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Saturday, April 28, 2018

Mailvox: I don't hate Jordan Peterson

But I am starting to seriously dislike some of his fans, who apparently are determined to prevent me from returning to happily ignoring their favorite integrity-challenged psychologist. A Peterson fan by the name of Y is the worst culprit so far. His comments are in bold.

I agree in general with what you say (that people set up those unwinnable games), but I believe your problem is that you don't really know who you are or why you do things you do.

No. Your problem with me is that you really don't know who I am or why I do the things I do. I have various problems, but those two are not among them.

For example, from the CW perspective, it makes literally no sense to shit on Peterson. for your differences on Jewish question.

My perspective is not whatever the CW perspective is. That is irrelevant. I had previously demonstrated the myth of the 115 mean IQ. Peterson attempted, ineptly, to defend that myth. I tore down his arguments just as easily I will tear down the arguments of everyone else who attempts to perpetuate it, just as I have demolished the arguments of everyone who attempted to perpetuate the myth that religion causes war.

That's the thing about myths. It is very foolish to attempt to defend them, because they are myths. You will be taken down, along with the myth, by any honest, competent investigator, and no amount of verbal or rhetorical facility will save you.

Don't get me wrong, he has a lot of flaws, but saying what you said about him because you have some not-so-solid reasons to believe Jewish IQ is 105 instead of 113.

No. My reasons are absolutely solid in terms of logic and relatively solid in terms of statistics. The fact that you do not understand this, or grasp you are implying that the majority of the non-Arab Israeli population is less intelligent than African-Americans on average, is not a sign of your own intelligence.

It doesn't make sense. You're both in the same fight.

No, we are not. Jordan Peterson is not a friend of mine, he is not an ally of mine, he is not a co-religionist of mine, and he is not a nationalist of any kind. So, he is either a neutral or an enemy. I don't know which, nor am I interested in doing the research necessary to determine his true status.

To me it seems the degree of your animosity and vitriol directed at Peterson is unwarranted from a rational perspective. He has his flaws, lack of cynicism being the chief one. Rationalwiki has helpfully collected most of his fuck-ups in one place if anyone is curious.

I haven't directed any vitriol at him. I don't have any animosity towards him, but I am certainly developing some towards his idiot fans. And I certainly don't place any confidence in anything Rationalwiki says about anyone. If I were to direct vitriol at him, I would point out that he is a drug-addled, integrity-challenged depressive little bitch prone to crying in public, who is one of the last people any sane young man should look to as a role model. I would also point out that he has said that most Israelis of Jewish descent are less intelligent than African-Americans. But I haven't done any of that.

He is justifiably massively more successful than you are. More charismatic, better spoken, probably somewhat more intelligent, infinitely better at public relations.

Maybe, but my wife is hotter and I don't look like I'm borrowing George Will's bowtie. But more importantly, NN Taleb is vastly more successful than Peterson by every measure. If I was prone to envying anyone on the grounds Y suggests, it would be Taleb. Do I exhibit any animosity for him? Am I seeking to tear him down? I note that Taleb has apparently reached much the same conclusion about Peterson as I have, which is that he's a lightweight who is prone to stupid opining in ignorance.

Nassim Nicholas Taleb@nntaleb
I think I am completely done with @jordanbpeterson. Gave him the benefit of the doubt with Monsanto and other nonsense. This does it.

Sure, you get to be the Dread lord, he is a Sith whom you can't really attack without making yourself look quite foolish.

Want to bet? Keep annoying me about the Canadian Crier and I will begin looking into dissecting Peterson as thoroughly as I've vivisected Harris, Dawkins, and others. My instincts already suggest that there will be no shortage of holes in his poorly-researched arguments. The fact that Taleb is now of a similar mind tends to confirm my suspicions.

So there is reasons why the part of your soul that has the Devil's ear may want to make you hate him. You're a Christian, why hate someone who is in the business of using evolutionary science for the purpose of making a rational case for christian virtues? Worst case, he converts some atheists into supporting socially conservative policies sympathetic to Christians.

Is there reasons? I don't hate him. I don't care about him. I merely harbor an amount of contempt for his demonstrated lack of intellectual integrity, as I do for all such creatures. But at this point, I am certainly beginning to dislike him - unfairly - due to the annoying behavior of his fans such as Y.

Those who are accusing me of wanting to tear down Peterson should probably consider what happened the last time I was falsely accused of something, namely, gaming a certain collection of literary awards. Do you really want me to conclusively demonstrate that I was not doing anything of the sort by showing you what the real thing looks like? Because, at this point, I am genuinely starting to feel the desire to see if my initial readings of the man are not merely correct, but can be conclusively proved to even the most die-hard Peterson fan.

Then again, it looks like a job better left to Taleb.
If you want to work together with people and spread your ideas as effectively as possible you don't lash out to people like Peterson who has in the past congratulated @nntaleb for his book and cited his theories on his lectures.

The imbecile doesn't get that

1) My judgment of pple has NOTHING to do with whether they like my book

2) Social life, where relationships are nurtured, is for PRIVATE citizens, nothing to do with intellectual life bound to rigor/truth

3) Follow inspirational charlatans not me

4) I do not derive my income from some philantropy or Paltreon where I have to act inspirational & suck up to a crowd of followers cutting me a charity check. I derive my income from financial & business activites in the real world.

I don't owe nothing to nobody.
I know where I'd place my bets. Taleb is one of the very few people on my "if he disagrees with you, you had better take a close look at your assumptions, facts, syllogisms, and conclusions list."

Kallmunz has been repeatedly demanding an answer.
This is interesting and it brings to mind your recent attack on Jordan Peterson’s stance on Jewish intelligence. Your tack is on the offense. There is no “Peterson is right, but on this issue” Peterson would of course be on the defensive in answering this charge. Peterson being a nominal ally is now ostracized. I am interested in your reasoning here.
My attack is not on Jordan Peterson's stance on Jewish intelligence. My attack is a complete and conclusive demolition of the myth of Jewish intelligence. The fact that Jordan Peterson happened to to be foolish enough to again perpetuate the myth afterwards was mere coincidence. I don't believe Peterson is right about anything, mostly because I do not know his positions about almost anything. He is most certainly not an ally of mine, nominal or otherwise. I have never had any contact with the man, I have never paid any attention to the man or his work, and more than a few of his connections and influences, such as Monsanto, Sam Harris, and Stephen Pinker, appear to merit deeper investigation.

In summary, I am beginning to suspect many of his fans are making the same mistake that their fathers and grandfathers made with the neoconservatives, and that they themselves made with NeverTrumpers like Jonah Goldberg and Ben Shapiro. You may not trust my powers of discernment, but I most definitely don't trust those of Jordan Peterson's fans.

UPDATE: This statement confirms that Jordan Peterson is not, and will never be, an ally of the West. Note that he has declared the need to separate from us. We are merely acknowledging that he is correct to do so.
Jordan B Peterson@jordanbpeterson
The true liberals need to separate themselves from the identity politics types. The doctrines are NOT commensurate...
It's true. They are not commensurate. They are, in fact, diametrically opposing doctrines. On the one side is the West, with its Christian and European identities.

The fact that a globalist ideologue attacks elements or particular doctrines of the Left every now and then does not make him of the Right. It does not put him on our side, nor does it make him an ally of anything more than momentary convenience. The sooner you understand this, the sooner you will stop falling for the William F. Buckleys of the world.

Labels: , ,

152 Comments:

Blogger Solaire Of Astora April 28, 2018 12:06 PM  

You would shred Peterson. His only real challengers have been crazy leftists and Sam Harris. Everyone else tends to tread him with kid gloves and overlooks his sometimes strange assertions. He hasn't been truly tested in the public space yet.

Blogger Anno Ruse April 28, 2018 12:09 PM  

"Maybe, but my wife is hotter, I'm not a little bitch prone to crying in public, and I'm a much better athlete."

Now this is rhetoric I can get behind. For the record, I'd love to see you rip Peterson a new one. I'm a miserable drunk but throw a few thousand Patreon buckos my way and I could cheer up. What's this fucking Canuck's problem, anyway? He looks like Gregory House got the gay cancer.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother April 28, 2018 12:11 PM  

Time to play with the big boys, Jordie.

Blogger YclepedBobAli April 28, 2018 12:18 PM  

Jordan Peterson fans.

Stop idiotically needling Vox.

Vox is right on this issue. Jordan is wrong, and hey, guess what.... """"it doesn't matter"""".

Everyone can go about their business. Jordan can still run for PM. Vox can do more important work like preserving unspoiled knowledge in Infogalactic, and everything is gravy!

Please, you misguided simple souls, don't antagonise Vox enough for him to feel a necessity to start dismantling Peterson on your idiotic behalf. That would be a major opportunity cost for every-one.

Jordan knows he's wrong. Dad knows he made a mistake. He's sanitised the scene. He's moving on. Let Dad move on.

Vox isn't attacking your father. Vox doesn't care about your father. Vox just noticed your father, charitably construed, made a mistake, and called him out.

That's it.

What's wrong with you idiots. Korea is unified, and the left are feeling the first sense of potential cultural fissure in decades and decades. Go and tell Rolling Stone to go die in a corner. Stop fomenting something that isn't there. You simpletons.

Blogger HalibetLector April 28, 2018 12:20 PM  

He's a good red pilling influence on the normies. It would be unfortunate to see you drive him into hiding because some of his fans suck.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother April 28, 2018 12:20 PM  

We'll see if JP peoples give the Alt-Retards a run for their money on dumbness. Lord, I hope not.

Blogger Trid April 28, 2018 12:21 PM  

I would vastly prefer your focus stay on sea of skulls and arkhaven. Jpb is a boring fad at best, controlled opposition at worst and I would prefer that people only pay attention to him when they have nothing better to do

Blogger Dave April 28, 2018 12:21 PM  

Noooo Vox, don't do it, they're not worth it *virtually holding him back from rushing into the melee*

You have books to write, and edit, and publish, and a comics empire to establish.

Blogger Cubby8126 April 28, 2018 12:29 PM  

Hell as long as it doesn't take time from alt hero or voxiversity, rip him to shreds. His fans want you to, so make them be carefull next time when they wish for something

Blogger YclepedBobAli April 28, 2018 12:29 PM  

Jordan Peterson fans are so conscientious and smart. They're going to force their ur-father into a confrontation to defend his honour. In the course of the proceedings Jordan can only do one of two things: 1) double down on a lie, which compromises him with the right and forces him into complicity with his enemies. 2) tell the truth of his error, which means the trannie Canadian left will throw him in prison for 'anti-semitism', and stop him running for Prime Minister.

Geniuses, there is a third option. 'Nothing'. Do nothing. Leave Vox alone. He's right, JP's wrong, and it doesn't fricking matter.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother April 28, 2018 12:32 PM  

What the JP people are asking Vox to do is ridiculous. Is Vox not supposed to notice an obvious falsehood, depending on the source it comes from? If you know anything about Vox it's this: if he sees someone saying something in Vox's wheelhouse that is observably not true, Vox will comment on it.

Asking him to not do this is futile and ridiculous. Learn from this episode, rather than allowing your brain to dribble out of your ears.

Blogger Dave April 28, 2018 12:34 PM  

@Yclep

What's with the Monsanto business? I'd be highly suspect of anyone associated with that outfit.

Blogger SouthRon April 28, 2018 12:34 PM  

Jordan B. Peterson is like Ted Talks for the conservative crowd. You think you're smart just because you listen to him.

That was pretty much all I needed to know to not to bother.

Blogger select star April 28, 2018 12:38 PM  

Somewhere in a dank dark basement under a spacious lawn, John Scalzi breathes a sigh of relief.

Blogger Uncle John's Band April 28, 2018 12:42 PM  

@ 6. Trid

No one cares.

Blogger VD April 28, 2018 12:47 PM  

I would vastly prefer your focus stay on sea of skulls and arkhaven.

It will regardless. I very much doubt it would take very much effort at all to take down Peterson. Hey, maybe that's my ticket to mainstream success!

The funny thing is that if I cared about what his fans claim I cared about, a very public take-down of Peterson is exactly what I would be doing. And if they think I'm doing that already, they clearly don't know me at all.

Blogger Eze Garcés April 28, 2018 12:48 PM  


He is justifiably massively more successful than you are. More charismatic, better spoken, probably somewhat more intelligent, infinitely better at public relations.

Is probable that Y is Jordan Peterson?

Blogger Dave April 28, 2018 12:48 PM  

@UJB what's wrong with what Trid said?

Blogger KPKinSunnyPhiladelpia April 28, 2018 12:50 PM  

Look, life is complicated. (Well, duh!!) People are incredibly flawed. VD and Taleb can go all Sigma on Peterson, and that's fine enough, but to what purpose?

If the plan is to delegitimize/disqualify him, tell me, how's that working out? Any word on that? Is JP losing any Patreon subscribers to any signficant extent? Are his youtube views plummeting?

VD and Taleb may be "done" with him, but, as the saying goes, you may not be interested in JP anymore, but JP is interested in YOU.

And until he steps on some yet-to-be-determined self-destructive land mind -- and VD's great takedown, alas, is NOT it -- he's going to matter. And after he steps on that land mine, he'll still have f--k you money, just like Taleb.

I am not fan of JP. I haven't bought his book, I haven't subscribed to his Patreon account, and I don't intend to do either. But I have listened to him, and I will say this one thing about him.

He is USEFUL. He is moving the cultural needle.

OK, now it's ME who is done with JP, at least with this discussion arc.

Look forward to more great VD posts as I come here for my daily fix.

Blogger YclepedBobAli April 28, 2018 12:51 PM  

Dave wrote:@Yclep

What's with the Monsanto business? I'd be highly suspect of anyone associated with that outfit.


I didn't realise he was engaged by Monsanto. Mate you have to understand. In Canada he gets my default support because he's literally one of the only public figures not promoting a policy of erotic play and islam consciousness for kids at elementary school.

But I'm disturbed by the Monsanto business now I've looked at it 2 minutes. However, I need Trudeau to go back, to Cuba, his rightful homeland, and stay there.

Please you Oprah fan tier Jordan Peterson fans, just go away.

Blogger Lovekraft April 28, 2018 12:51 PM  

VD's statement "he is not a co-religionist of mine, and he is not a nationalist of any kind. So, he is either a neutral or an enemy." is getting to the 'meat of the matter' so to speak. These positions would indicate whether he is enabling the Great Charade or whether he is an ally in turning the ship around from a future full of Saddiq Khans and Justin Trudeaux.

One one hand, we need any help we can get in exposing the lies of the cultural marxists/jihad-apologists. But, when he and a person like Shapiro take shots at the alt-right (who are easy targets and indicate they fail to see the massive power imbalance), this is when my opinion takes a marked shift.

The main question, in my opinion, remains: what to do about past third world/Muslim mass immigration (as well as current society-altering levels), how to prevent it, and how to punish the perpetrators to ensure it is thought of by future generations as evil.

OpenID qualitycontrol1 April 28, 2018 12:55 PM  

The way he made a 'reality TV show' out of drugging his daughter with anti-depressants for more than 10 years always made me feel not quite right when listening to him.

Blogger L' Aristokrato April 28, 2018 1:01 PM  

While there are many good things to say about Peterson, his ideas, and his overall influence; Vox' evaluation of "...he is either a neutral or an enemy." is ultimately correct.
Between the man's intellectual cowardice, and lack of integrity, all of his ideas boil down to "going back to high-minded principles", which have foundational disconnects with operational reality. In the end, what he peddles is, at best, Cuckservatism 2.0, and with it, a slower civilizational death; But in the end, death all the same. Just as his half-assing of truth is, in the end, just lying once again.

A great deal of Peterson's nonsense has been observed in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zR5oJW0MoYw

Blogger 357Delta April 28, 2018 1:02 PM  

If you are a Peterson fan before you post step back for a second and think carefully about what Vix has said that is upsetting you. Make it very succinct, an actual argument not rhetoric against Vox or making the argument about him.

Blogger Nakota Publishing April 28, 2018 1:03 PM  

I like Peterson and I've garnered some inspiration from his talks, but I don't care who else does or doesn't. I see the obsession over Vox's opinion of JP as a sign of insecurity.

Blogger Kallmunz April 28, 2018 1:04 PM  

Thanks Vox. Your reasoning is sound and I appreciate your clarification. I am somewhat guilty of trolling, but some of the commenters here just ask for it, serves them right for snarking when I've had too much brandy.

Blogger Lovekraft April 28, 2018 1:04 PM  

53k followers on the JP subreddit. I just put up an inquiry asking whether they think he will capitulate and go mainstream, or whether he will continue to take on cultural marxists, SJWs etc.

Will report back in a day or two.

Blogger NO GOOGLES April 28, 2018 1:15 PM  

I have a great respect for NN Taleb and his work, but his position on GM crops annoy me. He has an unparalleled grasp of the statistics but is ignorant of the genetic/biological side of the topic and thus, he gets it wrong. That he thinks Monsanto is some devil corporation is laughable. They're no angels but I doubt they would even make the top 10 or 20 in corporate bad actors (a list that would be almost entirely populated by banks and investment firms, and maybe a fruit company or two).

As for Jordan Peterson he has some interesting material (as in his scholarly lectures and whatnot). Other than that he's made a booming business out of telling people what used to be advice considered so obvious that it mostly didn't need to be packaged and sold as revelation. Of course, in the emasculated nightmare world we live in now his advice seems like a radical departure. I don't think he can be really classified as a nationalist though he takes it as obvious that globalism is a disaster and multiculturalism isn't a good thing.

He is not alt-right but he is still useful to the alt-right as sort of a gateway drug for normies.

Blogger Doug Cranmer April 28, 2018 1:16 PM  

"[H]e is a drug-addled, integrity-challenged depressive little bitch prone to crying in public, who is one of the last people any sane young man should look to as a role model."

Well shit. That's our Prime Minister of Canada right there. Jordan's Canadian, too. Hmm.

OpenID zhukovg April 28, 2018 1:19 PM  

The issue is not Jews, it is intellectual integrity. Either JP isn't nearly as bright as his fans think he is, or he is lying(possibly both).

That said, I frankly don't see JP as being worth bothering over any further.

--ZhukovG


Blogger DonReynolds April 28, 2018 1:23 PM  

There is fuzzy but distinct line that always exists between the man and the movement. It is the line that defines a cult of personality as opposed to belief in the righteous and true application of certain principles. Every individual must make up his or her own mind....do they follow leaders or do they follow ideals?

I happen to have great respect for Patrick Buchanan (for example). He has been an important leader for many decades, but Pat also makes mistakes ....like everyone else. And when Pat appears to be wrong, I say so and I say why I feel that way. Believe me when I say, there is no reward for calling out Pat Buchanan. Some of the followers of the cult will come after you personally with hammer and tongs. Which is fine. They see it as their role to be his body guard and they will attack any and all who seem to be any kind of threat.

What is more important....and I think Pat would agree.....is not the man or his reputation or his role as a leader. What is at stake (sometimes) is the truth itself, a consistent message that we say we agree with, and our commitment to that message, no matter who else is involved.

Are we to be like the Leftist Liberals by knowingly and deliberately cultivating contradictions? Would we demand others support hypocrisy in word or deed?

As Lincoln said (but seldom did himself)....."I will stick by my friends when they are right, and part with them when they are wrong."

Loyalty is a admirable quality but not when it includes ignoring the truth. For our leaders to command our loyalty, we must also have their fidelity as well to those ideals we agreed upon many times. Some things never change.

Blogger Lyon April 28, 2018 1:26 PM  

"I am beginning to suspect many of his fans are making the same mistake that their fathers and grandfathers made with the neoconservatives."

This observation is a bull's eye. Right to the heart of the matter. The parallels are clear, at least to some of us here.

Blogger FUBARwest April 28, 2018 1:27 PM  

Those claiming JP is more influential than Vox need to think about the origins of the word cuck and cuckservative, where it came from, and how prevalent it is in internet discourse.

But ultimately, as Stefan says, That's not an Argument.

Blogger Weouro April 28, 2018 1:28 PM  

I'm still giving him the benefit of the doubt for now because while he may be aware by now of Vox's six point response, it's possible he isn't and if he is aware it's possible he's thinking about it or verifying aspects. I imagine he's pretty busy. If he doesn't respond within a week or two he will have lost my respect. Taleb's disrespect for him is pretty damning as I imagine there's some crossover in their audiences. I've only bought a few books in the past few years and the authors were Dostoevsy, Taleb, Vox, and Petersen.

Blogger VD April 28, 2018 1:32 PM  

Those claiming JP is more influential than Vox need to think about the origins of the word cuck and cuckservative, where it came from, and how prevalent it is in internet discourse.


I can't take any credit for that. Mike Cernovich and others merit more. A better example would be the disappearance of the Religion Causes War argument, which used to be nearly ubiquitous and is now rarely seen anymore. It will be interesting to see if the myth of Jewish intelligence similarly disappears over time.

Blogger NO GOOGLES April 28, 2018 1:42 PM  

I'd say that JP is more influential to your average normie or politically ignorant person that Vox is. That's really what his use is to the alt-right - giving people in the political center or whereabouts that starting push towards truth and the alt-right. That he doesn't like or agree with the alt-right in many ways isn't distressing or surprising in the least.

As for intellectual honesty I learned all I needed about the man when he said that Faith Goldy deserved to be barred from a free speech event because she talked to the Wrong People (tm).

Blogger bob kek mando - ( your mom always did like me best ) April 28, 2018 1:47 PM  

9. YclepedBobAli April 28, 2018 12:29 PM
which compromises him with the right



Jordan has never been of the Right, in any flavor, and has never pretended to be.

i'm not sure why you ( general ) keep harping on this.

Orwell had some interesting things to say. i would never mistake him for someone on 'my' side.

OpenID sakfalco April 28, 2018 1:47 PM  

"I know where I'd place my bets. Taleb is one of the very few people on my "if he disagrees with you, you had better take a close look at your assumptions, facts, syllogisms, and conclusions list.""

I can probably guess some of the names, but can you take guessing out of the equation and give the full list?

Blogger ghostfromplanetspook April 28, 2018 1:58 PM  

Very unrelated but what do you think of Spencer getting sued and e-begging for shekels Vox?

OpenID markstoval April 28, 2018 2:01 PM  

I agree that Peterson is dishonest. Perhaps the dishonesty was only on one issue, perhaps not. Perhaps it was a small thing, perhaps not.

But Satan was always described as the father of lies who could/would always wrap the lies in a large dose of truth. I distrust Peterson for the reason that he lies. When he looks to be telling the truth, there may be a bitter pill of dishonesty hidden in there someplace.

I can not ever trust a liar. (unless, maybe, one lied due to a gun at his head of something)

Blogger MJimmy April 28, 2018 2:01 PM  

May TGE annex Canada and we can be done with all this 'Prime Minister' foolery.

Blogger FUBARwest April 28, 2018 2:05 PM  

I stand corrected. It is funny how the religion causes war argument has disappeared mostly and nobody seems to mention Vox at all.

He Whom Must Not Be Named is alive and well apparently.

Blogger Abigail April 28, 2018 2:06 PM  

JBP is pulling his most devoted adherents from the same spring that feeds the alt-retard brigade, so their inability to grasp what's going on is not so surprising.

It's not a big deal if Peterson spouts off the usual BS about Jews being super smart, AS LONG AS he is open to correction. As soon as he responds to the correcting with a Cathy Newmanism, ie everyone who doesn't believe the myth of Jewish superintelligence is a Nazi, then Peterson is in flagrant violation of *his own* professed principles. It is this violation, not the initial repetition of the myth as fact, that warrants coming down on the man like a ton of bricks.

Which is one reason why a man like Molyneux doesn't get the brick treatment. Give him the facts and I'm quite sure that instead of calling people Nazis and deleting their comments, he will actually *engage the data.* As is required for all intellectually honest men.

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener April 28, 2018 2:07 PM  

"Hey, maybe that's my ticket to mainstream success!"

You could finally leave your backward enclave and move to NYC. Maybe even co-host a weekly special with Ben Shapiro on Fox Sunday dedicated to spreading the message of Judeo-Christ. It would mean getting a lot more emails like the one from Y, but that's the price you pay for success.

Blogger Solaire Of Astora April 28, 2018 2:08 PM  

27. NO GOOGLES

It's personal for Taleb. Monsanto has paid people to write hack jobs about him. And I doubt he's ignorant of the genetics considering he is friends with several geneticists. The crux of his argument though is about uncertainty and the consequent unforeseeable systemic risks that entails. The entire point is that you don't know how dangerous it is until it's too late. You saying it's safe is based on past absences of crises.

Blogger VD April 28, 2018 2:23 PM  

Very unrelated but what do you think of Spencer getting sued and e-begging for shekels Vox?

I don't.

You could finally leave your backward enclave and move to NYC. Maybe even co-host a weekly special with Ben Shapiro on Fox Sunday dedicated to spreading the message of Judeo-Christ.

And people wonder at my disinterest in talking head fame. I would genuinely rather work in a Welsh coal mine.

Blogger Ransom Smith April 28, 2018 2:28 PM  

May TGE annex Canada and we can be done with all this 'Prime Minister' foolery
I would sooner move to Maryland than annex Canada.
Their culture isn't compatible with ours .
I've know my share of them, Albertans specifically. And even they have the cuckish overly polite nature that watches their national identiy erode.

Blogger ghostfromplanetspook April 28, 2018 2:31 PM  

VD wrote:Very unrelated but what do you think of Spencer getting sued and e-begging for shekels Vox?

I don't.



Fair enough thank you.

OpenID wolfe April 28, 2018 2:39 PM  

I think Vox is wrong in some narrow senses, but likely correct in a major way: 115 does not seem plausible for Ashkenazi IQ.

The book The Chosen People: A Study of Jewish Intelligence and Achievement by Richard Lynn (yes, that Richard Lynn) should be of interest to anyone studying this subject. He apparently concludes (I've just bought the book but have not yet read it) that Ashkenazi IQ is about 110, significantly lower than the 115, though above Vox's calculations.

Here's where I think Vox could be mistaken.

I think Vox might be overestimating the effects of genetic dilution; the Hollywood shiksa argument he has made in response to this criticism is plausible, but limited and not the sole factor. Assortative mating is a counterfactor, and there's been a huge rise of that in the West in recent decades. It seems very plausible Western Ashkenazis would be part of that, particularly if partially assimilated. And if we're going to go all Hollywood, the shiksa is the mistress, not the wife.

(NB- Vox is of course correct in his previous assertion in a debate with Louise Mensch that the most dangerous thing for Jews could well be excessive love; given the attendant genetic absorption.)

I assume the 95 IQ result for Israel is correct, though it may not be. Vox does depend on this, but while surprising, it seems to be a reasonably well-regarded result.

Vox also, interestingly, is arguing for non-pure Ashkenazi in the West (mating with IQ 100 remains something I am skeptical on, but it is almost certainly a dilutive factor) but seems to me to ignore the argument that many Ashkenazi in Israel are mixed Russian/Jewish (if he addressed it I missed it). Obviously if Ashkenazis have been diluted in Israel that would skew 'pure' Ashkenazi results higher.

Accusing Peterson of being disingenuous by ignoring non-whites, including Hispanics, is unfair; Peterson wrote a response to a critic and used that critics numbers and framework.

Peterson is highly intelligent (like Vox) but less competent than Vox at recognizing with he is out of his area of expertise. I think he's also got a narrower area of expertise than Vox.

I don't think he's dishonest, but he is surprisingly injudicious and imprudent. I could be mistaken; perhaps he really is angling for temporal power.

I understand completely why Vox has been so hostile in his response; one need only look at the startling harsh rhetoric Peterson is using. Whether that's to virtue signal or not matters little.

Blogger VD April 28, 2018 2:40 PM  

You're lying, Elwin Ransom. And you're not allowed to comment here.

Blogger VD April 28, 2018 2:46 PM  

Which is one reason why a man like Molyneux doesn't get the brick treatment. Give him the facts and I'm quite sure that instead of calling people Nazis and deleting their comments, he will actually *engage the data.* As is required for all intellectually honest men.

Stefan has never attacked people as cowards and failures on the sole basis of their disagreement with him on the question of Jewish IQ. Peterson has.

I respect Stefan. He is a man of the Right and I consider him an ally. I do not respect Peterson. He is not a man of the Right and he is not an ally.

One can disagree with a man on many things and still respect him. I believe Stefan would be willing to honestly discuss the intelligence issue. I do not believe Peterson will. And I am curious, how many of his defenders here believe he will?

I'm not looking for your rationalizations and explanations of why he won't, just a simple, "yes he will" or "no he won't". How many of you really have faith in his intellectual integrity?

Blogger VD April 28, 2018 2:52 PM  

Accusing Peterson of being disingenuous by ignoring non-whites, including Hispanics, is unfair; Peterson wrote a response to a critic and used that critics numbers and framework.

Better re-read his response. He did NOT use that critic's numbers.

Critic: "white gentiles with an average IQ of 105 IQ"

Peterson: "the general population of mean of 100"


Still think he's not being disingenuous?

Blogger ghostfromplanetspook April 28, 2018 2:53 PM  

The biggest red flag for me with Petersen is that people have to drag out his religious standing. He wont just say "no I'm not a Christian" because he knows that would hurt his biblical series with a number of viewers. Also something should be said about his crying on camera whether its genuine or not it shows a man who's perhaps not all in one piece.

Blogger Mr. Deficient April 28, 2018 2:53 PM  

I like peterson but all you have to know about him, politically, is that he thinks nazis are right wing, that the holocaust has a visceral wrongness that other crimes dont, and that antifa = the alt right both in terms of intellectual wrongness and morals. Even though he talks more about anti fa, he seems to get more pissed at alt righters.

Blogger Edward Isaacs April 28, 2018 2:59 PM  

As an anime lover and an anime gaming enthusiast, I have a lot of respect for Peterson. He uses Jungian archetypes and a lot of statistics, most of which go right over my head, to really get to the heart of the Anime Question. He speaks from a sincere heart with a deep compassion for anime lovers like me. No one ever spoke to me so kindly before. Under his guidance, I hope to finally move on from anime and start engaging with real life before the year is out. He has been like a kind and loving father to me, telling me the painful truth yet with a voice of infinite tenderness. Truly life-changing.

Blogger Cecil Henry April 28, 2018 3:00 PM  

Come on Jordan, stop lying, and stop avoiding these dragons.

The treasure is always where you least want to look. (Now who said that????)

Confession Of A Reluctant Tribalist: Jordan Peterson's 'Individualism' Will Kill Western Civ


https://www.eurocanadian.ca/2018/04/confession-of-reluctant-white-tribalist-against-jordan-peterson-postmodern-individualism.html#more


Access to White people is not a human right
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DZYsI_WWkAE8w5B.jpg

OpenID crapulux April 28, 2018 3:01 PM  

@VD:

Well, JP has a bit of a cult following, so I'm not surprised you got a lot of hate mail... Also he has fans from all walks of life and over the whole IQ and personality range... which means your criticism acted like a kind of a filter, and it triggered those... well, you know the ones!...

Now, I do like JP and think he's doing good deeds, but of course I also agree with your criticism and your arguments. No matter, flawed as he is,

Since you say you don't know JP, here's an example. He was interviewed by feminist harpy Cathy Newman for Channel 4, and the results were epic. So epic, in fact, that it turned into a meme, and 3 months later, EVERY DAMN TWEET from said feminist harpy gets tons of humiliating replies. Example:

https://twitter.com/cathynewman/status/989551038352019456

This one redpilled tons of normies! Plus it was so much fun. I love watching retarded leftists and SJWs lose their shit debating an overly polite aging Canadian with a bowtie (plus he speaks in Kermit's voice, which makes it so much more enjoyable!). So please don't go out of your way to go against him ;)



Blogger Iamblichus April 28, 2018 3:04 PM  

Id love to see Vox Day on the Bill Maher show

Blogger FUBARwest April 28, 2018 3:06 PM  

The fact he maintains that a party called National Socialists are of the right after spending the time studying them was worrying enough.

Someone on the blog said it already, he is a man of the left attempting to fix the left not destroy it. He sees the right and left as parts of a whole that need to be balanced, and not as one force being pro-civilization and the other attempting to destroy it which is weird because he also recognizes that post modernism is attempting to destroy Western Civilization.

He, like other "centrists" have to find faults on the right side of the political spectrum to justify what they personally like about the left side of the political spectrum. They see the symptoms but don't want to look to closely at the cause.

By their fruits you shall recognize them.

Not being a Christian blinds people to the truth above.

Blogger Howard Stone April 28, 2018 3:09 PM  

I used to listen to Ravi Zacharias in my college days. Ravi would gently mop the floor with JP in a theological debate.

Blogger S. Thermite April 28, 2018 3:09 PM  

"I believe Stefan would be willing to honestly discuss the intelligence issue. I do not believe Peterson will. And I am curious, how many of his defenders here believe he will?"

I don't believe he will. I never did, actually, even before your recent step-by-step evisceration of his JQ argument. The first time I heard he'd presented the Jews-are-smarter argument I thought it was B.S., not because his figures might be wrong, but because he's almost certainly not going to say the inverse about low-average-IQ African Americans and their positions in society. As you said, he should have kept his mouth shut if he wasn't willing to "go there" and embrace the truth.

Blogger Credo in unum Deum April 28, 2018 3:10 PM  

I would love to see VD unload on Peterson using the double-barreled approach. I think everyone reading this blog would benefit.

Blogger Durandel April 28, 2018 3:11 PM  

If JP is dishonest and doubles down on it, I say vivisect him. If the man is as smart as he claims to be, he’ll embrace integrity over Leftist placating.

The man influences a lot of young men. The question is, is JP a good shepherd or is he a wolf playing trans-species crossdressing? Taleb or Vox would be the kind of men who should expose him if JP is the latter.

Blogger Nathan April 28, 2018 3:12 PM  

Vox,

I have bee reading your blog longer than listening to JP, and I respect you as being more brutally honest than anyone else I read (with Taleb a close 2nd).

Unfortunately, JP still is a professor in academia. If he moves any further right, especially with regards to race, he will lose his job. I hope his commitment to integrity wins out over the long term, and he comes to realize that nationalism isn't equivalent to the fake right.

My hope is that he debates someone who makes clear the distinction between the "blame the jews" fake right and the omninationalist hard right. At the moment, I think JP is correct to be suspicious of most people, especially young men, who talk about jews, because it's often a cover up for their own inadequacies and failures. He sneakily extends this heuristic to ignore people such as yourself who present uncomfortable truths about race that would get him fired and furthered banished from polite discourse, such that even the "alternative media" (Joe Rogan, rubin, crowder) will black ball him .

Blogger Iamblichus April 28, 2018 3:14 PM  

Peterson is good psychology stuff. Whenever he delves into politics he sound like a teenage girl its terrible. Hes just too gay for politics imho

Blogger LP999-16 April 28, 2018 3:16 PM  

What? Wait?!

J or Y, calm down, crack a beer have a sandwich, relax. JP has done some good work in my life regarding some random matters but let us not place immense confidence or all this "followership or acolyte status" he like Vox to others write a or offer a different way of thinking about something therefore that helps level up my own thinking upon xyz.

It's unfortunate JP errored its on him to correct or re- address a matter like this.

Listen over at youtube, Vox's video peri from 4/25 is there. Read JP's blog post RE the matter along with the myth of Jewish intellect at VD's, no one is calling them dumb - at all.

Vox is not shatting on anyone and does not DO such.

It is a categorical error here or a IQ gap in communications. Vox makes observations not really "destroying" or "tearing people apart."

JP compromised his honesty and he has stated he not on the right but listen; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OeWGMr_tns.

I've heard online its nitpicking to mention 100 when its 103, 115 AKNazi pop IQ, etc., in stats, numbers etc., it must be precise and exact in telling the truth.

Vox is not attacking JP or his "followers,"

50 Stefan never engages in hurtful personal attacks - can you, JP and Stefan get together and talk about this? (Even Styx does not resort to personal attacks.)

I read and heard regarding these controversial and uncomfortable topics being discussed, Y, Vox is not using animosity and vitriol or even envy here.

Y to these others 'murk' or marr the truth.

I am tired of all this status seeking talk, this possession, that possession, this money that money, I dont know Vox but I dont think he cares or regards that as an argument but as poor rhetoric.

Blogger S. Thermite April 28, 2018 3:18 PM  

@55 Cecil Henry: "Access to white people is not a human right."

Now that's friggin' funny right there! And true...gonna file it away for future use.

Blogger tuberman April 28, 2018 3:21 PM  

Everyone on the chans knows all about the Cathy Newman stuff (memes and all), and we also know about the "many genders of Canada" controversies, but Truth is the only currency in questions such as the one dealt with, and to ignore Truth there, is to stop being on the side of Truth.

Cathy and Canada's Gender Laws are easy targets, and that's exactly what people like Ben Shapiro go after to hide what they really stand for or against. Ben would have handled those two things almost as well as JP, in fact. We all know whats wrong with easy targets, and turning coat on the critical material.

Blogger Rikko April 28, 2018 3:24 PM  

With Peterson being pareded on TV and given a seat on the Bill Maher show it is safe to assume he has been 'mainstreamed'. JP knows the limits now and if a lie or ten is needed to keep the shekels flowing so be it. Truth is not a valued commodity in a culture of deceit.

Blogger LP999-16 April 28, 2018 3:25 PM  

In regards to Rubin, Rogan and Ben Shapariolil'hawk consider they do not wish to talk with Cerno but did talk with JP.

This year I wondered if Rubin, Beck, Rogan to the lil chic hawk Ben has perhaps slightly influenced JP or there is something up with that circle if there is one.

I dont know but something that was mentioned this week online that I read, thought of; Jewish patterns are homogeneous and appear to not allow outsiders into high trust, high in group preference rules or values for such a culture.

I have heard via peri/youtube, 'Asians not Hispanics might just dominate over the Jewish matter, China already bought Dick Clark productions.'

"How are we going to deal with very different groups playing by very different rules?" Therefore JP refuses to address these difficult matters and errored when he did, JP can correct himself if he chose.

OpenID nikephoros-ii April 28, 2018 3:26 PM  

"I have never had any contact with the man, I have never paid any attention to the man or his work, and more than a few of his connections and influences, such as Monsanto, Sam Harris, and Stephen Pinker, appear to merit deeper investigation."

To be fair, I don't think Peterson and Harris are any fans of each other, but Peterson does seem fond of lil' Benny Shapiro.

Also, notice what Taleb dropped him over: tweeting about the Douma chemical attacks.

What does attacking the "conspiracy" of Jewish influence and claiming Assad gassed his people have in common?

Blogger wolfe April 28, 2018 3:27 PM  

VD wrote:

Better re-read his response. He did NOT use that critic's numbers.

Critic: "white gentiles with an average IQ of 105 IQ"

Peterson: "the general population of mean of 100"


Still think he's not being disingenuous?


No, though I'm happy to admit I might be missing something material.

"200+ million white gentiles with an average IQ of 105" is the exact original quote and it makes no sense. Mean white US IQ is presumably about 100 and there are about 198m non-hispanic white Americans. (It IS disingenuous to ignore white hispanics and East Asians, but I don't fault Peterson for that at this time. If he continues to do so, then, yes.)

Is your argument that since he didn't use the 105 average IQ assertion he is not truly using the critics numbers, whereas mine is that he used 200m gentile whites?

His critic focused on 200m white gentiles; Peterson responded to that. He didn't trash the implausible 105 IQ assertion for that group; he seemed to me to be politely ignoring an obvious error.

Do you have any disagreement with my other assertions, i.e., that there are plausible reasons for you being too pessimistic about Ashkenazi IQ while being correct that it's well under 115?

In any event, you've persuaded me that the 115 number is very poorly founded. Thank you for that.

Blogger Uncle John's Band April 28, 2018 3:28 PM  

@ 17. Dave

"@UJB what's wrong with what Trid said?"

Didn't say it was wrong. I said no one cares what he'd rather Vox, or anyone, be doing.

OpenID nikephoros-ii April 28, 2018 3:34 PM  

@69:

Cerno was on Rubin's show in 2016, not long after Shapiro and Milo's first appearances.

As for why Rogan won't have him on, I think that has more to do with the fact that Cerno is basically a much smarter version and more red pill version of Rogan.

I have noticed that Shapiro seems to follow Peterson around like a puppy dog though.

Blogger Bradley Matthews April 28, 2018 3:41 PM  

I like Peterson, enjoyed his book. Has some interesting info and perspectives, but one should take what is useful, recognize what is not, and not make any man into an idol. I also like Taleb. Great books. Doesn't tolerate bullshitters.

Blogger S1AL April 28, 2018 3:52 PM  

"His critic focused on 200m white gentiles; Peterson responded to that. He didn't trash the implausible 105 IQ assertion for that group; he seemed to me to be politely ignoring an obvious error."

It's not an obvious error. I've posted the math here before. Using the best available current data, you're looking at 102+ for non-Hispanic whites in the USA.

Now, one possibility I hadn't considered before is that Ashkenazi IQ was actually 115... 60 years ago, when the general IQ was significantly lower due to the Flynn effect. Based on the scaling in that time period, I'd be completely unsurprised to discover that the measured IQ's were 115 then and 103-105 now.

Blogger cmbaileytstc April 28, 2018 3:54 PM  

Jordan Peterson telling White men to not use identity politics to back their own interests negates any good he has done, simple as that.

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener April 28, 2018 3:58 PM  

"Also, notice what Taleb dropped him over: tweeting about the Douma chemical attacks."

Looks like Peterson is taking the deep state's side on Syria and Taleb is appropriately pissed. Look at the neocon garbage Peterson is posting on Twitter. Anyone still think that he is genuinely on the right?

Blogger Resident Moron™ April 28, 2018 4:05 PM  

I bought Peterson's book. I just couldn't read it. Filling it up with evo-psych just so stories doubled the word count and cost but halved the utility of it. It's sitting on my Kindle at 14% and I expect it to stay there unless I get ship-wrecked.

Nonetheless I had some respect for a man willing to risk his livelihood and prosecution to stand up for his principles.

I, too, am totally stealing this line:

"Access to Whites is not a human right."

Gotta be some meme mileage in that baby.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother April 28, 2018 4:08 PM  

Sharpen the shiv to a fine point, and let's get to the real point:

"Access to white women is not a human right".

Blogger VD April 28, 2018 4:19 PM  

He was interviewed by feminist harpy Cathy Newman for Channel 4, and the results were epic. So epic, in fact, that it turned into a meme, and 3 months later, EVERY DAMN TWEET from said feminist harpy gets tons of humiliating replies.

So what? Milo did even better. Do you really think Cerno, or Stefan, or I could not easily do the same? Do you not understand that is why we are NEVER going to be permitted on any of those shows live?

Also, if he relies upon evo-psych, he is teaching historical fairy tales. Christopher Hallpike would utterly brutalize him. It's nonsense.

Blogger VD April 28, 2018 4:22 PM  

Do you have any disagreement with my other assertions, i.e., that there are plausible reasons for you being too pessimistic about Ashkenazi IQ while being correct that it's well under 115?

Yes. As I said, my numbers are a ceiling. I was being conservative by simply utilizing Flynn's estimate to illustrate the point.

Blogger szopen April 28, 2018 4:24 PM  

NO GOOGLES wrote:
He is not alt-right but he is still useful to the alt-right as sort of a gateway drug for normies.


That!

Sure, he is not alt-right. He is agnostic whether Christ resurrected in body (while still declaring himself Christian?!? IMO he is more like a theist), he is "classical liberal" and so on, he might have committed an error on Jewish IQ, but still: he openly speaks ideas which are pretty radical in the mainstream. He was interviewed by Stephen Molyneaux (which should tell you something about him too).

He attacks "white privilege". He attacks modern feminism. He attacks SJWs. Attack communism. Talks that there exist biological differences between sexes and ethnic groups. ARgues there are only two genders. He talks a lot about IQ. Attacks postmodernists (which I think means he attacks cultural marxists, though not sure whether he used that words).

Sure, that _should_ not be "radical" in a normal society, but I think given he lives in an effing Canada, he is as radical as university professor could possibly be. He was labeled far right! Surely ultimately his goals are not alt-right goals, but it seems

I mean, look at this pretty pill:

"Are today's black people guilty, because of their race, because African leaders were complicit in the slave trade? And, if not, why not? And, if so, what should be their punishment? And am I 1/4 innocent because I'm 1/4 British - given that the Brits ended the slave trade?"


Blogger Bogey April 28, 2018 4:45 PM  

Peterson predicted his own downfall, where it comes from may be the thing that surprises him. Congratulation Peterson fans it looks like you have the gaze of Sauron upon you now.

Blogger OGRE April 28, 2018 4:56 PM  

szopen wrote:
He is agnostic whether Christ resurrected in body (while still declaring himself Christian?!? IMO he is more like a theist)


I: Are you a Christian? Do you believe in God?

JP: I think the proper response to that is No, but I’m afraid He might exist.

http://nationalpost.com/feature/christie-blatchford-sits-down-with-warrior-for-common-sense-jordan-peterson

I: Do you believe Christ existed within the conception of the Trinity?

JP: That’s a harder question, because it starts to depend on what you mean by the Trinity. The problem with a question like that is that it assumes that the questioner, and the audience, and the answerer share the same conceptualisation of the categories.

So, I would say yes, but it’s a bounded yes because I have a particular conceptualisation of what the Trinity means.


I: Do you believe in the resurrection?

JP: [Sigh, pause] That’s… I am going to eventually finish my [voice slightly falters] lecture series on the Bible, and I hope I can delve into that with the depth that it requires.

I: You call yourself a Christian?

JP: I don’t; other people do.

I: Do you object to that?

JP: I don’t object to it, but it’s complicated.

I: So, it’s not unfair?

JP: It’s not unfair, but I’m not sure that what I mean by that is generally what is meant by that. I could give you a more specific example of that. You have an ethical responsibility if you are a Christian to imitate Christ. So, you think “What the hell does that mean? It’s not the Middle East two thousand years ago. What are you supposed to do? Put on a robe and parade around on the street?” That’s not what it means. It means something like you need to take responsibility for the evil in the world as if you were responsible for it.

That’s part of it. That’s the idea of taking the sins of the world unto yourself. And you need to understand that you determine the direction of the world, whether it’s toward heaven or hell, by your actions of speech, and you need to take responsibility for that. I would say that if you do those things then you’re a Christian, but I don’t think that that’s the way people generally conceptualise Christianity.


http://quillette.com/2018/01/27/walking-tightrope-chaos-order-interview-jordan-b-peterson/

So no, not a Christian. He wants a Christian world with Christian values, but he wants to do it without Christ. This is the height of hubris.

Blogger SidVic April 28, 2018 5:10 PM  

I think this JP stuff is gaining legs.
https://greyenlightenment.com/vox-day-v-jordan-peterson-on-jewish-iq/
A debate is in order. I would recommend that a neutral statistician is present.

Blogger Bogey April 28, 2018 5:10 PM  

@OGRE same argument Sam Harris has, he wants the benefits without the foundation.

Blogger Y. April 28, 2018 5:15 PM  

@VD

You have not demolished his arguments, nor the assertion that Ash. Jews have an average IQ over 110.

And furthermore, it's not just JBP saying this, it's also Gregory Cochran. Someone with whom you really ought to spar intellectually if you want to keep in shape.

Anyways, how can you account for the 'myth' of Jewish intelligence when you take into account that the Soviet top chess player ethnicities are perfectly in line with the high IQ assumption/theory.

You do remember that link by La Griffe Du Lion I posted here.

There was no way back then to cheat in chess. No way to show favoritism, and Russians after the early 1920's were pretty anti-semitic. Stalin certainly was, and Jews were not lionized later on either.

>>Want to bet? Keep annoying me about the Canadian Crier and I will begin looking into dissecting Peterson as thoroughly as I've vivisected Harris, Dawkins, and others. My instincts already suggest that there will be no shortage of holes in his poorly-researched arguments. The fact that Taleb is now of a similar mind tends to confirm my suspicions.
<<

Please do so. Peterson is one of the rare people willing to having made a mistake. And he will appreciate if you help him close holes in his arguments. Thus your formidable intellect would serve a noble cause.


>>Vox is not shatting on anyone and does not DO such.<<

Pardon me, but the rhetoric he used when dismissing Peterson's claims on the JQ was extremely rude, on par with what I've seen in leftist magazines. Hence my use of the expression 'shitting on'.

If my English isn't the best, it is perhaps because it's only my third best language, and I strongly suspect few here are fluent in Czech or Slovak.

Blogger S'mon April 28, 2018 5:16 PM  

"but my wife is hotter"

And that's the real trick, isn't it?

Blogger VD April 28, 2018 5:24 PM  

You have not demolished his arguments, nor the assertion that Ash. Jews have an average IQ over 110.

I most certainly have. Here is a question for you: Do you assert that most Israeli Jews have an average IQ lower than African-Americans? Answer it Yes or No. No evasions.

And furthermore, it's not just JBP saying this, it's also Gregory Cochran. Someone with whom you really ought to spar intellectually if you want to keep in shape.

Then both Jordan Peterson and Gregory Cochran are hateful anti-Semites who are calling most Israeli Jews more stupid than Africans. I'm happy to debate either of them. Set it up, sport. I'll be there. Will your cowardly heroes?

Peterson is one of the rare people willing to having made a mistake. And he will appreciate if you help him close holes in his arguments.

I haven't seen him admit it yet. And I very much doubt you want to see how badly I can tear apart your hero. Now that I know he's an evo-psych guy in addition to a Junghead, I am certain I can tear apart his entire scheme. Conclusively. Assume, just for the moment, that I genuinely can do it, that I am not exaggerating. Are you certain that is what you want?

Pardon me, but the rhetoric he used when dismissing Peterson's claims on the JQ was extremely rude, on par with what I've seen in leftist magazines.

I'm not the one who was running around calling people cowardly failures unprovoked. Did you already take Peterson to task for that? Yes or no?

You're a fan of his, not a fan of mine. Why have you not done so?



Blogger Vox's Video Editor April 28, 2018 5:27 PM  

Sometimes these takedowns can be shocking for people with less experience with these people than Vox. 'Whoa, I didn't perceive that guy as a liar or fraud.' That's because you haven't been dealing with them on a regular basis for literally decades. If you can't be persuaded by his cold logic or are unable to follow it because of the IQ gap, you can trust his discernment. Or not, at your peril. I've never been led astray by following his advice.

Blogger VD April 28, 2018 5:27 PM  

Grey Enlightenment is wrong about this part.

This may apply for jobs that require emotional intelligence, but I don’t believe IQ-intensive fields such as mathematics and physics have diminishing or negative returns for IQs beyond a certain threshold. Vox is perhaps falling for the same fallacy perpetuated by Gladwell that IQ becomes less useful beyond a certain threshold (such as 120).

He clearly didn't read the source material. He's failing to recognize that IQ-intensive fields are just as subject to human resources and management as everything else.

As for the stupid Nobel Prize argument, I merely observe that Paul Krugman is a Jew who has one, or rather, an equivalent that is counted in debates on this subject.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine April 28, 2018 5:32 PM  

"and Russians after the early 1920's were pretty anti-semitic. Stalin certainly was"

Stalin, Lenin, Trotsky...

What's the other thing all these guys have in common?

That any children of theirs (legitimate children, in Stalin's case) would (((be))).

"Pardon me, but the rhetoric he used when dismissing Peterson's claims on the JQ was extremely rude"

So were the epithets leveled at JP's fairly critiquing commenters. Suck it up, buttercup, you're full of it already, a bit more won't hurt you.

Blogger SciVo April 28, 2018 5:35 PM  

I've watched a few videos and thought he said some good things, but when I read him wanting to start an online university to provide a "more balanced" alternative to "left wing" traditional campuses, that told me exactly where he was politically. Just another soft-hearted fool who thinks he can counter radical, cultic leftism with reasonable, moderate centrism. (Or maybe he knows that's a losing play, but thinks that come the revolution, he won't go to the Happy Fun Adult Education Camp because dictatorial godless commies are generally satisfied with half agreement.)

Blogger Unknown April 28, 2018 5:36 PM  

@ szopen

The Brits were the key beneficiaries of the modern slave trade. Check out the South Sea Bubble, its chief commodity, its chief investor, and its chief reason for collapsing. Let me summarise: the British had more debt they could service after a couple of wars in Europe and needed money badly. The slave-driven sugar trade was the most profitable at the time, so the Bank of England exchanged national debt with shares in a company that profited heavily from it. The British penchant for sugar, blaxploitation and hiding the truth sent the stock into the stratosphere, resulting in overinflation and eventual collapse of the stock and then the company as the people pulled out. Rather then end the slave trade for moral purposes, it was, as always with the AdamSmithian Brits, driven by an aversion to that kind of market risk. It was the Quantitive Easing of its day. Doesn't stop them (and other whites by association) from taking mostly undeserved moral credit for it and spinning historiography to cover up the truth. The Brits are very good at hiding their own shit.

Blogger wolfe April 28, 2018 5:49 PM  

I think Vox is partly wrong on this; I still don't think he's responded credibly to my arguments. (what aspect of Flynn's work do you mean? Lynn's work certainly seems to suggest ca 110) But I think he's [Vox] right about the central issue of IQ for Ashkenazis being considerably lower than 115, and that shatters the arguments far more than 5 points [accepting my position, not Vox's] would seem to.

Pardon me, but the rhetoric he used when dismissing Peterson's claims on the JQ was extremely rude, on par with what I've seen in leftist magazines. Hence my use of the expression 'shitting on'.
So did I. But looking at what JBP said, he was equally a rhetorical asshole. Vox's rhetoric is therefore merited.



Blogger SidVic April 28, 2018 5:54 PM  

world chess champions (54 percent-jew) from grey. you either win at chess or you don't. Incidentally I missed any documentation from VD about his claims that super High IQ is excluded from elite academic professions. Personally i've found it pretty easy to fake mediocrity- some would say too easy:)

Blogger Resident Moron™ April 28, 2018 5:57 PM  

Paul Krugman - ouch!

That's gonna leave a mark.

Blogger Lovekraft April 28, 2018 5:58 PM  

Western culture is in crisis, and whether is survives is in serious doubt. It already is reduced to commercialism, addiction en masse, state control/surveillance etc etc. And that isn't even bringing up the looming demographic crisis that feminism's low birth rates and breeding colonies of the third world immigrants is going to introduce.

No. Democracy means nothing when the average citizen is either too afraid or disillusioned to start forming real grass-roots movements.

Which brings us to VD and JP and common ground, because I bring up the phrases 'holding the bag' or 'controlling the narrative.'

Western culture has been dominated by certain themes, and a very powerful group intends to keep them running. I argue that these themes are poisonous and must be neutralized, or eliminated.

There's numerous ways to do this, and this is where I think the VD/JP argument lays. Correct me if I'm wrong, VD, but is it fair for me to assume that you do not see JP as making sufficient strides (or worse, he's just throwing up more distraction) in preventing 'our side' from winning?

Blogger S1AL April 28, 2018 6:02 PM  

For comparison, one can also consider the case of Armenian (Christian) diasporans. They have many similar traits - high-IQ, high levels of education, significantly more religious, staggeringly high average involv, etc.

Now consider that there are potentially 2 million Armenian-descended individuals in the United States.

How often do you hear about them, and how many are in politics?

And there you have the key distinction.

Blogger Vox's Video Editor April 28, 2018 6:05 PM  

Not an ally:
https://twitter.com/jordanbpeterson/status/990350821324832768

Blogger VD April 28, 2018 6:05 PM  

world chess champions (54 percent-jew) from grey. you either win at chess or you don't. Incidentally I missed any documentation from VD about his claims that super High IQ is excluded from elite academic professions. Personally i've found it pretty easy to fake mediocrity- some would say too easy:)

World chess champions are totally irrelevant for the same reason that world go champions are irrelevant. Russian Jews played a lot more chess than other people. And your inability to find the relevant links and source material on this blog are not my concern.

Correct me if I'm wrong, VD, but is it fair for me to assume that you do not see JP as making sufficient strides (or worse, he's just throwing up more distraction) in preventing 'our side' from winning?

You're wrong. I don't pay any attention to Jordan Peterson at all. WTF is wrong with all of you people? What part of "I don't care about Jordan Peterson" is hard to grasp? If Pat Buchanan suddenly starts babbling about how the sky is green and that is why the Papua New Guineans are the most populous people on Earth, I'll hit him for that too.

Blogger Unknown April 28, 2018 6:09 PM  

There are a fair number of Armenians in local politics here and there, but on the national scene, not many at all. The last one known nationally might have been George Deukmejian.

Blogger DonReynolds April 28, 2018 6:13 PM  

Unknown wrote:@ szopen

The Brits were the key beneficiaries of the modern slave trade...
Doesn't stop them (and other whites by association) from taking mostly undeserved moral credit for it and spinning historiography to cover up the truth. The Brits are very good at hiding their own shit.


Agree completely.
The slave-picked cotton was not grown in the South for domestic consumption. That cotton was sold to textile manufacturers in the North and (mostly) in Great Britain, up to and during and after the civil war. If either buyer had been in the least bit squeamish about the fact that so much of this raw cotton was planted and picked by Negro slaves, they never said anything about it. The buyers of cotton could have ended slavery by refusing to buy cotton that had been picked by slaves. Yes, there was a great deal of cotton that was produced by family farms as a cash crop without the benefit of slave labor. Such a moral position would have ended much of slavery without a civil war.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother April 28, 2018 6:14 PM  

The most important Armenian in American politics today is Kim Kardashian .

OpenID nikephoros-ii April 28, 2018 6:25 PM  

@84:

I wasn't aware that Peterson didn't believe in God or consider himself a Christian.

Even Jung debunked the myth of secular Christian morality. Peterson does a great job of watering down and perverting his source material.

"The individual who is not anchored in God can offer no resistance to the physical and moral blandishments of the world. For this he needs the evidence of inner, transcendent experience which alone can protect him from the otherwise inevitable submersion in the mas. Merely intellectual or even moral insight into the stultification and moral irresponsibility of the mass man is a negative recognition only and amounts to not much more than a wavering on the road to the atomization of the individual. It lacks the driving force of religious conviction, since it is merely rational."

Blogger SidVic April 28, 2018 6:26 PM  

World chess champions are totally irrelevant for the same reason that world go champions are irrelevant. Russian Jews played a lot more chess than other people. And your inability to find the relevant links and source material on this blog are not my concern.
I'm unconvinced Vox, Chess is a fairly widely-played game; i don't know what GO is? But i will concede that "cultural factors" might explain the phenomena of jew grandmaster dominance. As to the high IQ exclusion for the elite academic feilds- I would respectfully ask if you, or other readers, have documentation (preferably peer-reviewed) of this phenomena. I begin to expect that you have pulled it from your ass.

I'm genuinely curious about this matter. Plus i've failed to find a search function on this blog.

Blogger szopen April 28, 2018 6:34 PM  

One minor point: I might be mistaken, I do not think 107.5 comes from Flynn. I think it came from Lynn. As Wolfe in @48 noticed, the same Lynn later estimated Ashkenazi IQ to be 110. The Israel national IQ also came from Lynn (and coauthors)

Blogger SciVo April 28, 2018 6:52 PM  

SidVic wrote:I'm genuinely curious about this matter. Plus i've failed to find a search function on this blog.

Start with this, then append your keywords: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=site%3Avoxday.blogspot.com

Blogger SciVo April 28, 2018 6:52 PM  

linkified

Blogger S. Thermite April 28, 2018 6:56 PM  

"i don't know what GO is?...I would respectfully ask if you, or other readers, have documentation (preferably peer-reviewed) of this phenomena. I begin to expect that you have pulled it from your ass...i've failed to find a search function on this blog."

Dude...can't tell if trolling or really that stupid. Especially after your comment that you find it easy to fake mediocrity...

Google GO, try accessing this blog with something other than a smartphone browser, and once [if?] you find the search function search for "peer review."

Blogger SidVic April 28, 2018 6:58 PM  

109- thanks buddy! i'm dinosaur.

OpenID nikephoros-ii April 28, 2018 7:04 PM  

The Jewish chess champions figure is just one of those stats that people throw out there without knowing what they're talking about.

That figure includes people like Kasparov and Aronian, who had Jew fathers/gentile mothers, and Fischer, who had a Jew mother/gentile father.

If Jewish IQ is so high, why are the best "Jewish" chess players not even fully Jewish?

And Kasparov and Aronian are the only two "Jews" in the top 10 all-time ELO and FIDE rankings.

Again, why do the best "Jewish" chess players have gentile mothers?

There also hasn't been Jewish champion since the turn of the century, and they're not included among today's best players, which includes a Norwegian, Italian-American, Chinese-American, Japanese-American, Indian, etc. I can't think of any particularly notable Jewish players.

Like Vox pointed out, the Soviets were just dominant at chess from the mid-20th century to the fall of the USSR. The same was true for hockey.

How many medals have the Russian hockey team won since then?

Blogger SidVic April 28, 2018 7:04 PM  

110 do you find it hard to fake mediocrity- ahem, i suspect you do!

Blogger VD April 28, 2018 7:11 PM  

I'm unconvinced Vox

I don't care.

I'm genuinely curious about this matter.

I don't care.

Plus i've failed to find a search function on this blog.

And you're going to question me about anything? You are FAR too short for this ride.

Blogger Bogey April 28, 2018 7:15 PM  

lol

Blogger TM Lutas April 28, 2018 7:23 PM  

Why, oh why won't people just do the science and let the chips fall where they may?

I don't care about jewish intelligence. It is what it is and I think that if I have a worldview that can't stand the full range of possibilities, then I have a seriously deficient personal philosophy of life.

But this thread has made it apparent to me that some people *really care* about the question. So go fund a study. Really, go and put up some shekels and publish an objective study that settles the question definitively and debate the study model ahead of time until you hit consensus. When everybody, left, right, and center agree on the study, go fund it and document the heck out of it so that people don't cheat.

Now, get an entirely different group of people to replicate it. Repeat until the stupid debate goes away, then we can concentrate on things that are more vital to the long term chances of humanity than how intelligent or not some subgroup is.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother April 28, 2018 7:34 PM  

Jewish intelligence is not going to magically disappear or appear if Vox or JP win the argument. It is what it is. This is just like everyone declaring themselves to be Sigma because no one understands them and they were black.

If your boy is wrong, he's wrong. Hand waving and craziness is just going to dig your holes deeper. An inability to accept reality is classic gamma.

Recognize this, accept reality, and adjust appropriately.

Blogger pyrrhus April 28, 2018 7:56 PM  

"and Russians after the early 1920's were pretty anti-semitic. Stalin certainly was"

Could be, but the leadership of the Communist party under Lenin was 85% Jewish, and they collectively despised the white Russian middle class, and wiped out much of it, including their children, who were often raped first.

Blogger pyrrhus April 28, 2018 8:04 PM  

As to the Jewish chess champions, if Jewish IQ is so high, why aren't they contending for the championship now? Answer--because other high IQ groups, including whites, high caste Indians, and Asians, are now playing chess. Chess was almost unknown in most of Asia until fairly recently...A majority of my chess parents, a pretty high IQ lot by any measure, had little or no knowledge of the game. But they were thrilled that their kids were learning it.

Blogger CK April 28, 2018 8:08 PM  

I just checked out a video segment where he specifically praises William Buckley and Ben Shapiro for separating themselves from the David Dukes and Charlottesville types.

He says the left needs to do the same thing to their extremists. He was calling for his audience to become peacemakers. He is lukewarm just as Vox and the Ilk suspect.

Quick assumption, I personally think he is simply a self help author who is using conflict to sell himself, but that might be unfair because I don't know him or much about him.

Oh yeah, he says religion was created because of drug use.

Blogger Y. April 28, 2018 8:29 PM  

@VD

>I most certainly have. Here is a question for you: Do you assert that most Israeli Jews have an average IQ lower than African-Americans? Answer it Yes or No. No evasions.

It's complete nonsense that literally cannot be true. We've all seen how cities run by African Americans looks like.

Confusion likely stems from laymen incorrectly comparing IQ scores that were normed to different ethnics.


>> And I very much doubt you want to see how badly I can tear apart your hero. Now that I know he's an evo-psych guy in addition to a Junghead, I am certain I can tear apart his entire scheme. Conclusively. Assume, just for the moment, that I genuinely can do it, that I am not exaggerating. Are you certain that is what you want?<<

FYI, I'm one of those guys who enjoys getting whipped. Ecstasy and calm happiness follows excruciating pain. It's all just chemicals acting on the brain, acting on the soul. I find it very funny that some religious people do it too, and claim it's mystical or something. Are their endogenous opiates more mystical than mine? Different?

Go right ahead and do it.

I want to see it.

Blogger ghostfromplanetspook April 28, 2018 8:37 PM  

Y. wrote:@VD

>I most certainly have. Here is a question for you: Do you assert that most Israeli Jews have an average IQ lower than African-Americans? Answer it Yes or No. No evasions.

It's complete nonsense that literally cannot be true. We've all seen how cities run by African Americans looks like.

Confusion likely stems from laymen incorrectly comparing IQ scores that were normed to different ethnics.

>> And I very much doubt you want to see how badly I can tear apart your hero. Now that I know he's an evo-psych guy in addition to a Junghead, I am certain I can tear apart his entire scheme. Conclusively. Assume, just for the moment, that I genuinely can do it, that I am not exaggerating. Are you certain that is what you want?<<

FYI, I'm one of those guys who enjoys getting whipped. Ecstasy and calm happiness follows excruciating pain. It's all just chemicals acting on the brain, acting on the soul. I find it very funny that some religious people do it too, and claim it's mystical or something. Are their endogenous opiates more mystical than mine? Different?

Go right ahead and do it.

I want to see it.



If this is a troll you win a cookie

Blogger CK April 28, 2018 8:38 PM  

This must be why you people don't like winning yet will never admit defeat.

Losing feels good.

Blogger VD April 28, 2018 8:38 PM  

It's complete nonsense that literally cannot be true. We've all seen how cities run by African Americans looks like.

Then you just conceded the argument. Ashkenazi mean IQ cannot possibly be 115. If it is 115, then the average Jewish Israeli IQ is 98.8 and the average Sephardic/Mizrahi IQ is 84.2.

OpenID nikephoros-ii April 28, 2018 9:09 PM  

@119:

The argument was that Jews are so IQ that they disproportionately outcompete whites, East Asians, Indians, etc. in every other field and chess is an example of a field that they dominate that's not nepotistic.

But the numbers simply do not support that argument.

https://ratings.fide.com/topfed.phtml

Russia currently has 3x times more titled players than the US, with a third of the population and a fraction of the Ashkenazi Jews, and their top 10 players have an average rating 50+ points higher than the top 10 US players. Their rating is also 120 points higher than Israel’s.

Hungary has twice as many titled players and a higher average rating than Israel, despite similar population size and 40x less Ashkenazi.

A few other countries that have higher average ratings than Israel:

- Ukraine
- Poland
- Armenia
- Azerbaijan

What can we gather from these numbers?

1. Former Soviet and Eastern Bloc countries have strong chess cultures.
2. Ashkenazi outside of the Soviet/Eastern Bloc are LESS represented among elite chess players than they are in other fields.

America has more GMs than any country outside of Russia and arguably 3 of the 5 best current players in the world. Here’s are the top rated FIDE players in the US: https://ratings.fide.com/topfed.phtml?ina=1&country=USA

How many in the top 10 are Jewish? As far as I can tell, 0. There’s plenty of East Asians though.

How is that possible for a population that is supposedly so much smarter than gentiles that they make up 25 to 50% of the American finance, media, science, etc. fields?

Like I said, the people throwing out chess don’t know what they’re talking about, because not only does it not prove their argument, it actually debunks it.

OpenID nikephoros-ii April 28, 2018 9:22 PM  

Actually, the only player in the top 30 American rated players I could identify as Jewish is Gregory Kaidanov, who's 58. Though I'm just cross referencing that list with a list of Jewish chess players, so I could have missed someone.

So much for chess proving Ashkenazi IQ

Blogger Bilroy April 28, 2018 10:02 PM  

Wow, Vox. What a take-down. I've been a fan of JBP for a while but have been growing frustrated with, for want of better terms, his Semitic fetish.

I think all I really found interesting about Jordan was his take on the Christian creation myth and its tying in with the theory of evolution. This is all my interest is limited to however; I've come to learn that he, just like Ben Shapiro, is what is meant by controlled opposition.

If you're reading this Vox - if there's anything of value to be discussed about JBP's philosophy, it's his analysis of the Biblical creation myth. I know you don't really consume video media, so I'll try to summarise it with bullets:

- The story of Adam and Eve is a mythological account of man's evolution from tree-dwelling apes to the modern human form (it's an old story - trans-specially old)
- The fruit and the snake repressent the two driving forces for human evolution (both being tied to the Tree of Knowledge)
- The development of the frontal lobe in humans corresponds to the cataclysmic event of eating from the Tree of Knowledge, and was driven by the selection pressure for man to gather food and be wary of predator.
- This development lead to the fall of man; being able to conceive of the future, he now understands his true vulnerability as well as his oppurtunities, and by extension, the vulnerability of others as well as their opportunities. He now has knowledge of good and evil, being able to conceive and act in accordance with both.

I remember reading John C Wright touching on similar themes. Please, Vox - can we get a discussion of more Biblical interpretations of Genesis? I'd love to hear more about your views on the Bible.

P.S. Excuse any excessive lack of discpline in this post: I've had a few ales.

Blogger R Webfoot April 28, 2018 10:05 PM  

"Only the most cynical, hopeless philosophy insists that reality could be improved through falsification. [...] It’s not vision. It is instead willful blindness. It’s the worst sort of lie. It’s subtle. It avails itself of easy rationalizations. Willful blindness is the refusal to know something that could be known. It’s refusal to admit that the knocking sound means someone at the door. It’s refusal to acknowledge the eight-hundred-pound gorilla in the room, the elephant under the carpet, the skeleton in the closet. Unless telling the truth would require agreeing with Nazis and making Jews angry, lol suck it cowards." - Judeo-Peterson

Blogger CK April 28, 2018 10:41 PM  

He also said all religious faith was conceived during drug use.

Blogger Darwinite April 28, 2018 10:49 PM  

Watching the latest darkstream on JBP, there’s a minor point I’d like to take issue with - the reference to the heritage of Greco-Roman law. I’ve criticized this with Molyneux, too. Unless you are specifically referring to the Louisiana Civil Code, the better reference is to the Common Law, or “The Rights of Englishmen”.

Common Law is antithetical to Roman Law, as it is founded in God’s Natural Law, maintained by precedent, and mediated through local juries whose responsibility it is to determine the nature and validity of the Law, and whether it has been infringed. Put simply: Greek and Roman law traditions govern people as the property of the state, while the Common Law allows free men to govern themselves.

The Common Law predates the Constitution, it predates the Glorious Revolution, it predates Magna Carta, it predates the Kings of England. Most of all, it is inherited, it is my birthright. It has been passed down to me in an unbroken chain for over a thousand years. It travels with me, wherever I go; if my grandchildren colonize Mars, the Common Law will go with them in their hearts and minds because I will have played my part in instilling it there.

Blogger Y. April 28, 2018 11:12 PM  

@VD

Israel is only 25% Ashkenazi or so. There's 20% of Arabs, rest are sephardic Jews who weren't selected for higher IQs.

So for example ~ 0,25*115 + 0,75*95 = 100 average IQ.

So if Sephardic Jews, Arabs are a bit dimmer than typical European, the IQ scores still make sense.

Where did you get the 84 anyways?

Blogger Bobiojimbo April 28, 2018 11:18 PM  

"Those who are accusing me of wanting to tear down Peterson should probably consider what happened the last time I was falsely accused of something, namely, gaming a certain collection of literary awards. Do you really want me to conclusively demonstrate that I was not doing anything of the sort by showing you what the real thing looks like?"

Yes. It scares me, but yes.

@127 "Please, Vox - can we get a discussion of more Biblical interpretations of Genesis? I'd love to hear more about your views on the Bible."

I second this. I understand you're busy, VD, so you may not have time for this. Perhaps you could link to some very good Christian, Biblical scholars.

Blogger LP999-16 April 29, 2018 1:24 AM  

Here Y goes again with numbers.

Y, I'm familiar with JP's work at youtube, I really doubt anyone hates him so to speak around here, its just a matter of words and observations.

I dont read where Vox is "taking down" JP or is jealous, those are distractions, the discussion regard the Jewish matter and numbers.

Blogger Resident Moron™ April 29, 2018 1:59 AM  

Squirrels gather food and are wary of predators but rarely become chess grandmasters ...

Blogger Kona Commuter April 29, 2018 3:39 AM  

This is my take as well. The hour is late and we are well past the easy solutions.

Find the greatest MMA fighter of all time and pit him against 50 motivated thugs (who attack him when he's not expecting it to boot). Now try that when the MMA fighter be around his friends training at his gym. Peterson is positioning us for the first scenario but he full well knows what's coming

cmbaileytstc wrote:Jordan Peterson telling White men to not use identity politics to back their own interests negates any good he has done, simple as that.

Blogger szopen April 29, 2018 4:21 AM  

@131

Some data for a discussion:

(1) Israel is 20% Arab, 5% of "other minorities" (I assume they are similar to Arab in mental capabilities)

(2) It's hard to say what is exactly Jewish percentage wrt Ashkenazi/Sephardim/Mizrahi, because googled data does not add up.

Israel has 6.3 milion Jews, of which 2.8 are Ashkenazi, 1.4 are Sephardim and ... 3.2 are Mizrahi (!?). However, google tells me Mizrahi and Sephardim are overlapping category. So... let's say Mizrahi = 3.2-1.4=1.8 or Mizrahi = 6.3-2.8-1.4=2.1. Let's take the first number and let's the missing Jews lump into "average Jews category". There are Ethiopian Jews with probably very low IQ< but there are only 130k of them, so I doubt they would make much difference.

(3) There is highintermarriage in Israel, meaning most likely Ashkanazi are not full-blooded Ashkenazi, Sephardim not full blooded Sephardim etc.

(4) The IQ as given by Lynn are: Ashkenazi 110, Sephardim 98, Mizrahi 91. Arab IQ can be estimated by looking into neighbouring Jordania as 84 - maybe few points higher because most likely they are more affluent in Israel and we can give environment ability to get few more points by better nutrition etc

BOTH "95" for Israel AND the numbers for Ashkenazi, Sephardim and Mizrahi come from Lynn, just from different books/articles.

So:
(0.25*84+0.33*110+0.21*98+0.21*91)
96.99

And with Ashk IQ=107
(0.25*84+0.33*107+0.21*98+0.21*91)
96.00

In both cases Israel's national IQ is above "95", so either this number is wrong, Sephardim IQ is lower (but if you agree to lower Sephardim IQ to get 95, why not agree it even more to allow for higher Ashkenazi IQ of 110?). It seems however that 115 is untenable with given assumptions, so to get it you would have argue "Ashkenazi Jews in Isreal are not pure Ashkenazi, but a mix with lower IQ than Ashkenazis in USA", or Isreal national IQ is wrong.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine April 29, 2018 4:22 AM  

"FYI, I'm one of those guys who enjoys getting whipped."

You could have just said this at the beginning, but then again, that would have denied you further masochistic ecstasy I suppose. That being said, I classify you a subset of attention-seeker and refuse to pay your rent further in that regard.

Blogger szopen April 29, 2018 4:57 AM  

@136
Damn, I made a stupid mistake and despite having intention to do otherwise, somehow I lumped "missing" Jews (3-4%) with Sephardim. That changes the calculations a bit:

with AshkIq=107
(0.25*84+0.33*107+0.16*98+0.05*95+0.21*91)
95.85

And with AshkIq=110
(0.25*84+0.33*110+0.16*98+0.05*95+0.21*91)
96.84

Blogger VD April 29, 2018 5:23 AM  

So if Sephardic Jews, Arabs are a bit dimmer than typical European, the IQ scores still make sense.

Your numbers are wrong and you're stupid, Y. The Israeli populations and their average IQs are as follows, given the mythical 115 IQ.

Ashkenazi: 35.4 percent 115
Other Jew: 39.1 percent 84.2
Arab (Jordan): 25.5 percent 84

So, unless you believe that most Israeli Jews are more than a standard deviation less intelligent than Europeans (102), and are less intelligent than African-Americans (85), Ashkenazi Jews cannot possibly have an average or mean IQ of 115.

Stop trying to defend Peterson on this subject here. He's wrong, he's dishonest, and he lacks intellectual integrity. And the fact that you are still trying to argue about this and change the relevant numbers means you are too.

Blogger Dirk Manly April 29, 2018 5:42 AM  

@46

"I would sooner move to Maryland than annex Canada.
Their culture isn't compatible with ours .
I've know my share of them, Albertans specifically. And even they have the cuckish overly polite nature that watches their national identiy erode."

And they (especially Ontarioans) think persona firearms are the embodiment of evil.

Blogger Dirk Manly April 29, 2018 7:01 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Dirk Manly April 29, 2018 7:03 AM  

@54

"As an anime lover and an anime gaming enthusiast,"
-------^^^^^^^^^^^--------^^^^^^^^^^^^

... I think I see the problem

"I have a lot of respect for Peterson."

...and the all too-predictable results.

Blogger Dirk Manly April 29, 2018 8:13 AM  

@54

"Under his guidance, I hope to finally move on from anime and start engaging with real life before the year is out."

A year?

Dude, get off your damned ass, get out of the house, and just meet people. Here's an interesting game to play with yourself -- before you even start a conversation, set a goal of finding out 1, 2, or 3 particular pieces of information about that person (and I don't mean "what's your name?" I mean things that require some conversation before you can get to them. For example, if it's a woman, then a goal of information to find out could be who was her first boyfriend, and what was he like?

Having such goals makes it IMPERATIVE that you pay attention to everything she says, and also forces you to not do the typical guy thing (talking way too much about yourself, and basically spending the entire conversation inside your own head, rather than getting into hers).

This is not nearly as difficult as you think, it certainly does not take "hopefully, before the year
is out."

I used to plan my entire schedule around what was on TV when (this was back in the 1970s, when a non-programmable VCR cost as much as a car.

In 1983, I moved from my parents home into a dorm at Purdue University. After spending a couple hours unpacking stuff...who am I kidding, probably 45 minutes. At the time, the dorms had no air conditioning, just (steam) radiators for the cold months. Some people on my floor brought TV's. We didn't have a spare TV in the house, so I didn't bring one. Not that it mattered -- the available channels in West Lafayette, IN (even with the extra channels available through a wall cable that connected to an antenna tower which would pick up stations from Chicago and Indianapolis) and programming was the then-standard ABC/CBS/NBC network programming, plus some local fare.

Anyways, about 6-8 weeks into the semester, one Saturday afternoon, the football team (lousy that year) was playing an away game [at that time, student fees included football season tickets], so I went down to the TV lounge with some homework to work on (calculus, chemistry.. )

This was the first time in over 40 days that I had specifically went to a TV with the intent of watching(*) something on the boob-tube, and frankly, having left the thrall of TV, I realized that it was all shit.

Since then, I have seen exactly 1 TV series actually worth going out of my way to watch; "Turn!" (the historical series on Washington's NYC-Long Island spy network), with honorable mentions for "Southpark", "Halt & Catch Fire", and the early 80's British anti-SitCom, "The Young Ones"


(*) in contrast to being in someone's room in the evening, and David Letterman's monologue being on in the background.

Blogger Avalanche April 29, 2018 8:33 AM  

@120 "Charlottesville types."

This is where I don't entirely part ways with, but step well back from, Peterson. I see him as uneducated but not malicious about an aspect he has apparently has had neither time nor interest in learning the truth of. He has swallowed whole the descriptions and positions the left "assigns to" our C-Ville folks. He does not recognize -- I'm guessing he has never even thought about -- the tiki torch parade that was White Euro-derived men objecting to the violent/physical erasure of their heritage and forebears.

And yet Peterson had a vicious outraged reactions to the insult by a (dot-indian) journo to his close friend, a non-literate (which is apparently part of his attraction for Peterson?) First Nations artist. Peterson sees and deeply supports his friend's connection to his heritage; but is blind to our folks wanting the same.

I believe this is a common-enough conflict between the friends and positions and information he (or any of us) knows, and the people he slurs without knowing that he does not know anything about them. Because Peterson has (apparently) read mostly (and a huge amount of) the 'fiction' written by the winners (both WWII and Soviet/Communism), that is his basis of understanding. He has not (yet?) gone further than that.

I'd suggest we do not yet know if Peterson can -- or will -- go further than the mainstream manipulation he has accepted. Because of his (okay: seeming) commitment to truth, and his actions so far on the basis of that commitment, I think he can be awakened.

Whether or not he dares to speak those truths... well, we're back to Ernst Zundel being smuggled out of the U.S. (by U.S. "law enforcement"), away from his American wife (and the lawyer handling his asylum case), to Canada (to a Canadian jail) where he was tried again and sent to jail in Germany for 5 years, for non-violent words and publications that were not illegal in the U.S. And that was 13 years ago, when it was not as easy as now to railroad folks. (And then Zundel's lawyer was also sentenced to German jail for what she said in defending him in court!)

I do not deny Peterson's wrongness in believing the lies about jewish IQ. I do not deny he was/is an idiot for swallowing (and repeating) the slurs against our side. However, I do not believe he is thereby useless (or a detriment) for our side. He is an excellent gateway drug for our young men, looking for a path out of hopelessness. I would analogize him to methadone: our young men are on a path to death. Peterson is a bad drug: he's not a cure, he’s a crutch to help them pull back from the death they are sliding into. Some, probably most, will use the crutch to end their addiction to the deadly path; some will come only so far as to not die from the leftist (brain-injuring) drug they've been force-fed, but no farther. (This is also Jared Taylor's "flaw" – except it's not. Salvage the injured as far as they can be brought. It's triage.) And some will get addicted to Peterson's individualism and atomization and never get off the "methadone."

Blogger VD April 29, 2018 11:08 AM  

Go away, Y. You are done here. Your arguments have been systematically refuted, you have refused to accept facts and logic, and I am not going to tolerate any more of your inept attempts to defend Jordan Peterson.

Neither I nor anyone else care about how anything "seems" to you.

I am not here to fix broken minds. Go back to Peterson's site. You clearly need more fixing.

Blogger VD April 29, 2018 11:10 AM  

However, I do not believe he is thereby useless (or a detriment) for our side. He is an excellent gateway drug for our young men, looking for a path out of hopelessness.

The more I have learned about him, the more I suspect he is an enemy. He openly brags about the young men he turns away from the Alt-Right.

As someone said, he is a blue pill with a red coating.

Blogger Dave April 29, 2018 11:56 AM  

I am not here to fix broken minds. Go back to Peterson's site. You clearly need more fixing.

I don't know how you do it. I'm astonished how much leeway you allow sometimes for such tediousness. Then again, you undoubtedly witness the same with some of us regular commenters from time to time.

Blogger John Fuerst April 29, 2018 9:39 PM  

I more or less agree with Vox. I collaborate with Richard Lynn and I am familiar with the literature and most of the studies (both reported and not).

As for Israel, on international tests, Hebrew speakers (Jews) score around the level of White Europeans, while Arab speakers score around that of other Middle Easterners (around 1+ standard deviation below the European White mean). See, for example, "Why Israel does poorly in the PISA exams – perceptions versus reality (2017)", and the Taub Centers’ “State of the nation picture (2014/2017)” reports.

For example, the non- Haredi Jewish PISA 2012 math average was 489 (SD ~93), for White Americans for the same year it was 506 (SD 83). For Israel and the US as a whole, the means and SDs were, respectively, 481 (SD 90) and 466 (SD 105).
There is year to year variability. But it is safe to say that on international math, reading, and science exams, Israeli Jews do no better than Whites in typical Western countries. Note, these figures exclude most Haredi Jews who both do rather poor on exams (see the Taub Center's reports) and who are around 80% Ashk. Thus, the testing samples tend to be less Ashk than the general population, but the excluded Ashk are substantially less proficient than average.)

Thus, as Vox notes, if one argues that Ashk Israeli come in at around 115, one has to maintain that non-Ashk Jews come in around 85. Yet, this latter conjecture is inconsistent with the variance among Jews (e.g., Figure 2, 2017 paper) and, more notably, the national scores at the 98th percentile (e.g., Figure 4, 2017 paper), a point which can be shown quantitatively. The relatively high standard deviation among Israeli Jews (about 93 versus the American White 83) does suggest subgroup differences, though.

Of course, one could make ad hoc accounts for why Ashk Jews in Israel seemingly do worse that Ashk Jews in the U.S. and ad hoc accounts for why the meta-analytic American Jewish IQ is closer to 5 IQ points above the White mean than 15. But, at this point, we are just adding epicycles.

JF
Ulster Institute

Blogger John Fuerst April 30, 2018 1:01 AM  

I should note that IQ and achievement tests in Israel indicate a 0.5 to 1.0 standard deviation gap between Ashkenazi/European origin Jews and Oriental & North African origin ones. (Migrant generation, test, and sample depending.) Richard has a somewhat dated summary. Of course, I would advise checking the original studies and taking his summary statistic with a grain of salt -- as should be done with everyone.

David, H., & Lynn, R. (2007). Intelligence Differences between European and Oriental Jews in Israel. Journal of Biosocial Science, 39(3), 465-473.

My working estimate is a Ashk ~ 12 point advantage overall non-Ashk Jew in Israel. There is further differentiation between Oriental, North African, and Ethiopian Jews, of course. I base this on what Richard reported and a number of studies missed, but mean it as only a crude estimate.

If the mean Jewish Israeli IQ is about 100 normed on a typical White sample, the mean Ashk Israeli IQ would seem to be about 106.

Blogger Skullo Maniac April 30, 2018 11:38 AM  

I honestly believe you don't hate Jordan Peterson. You simply hate the idea that someone is getting more attention than you.
And that doesn't help our cause at all.
But whatever.

Blogger VD April 30, 2018 1:13 PM  

I honestly believe you don't hate Jordan Peterson. You simply hate the idea that someone is getting more attention than you.

Right, that's why I turn down 95 percent of my media requests. Because I want more attention. That makes sense. Do you ever see me attack Mike, Milo, or Stefan, all of whom get far more attention than I do?

And that doesn't help our cause at all.

There is no us. If you're on Jordan Peterson's side, you're not on mine. Just ask him.

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