

Reading this coming from past greats such as Marcus Aurelius who realized it but still couldn't do anything about it, It sounds like its simply a matter of time before *any* great civilization is destroyed and VD cites the watershed immigration acts etc, but if not those something else would have done it, Since it has been happening since beginning of time, it seems almost counter intuitive to blame the neocons ( they are merely clueless agents executing on behalf of a inexorable force.. ), Notice at the end of the original post
"Nature which governs the whole will soon change all things which thou seest, and out of their substance will make other things, and again other things from the substance of them, in order that the world may be ever new."

Marcus Aurelius Verus - "Meditations" ca. 167 A.D.

Blogger wreckage March 25, 2018 8:19 AM  

1861, the establishment of an Imperial American state providing centralized control of the population, and rigidity in structure; 1913 that Imperial State seized control of revenues (and began the move from a production dependent to a trade dependent economy?) and 1965 provided the legal means of population replacement.

About right?

Blogger wreckage March 25, 2018 8:23 AM  

I suspect any Imperial structure is destroyed by its own contradictions. TO exist it must assume the superiority, in fact the perfection, of its administrative complex. The administrative complex expands to consume all available resources, or becomes rigid and inert. The empire then either collapses (scenario one, Western Empire) or is unable to adapt over time (scenario two, Eastern empire?).

Anonymous Anonymous March 25, 2018 8:24 AM  

Bardi is brilliant. That was.a humbling read

Blogger Fred March 25, 2018 8:25 AM  

VD - fair enough;'Started' was the wrong choice of words. What I meant was 'in your face manifestation of lawlessness, greed, and avarice' which wasnt visible to extreme until Obama was elected.

Blogger VD March 25, 2018 8:26 AM  

About right?

Yes, that's correct. Each step significantly increased the fragility of US society. Now what we're anticipating can't even be reasonably described as a Black Swan event, because all of the probabilities now indicate collapse. We know it's going to happen, we simply don't know when nor do we know the proximate cause.

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer March 25, 2018 8:29 AM  

Was listening to a local "conservative" talk radio show yesterday. What struck me was just how much they don't get it. They were complaining about Roy Moore being a "stain" on Alabama. A Moore supporter called in and asked them to justify their disdain. Long and short of it was that their objections to Moore were a) aesthetic and b) he made them look bad to non-conservatives. I was particularly struck when one of the hosts complained that Moore was 50 years behind the times. As C.S. Lewis said in The Screwtape Letters, the adversary needs to get people out of the habit of considering whether ideas or right or wrong and into the habit of considering if they are fashionable or not.

Blogger VD March 25, 2018 8:30 AM  

What I meant was 'in your face manifestation of lawlessness, greed, and avarice' which wasnt visible to extreme until Obama was elected.

You're still wrong, Fred. The sexual revolution, yuppies, "greed is good", and the bank bailouts all took place before Obama was elected. Obama has literally nothing to do with this, he was nothing more than one minor manifestation of the various trends involved.

You're just another conservative trying to blame the nameless, faceless Left rather than face the full extent of the real problems.

Blogger VD March 25, 2018 8:31 AM  

he made them look bad to non-conservatives.

The primary fear of every conservative. That is why they are so totally useless. They are cowards to the core, unmanned by the mere possibility of being called names.

Blogger Looking Glass March 25, 2018 8:31 AM  

In terms of history, we're actually coming off a period of "only interesting because of how little actually happened". Maybe they'll called it the "Dullissance" after the fact. "Why couldn't they see what was coming?" someone will ask when this period is 2 pages in a history book in 150 years. It really will be "collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991" then "smartphone" then whatever comes next.

In the Christian context, the early 1900s is the lowest point of the Church since the wars following the Reformation. Were churches sending missionaries or refugees to the rest of the world? By the current trends of spread, it looks a lot more like Christians were fleeing the coming storm than just evangelizing. It's going to be another century before a lot of the problems are "fixed", though they can be helped along.

Now, to avoid getting too down in the dumps, some easy suggestions in the "what can I do category?". Think in terms of Asymmetry. The World wants you to waste all of your time, energy & effort, so our focus should be on doing the things that are of the utmost value. Especially those things that have lasting value & effect.

@13 VD

We also don't know if the trigger will be interior or exterior. Is the USA the first to go, or is it the last hold out? (I guess we're back to Western vs Eastern Roman Empire again?)

Anonymous Anonymous March 25, 2018 8:31 AM  

Too many parallels to Rome for me to sleep easy.

Social Wars = Social Media Wars?

Who is Marius, and who is Sulla in this latest version of history seeming to rhyme?

Blogger Long Live The West March 25, 2018 8:35 AM  

That was very interesting. The first sentence did a very good job of summing up America.

"Westerners either need an unlikely champion who is the optimal combination of Charles Martel and Pol Pot or we need to think in terms of preserving knowledge for the future instead of preventing that which our fellow Westerners will never be able to accept or understand until it is too late. They will preach about the evils of the nameless, faceless Left and preen about the importance of this as they posture about the importance of that, and all of it is entirely irrelevant."

Unfortunately I believe we aren't ready for a champion yet. Someone with the strength to do what truly needs to be done wouldn't be accepted... yet. As time goes on it becomes more likely, especially considering that there's bound to be some major shock waves at some point in the near future that will shake people's world. But as of now even a large portion of right leaning people still see the invaders as 'immigrants' instead of illegal aliens. Because you know, they wouldn't want to offend the criminals. Aren't they nice?

As you said, the passing of knowledge is vital. Have some babies, then teach those babies how to think and fight, not become a blue haired slut or soy boy. We're not in an open war yet. But it IS coming.

Blogger Looking Glass March 25, 2018 8:39 AM  

@18 phenixrising16

Well, Trump might be either Vespaian (founder of the Flavian dynasty) or Trajan. I'm really hoping for Trajan.

Blogger Durandel March 25, 2018 8:40 AM  

Vox, didn’t you post about this article back in 2012? I remember using it along with “Democracy: The God that Failed” for short paper on the US collapse back in seminary. Pretty sure I got the link from you, but maybe it was Lee Rockwell back in my Mises days.

Anyway, great reread. Mr. Bardi has a number of good articles out there worth reading.

Question to you, what then should be the response of pro-West Westerners? Prepperism? Coordinated diaspora? Make arrangements to move back to Euro countries that aren’t set to kill themselves?

Anonymous Anonymous March 25, 2018 8:41 AM  

There was one thing that surprised me most as I aged. The modern church had half prepared me to understand how vile or evil men could be, so I wasn't shocked about that, though the depth of it can be striking.

No, it was the stupidity of those who claimed to be experts and elites. They couldn't just not see the flaws in their systems; they often didn't care and had shielded themselves from the consequences.

Understanding the consequences when multiple systems interact? Why bother?

To OP's point, however: Do they know what might generally happen? Do they know something is amiss? There's no indication they do, not yet...

And they won't until the game peels back a bit of skin. It will most likely come to that.


Blogger Mr.MantraMan March 25, 2018 8:43 AM  

Doom posting is a high wire act over the pit of despair.

Funny the guy mentions "The Oil Drum" which I am proud to say I was booted off by the gals who ran that particular leftist cult for simply and politely asking of some twink by the name of Alanfrombigeasy how his climate change proscriptions would effect the poor half of the Democratic Party coalition.

Secondly TOD is where I learned that the Blank Slate Theory is an embarasment and at best the noble lie they tell one another, after I remarked to sage and wise atheist of that group if he had any opinions on the BST, and he remarked about its stupidity while the other leftists did the internet navel gaze

Blogger Looking Glass March 25, 2018 8:51 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Rocklea Marina March 25, 2018 8:52 AM  

At least most of the rare earth minerals and useful metals will be clumped in fairly compact areas for future human to mine. I wonder how that big chunk of iron ore ended up in Western Australia?

You link to the bestest articles.

Blogger Looking Glass March 25, 2018 8:53 AM  

@22 nhinsnow

Being without God, they are without Wisdom.

Proverbs 1:25-26 ESV

"because you have ignored all my counsel
and would have none of my reproof,
I also will laugh at your calamity;
I will mock when terror strikes you,"

There's not many places in the Bible the Lord says He'll "laugh at your calamity", but it's right there in Proverbs.

They can't see it. The ones that can, will never admit it to themselves long enough to accept the consequences of change. They're weak & afraid, regardless of the face they put forward. The fear dulls their ability to understand when the storm rages against them. Some understand something is "wrong", but they have no prescription to address the coming disaster.

Then, there's the SJWs. The True Believers. They won't understand until Death has embraced them, then they will know the Truth and the Truth will reject them for eternity.

Blogger dumnonia-watchman March 25, 2018 8:56 AM  

Any Christian will surely realise this is God's doing (in modern times).

Leviticus 26, Deuteronomy 26 & 28, go and read them now.

We should not be at all surprised to see strangers ruling us, and foreigners being imported, because we have brought the curse of Jehovah upon our lands.

And why? Specifically, we ignore His laws, commands and statutes. Even solid evangelical Christians ignore what God and Jesus say about the law.

So, it happens, it will continue to happen, it will get worse and worse for many many decades.

Unless we turn back to His laws and commands and covenants, we have literally no hope of rescue by God, other than He will eventually send Jesus back for his next mission.

I have yet to see any alt-right or Christian writers anywhere touch on this point.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan March 25, 2018 9:02 AM  

Because Gary all that blather using bible verses is the usual noble posturing of the losercons.

Losercons posture and pose, and in strategic sense well they have none nor do they any operational art even if they had a strategic vision, which they do not.

Blogger Laramie Hirsch March 25, 2018 9:02 AM  

I really enjoy these posts where you think in the LONG LONG term. That's often how I think politically, in any event.

Now, you say:

"MAGA is not an eight-year program, it is probably more of an 80-year program, and if we are unlucky, an 800-year program. If you think I am exaggerating, recall how long it took for Spain to become great again after it first experienced Islamic immigration.

Westerners either need an unlikely champion who is the optimal combination of Charles Martel and Pol Pot or..."

Yes. I think that in the LONG term, in our future, we will see such a Charles Martel or Pol Pot. We will see rulers, not republics. That is why I think that most of the world--including this continent--is going to abandon the idea of democracy and republics, and actually adopt monarchy. They might not want to call it by that name, but that's what it will be.

"Those who survive all of this will have to relearn the basic instincts of social life–things such as solidarity, authority, and loyalty–and the very first gimcrack contrivance of the decadent Western world they will toss aside, almost without even thinking about it, will be parliamentary democracy.”

-Christophe Buffin de Chosal

Blogger Robert Coble March 25, 2018 9:03 AM  

Perhaps it is time to consider development of a Seldon Plan to shorten the interregnum from the current Empire to the next Empire, with the two Foundations: one to visibly preserve the technological base and the second to provide "guidance" of the Plan to fruition.

Where do we find our Professor Hari Seldon to formulate the Plan? And what do we do when an unpredictable Mule inevitably arises? There are many possible Black Swans.

Nassim Nicholas Telb's latest book Skin in the Game is eye-opening. Writ large, the lack of skin in the game is a significant cause of the fragility and eventual collapse of complex human systems. Perhaps this flaw can be mitigated in the future Empire. The American Founders attempted to provide safeguards, but obviously failed to consider the mutations that would inevitably occur once a professional political class arose which had no skin in the game.

I am well aware that this kind of thing is fiction.

Blogger Unknown March 25, 2018 9:06 AM  

The GE is like Aurelian, he is stabilizing the situation enough so that the rot can be beaten back later. Guys who want him to put names in parentheses in his tweets, or completely defund Israel, or put pieces of Charles Murray in his speeches, are demanding too much too fast. They are wanting a Marcus Aurelius-style, punitive incursion into Germanic territory, so that the enemy can be slaughtered in their own lands, which is impossible, because like Aurelian, the GE is having to rush from front to front to put invaders in check. Surely we will get our own Constantine in the future, but he will owe his successes to the GE. Aurelian and Constantine had a Bernie Sanders style figure in-between them (I mean Diocletian's stubborn clinging to an outdated model of society, not his strong, military acumen). . Diocletian insisted that every aspect of life remain the exact same as it was in Rome's heyday, which was unrealistic. He tried to save the multipolar empire by creating junior emperors. He attempted to control prices by government decree, having zero understanding of supply and demand. New ways of thinking (like the 16 points) were suppressed, and of course, Diocletian attempted to wipe out Christianity
When some guys insist that everything we build has to be a reflection of the 1950s and 1960s, and that all culture has to be able to fit into the film The Sandlot, we're hindering our progress. A restored West in 2,050 will not resemble traditional Americana, most likely. Not completely, anyway.
Sorry for the long rant; we all are having trouble trying to see these events accurately.

As for Vox, in terms of thought he's like a combination of Ammianus Marcellinus (strategic thinking); and St. Augustine (of course I mean
Augustine's thought on bringing forth a new model, and being able to see past the collapse of the world as most people knew it).

Blogger Looking Glass March 25, 2018 9:06 AM  

@27 Gary

1) We aren't under The Law.
2) These things started long before the Lord was explicitly rejected by much of the countries.
3) We, as Gentiles, are not bound to the traditions.
4) I don't see you avoiding Pork.
5) You missed St. Paul in Galatians 5.
6) This type of thinking is one of the bigger problems the modern Church has. You've missed the Forest for pine cones.

Blogger VD March 25, 2018 9:08 AM  

I have yet to see any alt-right or Christian writers anywhere touch on this point.

Then you have not been paying attention. Stop posing. People here see right through that nonsense.

Blogger Sherwood family March 25, 2018 9:11 AM  

Parliamentary democracy is the fruit of a society that already has figured out concepts like justice, order, obedience, authority, law, exactness, honor, fortitude, strength, and virtue. Parliamentary democracy is not the seed of these things.

To believe, as many did in the lead up to our excellent Iraq adventure, that one could have the fruit without planting and nurturing the tree is to get things completely backwards. I am ashamed to admit that I am among those who did.

Anonymous Anonymous March 25, 2018 9:13 AM  

@20 Looking Glass

I'm just hoping he isn't playing the role of Pompey.

Blogger Laramie Hirsch March 25, 2018 9:14 AM  

Here is an account of Rome's troubles from St. Jerome in a letter to Principia:

"Whilst these things were happening in Jebus a dreadful rumour came from the West. Rome had been besieged and its citizens had been forced to buy their lives with gold. Then thus despoiled they had been besieged again so as to lose not their substance only but their lives. My voice sticks in my throat; and, as I dictate, sobs choke my utterance. The City which had taken the whole world was itself taken; nay more famine was beforehand with the sword and but few citizens were left to be made captives. In their frenzy the starving people had recourse to hideous food; and tore each other limb from limb that they might have flesh to eat. Even the mother did not spare the babe at her breast. In the night was Moab taken, in the night did her wall fall down. "O God, the heathen have come into thine inheritance; thy holy temple have they defiled; they have made Jerusalem an orchard.The dead bodies of thy servants have they given to be meat unto the fowls of the heaven, the flesh of thy saints unto the beasts of the earth. Their blood have they shed like water round about Jerusalem; and there was none to bury them."

Blogger Laramie Hirsch March 25, 2018 9:17 AM  


Uh, Gary...Alt-Right-ish Traditional Catholic here. I'm always talking about what you're saying on my blog. There are Red Pilled Christians out here saying that sort of stuff.

Blogger Sherwood family March 25, 2018 9:19 AM  

Gary, no one is enjoining anyone to sit and whinge. In case you hadn't noticed this blog is run by someone who puts his money where his mouth is and actually creates things. And he has pointed to each of us and said, in essence, "Go and do thou likewise."

I do agree, though, that we must all strive to keep the commandments of God and to not shirk in our duty, however unpleasant it may turn out to be. Jesus did say, "If ye love me, keep my commandments." That ought to be enough to be going on with.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan March 25, 2018 9:19 AM  

Gary I have for decades read and heard bible verses and yes it is noble posturing as for you individually I hope you have your house in order but I doubt you coming here and quoting bible verses is any better than the losercons who have postured nobly and lost for decades, no strategic vision and sure as hell no operational art.

Gents in light of the piece linked to are we pro-wall, anti-wall or agnostic about the wall? See GE's morning tweet about building the WALL.

Blogger Laramie Hirsch March 25, 2018 9:21 AM  

Just found more from St. Jerome about the condition of Rome.

"In a slander-loving community such as Rome, filled as it formerly was with people from all parts and bearing the palm for wickedness of all kinds, detraction assailed the upright and strove to defile even the pure and the clean. In such an atmosphere it is hard to escape from the breath of calumny. A stainless reputation is difficult nay almost impossible to attain; the prophet yearns for it but hardly hopes to win it: "Blessed," he says, "are the undefiled in the way who walk in the law of the Lord."

Blogger Looking Glass March 25, 2018 9:22 AM  

@36 phenixrising16

Ain't no one around as skillful as Caesar, so I don't think we get there. Though maybe it is Trump that'll need to cross the Rubicon. (Though, somehow, I also don't think the US Congress is even as bright as the ancient Roman Senate.)

@38 Gary

"Look out for the dogs, look out for the evildoers, look out for those who mutilate the flesh." Philippians 3:2 ESV

There's a reason no one has talked about restoring the Church in the terms you're putting forward.

Anonymous Anonymous March 25, 2018 9:23 AM  

It is interesting that President Obama is given so much credit or blame.

He was little more than a puppet. A symptom, rather than a cause. To the Globalists, he was only barely worth more alive than as a dead martyr. That only because he did exactly what they wanted. He was little more than a 'House Slave', in a very nice house.

Given this; it's no wonder he spent so much time golfing.


Blogger Unknown March 25, 2018 9:26 AM  

Yes, that always was an excellent essay.

I'm wonder if you're familiar with John Michael Greer's theory of 'Catabolic Collapse'

His approach pretty much completely ignores demographic issues, which is ridiculous to say the least, but he makes a good case that our civilization has a lot of momentum going against it even if we managed to tackle that most pressing issue...

While the invasion into the west is the clearest and most immediate threat, it seems important to know just how serious our predicament is so we can accurately choose what/who is worth fighting for, and how we are to go about it...

Some more points on the topic:

Blogger Laramie Hirsch March 25, 2018 9:28 AM  

More from St. Jerome. This little bit mentions the sack of Rome by Alaric in 410:

he world sinks into ruin: yes! but shameful to say our sins still live and flourish. The renowned city, the capital of the Roman Empire, is swallowed up in one tremendous fire; and there is no part of the earth where Romans are not in exile. Churches once held sacred are now but heaps of dust and ashes; and yet we have our minds set on the desire of gain. We live as though we are going to die tomorrow; yet we build as though we are going to live always in this world.

Is anyone as intrigued by these nuggets as I am? Or am I just taking up space here?

Anonymous Anonymous March 25, 2018 9:28 AM  

Gary, you sound like a Jehovah's Witness.

Blogger VD March 25, 2018 9:36 AM  

You're banned and spammed, Gary. Go away now. You are not permitted to comment here.

Blogger Stan Dane March 25, 2018 9:38 AM  

Long time lurker. Wow. I'll be archiving this post and the comments. Very significant stuff. I have some major reading cut out for me now. I thank you Vox and the regular core contributors of this blog. I learn so much from you.

Blogger VD March 25, 2018 9:38 AM  

Gents in light of the piece linked to are we pro-wall, anti-wall or agnostic about the wall? See GE's morning tweet about building the WALL.

We are pro-wall. Pro Big Beautiful Wall. Ten feet taller, in fact.

Blogger Dark Herald March 25, 2018 9:44 AM  


Do you regard the fall of the Western Roman Empire as an example of failed civic nationalism?

Blogger VD March 25, 2018 9:46 AM  

Do you regard the fall of the Western Roman Empire as an example of failed civic nationalism?

No, although the idea merits consideration.

Blogger Jack Ward March 25, 2018 9:47 AM  


"Westerners either need an unlikely champion who is the optimal combination of Charles Martel and Pol Pot or we need to think in terms of preserving knowledge for the future instead of preventing that which our fellow Westerners will never be able to accept or understand until it is too late."

Thus Infogalactic? If we had a truly hard man with the vison of a Charles Martel, would we let him be the 'hammer' or let the media and deep state destroy him. Maybe Trump is trying to be a gentle Martel. Eventually, he will probably have to understand just what being an effective 'hammer' really means. It won't be pretty. If you love a decent civilization then embrace the unlovely aspects of civilizational salvation. As the special forces might say, 'embrace the suck'
God bless us all; we will need all the help available.
Now, to go an read the comments this post and see if others have already said what I just did. [probably]

Blogger tz March 25, 2018 9:49 AM  

It will be hard enough to preserve our lives, families and race(s), saving knowledge is going to be much harder in the age of the Kindle which is doubly broken since it not only requires complex electronics, but with the DRM has to be online.
I can reconstruct analog (vinyl record) players, but not anything digital.
The collapse will be like the old quip about bankruptcy - first very slowly, then very quickly.
But the rot is now at the base. The Founding Fathers understood that individual citizens and families were the center and that power was granted to increasing circles - the village council and constable, then county and province, then the "king/parliment" and nation.
Is there a non-mixed race (hetero) couple on TV? Do they have children taught to be citizens with civic virtues? Does anyone including non-churchian Christians talk about even options to reject no-fault divorce (see the encyclical Arcanum from a century ago).
The original authority in any successful culture is the Father as head, even the Pater Familias of Pagan Rome. That is the first example of lawful though fallen Authority in natural law. Children learn by copying the template. Boys either form into noble men or feral rogues. Girls either find their place inside that protection and provision, or realize it is hard but might choose to go outside, but here the Mothers give the example where they are happy running the home.
Then there's debt. Excepting things like 20% down home mortgages, our grandparents would be shocked at the casual acceptance of Usury.
The world is morally, spiritually, and financially bankrupt (just calculate the pensions, if not the actual debt).

Also don't forget that God is in control, his Providence has already prepared things, and nothing is impossible with him. From my spiritual perspective, there is a migration happening and it is very subtle, but you can see it. Away from the cultural marxism - blue is getting bluer, and red is getting redder. The still small voice is calling people out of Babylon and Sodom to a promised land. If there is a problem with Churchians, it is they expect God's promises to be fulfilled in Sodom. And remember the Jews belonged in their promised land, not Egypt, but even rejected Moses and many wanted to go back to Egypt and slavery. I see that coming if it isn't already here.
Christians are enslaved to the tech companies that hate them. They send their children to cultural marxist government indoctrination centers. They have quality time, careers, and one more car instead of one more kid. But God says to try obeying and trusting him and he will show you, often quietly. Your real purpose is to fulfill his purpose for you, but you might need to break with "good" hedonism and materialism.

Blogger JaimeInTexas March 25, 2018 9:49 AM  

Another very good post, VD.

I saw Gray's posts too late. My reaction was, Gary? Again? Good grief! We had a few rounds on his keeping of the ceremonial and dietary laws.

Blogger Duke Norfolk March 25, 2018 9:54 AM  

VD wrote:There are three significant dates: 1861, 1913, and 1965. The combination of those three events are what sufficed to end America. There are other dates of significance, but those are the three primary nexuses.

Yep, arguably all else are merely symptoms.

And of course there's the very root cause of Evil.

Blogger JaimeInTexas March 25, 2018 9:55 AM  

VD, you do not consider ratification of the new Constitution in 1788 significant enough to be listed? It set up for 1861.

Blogger VD March 25, 2018 9:59 AM  

Thus Infogalactic?

Precisely. Do you really think we couldn't have done something simple like Gab? That was flashier and of more immediate interest to people, but of zero import culturally or historically. Why do you think we called it the Planetary Knowledge Core?

Humanity may need it in the future. It may be the Alexandria of tomorrow, because the Blank Slatists at Wikipedia won't hesitate to eliminate history if it impedes their ideological goals.

Blogger Duke Norfolk March 25, 2018 9:59 AM  

The Pepe report wrote:Christianity in the USA is still pretty strong though there is some persecution

Well, I would argue that true Christianity is indeed persecuted. It is only Churchianity and "Judeo-Christianity" that are tolerated and even celebrated.

The reactions to true Christianity is like the vampire's to a cross. Funny that.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd March 25, 2018 10:00 AM  

Gary wrote:My point was, if we sit and whinge about the collapse, but do not turn back to the laws, commands and ways of Jehovah, we will never see our nations saved.

Want to be a fundamentalist? Here's your fundament:

Matthew 22:35-40 King James Version (KJV)
35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Love God, love your neighbor. That's the whole of your law.

Blogger Solas March 25, 2018 10:06 AM  

Even Christ's millennial kingdom comes under assault by the barbarians of that future time. This process is very near unstoppable.

Anonymous Anonymous March 25, 2018 10:09 AM  

"The tragedy of the cassandra is that he has the ability to see the collapse coming, but no ability to do anything to stop it. I have been able to see the collapse of the USA coming since 1995, once the implications of the 1986 immigration amnesty became clear to me, but even I had no idea until fairly recently that this inevitable collapse was likely to be part of a larger civilization-wide event. It's not merely the USA that is in bad shape, but the secondary powers of China, Russia, and Europe as well."

I first became aware that western civilization was done in 1975, which was the year after I married. We both expected total collapse before we were gone. (say by the time we were 70 --- still a few years off)

In my mind, I saw the welfare state of LBJ as the signal we were done as a functioning society. Then, after Reagan punted on immigration I knew the USA was done. I did not think of Europe much since I knew they were well ahead of the US on the way to perdition.

There was no satisfaction in being right. I have often prayed to God that I am wrong. I still pray that my tribe (Scotch-Irish)will live though these evil times to keep our way of life alive. But God will do whatever his plan is.

Anonymous Anonymous March 25, 2018 10:15 AM  

Using the Roman Empire as an analogy for America can be fun but is utterly useless.

For Roman analogies to make any sense, numerous particular circumstances have to obtain. Here are a few:

1) A plague has to be endemic, with occasional catastrophic flare-ups - such as occurred during Marcus Aurelius’ reign and half century thereafter. This will serve to depopulate vast swathes of country and generally destabilise society (This, of course, could still happen).

2) America’s military hegemony has to end at its borders, or near hinterlands.

3) America’s military has to fight much its wars against itself, on a regular basis.

4) Canada (or Mexico) has to be as powerful as the US.

5) Birthrates must be static or in decline.

6) The economy must be agrarian and static with little, if any, technological innovation. At least a third of the population must be slaves.

7) Society must be organised vertically, with no middle class. Most of the population must be reliant on the patronage of a minute ruling elite. Executive power must be indistinguishable from personal power

and so on. You get the picture.

Blogger Garuna March 25, 2018 10:19 AM  

Vox, do you think Trump will ultimately be remembered as a great President? Aside from a few hiccups, I see him as the greatest US president in modern history. Particularly in foreign policy, where just one year in, he is competing for all time great status. But almost nobody seems to talk about his successes or even understands them. Just endless whining about "muh offensive muh properness blah blah blah".

Blogger Salt March 25, 2018 10:21 AM  

The scope of the problem today is probably way worse than what Rome suffered. I doubt Rome's food supply was Corporately run versus the family farm and, with today's various population densities, it could well be epic once a major disruption to the ~ 3 day requirement on the transportation sector is experienced.

Anonymous Anonymous March 25, 2018 10:24 AM  

@61 bohm64

There are enough similarities. It doesn't have to be an exact match. Remember, history doesn't repeat, but it does tend to rhyme.

Blogger Karl March 25, 2018 10:32 AM  

somewhat OT but interesting, how the Chinese government is using systems theory for social control (and ultimately to prevent the civilizational collapse discussed by Bardi/Tainter). I think they believe in the 2nd point below - more complex societies need more complex controls, hence the social credit system.

The problem is, and Bardi is talking about Joseph Tainter's point, there are still overall limits to the complexity of control simply because you run into resource constraints. Computerization facilitates the idea that you can supersede these limits, but ultimately you using AI/algo/etc to amp up social control fragilizes the system even more, which is what I believe Vox is discussing with the 3 key dates.

The Chinese think they can engineer their way out of social problems. I wouldn't be so optimistic, in the longer run. I think our elite in the U.S. would be happy to jerry-rig a similar system using Facebook etc. if they could. But being in a "diverse" society thanks to mass immigration makes social controls much harder to implement.


In the West, systems engineering's heyday has long passed. But in China, the discipline is deeply integrated into national planning. The city of Wuhan is preparing to host in August the International Conference on Control Science and Systems Engineering, which focuses on topics such as autonomous transportation and the "control analysis of social and human systems."

In an accessible treatment of this concept, John Casti (2012) adapted Ashby’s law of requisite variety to assert that a control mechanism must be at least as complex as the system it controls. Thus, as the complexity of society increases, the complexity of the control system must increase as well to maintain stability.

Blogger pyrrhus March 25, 2018 10:34 AM  

There has been quite a bit of mathematical work on depletion curves for conventional oil production, which turn out to also describe the growth, peaking, and decline of many other processes, including human societies. Applying this math to the modern world predicts a peak population sometime in the mid 21st century, followed by a decline for more than two centuries, ending with a quite small population around 2300. This is pretty much what happened to Rome, which went from a huge population to being virtually depopulated at the end...

Blogger pyrrhus March 25, 2018 10:37 AM  

Trump's talk of building a "Space Force" is right up there as far as expensive structures that will not work and will hasten the decline, but 'global warming' is a perfect example of the disfunction that attends late societal collapse.

Blogger peacefulposter March 25, 2018 10:42 AM  

@58 - Love God, love your neighbor. That's the whole of your law.

"Love your neighbor" has been (((twisted))) to mean "invite the whole f-ing Third World to your dinner table."

Blogger Hammerli 280 March 25, 2018 10:43 AM  

Dr. Pournelle was fond of reminding us that despair is a sin. And I refuse to surrender to it.

I estimate that the hard Not-Americans make up no more than 30% of the population. True Americans around 45%. The key is persuading the fence-sitters. And the Left is doing a marvelous job of that for us. They've made it clear that the Left's fondest dream is a totalitarian bloodbath.

Not to mention that the fighting spirit of the Alt-Right is spreading. If we can add some staying power to it, the Left will be crushed.

Victory is possible, as long as we don't surrender to despair.

Anonymous Anonymous March 25, 2018 10:45 AM  


I prefer Julian Barnes' take on it: 'history just burps and we taste again that raw-onion sandwich it swallowed centuries ago'.

Blogger Crew March 25, 2018 10:48 AM  

Some conspiracy theorists claim that some are ready for civilization collapse:

Blogger Phelps March 25, 2018 10:50 AM  


1) Just a matter of time.

2) Already begun, in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Syria.

3) Already begun, Afghanistan and Syria.

4) Who is running US policy, the US or Mexico?

5) Undeniably already done.

6) Done, with illegals and welfarites as the slaves.

7) On the way, with technological stratification and income inequality continuing.

Blogger Unknown March 25, 2018 10:51 AM  

Spengler's model might be worth a look for anyone who isn't familiar with it:

Of course its better to read 'The Decline of the West', but the charts there give a decent idea of his view.

Greer's argument that urbanism itself is at the root of things is interesting as well:

I'm sure you've all seen the county by county maps of the past view elections...

Blogger FUBARwest March 25, 2018 11:00 AM  

Slightly OT but I would suggest you watching the movie Network from 1976. It's a movie that is talking about globalism and international corporatism as well as the decline of the USA. It's amazing to me that it came out of Hollywood AND that it was made only a decade after 1965. It's doing exactly what Ugo Bardi talks about here.

It's going to be regarded in the same way as the words put down by people living during the fall of Rome.

Blogger Joe March 25, 2018 11:03 AM  

"This also explains why the globalists feel fully justified in their Neo-Babelism. They believe that they are constructing a new civilization that will rise from the ashes of the old one, a secular Byzantium to Christendom's Rome. That is why the phoenix is one of their favorite symbols. "

Indeed they do. They're stupid like a fox. The chaos they wrought is by design. Stupidity and ineptitude is camouflage for their evil.

Blogger Dark Herald March 25, 2018 11:03 AM  

VD wrote:Do you regard the fall of the Western Roman Empire as an example of failed civic nationalism?

No, although the idea merits consideration.

Admittedly, a one to one comparison doesn't work well. There was no delineation between civil and religious functions in their government for one thing. And what we would view as graft and corruption, they viewed as a right, indeed even a duty of their governors for another.

However, a lot of their failure can be blamed the expansion of their citizenship rolls to peoples with no real stake in being Roman citizens other than the convenience of legal rights and privileges... And not being whipped anymore if you were a slave imported from Gaul.

Blogger Dark Herald March 25, 2018 11:10 AM  


And not being whipped anymore if you were a slave imported from Gaul.

And places other than Gaul for that matter.

From my review of the Amazon series Britannia.

And if Black Romans are a surprise then you haven't been paying attention.

I will freely grant that there were sub-Saharan ethnic Negroes who were Roman citizens but there was no drive to get them on the citizenship rolls, it was freaking rare. Africa has been the Arabs one stop shop for slaves since forever but they stayed local. Long range transportation of slaves wasn't viable because of deaths in transit. A couple hundred miles was about it. But lets say that a sub-Saharan African gets imported to Rome for the games as an exotic. He survives his thirty bouts and is freed. At that point he is freedman with rather limited rights. Now his son would be a Roman citizen with full rights. and yes he could join the legions. However, it was pretty unusual.

There were three of them in this show. One of them with ritual African face scaring and he becomes the second in command of whole expedition.

As I said they chucked the history books on this one. However, I will grudgingly grant that there was one point in the show where I almost forgave it. When the Druids had captured the Black Roman Antonius and Veren was perched like a carrion eater on his chest and looking at his eyeballs with a little too much interest. Veren said, "you were praying to Mars when we found you but you have a secret protector don't you? One that you aren't supposed to pray to anymore. What is his name?"

Antonius, "Bomaza." Saying the name against his will

"You will now pray to Bomaza to forsake your soul."

I admit it. It kind of worked for me.

Blogger Unknown March 25, 2018 11:18 AM  

Regarding 'mathematical work on depletion curves' pyrrhus is talking about, a few more links:

The data from the whaling industry is particularly interesting. Chaotic price swings rather than one giant spike and everything going apocalyptic there after(a belief that came to define the peak-oil crowd).

It seems some more of that chaos isn't too far off either:

Blogger Crew March 25, 2018 11:19 AM  

The collapse of civilization will likely achieve Kim Stanley Robinson's goal:

Emptying half the planet of people.

Blogger Crew March 25, 2018 11:20 AM  

@78: Wow. Peak Oil Idiocy again!

Blogger Crush Limbraw March 25, 2018 11:39 AM  

Wow - this insightful post will be in the top 5 of my almost 3 year old archive - along with Codevilla and others - and will be referred to often.
The most difficult thing for most of us folks to relate to is the slow steady pace of historical events - all as clear cause and effect for those who have eyes to see - when we can only see the last election or omnibus bill passed. Hell, it took at least three fourths of my lifetime to begin to see WTF was going in this world - and thank God for that!
Keep cranking, Vox!

Blogger Jack Ward March 25, 2018 11:41 AM  

"Skin in the game' the idea.
A possible start. We have 60 million plus 'invaders' in our midst. Most are a net drain on the system paying few if any taxes to support this golden goose they have latched onto.
The idea of a consumption tax, the Fair Tax, much talked of in the day by a representative and a popular 'conservative' talk show host in Atlanta. Properly implemented all the invaders will pay something of their fair share. Would be much whining and recriminations by many, but, would have all those that free load the system get some game skin.

Blogger Johnny March 25, 2018 11:53 AM  

Salt wrote:I doubt Rome's food supply was Corporately run versus the family farm

Rome was fed by Egypt. Even after the fall of the empire food commerce kept up to some extent and was not fully shut down until the rise of Islam.

US farming is now so large scale that the family farm concept is largely gone, and that is whether or not the owner has chosen to incorporate his business enterprise. If the economy would break down I can only imagine mass starvation.

Anonymous Anonymous March 25, 2018 11:54 AM  

@69 Hammerli280

Deus volent.

@70 bohm64

Points for that one. Which reminds me, it's lunchtime.

Blogger justaguy March 25, 2018 11:58 AM  

So VD, if you see the fall coming, why do you still blame the BB so much. Reagan stopped the decline for a few decades and we will see if MAGA Trump can give us a few more. I see each generation falling more and more under the spell of the statist ideology as the culture is slowly destroyed. Each generation becomes more barbarian and susceptible to the statist influence. Yes the civil war was a big point, as was the 1880s, and certainly 1930s.

Blogger Johnny March 25, 2018 12:01 PM  

My take is that in the early period when the city of Rome was in good working order, the functional ethic could be called either tribalism or civic nationalism, and was probably a little of both. Tribal because it involved that more primitive form of race, which was tribal identity.

Eventually it all became a money machine. The troops were not free to just quit, they were locked in, but payment of money became an important incentive. The military kept down rebellions, functioned as a kind of crude police force, and kept the barbarians at bay.

The use of money was part of a more sophisticated social system than in use by the barbarians that the army kept out. The system had more division of labor, more commerce, and something that at least resembled law enforcement that went beyond mere decree by the king or summary judgment by a potentate.

The fall of the empire was not so much the fall of an empire as the collapse of a social system. As for why, what is thought to be true here is that the fall came as a result of simple corruption. Eventually too much of the money raised from the productive went into the hands of the non productive. Most of was probably diverted to self use by the elite, rather than excess handouts to the masses. Shades of the way we are right now.

Blogger Jack Ward March 25, 2018 12:04 PM  


The Amish might do ok. Until the hordes come for their food, women and mules. One thing helpful would be national laws that promoted the small farmers, business people; in general diversify. And, I don't mean more ethic diversity. Sure, you can give big industry some of their breaks but darn well be sure that you have some backup to counter high government screw-ups trying to manage a complex system. Think here a lot more of Amish simplistic approach to life. A simple set of laws state and federal, much lower taxes, for small business owners and small to medium farming efforts. One thing that had to have helped kill off Rome was the crushing taxes. People taxed mostly to death and not having the equivalent 2A to counter the monster making up the rules, most would and did lose any patriotism and interest in maintaining any kind of state.

Blogger Crew March 25, 2018 12:09 PM  

@82: Better to get rid of them.

If they also have to pay for the means of their return to their native soil, all the better!

Blogger Jack Ward March 25, 2018 12:12 PM  

Something to remember is that the Eastern Roman empire was well on its way to regaining the Roman west when devastating plague weakened it to the point that Islam began to have its day. What the world if ERE and a rebuilt WRE had become the dominant world power. Someone ought to write an alternate history novel...
And, what if the great library at Alexandria had not been destroyed? More novels....This last thought leads to another comment...

Blogger Ominous Cowherd March 25, 2018 12:20 PM  

Peaceful Poster wrote:@58 - Love God, love your neighbor. That's the whole of your law.

"Love your neighbor" has been (((twisted))) to mean "invite the whole f-ing Third World to your dinner table."

Jesus said it, Satan twists it ... cucks like the recently banned one would rather listen to lies.

Blogger Crew March 25, 2018 12:20 PM  

@89: What fraction of the population could read back then?

What fraction of NAMs can read and understand today?

Indeed, I suspect that probably less than 50% of whites can read and actually understand.

Blogger Johnny March 25, 2018 12:24 PM  


If the United States got "neutron bombed," all the electronics killed, the estimate is that 90% of the population would die off. I think that is about right. I am guessing that shortages that arise from a simple breakdown in commerce would do way more damage than mob like or violent behavior. Be armed, but don't start treating that weapon like a security blanket. For myself, I am more self reliant than most, but lacking electricity I would not last long.

Blogger dienw March 25, 2018 12:25 PM  

VD wrote:he made them look bad to non-conservatives.

The primary fear of every conservative. That is why they are so totally useless. They are cowards to the core, unmanned by the mere possibility of being called names.


This is the core of the conservative reaction to McCarthy. I attempted to explain this to a conservative saying that there were more presentable, less crude conservatives who could have shouldered the burden and taken on the responsibility, no, the duty to take on the Communist infiltration of the government; instead, thee better positioned refused the responsibility then moaned and complained and withdrew when "crude and drunken" McCarthy stepped up to the plate. Chambers in his book Witness declared that McCarthy was correct but "too crude" to be the man to perform the exposure of Communist infiltration.

Then Buckley shows up a couple years later to drive the real conservatives out of the movement and the subject of the Communist infiltration is softened to pro-communist liberals vs anti-communist liberals: McCarthy is allowed to become a leftist byword.

Blogger VD March 25, 2018 12:31 PM  

So VD, if you see the fall coming, why do you still blame the BB so much.

Because they were the generation who most enthusiastically embraced the decline. Rather than doing anything to try to stop it, they threw themselves headlong into every aspect of it.

Also because I had to listen to the societally destructive morons boast incessantly about how they changed the world. Now suddenly you don't want credit for having done so?

Too bad. You changed it. And you changed it for the worse. That being said, Trump is a Baby Boomer and perhaps he can do something to mitigate some of the damage caused by his g-g-generation.

Blogger Johnny March 25, 2018 12:40 PM  

Karl wrote:The city of Wuhan is preparing to host in August the International Conference on Control Science and Systems Engineering, which focuses on topics such as autonomous transportation and the "control analysis of social and human systems."

I regard this whole line of thinking as either miss focused or fraudulent. The core problem is not efficiency of administration, but self dealing by the administrators. What the Chinese leadership is not going to be able to avoid is the administrators governing society to their own benefit. Naturally the intellectual leadership is not going to address this, because it would take the fickle finger of blame and point it right back at them. The self presume themselves pure by imagining that the core problems are technical in nature, thus overlooking self interested administration.

Blogger Crush Limbraw March 25, 2018 12:41 PM  

The destruction of the ‘American Way’ accelerated under my watch – and yours, if you’re anywhere my age – so let’s fess up – we were part of the problem. How so? We let a bunch of ‘developmentally arrested’ adolescent know nothings take over the entire culture and country – every institution you can name is run by so-called liberals (fascists is a better word). It took them over 100 years, but let’s face it – they are in charge and they are not bashful about telling us that they are.
And I am older than DaBB'ers!

Blogger Jack Ward March 25, 2018 12:43 PM  

Infogalactic. A shining gem in the making if ever one.
Taleb might wonder of the fragile nature of Infogalactic. I do too. By this I mean if the net falls, if the nut cases figure a way to 'delete' it or water down its messages. Technically, how do you preserve the core of knowledge? Sure, the encyclopedia scholars had their remote planet. Where is our remote location? Do we need a loyal 300, or more, to protect the treasure? How to implement something? Not sure hard drive backups, multiple in multiple locations would work well in the long run. The moderators might become corrupt. Vox isn't going to live forever; though, I wish he could. We have had Qumran scrolls that have come down thru history with mixed results. There was a novel 'Sunbird' by some South African, think it was Wilbur Smith, that touched on this. In among a bunch of fragile scrolls located in modern day Africa was one done on a long strip of hammered out gold. This one scroll held the thoughts and poetry of a warrior hunchback afflicted, second in command, sort of, of an African sliver civilization offshoot of remnants of the fall of Carthage, that, being a good man, tried to prevent the fall of his civilization. A book worth reading, by the way. Huy ben Amon failed, dying in the attempt, to save his land but left his writings on imperishable gold.
What gold for Infogalactic?

Blogger Robert What? March 25, 2018 12:44 PM  

The hatred of the (((elite))) for White Christians knows no bounds. They are willing to do anything to destroy them even if it means their own destruction as well.

Blogger Latigo3 March 25, 2018 12:50 PM  

Thank you Vox. This is one of the best posts I have read in a long time. It gives me more understanding on what I see happening in my own city of Los Angeles.

Blogger Arthur Isaac March 25, 2018 12:53 PM  

On the 0bama thing, I've explained to friends that he was like the fruiting body of a mold. By the time you see him you know the load is riddled with mycellium. You say when you see the green spot, "oh my bread is moldy" but in actual fact it has been moldy.

Blogger Arthur Isaac March 25, 2018 12:55 PM  

Of course the same could be said of Teddy or Franklin Roosevelt.

Blogger Shannon March 25, 2018 1:03 PM  

A wall that keeps Them out can keep Us in.

Blogger Jack Amok March 25, 2018 1:04 PM  

I wonder about the author of Of matters of war. He proposed unworkable ideas, but maybe he realized they were unworkable. Maybe he was just trying to appease his own restless mind that didn't want to accept defeat.

I know what we have to do to avoid collapse. But sort of like the ox-powered war galley, I don't really know how to make it work. I know what we have to do. I don't know how to get us to do it.

Blogger DonReynolds March 25, 2018 1:19 PM  

Very good, Vox.
There is nothing new about the New World Order and the society they are determined to create is feudalism.

You are absolutely correct. The major challenge for an advanced society is how to STORE knowledge, so it can be recovered later. For very long cycles, this is an important element. Societies that could recover knowledge many years later had a distinct advantage over those who could not. The longer the cycle, the more important this aspect.

During the Kondratieff cycle (50) years, the impact of a depression may be limited to one or two generations and it was possible to recover BECAUSE there were people alive and books available to re-learn the knowledge that was lost.

During the Sjoberg cycle (800) years, where the Dark Ages persist for 500 years, a great deal of knowledge is lost in absolute terms. Even the monastic tradition of the Church was unable to preserve much of what had been known. (It clearly had the will and the patience but not the source documents or the people or inclination to preserve much of what was known.)

The broad sweep of humanity (the masses) may not have any understanding of what is happening and in a relatively short time they become accustomed to the "new normal". Will people retain their native intelligence when much of their knowledge is taken away or lost? We shall see, but I expect there will always be a few with a talent for genius. The question will always be whether that talent is used to make themselves wealthy or whether it will be devoted to loftier ambitions.

Blogger VD March 25, 2018 1:24 PM  

A wall that keeps Them out can keep Us in.

So what? Where are you going to go? You have nowhere left to run.

Anonymous Anonymous March 25, 2018 1:25 PM  

A man to add to the consideration of the Roman writers during the collapse is Boethius, who was born just following the fall of the final Western Roman emperor in 480. While Roman civilization hadn't completely collapsed yet, he obviously knew it was rapidly disintegrating and attempted to preserve what he could of the knowledge of antiquity.

1803 is also a date that spelled trouble for the USA long term.

Absent divine intervention, Western civilization is doomed. It isn't even so much the prospect of a civil war but just the fact that virtually every place of any size is dependent upon imports for survival, whether from foreign or domestic sources. Water, food, power, fuel, clothing, technology, all rely on domestic and thanks to the idiocy of outsourcing now often foreign tranquility to keep things going, especially in the cities.

Most millennials have no clue about the logistics of how things work and are going to be dumbfounded and useless if modern conveniences like their phones stop working. Hence the need to preserve knowledge - not just on Infogalactic but also real books.

Blogger VD March 25, 2018 1:26 PM  

Craig/Pepe, if you don't stop commenting here, I'm going to post all of your various apologies, in succession, promising not to comment here anymore.

Go away already. You are not permitted to comment here. I will spam you if you can't control yourself.

It's not that fucking hard.

Blogger Dangeresque March 25, 2018 1:27 PM  

As far as the greater collapse is concerned, Obama didn't move the needle one way or the other much if at all. What he did do though is inadvertently wake up tons of white people to reality. So many of them expected the magical negro trope to proceed to play itself out, but what they got were multiple iterations of: Black man shot by police -> The media with Obama's tacit approval spins it as an extrajudicial execution of a completely innocent - in fact upstanding! - person -> BLM riots destroy the entire town -> Facts come out later that it was completely justified and the person was just another a low-life thug with a mile long rap sheet.

After that, so many white people, even liberals that I know, even if only silently, went "Oh... So that's how this is gonna go?"

Blogger DonReynolds March 25, 2018 1:49 PM  

Johnny wrote:@87

If the United States got "neutron bombed," all the electronics killed, the estimate is that 90% of the population would die off. I think that is about right. I am guessing that shortages that arise from a simple breakdown in commerce would do way more damage than mob like or violent behavior. Be armed, but don't start treating that weapon like a security blanket. For myself, I am more self reliant than most, but lacking electricity I would not last long.

Unless you are ventilator patient or on 100 percent oxygen, you could live the rest of your life without the benefit of electricity. Electric service was only extended to the city of Austin, Texas, less than a century ago and there was considerable opposition! The main selling point in Austin was so that they could have electric street cars, like Houston. I have known people (including relatives) who never had electric service in their homes.

The immediate danger for many people will be the lack of drinking water. Food is easy by comparison. You can get food, but if your drinking water makes you sick, your problems could be over in hours and days. You can go weeks without eating.

We have seen the aftermath of very serious hurricanes that completely disrupted the "normal" functioning of society over wide regions of this country for months at a time. I can even show you some places that STILL have not recovered from hurricane damage. No, they were never rebuilt and remain uninhabited.

Nuclear war remains a big unknown because it has never happened. Two cities in Japan were destroyed by nukes but both have been rebuilt and still exist today as major cities. The point being that nuclear weapons will have targets and everywhere will not be a target. There will be many people who not be anywhere near a nuclear blast. The USA is a very big place.

Blogger Crush Limbraw March 25, 2018 1:53 PM  

If you ask me, the primary culprits in this whole affair are those who were given the commission to 'go and make disciples of all nations....and teach them all things I have commanded you and I will be with you to the end of the age'.

Talk about mission failure! But how and when and is it over? If so, then Jesus lied.

The first 1500+ some years were a steady march for Christendom. I estimate the last 200 years seem to have regressed into spiritual navel gazing.

So now what?

It ain't over 'til it's over - and it ain't!

As Vox clearly states - over and over again - this fight is just beginning - the trend is gaining strength - the new tower of Babel will self destruct and the Great Commission will be completed with you or without you!

So choose wisely who you will follow!

Blogger Skylark Thibedeau March 25, 2018 1:54 PM  

Trump isn't Marius. Marius tried to allow non Roman Italians citizenship so that they could join the legions. He also instituted the practice of giving land to retired legionaries and freeing Roman and Italian debt slaves so the could be recruited to fight the Germans.

He's not Sulla. Nulla was an instrument of the Elite and tried to keep the swamp filled and maintain the power of the Patrician class.

I think the Empire will trudge along til La Raza has enough votes in the Southwest to kick the (((Democrats))) out of office. The new nation of Atzlan and the Remnants of the U.S. will have a prolonged period of War with the major cities collapsing as food is disrupted.

America in some form will survive but will be reduced to 1830s size

Blogger Skylark Thibedeau March 25, 2018 2:02 PM  

We would visit my Great Grandfather in Mississippi back when I was a kid. He had no indoor plumbing, no gas, and a couple of jerry rigged outlets for electricity. You had to go to the well in the front yard and draw water and had to use an outhouse.

He grew all his own food though and needed only a few things from town like flour and tobacco. You can live without modern conveniences but these current generations cannot fathom what their great great grandparents took to be normal.

Blogger Allen March 25, 2018 2:14 PM  

Interesting. I see you have also considered a Black Swan result from a Black Swan event. History tell us this is true, but we still don't like to foresee it.

Blogger Aeoli March 25, 2018 2:17 PM  

There are three significant dates: 1861, 1913, and 1965.

Exactly 52 years apart.

Blogger Duke Norfolk March 25, 2018 2:20 PM  

FUBARwest wrote:I would suggest you watching the movie Network from 1976.

Yeah, I may have to watch that again; with a whole new perspective, of course.

Blogger Rantor March 25, 2018 2:22 PM  

Some persecution? We pretend that it doesn’t exist, but it does. In the 1950s they drove God out of the schools. Then they drove God from public discourse. Allowed actors to blaspheme God but they couldn’t say “shit” or worse. Anti-Christ’s ran Hollywood, shaped the culture, killed Kennedy, and launched an effort to embrace sexual sin and perversity. The US succumbed, embraced the anti-Christ and hasn’t looked back.

Blogger tublecane March 25, 2018 2:35 PM  

"or we need to think in terms of preserving knowledge for the future"

In the past I was inspired by an Albert J. Nock essay on what he called "the Remmant." He laid out an analogy to the prophet Isaiah, whom God knew would fail to turn his people back to the faith. Civilization is in decline, there's no real hope, but we can preserve knowledge just in case .That sort of thing.

I briefly considered applying for grad school, but didn't because there wasn't any point. Anyway, the university was going to ask me to write to them on why I wanted to go there, and of course I had no answer. I considered writing about the Remnant, but I figured if I was honest they'd consider me a witch, or something.

That's the value of our repositories of Higher Learning right now.

Blogger FP March 25, 2018 2:38 PM  

zhukovg wrote:Gary, you sound like a Jehovah's Witness.

I read his comment and thought the same thing. Just yesterday morning, on the first Saturday of spring like clockwork I had some JW stop by and stick a pamphlet in my door. Printed in Canada no less.

Blogger Spinning Bowtie March 25, 2018 2:50 PM  

Excellent post!

Something I thought of while reading this - me and the wife look at starting gardens and land for food and decided buckwheat was the way to go (it's very nutrient rich and its mulch reinvigorates soil). I say this to start because think of the current trends that people in the west adopt, even if limited in their full concsiousness.

The return of artisanal trades and the interest in ancient grains. Both of these rely little on fragile systems - the core crop of the US, corn, holds little nutritional value, uses up soil, needs subsidization, etc. Ancient/medieval grains did not - they were grown because of efficiency. Stuff like barley and buckwheat pack a lot of punch and help soils.

Artisanal trades are transferable. Metallurgy and smithing can be used anywhere and can be analog.

Humans have an instinct whether they can articulate it or not - and the sudden drive for concepts like "sustainability" rely on more than just propaganda.

Think also of "Gun Control." Sure, many of them are authoritarian scolds who merely want to control others. But the humans who nod and agree do so out of a fear of the inevitable. People are often symbolic and limited in their thinking - GUNS = VIOLENCE. Their instinct knows of the coming crisis and their limited vision sees that elimination of GUNS! will stop the coming baths.

It's interesting to see how people act on the macro level with regard to small trends...

Blogger Spinning Bowtie March 25, 2018 2:53 PM  

@117 tublecane

Considering that universities are right now one of the biggest agents in civilizational destruction...probably best not to go (outside of engineering or a trade).

Blogger PJW Gent March 25, 2018 2:57 PM  

nhinsnow wrote:...Understanding the consequences when multiple systems interact? Why bother?

To OP's point, however: Do they know what might generally happen? Do they know something is amiss? There's no indication they do, not yet...

I work with a bunch of very smart system engineers who do technology/system readiness assessments of complex projects/programs and assess technological risk and I can say that ACROSS THE BOARD people do not "Understanding the consequences when multiple systems interact" since that takes real labor and intensive thought and would impact their schedule, or their system of thinking, or their view of how things should work.

I can say unequivocally that things are a whole lot worse than you can understand down to the roots of everything done today.

Blogger PJW Gent March 25, 2018 3:08 PM  

Something no one is giving much consideration to when storing things electronically is future access. The current method is to archive the hardware with the memory storage so you can access it when technology changes or use transferable information technologies like html/xml and continually transform the data into new formats as things advance. Well that won't get done as systems can barely keep up with the current data flow and as time goes by the past shrinks to keep up with the available window and only "significant" things get kept (decided by whom?) and as to keeping hardware to access the "old" stuff, that won't work because integrated circuits fail over time due to a metal whisker's problem due to the removal of lead from creation process and the half life of most modern electronics is 3-7 years before they start failing due to the problem ( Sorry about the run-on sentence.

Blogger Spinning Bowtie March 25, 2018 3:14 PM  

And at the macro level, of course we're heading for a very large civilizational transition. A good percentage of the human population right now is legally moronic (sub-70 IQ) and inbred. The Muslim world is something like 30% inbred overall, and third-worlders in general have a lot of inbreeding and neuropathies.

Overall, that would be self correcting through infant mortality, lack of ability (starvation), or war. But right now, the West feeds the idiots and wants to import them. Okay, fine. But genetics doesn't go away.

Think now of the Left - they don't make babies and they also have huge amounts of physical and mental disabilities. They only make symbolic children through education and students.

In the meantime, you have (like the collapsing Western Roman Empire), a large bureaucracy that wants to keep power and keep the party going. Import the barbarians so they keep their power and won't have to fight!

I do believe that Nietzsche was correct in seeing that the 21st century was when we would see the culmination of the Crisis of Nihilism and the onslaught of the Last Man and that it would be a grotesque bloodletting.

But we do have chances and outlets. It's up to us to build and maintain institutions and keep learning and tradition alive. People who create will always create, whether it's art or industry, or agriculture and other people. Those who destroy can only destroy.

Note: The above is why I stopped reading ZMan, reflecting another post from the other day. His fascination with black dudes having sex with the women of the world was odd, but he mistook subsidized reproduction with genetic success. He clearly thinks that nature wants inbred morons to be the future of mankind for some odd reason.

Blogger Brick Hardslab March 25, 2018 3:24 PM  

We are planing on moving back to the area my family comes from. We survived in those mountains for thousands of years. My grandfather was born in a hide tent and taught me what he knew. I'm nowhere as good as he was at most things as he was but I can muddle along until I get better.

We have three families moving with us for sure and maybe two more. I can't see how anyone can live in a city anyway. I think they contribute to mental illness. Seriously.

Blogger Unknown March 25, 2018 3:40 PM  

Brilliant, and thank you. I've read this Bardi essay several times but you gave it a context that eluded me.

A small quibble--if it is even one, largely with Bardi, though. It does seem like the inkling an empire is about to crumble becomes a recognition rather quickly. Plato's take seems about right: at the end stages the tyranny increases and wars become more commonplace to divert attention and energy. This alerts the larger populace. Would Aurelius had apprehended Rome was near collapse if he had lived one more generation? It would seem likely.

Also, those above who wrote this is going to plan absolutely are right. The elites may be more mediocre than in years past but destruction of the West is well-considered and cleverly orchestrated. Their cunning is remarkable.

Blogger Unknown March 25, 2018 4:18 PM  

Excellent post and analysis Vox. I feel like this is a post I can easily share with normies because of how simply it explains history.

Blogger Pointing&Laughing March 25, 2018 4:29 PM  

I don't remember who said it first: "Our barbarians come from within..."

Blogger Brendan March 25, 2018 4:40 PM  

For the love of God and the West, please read Biohistory. Dr Penman outlines the biological factors that precipitate a civilisation collapse and the ever more remote possibility of reversing the decline.

The ebooks are free.

Blogger Johnny March 25, 2018 5:00 PM  

I believe that currently they are puffing up the estimate of the pre Columbian population in the Americas to make the influx of Europeans look as bad as possible. Hey, the more there were the more we killed. Estimates that I regard as reasonable for North America are anything from 2 to 20 million, and it could easily be that half of them were in Mexico owing to the extensive farming in the region.

Just throwing out a number without checking, surely there are now at least 400 million people in North America. If we went to a pre industrial, pre modern society with hunting gathering along with some home garden style farming. the land we live on would support something like 1 to 5 percent of the current population. To get to the carrying capacity of the land, out of every 100 people, something between 95 to 99+ of them would have to die off, and would die off in the transition.

If you really want to get into subsistence living, I recommend Five Acres and Independence. Currently available super cheap at Abe Books and I suppose elsewhere. Written in the 1930's, it doesn't have the new age stuff that might not actually work in practice.

Blogger JaimeInTexas March 25, 2018 5:07 PM  

Quantuum computing, holographic data storage ...

Blogger Johnny March 25, 2018 5:15 PM  

Demonic Professor El wrote:the core crop of the US, corn, holds little nutritional value, uses up soil,

Corn is protein poor but carb rich. I think it was grown mainly for animal feed and alcohol production. The non hybrid varieties were consumed as human in Mexico along with beans which is high protein.

If you are into manual labor farming a variety of crops are needed for reasons of synergy. Because corn comes in ears it is easy to pick. It is a long season crop and is apt to do well when the small grains fail owing to a lack of early summer rain. The different harvest times mean you will have time to do the work. It weeds easy because it grows in hills. And as a mainly carb food it fits in well with a hunting-gathering diet.

Anonymous Anonymous March 25, 2018 5:25 PM  

Very intriguing!

Blogger Rashadjin March 25, 2018 5:31 PM  

@6 dienw & @85 justaguy

Well, if you're a Baby Boomer, then your kingdom will be divided, but more along the lines of between the Americans and Not-Americans, neither of which you belong to anymore.

What has recently struck me is that no matter how respectable or impressive a Baby Boomer or older is, they still have some weird limitation that keeps them separate from Gen X and younger. There is a limit to their ability to achieve that exists even if their achievements are great and continue to be great.

It's like watching Moses wander around in the desert for forty years. Moses was one of the greatest of us, but he still did not see what was to come from his life's work. In that sense, I hazard to suggest that the Baby Boomers are cursed. Faith, which many held and hold, is not enough if it is a passive faith that expects God to do every hard work.

Additionally, I get the sense that Infogalactic and the like will survive in some way. Marxism is a foe that humanity has to defeat, and if we fail, then it'll be reincarnated 800 years into the future for humanity to face again. That feels...unacceptable to the Great Work of History.

Blogger Dangeresque March 25, 2018 7:01 PM  

Aeoli wrote:There are three significant dates: 1861, 1913, and 1965.

Exactly 52 years apart.

1965 + 52 = 2017

Holy shit...

Blogger Johnny March 25, 2018 7:07 PM  

Dangeresque wrote:Aeoli wrote:There are three significant dates: 1861, 1913, and 1965.

Exactly 52 years apart.

1965 + 52 = 2017

Holy shit...

Maybe there is something up here. The driving force in the cycle would be how long it takes for people to forget the last big event. Forget and repeat is the cycle.

Blogger Zeroh Tollrants March 25, 2018 7:22 PM  

This is one area in which I am in full lockstep w/Vox.
We are the same age and the incessant chant of how BB's changed the world was drummed into us from the day we were born. Well, ok. You did change the world, you selfish pr*cks. This mess is on you.
I also find it interesting that you say you realized that things were hitting the skids around 1995, Vox, as that was also the time period when I had that same revelation.
Makes me wonder if there are a lot of us around the same age that came to the same realization at approx the same time & also why then?
Something to think about.

Blogger Crew March 25, 2018 9:07 PM  

70 Million violent, low IQ Africans want to move to the US!

Flamethrowers will be needed ... but Wictor need not apply!

Blogger Crew March 25, 2018 9:35 PM  

@121: When multiple systems interact the failure modes are at least the product of the failure modes of each system.

Anonymous Anonymous March 25, 2018 10:00 PM  

The 1946 Commission on Human Rights was another milestone, serving to codify todays's Progressivism. Having philosophical underpinnings that are easily communicated ("shelter is a human right", etc) gives the Left an enormous advantage - it's a blueprint any agitator can "run with".

Blogger Drew March 25, 2018 10:34 PM  

And the seminaries did not train this generation's evangelical pastors to deal with this crisis. They should have named the enemy of cultural Marxism and showed us how we can identify this enemy and keep him the hell away from any positions of power.

Blogger MB March 25, 2018 11:53 PM  

This is nowhere near the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. It looks to me, rather, like the end of the beginning.
These are just the growing pains of the American (?) Empire. The current struggle is more similar to the civil war that marked the end of the Roman Republic than to the Crisis of the 3rd Century.
On one side are the old families (optimates) and the defenders of the old values (mos maiorum), on the other the demagogues and homines novi who are trying to extend the franchise and bribe their way into power.
At the end of the crisis (which will bring about unparalleled devastation, mostly in Europe I'm guessing, but will be solved relatively soon), the armed forces and secret services will be left as the only relevant institutions.
Whoever can guarantee the soldiers' and policemen's salaries, as well as their continued relevance and importance, will win.
Hopefully the winning side will be the traditionalists (though by the end of the crisis the old alignments will be upended), but eventually the exercise of absolute power will corrupt them, leading in 50-100 years to a new generation of Caligulae, Titi, and Tiberii.
In any case, the inflexible and incorruptible ones may have the same fate as Cato. The more adaptable ones may likely win the battle.
The old institutions won't be abolished, but will wither away. A period of unprecedented peace and prosperity will ensue for 1-2 centuries.
Then the actual crisis will come.
tl;dr: Pessimistic analyses underestimate the present-day US' resilience, the present-day attractiveness of the US ideal, and the attraction of normalcy.

Anonymous Anonymous March 26, 2018 2:55 AM  

The optimistic analyses disregard the fact that the Roman Republic faced only a "crisis of success" when old institutions requiring communal investment into the res publica no longer worked in a nation spoiled by immense wealth and uncontested domination where every political group now acted out of pure self-interest. There was no resource scarcity, indeed the time of the civil wars was also the time of some of the greatest Roman conquests, wealth of plundered nations and exploited provinces kept flowing. The present day US is also simultaneously facing a "crisis of scarcity". Energy is no longer so cheap, and all populations which could be drawn into the global market already are. Standards of living have stopped growing decades ago, and even maintaining them on the current level requires accumulation of debt.

Anonymous Anonymous March 26, 2018 9:28 AM  

The way I see it, the entire Western World is in the process of rotting it's way to ineptitude gaining critical mass.
We have an educational system designed to indoctrinate and impoverish, but not actually educate the masses. We have more ignorant know-it-alls than any time in history. We have a financial system based on debt, designed to impoverish the masses, that will implode in the VERY near future. Our judicial system is a bad joke, corruption being the norm, it essentially exists to foster big business. Our political system has become an oligarchy, again to support big money.
We're importing the world's worst through unchecked immigration, that only exacerbates other problems.
The "culture" has become nothing more than an exercise in idiocy and perversion. I don't see how this mess can continue for much longer, inertia only lasts for so long.

Blogger Brick Hardslab March 26, 2018 11:34 AM  

We already have let our Goths in for humanitarian, economic, and political reasons. Just like those Goths ours will show no more loyalty to America than Rome's did to Rome.

We can project power but it's no longer limited by super powers any sufficiently martial can balk us. Morally we are as bankrupt as any nation. When abortionaries gloat about selling babies and the murderers laugh about cutting their vocal cords to stop the babies' screams we've hit bottom. We have huge numbers either living outside the system, on the dole, hand-to-mouth with friends and relatives or in tents and old cars. I wish our military was obsessed with parades. Instead we have our real soldiers stuck in endless wars with bronze age tribesmen, perfumed princes playing Byzantine games for status and money and literal mental and physical freaks treated like real soldiers. Further, we are now enlisting women in our combat arms not just at things they can fake but in the marines. When I was a kid that was a name to conjure with. Every boy could point to a family member with pride and say, "my grandad was in the army," "my dad was in the navy," "my uncle was in the air force." But I could say, "Iwo Jima, my uncle waded ashore there and brought back a Jap sword."

We are at the end of our civilization. The elites refuse to defend the west. We might have years or decades but it is ending. It's a house of cards. If we get lucky we get a short period of chaos, if not historians will call it the dark ages.

Blogger Vaughan Williams March 26, 2018 4:15 PM  

Ominous Cowherd wrote:

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Love God, love your neighbor. That's the whole of your law.

You just misquoted Jesus very words. He didn't say "these two commandments are the whole of the law". He said the entire law and the prophets "hang off of" these two laws. The imagery here is like a grape vine, with the law and the prophets being the fruit, or the outworking, of those two laws. Yes, you have your theoretical foundation: love God, love your neighbor. But what do these things MEAN? Are they mere feelz? Hmm? Scripture says otherwise.

Blogger Shane March 28, 2018 8:35 PM  

I read the above article from Ugo Bardi a while back. It is very insightful, and a bit of a black pill. I was wondering though Vox if you or any of the readers could higlight any advanced nations which stand a better chance of weathering the coming storm. Possibly New Zealand springs to mind. Bi-Cultural idiocy and seismic activity notwithstanding its geographical isolation does give it a degree of self sufficiency. Japan and Iceland also, very ethnically homogeneous but similar to New Zealand with natural disaster potential. Switzerland has natural barriers, a highly developed industrial base and tends to focus on creating citizens as opposed to consumers with its national service policies and localism. Ireland maybe, although the Irish do tend to be universalistic, and the proximity to the E.U and enthusiasm for it as an institution could be devestating. Maybe thow Bhutan in too for the laugh.

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