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Saturday, April 07, 2018

Don't bother teaching evolution

You've got much bigger problems, science fans:
A new survey has found that a third of young millennials in the U.S. aren’t convinced the Earth is actually round. The national poll reveals that 18 to 24-year-olds are the largest group in the country who refuse to accept the scientific facts of the world’s shape.

YouGov, a British market research firm, polled 8,215 adults in the United States to find out if they ever believed in the “flat Earth” movement. Only 66 percent of young millennials answered that they “always believe the world is round.” Science teachers across the U.S. will be shaking their heads after learning that nine percent of young adults answered that they have “always believed” the planet was flat.

Another nine percent said of young adults said they thought the planet was spherical but had doubts about it. In a disturbing display of indecision, 16 percent of millennials said they weren’t sure what the shape of the planet was.
And good luck with that "global warming" narrative.

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137 Comments:

Blogger Cubby8126 April 07, 2018 8:20 PM  

I went through public schooling and all, but damn. This amount of stupidity takes the whole "homeschool or die" meme to a new level of memery

Blogger Solaire Of Astora April 07, 2018 8:22 PM  

Do they control for trolling? Sounds like something 4channers would get a kick at saying.

Blogger Stilicho April 07, 2018 8:26 PM  

Thankfully the last of the millenials turn 18 this year. Bring on Generation Zyklon... it can't be any worse.

Blogger Rocklea Marina April 07, 2018 8:26 PM  

Whip out your P900's, this is going to be fun. The "globalist's" are in serious trouble. Shaladay, Kek is in da house.

Blogger Harry Spitz April 07, 2018 8:27 PM  

I am pretty sure most of the people that answered that way did so just or the fun of jerking the poll around.

Blogger Avalanche April 07, 2018 8:31 PM  

Any of the Ilk answer polling questions accurately anymore? Know anyone who does?

Blogger Allen Skeens April 07, 2018 8:32 PM  

You haven't been living till you've been called a roundhead.
(And, no i don't mean a Cromwell supporter.

Blogger Bad Attitude April 07, 2018 8:33 PM  

The claim that the earth is round (spherical) is Russian propaganda - I heard it on CNN.

Blogger Emmanuel Mateo-Morales April 07, 2018 8:34 PM  

As others much smarter than me have already said: that has GOT to be some grade A trolling.

Blogger Meng Greenleaf April 07, 2018 8:41 PM  

Even so, it's pretty funny.

Blogger Rocklea Marina April 07, 2018 8:42 PM  

Spherecucks fooled by social constructs.

Blogger Pseudotsuga April 07, 2018 8:43 PM  

Hey, every nerdy/Aspergers kid knows it's an oblate spheroid! So maybe the question was wrong.

Blogger Alexander April 07, 2018 8:45 PM  

Need to roll science classes back to: don't ingest poisons that you use to clean clothes.

Then we can get to the shape of the planet. Human diversity might be worth looking into next.

Then, maybe, there's room for a few esoteric thoughts on how dogs became whales.

Blogger VFM #7634 April 07, 2018 8:49 PM  

When I hear about this sort of thing, my first question is always: What percentage of them are nonwhite?

Blogger Tanjil Bren April 07, 2018 8:53 PM  

"A new survey has found that a third of young millennials in the U.S. aren’t convinced the Earth is actually round... YouGov, a British market research firm..."

YouGov. Sure. They polled the US for a reason.

British millenials would have responded with: 'wots erth?' (Those few who were able to speak using words of more than two syllables, that is...)

Blogger Rocklea Marina April 07, 2018 8:54 PM  

Polaris has been sighted as far south as the Tropic of Capricorn, how is this possible on a sphere?

If you were told from birth, that the earth is flat and stationary, as it appears to be, would you believe someone telling you it's round? I mean, what about the people in Australia? Hmm? You just gunna let them fall off?

Blogger Jack Amok April 07, 2018 8:55 PM  

Well, it's been liberals telling them the earth was round, so it's not like they're being unreasonable with their doubts.

Blogger SemiSpook37 April 07, 2018 8:59 PM  

Well, keep in mind that both Einstein and Hawking ran into some issues with their theories based on the fact that they were approaching things from a heliocentric viewpoint and not a geocentric one. Personally, I think that both hypotheses are correct, in as much as yes, we do rotate on this oblate spheroid of rock around a star, but said spheroid is the obvious focal point in our own universe.

Here's a suggestion for the flat-earthers: next time you're out in the middle of a clear field on a nice day, lay down and look up at the sky. Focus on your peripheries as you do this. As you focus, you'll notice that there is an ever so slight curvature at the edge of this horizon. That's not your eyes.

Anonymous Anonymous April 07, 2018 9:01 PM  

Publick edumacayshun! Betcha they know all about the importance of gun control, especially after the crisis-actor who must not be named started his ongoing road-show. After knocking down a few tide-pods as they get on the buses to march, their vast repository of knowledge will grow exponentially.

Blogger Ingot9455 April 07, 2018 9:04 PM  

At first you think, "It can't be," but just look at the bell curve. If we dumb down the average to 95 IQ and then look at the lowest 33% of that, it's a wonder these people can feed themselves.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash April 07, 2018 9:05 PM  

You flat earth deniers are all the same. You just repeat the propaganda you've heard. Has any of you actually done the experiment?

Blogger Nathan Housley April 07, 2018 9:06 PM  

As much as it may be fun to toss shade at yet another millennial folly, the fact that still yet another anti-American social criticism comes from Britain should also raise eyebrows.

Blogger Robert What? April 07, 2018 9:13 PM  

Of course the earth is flat. If it waa round it would roll off the backs of the giant turtles.

Blogger bearspaw April 07, 2018 9:16 PM  

Yikes!

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener April 07, 2018 9:17 PM  

Flat earthers: still more enlightened than CNN viewers

Blogger Jeff aka Orville April 07, 2018 9:20 PM  

Yeah, the Flatters are often clogging up the Q threads on 8chan. It's amazing. I saw one anon there today saying that satellites are secretly in planes and balloons because there is no outer space.

Blogger David The Good April 07, 2018 9:22 PM  

Maybe they've been lied to so much they simply don't believe whatever the mainstream opinion happens to be.

Blogger VFM #7634 April 07, 2018 9:22 PM  

"Polaris has been sighted as far south as the Tropic of Capricorn, how is this possible on a sphere?"

@Rocklea Marina
Refraction is a helluva thing.

Blogger Rocklea Marina April 07, 2018 9:23 PM  

Snidely Whiplash wrote:
"You flat earth deniers are all the same. You just repeat the propaganda you've heard. Has any of you actually done the experiment?"

Truly it is written, the people perish for lack of knowledge.

Blogger Lazarus April 07, 2018 9:26 PM  

The Flat Earth sauce is way better now than back in the day when my step-grandfather with shellshock from WWI thought the earth was flat.

Thank goodness for the internet. Now we know that 30.3333% of Millenials have PTSD from government schooling, drugs, and MS13.

Blogger Rocklea Marina April 07, 2018 9:27 PM  

"Of course the earth is flat. If it waa round it would roll off the backs of the giant turtles."

Don't mention the elephants, some here view it a heresy.

Blogger Rocklea Marina April 07, 2018 9:34 PM  

"Refraction is a helluva thing."

You're right there. Without refraction, we would never have been able to account for the height of Sun discrepancy with respect to greater latitude.

Anonymous Anonymous April 07, 2018 9:44 PM  

"The Earth is flat."
"Nonsense, just look at photos from space"
"Meh. Fake."
"Then there is the fact that you see the top of a ship over the horizon..."
"I never saw a ship on the horizon."
"But lots of people have."
"If they are telling the truth, it's just some atmospheric phenomenon."
"Fine. Do you agree that gravity pulls things toward center-mass?"
"Of course. I know basic physics, I'm not an idiot."
"Then if the Earth were flat, gravity's pull would be perpendicular to the ground solely at the center of the planet. A falling object would drop at an angle everywhere else, more noticeably so the further away you go."
"Sure. All that means, is that we happen to be at the center of the disk that is Earth."
"But you've traveled a significant distance from home, right? And you never saw a dropped object fall at an off-90 degree angle, right? It never felt like you're climbing a hill when you walk in the direction that happens t be away from Earth's center and downhill back toward it."
"Good point, let me think about this a bit. Maybe the Earth is so large a disk, and all known continents are grouped in its center, that any deviation of gravity's behavior from the perpendicular is negligible. The earth is flat, but much larger that we suspected."

Blogger L' Aristokrato April 07, 2018 9:53 PM  

Flat-Earf is still less dumb, and much less harmful than 'equality'.

Blogger Aeoli April 07, 2018 9:57 PM  

Maybe they've been lied to so much they simply don't believe whatever the mainstream opinion happens to be.

^^This.

I have a longer explanation typed up somewhere but the essence is that rationalist epistemology has collapsed into solipsism.

Blogger Aeoli April 07, 2018 10:00 PM  

So, imagine that Descartes' evil demon, of "utmost power and cunning has employed all his energies in order to deceive me." Except it's my entire society, because I'm a working class badwhite kid and they all secretly agree I deserve to go extinct.

Blogger SmockMan April 07, 2018 10:00 PM  

What I find shocking is that ONLY 9% of those kids decided to troll.

Blogger Aeoli April 07, 2018 10:03 PM  

Also, keep in mind that human society is effectively our ecology at this point, because only farmers really have to be realists anymore (and that's shaky). So society = universe, according to the parts of our brains that govern desire and behavior, from which most of our rational thoughts emerge.

Blogger Ceerilan April 07, 2018 10:03 PM  

THIS is why squandering the government's credibility for partizan attacks is such a big deal. Forget the inability to forecast a civilizational collapse 100 years in the future...those idiots in charge actually seem shocked no one trusts them after 2 decades of constant direct attack.

Blogger Lazarus April 07, 2018 10:05 PM  

@38

Millenials are lazy

Blogger Aeoli April 07, 2018 10:06 PM  

Laugh all you want, poolsiders. This is how your race ends. One generation's joke is the next generation's cliche, and the third generation's culture.

Blogger SmockMan April 07, 2018 10:06 PM  

I await the next poll of nerdy 18-24 year olds that "reveals" they are having crazy sex on the hour every hour.

Blogger Rocklea Marina April 07, 2018 10:08 PM  

@34 paworldandtimes wrote:
""Then there is the fact that you see the top of a ship over the horizon..."

What's that you say about horizon? I give you, the P900.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql_TTguKxnE

Blogger Aeoli April 07, 2018 10:10 PM  

Note that the punchline of this joke is "trust in nothing you can't see".

Blogger Daniel Paul Grech Pereira April 07, 2018 10:11 PM  

They are trolling.

Blogger Rocklea Marina April 07, 2018 10:16 PM  

"Note that the punchline of this joke is "trust in nothing you can't see"."

It's a good point Aeoli, I have ears to hear. The perversion of divine simplicity.

Blogger DonReynolds April 07, 2018 10:18 PM  

Art Linkletter had a popular program on television where he asked the early opinions of children. (Kids Say The Darndest Things)

In one episode, he asked which was the most important....the sun or the moon. One boy insisted the MOON was more important than the sun. Asked why, he said the moon shines at night when we need it and the sun shines in the day when it is already light outside.

In another episode, a child explained that the moon is a hole in the sky that lets the light in. (Oddly, this was the same explanation given in the HBO Rome mini-series by a Roman soldier for the light given off by the moon and the stars...."holes in the celestial canopy".)

Blogger Theproductofafineeduction April 07, 2018 10:37 PM  

Go back to 4chan

Blogger MacD April 07, 2018 10:42 PM  

Hey Cubby - it has nothing to do with what kind of schooling you had. There's really nothing to back the globe Earth theory. Look into it yourself.

Blogger Brett baker April 07, 2018 11:01 PM  

But they all believe the lie there is an Earth....

Blogger Brett baker April 07, 2018 11:01 PM  

But they all believe the lie there is an Earth....

Blogger tz April 07, 2018 11:08 PM  

It's a globalist conspiracy to hide themselves by denying the earth is a globe.

Blogger tz April 07, 2018 11:10 PM  

Will there be massive government expendatures to reinflate it so it is no longer flat?
Well, according to Prechter, Defalation is going to be the big problem.

Blogger tz April 07, 2018 11:12 PM  

@34
we have instant pictures of angles of shadows from all over the sunny side of earth. (I particularly enjoy seeing the visible light weather satellites at the equinoxes and solstices, the former you see a sharp vertical line, the latter you see the full 23&change angle).

Blogger Wolfman at Large April 07, 2018 11:19 PM  

Donut world theory: It's flat, round and hollow. All problems solved.

Blogger Joe Katzman April 07, 2018 11:21 PM  

"It depends. What shape does Gaia identify as?"

Funny part is, actual flat-earthers are more scientodific: https://www.livescience.com/62115-flat-earther-mike-hughes-launches-homemade-rocket.html

Blogger Wynn Lloyd April 07, 2018 11:27 PM  

This. Science has become so compromised with Tabula Rasa//Anti-Sociobiology, global warming, and feminism that you either reject what you see with your own eyes, or what you read in science textbooks.
The results in the poll are not surprising. Tell kids that the Earth is going to turn into Venus if we don't stop industry, when it's in the middle of a record low winter, or insisting that race isn't real, when dindus are disrupting half the classes the kids are taking, it will be very easy for them to reject all dominant viewpoints.
You see dindu after dindu not doing "nuffins" enough times, that you go online for the truth. You find it there, and become predisposed to trusting outsider knowledge in general.

Well, that's certainly a possibility, anyway.

Blogger Wynn Lloyd April 07, 2018 11:30 PM  

Ha. I should have read your comment before I posted mine. Great minds, right?

Blogger lazlo azavaar April 08, 2018 12:08 AM  

I knew it, the earth is a Tide pod.

Blogger Bobiojimbo April 08, 2018 12:36 AM  

There's one at my work. I don't know her, but she flusters some of my coworkers.

Blogger Darwinian Arminian April 08, 2018 12:42 AM  

I blame Tom Friedman for this.

Blogger Makeshift April 08, 2018 12:43 AM  

I didn't know you were a spherecuck VD

Blogger Were-Puppy April 08, 2018 12:44 AM  

This is my favorite flat earth parody:
https://youtu.be/KvAk9718Jo8

Blogger Jack Amok April 08, 2018 12:46 AM  

Maybe they've been lied to so much they simply don't believe whatever the mainstream opinion happens to be.

The Earth is round, Global Warming is real, and there's nothing wrong with Mr. Jones if he wants you to call him Brenda and let him use the little girl's room.

Oh, and could someone send a little help to get our Global Warming research ship unstuck from the ice?

Blogger Lemmenkainen April 08, 2018 12:50 AM  

I wonder if non-white millennials and the white percentage below like 95 IQ adds up to 33%? I'd love to see the how the answers broke out by ethnic origin.

Blogger The Kurgan April 08, 2018 12:55 AM  

Unfortunately it’s not just millennials. I had dinner with a couple I had not met before and the man indeed was a flat earther. Somehow I managed not to defenestrate him.

Blogger Jehu April 08, 2018 1:04 AM  

Look at the big 'science' narratives being pushed today. Global warming---bullshit. Evolution---bullshit, blank slate/racial uniformity---bullshit, sexual equality---bullshit, nutrition/don't eat fat---bullshit.
It's not surprising lots of people don't trust science at all now. Shades of 'The Last Battle' in a way. The surge in flat-earthers is perhaps a sign that the prestige of 'science' has gone into eclipse. Ironically, the flat earth rocket scientist/engineer/pilot who launched his flat earth rocket in California has done more real not-quotation marks science that 99.99% (conservatively) of the people that post about how they F-ing love science.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd April 08, 2018 1:11 AM  

VFM #7634 wrote:When I hear about this sort of thing, my first question is always: What percentage of them are nonwhite?

About the same percentage that are flat earthers and aren't trolling.

Blogger James April 08, 2018 1:17 AM  

I've been at this for three years, remember we've all been taught the same pablum. Earth rotating on its axis at 1000mph while revolving around the sun at 65,000 mph while revolving around the Great Attractor at 500,000mph et cet, et cet, all brought to you by the same I LOVE SCIENCE crowd that brought you Darwinian Evolution. NASA =Dept of Defense, you trust government? Do your own research, dont just believe what you've been taught.

Blogger Zeroh Tollrants April 08, 2018 1:18 AM  

Can't believe these spherecucks didn't poll question on whether of not the Earth was hollow...
Sad.

Blogger Ominous Cowherd April 08, 2018 1:18 AM  

Rocklea Marina wrote:Polaris has been sighted as far south as the Tropic of Capricorn, how is this possible on a sphere?

Only during the Northern summer, right?

Snidely Whiplash wrote:You flat earth deniers are all the same. You just repeat the propaganda you've heard. Has any of you actually done the experiment?

So what if the earth is really flat? The round earth model is so elegant and parsimonious.

L' Aristokrato wrote:Flat-Earf is still less dumb, and much less harmful than 'equality'.

Thread winner?

Blogger Gabriel Lewis April 08, 2018 1:37 AM  

"The national poll reveals that 18 to 24-year-olds are the largest group in the country who refuse to accept the scientific facts of the world’s shape."

Well, that explains the recent 'thing' I've encountered on the web. People going to great lengths trying to rationalize the earth as a two dimentional disk inside a transparent dome.

I recently heard someone, who presumably seems to have paid rapt attention to his kumbayan science classes, even put forth that SpaceX rockets, hit the dome and never leave space.

Is this a fu to the teachers that tell them that there is no difference between men and women, and push social justice in the classroom?

Blogger OGRE April 08, 2018 1:46 AM  

Why should I believe the Earth is flat or round?

I've never been in space to where I can observe the Earth from a distance. And I've never met anybody who has. So all I have to go on is hearsay upon hearsay...these people tell me that these other people have talked with yet more people who talked with someone who went up into space and saw that the Earth is round. Well I've not had a chance to question and cross examine any of those people, much less the original witness. At best I can make a leap of faith that all these people are honest and telling the truth. (Even though I have direct evidence that humans are very often liars.)

And really what does it matter to me? Nothing I do in my daily life depends on whether I believe the Earth is flat or round. My belief or lack thereof doesn't help me with my job, or clean out my gutters, or make me last longer in bed. So why should I care?

Actually, I do find it hilarious how out bent out of shape some people get over flat earthers, as if its a personal afront to their very being that somebody somewhere doesn't believe the Earth is round. Some of these guys get so upset that you'd think they've being misgendered!! Its really quite funny!

So I think I'll be a flat earther now because a) I have no real proof that the earth is round, b) it doesn't affect me in my daily life in any way, and c) its fucking hilarious watching science fags get all twisted about it. Do I get a membership badge now and a discount at Costco?

Blogger Jack Amok April 08, 2018 1:53 AM  

Is this a fu to the teachers that tell them that there is no difference between men and women, and push social justice in the classroom?

Well, if we're going to let women and vibrants take over rocketry, we might as well believe the earth is a flat disc inside a hollow dome. Disc, sphere, dome, turtles, it's all the same to a rocket that blows up on the launch pad or never even ignites.

Blogger Dirk Manly April 08, 2018 1:55 AM  

@21

" If we dumb down the average to 95 IQ and then look at the lowest 33% of that, it's a wonder these people can feed themselves."

Why do you think EBT allows purchases from "You Buy - We Fry" joints?

Blogger Dirk Manly April 08, 2018 1:57 AM  

@23

"As much as it may be fun to toss shade at yet another millennial folly, the fact that still yet another anti-American social criticism comes from Britain should also raise eyebrows."

Yep. It's not like this hasn't been happening since, oh, about 1700 or even earlier.

Blogger Dirk Manly April 08, 2018 1:59 AM  

@32

"Don't mention the elephants, some here view it a heresy."

Of course the 4 elephants is a heresy.

It's *2* elephants and *2* donkeys!

Blogger lazlo azavaar April 08, 2018 2:06 AM  

Turtles all the way down.

(and tide pods)

Blogger Mr. Bee April 08, 2018 2:11 AM  

I think pollsters, who are becoming less and less popular, are getting their legs pulled and pretty much deserve it.

Blogger BlowMe April 08, 2018 2:19 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger BlowMe April 08, 2018 2:22 AM  

@1 Cubby8126

"This amount of stupidity takes the whole "homeschool or die" meme to a new level of memery"

Homeschooled kids have the unique and "unfair" advantage of generally knowing where their damn teacher is.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/1-in-4-us-teachers-are-chronically-absent-missing-more-than-10-days-of-school/2016/10/26/2869925e-9186-11e6-a6a3-d50061aa9fae_story.html?utm_term=.59aaa956899e

Some of the criticisms of homeschooling are rather amusing.

https://infogalactic.com/info/Homeschooling#Controversy_and_criticism

The National Education Association worries that homeschooled kids will suffer from lack of interaction with students of different ethnic and religious backgrounds.

Given the fact that it's almost unheard of for kids to ever encounter other kids, especially those of a different ethnic or religious backgrounds, anywhere else other than at a school, I guess it's a valid concern. Especially if it really bothers you.

"Stanford University political scientist Professor Rob Reich (not to be confused with former U.S. Secretary of Labor Robert Reich) wrote in The Civic Perils of Homeschooling (2002) that homeschooling can probably result in biased students..."

Which, as we all know, has never and would never happen in a public school. Least of all in those near Stanford, given how right wing they are.

Blogger Freddy April 08, 2018 2:32 AM  

Relevant topics. The next survival of humanity. 5G. You awake? Then step up and throw down on your theory on how we can stop these transmissions from a eugenic Gates Foundation Serco cluster f!#&!

Blogger Azure Amaranthine April 08, 2018 2:41 AM  

"Relevant topics. The next survival of humanity. 5G."

Yes, this is possibly relevant to belief in a flat Earth.

Since it's nearly the same sort of belief.

Anonymous Anonymous April 08, 2018 3:09 AM  

Biblical Cosmology posits a solid firmament dividing the heavens above the fixed, stationary plane of "dry land", beneath which are the caverns of Sheol (called "Hades" in the LXX and NT). I'm cool with that.

Blogger BlowMe April 08, 2018 3:37 AM  

@58 Wynn

"You see dindu after dindu not doing "nuffins" enough times."

Teachers see that alot.

"Hey La'DeLaMarcus! How much of that homework I assigned you did you do last night?"

"I dindu nuffin."

I see commercials on TV with black kids at McDonald's all the time. I wonder why the don't have a McDindu Nuffin Muffin or two after school. It might give them that extra motivation they need to get their homework done.

Blogger ace April 08, 2018 4:46 AM  

Monday:
"New Americans Incredibly Diverse"
Tuesday:
"Americans no longer sure Earth is round."

GOSH.

Blogger Expendable Faceless Minion April 08, 2018 5:05 AM  

Yes. I've been up high and saw the roundness.

A friend of mine flys U-2s and brought a camera many times. It is round.

Anonymous Anonymous April 08, 2018 6:33 AM  

"And good luck with that "global warming" narrative."

And with the last sentence Vox hints at what has happened.

The government funded "science" I have seen has been so corrupted that it pays to with the odds and not believe a damn thing they tell you. At least be skeptical of everything "science" says.

Salt is bad, later it is good, later it is bad, later it is good, later ...

I am real glad to see some kids mess with the damn pollsters.

Blogger SmokeyJoe April 08, 2018 6:55 AM  

17. Jack Amok "Well, it's been liberals telling them the earth was round, so it's not like they're being unreasonable with their doubts"

That's the 'Thready Ribbon' for the day. Spot on!

Blogger Duke Norfolk April 08, 2018 7:16 AM  

David The Good wrote:Maybe they've been lied to so much they simply don't believe whatever the mainstream opinion happens to be.

This. Can't say I blame them. I myself have mused of late just how much of what I've learned in the my 54+ years is just downright false and simply propaganda.

This level of distrust and cynicism is going to make for an "interesting" world, that's for sure.

Blogger Dire Badger April 08, 2018 7:25 AM  

I want to take flat-earthers out on my boat, over the Horizon, so they can see it for themselves. Also so I can dump their bodies in the coastal currents.

Blogger Salt April 08, 2018 7:37 AM  

If the Earth is flat, where does Jack Ward stand?

Blogger Amy April 08, 2018 8:05 AM  

Please oh please I BEG you to go down this rabbit hole with me, if you haven’t already.

The part about the Dome of the Sky being made from silicate life forms scraped from Earth...I haven’t had this much fun in years.

http://energyfanatics.com/2016/10/24/are-many-buttes-giant-prehistoric-tree-stumps/

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer April 08, 2018 8:34 AM  

Don't be ridiculous. The earth can't be flat. Its hollow and the evil dero live there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5S35sU7WU4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6lm6cda5DI

Blogger Blastmaster April 08, 2018 8:46 AM  

Or they were just goofing on the pollster. I am so cynical I may answer like that. Aren't leftists always telling us that up is down, gender is fluid and freedom is slavery?

Blogger James Dixon April 08, 2018 9:25 AM  

> Also so I can dump their bodies in the coastal currents.

No soylent green for you.

Blogger James Dixon April 08, 2018 9:26 AM  

I have to agree with the above posters that it's a combination of not trusting anything their teachers tell them and pulling the pollster's leg.

Blogger Skyler the Weird April 08, 2018 9:32 AM  

This is what you get when the purpose of schooling deviates from education to instilling self esteem and promoting whatever definition of Diversity is in vogue at the moment.

Blogger Bruce Garrick April 08, 2018 9:49 AM  

The earth is really a bit pear shaped being a tiny bit narrower approaching the north pole. I mean it is closer to a ball than a pear but it isn't really quite round. Of Course Neil Digress Tyson is pushing this so it makes me begin to doubt my old astronomy professor at Chico Extension at Redding.

Blogger pyrrhus April 08, 2018 9:54 AM  

Flat Earth is nothing..check out Fomenko's New Chronology...and he's an important scientist..

Blogger Duke Norfolk April 08, 2018 10:39 AM  

James Dixon wrote:I have to agree with the above posters that it's a combination of not trusting anything their teachers tell them and pulling the pollster's leg.

Not just their teachers, but all of societies authority figures. From teachers to the media to politicians to their parents, in many cases.

Almost all credibility is gone. Frittered away in the service of The Lies.

Blogger Jack Collinson April 08, 2018 10:59 AM  

I'm a flat earther. What convinces me more than anything is how genuinely poor the "evidence" for a ball earth is, and how disingenuous most ball earthers are.

Blogger Jon D. April 08, 2018 11:01 AM  

And after a hundred years of evolution propaganda, they still haven’t really convinced the populace. Not even good at what they do.

Blogger Paul M April 08, 2018 11:37 AM  

So, YouGov got trolled by millenials. Who the hell pays these people?

Blogger Azure Amaranthine April 08, 2018 1:18 PM  

"Also so I can dump their bodies in the coastal currents."

Really, flatheadism isn't that bad on the scale of today's ills.

Simple rule for them: No engage, no rage.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine April 08, 2018 1:20 PM  

"how genuinely poor the "evidence" for a ball earth is"

Totally false. You can do about six different experiments by yourself without moving more than a couple thousand feet that indicate it pretty conclusively, let alone things you'd have seen if you've ever been out on a ship on the ocean in your life.

Blogger Libertarian April 08, 2018 2:25 PM  

You know, that's a strangely compelling argument.

Blogger Daniel April 08, 2018 2:25 PM  

Good stuff

Blogger OGRE April 08, 2018 2:47 PM  

@105 yeah well the fact that I'm obviously not travelling at 1000/mph and getting flung into space off some giant spinning sphere is pretty convincing in-my-face-every-moment-of-my-life evidence against ball-earth theory.

Blogger jandolin April 08, 2018 2:52 PM  

What percentage of the 33% are black/Hispanic? Teachers who teach w black/hispanic kids have bigger problems than teaching them the earth is not flat. The biggest challenge teachers in US schools face is to teach black/hispanic kids to read and write at the fifth grade level by the time they graduate high school.

Blogger Unknown April 08, 2018 2:59 PM  

Heh... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthrise#/media/File:NASA-Apollo8-Dec24-Earthrise.jpg

If you're so stupid as to believe it flat, be my guest...just don't expect me to believe a single damned thing you say going forward...

Blogger OGRE April 08, 2018 3:08 PM  

how gullible do you have to be to fall for a simple photoshop job? You probably believe what happens on TV is real life too.

Blogger Were-Puppy April 08, 2018 3:31 PM  

Planet X is Flat

Blogger Freddy April 08, 2018 3:35 PM  

Says the dogmatized statist educator

Blogger Blastman April 08, 2018 3:56 PM  

A while back I checked out a flat earth video on YT that ran 1.5 hrs in length. It was professionally produced in the sense of production quality, but it didn't provide any intellectually compelling arguments that I saw in the small portion of it that I watched. Pure stupidity would characterize what they were arguing. In any case, someone spent some coin producing that video.

My take on this flat earth phenomenon is that there is some money, people and/or organization behind promoting this nonsense on YT. Perhaps (((Soros))), or some left leaning organization psyops, or even a university funded psychological experiment. Or just maybe someone is being paid to flood YT with a bunch of nonsense to discredit it as a platform or the internet in general -- the MSM is losing audience and increasingly not viewed as a trusted source of news.

A few years after Climategate (2009) the global warming alarmists realized they were losing public sentiment about AGW on the internet battle to push the warming scam. So they reportedly hired 100 or so people (call rapid response squad) to scan the internet articles and forums to try and shore up support for AGW. I can remember several times pounding away at these same characters on different Yahoo articles comments sections with others against these people promoting the AGW scam. So my take on this flat earth phenomenon is that someone is pushing this garbage for whatever reason.

According to that article, only 2% of the respondents actually answered they thought the earth was flat. It's possible some of the respondents that picked not sure (that earth was round) were thinking the question was a trick question or that the earth was not exactly round (which it isn't) but merely spherical in shape and so answered that way. Of that 2% of people that picked flat earth, many of those probably answered that way just to screw with the survey for a good laugh. Jokers in every crowd.

Anonymous Anonymous April 08, 2018 4:07 PM  

Hey, every nerdy/Aspergers kid knows it's an oblate spheroid! So maybe the question was wrong

I am sure DieVerseCity makes up for most of the mistakes

Salt is bad, later it is good, later it is bad, later it is good, later

Salt is far worse for niglets whose kidneys evolved to reuptake more salt. Everyone else has had salt in their diets for thousands of years of evolution.

Blogger MacD April 08, 2018 5:27 PM  

@105 Scoured the net and couldn't find any of these experiments. Any links?

Blogger DrChaos April 08, 2018 6:20 PM  

If I was the devil, and trying my damnedest to stop people believing in God, I know which theory I would promote.

Blogger tkatchev April 09, 2018 12:41 AM  

Biblical Cosmology posits a solid firmament dividing the heavens above the fixed, stationary plane of "dry land", beneath which are the caverns of Sheol (called "Hades" in the LXX and NT).

The Church Fathers are quite clear that the Earth has a spherical shape. (They are, in fact, a quite scientific bunch; see, for example, Chrysostom's arguments against the theory of evolution. Sad that we live in a dark ages that has lost the knowledge of previous generations.)

Blogger Vaughan Williams April 09, 2018 5:30 AM  

Flat earth started being promoted with slick, expensively produced videos around 2014, right after the geocentric movie "The Principle" was released. Geocentricity is Biblical and scientific. A growing number of people were waking up and realizing the fraud in science. When geocentricity finally had a well produced documentary explaining the science, then the flat earth stuff came out of nowhere, stole the wind out of the sails of geocentricity. For now. For now. Flat earthers copy all the geocentric work, but then pile on a ton of absurdities.

Blogger Resident Moron™ April 09, 2018 6:53 AM  

My favorite quote (for now):

“Our research demonstrates that we haven’t really changed in all those millennia of evolution,”

—Dr Mirjam Brady-Van den Vos, Psychology lecturer, University of Aberdeen.

In those millennia of changing, we haven’t really changed. And the people who talk like this will call you crazy if you disagree ...

Blogger linesy April 09, 2018 10:50 AM  

Yes, I have done the experiment as a matter of fact. No matter how many times I smashed my head against a concrete post, the earth was still round.

Blogger JaimeInTexas April 09, 2018 12:34 PM  

Who knew that Prtchett wrote science? Time to reread The Colour of Magic.

BTW, the Earth is flat, disk shaped, and somebody has a crane hanging over the edge. We must know if the Great A'Tuin is a boy, a girl, trans-sexual, pan-sexual, asexual, etc. The future of science is in the balance.

Blogger Blastman April 09, 2018 6:16 PM  

Geocentricity is Biblical and scientific.

Nonsense. Geocentrism doesn't have any solid foundation in either the Bible or science. "The Principle" movie is simply stupid, and it is poorly reasoned propaganda from both a theological and scientific basis. My take is that it is aimed at making Traditional Catholics look like a bunch of idiots -- which they will if they buy into that nonsense.

Blogger Vaughan Williams April 09, 2018 8:07 PM  

@123 sounds like you didn't even watch The Principle or its follow-up six hour documentary. What is nonsense is heliocentricity, rooted in ancient sun worship.

I watched an interview with physicist Richard Feynman. If you know anything of physics, perhaps you've heard of him. He said his turning point, where he became atheist, was when he saw the conflict between geocentricity in the Bible, and the heliocentricity he was taught at school. He chose heliocentricity and atheism. Heliocentricity destroys faith among those intelligent enough to think and reason on the Holy Scriptures. Copernicus will suffer in the Judgement for the sake of Feynman and the many others he misled.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash April 10, 2018 12:31 AM  

Heliocentricity destroys faith among those intelligent enough to think and reason on the Holy Scriptures. Copernicus will suffer in the Judgement for the sake of Feynman and the many others he misled.
No, teaching obvious falsehood as dogma destroys faith among those capable of thinking.
Talk about learning the wrong lesson...

Blogger Blastman April 10, 2018 9:17 AM  

I watched an interview with physicist Richard Feynman. If you know anything of physics, perhaps you've heard of him. He said his turning point, where he became atheist, was when he saw the conflict between geocentricity in the Bible, and the heliocentricity he was taught at school.

With 3 of R. Feynman's books on my shelf and having watched several of his lectures, I am quite familiar with him. I've never heard the claim that he was driven to his atheism/agnosticism by the geocentric vs heliocentric debate. If that is true, then if anything, it would have been the scientifically obvious false geocentrism being taught as a teaching of the Bible and/or Church that would have destroyed any possible faith in Christianity -- as already pointed out by Whiplash.

And this is precisely the point -- the Galileo affair and the fact that some people in the Church at that time in history defended geocentrism has been used by the MSM and enemies of the Church as a whip to attack the credibility of Christianity on many occasions, particularly in the past 60 years. By defending geocentrism with fallacious arguments, you're just digging a deeper hole that discredits Christianity.

… sounds like you didn't even watch The Principle or its follow-up six hour documentary. What is nonsense is heliocentricity, rooted in ancient sun worship.

I haven't watched The Principle, but I am quite familiar with both the history of the reemergence of the helio-geocentric debate in Traditional Catholic circles, and many of the issues therein, having debated one of Robert Sungenis' proteges on geocentrism years ago who goes by the name of Mark J Wyatt.

The outrageous false claim that geocentrism was taught infallibly as a dogma/doctrine of the Church by Solange Hertz and Paula Haigh in the Remnant newspaper is one of the reasons I entered into the debate. This erroneous claim and the fact that the people (priests and bishops) of the Conciliar Church after Vatican II were doing such a poor job of defending Christianity from the attacks over the Galileo affair, is another of the reasons that I delved into the Galileo issue many years ago -- to find out what the issues were and what really happened. So I am familiar with the Galileo issue also.

You will not find geocentrism in any teachings of the Church, whether General Councils, Papal decrees, Apostolic Exhortations, Encyclicals, Papal Bulls, theology books, … etc. -- it simply isn’t there. So, the claim that the Church changed its teaching on geocentrism is flat out wrong -- the Church never had such a teaching. The best you can say is that it was a theological opinion of certain passages of scripture that seemed to confirm the prevailing scientific thought of the day, which up until Galileo's time was geocentrism.

Blogger Vaughan Williams April 10, 2018 2:39 PM  

Don't move the goalposts. I never said anything about the "Church teaching geocentricity as dogma". The Bible teaches it and the various Church Fathers support it in their writings.

Feynman made it clear he didn't get the geocentric idea from Church; he got it from the Bible. Churches haven't taught geocentricity for over 100 years.

Who cares about "credibility" if that credibility is based on defending a lie? The Word says "do not follow a multitude to do evil". You would throw away truth for some credibility in the eyes of the world?

If you had gone over Sungenis material, he went over the transcripts of the Galileo case, and found Galileo didn't make any case at all, but used all the usual SJW tactics.

Blogger Blastman April 10, 2018 7:13 PM  

The Bible teaches it

The Bible does not teach geocentrism unless one misinterprets scriptures. That is the basic lesson of the Galileo affair.

Take …

1 Chronicles 16:30 …tremble before him, all the earth; yea, the world stands firm, never to be moved.

Or

… Psalm 104:5 He established the earth upon its foundations, So that it will not totter forever and ever.


Do you really think that scriptural passages such 1 Chronicles here is telling us that we should …“tremble” … before God because the sun is orbiting around the earth in the solar system? This type of interpretation really makes no sense in the context of the Bible's purpose, yet, this is what has been held up as scriptural support of geocentrism. And once one understands that Chronicles does not support geocentrism, it tells us that the other scriptural passages referring to the "foundations … standing firm … never to be moved" don't or can't or shouldn't support a geocentric interpretation either.

It would be much more plausible to be looking for a spiritual or moral angle rather than one which suggests a scientific view on the movement of the planets. I would be much more inclined to interpret these passages as meaning God’s laws stand firm … “never to be moved” … ie. reference to .. “tremble before him” .. -- we tremble at the thought of God’s laws (which stand firm) and his judgement. The general context of scripture is God's interaction with creation, His moral law, and His purpose for creation. Thus Gods laws and judgement is a much better fit here than some cosmology lesson about the orbit of the planets.

I doubt Christians would have interpreted scriptures in a geocentric manner if science hadn't been teaching the geocentric model for over 1600 years before the Galileo affair. And I similarly doubt Feynman would have proffered this interpretation of scriptures if not for Christians that had provided this misinterpretation to begin with.

Blogger Blastman April 10, 2018 7:42 PM  

Sungenis … and found Galileo didn't make any case at all …

Well, Galileo did made a half decent case for the heliocentric model following Copernicus, and even though it wasn't a strong case it did solve some of the observational problems with geocentrism. But much of the solid evidence for the heliocentric model came in the years after Galileo. So, Galileo was later shown to be essentially correct about the sun centered model even though he didn't have solid scientific foundations to press home his claim at that time. The scientific aspects of the heliocentric model that Galileo had wrong were later corrected by solid evidence.

… and the various Church Fathers support it in their writings.

So? The Church Fathers might have believed a lot of things to be true -- but that doesn't necessarily make these things a matter of Christian faith.

I don't know if you are Catholic, but here is Pope Leo XIII on the Fathers …

Pope Leo XIII - Providentissimus Deus -- On the Study of Holy Scripture … (1893) …

19. The unshrinking defense of the Holy Scripture, however, does not require that we should equally uphold all the opinions which each of the Fathers or the more recent interpreters have put forth in explaining it; for it may be that, in commenting on passages where physical matters occur, they have sometimes expressed the ideas of their own times, and thus made statements which in these days have been abandoned as incorrect. Hence, in their interpretations, we must carefully note what they lay down as belonging to faith, or as intimately connected with faith -- what they are unanimous in. For "in those things which do not come under the obligation of faith, the Saints were at liberty to hold divergent opinions, just as we ourselves are,"


It appears Leo XIII is addressing the Galileo affair directly here, and he’s making the distinction between what the Fathers believed -- and what they believed and laid down as a matter of faith. The Fathers never made or held Geocentrism as a matter of doctrine for the Church, so the faithful were never held to Geocentrism as a matter of faith -- it was just a theological opinion. The Fathers might have all believed unanimously that goat cheese is the best cheese, but that doesn't make it an article of faith or teaching of Christianity. Context is everything.

Who cares about "credibility" if that credibility is based on defending a lie? The Word says "do not follow a multitude to do evil". You would throw away truth for some credibility in the eyes of the world?

Presenting geocentrism as a teaching of the Church or as having a solid basis in scriptures when it does not, is an error that can only end up doing harm to the Church and serving to make Christianity look foolish.

Aquinas … (The Pocket Aquinas …p.316 ) …

Indeed as Augustine states ([I]Confessions XII, 25[/I]), if a person thinks that something false -- something that he believes and stubbornly dares to assert, on a point which he is ignorant -- belongs formally to the essential doctrine of godliness, then he is an adversary. Now, Augustine says this man is a hindrance, because the true faith is thus made a laughingstock before nonbelievers when something is set up by an uninstructed believer as a part of the faith, something that the most authoritative documents show to be false; …

Blogger Vaughan Williams April 11, 2018 12:22 AM  

Apply that to yourself then. Get down and watch Sungenis documentary on the matter. Stubbornly claiming geocentricity isn't scriptural won't do. Your claims about Galileo and "later evidence for heliocentricity" don't hold water. They are pure bunk in fact.

No, I'm not a Catholic, but let the matter rest there, for Vox has a rule against warfare between Catholics and non-Catholics on his blog.

Blogger Vaughan Williams April 11, 2018 12:24 AM  

Galileo's model wasn't an improvement on Tycho Brahe's model. If you want to speak against geocentricity, hand waving and specious claims don't cut the mustard, mister.

Blogger The Foolproof April 11, 2018 9:29 AM  

My thoughts on the firmament:

http://knowyourmeme.com/photos/800023-jojos-bizarre-adventure

Blogger Blastman April 11, 2018 1:47 PM  

No, I'm not a Catholic, but let the matter rest there, for Vox has a rule against warfare between Catholics and non-Catholics on his blog.

This isn't a Catholic vs Protestant debate, as both groups are involved in the spreading of this geocentric nonsense. It's about what the teachings of Christianity are with regard to helio-geocentrism. Robert Sungenis is a Catholic.

geocentrismdebunked … sungenis botches the math again

But is it really reasonable to take seriously a challenge to the entire world of physics and astrophysics from a man who repeatedly demonstrates that he can’t even get the correct answer to the most basic math problem, even after being corrected and provided with the right answer? Does one really need to wade through 23,000 words of verbiage once he’s discovered that Sungenis is utterly incompetent in even high school level physics?



If you want to speak against geocentricity, hand waving and specious claims don't cut the mustard, mister.

That's funny, coming from someone who hasn't provided a single argument in favor of geocentrism or against anything that I have provided so far. All you've provided is the retort to go watch The Principle.

I suggest you go educate yourself about some of the stupid things argued by geocentrists like Robert Sungenis at that geocentrismdebunked.org site that have been debunked.

Blogger Vaughan Williams April 11, 2018 6:23 PM  

Blastman wrote: geocentrismdebunked … sungenis botches the math again

But is it really reasonable to take seriously a challenge to the entire world of physics and astrophysics from a man who repeatedly demonstrates that he can’t even get the correct answer to the most basic math problem, even after being corrected and provided with the right answer? Does one really need to wade through 23,000 words of verbiage once he’s discovered that Sungenis is utterly incompetent in even high school level physics?


Anyone can make an arithmetic mistake. Sungenis doesn't depend on a single argument or a single arithmetic sum, but on many arguments and a wealth of evidence.

If you want to speak against geocentricity, hand waving and specious claims
don't cut the mustard, mister.


That's funny, coming from someone who hasn't provided a single argument in favor of geocentrism or against anything that I have provided so far. All you've provided is the retort to go watch The Principle.


I provided the best argument there is: geocentricity is scriptural, heliocentrism is unscriptural.

You dealt dishonestly with the Scriptural case against heliocentricity. You mentioned the Bible verses that speak of the earth not moving. Then you waved your hands and, lo! Suddenly those verses aren't to be taken literally. For reasons. First, you chose the weakest (although still valid) argument from scripture) and then you didn't debunk it. You merely proclaimed it untenable. Because of the reputation of the Catholic Church of something. False reasoning. Second, you ignored the strongest arguments from Scripture; the fact that sun moon and stars were created 4 days after the Earth was. The fact that in multiple places the sun and moon are shown to be travelling around the earth, and that God has altered them in their paths, as when he moved the sun backwards for King Hezekiah, or held the moon still for Joshua. It was not the earth that ceased its rotation; it was the sun and moon that stood still in their orbits around the earth.

I suggest you go educate yourself about some of the stupid things argued by geocentrists like Robert Sungenis at that geocentrismdebunked.org site that have been debunked.

The http://flatearthdeception.com/ website shows how a debunking website should work. It is factual and accurate.

The website you linked shows it doesn't understand the basics. It says Sungenis is debunked because he didn't take into account "the corrections they made to follow the anomaly"? First, the anomaly exists. Second, when you have to make a bunch of corrections to a data set to get a result, that sounds exactly like the Global Warming hockey stick shenannigans. It isn't any argument against Sungenis at all. Fudged data isn't sufficient to throw out the Bible.

Your website makes a lot of stupid claims, such as Sungenis and DeLano being Gnostic. It criticises them for espousing the very conspiracy "theories" and comments about the unreliability of Science that Vox Day regularly documents on this blog.

You haven't made any sort of case for heliocentricity other than "the pope agreed to it 180 years ago"

Blithely ignoring the evidence doesn't do it. You don't win this. Your geocentrismdebunked website if full of handwaving and appeals to "it is so because we believe it is so". It may fool people who aren't familiar with the geocentric scene. Sungenis did a good job of summarizing, collecting and footnoting the research that was done before, but geocentricity has been progressing on a cautious scientific footing for a very long time.

Blogger Blastman April 12, 2018 3:04 PM  

Second, you ignored the strongest arguments from Scripture; the fact that sun moon and stars were created 4 days after the Earth was. The fact that in multiple places the sun and moon are shown to be travelling around the earth, and that God has altered them in their paths, as when he moved the sun backwards for King Hezekiah, or held the moon still for Joshua. It was not the earth that ceased its rotation; it was the sun and moon that stood still in their orbits around the earth.

Even if the earth was created before the sun and the rest of the universe, that doesn't support geocentrism or heliocentrism. It's a wash, as no credible narrative can be spun to support either model from those passages. And if either of 2 objects is moving then there is apparent motion between them. God can certainly stop that apparent motion in either a geo or helio system -- so the Josh story doesn't support either model either. We still use common terms like sunrise/sunset in modern times, even though virtually everyone accepts a heliocentric view of the solar system.

I provided the best argument there is: geocentricity is scriptural, heliocentrism is unscriptural.

The best scriptural passages in support of geocentrism were the passages I already debunked in my previous post. One has to stretch interpretation of scriptural passages beyond the point of credibility to support a geocentric model.

Aso … Geocentrism and the Pitfalls of Over-literal Interpretation

I pointed out that this is obviously phenomenological language, that is, it is picturesque, subjective language that describes things in terms of how they appear to us, not in terms of their literal, objective, physical detail:

Blogger Blastman April 12, 2018 3:19 PM  

There are a multitude of scientific problems for which the geocentric model has no adequate explanation. The most recent one being satellite speed measurements Top Geocentrist Fails Pioneer Challenge

But the biggest problem for geocentrism is gravity and the fact that larger masses have more of it. Geocentrists have to somehow come up with a plausible explanation as to why the much more massive sun would be orbiting a substantially less massive earth, as opposed to the other way around. Further, they have to come up with plausible explanations on how distant galaxies could be orbiting the earth once a day, thereby traveling 10,000's times the speed of light and even much much faster.

The explanation Geocentrists attempt is that earth could be the center of mass of the universe, and the universe rotates around that. This is debunked by simple observations of the distribution of matter in our solar system and universe, not even close to being enough mass to account for this … see Here Comes the Sun, by Dr. Alec MacAndrew

and …

As the Universe Turns, by Gary Hoge

In a geocentric model, as one moves out from the proposed center of mass (earth), the orbital speed would have to be proportional to the distance from the center. Pluto is approximately 40x the distance from earth as is the sun, so rotating around the earth once per day would mean it would have to travel 40x as fast. The gravity models for our solar system under a geocentric universe are simply untenable as there is not enough gravity to even come close to explaining this.

Observations of the rotational speed of galaxy's such as Andromeda don't show a proportional orbital speed increase of the suns (matter) as one moves out from the core of the galaxy to the outer regions. The speed near the core is almost the same as the outer regions, and there are many observations of galaxies that show this. So, observations of gravity vs distance orbital speeds in galaxies universally go against any large orbital velocity increase over large distances.

It gets even worse, much worse. The matter density in a galaxy is substantially greater than the overall universe because of the vast empty spaces between galaxies. So a we have galaxies that aren’t even dense enough with respect to matter to show virtually any increase in speed as one moves out from the core to the outer regions. Yet, a less dense overall universe is suppose to have enough gravity in it to show 10,000's of times a velocity increase over these distances and even greater distances? Our own galaxy, with a radius 50,000 light years, would have to see close to a 50,000x speed up of the suns orbiting near the core to the outer regions. This is not what the observational data is showing. The whole geocentric model in dealing with gravity then becomes one absurdity piled upon another.

As Aquinas and Augustine point out, those proposing completely debunked ideas such as Geocentrism as part of the true Christian faith are to be looked upon as adversaries to the true faith.

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